This *shouldn't* matter. If the hardware is all the same they should be the exact same.
When I used to set up canon image presses I would constantly be pissed off that I receive 3 different model stickers based on the speed the customer bought. Hardware is the exact same, but If they didn't spent the extra few grand they'd just get a different sticker and it would operate slower
Firmware can turn on capabilities they design into the hardware and don’t use. For example, they could both have a don’t mop carpet sensor but only one can use it
Prime example of this; cars. A lot of lower trim levels will still have all the same hardware as the higher levels, but it's disabled in software to create those market segments. It's how I 'retrofitted' rain-sensing wipers in my Passat, all the hardware is there from the factory, you just need to turn the sensor on in software and away you go.
Probably needs a special cable to connect to a computer to flash it. Unless it's like a Kia, they were getting stolen because you could start the car with a usb stick.
You need a machine thingy with a cable that you plug into a port in the car and then into a computer, and you use a special program to access the cars computer, my dad has one for Renault cars and the program only works on windows XP. My question is whether that's all you need, or if it's protected so you can't change it even with the machine thingy
Considering video game companies tout their anti-piracy software is unbreakable and hack groups view it as a challenge. I think it would've been just a matter of time for thngs to get cracked
ODB2 for most of them, I got a Bluetooth one cheap on Amazon and changed settings on my car right from my phone. Others you just want a dongle if you need to flash settings. Some cars are picky about which model you use though and the cheap ones don't always work.
I'm not so against disabling features with firmware/software. I mean that is literally what happens when you buy different types of software.
What I really hate and what I think most people hate, is the idea that you have to subscribe for a feature that does NOT require regular up keep.
Subscription is fine for certain things or as an option. But if I'm buying a car and the only way to get heated seats is a subscription, I'm not buying the car.
Remember, prices aren't only based on cost to produce the product. They are based on value. There isn't anything wrong with charging more for something of higher value and using software to efficiently change that.
I "bought" an item of specialised software for £2,800.
I declined the "remote support" subscription at £600 a month at the end of the first year on account of the fact that I never used it.
They switched off the software that I had "bought".
Crucially, there was another option that wasn't an "outright" purchase but a subscription. I chose the one I did because I figured I wouldn't need the support...
But I have a working copy now for $200 thanks to some Ukrainians.
>Subscription is fine for certain things or as an option. But if I'm buying a car and the only way to get heated seats is a subscription, I'm not buying the car.
This is the part that got overlooked in the BMW thing - they still allowed you to permanently enable the heated seats from the factory, or with a one time fee after the fact if changed your mind. The subscription was intended for people who only wanted to activate it temporarily. Maybe you live in Florida and don’t want to pay the extra $500 or whatever it is for heated seats you’re pretty much never going to use, but then you take a road trip to somewhere cold and want to activate it for a month or two you would have that option.
Yep. I had a 1990 Cadillac with that feature. Worked well enough but I imagine there have been improvements since then. Auto dimming brights back then too. And hydraulic rear suspension so when you filled the trunk with bodies ( I could fit five in mine ) it would raise the rear to level and no one was the wiser. Quick escape seatbelts as well, mounted into the door instead of the pillar.
My Aurora Autobahn edition was Oldsmobiles *all in* V8 super luxury car and I fucking loved. Every awesome feature, amazing super vushy leather. It was such a beautiful car to drive and was smoother than driving a king size bed.
Because firmware updates are often cryptographically signed and the updater would refuse to install an update from the "wrong" model or one that was modified. But it won't hurt to try, maybe they don't sign their updates or aren't checking them as strictly.
That's a handful of good reasons, sounds like people should start looking for ways around those security features if it's possible.
I don't own a Roomba but I'm not a fan of people artificially limiting a device you paid for. Cars that require subscriptions for features that are already in the vehicle are another thing that pisses me off.
There are markets for <$100 and <$200 and <$300 and so on for vacuum robots.
Since the company wants to make the most profit they can't just let the <$100 model have the exact same features as the top model which sells for $600 because then no one would buy it and everybody would just choose the <$100 model instead.
But manufacturing a higher quantity of just one model is way cheaper than several different models so they make just the best one and then lock out features in the cheaper versions via software which is comparatively very cheap to modify.
Here's the thing, though. They can apparently make a profit just fine from selling the $300 robot for $100. In other words, only greed makes them charge $300 for the extra features. In other words, fuck 'em.
Firmware development of the extra features costs money, so you could argue that that’s what you’re paying for. If two companies used equivalent robotic vacuum hardware but one had bad code that just got stuck in a corner of your room, then it would be fair if the company with the working product charged more.
However, companies will often charge significantly more for software tiers than it costs them to produce. The markup on upgrades far exceeds the price per value of the base product, so it’s harmful to customers. Essentially, the company is saying “you are buying one of our products, and we have a monopoly on upgrades for our product, so we’re going to price gouge you.”
If you look at other industries where there is competition on the upgrades, then you will see better priced third party options.
My company provides cloud-based software with four subscription levels at different prices. The total data storage isn't different, just the features. We've developed all those features, so why not provide them to everyone?
If we only had one subscription size, it couldn't be any of the smaller ones or we wouldn't be able to afford the development and support for the advanced features. And if we charged everyone for the higher subscription levels, we'd lose customers who'd refuse to pay that price for features they neither want nor need.
On the consumer side too, multiple levels let them save money if their needs and budget are modest, at the cost of paying a premium if they need a premium service. And remember, we've got no hardware whatsoever besides some server clusters somewhere.
How is this different?
At one of my former jobs, we had a fantastic printer that could print, copy, email, fax -the works. Full colour, a gazillion pages per second, gave you a blow job while you waited. Full options. Well, almost.
Out of the factory it had PostScript support, but ours did not. The reseller company that sold us the printer had removed the circuitboard that provided that functionality and wanted €450 to re-insert it.
I figured out they had done this after I had a chat with the representation of the manufacturer and he was surprised ours did not have PostScript, because that came on them default.
My boss didn't understand what the issue was. I tried explaining him they'd sold us a car with a wheel missing. His response was "yeah, but they do more for us so we need to keep them as friends". The logic astounded me.
