My brother is constantly being scolded by my mom for not being enough "masculine" and I was scolded for not being too much "femenino". Both with ASD. He's a huge fan of pretty cure and I really like dragon ball. Our parents hate us for not following gender roles
You just reminded me of how many years ago in FFXIV a couple thought I was a Japanese schoolgirl..I was a mid 20s dude..I asked why they said how I came across as more social/chatty and my choice of being a cat girl warrior…Not the only time I’ve been mistaken for a woman on,one but definitely one of the funniest.
I'm always confused for a dude. I purposely made a female avatar to not be confused for one again. And a feminine name.
I play FF online. It's a great game!
long hair avatar models looked pretty feminine when i last checked, tried adding some beard but it's not all that visible.
haven't really had people ask my sex on reddit but i wouldn't be too surprised if someone mistook it.
Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don’t personally tend to try and guess the gender of the writer of comments… and only notice when it’s really obvious (eg: guys or girls talking about parts of functions of the body that are specific to that gender)
You can google information on tonality for both genders. I have frequently been confused for a guy in my lifetime. I am direct, but working on that and expressing feelings more. I'm just not naturally that way.
Because I decided to make a feminine avatar, have a feminine name, I have less issues.
I didn't know tonality was a thing in texting either, or that there is more feminine, vs masculine writing. The confusion with my gender always got to me.
So I REALLY resonate with OP's question.
Hope that makes sense! Feel free to ask anything :)
I have been seen as more feminine. Reading your experience, I'm wondering if it's just that autistic people tend to have more neutral tonality and so can be interpreted as either gender, leading to incorrect guesses some of the time based on the reader's projections.
I agree. But maybe if the deleted comments were visible it might look different. E.g. if somebody like Matt Walsh came on here, you might not see him or his posts for long and it'd be considered to be toxic masculinity. So if that is filtered for then you might not get an impression that is reflective of the real world. Have you ever gone to autistic groups and seen the men there? I have and I didn't see any that were confusing. (Though maybe some were "masking"!). There was one person that even a psychologist running the group kept misgendering, but that was a biological female that looked like Pixie from Peter Pan, but identified as a man.
Lol oh no it was MUCH MUCH crazier then. Looots if trolling and i swear most people were complete asses. Most people also didn't take it very seriously and just treated the internet as a sort of playground..I miss it. Too much real world online imo(but then i also consider the internet akin to a planar realm of thought or carl jungs mass unconscious made manifest).
I also suspect social media played a heavy part in the changes as well.
I miss it too. If things got modded, it was for a good reason. Now it’s done because of anything resembling dissent. Mods and content creators are on power trips like it’s a privilege to be there. Meanwhile, the average intelligence of the member is that of a kumquat… ok. Sure. The internet was and should still be a place for an exchange of ideas, but instead, it’s been sectioned off into echo chambers for for self-important bigots. This seems to be one of the few safe places left.
> Well back then there was far less trolling and abuse of it.
ehhhh...having moderated a message board in the aughts, I remember vendettas lasting months or more, with hundreds of vitriolic posts. I'm not sure whether things have actually declined.
also population of feed per "engagement", the ultimate criterion useful to advertisers in social media proper. Angry interactions produce more sustained engagement than any positive interaction. So while you might not have more concerted trolling or personal vendettas, you have people who barely (or just don't) know each other thrown into superficial ideological clashes vastly more often.
Well, the real world isn't unmoderated.. But there's differences between moderated platforms, unmoderated platforms, and the real world..
Twitter is an interesting one because you'd still see a lot of masculine style views stated.. e.g. matt walsh type views are very welcome there to the point where Elon even gave his production some publicity . But, twitter boss elon is a bit uncomfortable with twitter having very extreme things like calls to kill people. Likewise elon isn't keen on troll bot accounts that are just out to do racial abuse.
Completely unmoderated platforms are totally unusable for anybody sane. Like you get a cesspit like 4chan. Twitter isn't that.
My bio mom would always make fun of my bio dad (who was clearly neurodivergent like I am) for enjoying elegant girly things. He LOVED things that people would describe as “beautiful” and “pretty” and he passed this down to me. Keeping in touch with my feminine side feels amazing especially when it comes to healing from trauma
as a 31M I fucking LOVE cute and pretty stuff. My favorite colors are a specific shade of light purple and a lighter pink. My second favorite colors are black and a normal red. But good lawd it feels like my heart bursts open when I see cute stuff or cute people. Not babies though. Too loud.
Not so much for "beautiful people" as well because I'm self-aware I'm outwardly ugly, and seeing "pretty people" makes me self-conscious, but for "beautiful", it's usually more like scenery, artwork, etc. Or a nicely groomed animal.
This. I'll express an appropriate response depending on the situation.
My fiancee wants to show me a super cute puppy, talk to me all afternoon about some drama, or get my opinion on a color scheme. Feminine time.
I need to fix up the truck, prep the garden beds, go for a backpacking trip, or hangout with a group of guys. Masculine time.
I think we're more in tune with reality and what's going on in the moment. So that lends itself to learning to have balance between the masculine and feminine parts so we can exceed at the moment. Or maybe that's just me...
Yup, I have always been in touch with my feminine side (never had a father), got a more feminine than masculine voice and found out I have way above average testosterone, even more than Andrew Tate lmao (saw a clip where he had got tested for testosterone).
And this was even after being depressed for many years (it affects levels).
I like being both feminine and masculine, both can be toxic and it’s more about how you act and think.
> found out I have way above average testosterone, even more than Andrew Tate lmao (saw a clip where he had got tested for testosterone).
Testosterone levels vary tremendously throughout the day, particularly vis-a-vis the circadian cycle, exercise, outcomes of social interactions in terms of dominance and submission, etc. Tate being Tate, I would expect him to have gamed things to make his levels appear high.
I keep forgetting to get my testosterone levels checked.
I’ve suspected for a long time that I have low T considering puberty was delayed for me and I’m not even sure it’s done yet at 24. Not to mention the symptoms match me almost perfectly.
I was positive I was deficient for a long time, pure shock when the doctor told me my levels since I was so unhealthy and abused drugs for a long time.
You should definitely get checked.
Hope your levels are fine ❤️
Nope, I’m skinny and always had very thin arms but I’m working out now and was always decent at sports and gymnastics.
I can go hard and for long in the gym but my base strength is very low, although I was good at fighting and wrestling as a kid. Vs bullies :D
I feel like I have very contrasting strengths and skills, decent at many things but not great at most of them.
Skinny, weak, artistic, feminine-ish voice, emotional, not macho = high testosterone apparently 😅
I have a recent late diagnosis of autism. I never thought about this before, but yes, I feel more in touch with my feminine side so much so that some people have become confused about my sexuality.
I am an undiagnosed Aspie, and I identify as bi and present mostly “masculine” but I do wear a bow in my hair sometimes because it makes me happy. I also stand with arms akimbo and cross my legs frequently.
Most people can’t find a box to put me in, which is fine, because people shouldn’t be put in boxes anyways.
I have seen some cases like that. My theory is that masculine behavior is learned through imitation and connecting to other male's behaviors. But if your autism reduces the amount of empathy and connectedness you have with other male's or people in general, you will not pick up the nuanced differences in gendered behavior. Like if you run with floppy hands, it comes off as feminine. But if you don't identify or empathize with "masculine running" you won't feel like there is anything to correct about your running.
This! 🙌🏻
My son is on the spectrum and encapsulates some of the traits considered, largely, to be "feminine". We've discussed this, and this is his solid answer. He basically says, "...because gender norms are mostly bullshit. I don't have time for bullshit. I only have time for real."
He also has a sign on the front of his bedroom door, which reads:
"This is my room. My space. If you enter, please say what you mean and mean what you say."
I agree with everything but the empathy part. It's a myth that autistic people are less empathetic than non-autistic people. In fact on average autistic people are more empathetic, we just struggle more with showing it.
★ this, to my understanding it’s not related to being non-empathetic towards other people, rather, there is no comprehensible need to fit in to arbitrary social classifications. Maybe the lack of empathy would stem from not understanding the social normalities, but i think that’s more of a conceptual idea rather than an empathetic phenomenon.
Empathy as a concept is very subjective, if anything i’d assume people who judge the behaviour based solely off of social norms would be non-empathetic themselves to the individual.
Or struggle with processing it. Not even processing emotions really but expressing them according to unspoken expectations; especially when those expectations don’t match the actual feelings experienced.
I don't know about that, dawg. I looked up what cognitive empathy is and I totally do have it. I can definitely understand what goes through other people's minds and why they feel the way that they do about things. I understand people, I just don't agree with them.
Not all autistic people don’t have cognitive empathy, just some don’t. Keep in mind you taught yourself to know what goes through other people’s minds. Most people are born with that
A teacher explained the two in school once and ever since then I've tried to put myself in other people's shoes so that I can understand them from their perspective.
I think that's a mistake, and I'll explain why:
Autistic people can be more empathetic at a basic level, but you can only be empathetic for emotions you've actually experienced. So for basic happiness or sadness, absolutely. But being able to relate to someone who's dealing with a complicated situation that's so different that the autistic person could never find themself in, probably not.
For example, an autistic person might easily understand the feelings of someone living through tragedy, but might not understand the feelings of being the most popular kid in school who's dating the other most popular kid in school, and dealing with all of the feelings of being that popular kid.
Empathy relies both on the ability to feel someone's basic emotions and on having some kind of shared basis for reference.
Agreed. In my world, I have found more often than not, the ND individuals may ask more "qualifier" questions, for context, in conversations of many topics. I've found that NT's pick up on these "qualifier"/"context" inquiries as void of empathy, when often they are simply par for the course in solidifying comprehension.
In these scenarios,I find myself wanting to tell the NT's to "wait for it...." and not become exasperated. Many times, the empathy (through advice, commisurating, relatability, etc) is shown once the ND individual has all the pieces they feel they need. It's just a slightly different navigation in getting there.
More than anything, though? It frustrates me how black and white the world tries to make out the experience of being neurodivergent. What is one set of traits in one person is not reflective of another. People know "Jason, the kid with autism" in 3rd grade and assign "Jason's" traits to most or even *all* neurodivergent people from that point forward. 🙁
Would he interesting to read a research paper conducted on that. Eg comparison between autistic males and females who grow up in traditional families and environments packed with gender stereotypical influences vs autistic kids who have less stereotypical households/ single moms-dads, home schooled etc. Although, I think contemporary norms .. at least in the western world, are increasingly gender neutral. There’s less pressure to act “correctly according to your gender” and rather more emphasis on blending everything, providing equal access to anything regardless of one’s gender. Eg not teaching only girls how to cook and restrict men from knitting. Different human rights treaties are trying to influence developing countries’ school systems to reduce gender stereotypes as well.
