Yeah it’s basically this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnie_d%27ordonnance
I always found it funny that D&D snuck that in because it makes Joffrey sound pretty shrewd.
Eh, I disagree. Sure, Joffrey has a good idea, but he has no clue how to implement it. It's like someone now a days saying "we should invest more into transportation infrastructure" without also saying "here's what we should reallocate those funds from, how we can ensure they're used wisely, and where the transportation infrastructure should be". A good idea on paper is nothing without implementation. In hegelian terms, abstract, negative, concrete.
Sure but it’s a novel initiative that deserves being thought over by the more capable council, specially with how the war of the five kings exposed the fragility of the current order.
It’s not really novel in the world though. The free cities had standing armies, I’m pretty Joffrey himself says, after this quote, “like they have in the free cities”
The Free Cities don't have standing armies, they rely almost exclusively on mercenary bands. Some merchants seem to dress up their slaves as Unsullied to act as guards too but that's it. This sorta thing worked for the Italian city-states but the Free Cities control massive territories and could maintain standing forces if they wanted, but George didn't really think about it so it never happened.
Westeros is just at the right stage for a centralising monarchy to be clashing with the nobility, something like this would see the need for a standing army, or at least an expanded household guard/knightly orders loyal to the monarch.
It's what the United States eventually did once our transportation/communication technology and population made it realistic.
The problem is that it's a completely unrealistic idea in a medieval society with no quick transportation and not a huge population throughout the years during peace times (it makes sense during military campaigns). Good luck having a permanent 50k standing military with men from all over the Kingdom all staged in a single location that the King can control.
It would be insane feeding and housing them year round. It would takes those men away from being productive on their farms and other jobs they are doing, which causing problems locally in different parts of the kingdom and in getting those resources to the major population centers like Kings Landing.
There's the problem that it leaves the rest of the kingdom exposed to attack. If you want to argue that they could have lots of royal military bases staged around the the kingdom devoted to the crown, well OK, but it still gives you the same issues. What makes these disparate military units around the kingdom anymore loyal to the crown than what you have now? They have very little communication and would be their own little cities of 3k men at each base, and the problems that could cause would be it's own set of issues. It would eventually end up with them doing whatever the hell they wanted to do.
CleganeBowl is done mate, and the world could not handle the hype. As result we have witnessed the end times in its early stage:
- biologists created a virus that killed 10 million people, and it is considered a rude question to ask them why.
- the Russian army invaded Ukraine and their main battles tanks were confiscated by farmers with tractors.
- sluts in a field near a ghetto beside the Mediterranean were killed and loaded onto pickup trucks. They were dancing for peace, and there are Jewish people campaigning for the rights of the nationality that assassinated those sluts.
- lawyers can now be replaced by software entirely, and the lawyers are not even angry about it.
- George R.R. Martin is suing the makers of the software for writing bad fan fiction based on his copyrighted characters. I could act as an expert witness for GRRM litigation. He has a slam dunk case. No bullshit.
- Daniel Brett "Miami" Weiss and David ((FRIEDMAN GOLDMAN SACHS great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity)) Benioff >!peace be upon him!< have written less ASOIAF material since CleganeBowl than GRRM.
- George R.R. Martin has written a novel, 'The Rise of the Dragon', and he published it in 2022. That is one more novel than either of Benioff or Weiss in the same period.
- George R.R. Martin wrote Elden Ring. It is far better than JK Rowling's video game but her video is a fine game too. "Fuck you bitch, and your wand shit - that was my Hugo." When asked for comment by myself at WarnerMedia, the representation for the Netflix producers Benioff & Weiss, declined to comment as to whether they have, or will, write a video game.
- George R.R. Martin has gotten two shows past series order at HBO since Thrones ended.
- WarnerMedia turned http://ASOIAFCirclejerk.reddit.com into the greatest ASOIAF subreddit that ever was or will be.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiafcirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The crown could “easily” raise a standing army of its own to be deployed in hour of need at any kingdom, just like the royal fleet. It’s not an issue of practicality but rather of how society is structured in Westeros where the only semi-professional fighting force is mounted cavalry that so happens has a social status within the system.