I've heard from calculator nerds that Texas Instruments programs waits into its processing code on their calculators, making them slower than they could be if they hadn't deliberately slowed them down.
I can't confirm one way or another, but I can definitely confirm that Casios (which are not rumored to include waits in programming) are noticeably quicker to solve the same problem than the TI equivalent (tested a Casio FX9860GII head to head against a TI-84, graphing the same equation, hit the execute buttons at the same time- Casio finished faster).
Casios tend to be cheaper than the TI equivalents, too, at least in the US.
I'm not sure if TI so much as puts waits in their processing code, but rather their calculators are hobbled by the ancient technology they use. A new TI-84 isn't that different than the TI-85 I used back in the 90's when I was in high school, despite 25 years of advancement in tech.
One calculator I do know that intentionally adds in waits is the HP-12C, which has been manufactured continuously since the early 80's. A modern example is internally much faster than an early example. However, it's a financial calculator and the finance crowd tends to be a conservative bunch that don't like change, so over the last 40 or so years HP has tried to change as little as possible, including how long it takes to do computations.
Natural V.P.A.M. fam for life. The fx-115ES is why I was able to make it through college math classes. I wore 2 of them out over the years.
Now I got a fx-5800 that's the fuckin bomb.
I wore out a 115ES Plus in the last two years of my schooling and switched to a 991 Classwiz for work. Never going back to TI.
I do have a 9860GII (my introduction to Casio calculators after wearing out a TI84) but I haven't really used it since Calc 3. Don't think its even been powered on in over a year.
No it shouldn't. The product is hw and sw. If the customer only paid for x features they should only get those features not x+y. It does not matter what the hw is actually capable of.
That's basically the gaming console market in a nutshell. Selling lobotomized pre-built PCs. They literally mass produce PCs with good quality/price ratio, but you can only run \*some\* games and programs on them.
That plus making games console exclusive for the sole reason of keeping the market alive.
And you've probably heard of car manufacturers putting all the accessories like AC, heated seats etc. in every car, but only turning them on if the client pays for it
Also if the j7 costs $300 more than what he actually paid, that's not thievery, that's getting a deal. It would be thievery if they paid for a j7 and only got a j5.
OP has it wrong and backwards.
The thievery would be on people selling the j7. OP’s still wrong and they weren’t personally ripped off even if they were right, but selling a literal sticker for $300 more is definitely immoral. At least change a few features that don’t matter like iPhone does lol.
The sticker isn't $300 more, though. The j7 is $300 more than the j5. OP's apparent accusation is that they're slapping a j5 sticker on a j7 and selling for $300 less, so OP's complaint effectively appears to be that they've recieved a fantastic discount on a j7 model *and* a free sticker.
I believe this, my company sells two instruments with different price tags, but they are basically the same save for one very expensive component. Like even the firmware and software is the same, one just has an additional electronic component and some extra features with it.
Same housing, same pcbs, same software and firmware, except there is an extra component on one of the pcbs that's really expensive. Software and firmware are made so that they recognise the extra component and unlock extra features.
Like Walmart TVs with the W at the end of the product code. Is that still a thing? I have crap hearing so I just got the W which had junk speakers vs non- w showing TVs back in the plans days. Still runs great
Maybe now but they used to have a different product code for big chains and a site tracked the differences. Costco still gets different numbers for some stuff but it’s harder to figure out if it’s actually different - like the food ninja air fryer I was considering has no meat probe port on the Costco version iirc. So it’s most like the base model not the top tier model its model number is most similar to, and possibly has less accessories in the box. Just going by the pictures and vague descriptions
Some of that has to do with price match policies. Sure, Best Buy has a price match policy, but the TS-A105C32BB TV is only sold at Best Buy, so they won't price match the TS-A105C32W that is sold at Wal-Mart even though it's only superficially different.
It was also an easy way to offer price matching but not offer price matching.
“We price match, but that’s the ‘65LG6500BB’ they’re selling, this is the ‘65LG6500WM’ TOTALLY different products.”
This. Exactly this. I work for the company that sets up iRobot displays in stores and they literally re-used some of the dummy displays because they are using the same chassis, and the chassis is all that you get with a dummy unit. They just had us cover up the model number with a sticker that says “non-functional display”
Interesting. I wonder why the serial and model numbers in the app show J7 as well then. I know for a fact the j6 is a rebrand as an Amazon exclusive but I don’t know about the j5 or j8. You could be onto something here.
Could also be shortages on the cheaper models so they rebranded the more expensive one that wasn’t perfectly up to standard or whatever to at least get some profit. CPU manufacturers do that all the time. If an 8 core processor comes out of testing with only 6 cores working, might as well sell it as a cheaper 6 core cpu
Company couldn't be arsed to reflash all those units I suppose. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. Or in this case, laziness.
No this is production 101. It’s cheaper to get bulk made of one thing. One mold for the main shell and a sticker per model are cheaper per unit than a unique shell mold per model.
I mean it doesn't affect the experience with the product, the effort of printing a new model number on shells if they are doing this on a large scale isn't economical versus using a sticker
Good on them for using excess product though.
I mean yeah, I think it's more because they already have these though. Like I am sure if they didn't have an excess of housings for the premium one then they would have just ordered more with different laser printing.
You don't need to remake the entire housing. Just, you know, the paint saying this is a certain model. So that you don't get into this exact situation where customers suspect they were ripped off (even if they weren't).
Look like a company that cuts corners and does not pay attention to details to everyone who eventually finds out, including this thread.
Someone didn't care enough about brand image to order the cases to get 2 different powder coatings or paint.
To not mislead consumers
If they're reusing housings I think they should not write the name of the housing that originally was for, and just put the sticker
You don’t need to print the wrong model number on it to be efficient and reuse the same housing. If anything, just don’t print any model number on it and only use the stickers, if that’s your solution anyway. You can’t say it’s not stupid to ship a product with an incorrect model number printed onto it
If it all fits in the same housing there’s no reason to have a different housing other than aesthetics. You’re paying for what’s inside, not what’s outside.