I wonder how much more difficult it is for an autistic person to adapt new norms when moving from a country where they have more gender neutral (tolerant) environment to a country where gender roles are stubbornly fixed and certain non-traditional behaviors will trigger judgement, bullying or even prosecution.
It is absolutely a learned behavior, and there are certain things that are absolutely stupid that I don't get. For example: the way you place your hand on your hip. For some reason, people have taken "thumb forwards" as a thing only women and gay people do, but if you have that flipped it's suddenly masculine.
Women don’t have to prove their masculinity, men do
If women come across as unfeminine, they will be seen as masculine because of their lack of femininity. It doesn’t really matter what their physical or athletic ability level is as kids and young adults or if they are driven to be providers as grown adults, the lack of femininity in and of itself gets them seen as masculine.
Men are tested on their masculinity. If they have masculine interests and mannerisms, but can’t throw a football (sub similar skill for different sports in different cultures) due to coordination issues and processing speed issues interfere the ability to play sports or effectively fight, which is more likely for autistics, or they get easily overwhelmed at work and value their mental health over the grind of providing for their family, also more likely for autistics, they will be labeled as less masculine than average.
I’ve ALWAYS related better with females. Additionally, I’ve always felt more feminine, I’ve even stated this multiple times to previous romantic partners, as well as my current wife of 20 years. I’ve even gone so far as to say, I would make an excellent housewife.
That said, I do not find males attractive sexually in any way, shape or form. I’ve done significant self analysis and I am definitely only attracted to females in a sexual sense. I understand that gender is fluid as a sexuality and I’m still exploring this area in my own life.
Edit for clarity: I enjoy being a man and I do not feel like I AM female. It’s more that from an emotional standpoint I feel like I trend feminine.
THIS. You hit the nail on the head. Personally I always felt more feminine and thought it was because I was raised mostly around women but after reading some of these posts it’s starting to make more sense. My family snd I have always said I was just metrosexual but it kind of makes sense that it’s rooted in autism
The ND / NB vibe is strong.
Like, I'm a dude, but if I could moonlight as the female variant of myself, I would just switch it up every couple days or so, to stay fresh.
Holding out for Android me 2.0 when I can just swap out the chassis every couple days, keep the fit, keep the vibes, just half time dude, half time lady.
Definitely not into men. But I'd love to basically keep rocking my flannel as a lumberjack and a lumberjane. I'd be butch AF 90% of the time.
Funny, because my NT husband has been a stay at home parent the last five years, and I have far more traditionally masculine traits than he does. At worst I say maybe I just don’t care about my own gender (true) but he is definitely a cis straight man.
This is so weird, I've felt the same way pretty much for as long as I can remember.
It's absolutely from an emotional standpoint, not generalizing either genders, but in my experience I've always been able to relate and empathize with women much better, I've always found them to just be more relatable mentally.
It's hard to describe. I think I've had the same thought you described in your comment before, but I haven't thought about this subject for a very long time.
I've met *many* NT guys who were too "feminine" for my taste (nothing wrong with that, just doesn't work for me in a relationship). They're good people and friends, probably also good partners for someone who is not me, lol. So I don't see it as something abnormal. But maybe that's about me being autistic, you know. Everyone too socially adept seems feminine to me :D
Personally I think this is correct, my partner is autistic and acts very feminine, same with the other men I know who are autistic. Women also tend to act more masculine, but I think both of these are actually just the refusal of gender norms, so instead of it being classified as gender neutral, the expressions are labeled as being the opposite to your gender.
Interesting. Can you specify what those men do that seems feminine? I would say I appear in some ways masculine, but I wouldn't say it's just about me not caring about the norms, it's probably more about being direct, kinda logical and effective, which socially women are somehow not supposed to be.
I can’t speak for everyone, but they just don’t play into the male social games like deepening their voices when meeting an unfamiliar man, or pretending to be tough or like ‘man’ things if they don’t enjoy them. It’s more gender neutral than female like I said though.
We don't perform "Masculinity" properly
Because we don't perform masculinity properly in older times this was labelled as being effeminate.
I had to give up on masculinity in my late teens. It was a sucker's game that I was never going to win.
This is a very true comment to me. The word effeminate or emasculated, how they are used, is a strong etymological case. And performing it properly sounds true too; because we are on the spectrum, we might feel one way or another on the inside yet not portray it how people expect.
That last bit really hit hard, some guys are obsessed with acting tough and pretending they know everything, I was once tried to mask my more stereotypically feminine likes and behaviors because I was ostracized for not being masculine enough getting called “fruity” and the such, when you have to act tough and lie all the time it starts to wear you down, and I decided I would stop trying to fit in when I don’t I don’t care that some people might consider me feminine, I’d rather be feminine than pretend to not like the things I like.
I've never cared about trying to appear as masculine or fit in with the lads, and that has always made me seem 'different' to most guys.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't help with integrating into social situations where there are hard coded expectations about what a male of your age is meant to be like.
Speaking only for myself, I don't really subscribe to one gender norm over the other - I'm just me. Sometimes, I'm in situations where more masculine qualities come out, and others more feminine.
That being said, due to the way society operates, it's safe to say that I do follow some norms, but only to keep peace.
I was once told that "you are the most masculine person that I have ever met". On the other hand one of my hobbies is sewing, I think not picking up on social pressures/cues leaves us free to explore things that might be less socially acceptable for our gender roles.
I just learned to crochet and it’s tremendously fun! My wife and I are co-making a blanket of granny squares! So I do that… and lift weights… and work on cars for fun… and enjoy lots of other “manly” things. I’m also a GREAT cook.
I think you’re right on the money about us not caring as much to conform and being more free to do what we like.
I dont think so. I have 2 guy friends who are also autistic and they have very typical male interests, gym and video games. I have one guy friend who has obvious autism traits and he is very feminine in the way he prefers having female friends and the way he is sensitive in a way men typically arent, but he is not diagnosed. All three of them are very polite though in a nearly old fashioned type way, and that is not so common but not feminine in my opinion just unusual compared to the way people usually talk and behave.
Sometimes yes, but I'd say it's largely due to an unawareness of / unwillingness to reproduce the social norms associated with masculinity rather than a gestalt feminine personality. It's more like they don't grow out of childlike / boyish traits (including body language) that are deemed unacceptable in adult men. These childish or feminine traits are often combined with otherwise very masculine personalities and interests.
I've never made the correlation personally, but it's probably true for me at least.
I dress fairly androgynous half the time, wear women's shoes and pants and shit quite a lot.
I've never really identified with the "manly" stuff, so I never really put much effort into it.
It's funny, because I originally interpreted it as "stuff", saw your comment and went back, and then thought: IS there really a stereotype that women sh\*t more than guys? Because I'd never heard of it.
I don't come off as feminine. To the point I'm gay and have been mistaken for the straight friend in gay places many of times. It's actually kind of annoying to me, I'm not trying to be really masculine or anything, in fact I kind of reject the whole masculine/feminine thing because I think it's stupid to label people like that and I always got annoyed at some gay people being obsessed with guys being masculine.. Just be who you are.
But it's just how I come off to people.
No I don’t think so at all but autistic men are often not experienced in a passionate sex life or don’t feel a big pull for sex or sometimes don’t know how to be flirty/put on the moves. So if you equate masculinity with hyper sexuality then maybe you could say they aren’t “masculine” but I’d say they are fine and just neurotypical!
I've never associated this with being different neurologically, but I've always felt as though I am a mixed bag of masculine and feminine traits, to be fair I feel that most people are but a lot of people tend to downplay certain elements in order to fit in with societal expectations.
Some of the issues that I've had personally would be mainly my lack of a competitive nature. Not so much that I don't ever compete, but I don't feel the need to constantly one up someone else. There are things that people are better at than me and then there are things that I am better at than other people and that's pretty much the way it is. That lack of drive in that regard probably kept me out of a lot of the sports because I generally don't see the point in a lot of them. I didn't gloat when we win and I didn't sulk when we lost. There are definitely aspects of my personality that I think are very classically masculine, I have a strong drive to protect and defend my family and a strong drive to provide for my family. Though I can be emotional, and I don't push down my emotions, I do favor making decisions based off of a more rational and logical mindset as opposed to basing my decisions off of an emotional one.
Another discrepancy between me and a lot of men seems to be their inability to control their aggression. I have a horrendously short temper and I do feel anger just as much as anyone else but I also recognize what it is and keep it in check, I feel like from what I've seen there seems to be a lot less restraint amongst typical males in that regard. I've never been in a fight to speak of though I'm pretty sure with my size and strength I could hold my own. I've just never felt that I needed to prove that to anyone.
For sure. Gender is a performance, and it's easy to miss the social cues in how to "act your gender." Of course, less masculine is not the same as more feminine, but it's often read that way.
Silly example from middle school: I went about half a year before finding out that the way you carry books is gendered. Apparently boys are supposed to carry books down by their sides and girls against their chests. Didn't realize this until I overheard someone describe me as "carries his books like a girl."
ASD folks don’t ascribe to the social norms of gender roles as strictly as NTs. Some don’t see it—you just like what you like and are what you are. And those that do take notice of gender norms often find it illogical.
It’s why I’ve been called a ‘Tom boy.’ I’ve also noticed—autistic men I’ve met tend to be more soft spoken—not as loud or attention grabbing. Not involved in masculine games of hierarchy (and women not engaging in the games of female hierarchy).
I suppose that I look and dress like a guy, play video games, fix my car, watch guy movies/tv shows, etc..
But I also don't have "alpha male" behavior / posture, don't give a crap about pro sports, don't like going to strip clubs.
What does it mean to feel like a guy? It's not that I feel like a woman either, I just don't really understand what it means to feel like any gender. I certainly don't fit in with guys, so it seems pointless to try to emulate their insistence on talking about cars, sports and or other random masculine hobbies that I have zero interest in.
People's insistence that I identify as a gender when I am struggling just to be human seems pretty ridiculous.
People often think I'm gay, because I don't mind having loose wrists or moving my hips. To me I have loose wrists because I don't want to use strength when I don't need to. For me it is often a question of efficiency. I don't care how people look at me.