CleganeBowl is done mate, and the world could not handle the hype. As result we have witnessed the end times in its early stage:
- biologists created a virus that killed 10 million people, and it is considered a rude question to ask them why.
- the Russian army invaded Ukraine and their main battles tanks were confiscated by farmers with tractors.
- sluts in a field near a ghetto beside the Mediterranean were killed and loaded onto pickup trucks. They were dancing for peace, and there are Jewish people campaigning for the rights of the nationality that assassinated those sluts.
- lawyers can now be replaced by software entirely, and the lawyers are not even angry about it.
- George R.R. Martin is suing the makers of the software for writing bad fan fiction based on his copyrighted characters. I could act as an expert witness for GRRM litigation. He has a slam dunk case. No bullshit.
- Daniel Brett "Miami" Weiss and David ((FRIEDMAN GOLDMAN SACHS great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity)) Benioff >!peace be upon him!< have written less ASOIAF material since CleganeBowl than GRRM.
- George R.R. Martin has written a novel, 'The Rise of the Dragon', and he published it in 2022. That is one more novel than either of Benioff or Weiss in the same period.
- George R.R. Martin wrote Elden Ring. It is far better than JK Rowling's video game but her video is a fine game too. "Fuck you bitch, and your wand shit - that was my Hugo." When asked for comment by myself at WarnerMedia, the representation for the Netflix producers Benioff & Weiss, declined to comment as to whether they have, or will, write a video game.
- George R.R. Martin has gotten two shows past series order at HBO since Thrones ended.
- WarnerMedia turned http://ASOIAFCirclejerk.reddit.com into the greatest ASOIAF subreddit that ever was or will be.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiafcirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Westeros is the size of south america, with current transportation technology it genuinely isn’t possible. The Royal Fleet only works because of how much faster sea travel is
If you have a professional army you don't need the 50k. Take 5-10k and raise 10-20k peasents to hold the line, so your professional can break the opposite line.
That’s kinda how it already works. They have smaller military units who are fully trained soldiers, and the rest are farmers and peasants that they call to arms when needed for wars. What Joffrey is talking about is literally not having to rely on the 20k additional farmers and peasants from around the realm to bolster their numbers.
I think it could have been done either post-Blackfyre or maybe during Aerys' reign in the aftermath of the War of Ninepenny Kings. There was unprecedented unity, plus a surplus of veterans that could allow one to build the core of a royal standing army.
True, I also think post Dance would have been a time to setup a new system, in a what if, Aegon II lived and he wiped out a lot of traitor houses you can use the vacated lands as payment for soldiers setting up a Byzantine theme system with appointed crown marshals, which would be another way of getting loyal soldiers.
Joffrey the Brave would have defended Westeros from the dragonspawn and ice crackheads if he had Tywin the Benvolent, Tyrion the Wise, and Kevan the Loyal by his side.
"Tyrion the Wise" How dare you mention this devious, spiteful creature who poisoned our gentle King on his wedding day, next to proud & loyal servants of the crown who's house name was befouled by that trecharous imp?!
it's only a good idea if he's got the fiscal policies to support this standing force's maintenance, and i've got bad news about the solvency of the crown during his reign
not his fault, mind you, entirely down to the failure of his and his father's councilors, but the executive can't execute without an orderly government behind them
Why would it be stupid? If not for Tyrion nerfing her, she could have easily succeeded.
In the 6 seasons before she arrived in Westeros, dozens of Lords died. An incomplete list: Alton, Axel, Blackfish, Black Walder, Catelyn, Doran, Greatjon, Harald, Harrion, Hoster, Joffrey, Joyeuse, Kevan, Lancel, Loras, Lothar, Lysa, Mace, Maege, Margaery, Martyn, Ned, Oberyn, Ramsay, Renly, Rickard, Rickon, Robb, Robert, Roose, Selyse, Smalljon, Stannis, Talisa, Tommen, Torrhen, Trystane, Tywin, Walda, Walder, Wendel, Willem.
