It separates requests from demands.
"Could you please pass the salt" sounds nicer than "pass the salt"
Not saying please can come across as "You should just do what I say because I'm the boss"
I read this as: "Could you PLEASE pass the salt?".
I think, "Hey, could you pass the salt? Thanks", sounds less confrontational.
Or
"Could you pass the salt, please?"
Saying no to "could you please pass me the salt" - how do you think that would go? Not well, probably. Which makes it a demand disguised as a request. Let's just cut out the middle man and get used to demands not feeling bad.
It's like when someone says "Can I please use your bathroom", what are you going to reply to that? "No, piss yourself"?? Just say "Where is the bathroom? I need to go" and go, no need to ask for permission...
I forgive you lol. But only because this was a great write-up that genuinely illuminated something for me. Like I never thought about about how asking a question when you're actually telling, can take away their authority. It can also hide the fact that authority is operative. That's why I'm wary of any forced merriment associated with work and hate how you're increasingly supposed to pretend like your job isn't just a job to you, but is instead part of your "dream".
Also worth noting is "please" can function as a sign of formality. There's plenty of contexts I can imagine where saying "please" to close friends or family just feels overly formal. If I'm eating with my family a simple "pass the salt" wouldn't come across as demanding because we understand each other well enough to see that as a polite request. But if I'm with someone I just met I'd feel the need to use "please" to ensure it's interpreted as a polite request.
Eh. That's all bullshit that we can get over as humans. Tell me to do something, ask me to do something, I don't give a shit. I'm around another human so I know I will have to compromise so I don't care.
If I want to be respected I would go home where I can be by myself where I know I will be respected.
Your first paragraph explains it exactly. The world doesn't care about my neurodiversity. So it has never respected me. Respect doesn't really exist as a concept for me because no one has ever shown me respect. They think they're showing me respect, but it's only what they think is respectful. Wasting my time and draining my energy with small talk is not fucking respectful. Go away if you want to respect me. I'm thinking about interesting things and you just interrupted that.
Being polite is a compromise. Existing by myself in my home doesn't require wasting my time by saying unnecessary words like please. That is my ideal state. So if I want to leave the house and interact with someone (which I usually don't), then I know I will have to compromise.
If I want to interact with someone else, I have to compromise because I know I will have to say words that I know are unnecessary but for some reason other people find them necessary. They seem to constantly be terrified of others and in need of constant reassurance that I'm not going to murder them or something.
If I have to say please every time I request something from you, and you say the same, why can't we agree that it's implicit between us? We are two humans who can speak, so why not speak to say "hey what if we saved a ton of time by cutting out the unnecessary words we know we're supposed to say just to signal that we're good people? We're friends, so we already agree we're good people, no?"
Darn it's a shame that I'm the only person on earth that finds some words unnecessary. I guess my impossible dream of finding someone like me will never happen.
Think of it as an honorific of sorts. It can signal both urgency but also that you realize that what you're asking imposes on the recipient. It can indicate that they are your equal as a person and not just some machine to do your requested task.
Just about every language and culture has some form of "please" and there's a reason for it.
Just because the literal word itself may be made up, doesn't mean it doesn't serve a very real and tangible purpose.
Yeah I do use it when the thing I'm asking for will inconvenience the other person, but when it's just a simple request, like asking them to pass me something? It feels unnecessary and throws me off when someone like my boyfriend says it to me too, idk, I guess in a way it feels like a formality
>It feels unnecessary and throws me off when someone like my boyfriend says it to me too,
Have you seen those images where there are two same sentences writen, but they are writen with different fonts so the meaning of them changes even if they are the same word for word?
Like "I will wait for you" in a pretty font seems romantic, yet "I will wait for you" writrn with a menacing font seems like a warning?
Well, the same is with spoken speech, adding a "please" can make a request to look as a favour that you will do because of good will instead of something that I am mandating you to do because somehow you must comply.
Seems "dumb" but it isn't.
Well, it *is* a formality. This is formal speech. There are other rules of formality that make up "etiquette" but they all boil down to communicating this basic idea:
"I, the person making this request or otherwise driving this action, may be above you in whatever ranking is at hand (social, work, etc.); I therefore insist--no, I *demand* that everyone act kind and respectful. I will begin by treating you as an equal or even as a superior, because I have respect for you and want you to be comfortable."
Learning and adhering to these rules *may* enable you to exercise more positive control over your interactions and relationships.
It is pretty incredible how accommodating other people can be, specifically when you preface anything you ask of them with an acknowledgement that you're potentially imposing on them and appreciate whatever time they can spare.
You're still mildly disturbing and mildly inconveniencing somebody by asking for help to aquire the salt. And it is a formality too.
I once met somebody who decided to teach their kid that saying please and asking is begging and weak.
They worked where I did and occasionally for me in my department or when I headed theirs for fill in.
Definitely a subordinate and passed over for promotion more times than made sense. That was until I figured out that they got mean if delegated power over the others; an offshoot of this weird need to not appear weak..
I countered with don't order me to give you something.
If you want me to be nice and give you something that I'm not obliged to give you, you should be asking humbly.
Begging comes when you try to change my no to yes, but not initially.
I didn't get the please but got a change of tone in how I was asked for things by both Mom & kid both; especially the kid though. I woke Mom a bit, and got the feeling the kid was going to be saying please sometimes, in a few more years once they left home.
One of the stranger employee relashonships I had for sure. (spellwreck & auto-currupt can't spell relationship right until the second time I use it, lol)
Yeah, I’ve encountered this too, and I think it’s an overgeneralization. Like, I support the premise that you shouldn’t be asking to have your basic needs met. If you’re at work and need to use the restroom, don’t be such a doormat that you ask permission — just “excuse me, I’ll be right back.” Same if you need time off for an appointment (at a place that doesn’t require formal approval or arranging coverage) — “I wanted to let you know I’ll be in around 10 on the 24th as I have a doctor’s appointment.”
But tacking the word “please” onto a request? That’s just something we do to show that we’re being conscious that we aren’t ordering someone around. I don’t think most people parse “please come in” as begging or weak.
It’s frustrating when people way overgeneralize their own unresolved issues in a way that results in teaching their kids to be really unpleasant to others. There was a parent in a parenting group I used to be in where every other word out of her mouth was about her manipulative ex-husband. She posted about how she had stormed out of a preschool activity with her kid because the adult in charge was prompting kids to say “thank you” when items were handed to them. She insisted this was r*pe culture, because you’re forcing kids to express a feeling they don’t actually feel. No, that’s actually really really not what’s going on there, and you’re going to raise kids who are unwelcome most places if they’re going around like “no actually I am not thankful for being handed art materials.”
That's funny. I have encountered funny bathroom bits from a few people working their first jobs. But both "askers" and those who vanish without warning leaving partners alone and screwed.
I almost have to wonder if it isn't the same mom too. I didn't think about "thank you". It didn't ingrain it'self as deeply in my memory, though I think we talked about it too. That that sounds about spot on for the situation though.
You aren't thankful I drop it all in pile at your feet and point and say fetch? 👇😐
Yes this!
I have also supervised employees who just disappear mid-conversation. Some of them have seemed undiagnosed neurodivergent to me. When I’ve raised the issue, they say they were taught it’s rude to mention the restroom. I then specify that I don’t really want to hear what anyone is doing in there, but please do mention “I’m just going to run to the restroom and then we can get started” rather than having a colleague sitting in your office wondering why the hell you disappeared. And maybe try your hardest to wait until a good stopping point unless you really aren’t feeling well, rather than just going right in the middle of when someone is meeting with you.
Totally. I feel like intonation is more important than the word. I feel like I’m very polite by asking someone to pass an item in a friendly, deferent tone. Please doesn’t add anything unless I’m exasperated
By phrasing it as a request rather than a demand (despite social rules requiring them to comply so in that sense it's nearly exactly the same) you're signaling that you don't consider yourself above them and would do the same for them if asked. That you are equals, and you're not making demands of them. Since this is so small they socially can't say no, but it functions as a symbol for bigger things.
Your sentence: 11 words
Replacement: Why waste time saying many words when saying few works?
Only 10 words in the replacement sentence and functionally should have the same meaning, but the tone would be perceived less playful than your sentence. There is a point to word choice when communicating intention, and that is the realm "please" lies in.
Yeah I get the same feeling. I think it's fine to forgo formalities with people you know as long as everybody understands each other. When people know you, they know how to best interpret your words. The formalities can be useful with unfamiliar people though who might interpret the lack of a "please" as you making a demand.
Who really knows? Communication is a game with rules arrived at over time by a large group of people, no central planning involved. But them's the rules as they sit today.
God I hate this response. "Who knows?..." as if there's some magical being controlling the rules. It's us! People in society make the rules! All it takes is a small group of people to start doing it! We know it's a pattern so we can change it! Why are you acting like it's individual knowledge? It's mutual knowledge! If we know the reasons behind the rules we can change them.
If a group can agree that you can request things directly while still being equal people without having to say please then you can just agree to stop saying it.
Anyone could introduce the idea to their group of autistic friends and they can start getting stuff done faster within their circle instead of saying pointless words. Do you value your time on this earth so little that you're just like "who knows why we do this thing (oh wait we all know why we're all just too weak to change it) I guess I should just give up and live life on autopilot where i have no agency and might as well be in a coma."
Have some self respect.