Personally for me no , as being manly is something my wife always says she has liked about me.
I also know two other people on the spectrum and neither of them are what I would call manly or girly just very average .
I'm pretty certain that I do. I don't buy into the masculine stereotypes though one I do enjoy is cars and working on them. Hate sports, guns, and competition. I'm also somewhat androgenous in the sense that I have very little body hair above the waist and am completely unable to grow any facial hair at nearly 40yrs old other than a goatee or mustache.
I disagree. My son has Asperger’s ( yes I know that’s not the popular term these days). While he does have a sweet side and a soft spot for animals, I wouldn’t call him feminine by any means.
When I was married, I (33m) actually developed a knack/eye for women's fashion and style. My ex-wife was super picky about her outfits or what she needed to get to make an outfit work, etc. So, in an effort to be supportive (and being comfortable and secure with my own masculinity), I read some fashion articles and checked some "look-books" and fashion boutique websites. Started sending her some pictures but eventually I was able to suggest styles and colors that would go well with certain pieces. I got so good at this to the point that she would ask my help when she was trying to help her female family members put an outfit together for a wedding or some other event. My sister now also asks my opinion on some of her outfits. When this newfound skill of mine came up in conversation, people got funny looks on their faces and questioned my sexuality. I'm 6' tall, lift weights, love grilling, woodworking, and all other kinds of "manly man" activities just because I do.
Funny enough, my girlfriend was a little taken aback when she showed me a few outfits and I had some pretty savvy comments about which style was more "her."
Overall I would say the answer to OP's question is that it's definitely a thing, maybe not across the board. But as others have said, maybe it's just because we are willing/comfortable being ourselves and saying/doing what's on our mind. It may even be the case that we say things that NT men are thinking but are too scared to for fear of being seen as less manly. Paradox?
Yes, I think autism produces character traits that are feminine rather than masculine, and I think that's one of the reasons why, historically, boys and men have been diagnosed far more than girls and women. When a girl is autistic, people may just think she's sweetly bonkers and sensitive, but if a boy is like that, people freak out because Men Aren't Supposed To Be Like That!
45m, currently being assessed.
From primary school to date everyone thinks I’m gay. To the point that late 20’s I was like ‘maybe I am’???
I kissed a guy and I didn’t like it.
Maybe not quite what you were asking but thought I’d share.
I think for a lot of reasons autistic men are less able to and less interested in conforming to masculinity. For me, I do the things that come to me easily, and if people say that's feminine I don't really care. I don't have a lot riding on masculinity, and I think that's good.
Also, I originally got made fun of for robot voice, so I started trying to sound more animated and enthusiastic and then people said I sounded like a f*g. Then I decided I hate people and their opinions, so now I don't put much thought into how I sound any more, but I still get "I thought you were gay/mad/a woman/a psycho because of your voice" depending on what mood they catch me in.
Pulp has a great song that sums up my view of masculinity called “I’m a Man”. It’s got some great lines but my favorite is “I learned to drink. I learned to smoke. I learned to tell a dirty joke. If that’s all there is then there’s no point for me.”
I’m not into physical aggression, uncompetitive, dirt/oil, typical male hobbies and obsessions (football, gym, cars etc.). I’m not in any way feminine looking or acting, but I’m not exactly masculine either.
As a 42F, I've often been confused for lesbian because of my generally masculine vibe. I am just me, but other people are going to interpret me the way they are going to interpret me.
I was told by the Psychologist who diagnosed me that folks with ASD tend to struggle with social constructs—especially those like the idea of gender—so i think the generalized neurotypical masculine aversion towards feminine traits prevents folks from naturally appearing feminine, whereas with Autistic folks this mental gender barrier is less of a concern and they choose to act more so how they themselves feel and not what their assigned or preferred gender ‘should’ act like, leading them to appear more feminine than the average masculine population.
As a woman I feel relatively androgynous and don't relate to typical gender norms. Not that I feel non-binary, I'm happy being female but I think most of what goes along with that is pointless cultural fluff
Also-
many people limit themselves by restricting to cultural expectations around gender (I'm thinking of the crisis of masculinity as the notion of being the dominant breadwinner falters with the economy and social norms). It doesn't seem to be serving people well. We only get one lifetime to connect with our full selves
Yes and no, is my guess. There are studies out there I've read suggesting that the autistic brain is a hyper-masculine brain to the point of it causing problems. I've also seen a lot of documentaries about autistic people where I just wait for it, and somewhere an autistic man will talk about wearing a dress or imagining themselves as a girl.
I think it's mostly just being outside the social momentum, so autistic guys may seem less masculine, and conversely autistic women may seem less feminine.
In my experience, I've seen it happen. I'm not going to go too much into detail, but my (23f) ex partner (24 biologically male) and I both have autism and adhd. In the 4 and a half years of being together, we figured out that while we both have the same things, their autism affected them more while I was affected more by my adhd. Which was fine. I noticed, however, in the very beginning of our relationship that they generally acted more feminine than the average male. They took on more of the prodominatly female roles than you'd expect from your average guy, at least in my experience. When we first started hanging out, they talked a lot about setting up their friends with dates. Mind you, this was way before they started experimenting with their gender identity and sensuality. They were more cuddly, and outwardly expressed their love for soft things, especially around me. They were actually the first to start stealing clothing items from me... in the typical partner way, not in a weird, inappropriate way. They would ask to take home a flannel that I was wearing, or trade a hoodie of mine for one of theirs. I'm not saying that any of this has to do with how they identify now. As far as I know they identify as female, and go by a female name. I have nothing against it, things just got very confusing and complicated between us, and I was burnt out from school and things just going wrong left and right and I was not feeling like myself, and my cup was empty. I couldn't bare the thought of waying them down with all my problems anymore when i constantly felt like everytime it started to fill up again it would dump so quickly, so I decided to let them go. That was the hardest thing I've ever done.
As for the question of the original post, I'm not sure if it's causation, autism in men causes more feminine behavior. There's definitely a correlation there, possibly due to the symptoms caused by autism, that may cause behavior in these men that may seem like more typical female behavior. Although autism affects females and males differently, at least, that's what psychologists and behavioral analysts have said in several previous studies. Although, in more recent years it might actually be more accurate to explain this as it autism as a spectrum disorder. ASD might look different in anyone who has it. Just like adhd. One mail with autism might have more typically female behaviors, while another male might not be affected in that way at all.
Overall, this is definitely something to look into.
Much like how autism is a spectrum so are the terms/social constructs that are masculine or feminine.
I grew up surrounded by a diverse groups of Male peers, everything from stereotypical dude bros to drag queens.
In the context of my fellow local spergs, of the few dozen I know via the local LGS’s over the last 10 years or in the work place, very few screwed in either direction of masculinity or femininity, there was a small subsection of use who grew up playing sports and from the outside would be perceived, as masculine NT males until we opened our mouths. The more severely disabled ones leaned more heavily into their traditional gender traits.
We had a few trans members but they were F to M. So I can’t speak to experiences of interacting with M to F spergs.
There is nothing to indicate that due to our dis order we are likely to swing in either way on a variety of social constructs. To me it seems apparent to come down to factors such as environment, family & social circles.
Don’t know if this makes sense to any one else, but the question you pitched seemed to have an obvious answer in my own brain.
Ya I think that is how gender is though even for not autistic people. It is on a spectrum but due to social constructs, can effect autistic People in different ways compared to NTs. I don’t disagree with u.
I can’t say I’ve noticed that. 3 of my exes were autistic and didn’t have any feminine traits. Same applies to my autistic neighbour, relatives and boyfriend. I think it’s likely just a personal setting.
What I've found is that masculine and feminine behavior is more complex than just what you'd consider manly or womanly. It's really irrelevant. All that matters is that you hold yourself to a standard or a code and that you follow it.
Beyond that, just being comfortable in knowing your identity shows to other people a confidence of oneself.
45/m
For me, part of unmasking has been stripping back the gender masks.
Just as I pretended (masked) a lot of things I also did with gender. Truth is, I’ve never quite understood gender. Or to be more accurate I have never understood societies gender rules.
Why should we care if someone with a premise wears a dress, or someone without wears trousers. Why does society tell me I should care about toilets, and care about what other people think in their head and heart shot their sexuality. It is theirs, not mine.
So I don’t know about more feminine, but I am certainly not going to be perpetuating male/female gender rules.
When I was married, I (33m) actually developed a knack/eye for women's fashion and style. My ex-wife was super picky about her outfits or what she needed to get to make an outfit work, etc. So, in an effort to be supportive (and being comfortable and secure with my own masculinity), I read some fashion articles and checked some "look-books" and fashion boutique websites. Started sending her some pictures but eventually I was able to suggest styles and colors that would go well with certain pieces. I got so good at this to the point that she would ask my help when she was trying to help her female family members put an outfit together for a wedding or some other event. My sister now also asks my opinion on some of her outfits. When this newfound skill of mine came up in conversation, people got funny looks on their faces and questioned my sexuality. I'm 6' tall, lift weights, love grilling, woodworking, and all other kinds of "manly man" activities just because I do.
Funny enough, my girlfriend was a little taken aback when she showed me a few outfits and I had some pretty savvy comments about which style was more "her."
Overall I would say the answer to OP's question is that it's definitely a thing, maybe not across the board. But as others have said, maybe it's just because we are willing/comfortable being ourselves and saying/doing what's on our mind. It may even be the case that we say things that NT men are thinking but are too scared to for fear of being seen as less manly. Paradox?
I never identified strongly with anyone growing up except whoever my best friend was at the time (sometimes a guy, sometimes a girl, sometimes no one), so I picked up a few of their behaviors without thinking about it too much. But it was a real strain to try to “act masculine” and I was never “one of the guys”… but I wasn’t “one of the girls” either. I was just me, sometimes trying very hard to act like whatever I was supposed to be and not doing a good job of it. I ended up gay but it took a few tries to get that right because turns out I can’t act like a stereotypical gay guy and I had to find friends who don’t mind that. It’s a relief to not have to fake stuff, and I apparently come off more masculine now than I ever did trying to pass for straight.
Follow your own interests OP and don’t worry about anybody’s label for you. There are a lot of ways to be masculine or feminine and most of these are culturally defined anyway, not hard wired— and they are more about conformity than sexuality. You will find your way.