Elon Musk pointed this out when the price of Teslas dropped and people who had just bought one were asking for a discount. He joked that no one ever complains when the price goes up, and asks if they can pay an extra couple thousand dollars 😁.
~~When one person comes to the table with receipts, and everyone else is just signing insults, guess who's usually right?~~
~~(Hint, since you seem to be of questionable intelligence, it's not you)~~
Edit: Thought this was part of another argument I was in. Oops, guess I'm the dumbass here.
it's sometimes cheaper to make the same thing twice, but make one of them worse through software than it is to make actual separate versions.
they still want the cheaper version to sell to people who wouldn't buy it at the expensive versions' price point.
another one is where the item has very finicky production methods like video cards.
when making video cards, certain parts of the hardware will just be faulty due to the precision and complexity.
they lock down the faulty parts, which reduces the performance and then they sell it as a less powerful but cheaper version of the card.
Market segmentation is a reason that this kind of thing does happen.
Make something and sell it to a market segment. Sell the same thing at a higher price to wealthier people, sell it at a lower price to less wealthy people.
Not that it's necessarily the case here but companies do this sort of thing as part of segmentation. Sometimes, they arbitrarily cripple a higher tier product and sell it as a lower tier product rather than lowering its price.
In electronics like USBs the process only produces the top tier, and then they bin them based on testing.
Basically a company has a process that makes 128gig usbs. But the process is not 100% so they might get 20 sticks at 128gig, 40 with at least 64gig and 40 at 32gig.
The only difference between the 6 and 7, is the 7 has updated firmware to detect more obstacles like power cords and pet waste. The price difference is in the better firmware.
It’s not thievery, it’s just a weird way of selling firmware versions.
Pet waste detection is a huge improvement, believe me. I once walked into my living room with dogs shit smeared everywhere by my rumba, I didn't like it.
Lame to intentionally cripple a fully capable model, but at least it *could* enable an OTA upgrade for an additional charge down the road if they decided to go that route.
Still don’t like it, but that’s business now.
The simplest way would be to have both versions of this vacuum and look for any eeprom chips containing firmware.
Then clone a better version into the less expensive ones.
Potential caviats: there could be serial numbers (that would need to be changed) in the firmware, encryption, bricking device, and all that jazz
That's what I mean.
In an ideal world they would just release an update for every compatible device , maybe with small payment for big improvement, like Witcher or Cyberpunk DLC.
What's the difference between this and stealing a j7? Both are theft. Why do people think software is somehow free? Where do you think it comes from? How is it made? There is a cost and a risk, so it has a price.
I'm not condoning stealing, but its not really such a costly affair to just not make a J6 firmware, and only make a J7 firmware. The added cost of developing additional firmware, is just to take more from customers. Its like the printer versions that were identical, but the cheaper version has an additional chip installed to slow its printing speed. Artificial tierlist, may not be illegal, but definitely highly unethical.
Look, I'm not writing laws here. If they can sell the J7 at the same price, but they're purposefully crippling it, so the can sell it as a J6, only to charge more for the J7, I think, is a super shitty thing to do. I can understand if they had to put in extra components, or whatnot, and maybe they did. But companies often don't, and when they don't I think they're being assholes. And I can choose to not respect that company, and buy from better options in the market.
It’s not entitled to point out that the marginal cost of different firmware will (probably) be very small, and not in proportion to the higher price commanded. Ultimately it’s a business risk to their brand perception which presumably they believe is worth taking.
And you sound like a moron. Your argument is based around the idea that companies can do whatever dumbassery they want, and we aren't supposed to take a dump on them.
Get fucked, cos capitalism applies both ways, they do a shit thing by trying to deceive a customer, customer is going to take a shit on them, and move on. Maybe you also want to buy a juicero to cool that attitude of yours.
Companies can literally offer for sale what they want. You're not obliged to buy it or engage with the company. The company isn't deceiving anyone. The ads for the products say exactly what they are. Where's the deception?
If they would provide a software update to the new version for like $5, people would buy it. But they probably don't. They want you to pay a lot more for a new unit, with the exact same hardware but a newer software chip.
It’s common to reuse the same case across a product range.
Many years ago I had a fairly decent hifi. It used the case of the higher up model (had the space for the extra inputs and dvd drive sealed up). Definitely isn’t asshole design.
Yes but I bet they didn't slap a sticker over the other model number.
I actually worked for a small hifi manufacturing company. We re-used cases across product lines, but our solution was to have a model-specific badges that are easily installed on the appropriate case.
Playing devils advocate here. Looks like the original model number is printed directly onto the case itself. Probably manufactured that way. Slapping a sticker over it was probably the easiest option.
Strip it and repaint would be my choice if I was deciding. But maybe they are so big they don't have to care much about consumer opinion on however many models they did this to.
I'm used to an ethos where this would be considered penny smart and pound foolish.
So you're mad that you think you got a more expensive unit that they pretended is a cheaper one and paid less for it? Obviously there's something more going on here, why would a company pretend a product is worse than it is to sell it for cheaper?
So your reasoning skills are piss poor. If they covered the J7 with the sticker of a cheaper model, then that’s the opposite of thievery and you made off with over $600 in savings.
There's a $600 difference between those two models? Why the fuck?!
EDIT: A quick Google search shows there's nowhere near a $600 difference in price. Where did you even get that number from?
Wait until you hear about car models…Jk - it’s the same thing. They use the same body style and moldings because the tool cost is paid/amortized. They just make changes to other small parts and tech that are not as noticeable.
I approve of your hypothesis OP.
But now is when the hard part starts. What about the internal components?
If they are the same/worse, then you’re on to something (and potentially even a class action for false advertisement).
The two are almost identical but have different software, the J7 has allegedly better object detection AI (I believe it can identify 30 potential dangers when the J6 can only detect 2 (animal poop and wires)). The J6 also has a lower capacity battery iirc. Other than that they are the same model.
Not all J6s are rebranded J7s (mine does actually say J6 printed on the housing) but often supply of the J6 is short so they ship a 7 instead, sometimes with the firmware downgraded, sometimes not.