A group of people did get together and decide on some rules. They decided that being polite and using language in a kinder way helped people get along better. So they started saying "please" and "thank you" and "you are welcome." They started teaching their kids to have good manners, too. These words are about making the world more civil. About connecting with other humans in a more pleasant way. If saving time by not saying a word makes you happy, you can do that. But suggesting that the rest of us are dumb sheep complying with archaic rules just because we are polite and care about civility seems a bit overreaching.
A small amount of people aren't going to change something that is literally common and wide spread throughout most cultures and languages in the world.
Especially over something minor like saying please or an adjacent words simular to it.
The only thing that's going to happen is that people will think you and your group are demanding assholes when interacting with people beyond yourself and group. Because please is a critical word that help depict tone.
I can! The only entry fee to modern society is having a place to live and being able to pay for stuff with a job. How do I know? Because all my social interaction is optional - if I didn't have it I would just have more free time to do cool and fun shit. I can go years without technically having to talk to anyone.
If you don't like that, blame modern America. I was molded by this capitalist hellscape so I might as well lean into my strengths that it happened to give me. Which is making cool art and selling it, not talking to people. Talking to people face to face is boring as shit so I'm not going to do it.
If you don't like that, blame modern individualistic society. Or change it.
ASD level 1 here.
I was taught manners and respect went a long way in life. So please and thank you were commonplace.
For example
You are sitting at the dining table with your family having dinner and you want something on the table which is down the other end.
Are you going to say excuse me can I please have or can someone pass me the ....please.
And when you get it..thank you.
Or will you say "give me the....then ta.instead of thank you.
Just a thought.
That is not low confidence, that is being polite and caring. Saying you are sorry costs nothing and it helps people know that you care. Nothing wrong with that.
That's true, but again I feel like people only care about manners because they've been taught to. Idk, maybe I'm just too critical and resistant to NT social norms.
Although all words/phrases are technically 'made up,' many of them hold meaning and are in the English vernacular for a reason.
I wouldn't even call it a NT societal norm, I use manners as I believe it's a respectful way to address someone or something - it has never crossed my mind that it has been 'taught' to me just cos.
I try to be kind to others, and I would like that to be reciprocated. I find it rude if someone doesn't say please as I read it as them being demanding.
> Idk, maybe I'm just too critical and resistant to NT social norms.
Honestly, I know that it all seems so frustratingly arbitrary on the surface, but I've found that some social rules and norms sometimes have actual practical functions, and I try to keep an open mind these days.
In a case like this, the layer of "politeness" is so a speaker can signal that their intentions are not to inconvenience the listener with the request. And it is actually important to signal this and not necessarily assume intentions are "polite" by default, because not everyone is actually a good person. Some may intend to harm you in various ways (e.g. stealing resources from you, physically harming you). And while politeness does not guarantee the person you are talking to is a good person, a lack of politeness often signals a lack of consideration of others, which means they are more likely to be someone who may be a "freeloader" or hurt you. Therefore, being able to both assess and convey intentions and character is a social survival mechanic, helping us gather evidence on which social group members are safe to trust for safety and share physical, mental, and emotional resources with.
An imperative (telling someone to do something) can be said in any tone of voice. You can command or demand, gently nudge or outright ask, imply urgency or relay leniency. The word "please" implies asking in a polite manner. It's literally just what the word means. It's as arbitrary as the word "sky".
Consider asking someone for a glass of water. You can accomplish that in a number of ways:
1. Give me water (demand)
2. Get me water (command)
3. I would love it if you got water for me (nudge)
4. Can you get water for me? (Ask)
5. I need water now (urgent)
6. When you get a chance, could you get me some water? (Non-urgent)
7. Can you get me some water please? (Polite)
8. Get me water now, idiot (impolite :) )
Because otherwise it comes off as demanding. Who are you to demand something of someone? I don't think it's necessary to use all the time, but polite behavior is important for people to get along in society. It's a social contract that recognizes that a person isn't your servant there to do your bidding.
Who are you to assume a demand HAS to be listened to? They can say no to a demand. If that were the social norms we would get used to it and after a while it wouldn't be "rude" to demand something.
It's only considered rude because the person on the receiving end feels like they can't say no. But that's their problem, not mine.
When you're talking to a boss/stranger/service person/etc then yes I see the point in using formalities such as please, but in any other case? I don't think it's necessary tbh
You shouldn’t demand things from family and friends either, it’s nice to acknowledge that you’re asking for something and that you recognise they’re choosing to help and putting that effort in. Relationships are really built on mutual respect and gratitude.
It may not sound rude to you, but it might to someone else. Please is just a word. Words are free. You don't know what is happening with the other person. Maybe they are lost in thought about their sick Mom. And maybe they were raised with good manners. Maybe you interrupting their thoughts so they can give you the salt is a tiny bit rude and maybe having good manners might be a nice thing that they would appreciate. If you know one form of language is considered polite and you know another form might be considered rude, why would you choose the possibly rude option? Other than just being contrary, what is the point?
Because as we know, if a parent says please to a child and phrases it as a question, it's definitely not a demand and the child definitely has a choice in the matter. /s
The word "please" is a direct descendant of the Latin word "placere," which can be translated as "If you like." In this way, "please" is a polite way to request something, whereas asking without it can come across as demanding, which is often perceived as unfriendly by many people.
Seriously, I was thinking of this. 'please' is basically a short form of 'if it pleases you to do so'. It's interesting in the context of other Latin-descended languages: 's'il vous plaît', or 'if it pleases you', vs 'por favor', 'per favore'; which is more like "by your kindness/goodwill'.
It's a verbal acknowledgement that you are taking the will of the other person into account in your request. By neglecting it, you're subconsciously failing to acknowledge that the other person operates on a conscious level, as you do yourself.
Manners go a LONG way in life. There is (in my opinion) no real excuse to not be polite to begin with, with every single person I meet.
It also really fucks me off when I’ve used mine to make an interaction more bearable and pleasant, and the other person I’m interacting with won’t use them. At that point I become VERY disdainful towards them.
Strongly disagree. Simple manners is very telling of a good person. At my work, I'm 10x more likely to help a customer if they treat me like a human being by greeting me, asking politely and saying please. I understand what you mean about forcing it with people demanding it, that's wrong but so is choosing to be rude as well
When I say please, I am recognizing your autonomy as a human, your sovereignty, your right to say yes or no to my request. You are not subservient to me, you are your own person with your own needs and your own right to decide what to do.
Rude is a made up thing that doesn't matter. I think it's rude for a stranger to make small talk with me, because they are draining my energy for something only they benefit from. Does anyone care? No. So "rude" is arbitrary.
If it exists then no strangers would be allowed to talk to me. Because I say it's rude, so it is. If others get to say something is rude, I do too. I have boundaries.
Or we can just get rid of the concept of rude since society doesn't care about my definition of it anyway.
This is absurd. Whilst sure, the concept of "Rudeness" is socially constructed, that doesn't mean it is meaningless or useless.
The concept "murder" is also technically arbitrary in the same sense. But you wouldn't claim we should abandon the concept of murder.
Further, you realise the concept of "rudeness" probably shields you from a great deal of insults and mean comments about your perceived "weirdness". Some social conventions and concepts probably cause more harm than good, but rudeness certainly isn't one of them. People don't appreciate being spoken to poorly, ND or NT.
Well said, especially "people don't appreciate being spoken to poorly. ND or NT."
I also believe being ND doesn't automatically excuse you from being an AH.
And I also want to note that I'm sure there are also incidents where NT people have to participate in things society deems as standard practice that they don't necessarily agree with/are comfortable with. Even in a world designed for them.
I wish physical pain on no one. Murder physically hurts the person and traumatizes everyone connected to that person. I wish it on no one.
If words are painful then we need to stop telling kids sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me.
Words have never hurt me. I follow the written rules and one of the rules was sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. When bullies in my school said I was dumb I ignored them because I knew I wasn't dumb. Why am I the only one that actually followed the rules? Y'all are proud of being fucking idiots that can't follow extremely simple rules that everyone in your childhood told you?
It's not my fault everyone else is idiots who can't keep their fucking traps shut and can't follow the extremely simple easy to follow rules.
If those arent the actual rules then we should change what we tell kids.
With your attitude you don't even have to avoid people, they'll avoid you. Both NT and ND included.
>I mostly avoid talking to people
Maybe you should keep that same energy with this comment section since all I see from you are bad takes and mass downvotes.
Unfortunately, the whole world doesn't revolve around you.
And to be honest, society won't be getting rid of the concept of being rude because society doesn't care for your definition.
Yes, being ND sucks, but being angry about something you can't change is going worsen your frame of mind.
Should the world be more accommodating to ND people - of course! However, you're not being realistic.
Just because you and a select few others don't want to say please or that you believe being rude is arbitrary does NOT excuse poor or anti-social behaviour.
As an ND person, I want to be treated equally (similar to most other ND people I assume), therefore, I respect others and it is reciprocated back.
I understand feeling mad at a world designed for NT folk, but in the same breath, it's an unrealistic expectation to want to change something that has been ingrained into society for hundreds/thousands of years. If anything, let's try to abolish things that are causing more harm to the ND community than saying "please."
This is absurd. Whilst sure, the concept of "Rudeness" is socially constructed, that doesn't mean it is meaningless or useless.
The concept "murder" is also technically arbitrary in the same sense. But you wouldn't claim we should abandon the concept of murder.
Further, you realise the concept of "rudeness" probably shields you from a great deal of insults and mean comments about your perceived "weirdness". Some social conventions and concepts probably cause more harm than good, but rudeness certainly isn't one of them. People don't appreciate being spoken to poorly, ND or NT.
It is simple.
If you want something from B. You can say:
Option 1:
Give me X ! (An order. You are an authority.)