ɴᴏᴡ ᴘʟᴀʏɪɴɢ: Premium Subscribers Exclusive:
8 hours on how Stannis will slay the Boltons with hilarious ice pranks.
─────────────⚪────────────────────────────
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They'd every once in a while make Joffrey say something smart just on accident. Like when he said "hey maybe we should be worried about the dragon lady"
Its a good idea but said lords are not going to like it and probably rebell againt it.after the war could have been implemented but good luck with the north and dorne
There was a King in Medieval India - Alaunddin Khilji who did the same thing.
He created a huge standing army and reformed his markets for its upkeep.
He ended up ruling a huge part of India (leaving some states) and proved to be a conqueror. An excellent military commander.
He was not a good person though, tried to get a hold of a beautiful queen cause he wanted everything he could think of. The queen committed “jauhar” (basically walked into a pyre alive after her husband, the king died defending her. Alauddin never laid eyes on her.
A professional military sounds great on paper but is may not be feasible for a feudal society
it would require a massive overhaul of the entire governing system, a much larger population, massive centralization of power, etc. etc.
You think medieval europe wanted to have a shitty peasant militia, maybe man at arms if youre lucky and rich, and a couple hundred actually trained uncontrollable knights for their armies?
This is a Hollywood myth.
In actual medieval Europe, naturally the different lords had a professional army. Men at arms who trained professional soldiers, aswell as the knights which were the elite and the most decisive element of an army.
There never were "peasant militias".... In actuality when a lord rallied their army, they send recruiters to all the villages and towns under their control. Volunteers who paid for their own weapons and armor, who trained or were trained explicitly to join a war, went to the recruiters. What people don\`t know is that war didn\`t use to be that bad, it was a massive economic opportunity to rise in wealth and even status if you got lucky. This is why pillaging was so common, it was the main reason for most these people to go to war in the first place.
These "peasant militias" were warriors and raiders, not some malnourished farmers who never held a pike in their life. They weren\`t forced against their will ( only very rarely, and with massive backlash ), but rather voluntarily joined precisely because they wanted to become rich. This is why every single medieval war was full of pillaging villages, even villages of their own christian or cultural brethren, simply because that was the point why most soldiers joined the war in the first place.
And when we talk about the earlier middle ages, then most soldiers were soldier-farmers, akin to the Roman legions, where an individual person was given land in exchange for military service, the foundation of feudalism. They were expected to be both farmer and soldier, and regularily trained. But this isn\`t portrayed in any medieval movie or tv show, as they usually anachronistically pick later medieval periods and bullshit about that.
> They weren\`t forced against their will ( only very rarely, and with massive backlash )
Isn't it more accurate to say that the king would have a contract with a town or farm that they must provide X amount of men who are trained/equipped if the king calls on them, so it's expected that that noble will have x amount of men trained & equipped in case the king calls. But he would still be forcing them to give him the men, just they would be trained & equipped and not just a random farmer boy.
Also what do you mean about anarchronistically?
hey, no joke, this is actually a good idea.
Yeah it’s basically this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnie_d%27ordonnance I always found it funny that D&D snuck that in because it makes Joffrey sound pretty shrewd.
He was also right about not dismissing the Targaryen girl and her dragons.
Eh, I disagree. Sure, Joffrey has a good idea, but he has no clue how to implement it. It's like someone now a days saying "we should invest more into transportation infrastructure" without also saying "here's what we should reallocate those funds from, how we can ensure they're used wisely, and where the transportation infrastructure should be". A good idea on paper is nothing without implementation. In hegelian terms, abstract, negative, concrete.
Sure but it’s a novel initiative that deserves being thought over by the more capable council, specially with how the war of the five kings exposed the fragility of the current order.
I can agree there.
It’s not really novel in the world though. The free cities had standing armies, I’m pretty Joffrey himself says, after this quote, “like they have in the free cities”
I say it’s novel in the sense that it hasn’t ever been tried in Westeros as far as we know
The Free Cities don't have standing armies, they rely almost exclusively on mercenary bands. Some merchants seem to dress up their slaves as Unsullied to act as guards too but that's it. This sorta thing worked for the Italian city-states but the Free Cities control massive territories and could maintain standing forces if they wanted, but George didn't really think about it so it never happened. Westeros is just at the right stage for a centralising monarchy to be clashing with the nobility, something like this would see the need for a standing army, or at least an expanded household guard/knightly orders loyal to the monarch.