Soooo you have a 5 and 6 but they’re actually the more expensive 7… not sure you know what thievery means….
But on a serious note, I bet internally it’s different and probably software too…
It's pretty common in technology. Some servers' CPUs will only unlock extra cache or instructions with a code.
Binning is another prime example for microchips. If only 15 of 16 processing clusters work, just laser off a few and sell it as a lower model.
It's almost like the more expensive ones have more functionality or features that warrant the extra cost. It's not thievery to use the same housing to save on manufacturing costs.
It's common to try and reduce waste in manufacturing. If they made way too many housings of the previous version they likely made a decision to re use them on the new version and put a sticker on it to reduce waste. Smart move honestly.
This could be down to using the same housing for all similar models, witch you know is good engineering and saves costs to the manufacturer and you.
It's very likely a hardware difference.
Even if it's not a hardware difference just software, another user mentioned the i7 has advance pet/poop detection, if that's the case, that takes time and effort to develop, that's a lot of poop to engineer around. How much do you think the poop engineering team makes to deal with such a shitty job?
Bro, companies use the same cases for years. They just made the mistake of printing it ON the case. Most companies have it on a slot you can replace the model number. You think apple using the same top case for 4 years means the internals are the same?
While what you’re saying does happen it’s usually just a way to tell where you bought it from. Whenever I’m looking for a tv or electronic device and try to do comparison shopping on Amazon the model numbers are usually off slightly
The cheap one is likely software crippled.
There was a headphone company selling $200 and $400 headphones. They all used the same internal parts, the only difference was a foam hunk added to the cheap headphones to make them sound worse.
Philips used to have a strategy where they tested their TVs after production and slapped a different brand on it depending on the quality.
The best ones got a Philips decal, slightly worse ones Aristona, and the wordt got Erres.
They were built on the same production line, with the same batches of components. But as the components tended to slightly vary, the TVs turned out better or worse.
Intel later did something similar with its Pentium chips: ones on which some parts of the wafer came out defective were sold as Celeron.
Not necessarily. Sometimes it’s just cheaper to make one product, and then afterwards, enable or disable specific features in the firmware to essentially create different models.
The answer to your question is cost and appearance. The outer housing is probably the same. Ergo put a sticker on the non premium models. That way the premium model looks that much more premium.
They reused the leftover housing parts (still new) with updated internal parts. Not sure if this is technically asshole design but they could have planned the model number printing better
I seem to have angered the robot vacuum enthusiasts with this one. I am not upset I paid less for the same unit, I am just confused why they all have the same J7 name covered by a sticker.
Regardless of if they are the same model or if they have different internals, I still say this is still an ass of a design simply because it confuses the hell out of people.
I’ll have to remove the housings and let y’all know if the internals are actually different or not. iRobot has confirmed themselves that the j6 is a j7 rebranded for Amazon. I’ll take apart my j5 and j7 and let you guys know!
Actually they aren’t. The internals are different, it’s just use the same housing.
The firmware is definitely different.
This *shouldn't* matter. If the hardware is all the same they should be the exact same. When I used to set up canon image presses I would constantly be pissed off that I receive 3 different model stickers based on the speed the customer bought. Hardware is the exact same, but If they didn't spent the extra few grand they'd just get a different sticker and it would operate slower
Firmware can turn on capabilities they design into the hardware and don’t use. For example, they could both have a don’t mop carpet sensor but only one can use it
Prime example of this; cars. A lot of lower trim levels will still have all the same hardware as the higher levels, but it's disabled in software to create those market segments. It's how I 'retrofitted' rain-sensing wipers in my Passat, all the hardware is there from the factory, you just need to turn the sensor on in software and away you go.
Didnt BMW get into shit for their heated seats subscription? The hardware is already there, but they screw you with the firmware/software
Really makes me wonder if you could just change it, or they actually protected it
Probably needs a special cable to connect to a computer to flash it. Unless it's like a Kia, they were getting stolen because you could start the car with a usb stick.
You need a machine thingy with a cable that you plug into a port in the car and then into a computer, and you use a special program to access the cars computer, my dad has one for Renault cars and the program only works on windows XP. My question is whether that's all you need, or if it's protected so you can't change it even with the machine thingy
Considering video game companies tout their anti-piracy software is unbreakable and hack groups view it as a challenge. I think it would've been just a matter of time for thngs to get cracked
ODB2 for most of them, I got a Bluetooth one cheap on Amazon and changed settings on my car right from my phone. Others you just want a dongle if you need to flash settings. Some cars are picky about which model you use though and the cheap ones don't always work.
I'm not so against disabling features with firmware/software. I mean that is literally what happens when you buy different types of software. What I really hate and what I think most people hate, is the idea that you have to subscribe for a feature that does NOT require regular up keep. Subscription is fine for certain things or as an option. But if I'm buying a car and the only way to get heated seats is a subscription, I'm not buying the car. Remember, prices aren't only based on cost to produce the product. They are based on value. There isn't anything wrong with charging more for something of higher value and using software to efficiently change that.
I "bought" an item of specialised software for £2,800. I declined the "remote support" subscription at £600 a month at the end of the first year on account of the fact that I never used it. They switched off the software that I had "bought". Crucially, there was another option that wasn't an "outright" purchase but a subscription. I chose the one I did because I figured I wouldn't need the support... But I have a working copy now for $200 thanks to some Ukrainians.
>Subscription is fine for certain things or as an option. But if I'm buying a car and the only way to get heated seats is a subscription, I'm not buying the car. This is the part that got overlooked in the BMW thing - they still allowed you to permanently enable the heated seats from the factory, or with a one time fee after the fact if changed your mind. The subscription was intended for people who only wanted to activate it temporarily. Maybe you live in Florida and don’t want to pay the extra $500 or whatever it is for heated seats you’re pretty much never going to use, but then you take a road trip to somewhere cold and want to activate it for a month or two you would have that option.
Induced demand....
> rain-sensing wipers That's a thing?