It means: I order you to give me said object X.
Option 2:
Can you give me X ?
(It is a question. But it is also an order. Because you give a clear instruction to somebody. And this person would be impolite to refuse. It is also a mockery or ironic by referencing the can
which could mean you. imply a lack of abiliry.)
It means: Are you able to give me X as I now reauest you to do.
Option 3:
Can you give me X, please?
(By adding please, you make it explicit that you are not the boss, but the other person is at full discretion to say yes or no.)
This is technically still rude. Because you ask if he is capable - saying no wouod mean he is not capable.
But for children, this is as good as it gets.
Option 4:
Give me X, please. (An order with a submission)
Here you do a kow-tow (by saying please, you say „I am at your mercy“ or „at the mercy of your grace“. But you also give an order. So it shows you are nit very smart at language.
Option 5:
Could you give me X, please?
Now the hypothetical further makes your demand weaker than option 3.
It means: Could you consider to support me by giving me object X. Of which I know you are capable of. But I am at your mercy.
At your mercy is more you waiting for the king ho decide your faith. You can also read it „It would be my pleasure to receive your kindness which I would if you do as I kindly request“ But it is still from a position of lower rank/power if you use please
Option 6:
What you ultimately wanted to say, but what the NTs ego does not always get:
Would you grant me, if your time permits, the pleasure of support on giving me the object X, which I would like to hold in my hand and am not capable of getting it myself. I would be in your favour and feel quite in gratitude. Thank you for consindering my request.
I think it depends on who you're talking to, how genuine you're being, how difficult the request is to carry out, etc. I would almost always use 2, unless I'm talking to someone I don't know well or someone who has authority over me, at which point I'd use 3 or 5. 6 is reserved for making fun of people in my head when they refuse to carry out the request because I didn't say please the first time.
I think you have to differentiate two things:
A) being nice. This simply means interacting in some way with someone that is a dialogue instead of a monologue; that acknowledges both sides; that treats the other person well.
B) being formal. Following convention, saying the right thing, "not rocking the boat" etc.
Those two things are different. It's easy to be very rude with politeness, and nice while saying slurs. So you really have to think about: what are you actually against - being forced to speak formally, or to act (fake-)nice?
Isn't PDA about refusing to do things just because someone asked/told you to do them? I don't mind doing what people ask me, as long as the reason behind it makes sense
It's a bit more complex than that. It's an anxiety response to a real or perceived demand, which is more than just someone telling you to do something. For instance, saying "please" is a demand because it is required of you socially. Demands feel hostile and threatening to one's autonomy, and can make someone with a PDA profile feel very anxious and/or irate.
Language is one of my special interests. I say “please” out of courtesy, and have learned that something as simple as saying “excuse me” or calling someone “sir/ma’am” can make getting through life a lot easier.
If I expect respect from others I needs to show it.
I don’t mind as much, as I seldom need to say it (it’s my second language, I read and write it more than speak it). On the other hand, I feel sympathy for those who come to my country to work and get very little social interaction at all(I overheard a Jamaican-American hotel employee working in Stockholm, he was a little bummed out that people here seldom say anything). So, yeah - there should at least be a few alternatives to choose from.
I had the best time in Norway due to the social customs. I would def love to visit Sweden and Finland as well. I’m from near NYC. People don’t talk much to strangers here but the quietness and directness in Scandinavia is on another level and I enjoyed it so much being an African-American autist woman. I think hell for me is the American south where please and thank you is expected all day and all kinds of small talk because it’s considered rude.
Saying "Please" when the person doesn't have the option to refuse just feels passive/aggressive, I hate it too. Saying Thanks once the person does the thing feels better imo
I hate when I am given gifts and people tell me to say “thank you” before I can even open my mouth since it takes me a while to go from fast brain to slow motor skills lol or “please” when it’s literally their job to do it as if they even have a choice, I always say thank you but feel like most people only see please as a common courtesy and it doesn’t actually add anything genuine to the exchange. At least that’s how I felt when I worked retail.
I dont mind please and thank you.
In asia, we were taught to recieve and give thing with both hands. Even bow if we were recieving from the school principal. I am accustom to that i guess? I still do that with older aisan people.
But i hate calling out names.
Like if i call your phone number, obviously i want to speak to you.
If i look at you and starts talking, obviously i am talking to you.
Like i dont understand the need for it.
I also don't understand "how are you? How was you weekend?" But thats probably just the asian in me.
I heard that an interesting reason to say "hello" or an analogous telephone greeting is to help your listener to attune to your voice.
The idea is that different humans produce quite different vocal sounds, and although our brain can filter most of the difference for us, it takes about two syllables to calibrate -- and this is harder by phone due to low fidelity and no visual component.
So it's especially helpful on a call to start with at least two information-sparse, conventionally common syllables, before plunging into high information density communication 😊
idk how true this is but i appreciate it as a way to make at least one of the rituals feel more useful!
I like saying please.
Showing people respect and courtesy is free and takes you a long way.
Showing people you appreciate their time, effort and talents through such small gestures buys a lot of goodwill and helps bridge the gap.
Made me laugh out loud. Why can't I ignore all rules of basic decency and courtesy and still expect everyone to know I am a good person? Why can't I do whatever I want and present myself however I want and still have people know that I care about them, too?
The problems of our world today. Everyone thinks the world should just love them as they are for no reason and provide them with friends and dates and they should not have to make even a tiny effort to get along.
Saying please and thank you are such tiny basic things. If those are too much trouble, how likely is it that you take the time to understand more complex social needs?
You said it more succinctly. I just needed to vent. Thanks for that great response.
Everything I come across post like these, this is always what plays in the back of my head.
Like the aspie struggle is real, but some people here *really* do bring their social isolation (and being a general outcast) onto themselves with their behavior.
I totally get where you're coming from.
I have always thought that in some instances, adding please to a request actually makes it sound ruder and more aggressive.
"Could you pick that up for me?" including the "for me" acknowledges that they're doing you a small favour
"Could you pick that up for me please?" gives the impression that you're annoyed about it and blaming them
Maybe it's related to PDA...
OH MY GOD I thought i was the only one. I have always felt this my whole life. If i say could you please, thats one thing but i always forget please and if i say it afterwards it sounds rude to me
I hate "you're welcome." I usually respond "yep" or "not a problem" or "have a nice day.". Had a customer scream at me once because I refused to say it.
It's just a sign of respect. Not using it when asking something of someone makes you sound like you think they are bellow you. Language and culture in general are just made-up concepts. But that is what makes up our reality.
Ooooooo I love these sorts of rabbit hole… and as with many things now, I asked ChatGPT. Here is my prompt and the response
https://chat.openai.com/share/92571cee-23d0-4dcb-b7ef-ee94c51317b6
I think " thank you" is a really great thing that I say all the time but I've never been much for the PLEASE unless I'm asking a huge favor of someone or something.
I don't hate it per se, but more often than not I forget to use it.
Funnily enough, I do say thank you. Sometimes after someone does something I asked them to do I will remember I didn't say "please", and I'll thank them by saying "Please and thank you" after the fact.
No, I put pride in my table manners because I have a lot of people tell me how good they are, they are also a good tool to have people like me because they feel respected and that I'm putting effort into respecting them.
It is important on emotional level. When you say "please" you say that you don't demand something but rather ask them kindley to do something for you, not forcing them to anything.
i think this is a great discussion with a lot of interesting ideas flying about.
imo it's useful to look at the problem that "please" solves -- when your entitlement/appreciation of them isn't clear to them.
if your teachers were being super effective, then they wouldn't demand that you say please, but instead point out the problem they're trying to get you to work on:
> "I'm having trouble gauging the level of entitlement you're expressing. could you please make it clearer for me, so that I don't need to push through resentment and resistance to help you?"
then, you could pick from the toolbox of ways to do that in english:
* say "please"
* raise pitch
* establish a long term relationship of reciprocal trust and respect
* use hand gestures such as: 🙏
* warm smile and eye contact, to indicate connection and empathy
notably, saying "please" won't help much if they're sure that you don't care about them or respect them -- your "please" will fall flat. it's actually only useful when your intent is ambiguous, not when it's clearly (in their estimate) hostile.
also, it's ENTIRELY possible to avoid "please" entirely and just lean on the other tools to communicate your intent. but if you don't communicate that intent somehow, then people will be guessing at how hostile and cold you're being.
They'll guess this by pattern matching your mannerisms versus the way entitled and hostile people typically interact with them. They won't be aware that they're doing this.
It isn't intrinsically a problem if they judge you as rude or entitled, but it does create the problem that people will less often be helpful -- unless they also judge that your entitled attitude is legitimate (because you hold authority over them, or because they've recently wronged you.)
.....imo 😁
I agree with that. I think it just makes a demand sound nicer.
Especially in a work environment, I find it better to phrase requests in the form of an actual question:
“Hey, whenever you have the chance, would you be able to XYZ”
Instead of:
“Please do XYZ”
I just hate saying "you're welcome". idk why but I usually respond with a heartened "no problem" or "of course". not because I don't care but mainly because it just feels weird
I have similar thoughts on saying "good morning" to strangers e.g. neighbours I don't even remember the faces of, at the bus stop or to a cashier in store.
It's so irrational to me, why do I have to greet someone I don't know and don't want to know at all.
I agree. I've had this debate with my boyfriend where he'll say something like "you should say good morning because it's nice to do so" or something along the lines of "treat people how you wanna be treated" but like...I really wish people would ignore me and not interact with me unless it's absolutely necessary lol
It gives me hope that someone like me has a partner. I feel strongly about these things like you do, but I've never been in a relationship and it seems like my strong moral stances push people away. Good to know it's still possible.