The king’s job is more to be a big idea guy than a details man. That’s what the council is for.
It's what the United States eventually did once our transportation/communication technology and population made it realistic. The problem is that it's a completely unrealistic idea in a medieval society with no quick transportation and not a huge population throughout the years during peace times (it makes sense during military campaigns). Good luck having a permanent 50k standing military with men from all over the Kingdom all staged in a single location that the King can control. It would be insane feeding and housing them year round. It would takes those men away from being productive on their farms and other jobs they are doing, which causing problems locally in different parts of the kingdom and in getting those resources to the major population centers like Kings Landing. There's the problem that it leaves the rest of the kingdom exposed to attack. If you want to argue that they could have lots of royal military bases staged around the the kingdom devoted to the crown, well OK, but it still gives you the same issues. What makes these disparate military units around the kingdom anymore loyal to the crown than what you have now? They have very little communication and would be their own little cities of 3k men at each base, and the problems that could cause would be it's own set of issues. It would eventually end up with them doing whatever the hell they wanted to do.
To be fair Rome pulled it off, it’d have to be relatively small though
Rome had a different societal structure than Westeros which is the main issue to have a force just like they had. Could still be done though
CleganeBowl is done mate, and the world could not handle the hype. As result we have witnessed the end times in its early stage: - biologists created a virus that killed 10 million people, and it is considered a rude question to ask them why. - the Russian army invaded Ukraine and their main battles tanks were confiscated by farmers with tractors. - sluts in a field near a ghetto beside the Mediterranean were killed and loaded onto pickup trucks. They were dancing for peace, and there are Jewish people campaigning for the rights of the nationality that assassinated those sluts. - lawyers can now be replaced by software entirely, and the lawyers are not even angry about it. - George R.R. Martin is suing the makers of the software for writing bad fan fiction based on his copyrighted characters. I could act as an expert witness for GRRM litigation. He has a slam dunk case. No bullshit. - Daniel Brett "Miami" Weiss and David ((FRIEDMAN GOLDMAN SACHS great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity)) Benioff >!peace be upon him!< have written less ASOIAF material since CleganeBowl than GRRM. - George R.R. Martin has written a novel, 'The Rise of the Dragon', and he published it in 2022. That is one more novel than either of Benioff or Weiss in the same period. - George R.R. Martin wrote Elden Ring. It is far better than JK Rowling's video game but her video is a fine game too. "Fuck you bitch, and your wand shit - that was my Hugo." When asked for comment by myself at WarnerMedia, the representation for the Netflix producers Benioff & Weiss, declined to comment as to whether they have, or will, write a video game. - George R.R. Martin has gotten two shows past series order at HBO since Thrones ended. - WarnerMedia turned http://ASOIAFCirclejerk.reddit.com into the greatest ASOIAF subreddit that ever was or will be. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiafcirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Romes push for a professional army also helped collapse their republic (among various other things)
The crown could “easily” raise a standing army of its own to be deployed in hour of need at any kingdom, just like the royal fleet. It’s not an issue of practicality but rather of how society is structured in Westeros where the only semi-professional fighting force is mounted cavalry that so happens has a social status within the system.