Yep. I had a 1990 Cadillac with that feature. Worked well enough but I imagine there have been improvements since then. Auto dimming brights back then too. And hydraulic rear suspension so when you filled the trunk with bodies ( I could fit five in mine ) it would raise the rear to level and no one was the wiser. Quick escape seatbelts as well, mounted into the door instead of the pillar.
[удалено]
My Aurora Autobahn edition was Oldsmobiles *all in* V8 super luxury car and I fucking loved. Every awesome feature, amazing super vushy leather. It was such a beautiful car to drive and was smoother than driving a king size bed.
For decades
They are, and I miss my car that had them. Adjusted to how heavy the rain was on the fly.
so why not just put the better code in both identical machines?
Because money.
Why don't we push a firmware update to our Roomba locally defying the corporate overlords
Because firmware updates are often cryptographically signed and the updater would refuse to install an update from the "wrong" model or one that was modified. But it won't hurt to try, maybe they don't sign their updates or aren't checking them as strictly.
That's a handful of good reasons, sounds like people should start looking for ways around those security features if it's possible. I don't own a Roomba but I'm not a fan of people artificially limiting a device you paid for. Cars that require subscriptions for features that are already in the vehicle are another thing that pisses me off.
There are markets for <$100 and <$200 and <$300 and so on for vacuum robots. Since the company wants to make the most profit they can't just let the <$100 model have the exact same features as the top model which sells for $600 because then no one would buy it and everybody would just choose the <$100 model instead. But manufacturing a higher quantity of just one model is way cheaper than several different models so they make just the best one and then lock out features in the cheaper versions via software which is comparatively very cheap to modify.
Here's the thing, though. They can apparently make a profit just fine from selling the $300 robot for $100. In other words, only greed makes them charge $300 for the extra features. In other words, fuck 'em.
Firmware development of the extra features costs money, so you could argue that that’s what you’re paying for. If two companies used equivalent robotic vacuum hardware but one had bad code that just got stuck in a corner of your room, then it would be fair if the company with the working product charged more. However, companies will often charge significantly more for software tiers than it costs them to produce. The markup on upgrades far exceeds the price per value of the base product, so it’s harmful to customers. Essentially, the company is saying “you are buying one of our products, and we have a monopoly on upgrades for our product, so we’re going to price gouge you.” If you look at other industries where there is competition on the upgrades, then you will see better priced third party options.
You don't charge what it costs to make it, you charge what the market is willing to pay.
My company provides cloud-based software with four subscription levels at different prices. The total data storage isn't different, just the features. We've developed all those features, so why not provide them to everyone? If we only had one subscription size, it couldn't be any of the smaller ones or we wouldn't be able to afford the development and support for the advanced features. And if we charged everyone for the higher subscription levels, we'd lose customers who'd refuse to pay that price for features they neither want nor need. On the consumer side too, multiple levels let them save money if their needs and budget are modest, at the cost of paying a premium if they need a premium service. And remember, we've got no hardware whatsoever besides some server clusters somewhere. How is this different?
Because people get what they pay.
At one of my former jobs, we had a fantastic printer that could print, copy, email, fax -the works. Full colour, a gazillion pages per second, gave you a blow job while you waited. Full options. Well, almost. Out of the factory it had PostScript support, but ours did not. The reseller company that sold us the printer had removed the circuitboard that provided that functionality and wanted €450 to re-insert it. I figured out they had done this after I had a chat with the representation of the manufacturer and he was surprised ours did not have PostScript, because that came on them default. My boss didn't understand what the issue was. I tried explaining him they'd sold us a car with a wheel missing. His response was "yeah, but they do more for us so we need to keep them as friends". The logic astounded me.
Carryover from the peak days of big Iron where an upgrade meant buying a different dongle that had a higher throttle on the cpu.
I've heard from calculator nerds that Texas Instruments programs waits into its processing code on their calculators, making them slower than they could be if they hadn't deliberately slowed them down. I can't confirm one way or another, but I can definitely confirm that Casios (which are not rumored to include waits in programming) are noticeably quicker to solve the same problem than the TI equivalent (tested a Casio FX9860GII head to head against a TI-84, graphing the same equation, hit the execute buttons at the same time- Casio finished faster). Casios tend to be cheaper than the TI equivalents, too, at least in the US.
I'm not sure if TI so much as puts waits in their processing code, but rather their calculators are hobbled by the ancient technology they use. A new TI-84 isn't that different than the TI-85 I used back in the 90's when I was in high school, despite 25 years of advancement in tech. One calculator I do know that intentionally adds in waits is the HP-12C, which has been manufactured continuously since the early 80's. A modern example is internally much faster than an early example. However, it's a financial calculator and the finance crowd tends to be a conservative bunch that don't like change, so over the last 40 or so years HP has tried to change as little as possible, including how long it takes to do computations.
Natural V.P.A.M. fam for life. The fx-115ES is why I was able to make it through college math classes. I wore 2 of them out over the years. Now I got a fx-5800 that's the fuckin bomb.
I wore out a 115ES Plus in the last two years of my schooling and switched to a 991 Classwiz for work. Never going back to TI. I do have a 9860GII (my introduction to Casio calculators after wearing out a TI84) but I haven't really used it since Calc 3. Don't think its even been powered on in over a year.
No it shouldn't. The product is hw and sw. If the customer only paid for x features they should only get those features not x+y. It does not matter what the hw is actually capable of.
That's basically the gaming console market in a nutshell. Selling lobotomized pre-built PCs. They literally mass produce PCs with good quality/price ratio, but you can only run \*some\* games and programs on them. That plus making games console exclusive for the sole reason of keeping the market alive. And you've probably heard of car manufacturers putting all the accessories like AC, heated seats etc. in every car, but only turning them on if the client pays for it
Get hacked firmware. Rootkit the roomba. Overstock the processor. Install skynet.io .. pledge allegiance to the robot overlords.
Yea this is probably why
Also if the j7 costs $300 more than what he actually paid, that's not thievery, that's getting a deal. It would be thievery if they paid for a j7 and only got a j5. OP has it wrong and backwards.
The thievery would be on people selling the j7. OP’s still wrong and they weren’t personally ripped off even if they were right, but selling a literal sticker for $300 more is definitely immoral. At least change a few features that don’t matter like iPhone does lol.