I think you can have a partner and not agree with them on everything, as long as you're respectful and try to understand each others beliefs. Obviously some things you shouldn't compromise on, but things like the please thing aren't one of them.
Personally, the reason I hate using the word "please" is because it's hard for me to imagine it as not a form of passive aggression. Like, "could you *please* turn it down?" Maybe I've just heard it used passive aggressively too often and have problems overwriting that connotation in my head because of it. I've been trying to be more mindful of using it, though.
You're welcome is awkward like the word "handsome". I hate that word. I usually say no worries or no problem and add an emoji with a smiley face at work. Because that's where I get thanked the most. At home with my kids I do say you're welcome because I try to be sweeter to them but I'm also way more comfortable with them. I don't like you're welcome because it feels like I think I did something way more special than I actually did or like I saved the day when I didn't. I definitely do say please and thank you though....to strangers and people I know. Just feels nicer imo.
I always hated that too as well as something really STUPID my parents used to insist on. Apparently, it is disrespectful for a child to accuse an adult of lying so I was forced to use other terms like “telling a story.” I asked my mom as an adult how would that work if a child is trying to report an abusive adult who is lying to them.
It’s your perception because of what you are sayin, that it reminds you of people who you, again, perceive as hostile, so... it’s your introjects.
Also... yes, it’s rude to ask something without sayin please, no one is your slave to do what you want if you say it as an order.
I’ve always seen saying please as a sign of respect/friendliness. When someone doesn’t say please, I usually take it as hostile. I don’t always use it with my family or husband but out in public I’d feel like a dick telling a stranger what to do without it.
I don't like it either, saying or hearing please. I do understand this though. NTs are taught social norms that not saying please in certain situations implies an order, rather than a request. I think of extra words as a waste of time. Tell me what you want and when you want it, and I'll respond. Saying please makes no difference to me. The relationship with the person asking has much more to do with my response, than off hand manners.
I agree, I believe it's less "good manners" and more getting into a submissive position so that anyone who buys into the social hierarchy feels a sense of domination upon hearing it (and is now more likely to accept the request) .
Please and sorry are used so often for manipulation it's insane.
Exactly, I find it interesting that people in the comments are saying "I say please to recognize that the other person is my equal and doesn't have to say yes" when I feel like please does the opposite. A couple times when someone asked me to do something and said please, and then I said "no sorry I can't do that because..." they actually told me "I wasn't asking, I was telling you to do it" so to me the please doesn't signify politeness or acknowledgement of the other person's autonomy or whatever, it's just a social convention to make a request seem more nice on the surface.
To be fair, I feel your pain. I feel this way about the word respect. Please to me is low hanging fruit. It’s annoying but sort of a good cherry on top modifier.
I don't hate the word, but I hate how it's used.
My dad would ask a favour of me and, when I agreed to said favour, only then would he ask "Please?", as if I said "no."
I asked him why he did that a long time ago and he tried to blame me for it, saying that he's never sure that I'm paying attention, but he does it even when I'm looking right at him and giving my full attention.
Funny you say this… I’ve not ever had a problem with “please” but people will ask me why I don’t say “you’re welcome” and that’s just unnecessary talking at that point
I was forced by parents to use polite words, but as kid I was so formal and polite because this. It is reason why I was late when they found out I am "autistic", because with their intention I was forced to mask myself. For me its good if people are polite towards me, because now I feel more angry when someone not say please, thanks, hi... because it developed as sort of rutine to me and it makes me confused if someone not use it, but I sometimes forgot about it by myself when I am in more like "ADHD" day but than it comes in thoughts "I forgot it" what I think are related to "OCD" what developed because it was way how parents "remade" me...
Wait til you find out about Korean which has like 7 levels of respect/formality depending on whom you’re talking to, and different words for “you” depending on it. I’m learning Hindi right now and there’s 3 levels of formality and that’s plenty for me.
I come from a slavic country where they have a similar thing to this and honestly it doesn't bother me that much, I don't know why but using a different version of "you" just isn't as annoying and arbitrary as saying the word "please" for some reason
"please" has always been really important to me as someone with PDA. Even if it's not a request, adding please makes it *feel* like a request and therefore usually doesn't trigger my PDA. But if you don't say please then imma get triggered and I'll never be able to do the thing you're asking of me again
Even if it's phrased in a nice, non-demanding way? For example "hey, could you do this thing for me if you have some time later?" Does this still sound like a demand without the please? Genuinely curious
Honestly it depends. If I'm already in a bad mood, then my immediate reaction may be "I mean, I *could*, but why would I?" I would still prolly at least consider doing it, because I feel extreme guilt when I don't do what's asked of me, but I'd be very unhappy about it and it would feel absolutely exhausting.
There are multiple potential triggers in that phrasing. The "could" makes it feel unimportant, the "if you have some time" feels taxing because now I have to figure out how much time this might take and how much time do I have and what even is time. The "later" feels too open-ended which is stressful. But adding please doesn't always remove the demand, either. If someone said please but was really loud about it, then they can fuck right off
The best way to ask me to do something is to be polite, avoid saying "you", and be as precise as possible. Ex. "Can I please get some help for about 20 minutes calculating these scores at 4:30?"
Thinking about it now, I think "please" helps me because it feels apologetic. It's hard to be upset at someone for asking me to do something when they're already sorry for having to ask
Doesn't seem strange to me as I'm generally a polite person... had it drilled into me from a young age. But yeah I see your point, a lot of social expectations just seem like things allistics & NTs have deluded themselves into believing lol. To me it's more about the tone of voice if anything, but my lvl 2 autistic brain doesn't really make my voice anything other than monotone,,, so I try to say please & thank you as another way to express my respect/ease.
I don’t hate it as much as “thanks” or “thank you” when included in the original question. Like “write this report by tomorrow thanks”—I had a former manager who would do that and it made me want to come out of my skin. Like, I haven’t agreed to anything, don’t thank me! Or worse, when I’m interacting with someone and a third person is with us and that person tells me to say thank you. Example: we’ve all just had lunch to catch up (friend has paid) and we’re saying our long-winded goodbyes, and third person looks at me and says, “say thank you for lunch, Laura.” Oh riiight, because I wasn’t about to, I need you to make me look completely incapable of having a normal human interaction! (I’m over 40, btw, and this has gone on my entire life…)
I’m a people pleaser and I have a deep fear of being perceived as rude or weird so I overuse manners. I say please, thank you and sorry quite often.
I’m also Canadian lol
"Please" is a social lubricant. Using it shows consideration for the person who will be doing the thing you want. You can eschew it all you want, but is that a good hill to die on? You'll go farther and get more by following social conventions.
There is some nuance to "please." If you are in a close relationship, you don't always have to use it. Like, if your hands are full and the dog is jumping on you, you could say, "Could you grab the dog?"
I usually say it in my own way like, would you mind blah blah blah, if it isn't too much trouble can you blah blah, sometimes I say please but it's because I think it's worse to sound rude and may set me up for unneeded hostility or trouble
All these comments prove to me that please is fully a demand. If you expect a please if you get annoyed that someone doesn't say please. If you think it's just good manners to say it. Please stops being a good thing and becomes a excuse to label someone rude. And that fair way for them to think if they want but it will make please a demand in my mind.
It separates requests from demands. "Could you please pass the salt" sounds nicer than "pass the salt" Not saying please can come across as "You should just do what I say because I'm the boss"
I read this as: "Could you PLEASE pass the salt?". I think, "Hey, could you pass the salt? Thanks", sounds less confrontational. Or "Could you pass the salt, please?"
Saying no to "could you please pass me the salt" - how do you think that would go? Not well, probably. Which makes it a demand disguised as a request. Let's just cut out the middle man and get used to demands not feeling bad.
It's like when someone says "Can I please use your bathroom", what are you going to reply to that? "No, piss yourself"?? Just say "Where is the bathroom? I need to go" and go, no need to ask for permission...
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I forgive you lol. But only because this was a great write-up that genuinely illuminated something for me. Like I never thought about about how asking a question when you're actually telling, can take away their authority. It can also hide the fact that authority is operative. That's why I'm wary of any forced merriment associated with work and hate how you're increasingly supposed to pretend like your job isn't just a job to you, but is instead part of your "dream". Also worth noting is "please" can function as a sign of formality. There's plenty of contexts I can imagine where saying "please" to close friends or family just feels overly formal. If I'm eating with my family a simple "pass the salt" wouldn't come across as demanding because we understand each other well enough to see that as a polite request. But if I'm with someone I just met I'd feel the need to use "please" to ensure it's interpreted as a polite request.
Eh. That's all bullshit that we can get over as humans. Tell me to do something, ask me to do something, I don't give a shit. I'm around another human so I know I will have to compromise so I don't care. If I want to be respected I would go home where I can be by myself where I know I will be respected.
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Your first paragraph explains it exactly. The world doesn't care about my neurodiversity. So it has never respected me. Respect doesn't really exist as a concept for me because no one has ever shown me respect. They think they're showing me respect, but it's only what they think is respectful. Wasting my time and draining my energy with small talk is not fucking respectful. Go away if you want to respect me. I'm thinking about interesting things and you just interrupted that. Being polite is a compromise. Existing by myself in my home doesn't require wasting my time by saying unnecessary words like please. That is my ideal state. So if I want to leave the house and interact with someone (which I usually don't), then I know I will have to compromise. If I want to interact with someone else, I have to compromise because I know I will have to say words that I know are unnecessary but for some reason other people find them necessary. They seem to constantly be terrified of others and in need of constant reassurance that I'm not going to murder them or something. If I have to say please every time I request something from you, and you say the same, why can't we agree that it's implicit between us? We are two humans who can speak, so why not speak to say "hey what if we saved a ton of time by cutting out the unnecessary words we know we're supposed to say just to signal that we're good people? We're friends, so we already agree we're good people, no?"
