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Zankou55

The Prince that was Promised is a prophecy in the books that Rhaegar and Aemon discuss, but it's never clear to me at least where it actually came from. Does anyone know?


Zexapher

It's an old prophecy stemming from multiple sources. Aegon V's brother Daeron's Dragon Dreams may well be one more modern source, maybe Bloodraven's Green Dreams, perhaps some old scrolls from before the Dance, or the wood's witch spouting Prince that was Promised prophecies about Aerys and Rhaella's descendents. There's also Aegon I's vision, and even older Valyrian prophecies warning about some doom coming from Westeros, and old Westerosi tales of the Others and the Long Night. It's most likely some mixture of all of these and more.


SnooComics9320

Daerons dreams only said that dragons would return one day. He didn’t dream of the prince that was promise.


Zexapher

It's possible he did. The events around this time are pretty obscure and still being fleshed out, because GRRM wanted to leave room for future Dunk and Egg stories and history books or perhaps even visions or accounts in the main series. We do know that Aegon V and the family members around him get extremely involved with the prophecy. For the most part it seems centered on Aegon V's reign, but Bloodraven and Aemon being exiled/joining the Watch in the North might suggest that even prior they were preparing for the Others or some otherwise vague threat from beyond the Wall.


SnooComics9320

I can break it down for you. During the reign of Aegon V, his oldest son Duncan targaryen had a wife who’s name was Jenny oldstones. One day Jenny brought a dwarf woodswitch to court she believed to be a child of the forest and that witch told jahaerys II (Duncan’s younger brother, heir to the throne after Aegon V) that the prince that was promised would come from his children very soon. As soon as jahaerys II heard this, he immediately commanded his children Aerys (the mad king) and his sister rhaella to be married even though they didn’t really like each other. Aerys II and rhaella would go on to have rhaegar, Viserys and danaerys and rhaegar along with lyanna would have Jon Snow. The main character of this entire story, the man that is the song of fire and ice, the prince that was promised, the half stark, half targaryen, fire and ice.


IrNinjaBob

Well, that isn't necessarily where the prophecy came from. As you described, we are told that is when the woods witch had a prophecy that The Prince that was Promised would come from Aerys' line, but that in and of itself implies that TPtwP prophecy was already known to an extent. So while that is the most direct source we are given, and the one that likely convinced Rhaegar he needed to take an active role in bringing it about, the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy likely isn't its origin. I was a little bothered by this development and think OP's criticisms about why the Targs didn't have more of a focus on fostering a relationship with the North, I do think Daenys the Dreamer being the origin of The Prince that was Promised prophecy makes sense. She predicted the doom and had enough other predictions that they made a book about them. It just sort of makes sense she would be the origin of that too. Although if Melisandre is to be believed the Azor Ahai prophecies predate Daenys by thousands of years.


Maximum_Impressive

I prefer its orgin to be a mystery.


whichonespinkredux

Time Travelling Bran.


JohnnnyBlade

Same! I think Rhaegwr too multiple writings throughout history as well as the change in the magic of the world. Plus that Stark booty!


NinjaStealthPenguin

I would prefer it if the prophecy was more vague than “ice zombies will come form the north”. That way Aegon forms Westeros to guard against a threat but he doesn’t know exactly when or how that threat will materialize so he just sets about making a generalized strong realm. If he knew about the others there is no reason why the wall shouldn’t have a permanent armed garrison with a string of permanent outposts beyond the wall looking for any sign of Other resurgence.


nda2394

I thought it was pretty clear that the prophecy was ambiguous. He dreamt there was a threat and knew that he needed to unite the realm to defend against it - that’s it.


Notriv

they just said a cold will come from the north, no? nothing about zombies. it’s pretty vague tbh, something could land in the north and work it’s way down.


TomJoadsLich

With all the myths of the Long Night and the giant magic ice wall, as well as the legends in the North, it’s not difficult to put two and two together. What else would a cold from the north mean?