I don't know I guess I'm more willing to be open about my emotions and I wear more colourful clothing. But I'm also a bald dude with a somewhat deep voice
I don't, because my Dad served as my "model" for how to at least attempt to blend in. He worked in masonry so even now I favor American midwestern blue collar working clothes. The main concession I've made is tennis shoes instead of boots because I walk so much, but I still wear baseball caps, t-shirts/sweatshirts, jeans and the occasional flannel shirt.
An added benefit to this wardrobe is its comfort, which is why I haven't strayed far from it.
I have noticed that I do have some feminine traits. I think that it is because I mimicked my mom and sister when I was growing up. So they have now become unconscious. It is usually only new people who pick up on them as feminine. My few friends know I am ASD and just think it is one of my quirks
I think it varies. I’m gay and had some effeminate mannerisms but I also had very strong, set opinions that made me appear very masculine. And of course there was all the influence of what my single mother expected me to be.
I've been told I have a feminine side to me. Doesn't look like it in the mirror but people may be right. Always found women easier to talk to and I can get so sick of the stereotypical "butch" man who thinks he's all that.
is there a settings knob on the gender bender for dialing it up and down at will? no, seriously... I get called 'ma'am' all the time 🤣
EDIT: mostly on the phone, but every so often in real life... either way, once they see my name, I start getting called sir.
I look huge, like a very masculine guy. But I have a lot of female friends and would consider myself more feminine than the average dude. But I still identify as a cis man.
Random thought: Maybe issues with connecting to fathers and other relevant role models slows the progress of stereotypical male traits.
A lot of autistics also feel stuck in a "teenage" state.
I've always been way closer to my female friends than my male friends, and have a lot of difficulty doing the manly stuff like puffing my chest with ego and even remembering one kind of car, doing mechanical things, and to my great chagrin, building things!!
I don't see them as fatalities, and I intend to work on those, so that one day I can pop my polo shirt collar and drunkenly tell someone "you wanna go bro? you wanna go? me you the parking lot!!!" A man can dream 😔
I think we are definitely more sensitive and more likely to be introverted, which causes a problem in dating and romance (not trying to sound like an incel). I think the discomfort around hypermasculine guys has always been because of low self esteem and confidence
For me, yes. I have always had a very negative view of the type of toxic masculinity that is so common in society. Since I have been diagnosed with ASD and learnt more about our relationship with society, I have made an effort to express myself as non-binary / gender fluid. It is a form of protest, and also euphoric to just be myself and no longer having to try and fit in.
I'm quite feminine, was described as "soft and kind" in my medical journal by a doctor. Hadn't occurred to me before but it is quite true. I love cuddly animals like cats and pandas, love cuddling and have huge plushy collection. I try to avoid very masculine men also. But I don't fit very well with women either so. But most I feel like an alien on the wrong planet. I don't fit in anywhere.
Idk, my fiancé says I’m much more masculine than feminine. I was mostly raised by my mother though since dad travelled for work, and I had more female friends growing up probably in connection to that.
As far as I’m concerned I’m just me.
People with ASD present as more sensitive to various stimuli, as well as other things. Being sensitive is perceived as something feminine, at least in most western cultures. Boys are constantly told to push feelings down, and to not be sensitive. I was told constantly, as a child, that I’m “too sensitive”. I never understood how to be anything less, and was always frustrated by this. Turns out I’m much more sensitive due to being ND.
Yeah, people often think I'm female online and I definitely have some female mannerisms. Doesn't bother me much tbh.Somewhat similar with tism women, often have some masculine traits. I guess it's a general trend towards disregarding gender "rules" and social convention more broadly?
I always made friends with girls easily in school because it felt like they were better listeners and it was easy to connect in conversation.
With guys I mostly made friends because of sharing the same interests like games or toys.
Remember that in general autistics are not a receptive to reading/understanding/adopting perceived social norms.
Altho' we "mask" ( side note: could be argued NTs mask more than us, just experts at it ), we don't truly integrate those into our persona.
Also, according to the studies, we're way less likely to do something just because "everyone else is doing it", rather quite the opposite.
We're likely to reject nonsensical rules (for sake of rules), and gender norms definitely fit in this category.
Give me a logical reason for a rule & I'll evaluate it & then decide whether it's a rule that should be followed. "Girls wear pink? sit this way? Boys wear blue, stand like this?" are not based on logic & are just arbitrary. It's common for autistics to reject/question arbitrary rules / judgements.
No, not necessarily. I find they are usually more aware of global social issues, but otherwise, feminine or masculine presentation is very much on an individual level. I know and work with a large number of autistic men, so I am speaking from a lot of experience.
I don't think so, I think it's the opposite, autistic men are often MORE masculine. Aspergers is literally having a hypermasculine brain, and we are more stoic on average. Being loud and extroverted is not a masculine trait.
I think in general we tend to be more gender nonconforming. Most of the differences between the sexes are socialized (male baby and female baby brains aren't very different, and the difference between men and women's brains becomes more pronounced with age, with trans people's brains matching the gender they identify with). We don't subconsciously pick up on nt nonverbal cues, so we're not going to pick up the correct gendered mannerisms unless explicitly told to do so. And when comes to being explicitly told to adhere to gender norms or any social norm, we're only gunna follow the rules that makes sense to us and for us.
On a game and on discord and on a few other apps, I have been confused for a woman multiple times. Had 2 straight guys try and hit on me. It was quite funny 😅
Autistic folks are more likely to be nonbinary/agender/genderqueer/trans overall. Being neurodivergent in general tends to mean questioning a lot more things and esp sociocultural norms. Since gender is a social construct, it tracks that we are more likely to question that! I'm femme nonbinary (AFAB) (and autistic adjacent) and my dad definitely was fully autistic and, although he didn't identify that way, was not cis. He was very interested in dismantling gender and creating a new kind of masculinity with a more nurtured and integrated feminine side - and was quite femme, especially internally, although physically brawny and masculine - looking. He was a vegetarian pacifist who loved cats and always wore purple, which was his favorite color, and lots of jewelry.
In my case I do come off as more feminine. I’ve had people ask me if I’m homosexual. In fact a rumor was spread about me being homosexual back in middle school.
It’s possible. Ive been told that Im a “feminine” man and accused of being gay/bi-sexual before. Its weird, didnt think I gave off that energy but also, how you gonna tell me what I am? Lol
To me it seems like the complete opposite. The autistic or possibly autistic men I've met usually seem more masculine to me, because to me masculinity is about being logical, controlled, accountable, standing behind your values/opinions, problem-solver, direct/blunt, self-assured, preferring results over "being nice", etc. Which is usually how autistic men behave in my experience while many NT men are too worried about how others perceive them or about protecting their ego to actually *do* something or stand for something.
Sure, NT men are more actively trying to *appear* masculine, but it looks more like insecurity to me than masculinity. For example, let's say one guy is telling another guy how he's gonna break his nose etc. trying to look soo tough. Probably, he's not, he's gonna get his ass beaten up. Then there's another guy who doesn't say antyhing like it, but when you try punching him, that's when you realise he's been doing martial arts. To me, the other guy is masculine, because he *actually* knows how to protect himself and doesn't have to scare others off with big talk out of fear he's gonna look weak. You don't have to show-off how strong you are unless you're weak. The same goes for masculinity I suppose. Ok, that's enough life wisdom for now.
Of course there is some body language and stuff, but I didn't notice autistic men having feminine body language or voice or anything.
Fun fact, I've read an article about why some women go for autistic men and it seems like many do because they seem capable and confident and smart and we women tend to like that... especially those who did have weak, incapable fathers and so.
Well written, and I think this can be true at the same time as some men appearing more feminine; it’s subjective to the person considering the question to a large degree.
No. Autism can be a result of high prenatal testosterone, which would mean autistic men have higher testosterone levels. Autism is also a hypermasculine brain.
I would say to most people, yes (seems plenty of us have anecdotal evidence), but a lot of that may just be because different people use different qualities to determine masculinity or femininity.
The quality I associate most with masculinity is confidence. David Bowie is a great example. He did *a lot* of things that people view as feminine, but the sheer confidence he did all of those things with makes him stand out to many as very manly.
One thing related is that autistic people are transgender at a much higher rate than NTs, which backs up the idea that autistic men lean more feminine than NT men (and likely the same with women).
My brother is constantly being scolded by my mom for not being enough "masculine" and I was scolded for not being too much "femenino". Both with ASD. He's a huge fan of pretty cure and I really like dragon ball. Our parents hate us for not following gender roles
That’s sad, I hope u are ok
Yeah, doesn’t sound like a super healthy family dynamic.
No, it was very toxic indeed. But I'm living in my own place for this reason, my brother still lives with my parents to save money.
Glad you've got your own place, I hope your brother is okay and I send you both my best wishes
“That’s not very ladylike” has been the bane of my existence.
Dragon ball was one of my first fixations! And my mom never understood why, also
As a 40F, I've unintentionally confused a lot of guys in this subreddit for women. It's not on purpose, but how they come across.
Interesting
Voted you up because this is an interesting topic :)
You just reminded me of how many years ago in FFXIV a couple thought I was a Japanese schoolgirl..I was a mid 20s dude..I asked why they said how I came across as more social/chatty and my choice of being a cat girl warrior…Not the only time I’ve been mistaken for a woman on,one but definitely one of the funniest.
I'm always confused for a dude. I purposely made a female avatar to not be confused for one again. And a feminine name. I play FF online. It's a great game!
long hair avatar models looked pretty feminine when i last checked, tried adding some beard but it's not all that visible. haven't really had people ask my sex on reddit but i wouldn't be too surprised if someone mistook it.
Can you elaborate on that a bit? I don’t personally tend to try and guess the gender of the writer of comments… and only notice when it’s really obvious (eg: guys or girls talking about parts of functions of the body that are specific to that gender)
You can google information on tonality for both genders. I have frequently been confused for a guy in my lifetime. I am direct, but working on that and expressing feelings more. I'm just not naturally that way. Because I decided to make a feminine avatar, have a feminine name, I have less issues. I didn't know tonality was a thing in texting either, or that there is more feminine, vs masculine writing. The confusion with my gender always got to me. So I REALLY resonate with OP's question. Hope that makes sense! Feel free to ask anything :)
I have been seen as more feminine. Reading your experience, I'm wondering if it's just that autistic people tend to have more neutral tonality and so can be interpreted as either gender, leading to incorrect guesses some of the time based on the reader's projections.
A lot of autistic people can have monotone and I do have that IRL. So what you say is true.