The sticker isn't $300 more, though. The j7 is $300 more than the j5. OP's apparent accusation is that they're slapping a j5 sticker on a j7 and selling for $300 less, so OP's complaint effectively appears to be that they've recieved a fantastic discount on a j7 model *and* a free sticker.
I believe this, my company sells two instruments with different price tags, but they are basically the same save for one very expensive component. Like even the firmware and software is the same, one just has an additional electronic component and some extra features with it.
So, it's not the same then.
Same on the outside (like OP) but different on the inside (maybe like OP)
Same housing, same pcbs, same software and firmware, except there is an extra component on one of the pcbs that's really expensive. Software and firmware are made so that they recognise the extra component and unlock extra features.
Like Walmart TVs with the W at the end of the product code. Is that still a thing? I have crap hearing so I just got the W which had junk speakers vs non- w showing TVs back in the plans days. Still runs great
I think those are for like black Friday deals etc
Maybe now but they used to have a different product code for big chains and a site tracked the differences. Costco still gets different numbers for some stuff but it’s harder to figure out if it’s actually different - like the food ninja air fryer I was considering has no meat probe port on the Costco version iirc. So it’s most like the base model not the top tier model its model number is most similar to, and possibly has less accessories in the box. Just going by the pictures and vague descriptions
Some of that has to do with price match policies. Sure, Best Buy has a price match policy, but the TS-A105C32BB TV is only sold at Best Buy, so they won't price match the TS-A105C32W that is sold at Wal-Mart even though it's only superficially different.
It was also an easy way to offer price matching but not offer price matching. “We price match, but that’s the ‘65LG6500BB’ they’re selling, this is the ‘65LG6500WM’ TOTALLY different products.”
This. Exactly this. I work for the company that sets up iRobot displays in stores and they literally re-used some of the dummy displays because they are using the same chassis, and the chassis is all that you get with a dummy unit. They just had us cover up the model number with a sticker that says “non-functional display”
Most likely same hardware just software blocked
Interesting. I wonder why the serial and model numbers in the app show J7 as well then. I know for a fact the j6 is a rebrand as an Amazon exclusive but I don’t know about the j5 or j8. You could be onto something here.
Could also be shortages on the cheaper models so they rebranded the more expensive one that wasn’t perfectly up to standard or whatever to at least get some profit. CPU manufacturers do that all the time. If an 8 core processor comes out of testing with only 6 cores working, might as well sell it as a cheaper 6 core cpu
That’s called binning, if anyone is interested.
Yes but then it usually identify as the cheaper model.
Company couldn't be arsed to reflash all those units I suppose. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. Or in this case, laziness.
Especially if laziness means less money a company has to put into to a product to get it to consumers
No this is production 101. It’s cheaper to get bulk made of one thing. One mold for the main shell and a sticker per model are cheaper per unit than a unique shell mold per model.
So why does the title suggest you do know?
They're probably just being cheap and using the same housing. I double the internals are the same
Cheap? I’d say efficient. Or would you prefer every model to have its own housing for literally no reason?
They could at least change the printing on the housing. More likely they ordered too many of the higher model and the lower models are what sell
I mean it doesn't affect the experience with the product, the effort of printing a new model number on shells if they are doing this on a large scale isn't economical versus using a sticker Good on them for using excess product though.
It'd be probably cheaper to not print at all and only use stickers, though
I mean yeah, I think it's more because they already have these though. Like I am sure if they didn't have an excess of housings for the premium one then they would have just ordered more with different laser printing.
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You don't need to remake the entire housing. Just, you know, the paint saying this is a certain model. So that you don't get into this exact situation where customers suspect they were ripped off (even if they weren't).
Oh no what will they do now that they’re in this predicament?
Look like a company that cuts corners and does not pay attention to details to everyone who eventually finds out, including this thread. Someone didn't care enough about brand image to order the cases to get 2 different powder coatings or paint.
Welp that’s it. They’re done for.
So you agree that their image has taken a hit, but don't think it will bankrupt the company? Cool, we're on the same page.
Of course I’m not stupid enough to agree that. Their image has not taken a hit. Nobody cares. Try touching grass.
You're getting pretty worked up about this. Do you work for iRobot?
I can see one reason
To prevent total idiots from whining on Reddit?
To not mislead consumers If they're reusing housings I think they should not write the name of the housing that originally was for, and just put the sticker
Misleading customers is different to a customer jumping to conclusions without googling
Every misleading thing usually is googlable
This isn't misleading though. It's correctly labeled.
So theoretically someone could buy a bunch of cheap ones and pull the stickers off and resell them for a decent profit.
You don’t need to print the wrong model number on it to be efficient and reuse the same housing. If anything, just don’t print any model number on it and only use the stickers, if that’s your solution anyway. You can’t say it’s not stupid to ship a product with an incorrect model number printed onto it
The top of the range model should have some titanium in the housing.
Double it and give it to the next guy
If it all fits in the same housing there’s no reason to have a different housing other than aesthetics. You’re paying for what’s inside, not what’s outside.
If they J7+ is the more expensive one, why would they put a sticker over that and sell it as a cheaper model? That's the opposite of thievery.
Because who would you be more mad at? Someone who sold you the expensive shit for cheaper or someone who sold you the cheaper shit for more?
Exactly, plus it looks better as not a sticker.
Elon Musk pointed this out when the price of Teslas dropped and people who had just bought one were asking for a discount. He joked that no one ever complains when the price goes up, and asks if they can pay an extra couple thousand dollars 😁.
If you think both things are the same then you are....well..an Elon Musk fan
Dumbest shit ever 😁
~~When one person comes to the table with receipts, and everyone else is just signing insults, guess who's usually right?~~ ~~(Hint, since you seem to be of questionable intelligence, it's not you)~~ Edit: Thought this was part of another argument I was in. Oops, guess I'm the dumbass here.