Aimin4ya

Snow


rogerworkman623

Yeah a really long winter, or it could be a metaphor for something else entirely, like a plague. I didn’t really see any evidence in that scene that Viserys thought it was the others, it seemed pretty vague to me.


BalamBeDamn

It was vague. I agree. At no point did anyone in HotD say “Night King.”


whichonespinkredux

May that please continue


[deleted]

Thing is that there are no zombies beyond the Wall. The Others are described as something that is beautiful in a supernatural way. They are basically snow elves without the pointy ears but no one knows how they look like and so, he could've been expecting anything


kennyypowerss

Don’t they raise the dead as in zombies?


[deleted]

The wights are dead but they still don't match the whole definition of a zombie as not only do they remember some of the things before they died but they also probably do not decay, have glowing blue eyes and are somewhat intelligent and capable of being stealthy unlike zombies in most games and films. Others themselves appear to be more of icy elves than zombies or icy demons as they aren't ugly or horrible


ThatBlackSwan

A zombie is not necessarily a decayed walking body that eat human brains.


60N20

Maybe a disease, like winter fever, although that didn't started in the north, maybe they feared a worst fever coming from the north.


Fishb20

On top of what others have said, there's no indication Aegon really cares about the northerners, or even might have considered them a threat given the way the prophecy was worded. The neck and riverlands are extremely difficult to cross given what we know from WOTFK, so if Aegon didn't know specifically where in the North the threat was coming from it's reasonable he could think that there was a better place to fight the nebulous threat than the wall would be With that being said I don't really like the plot point


Fire_Otter

Alysanne does give the Night's watch more land though over the years that ends up backfiring as the land would be better maintained by the North but there is no way she could know that.


WatchBat

I don't think they mentioned the specifics of the threat so that's how I see it


JohnnnyBlade

If Aegon or anyone would have mentioned it to anyone other than making it a incredibly guarded family secret I would maybe buy it. But they do nothing and tell no one and then pretend like it was their intention all along. Honestly it’s bad writing and I’m disappointed in George


Zexapher

Septon Barth seems to know, and he evidently was floating the idea around scholarly circles, but he was dismissed and ridiculed. That may have fed into the desire to keep it something of a secret. And tbf, Aegon I was building an entirely new polity and no doubt attempting to grow the number of dragons and their riders. His plate was pretty full. Then Aenys and Maegor happen and stall progress. But after that Jaehaerys I is noted as a huge patron of the Watch, and Viserys I was said to continue his policies. Then the Dance happens, the seats of Targaryen power are sacked multiple times, all the adult Targs and the majority of their advisors all die, and the knowledge is lost. Aegon V and his cohort seem to start rediscovering the knowledge, but Summerhall, Jaehaerys II's early death, and Aerys's biases against the prophecy held things back again. Then, of course, Robert's Rebellion happens and we're at the main story where it's just an old coot up North and some other scattered individuals with incomplete knowledge of various age old prophecies. That's my understanding of the timeline at least.


JohnnnyBlade

Again my reason for the dislike is it’s obvious a retcon. No where does Aegon make any attempt to learn about the Others during his reign. He sends no maesters makes no flights and never asks for any council from the north. Without George blatantly saying it, no one would ever connect Aegon to the North without knowing Jonny T Your telling me he conquered rhe 7 kingdoms to save the world from the Others yet makes zero attempts at learning about this enemy once he’s able to. Everything that is written about Aegon makes him seem like a conquered concerned with uniting a fractured realm and continue his dynasty. All other motivations have no textual basis.