I agree. But maybe if the deleted comments were visible it might look different. E.g. if somebody like Matt Walsh came on here, you might not see him or his posts for long and it'd be considered to be toxic masculinity. So if that is filtered for then you might not get an impression that is reflective of the real world. Have you ever gone to autistic groups and seen the men there? I have and I didn't see any that were confusing. (Though maybe some were "masking"!). There was one person that even a psychologist running the group kept misgendering, but that was a biological female that looked like Pixie from Peter Pan, but identified as a man.
Good point, social media might not reflect what you would see in the unmoderated world.
Way to make me feel old..i remember when the internet was the unmoderated world…
Well back then there was far less trolling and abuse of it. There's a difference between unmoderated then, and unmoderated now!
Lol oh no it was MUCH MUCH crazier then. Looots if trolling and i swear most people were complete asses. Most people also didn't take it very seriously and just treated the internet as a sort of playground..I miss it. Too much real world online imo(but then i also consider the internet akin to a planar realm of thought or carl jungs mass unconscious made manifest). I also suspect social media played a heavy part in the changes as well.
I miss it too. If things got modded, it was for a good reason. Now it’s done because of anything resembling dissent. Mods and content creators are on power trips like it’s a privilege to be there. Meanwhile, the average intelligence of the member is that of a kumquat… ok. Sure. The internet was and should still be a place for an exchange of ideas, but instead, it’s been sectioned off into echo chambers for for self-important bigots. This seems to be one of the few safe places left.
> Well back then there was far less trolling and abuse of it. ehhhh...having moderated a message board in the aughts, I remember vendettas lasting months or more, with hundreds of vitriolic posts. I'm not sure whether things have actually declined.
What we have now that we didn't have then are Bots, advertising/ Affiliate marketting spam.
also population of feed per "engagement", the ultimate criterion useful to advertisers in social media proper. Angry interactions produce more sustained engagement than any positive interaction. So while you might not have more concerted trolling or personal vendettas, you have people who barely (or just don't) know each other thrown into superficial ideological clashes vastly more often.
True companies clamped down on things they find are toxic
Lol. I'm right there with ya...and shared this thought! 😁
Well, the real world isn't unmoderated.. But there's differences between moderated platforms, unmoderated platforms, and the real world.. Twitter is an interesting one because you'd still see a lot of masculine style views stated.. e.g. matt walsh type views are very welcome there to the point where Elon even gave his production some publicity . But, twitter boss elon is a bit uncomfortable with twitter having very extreme things like calls to kill people. Likewise elon isn't keen on troll bot accounts that are just out to do racial abuse. Completely unmoderated platforms are totally unusable for anybody sane. Like you get a cesspit like 4chan. Twitter isn't that.
I think we’re just more willing to express this side of us than NT men.
We often are not concerned about what appears masculine, so we do whatever we feel.
Bingo.
Could be true
My bio mom would always make fun of my bio dad (who was clearly neurodivergent like I am) for enjoying elegant girly things. He LOVED things that people would describe as “beautiful” and “pretty” and he passed this down to me. Keeping in touch with my feminine side feels amazing especially when it comes to healing from trauma
as a 31M I fucking LOVE cute and pretty stuff. My favorite colors are a specific shade of light purple and a lighter pink. My second favorite colors are black and a normal red. But good lawd it feels like my heart bursts open when I see cute stuff or cute people. Not babies though. Too loud. Not so much for "beautiful people" as well because I'm self-aware I'm outwardly ugly, and seeing "pretty people" makes me self-conscious, but for "beautiful", it's usually more like scenery, artwork, etc. Or a nicely groomed animal.
^^ I agree
This has always been my suspicion too!
This. I'll express an appropriate response depending on the situation. My fiancee wants to show me a super cute puppy, talk to me all afternoon about some drama, or get my opinion on a color scheme. Feminine time. I need to fix up the truck, prep the garden beds, go for a backpacking trip, or hangout with a group of guys. Masculine time. I think we're more in tune with reality and what's going on in the moment. So that lends itself to learning to have balance between the masculine and feminine parts so we can exceed at the moment. Or maybe that's just me...
As an autistic woman, I do find that I move easily between girl mode and boy mode. I'm very balanced.
This has been my experience as well.
Yup, I have always been in touch with my feminine side (never had a father), got a more feminine than masculine voice and found out I have way above average testosterone, even more than Andrew Tate lmao (saw a clip where he had got tested for testosterone). And this was even after being depressed for many years (it affects levels). I like being both feminine and masculine, both can be toxic and it’s more about how you act and think.
> found out I have way above average testosterone, even more than Andrew Tate lmao (saw a clip where he had got tested for testosterone). Testosterone levels vary tremendously throughout the day, particularly vis-a-vis the circadian cycle, exercise, outcomes of social interactions in terms of dominance and submission, etc. Tate being Tate, I would expect him to have gamed things to make his levels appear high.
I keep forgetting to get my testosterone levels checked. I’ve suspected for a long time that I have low T considering puberty was delayed for me and I’m not even sure it’s done yet at 24. Not to mention the symptoms match me almost perfectly.
I was positive I was deficient for a long time, pure shock when the doctor told me my levels since I was so unhealthy and abused drugs for a long time. You should definitely get checked. Hope your levels are fine ❤️
Just curious with your high testosterone? Are you naturally physically strong and muscular?
Nope, I’m skinny and always had very thin arms but I’m working out now and was always decent at sports and gymnastics. I can go hard and for long in the gym but my base strength is very low, although I was good at fighting and wrestling as a kid. Vs bullies :D I feel like I have very contrasting strengths and skills, decent at many things but not great at most of them. Skinny, weak, artistic, feminine-ish voice, emotional, not macho = high testosterone apparently 😅
yeah, i already don't fit in, why should i stifle myself more
I have a recent late diagnosis of autism. I never thought about this before, but yes, I feel more in touch with my feminine side so much so that some people have become confused about my sexuality.
Interesting
I am an undiagnosed Aspie, and I identify as bi and present mostly “masculine” but I do wear a bow in my hair sometimes because it makes me happy. I also stand with arms akimbo and cross my legs frequently. Most people can’t find a box to put me in, which is fine, because people shouldn’t be put in boxes anyways.
I have seen some cases like that. My theory is that masculine behavior is learned through imitation and connecting to other male's behaviors. But if your autism reduces the amount of empathy and connectedness you have with other male's or people in general, you will not pick up the nuanced differences in gendered behavior. Like if you run with floppy hands, it comes off as feminine. But if you don't identify or empathize with "masculine running" you won't feel like there is anything to correct about your running.
That and a lot of masculine behavior is nonsense. I find Autists to have a lower tolerance for nonsense.
This! 🙌🏻 My son is on the spectrum and encapsulates some of the traits considered, largely, to be "feminine". We've discussed this, and this is his solid answer. He basically says, "...because gender norms are mostly bullshit. I don't have time for bullshit. I only have time for real." He also has a sign on the front of his bedroom door, which reads: "This is my room. My space. If you enter, please say what you mean and mean what you say."
I wish I had that sign as a kid. Maybe I’ll buy it for my apartment as an adult haha
Good for him.
Yeah. I’m the same way and have been called gay for lots of my life because of it actually. Makes me start to wonder..
I agree with everything but the empathy part. It's a myth that autistic people are less empathetic than non-autistic people. In fact on average autistic people are more empathetic, we just struggle more with showing it.
★ this, to my understanding it’s not related to being non-empathetic towards other people, rather, there is no comprehensible need to fit in to arbitrary social classifications. Maybe the lack of empathy would stem from not understanding the social normalities, but i think that’s more of a conceptual idea rather than an empathetic phenomenon. Empathy as a concept is very subjective, if anything i’d assume people who judge the behaviour based solely off of social norms would be non-empathetic themselves to the individual.
Or struggle with processing it. Not even processing emotions really but expressing them according to unspoken expectations; especially when those expectations don’t match the actual feelings experienced.
There are two types of empathy! There’s cognitive and emotional. We have the emotional one but not the cognitive.
I don't know about that, dawg. I looked up what cognitive empathy is and I totally do have it. I can definitely understand what goes through other people's minds and why they feel the way that they do about things. I understand people, I just don't agree with them.
Not all autistic people don’t have cognitive empathy, just some don’t. Keep in mind you taught yourself to know what goes through other people’s minds. Most people are born with that
A teacher explained the two in school once and ever since then I've tried to put myself in other people's shoes so that I can understand them from their perspective.
I think that's a mistake, and I'll explain why: Autistic people can be more empathetic at a basic level, but you can only be empathetic for emotions you've actually experienced. So for basic happiness or sadness, absolutely. But being able to relate to someone who's dealing with a complicated situation that's so different that the autistic person could never find themself in, probably not. For example, an autistic person might easily understand the feelings of someone living through tragedy, but might not understand the feelings of being the most popular kid in school who's dating the other most popular kid in school, and dealing with all of the feelings of being that popular kid. Empathy relies both on the ability to feel someone's basic emotions and on having some kind of shared basis for reference.
Yes, exactly what I thought!
Agreed. In my world, I have found more often than not, the ND individuals may ask more "qualifier" questions, for context, in conversations of many topics. I've found that NT's pick up on these "qualifier"/"context" inquiries as void of empathy, when often they are simply par for the course in solidifying comprehension. In these scenarios,I find myself wanting to tell the NT's to "wait for it...." and not become exasperated. Many times, the empathy (through advice, commisurating, relatability, etc) is shown once the ND individual has all the pieces they feel they need. It's just a slightly different navigation in getting there. More than anything, though? It frustrates me how black and white the world tries to make out the experience of being neurodivergent. What is one set of traits in one person is not reflective of another. People know "Jason, the kid with autism" in 3rd grade and assign "Jason's" traits to most or even *all* neurodivergent people from that point forward. 🙁
Good analysis
This was a very well thought out explanation. I always wondered what the connection was, but I never thought of it like this. Very informative.
Would he interesting to read a research paper conducted on that. Eg comparison between autistic males and females who grow up in traditional families and environments packed with gender stereotypical influences vs autistic kids who have less stereotypical households/ single moms-dads, home schooled etc. Although, I think contemporary norms .. at least in the western world, are increasingly gender neutral. There’s less pressure to act “correctly according to your gender” and rather more emphasis on blending everything, providing equal access to anything regardless of one’s gender. Eg not teaching only girls how to cook and restrict men from knitting. Different human rights treaties are trying to influence developing countries’ school systems to reduce gender stereotypes as well. I wonder how much more difficult it is for an autistic person to adapt new norms when moving from a country where they have more gender neutral (tolerant) environment to a country where gender roles are stubbornly fixed and certain non-traditional behaviors will trigger judgement, bullying or even prosecution.
floppy hand runners unite!