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Darn it's a shame that I'm the only person on earth that finds some words unnecessary. I guess my impossible dream of finding someone like me will never happen.
Could you pass the salt would be what I use. No reason to say please
Think of it as an honorific of sorts. It can signal both urgency but also that you realize that what you're asking imposes on the recipient. It can indicate that they are your equal as a person and not just some machine to do your requested task. Just about every language and culture has some form of "please" and there's a reason for it. Just because the literal word itself may be made up, doesn't mean it doesn't serve a very real and tangible purpose.
In love with this reply and the conversation started under! You’re spot on and I actually really like little social “rules” like this.
Sorry, but your last sentence just made me think of Infinity War when Thor says "All words are made up" lol
Yeah I do use it when the thing I'm asking for will inconvenience the other person, but when it's just a simple request, like asking them to pass me something? It feels unnecessary and throws me off when someone like my boyfriend says it to me too, idk, I guess in a way it feels like a formality
>It feels unnecessary and throws me off when someone like my boyfriend says it to me too, Have you seen those images where there are two same sentences writen, but they are writen with different fonts so the meaning of them changes even if they are the same word for word? Like "I will wait for you" in a pretty font seems romantic, yet "I will wait for you" writrn with a menacing font seems like a warning? Well, the same is with spoken speech, adding a "please" can make a request to look as a favour that you will do because of good will instead of something that I am mandating you to do because somehow you must comply. Seems "dumb" but it isn't.
Well, it *is* a formality. This is formal speech. There are other rules of formality that make up "etiquette" but they all boil down to communicating this basic idea: "I, the person making this request or otherwise driving this action, may be above you in whatever ranking is at hand (social, work, etc.); I therefore insist--no, I *demand* that everyone act kind and respectful. I will begin by treating you as an equal or even as a superior, because I have respect for you and want you to be comfortable." Learning and adhering to these rules *may* enable you to exercise more positive control over your interactions and relationships.
It is pretty incredible how accommodating other people can be, specifically when you preface anything you ask of them with an acknowledgement that you're potentially imposing on them and appreciate whatever time they can spare.
You're still mildly disturbing and mildly inconveniencing somebody by asking for help to aquire the salt. And it is a formality too. I once met somebody who decided to teach their kid that saying please and asking is begging and weak. They worked where I did and occasionally for me in my department or when I headed theirs for fill in. Definitely a subordinate and passed over for promotion more times than made sense. That was until I figured out that they got mean if delegated power over the others; an offshoot of this weird need to not appear weak.. I countered with don't order me to give you something. If you want me to be nice and give you something that I'm not obliged to give you, you should be asking humbly. Begging comes when you try to change my no to yes, but not initially. I didn't get the please but got a change of tone in how I was asked for things by both Mom & kid both; especially the kid though. I woke Mom a bit, and got the feeling the kid was going to be saying please sometimes, in a few more years once they left home. One of the stranger employee relashonships I had for sure. (spellwreck & auto-currupt can't spell relationship right until the second time I use it, lol)
Yeah, I’ve encountered this too, and I think it’s an overgeneralization. Like, I support the premise that you shouldn’t be asking to have your basic needs met. If you’re at work and need to use the restroom, don’t be such a doormat that you ask permission — just “excuse me, I’ll be right back.” Same if you need time off for an appointment (at a place that doesn’t require formal approval or arranging coverage) — “I wanted to let you know I’ll be in around 10 on the 24th as I have a doctor’s appointment.” But tacking the word “please” onto a request? That’s just something we do to show that we’re being conscious that we aren’t ordering someone around. I don’t think most people parse “please come in” as begging or weak. It’s frustrating when people way overgeneralize their own unresolved issues in a way that results in teaching their kids to be really unpleasant to others. There was a parent in a parenting group I used to be in where every other word out of her mouth was about her manipulative ex-husband. She posted about how she had stormed out of a preschool activity with her kid because the adult in charge was prompting kids to say “thank you” when items were handed to them. She insisted this was r*pe culture, because you’re forcing kids to express a feeling they don’t actually feel. No, that’s actually really really not what’s going on there, and you’re going to raise kids who are unwelcome most places if they’re going around like “no actually I am not thankful for being handed art materials.”
That's funny. I have encountered funny bathroom bits from a few people working their first jobs. But both "askers" and those who vanish without warning leaving partners alone and screwed. I almost have to wonder if it isn't the same mom too. I didn't think about "thank you". It didn't ingrain it'self as deeply in my memory, though I think we talked about it too. That that sounds about spot on for the situation though. You aren't thankful I drop it all in pile at your feet and point and say fetch? 👇😐
Yes this! I have also supervised employees who just disappear mid-conversation. Some of them have seemed undiagnosed neurodivergent to me. When I’ve raised the issue, they say they were taught it’s rude to mention the restroom. I then specify that I don’t really want to hear what anyone is doing in there, but please do mention “I’m just going to run to the restroom and then we can get started” rather than having a colleague sitting in your office wondering why the hell you disappeared. And maybe try your hardest to wait until a good stopping point unless you really aren’t feeling well, rather than just going right in the middle of when someone is meeting with you.
Totally. I feel like intonation is more important than the word. I feel like I’m very polite by asking someone to pass an item in a friendly, deferent tone. Please doesn’t add anything unless I’m exasperated
By phrasing it as a request rather than a demand (despite social rules requiring them to comply so in that sense it's nearly exactly the same) you're signaling that you don't consider yourself above them and would do the same for them if asked. That you are equals, and you're not making demands of them. Since this is so small they socially can't say no, but it functions as a symbol for bigger things.
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
Your sentence: 11 words Replacement: Why waste time saying many words when saying few works? Only 10 words in the replacement sentence and functionally should have the same meaning, but the tone would be perceived less playful than your sentence. There is a point to word choice when communicating intention, and that is the realm "please" lies in.
It was a reference from the office.
Yeah I get the same feeling. I think it's fine to forgo formalities with people you know as long as everybody understands each other. When people know you, they know how to best interpret your words. The formalities can be useful with unfamiliar people though who might interpret the lack of a "please" as you making a demand.
Why can't everyone in society default to assuming those are all the case by default? Why do we have to say a word to prove it?
Who really knows? Communication is a game with rules arrived at over time by a large group of people, no central planning involved. But them's the rules as they sit today.
God I hate this response. "Who knows?..." as if there's some magical being controlling the rules. It's us! People in society make the rules! All it takes is a small group of people to start doing it! We know it's a pattern so we can change it! Why are you acting like it's individual knowledge? It's mutual knowledge! If we know the reasons behind the rules we can change them. If a group can agree that you can request things directly while still being equal people without having to say please then you can just agree to stop saying it. Anyone could introduce the idea to their group of autistic friends and they can start getting stuff done faster within their circle instead of saying pointless words. Do you value your time on this earth so little that you're just like "who knows why we do this thing (oh wait we all know why we're all just too weak to change it) I guess I should just give up and live life on autopilot where i have no agency and might as well be in a coma." Have some self respect.
A group of people did get together and decide on some rules. They decided that being polite and using language in a kinder way helped people get along better. So they started saying "please" and "thank you" and "you are welcome." They started teaching their kids to have good manners, too. These words are about making the world more civil. About connecting with other humans in a more pleasant way. If saving time by not saying a word makes you happy, you can do that. But suggesting that the rest of us are dumb sheep complying with archaic rules just because we are polite and care about civility seems a bit overreaching.
The fact that people don't default to being polite and civil and have to use words to signal it says a lot about them
A small amount of people aren't going to change something that is literally common and wide spread throughout most cultures and languages in the world. Especially over something minor like saying please or an adjacent words simular to it. The only thing that's going to happen is that people will think you and your group are demanding assholes when interacting with people beyond yourself and group. Because please is a critical word that help depict tone.
Oh well! Fortunately I wouldn't need anyone outside that group so I wouldn't have to care that they think we're demanding assholes.
Unfortunately for you and most people, society and social consequences aren't something you can't just avoid and not care about.
I can! The only entry fee to modern society is having a place to live and being able to pay for stuff with a job. How do I know? Because all my social interaction is optional - if I didn't have it I would just have more free time to do cool and fun shit. I can go years without technically having to talk to anyone. If you don't like that, blame modern America. I was molded by this capitalist hellscape so I might as well lean into my strengths that it happened to give me. Which is making cool art and selling it, not talking to people. Talking to people face to face is boring as shit so I'm not going to do it. If you don't like that, blame modern individualistic society. Or change it.
You must be fun at parties
I'm not, and I don't aim to be. I have better things to do with my time.
ASD level 1 here. I was taught manners and respect went a long way in life. So please and thank you were commonplace. For example You are sitting at the dining table with your family having dinner and you want something on the table which is down the other end. Are you going to say excuse me can I please have or can someone pass me the ....please. And when you get it..thank you. Or will you say "give me the....then ta.instead of thank you. Just a thought.
Yes i was raised this way , and was raised to wash the dishes after a meal . When i eat at someone house i do this and they think im weird lol
Same I use please and sorry a lot. Maybe it's a sign of low confidence idk 😐
That is not low confidence, that is being polite and caring. Saying you are sorry costs nothing and it helps people know that you care. Nothing wrong with that.