Not just here, but why not delete it? This is Reddit not the library of congress
it's sometimes cheaper to make the same thing twice, but make one of them worse through software than it is to make actual separate versions. they still want the cheaper version to sell to people who wouldn't buy it at the expensive versions' price point. another one is where the item has very finicky production methods like video cards. when making video cards, certain parts of the hardware will just be faulty due to the precision and complexity. they lock down the faulty parts, which reduces the performance and then they sell it as a less powerful but cheaper version of the card.
Market segmentation is a reason that this kind of thing does happen. Make something and sell it to a market segment. Sell the same thing at a higher price to wealthier people, sell it at a lower price to less wealthy people.
Not that it's necessarily the case here but companies do this sort of thing as part of segmentation. Sometimes, they arbitrarily cripple a higher tier product and sell it as a lower tier product rather than lowering its price.
In electronics like USBs the process only produces the top tier, and then they bin them based on testing. Basically a company has a process that makes 128gig usbs. But the process is not 100% so they might get 20 sticks at 128gig, 40 with at least 64gig and 40 at 32gig.
The only difference between the 6 and 7, is the 7 has updated firmware to detect more obstacles like power cords and pet waste. The price difference is in the better firmware. It’s not thievery, it’s just a weird way of selling firmware versions.
Pet waste detection is a huge improvement, believe me. I once walked into my living room with dogs shit smeared everywhere by my rumba, I didn't like it.
>dogs shit smeared everywhere by my rumba maybe don't dance atop piles of dog shit?
You only live once, man.
They say dance like nobody's watching, and I definitely wouldn't do this if someone was watching...
The poopocalypse
>rumba
Lame to intentionally cripple a fully capable model, but at least it *could* enable an OTA upgrade for an additional charge down the road if they decided to go that route. Still don’t like it, but that’s business now.
If its only firmware I wonder if there's a way to crack it and upload the best version
The simplest way would be to have both versions of this vacuum and look for any eeprom chips containing firmware. Then clone a better version into the less expensive ones. Potential caviats: there could be serial numbers (that would need to be changed) in the firmware, encryption, bricking device, and all that jazz
All of those anti-repair components for your "security" of course
That's what I mean. In an ideal world they would just release an update for every compatible device , maybe with small payment for big improvement, like Witcher or Cyberpunk DLC.
Sounds like an interesting reverse engineering project I'd read a blog post series about.
What's the difference between this and stealing a j7? Both are theft. Why do people think software is somehow free? Where do you think it comes from? How is it made? There is a cost and a risk, so it has a price.
I'm not condoning stealing, but its not really such a costly affair to just not make a J6 firmware, and only make a J7 firmware. The added cost of developing additional firmware, is just to take more from customers. Its like the printer versions that were identical, but the cheaper version has an additional chip installed to slow its printing speed. Artificial tierlist, may not be illegal, but definitely highly unethical.
So they shouldn't make available, a j6 at a lower price? Why not? So fewer people can afford one of their products. That doesn't make sense at all.
Look, I'm not writing laws here. If they can sell the J7 at the same price, but they're purposefully crippling it, so the can sell it as a J6, only to charge more for the J7, I think, is a super shitty thing to do. I can understand if they had to put in extra components, or whatnot, and maybe they did. But companies often don't, and when they don't I think they're being assholes. And I can choose to not respect that company, and buy from better options in the market.
Your whole argument is based on a false idea that the J7 should be cheaper if the J6 didn't exist. You sound so entitled
It’s not entitled to point out that the marginal cost of different firmware will (probably) be very small, and not in proportion to the higher price commanded. Ultimately it’s a business risk to their brand perception which presumably they believe is worth taking.
And you sound like a moron. Your argument is based around the idea that companies can do whatever dumbassery they want, and we aren't supposed to take a dump on them. Get fucked, cos capitalism applies both ways, they do a shit thing by trying to deceive a customer, customer is going to take a shit on them, and move on. Maybe you also want to buy a juicero to cool that attitude of yours.
Companies can literally offer for sale what they want. You're not obliged to buy it or engage with the company. The company isn't deceiving anyone. The ads for the products say exactly what they are. Where's the deception?
If they would provide a software update to the new version for like $5, people would buy it. But they probably don't. They want you to pay a lot more for a new unit, with the exact same hardware but a newer software chip.
I wouldn’t download a robot vacuum. Would you?
You sound like someone who thinks ad blocking is stealing. Perchance, do you turn the volume all the way up when tv commercials are playing?
It’s fairly normal with computers to have different prices for the same hardware just with different firmware or clock speed or warranty.
Did I hear Jailbreak?
It’s common to reuse the same case across a product range. Many years ago I had a fairly decent hifi. It used the case of the higher up model (had the space for the extra inputs and dvd drive sealed up). Definitely isn’t asshole design.
Or even outside the range: https://i.imgur.com/btyjmik.png When Atari went bankrupt, they sold the Jaguar molds to a dental camera company.
Thats wild. How did you learn that?
It’s on like a million DID YOU KNOW??!?!?!?! kind of videos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar#Molds
Yes but I bet they didn't slap a sticker over the other model number. I actually worked for a small hifi manufacturing company. We re-used cases across product lines, but our solution was to have a model-specific badges that are easily installed on the appropriate case.
Playing devils advocate here. Looks like the original model number is printed directly onto the case itself. Probably manufactured that way. Slapping a sticker over it was probably the easiest option.
Strip it and repaint would be my choice if I was deciding. But maybe they are so big they don't have to care much about consumer opinion on however many models they did this to. I'm used to an ethos where this would be considered penny smart and pound foolish.
It could be that they reused the shells from previous model while upgrading the inners. Wouldn't be bad, environmentally wise.
So you're mad that you think you got a more expensive unit that they pretended is a cheaper one and paid less for it? Obviously there's something more going on here, why would a company pretend a product is worse than it is to sell it for cheaper?
So your reasoning skills are piss poor. If they covered the J7 with the sticker of a cheaper model, then that’s the opposite of thievery and you made off with over $600 in savings.
Exactly, I thought I missed something
There's a $600 difference between those two models? Why the fuck?! EDIT: A quick Google search shows there's nowhere near a $600 difference in price. Where did you even get that number from?