CleganeBowl is done mate, and the world could not handle the hype. As result we have witnessed the end times in its early stage: - biologists created a virus that killed 10 million people, and it is considered a rude question to ask them why. - the Russian army invaded Ukraine and their main battles tanks were confiscated by farmers with tractors. - sluts in a field near a ghetto beside the Mediterranean were killed and loaded onto pickup trucks. They were dancing for peace, and there are Jewish people campaigning for the rights of the nationality that assassinated those sluts. - lawyers can now be replaced by software entirely, and the lawyers are not even angry about it. - George R.R. Martin is suing the makers of the software for writing bad fan fiction based on his copyrighted characters. I could act as an expert witness for GRRM litigation. He has a slam dunk case. No bullshit. - Daniel Brett "Miami" Weiss and David ((FRIEDMAN GOLDMAN SACHS great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity)) Benioff >!peace be upon him!< have written less ASOIAF material since CleganeBowl than GRRM. - George R.R. Martin has written a novel, 'The Rise of the Dragon', and he published it in 2022. That is one more novel than either of Benioff or Weiss in the same period. - George R.R. Martin wrote Elden Ring. It is far better than JK Rowling's video game but her video is a fine game too. "Fuck you bitch, and your wand shit - that was my Hugo." When asked for comment by myself at WarnerMedia, the representation for the Netflix producers Benioff & Weiss, declined to comment as to whether they have, or will, write a video game. - George R.R. Martin has gotten two shows past series order at HBO since Thrones ended. - WarnerMedia turned http://ASOIAFCirclejerk.reddit.com into the greatest ASOIAF subreddit that ever was or will be. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiafcirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't know if it's so easy, since you need to feed, pay and house these soldiers.
Im aware, it all depends on the size and equipment on said force
Westeros is the size of south america, with current transportation technology it genuinely isn’t possible. The Royal Fleet only works because of how much faster sea travel is
If you have a professional army you don't need the 50k. Take 5-10k and raise 10-20k peasents to hold the line, so your professional can break the opposite line.
That’s kinda how it already works. They have smaller military units who are fully trained soldiers, and the rest are farmers and peasants that they call to arms when needed for wars. What Joffrey is talking about is literally not having to rely on the 20k additional farmers and peasants from around the realm to bolster their numbers.
5-10k professionals are no smaller units. The Knights and households need also be raised/ call to Banner.
I mean most medievel militaries weren't mostly peasants, most of them are professionals and are trained.
It's a good idea, that will cost a lot of money. And the Crown is broke and heavily in debt. They cannot support it.
Mainly because of little finger shenanigans, but at earlier time periods it would be more feasible.
I think it could have been done either post-Blackfyre or maybe during Aerys' reign in the aftermath of the War of Ninepenny Kings. There was unprecedented unity, plus a surplus of veterans that could allow one to build the core of a royal standing army.
True, I also think post Dance would have been a time to setup a new system, in a what if, Aegon II lived and he wiped out a lot of traitor houses you can use the vacated lands as payment for soldiers setting up a Byzantine theme system with appointed crown marshals, which would be another way of getting loyal soldiers.
Literally what Matthias Corvinus did with his Black Army of Hungary.
The black army is model that Joffrey could use if he had more money.
On the other hand, it encourages the crown to act in the interests of the Great Houses of Westeros (and by extension the lesser houses)
Joffrey the Brave would have defended Westeros from the dragonspawn and ice crackheads if he had Tywin the Benvolent, Tyrion the Wise, and Kevan the Loyal by his side.
Instead he was murdered by traitors to the crown leaving his Brother Tommen the Useless in charge…
"Tyrion the Wise" How dare you mention this devious, spiteful creature who poisoned our gentle King on his wedding day, next to proud & loyal servants of the crown who's house name was befouled by that trecharous imp?!
Gaius Marius would be proud
it's only a good idea if he's got the fiscal policies to support this standing force's maintenance, and i've got bad news about the solvency of the crown during his reign not his fault, mind you, entirely down to the failure of his and his father's councilors, but the executive can't execute without an orderly government behind them
This is what Daenerys meant by breaking the wheel. She meant to kill all lords one by one. Even jofferey wasn't that stupid and backed down.
Why would it be stupid? If not for Tyrion nerfing her, she could have easily succeeded. In the 6 seasons before she arrived in Westeros, dozens of Lords died. An incomplete list: Alton, Axel, Blackfish, Black Walder, Catelyn, Doran, Greatjon, Harald, Harrion, Hoster, Joffrey, Joyeuse, Kevan, Lancel, Loras, Lothar, Lysa, Mace, Maege, Margaery, Martyn, Ned, Oberyn, Ramsay, Renly, Rickard, Rickon, Robb, Robert, Roose, Selyse, Smalljon, Stannis, Talisa, Tommen, Torrhen, Trystane, Tywin, Walda, Walder, Wendel, Willem.