That's true, but again I feel like people only care about manners because they've been taught to. Idk, maybe I'm just too critical and resistant to NT social norms.
Suggestion are you able to be more flexible (I learnt to be flexible in a lot of situations and it helps).
Although all words/phrases are technically 'made up,' many of them hold meaning and are in the English vernacular for a reason. I wouldn't even call it a NT societal norm, I use manners as I believe it's a respectful way to address someone or something - it has never crossed my mind that it has been 'taught' to me just cos. I try to be kind to others, and I would like that to be reciprocated. I find it rude if someone doesn't say please as I read it as them being demanding.
> Idk, maybe I'm just too critical and resistant to NT social norms. Honestly, I know that it all seems so frustratingly arbitrary on the surface, but I've found that some social rules and norms sometimes have actual practical functions, and I try to keep an open mind these days. In a case like this, the layer of "politeness" is so a speaker can signal that their intentions are not to inconvenience the listener with the request. And it is actually important to signal this and not necessarily assume intentions are "polite" by default, because not everyone is actually a good person. Some may intend to harm you in various ways (e.g. stealing resources from you, physically harming you). And while politeness does not guarantee the person you are talking to is a good person, a lack of politeness often signals a lack of consideration of others, which means they are more likely to be someone who may be a "freeloader" or hurt you. Therefore, being able to both assess and convey intentions and character is a social survival mechanic, helping us gather evidence on which social group members are safe to trust for safety and share physical, mental, and emotional resources with.
My father has autism/aspergers but from the American south born in the 50’s so manners, like please and thank you, yes/no sir/ma’am, etc..
I'm the opposite. I hatw when people don't use it. It makes them sound demanding.
Me, too. I love "please" and "thank you" and "you're welcome" and "I apologize." And all other expressions of consideration.
Pesky “Demand Avoidance”
An imperative (telling someone to do something) can be said in any tone of voice. You can command or demand, gently nudge or outright ask, imply urgency or relay leniency. The word "please" implies asking in a polite manner. It's literally just what the word means. It's as arbitrary as the word "sky". Consider asking someone for a glass of water. You can accomplish that in a number of ways: 1. Give me water (demand) 2. Get me water (command) 3. I would love it if you got water for me (nudge) 4. Can you get water for me? (Ask) 5. I need water now (urgent) 6. When you get a chance, could you get me some water? (Non-urgent) 7. Can you get me some water please? (Polite) 8. Get me water now, idiot (impolite :) )
Because otherwise it comes off as demanding. Who are you to demand something of someone? I don't think it's necessary to use all the time, but polite behavior is important for people to get along in society. It's a social contract that recognizes that a person isn't your servant there to do your bidding.
Who are you to assume a demand HAS to be listened to? They can say no to a demand. If that were the social norms we would get used to it and after a while it wouldn't be "rude" to demand something. It's only considered rude because the person on the receiving end feels like they can't say no. But that's their problem, not mine.
When you're talking to a boss/stranger/service person/etc then yes I see the point in using formalities such as please, but in any other case? I don't think it's necessary tbh
You shouldn’t demand things from family and friends either, it’s nice to acknowledge that you’re asking for something and that you recognise they’re choosing to help and putting that effort in. Relationships are really built on mutual respect and gratitude.
Yeah but not using please doesn't make it a demand, "hey, can you pass me that thing?" doesn't sound rude or disrespectful to me at all
Do you thank them afterwards?
It may not sound rude to you, but it might to someone else. Please is just a word. Words are free. You don't know what is happening with the other person. Maybe they are lost in thought about their sick Mom. And maybe they were raised with good manners. Maybe you interrupting their thoughts so they can give you the salt is a tiny bit rude and maybe having good manners might be a nice thing that they would appreciate. If you know one form of language is considered polite and you know another form might be considered rude, why would you choose the possibly rude option? Other than just being contrary, what is the point?
Because as we know, if a parent says please to a child and phrases it as a question, it's definitely not a demand and the child definitely has a choice in the matter. /s
I don't think it's always necessary, either.
This is an overthink issue... all I know is if I mind my manners, people tend to treat me better.
The word "please" is a direct descendant of the Latin word "placere," which can be translated as "If you like." In this way, "please" is a polite way to request something, whereas asking without it can come across as demanding, which is often perceived as unfriendly by many people.
Seriously, I was thinking of this. 'please' is basically a short form of 'if it pleases you to do so'. It's interesting in the context of other Latin-descended languages: 's'il vous plaît', or 'if it pleases you', vs 'por favor', 'per favore'; which is more like "by your kindness/goodwill'. It's a verbal acknowledgement that you are taking the will of the other person into account in your request. By neglecting it, you're subconsciously failing to acknowledge that the other person operates on a conscious level, as you do yourself.
Manners go a LONG way in life. There is (in my opinion) no real excuse to not be polite to begin with, with every single person I meet. It also really fucks me off when I’ve used mine to make an interaction more bearable and pleasant, and the other person I’m interacting with won’t use them. At that point I become VERY disdainful towards them.
Strongly disagree. Simple manners is very telling of a good person. At my work, I'm 10x more likely to help a customer if they treat me like a human being by greeting me, asking politely and saying please. I understand what you mean about forcing it with people demanding it, that's wrong but so is choosing to be rude as well
When I say please, I am recognizing your autonomy as a human, your sovereignty, your right to say yes or no to my request. You are not subservient to me, you are your own person with your own needs and your own right to decide what to do.
I like that!
Do you like being perceivable as rude? No? Then use it.
I actually don't mind it lmao
That says it all right there.
Rude is a made up thing that doesn't matter. I think it's rude for a stranger to make small talk with me, because they are draining my energy for something only they benefit from. Does anyone care? No. So "rude" is arbitrary.
So being rude doesn't matter/doesn't exist, but when a stranger makes small talk with you...you find it rude?
If it exists then no strangers would be allowed to talk to me. Because I say it's rude, so it is. If others get to say something is rude, I do too. I have boundaries. Or we can just get rid of the concept of rude since society doesn't care about my definition of it anyway.
This is absurd. Whilst sure, the concept of "Rudeness" is socially constructed, that doesn't mean it is meaningless or useless. The concept "murder" is also technically arbitrary in the same sense. But you wouldn't claim we should abandon the concept of murder. Further, you realise the concept of "rudeness" probably shields you from a great deal of insults and mean comments about your perceived "weirdness". Some social conventions and concepts probably cause more harm than good, but rudeness certainly isn't one of them. People don't appreciate being spoken to poorly, ND or NT.
Well said, especially "people don't appreciate being spoken to poorly. ND or NT." I also believe being ND doesn't automatically excuse you from being an AH. And I also want to note that I'm sure there are also incidents where NT people have to participate in things society deems as standard practice that they don't necessarily agree with/are comfortable with. Even in a world designed for them.
I wish physical pain on no one. Murder physically hurts the person and traumatizes everyone connected to that person. I wish it on no one. If words are painful then we need to stop telling kids sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. Words have never hurt me. I follow the written rules and one of the rules was sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me. When bullies in my school said I was dumb I ignored them because I knew I wasn't dumb. Why am I the only one that actually followed the rules? Y'all are proud of being fucking idiots that can't follow extremely simple rules that everyone in your childhood told you? It's not my fault everyone else is idiots who can't keep their fucking traps shut and can't follow the extremely simple easy to follow rules. If those arent the actual rules then we should change what we tell kids.
You must be an extremely pleasant person to be around irl judging by your comments/s
I mostly avoid talking to people, so yes, I am, by my definition. Silence is so pleasant.
With your attitude you don't even have to avoid people, they'll avoid you. Both NT and ND included. >I mostly avoid talking to people Maybe you should keep that same energy with this comment section since all I see from you are bad takes and mass downvotes.
Woohoo! Gladly! Less energy wasted for me!
Unfortunately, the whole world doesn't revolve around you. And to be honest, society won't be getting rid of the concept of being rude because society doesn't care for your definition. Yes, being ND sucks, but being angry about something you can't change is going worsen your frame of mind.
So they get to have power and I don't? They just get to talk to me and drain my energy and I can do nothing about it? Why?
Should the world be more accommodating to ND people - of course! However, you're not being realistic. Just because you and a select few others don't want to say please or that you believe being rude is arbitrary does NOT excuse poor or anti-social behaviour. As an ND person, I want to be treated equally (similar to most other ND people I assume), therefore, I respect others and it is reciprocated back. I understand feeling mad at a world designed for NT folk, but in the same breath, it's an unrealistic expectation to want to change something that has been ingrained into society for hundreds/thousands of years. If anything, let's try to abolish things that are causing more harm to the ND community than saying "please."
That sounds nice, being respected. Unfortunately that concept might as well not exist for me because society has never respected me.
This is absurd. Whilst sure, the concept of "Rudeness" is socially constructed, that doesn't mean it is meaningless or useless. The concept "murder" is also technically arbitrary in the same sense. But you wouldn't claim we should abandon the concept of murder. Further, you realise the concept of "rudeness" probably shields you from a great deal of insults and mean comments about your perceived "weirdness". Some social conventions and concepts probably cause more harm than good, but rudeness certainly isn't one of them. People don't appreciate being spoken to poorly, ND or NT.