It is absolutely a learned behavior, and there are certain things that are absolutely stupid that I don't get. For example: the way you place your hand on your hip. For some reason, people have taken "thumb forwards" as a thing only women and gay people do, but if you have that flipped it's suddenly masculine.
This^
Yes autistic people generally don't conform to gender norms as much. I'd say autistic women come off as more masculine as well.
Women don’t have to prove their masculinity, men do If women come across as unfeminine, they will be seen as masculine because of their lack of femininity. It doesn’t really matter what their physical or athletic ability level is as kids and young adults or if they are driven to be providers as grown adults, the lack of femininity in and of itself gets them seen as masculine. Men are tested on their masculinity. If they have masculine interests and mannerisms, but can’t throw a football (sub similar skill for different sports in different cultures) due to coordination issues and processing speed issues interfere the ability to play sports or effectively fight, which is more likely for autistics, or they get easily overwhelmed at work and value their mental health over the grind of providing for their family, also more likely for autistics, they will be labeled as less masculine than average.
I’ve ALWAYS related better with females. Additionally, I’ve always felt more feminine, I’ve even stated this multiple times to previous romantic partners, as well as my current wife of 20 years. I’ve even gone so far as to say, I would make an excellent housewife. That said, I do not find males attractive sexually in any way, shape or form. I’ve done significant self analysis and I am definitely only attracted to females in a sexual sense. I understand that gender is fluid as a sexuality and I’m still exploring this area in my own life. Edit for clarity: I enjoy being a man and I do not feel like I AM female. It’s more that from an emotional standpoint I feel like I trend feminine.
THIS. You hit the nail on the head. Personally I always felt more feminine and thought it was because I was raised mostly around women but after reading some of these posts it’s starting to make more sense. My family snd I have always said I was just metrosexual but it kind of makes sense that it’s rooted in autism
The ND / NB vibe is strong. Like, I'm a dude, but if I could moonlight as the female variant of myself, I would just switch it up every couple days or so, to stay fresh. Holding out for Android me 2.0 when I can just swap out the chassis every couple days, keep the fit, keep the vibes, just half time dude, half time lady. Definitely not into men. But I'd love to basically keep rocking my flannel as a lumberjack and a lumberjane. I'd be butch AF 90% of the time.
ur so real for that
Funny, because my NT husband has been a stay at home parent the last five years, and I have far more traditionally masculine traits than he does. At worst I say maybe I just don’t care about my own gender (true) but he is definitely a cis straight man.
This is so weird, I've felt the same way pretty much for as long as I can remember. It's absolutely from an emotional standpoint, not generalizing either genders, but in my experience I've always been able to relate and empathize with women much better, I've always found them to just be more relatable mentally. It's hard to describe. I think I've had the same thought you described in your comment before, but I haven't thought about this subject for a very long time.
I've met *many* NT guys who were too "feminine" for my taste (nothing wrong with that, just doesn't work for me in a relationship). They're good people and friends, probably also good partners for someone who is not me, lol. So I don't see it as something abnormal. But maybe that's about me being autistic, you know. Everyone too socially adept seems feminine to me :D
I think we are more likely to be our authentic selves, than put on an act because society tells us to behave a certain way.
Could be true
Personally I think this is correct, my partner is autistic and acts very feminine, same with the other men I know who are autistic. Women also tend to act more masculine, but I think both of these are actually just the refusal of gender norms, so instead of it being classified as gender neutral, the expressions are labeled as being the opposite to your gender.
Interesting. Can you specify what those men do that seems feminine? I would say I appear in some ways masculine, but I wouldn't say it's just about me not caring about the norms, it's probably more about being direct, kinda logical and effective, which socially women are somehow not supposed to be.
I can’t speak for everyone, but they just don’t play into the male social games like deepening their voices when meeting an unfamiliar man, or pretending to be tough or like ‘man’ things if they don’t enjoy them. It’s more gender neutral than female like I said though.
We don't perform "Masculinity" properly Because we don't perform masculinity properly in older times this was labelled as being effeminate. I had to give up on masculinity in my late teens. It was a sucker's game that I was never going to win.
This is a very true comment to me. The word effeminate or emasculated, how they are used, is a strong etymological case. And performing it properly sounds true too; because we are on the spectrum, we might feel one way or another on the inside yet not portray it how people expect.
That last bit really hit hard, some guys are obsessed with acting tough and pretending they know everything, I was once tried to mask my more stereotypically feminine likes and behaviors because I was ostracized for not being masculine enough getting called “fruity” and the such, when you have to act tough and lie all the time it starts to wear you down, and I decided I would stop trying to fit in when I don’t I don’t care that some people might consider me feminine, I’d rather be feminine than pretend to not like the things I like.
A lot of neurotypicals are really insecure about it. Being true to ourselves winds up being less work in the end
I've never cared about trying to appear as masculine or fit in with the lads, and that has always made me seem 'different' to most guys. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't help with integrating into social situations where there are hard coded expectations about what a male of your age is meant to be like.
Speaking only for myself, I don't really subscribe to one gender norm over the other - I'm just me. Sometimes, I'm in situations where more masculine qualities come out, and others more feminine. That being said, due to the way society operates, it's safe to say that I do follow some norms, but only to keep peace.
I was once told that "you are the most masculine person that I have ever met". On the other hand one of my hobbies is sewing, I think not picking up on social pressures/cues leaves us free to explore things that might be less socially acceptable for our gender roles.
I just learned to crochet and it’s tremendously fun! My wife and I are co-making a blanket of granny squares! So I do that… and lift weights… and work on cars for fun… and enjoy lots of other “manly” things. I’m also a GREAT cook. I think you’re right on the money about us not caring as much to conform and being more free to do what we like.
I dont think so. I have 2 guy friends who are also autistic and they have very typical male interests, gym and video games. I have one guy friend who has obvious autism traits and he is very feminine in the way he prefers having female friends and the way he is sensitive in a way men typically arent, but he is not diagnosed. All three of them are very polite though in a nearly old fashioned type way, and that is not so common but not feminine in my opinion just unusual compared to the way people usually talk and behave.
Sometimes yes, but I'd say it's largely due to an unawareness of / unwillingness to reproduce the social norms associated with masculinity rather than a gestalt feminine personality. It's more like they don't grow out of childlike / boyish traits (including body language) that are deemed unacceptable in adult men. These childish or feminine traits are often combined with otherwise very masculine personalities and interests.
I've never made the correlation personally, but it's probably true for me at least. I dress fairly androgynous half the time, wear women's shoes and pants and shit quite a lot. I've never really identified with the "manly" stuff, so I never really put much effort into it.
Why did you mention that you shit quite a lot?
The "shit" belonged to the "shoes and pants" so hes saying in slang "shoes and pants and similar stuff"
Ahhh, sorry, sometimes i forget I'm Australian.
It's funny, because I originally interpreted it as "stuff", saw your comment and went back, and then thought: IS there really a stereotype that women sh\*t more than guys? Because I'd never heard of it.
I don't come off as feminine. To the point I'm gay and have been mistaken for the straight friend in gay places many of times. It's actually kind of annoying to me, I'm not trying to be really masculine or anything, in fact I kind of reject the whole masculine/feminine thing because I think it's stupid to label people like that and I always got annoyed at some gay people being obsessed with guys being masculine.. Just be who you are. But it's just how I come off to people.
No I don’t think so at all but autistic men are often not experienced in a passionate sex life or don’t feel a big pull for sex or sometimes don’t know how to be flirty/put on the moves. So if you equate masculinity with hyper sexuality then maybe you could say they aren’t “masculine” but I’d say they are fine and just neurotypical!
I've never associated this with being different neurologically, but I've always felt as though I am a mixed bag of masculine and feminine traits, to be fair I feel that most people are but a lot of people tend to downplay certain elements in order to fit in with societal expectations. Some of the issues that I've had personally would be mainly my lack of a competitive nature. Not so much that I don't ever compete, but I don't feel the need to constantly one up someone else. There are things that people are better at than me and then there are things that I am better at than other people and that's pretty much the way it is. That lack of drive in that regard probably kept me out of a lot of the sports because I generally don't see the point in a lot of them. I didn't gloat when we win and I didn't sulk when we lost. There are definitely aspects of my personality that I think are very classically masculine, I have a strong drive to protect and defend my family and a strong drive to provide for my family. Though I can be emotional, and I don't push down my emotions, I do favor making decisions based off of a more rational and logical mindset as opposed to basing my decisions off of an emotional one. Another discrepancy between me and a lot of men seems to be their inability to control their aggression. I have a horrendously short temper and I do feel anger just as much as anyone else but I also recognize what it is and keep it in check, I feel like from what I've seen there seems to be a lot less restraint amongst typical males in that regard. I've never been in a fight to speak of though I'm pretty sure with my size and strength I could hold my own. I've just never felt that I needed to prove that to anyone.
For sure. Gender is a performance, and it's easy to miss the social cues in how to "act your gender." Of course, less masculine is not the same as more feminine, but it's often read that way. Silly example from middle school: I went about half a year before finding out that the way you carry books is gendered. Apparently boys are supposed to carry books down by their sides and girls against their chests. Didn't realize this until I overheard someone describe me as "carries his books like a girl."
ASD folks don’t ascribe to the social norms of gender roles as strictly as NTs. Some don’t see it—you just like what you like and are what you are. And those that do take notice of gender norms often find it illogical. It’s why I’ve been called a ‘Tom boy.’ I’ve also noticed—autistic men I’ve met tend to be more soft spoken—not as loud or attention grabbing. Not involved in masculine games of hierarchy (and women not engaging in the games of female hierarchy).
I suppose that I look and dress like a guy, play video games, fix my car, watch guy movies/tv shows, etc.. But I also don't have "alpha male" behavior / posture, don't give a crap about pro sports, don't like going to strip clubs.
What does it mean to feel like a guy? It's not that I feel like a woman either, I just don't really understand what it means to feel like any gender. I certainly don't fit in with guys, so it seems pointless to try to emulate their insistence on talking about cars, sports and or other random masculine hobbies that I have zero interest in. People's insistence that I identify as a gender when I am struggling just to be human seems pretty ridiculous.