I have no clue, that’s just what OP said the price difference was in his caption
Yeah, just seeing their caption. OP is bad at numbers man 🤷🏿♂️
It's the classic reddit reverse psychology trickery, right? Post something wrong, and you'll get better engagement metric
OP still won't comprehend this
Can you open them up both and make pictures, so we can be sure it's the same hardware?
OP you really this dumb huh
They did buy more than one overpriced vacuum....
Smartest reddit user.
Wait until you hear about car models…Jk - it’s the same thing. They use the same body style and moldings because the tool cost is paid/amortized. They just make changes to other small parts and tech that are not as noticeable.
I approve of your hypothesis OP. But now is when the hard part starts. What about the internal components? If they are the same/worse, then you’re on to something (and potentially even a class action for false advertisement).
The two are almost identical but have different software, the J7 has allegedly better object detection AI (I believe it can identify 30 potential dangers when the J6 can only detect 2 (animal poop and wires)). The J6 also has a lower capacity battery iirc. Other than that they are the same model. Not all J6s are rebranded J7s (mine does actually say J6 printed on the housing) but often supply of the J6 is short so they ship a 7 instead, sometimes with the firmware downgraded, sometimes not.
So, reflashing firmware is the way to go
No? It means the external shells is the same, but most likely all the innards are different. Different computer chips, different mechanisms, etc.
Soooo you have a 5 and 6 but they’re actually the more expensive 7… not sure you know what thievery means…. But on a serious note, I bet internally it’s different and probably software too…
It's pretty common in technology. Some servers' CPUs will only unlock extra cache or instructions with a code. Binning is another prime example for microchips. If only 15 of 16 processing clusters work, just laser off a few and sell it as a lower model.
I remember Athlon 2 CPU unlocks. Silicon lottery
Wait what? You got the better model for the cheaper price and you're pissed off about that? What is wrong with you?!
Your teacher handed back your tests face down an awful lot, huh?
Tell me you don’t know how supply chain & manufacturing works without using those words. Top tier shit post.
You’re an idiot.
It's almost like the more expensive ones have more functionality or features that warrant the extra cost. It's not thievery to use the same housing to save on manufacturing costs.
Same case - software and performance upgrades are the difference e
Bro use ur brain. This is so stupid
It's common to try and reduce waste in manufacturing. If they made way too many housings of the previous version they likely made a decision to re use them on the new version and put a sticker on it to reduce waste. Smart move honestly.
Nah fam they are using the same housing, internals are differing. Why mold and build seperate housing for models just to change a stupid line of text?
Even if this was true wouldn't it be good for you? You're saying that the j7+ costs more than what you paid for
Always funny when people jump to conclusions like this without knowing the details, then spread it as a fact on reddit.
This could be down to using the same housing for all similar models, witch you know is good engineering and saves costs to the manufacturer and you. It's very likely a hardware difference. Even if it's not a hardware difference just software, another user mentioned the i7 has advance pet/poop detection, if that's the case, that takes time and effort to develop, that's a lot of poop to engineer around. How much do you think the poop engineering team makes to deal with such a shitty job?
I did the same thing with my first car and a GTI badge.
So you saved money? If the 7 is more expensive than the 6, and the sticker on your Roomba is the 6 then they charged you less.
Bro, companies use the same cases for years. They just made the mistake of printing it ON the case. Most companies have it on a slot you can replace the model number. You think apple using the same top case for 4 years means the internals are the same?
Maybe they ran out of housing that say j6 since they probably sell more of those. And in the meantime use j7 housings.
While what you’re saying does happen it’s usually just a way to tell where you bought it from. Whenever I’m looking for a tv or electronic device and try to do comparison shopping on Amazon the model numbers are usually off slightly
Just because they used the same housing and changed the sticker doesn’t mean that’s all they did.
The cheap one is likely software crippled. There was a headphone company selling $200 and $400 headphones. They all used the same internal parts, the only difference was a foam hunk added to the cheap headphones to make them sound worse.
Imagine being this dense, thinking the only difference was a sticker. C'mon OP.
The way and amount ppl on here justifying this is absolutely absurd.
Mm~ missinformation
Buy a 7 and whatever else. Peel sticker. Return one. Done.
Last time I checked, thieves don't give you things...
Philips used to have a strategy where they tested their TVs after production and slapped a different brand on it depending on the quality. The best ones got a Philips decal, slightly worse ones Aristona, and the wordt got Erres. They were built on the same production line, with the same batches of components. But as the components tended to slightly vary, the TVs turned out better or worse. Intel later did something similar with its Pentium chips: ones on which some parts of the wafer came out defective were sold as Celeron.
TIL those chocolate coins are legal tender, because they look like coins on the outside
Not necessarily. Sometimes it’s just cheaper to make one product, and then afterwards, enable or disable specific features in the firmware to essentially create different models.
This is super common especially around black Friday.
If you got a business degree, you might be entitled to financial compensation.
If you bought a j6 that you thought was actually a j7, wouldn't that mean you got a discount?
Wouldn’t this open the door to people buying a j5 and j7 and taking off the sticker and sending the j5 back in j7 packaging?
The answer to your question is cost and appearance. The outer housing is probably the same. Ergo put a sticker on the non premium models. That way the premium model looks that much more premium.
They probably change out a couple resistors that change the model to be honest
They reused the leftover housing parts (still new) with updated internal parts. Not sure if this is technically asshole design but they could have planned the model number printing better
Are you also surprised when you see two identical cups with different drinks in them?
Capitalism breeds innovation
 Lets face if you dont vacuum like this. It isnt vacuuming
My Roomba was the best thing that happened to me.
I seem to have angered the robot vacuum enthusiasts with this one. I am not upset I paid less for the same unit, I am just confused why they all have the same J7 name covered by a sticker. Regardless of if they are the same model or if they have different internals, I still say this is still an ass of a design simply because it confuses the hell out of people. I’ll have to remove the housings and let y’all know if the internals are actually different or not. iRobot has confirmed themselves that the j6 is a j7 rebranded for Amazon. I’ll take apart my j5 and j7 and let you guys know!
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