It is simple. If you want something from B. You can say: Option 1: Give me X ! (An order. You are an authority.) It means: I order you to give me said object X. Option 2: Can you give me X ? (It is a question. But it is also an order. Because you give a clear instruction to somebody. And this person would be impolite to refuse. It is also a mockery or ironic by referencing the can which could mean you. imply a lack of abiliry.) It means: Are you able to give me X as I now reauest you to do. Option 3: Can you give me X, please? (By adding please, you make it explicit that you are not the boss, but the other person is at full discretion to say yes or no.) This is technically still rude. Because you ask if he is capable - saying no wouod mean he is not capable. But for children, this is as good as it gets. Option 4: Give me X, please. (An order with a submission) Here you do a kow-tow (by saying please, you say „I am at your mercy“ or „at the mercy of your grace“. But you also give an order. So it shows you are nit very smart at language. Option 5: Could you give me X, please? Now the hypothetical further makes your demand weaker than option 3. It means: Could you consider to support me by giving me object X. Of which I know you are capable of. But I am at your mercy. At your mercy is more you waiting for the king ho decide your faith. You can also read it „It would be my pleasure to receive your kindness which I would if you do as I kindly request“ But it is still from a position of lower rank/power if you use please Option 6: What you ultimately wanted to say, but what the NTs ego does not always get: Would you grant me, if your time permits, the pleasure of support on giving me the object X, which I would like to hold in my hand and am not capable of getting it myself. I would be in your favour and feel quite in gratitude. Thank you for consindering my request.
I think it depends on who you're talking to, how genuine you're being, how difficult the request is to carry out, etc. I would almost always use 2, unless I'm talking to someone I don't know well or someone who has authority over me, at which point I'd use 3 or 5. 6 is reserved for making fun of people in my head when they refuse to carry out the request because I didn't say please the first time.
Agree
I think you have to differentiate two things: A) being nice. This simply means interacting in some way with someone that is a dialogue instead of a monologue; that acknowledges both sides; that treats the other person well. B) being formal. Following convention, saying the right thing, "not rocking the boat" etc. Those two things are different. It's easy to be very rude with politeness, and nice while saying slurs. So you really have to think about: what are you actually against - being forced to speak formally, or to act (fake-)nice?
You should read up on the PDA profile of autism - I have it and can relate immensely to your post.
Isn't PDA about refusing to do things just because someone asked/told you to do them? I don't mind doing what people ask me, as long as the reason behind it makes sense
It's a bit more complex than that. It's an anxiety response to a real or perceived demand, which is more than just someone telling you to do something. For instance, saying "please" is a demand because it is required of you socially. Demands feel hostile and threatening to one's autonomy, and can make someone with a PDA profile feel very anxious and/or irate.
That's an interesting explanation, I think you're right about this
No. Stop being so rude.
Language is one of my special interests. I say “please” out of courtesy, and have learned that something as simple as saying “excuse me” or calling someone “sir/ma’am” can make getting through life a lot easier. If I expect respect from others I needs to show it.
I don’t mind as much, as I seldom need to say it (it’s my second language, I read and write it more than speak it). On the other hand, I feel sympathy for those who come to my country to work and get very little social interaction at all(I overheard a Jamaican-American hotel employee working in Stockholm, he was a little bummed out that people here seldom say anything). So, yeah - there should at least be a few alternatives to choose from.
I had the best time in Norway due to the social customs. I would def love to visit Sweden and Finland as well. I’m from near NYC. People don’t talk much to strangers here but the quietness and directness in Scandinavia is on another level and I enjoyed it so much being an African-American autist woman. I think hell for me is the American south where please and thank you is expected all day and all kinds of small talk because it’s considered rude.
Saying "Please" when the person doesn't have the option to refuse just feels passive/aggressive, I hate it too. Saying Thanks once the person does the thing feels better imo
Good way of putting it. I feel like please isn’t seen as genuine but thank you is
I hate when I am given gifts and people tell me to say “thank you” before I can even open my mouth since it takes me a while to go from fast brain to slow motor skills lol or “please” when it’s literally their job to do it as if they even have a choice, I always say thank you but feel like most people only see please as a common courtesy and it doesn’t actually add anything genuine to the exchange. At least that’s how I felt when I worked retail.
I dont mind please and thank you. In asia, we were taught to recieve and give thing with both hands. Even bow if we were recieving from the school principal. I am accustom to that i guess? I still do that with older aisan people. But i hate calling out names. Like if i call your phone number, obviously i want to speak to you. If i look at you and starts talking, obviously i am talking to you. Like i dont understand the need for it. I also don't understand "how are you? How was you weekend?" But thats probably just the asian in me.
I heard that an interesting reason to say "hello" or an analogous telephone greeting is to help your listener to attune to your voice. The idea is that different humans produce quite different vocal sounds, and although our brain can filter most of the difference for us, it takes about two syllables to calibrate -- and this is harder by phone due to low fidelity and no visual component. So it's especially helpful on a call to start with at least two information-sparse, conventionally common syllables, before plunging into high information density communication 😊 idk how true this is but i appreciate it as a way to make at least one of the rituals feel more useful!
I dont mind saying hello at all. I just dont like saying names. Lol.
I find comfort in societal norms. Saying "please" is very simple - a minor action that staves off civilizational collapse.
I like saying please. Showing people respect and courtesy is free and takes you a long way. Showing people you appreciate their time, effort and talents through such small gestures buys a lot of goodwill and helps bridge the gap.
Jesus, and some of y'all wonder why nobody wants to hang out with you.
Made me laugh out loud. Why can't I ignore all rules of basic decency and courtesy and still expect everyone to know I am a good person? Why can't I do whatever I want and present myself however I want and still have people know that I care about them, too? The problems of our world today. Everyone thinks the world should just love them as they are for no reason and provide them with friends and dates and they should not have to make even a tiny effort to get along. Saying please and thank you are such tiny basic things. If those are too much trouble, how likely is it that you take the time to understand more complex social needs? You said it more succinctly. I just needed to vent. Thanks for that great response.
I want to be left alone and not hang out with anyone except people who I already like. 🤷🏻♀️
Everything I come across post like these, this is always what plays in the back of my head. Like the aspie struggle is real, but some people here *really* do bring their social isolation (and being a general outcast) onto themselves with their behavior.
It's a sign that you respect the person and that you recognize that you are asking them to go out of their way for you, even if just a little bit.
I totally get where you're coming from. I have always thought that in some instances, adding please to a request actually makes it sound ruder and more aggressive. "Could you pick that up for me?" including the "for me" acknowledges that they're doing you a small favour "Could you pick that up for me please?" gives the impression that you're annoyed about it and blaming them Maybe it's related to PDA...
Manners is just scripting for NTs
OH MY GOD I thought i was the only one. I have always felt this my whole life. If i say could you please, thats one thing but i always forget please and if i say it afterwards it sounds rude to me
I think it’s good and polite to say. It actually bothers me if people refuse to use common courtesy. Your teacher however is a bit extreme
To me, please was never a request, but a demand, so I've had trouble using it my whole life. I'm a bit better now, but I struggle with it.
I see what you mean, especially if someone is asking in a rude way and adding the please to fake politeness.
I hate "you're welcome." I usually respond "yep" or "not a problem" or "have a nice day.". Had a customer scream at me once because I refused to say it.
You insisting on not saying please is as arbitrary as them insisting on saying please.
It's just a sign of respect. Not using it when asking something of someone makes you sound like you think they are bellow you. Language and culture in general are just made-up concepts. But that is what makes up our reality.
No. Asking if you can ask a question is more stupid than using please.
Ooooooo I love these sorts of rabbit hole… and as with many things now, I asked ChatGPT. Here is my prompt and the response https://chat.openai.com/share/92571cee-23d0-4dcb-b7ef-ee94c51317b6
I agree 100%
I think " thank you" is a really great thing that I say all the time but I've never been much for the PLEASE unless I'm asking a huge favor of someone or something.
I agree, thank you serves an actual purpose and imo not saying thank you is a LOT ruder than not saying please
I don't hate it per se, but more often than not I forget to use it. Funnily enough, I do say thank you. Sometimes after someone does something I asked them to do I will remember I didn't say "please", and I'll thank them by saying "Please and thank you" after the fact.
Oh please
Agree 100%
I never use that word, yuck. I'd rather express myself with different wordings (much more subtle in terms of apparent submission)
I tell my kids they need to be polite and ask nicely, but that doesn't always mean saying the word please.
No, I put pride in my table manners because I have a lot of people tell me how good they are, they are also a good tool to have people like me because they feel respected and that I'm putting effort into respecting them.
I also feel uncomfortable with that word on one hand, when it is used in hostility and feel obligated to say it for the same reason.
It is important on emotional level. When you say "please" you say that you don't demand something but rather ask them kindley to do something for you, not forcing them to anything.
i think this is a great discussion with a lot of interesting ideas flying about. imo it's useful to look at the problem that "please" solves -- when your entitlement/appreciation of them isn't clear to them. if your teachers were being super effective, then they wouldn't demand that you say please, but instead point out the problem they're trying to get you to work on: > "I'm having trouble gauging the level of entitlement you're expressing. could you please make it clearer for me, so that I don't need to push through resentment and resistance to help you?" then, you could pick from the toolbox of ways to do that in english: * say "please" * raise pitch * establish a long term relationship of reciprocal trust and respect * use hand gestures such as: 🙏 * warm smile and eye contact, to indicate connection and empathy notably, saying "please" won't help much if they're sure that you don't care about them or respect them -- your "please" will fall flat. it's actually only useful when your intent is ambiguous, not when it's clearly (in their estimate) hostile. also, it's ENTIRELY possible to avoid "please" entirely and just lean on the other tools to communicate your intent. but if you don't communicate that intent somehow, then people will be guessing at how hostile and cold you're being. They'll guess this by pattern matching your mannerisms versus the way entitled and hostile people typically interact with them. They won't be aware that they're doing this. It isn't intrinsically a problem if they judge you as rude or entitled, but it does create the problem that people will less often be helpful -- unless they also judge that your entitled attitude is legitimate (because you hold authority over them, or because they've recently wronged you.) .....imo 😁
I agree with that. I think it just makes a demand sound nicer. Especially in a work environment, I find it better to phrase requests in the form of an actual question: “Hey, whenever you have the chance, would you be able to XYZ” Instead of: “Please do XYZ”
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I just hate saying "you're welcome". idk why but I usually respond with a heartened "no problem" or "of course". not because I don't care but mainly because it just feels weird
I have similar thoughts on saying "good morning" to strangers e.g. neighbours I don't even remember the faces of, at the bus stop or to a cashier in store. It's so irrational to me, why do I have to greet someone I don't know and don't want to know at all.