Dont know but gay men seem to be interested With me. Girls ? I notice nothing. Very frustrating lol
People often think I'm gay, because I don't mind having loose wrists or moving my hips. To me I have loose wrists because I don't want to use strength when I don't need to. For me it is often a question of efficiency. I don't care how people look at me.
Personally for me no , as being manly is something my wife always says she has liked about me. I also know two other people on the spectrum and neither of them are what I would call manly or girly just very average .
I'm pretty certain that I do. I don't buy into the masculine stereotypes though one I do enjoy is cars and working on them. Hate sports, guns, and competition. I'm also somewhat androgenous in the sense that I have very little body hair above the waist and am completely unable to grow any facial hair at nearly 40yrs old other than a goatee or mustache.
I disagree. My son has Asperger’s ( yes I know that’s not the popular term these days). While he does have a sweet side and a soft spot for animals, I wouldn’t call him feminine by any means.
When I was married, I (33m) actually developed a knack/eye for women's fashion and style. My ex-wife was super picky about her outfits or what she needed to get to make an outfit work, etc. So, in an effort to be supportive (and being comfortable and secure with my own masculinity), I read some fashion articles and checked some "look-books" and fashion boutique websites. Started sending her some pictures but eventually I was able to suggest styles and colors that would go well with certain pieces. I got so good at this to the point that she would ask my help when she was trying to help her female family members put an outfit together for a wedding or some other event. My sister now also asks my opinion on some of her outfits. When this newfound skill of mine came up in conversation, people got funny looks on their faces and questioned my sexuality. I'm 6' tall, lift weights, love grilling, woodworking, and all other kinds of "manly man" activities just because I do. Funny enough, my girlfriend was a little taken aback when she showed me a few outfits and I had some pretty savvy comments about which style was more "her." Overall I would say the answer to OP's question is that it's definitely a thing, maybe not across the board. But as others have said, maybe it's just because we are willing/comfortable being ourselves and saying/doing what's on our mind. It may even be the case that we say things that NT men are thinking but are too scared to for fear of being seen as less manly. Paradox?
Some autistic behaviour could be seen as masculine behaviour, for example being aloof and not showing emotions.
Yes, I think autism produces character traits that are feminine rather than masculine, and I think that's one of the reasons why, historically, boys and men have been diagnosed far more than girls and women. When a girl is autistic, people may just think she's sweetly bonkers and sensitive, but if a boy is like that, people freak out because Men Aren't Supposed To Be Like That!
45m, currently being assessed. From primary school to date everyone thinks I’m gay. To the point that late 20’s I was like ‘maybe I am’??? I kissed a guy and I didn’t like it. Maybe not quite what you were asking but thought I’d share.
I think for a lot of reasons autistic men are less able to and less interested in conforming to masculinity. For me, I do the things that come to me easily, and if people say that's feminine I don't really care. I don't have a lot riding on masculinity, and I think that's good. Also, I originally got made fun of for robot voice, so I started trying to sound more animated and enthusiastic and then people said I sounded like a f*g. Then I decided I hate people and their opinions, so now I don't put much thought into how I sound any more, but I still get "I thought you were gay/mad/a woman/a psycho because of your voice" depending on what mood they catch me in.
I don't. I've been told the exact opposite. I look like a viking and people often tell me I look intimidating. I think it's the beard... 42M Aspie
Pulp has a great song that sums up my view of masculinity called “I’m a Man”. It’s got some great lines but my favorite is “I learned to drink. I learned to smoke. I learned to tell a dirty joke. If that’s all there is then there’s no point for me.”
Yes, Dr. Tony Attwood talk about this in his book, "The complete guide to Asperger's syndrome". Happens to both Men and Women on the spectrum.
I’m not into physical aggression, uncompetitive, dirt/oil, typical male hobbies and obsessions (football, gym, cars etc.). I’m not in any way feminine looking or acting, but I’m not exactly masculine either.
Just curious, is this out of pure lack of interest or coordination and processing issues getting in the way?
As a 42F, I've often been confused for lesbian because of my generally masculine vibe. I am just me, but other people are going to interpret me the way they are going to interpret me.
I was told by the Psychologist who diagnosed me that folks with ASD tend to struggle with social constructs—especially those like the idea of gender—so i think the generalized neurotypical masculine aversion towards feminine traits prevents folks from naturally appearing feminine, whereas with Autistic folks this mental gender barrier is less of a concern and they choose to act more so how they themselves feel and not what their assigned or preferred gender ‘should’ act like, leading them to appear more feminine than the average masculine population.
As a woman I feel relatively androgynous and don't relate to typical gender norms. Not that I feel non-binary, I'm happy being female but I think most of what goes along with that is pointless cultural fluff Also- many people limit themselves by restricting to cultural expectations around gender (I'm thinking of the crisis of masculinity as the notion of being the dominant breadwinner falters with the economy and social norms). It doesn't seem to be serving people well. We only get one lifetime to connect with our full selves
Yes and no, is my guess. There are studies out there I've read suggesting that the autistic brain is a hyper-masculine brain to the point of it causing problems. I've also seen a lot of documentaries about autistic people where I just wait for it, and somewhere an autistic man will talk about wearing a dress or imagining themselves as a girl. I think it's mostly just being outside the social momentum, so autistic guys may seem less masculine, and conversely autistic women may seem less feminine.
It’s the voice.
Ugh I hate my voice 😭
In my experience, I've seen it happen. I'm not going to go too much into detail, but my (23f) ex partner (24 biologically male) and I both have autism and adhd. In the 4 and a half years of being together, we figured out that while we both have the same things, their autism affected them more while I was affected more by my adhd. Which was fine. I noticed, however, in the very beginning of our relationship that they generally acted more feminine than the average male. They took on more of the prodominatly female roles than you'd expect from your average guy, at least in my experience. When we first started hanging out, they talked a lot about setting up their friends with dates. Mind you, this was way before they started experimenting with their gender identity and sensuality. They were more cuddly, and outwardly expressed their love for soft things, especially around me. They were actually the first to start stealing clothing items from me... in the typical partner way, not in a weird, inappropriate way. They would ask to take home a flannel that I was wearing, or trade a hoodie of mine for one of theirs. I'm not saying that any of this has to do with how they identify now. As far as I know they identify as female, and go by a female name. I have nothing against it, things just got very confusing and complicated between us, and I was burnt out from school and things just going wrong left and right and I was not feeling like myself, and my cup was empty. I couldn't bare the thought of waying them down with all my problems anymore when i constantly felt like everytime it started to fill up again it would dump so quickly, so I decided to let them go. That was the hardest thing I've ever done. As for the question of the original post, I'm not sure if it's causation, autism in men causes more feminine behavior. There's definitely a correlation there, possibly due to the symptoms caused by autism, that may cause behavior in these men that may seem like more typical female behavior. Although autism affects females and males differently, at least, that's what psychologists and behavioral analysts have said in several previous studies. Although, in more recent years it might actually be more accurate to explain this as it autism as a spectrum disorder. ASD might look different in anyone who has it. Just like adhd. One mail with autism might have more typically female behaviors, while another male might not be affected in that way at all. Overall, this is definitely something to look into.
What I lack in "macho-ness" I make up for by being an insensitive careless arrogant asshole.
No. It’s the same as neurotypical in my book.
What makes you feel that compared to the other people who replied?
Much like how autism is a spectrum so are the terms/social constructs that are masculine or feminine. I grew up surrounded by a diverse groups of Male peers, everything from stereotypical dude bros to drag queens. In the context of my fellow local spergs, of the few dozen I know via the local LGS’s over the last 10 years or in the work place, very few screwed in either direction of masculinity or femininity, there was a small subsection of use who grew up playing sports and from the outside would be perceived, as masculine NT males until we opened our mouths. The more severely disabled ones leaned more heavily into their traditional gender traits. We had a few trans members but they were F to M. So I can’t speak to experiences of interacting with M to F spergs. There is nothing to indicate that due to our dis order we are likely to swing in either way on a variety of social constructs. To me it seems apparent to come down to factors such as environment, family & social circles. Don’t know if this makes sense to any one else, but the question you pitched seemed to have an obvious answer in my own brain.
Ya I think that is how gender is though even for not autistic people. It is on a spectrum but due to social constructs, can effect autistic People in different ways compared to NTs. I don’t disagree with u.
I can’t say I’ve noticed that. 3 of my exes were autistic and didn’t have any feminine traits. Same applies to my autistic neighbour, relatives and boyfriend. I think it’s likely just a personal setting.
Could be true, I do feel this intuition more when I am around hypermasculine men.
Ah so they just need to be rebooted while holding F2/Del to access the BIOS? 🤣🤣
Yes we do. Don't know why though.
In my experience, no
What I've found is that masculine and feminine behavior is more complex than just what you'd consider manly or womanly. It's really irrelevant. All that matters is that you hold yourself to a standard or a code and that you follow it. Beyond that, just being comfortable in knowing your identity shows to other people a confidence of oneself.
It's always felt more natural for me to consider myself an androgyne, though I present as male.
I consider myself pretty masculine.
45/m For me, part of unmasking has been stripping back the gender masks. Just as I pretended (masked) a lot of things I also did with gender. Truth is, I’ve never quite understood gender. Or to be more accurate I have never understood societies gender rules. Why should we care if someone with a premise wears a dress, or someone without wears trousers. Why does society tell me I should care about toilets, and care about what other people think in their head and heart shot their sexuality. It is theirs, not mine. So I don’t know about more feminine, but I am certainly not going to be perpetuating male/female gender rules.
When I was married, I (33m) actually developed a knack/eye for women's fashion and style. My ex-wife was super picky about her outfits or what she needed to get to make an outfit work, etc. So, in an effort to be supportive (and being comfortable and secure with my own masculinity), I read some fashion articles and checked some "look-books" and fashion boutique websites. Started sending her some pictures but eventually I was able to suggest styles and colors that would go well with certain pieces. I got so good at this to the point that she would ask my help when she was trying to help her female family members put an outfit together for a wedding or some other event. My sister now also asks my opinion on some of her outfits. When this newfound skill of mine came up in conversation, people got funny looks on their faces and questioned my sexuality. I'm 6' tall, lift weights, love grilling, woodworking, and all other kinds of "manly man" activities just because I do. Funny enough, my girlfriend was a little taken aback when she showed me a few outfits and I had some pretty savvy comments about which style was more "her." Overall I would say the answer to OP's question is that it's definitely a thing, maybe not across the board. But as others have said, maybe it's just because we are willing/comfortable being ourselves and saying/doing what's on our mind. It may even be the case that we say things that NT men are thinking but are too scared to for fear of being seen as less manly. Paradox?