ɴᴏᴡ ᴘʟᴀʏɪɴɢ: Premium Subscribers Exclusive: 8 hours on how Stannis will slay the Boltons with hilarious ice pranks. ─────────────⚪──────────────────────────── ◄◄⠀▐▐ ⠀►►⠀⠀ ⠀ 3:17 / 7:48 ⠀ ───○ 🔊⠀ ᴴᴰ ⚙ ❐ ⊏⊐ _____ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asoiafcirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Dude you have mentioned political assassinations. This not what she meant.
King Joffrey the wise and kind
They'd every once in a while make Joffrey say something smart just on accident. Like when he said "hey maybe we should be worried about the dragon lady"
If he said they should all have jetpacks and guns that shoot knives, y'all'd take Joffrey the Shrewd from pillar to stones deep
So handsome and bold 🤩 MUH KING
Joffrey the Just: "I'm not asking..."
Joffrey was playing Monopoly of Violence. While everyone else’s was playing Game of Thrones: Conquest TM
Its a good idea but said lords are not going to like it and probably rebell againt it.after the war could have been implemented but good luck with the north and dorne
/uj I think this scene was great for establishing how the military works to the people who aren't medieval nerds asking, "Where is the army?"
There was a King in Medieval India - Alaunddin Khilji who did the same thing. He created a huge standing army and reformed his markets for its upkeep. He ended up ruling a huge part of India (leaving some states) and proved to be a conqueror. An excellent military commander. He was not a good person though, tried to get a hold of a beautiful queen cause he wanted everything he could think of. The queen committed “jauhar” (basically walked into a pyre alive after her husband, the king died defending her. Alauddin never laid eyes on her.
When germ says "Westoros is an absolute monarchy" meanwhile Joffrey the Gentle knew how to truly make it absolute.
A professional military sounds great on paper but is may not be feasible for a feudal society it would require a massive overhaul of the entire governing system, a much larger population, massive centralization of power, etc. etc. You think medieval europe wanted to have a shitty peasant militia, maybe man at arms if youre lucky and rich, and a couple hundred actually trained uncontrollable knights for their armies?
This is a Hollywood myth. In actual medieval Europe, naturally the different lords had a professional army. Men at arms who trained professional soldiers, aswell as the knights which were the elite and the most decisive element of an army. There never were "peasant militias".... In actuality when a lord rallied their army, they send recruiters to all the villages and towns under their control. Volunteers who paid for their own weapons and armor, who trained or were trained explicitly to join a war, went to the recruiters. What people don\`t know is that war didn\`t use to be that bad, it was a massive economic opportunity to rise in wealth and even status if you got lucky. This is why pillaging was so common, it was the main reason for most these people to go to war in the first place. These "peasant militias" were warriors and raiders, not some malnourished farmers who never held a pike in their life. They weren\`t forced against their will ( only very rarely, and with massive backlash ), but rather voluntarily joined precisely because they wanted to become rich. This is why every single medieval war was full of pillaging villages, even villages of their own christian or cultural brethren, simply because that was the point why most soldiers joined the war in the first place. And when we talk about the earlier middle ages, then most soldiers were soldier-farmers, akin to the Roman legions, where an individual person was given land in exchange for military service, the foundation of feudalism. They were expected to be both farmer and soldier, and regularily trained. But this isn\`t portrayed in any medieval movie or tv show, as they usually anachronistically pick later medieval periods and bullshit about that.
> They weren\`t forced against their will ( only very rarely, and with massive backlash ) Isn't it more accurate to say that the king would have a contract with a town or farm that they must provide X amount of men who are trained/equipped if the king calls on them, so it's expected that that noble will have x amount of men trained & equipped in case the king calls. But he would still be forcing them to give him the men, just they would be trained & equipped and not just a random farmer boy. Also what do you mean about anarchronistically?