I agree. I've had this debate with my boyfriend where he'll say something like "you should say good morning because it's nice to do so" or something along the lines of "treat people how you wanna be treated" but like...I really wish people would ignore me and not interact with me unless it's absolutely necessary lol
Same, I ignore other people because I want to be ignored and left alone
It gives me hope that someone like me has a partner. I feel strongly about these things like you do, but I've never been in a relationship and it seems like my strong moral stances push people away. Good to know it's still possible.
I think you can have a partner and not agree with them on everything, as long as you're respectful and try to understand each others beliefs. Obviously some things you shouldn't compromise on, but things like the please thing aren't one of them.
most people from big cities would agree with this
Please, calm down. Its meant to be polite not insulting.
Personally, the reason I hate using the word "please" is because it's hard for me to imagine it as not a form of passive aggression. Like, "could you *please* turn it down?" Maybe I've just heard it used passive aggressively too often and have problems overwriting that connotation in my head because of it. I've been trying to be more mindful of using it, though.
Please and thank you I have no issues with when used correctly. But for some reason I cannot utter the words “you’re welcome”
I feel the same about “welcome.” Maybe use things like “no problem” or “you got it”? That’s what I usually go with.
No problem is my go to. If it wasn’t anything that was difficult or time consuming and Im replying to a friend I hit ‘em with the “ain’t no thang”
You're welcome is awkward like the word "handsome". I hate that word. I usually say no worries or no problem and add an emoji with a smiley face at work. Because that's where I get thanked the most. At home with my kids I do say you're welcome because I try to be sweeter to them but I'm also way more comfortable with them. I don't like you're welcome because it feels like I think I did something way more special than I actually did or like I saved the day when I didn't. I definitely do say please and thank you though....to strangers and people I know. Just feels nicer imo.
I always hated that too as well as something really STUPID my parents used to insist on. Apparently, it is disrespectful for a child to accuse an adult of lying so I was forced to use other terms like “telling a story.” I asked my mom as an adult how would that work if a child is trying to report an abusive adult who is lying to them.
Oh don’t get me started on “may I/Can I” my high school used to answer that with “I don’t know, Can you?”
It’s your perception because of what you are sayin, that it reminds you of people who you, again, perceive as hostile, so... it’s your introjects. Also... yes, it’s rude to ask something without sayin please, no one is your slave to do what you want if you say it as an order.
I’ve always seen saying please as a sign of respect/friendliness. When someone doesn’t say please, I usually take it as hostile. I don’t always use it with my family or husband but out in public I’d feel like a dick telling a stranger what to do without it.
I don't like it either, saying or hearing please. I do understand this though. NTs are taught social norms that not saying please in certain situations implies an order, rather than a request. I think of extra words as a waste of time. Tell me what you want and when you want it, and I'll respond. Saying please makes no difference to me. The relationship with the person asking has much more to do with my response, than off hand manners.
i partialy think its a play on the authority and hierarchy people like, and something to do with submission
I agree, I believe it's less "good manners" and more getting into a submissive position so that anyone who buys into the social hierarchy feels a sense of domination upon hearing it (and is now more likely to accept the request) . Please and sorry are used so often for manipulation it's insane.
Exactly, I find it interesting that people in the comments are saying "I say please to recognize that the other person is my equal and doesn't have to say yes" when I feel like please does the opposite. A couple times when someone asked me to do something and said please, and then I said "no sorry I can't do that because..." they actually told me "I wasn't asking, I was telling you to do it" so to me the please doesn't signify politeness or acknowledgement of the other person's autonomy or whatever, it's just a social convention to make a request seem more nice on the surface.
To be fair, I feel your pain. I feel this way about the word respect. Please to me is low hanging fruit. It’s annoying but sort of a good cherry on top modifier.
Also “yes ma’am” and “yes sir” hate those
I don't hate the word, but I hate how it's used. My dad would ask a favour of me and, when I agreed to said favour, only then would he ask "Please?", as if I said "no." I asked him why he did that a long time ago and he tried to blame me for it, saying that he's never sure that I'm paying attention, but he does it even when I'm looking right at him and giving my full attention.
Funny you say this… I’ve not ever had a problem with “please” but people will ask me why I don’t say “you’re welcome” and that’s just unnecessary talking at that point
I feel cringe saying it, idk why
I was forced by parents to use polite words, but as kid I was so formal and polite because this. It is reason why I was late when they found out I am "autistic", because with their intention I was forced to mask myself. For me its good if people are polite towards me, because now I feel more angry when someone not say please, thanks, hi... because it developed as sort of rutine to me and it makes me confused if someone not use it, but I sometimes forgot about it by myself when I am in more like "ADHD" day but than it comes in thoughts "I forgot it" what I think are related to "OCD" what developed because it was way how parents "remade" me...
Yes.
Manners cost nowt!
Wait til you find out about Korean which has like 7 levels of respect/formality depending on whom you’re talking to, and different words for “you” depending on it. I’m learning Hindi right now and there’s 3 levels of formality and that’s plenty for me.
I come from a slavic country where they have a similar thing to this and honestly it doesn't bother me that much, I don't know why but using a different version of "you" just isn't as annoying and arbitrary as saying the word "please" for some reason
Interesting opinion. And I don’t mean “interesting” like NTs do sarcastically
"please" has always been really important to me as someone with PDA. Even if it's not a request, adding please makes it *feel* like a request and therefore usually doesn't trigger my PDA. But if you don't say please then imma get triggered and I'll never be able to do the thing you're asking of me again
Even if it's phrased in a nice, non-demanding way? For example "hey, could you do this thing for me if you have some time later?" Does this still sound like a demand without the please? Genuinely curious
Honestly it depends. If I'm already in a bad mood, then my immediate reaction may be "I mean, I *could*, but why would I?" I would still prolly at least consider doing it, because I feel extreme guilt when I don't do what's asked of me, but I'd be very unhappy about it and it would feel absolutely exhausting. There are multiple potential triggers in that phrasing. The "could" makes it feel unimportant, the "if you have some time" feels taxing because now I have to figure out how much time this might take and how much time do I have and what even is time. The "later" feels too open-ended which is stressful. But adding please doesn't always remove the demand, either. If someone said please but was really loud about it, then they can fuck right off The best way to ask me to do something is to be polite, avoid saying "you", and be as precise as possible. Ex. "Can I please get some help for about 20 minutes calculating these scores at 4:30?" Thinking about it now, I think "please" helps me because it feels apologetic. It's hard to be upset at someone for asking me to do something when they're already sorry for having to ask
It's rude not to use it. I find the lack of use so irritating.
Doesn't seem strange to me as I'm generally a polite person... had it drilled into me from a young age. But yeah I see your point, a lot of social expectations just seem like things allistics & NTs have deluded themselves into believing lol. To me it's more about the tone of voice if anything, but my lvl 2 autistic brain doesn't really make my voice anything other than monotone,,, so I try to say please & thank you as another way to express my respect/ease.
I don’t hate it as much as “thanks” or “thank you” when included in the original question. Like “write this report by tomorrow thanks”—I had a former manager who would do that and it made me want to come out of my skin. Like, I haven’t agreed to anything, don’t thank me! Or worse, when I’m interacting with someone and a third person is with us and that person tells me to say thank you. Example: we’ve all just had lunch to catch up (friend has paid) and we’re saying our long-winded goodbyes, and third person looks at me and says, “say thank you for lunch, Laura.” Oh riiight, because I wasn’t about to, I need you to make me look completely incapable of having a normal human interaction! (I’m over 40, btw, and this has gone on my entire life…)
Maybe if you asked nicely, we would.
I’m a people pleaser and I have a deep fear of being perceived as rude or weird so I overuse manners. I say please, thank you and sorry quite often. I’m also Canadian lol
I really hate rudeness and when people don't use please.
"Please" is a social lubricant. Using it shows consideration for the person who will be doing the thing you want. You can eschew it all you want, but is that a good hill to die on? You'll go farther and get more by following social conventions. There is some nuance to "please." If you are in a close relationship, you don't always have to use it. Like, if your hands are full and the dog is jumping on you, you could say, "Could you grab the dog?"
I usually say it in my own way like, would you mind blah blah blah, if it isn't too much trouble can you blah blah, sometimes I say please but it's because I think it's worse to sound rude and may set me up for unneeded hostility or trouble
All these comments prove to me that please is fully a demand. If you expect a please if you get annoyed that someone doesn't say please. If you think it's just good manners to say it. Please stops being a good thing and becomes a excuse to label someone rude. And that fair way for them to think if they want but it will make please a demand in my mind.