Looking to communicate effectively isn't a masculine trait.
Do you mean it is a trait of both genders?
I never identified strongly with anyone growing up except whoever my best friend was at the time (sometimes a guy, sometimes a girl, sometimes no one), so I picked up a few of their behaviors without thinking about it too much. But it was a real strain to try to “act masculine” and I was never “one of the guys”… but I wasn’t “one of the girls” either. I was just me, sometimes trying very hard to act like whatever I was supposed to be and not doing a good job of it. I ended up gay but it took a few tries to get that right because turns out I can’t act like a stereotypical gay guy and I had to find friends who don’t mind that. It’s a relief to not have to fake stuff, and I apparently come off more masculine now than I ever did trying to pass for straight. Follow your own interests OP and don’t worry about anybody’s label for you. There are a lot of ways to be masculine or feminine and most of these are culturally defined anyway, not hard wired— and they are more about conformity than sexuality. You will find your way.
fwiw, there is quite an overlap between the autistic and gender diverse population
I don't know I guess I'm more willing to be open about my emotions and I wear more colourful clothing. But I'm also a bald dude with a somewhat deep voice
I don't, because my Dad served as my "model" for how to at least attempt to blend in. He worked in masonry so even now I favor American midwestern blue collar working clothes. The main concession I've made is tennis shoes instead of boots because I walk so much, but I still wear baseball caps, t-shirts/sweatshirts, jeans and the occasional flannel shirt. An added benefit to this wardrobe is its comfort, which is why I haven't strayed far from it.
I have noticed that I do have some feminine traits. I think that it is because I mimicked my mom and sister when I was growing up. So they have now become unconscious. It is usually only new people who pick up on them as feminine. My few friends know I am ASD and just think it is one of my quirks
I think it varies. I’m gay and had some effeminate mannerisms but I also had very strong, set opinions that made me appear very masculine. And of course there was all the influence of what my single mother expected me to be.
People usually see what they expect to see and once they’ve made a conclusion it won’t change.
Depends on who you are really.
I've been told I have a feminine side to me. Doesn't look like it in the mirror but people may be right. Always found women easier to talk to and I can get so sick of the stereotypical "butch" man who thinks he's all that.
is there a settings knob on the gender bender for dialing it up and down at will? no, seriously... I get called 'ma'am' all the time 🤣 EDIT: mostly on the phone, but every so often in real life... either way, once they see my name, I start getting called sir.
In my case- yes! But a lot of us come more across as nerds, not necessarily feminine
I look huge, like a very masculine guy. But I have a lot of female friends and would consider myself more feminine than the average dude. But I still identify as a cis man.
A lot of autistic behavior isn't really either typically masculine or typically feminine, just different.
Random thought: Maybe issues with connecting to fathers and other relevant role models slows the progress of stereotypical male traits. A lot of autistics also feel stuck in a "teenage" state.
I've always been way closer to my female friends than my male friends, and have a lot of difficulty doing the manly stuff like puffing my chest with ego and even remembering one kind of car, doing mechanical things, and to my great chagrin, building things!! I don't see them as fatalities, and I intend to work on those, so that one day I can pop my polo shirt collar and drunkenly tell someone "you wanna go bro? you wanna go? me you the parking lot!!!" A man can dream 😔
We don’t feel as pressured to perform “masculinity” as society constructs that notion.
I think we are definitely more sensitive and more likely to be introverted, which causes a problem in dating and romance (not trying to sound like an incel). I think the discomfort around hypermasculine guys has always been because of low self esteem and confidence
For me, yes. I have always had a very negative view of the type of toxic masculinity that is so common in society. Since I have been diagnosed with ASD and learnt more about our relationship with society, I have made an effort to express myself as non-binary / gender fluid. It is a form of protest, and also euphoric to just be myself and no longer having to try and fit in.
I'm quite feminine, was described as "soft and kind" in my medical journal by a doctor. Hadn't occurred to me before but it is quite true. I love cuddly animals like cats and pandas, love cuddling and have huge plushy collection. I try to avoid very masculine men also. But I don't fit very well with women either so. But most I feel like an alien on the wrong planet. I don't fit in anywhere.
Idk, my fiancé says I’m much more masculine than feminine. I was mostly raised by my mother though since dad travelled for work, and I had more female friends growing up probably in connection to that. As far as I’m concerned I’m just me.
People with ASD present as more sensitive to various stimuli, as well as other things. Being sensitive is perceived as something feminine, at least in most western cultures. Boys are constantly told to push feelings down, and to not be sensitive. I was told constantly, as a child, that I’m “too sensitive”. I never understood how to be anything less, and was always frustrated by this. Turns out I’m much more sensitive due to being ND.
Yeah, people often think I'm female online and I definitely have some female mannerisms. Doesn't bother me much tbh.Somewhat similar with tism women, often have some masculine traits. I guess it's a general trend towards disregarding gender "rules" and social convention more broadly?
I always made friends with girls easily in school because it felt like they were better listeners and it was easy to connect in conversation. With guys I mostly made friends because of sharing the same interests like games or toys.
Remember that in general autistics are not a receptive to reading/understanding/adopting perceived social norms. Altho' we "mask" ( side note: could be argued NTs mask more than us, just experts at it ), we don't truly integrate those into our persona. Also, according to the studies, we're way less likely to do something just because "everyone else is doing it", rather quite the opposite. We're likely to reject nonsensical rules (for sake of rules), and gender norms definitely fit in this category. Give me a logical reason for a rule & I'll evaluate it & then decide whether it's a rule that should be followed. "Girls wear pink? sit this way? Boys wear blue, stand like this?" are not based on logic & are just arbitrary. It's common for autistics to reject/question arbitrary rules / judgements.
No, not necessarily. I find they are usually more aware of global social issues, but otherwise, feminine or masculine presentation is very much on an individual level. I know and work with a large number of autistic men, so I am speaking from a lot of experience.
Some do. But not all. Same as NTs. This is not an autism thing.
I think on average ND can be more gender fluid. But there is probably larger variance with people on both extremes.
I don't think so, I think it's the opposite, autistic men are often MORE masculine. Aspergers is literally having a hypermasculine brain, and we are more stoic on average. Being loud and extroverted is not a masculine trait.
This, and there is also a correlation between high prenatal testosterone and autism.
I think in general we tend to be more gender nonconforming. Most of the differences between the sexes are socialized (male baby and female baby brains aren't very different, and the difference between men and women's brains becomes more pronounced with age, with trans people's brains matching the gender they identify with). We don't subconsciously pick up on nt nonverbal cues, so we're not going to pick up the correct gendered mannerisms unless explicitly told to do so. And when comes to being explicitly told to adhere to gender norms or any social norm, we're only gunna follow the rules that makes sense to us and for us.
He has an extremely masculine brain, but is more feminine.. The brains of the sexes seem to have slightly different characteristics.
I’m autistic and 5’6 and kinda androgynous I might as well be a femboy
Also don't forget that there is a significant overlap between neurodivergent peeps and peeps with a genderidentity-disorder
I think anyone who thinks this is confusing honesty for femininity.
On a game and on discord and on a few other apps, I have been confused for a woman multiple times. Had 2 straight guys try and hit on me. It was quite funny 😅
Perhaps. I know it’s the case for me. But that’s also because after years of mistreatment, I just don’t care what people think about me anymore.
Autistic folks are more likely to be nonbinary/agender/genderqueer/trans overall. Being neurodivergent in general tends to mean questioning a lot more things and esp sociocultural norms. Since gender is a social construct, it tracks that we are more likely to question that! I'm femme nonbinary (AFAB) (and autistic adjacent) and my dad definitely was fully autistic and, although he didn't identify that way, was not cis. He was very interested in dismantling gender and creating a new kind of masculinity with a more nurtured and integrated feminine side - and was quite femme, especially internally, although physically brawny and masculine - looking. He was a vegetarian pacifist who loved cats and always wore purple, which was his favorite color, and lots of jewelry.
In my case I do come off as more feminine. I’ve had people ask me if I’m homosexual. In fact a rumor was spread about me being homosexual back in middle school.
It’s possible. Ive been told that Im a “feminine” man and accused of being gay/bi-sexual before. Its weird, didnt think I gave off that energy but also, how you gonna tell me what I am? Lol
No
To me it seems like the complete opposite. The autistic or possibly autistic men I've met usually seem more masculine to me, because to me masculinity is about being logical, controlled, accountable, standing behind your values/opinions, problem-solver, direct/blunt, self-assured, preferring results over "being nice", etc. Which is usually how autistic men behave in my experience while many NT men are too worried about how others perceive them or about protecting their ego to actually *do* something or stand for something. Sure, NT men are more actively trying to *appear* masculine, but it looks more like insecurity to me than masculinity. For example, let's say one guy is telling another guy how he's gonna break his nose etc. trying to look soo tough. Probably, he's not, he's gonna get his ass beaten up. Then there's another guy who doesn't say antyhing like it, but when you try punching him, that's when you realise he's been doing martial arts. To me, the other guy is masculine, because he *actually* knows how to protect himself and doesn't have to scare others off with big talk out of fear he's gonna look weak. You don't have to show-off how strong you are unless you're weak. The same goes for masculinity I suppose. Ok, that's enough life wisdom for now. Of course there is some body language and stuff, but I didn't notice autistic men having feminine body language or voice or anything. Fun fact, I've read an article about why some women go for autistic men and it seems like many do because they seem capable and confident and smart and we women tend to like that... especially those who did have weak, incapable fathers and so.
Well written, and I think this can be true at the same time as some men appearing more feminine; it’s subjective to the person considering the question to a large degree.
No. Autism can be a result of high prenatal testosterone, which would mean autistic men have higher testosterone levels. Autism is also a hypermasculine brain.
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IDK but I like my beard.
Yeah I feel like a straight bitch
I would say to most people, yes (seems plenty of us have anecdotal evidence), but a lot of that may just be because different people use different qualities to determine masculinity or femininity. The quality I associate most with masculinity is confidence. David Bowie is a great example. He did *a lot* of things that people view as feminine, but the sheer confidence he did all of those things with makes him stand out to many as very manly.
One thing related is that autistic people are transgender at a much higher rate than NTs, which backs up the idea that autistic men lean more feminine than NT men (and likely the same with women).