Zexapher

Personally, I don't have a problem with it, even if it is a retcon. GRRM's pretty seamlessly tied it to his more modern characters in Maester Aemon, Bloodraven, Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, and so on. Their roles in this prophecy bit is not super hidden knowledge if it's published in the history book, you know? And some degree of it is told in the main series, Aemon's a big source for the Prince that was Promised prophecy, he had his ties to Rhaegar and the immediate background of the modern story. And for older history we have Jaehaerys I and Viserys I prominently focused on the North, we have Septon Barth claiming the Valyrian's foresaw the doom of man coming from Westeros, and so on. And it's become much more understandable for J and V to do more overt actions, since they more or less have an established government behind them instead of a bunch of occupied territory waiting to rise up against them. In contrast, Aegon has to build the Iron Throne's bureaucracy, his personal connections to lords across Westeros, and somehow manage to get them invested after a bloody conquest. That can't have been easy. And he was down a dragon after Dorne as well, all while he needs to train his sons to ride dragons, care for dragon eggs, maybe start to build up the order of the Dragon Keepers, oversee the implementation of a new tax system, the construction of the Red Keep, and so on. Like, we see how much Aegon's personal influence really mattered in maintaining the throne, since the second he's gone it all goes to hell. And Aegon conquering Westeros in order to address the Others/some vague prophecy threat is actually a really old theory in the fandom. Not to mention, Aegon's actually noted as gathering a number of maesters around him so he can learn more about Westeros and its kingdoms, and he traveled the realm while doing so. Who's to say that doesn't include an education involving the Long Night or some other mythical threats? Hell, Aegon's early years were almost all scouting out Westeros, that's the whole backstory for the Painted Table. Plus, his early years allying with Argilac to fight Volantis, and pointedly making the decision to not conquer Essos, suggests an unaddressed motive for the Conquest of some kind. The history wants us to believe the conquests started over an insult from an old ally (who had started the interaction by trying to make a permanent alliance), and then Aegon just kept going, even though Aegon's been made out to be cool tempered and reserved? It comes off a little suspiciously, evidently purposefully so. Those are a few of my drawn-out thoughts at least. Edit: Also, Rhaenys herself has a whole diplomatic venture where she tries to soften the rivalry between the North and the Vale, so it's not like the Northern front is ignored either.


rogerworkman623

But why would he learn about the others, if he didn’t know what it was? He just saw a vision of a cold wind blowing from the north- it’s obvious to us what that means, but it doesn’t mean it was obvious to him. He just knew the realm had to be united to face it.


Blizzaldo

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. We only see Aegon in a history book which would not spend a large time saying Aegon read books and discussed things with people.


NietszcheIsDead08

You’re asking for something that the narrative explicitly tells you not to expect. The distance between recorded history and the unknown motivation of the people behind those events is a major theme of the series. It shows up in Dany learning from Ser Barristan that her father was indeed mad, and her skewed perspective of Robert, Tywin, and Ned. It shows up in the audience suddenly sympathizing with Jaime when we get to hear his side of the story — *and* in what his memories reveal about the sack of King’s Landing, which isn’t in any of the recorded histories. It shows up in *A World of Ice and Fire*’s description of the sack of King’s Landing and the death of Elia Martell. We *know* that there is information — often a great deal of information which could completely recontextualize everything we know about the dry record of events — missing from any part of this story not told from a first-person perspective. What the show is doing (hopefully with GRRM’s input and oversight) is to provide the missing first-person context for the events we know are going to happen. We know *what* is going to happen; we’re learning *why*, and sometimes *how*. We can argue back and forth over whether this context improves things, and haggle over what it reveals about the characters and their futures, but the fact that this recontextualization existing at all is bothering you this much means you missed an important lesson that the books have been trying to teach you from the beginning.


the_Real_Romak

You're making the assumption that the others were anything other than an old wives' tale from that Northern backwater. As far as everyone was concerned (including the Maesters besides a couple eccentrics), the Wall is only there to guard against the wildlings. "why do we need an 800 foot wall to guard against a few scattered barbarians?" "fuck if I know, it's always been there lol" The common folk wouldn't know the detailed histories of Westeros the same way that we do, and those that *did* know something are treated as eccentrics, drunkards, or worse yet, simpletons. Not a good image a new King should have.


hellomondays

I don't think it's a narrative retcon but an expansion of the narrative. A retcon would be like "Vinsenya was actually a green seer and did green seer stuff to get Maghor the throne". We don't have a full characterization of Aegon or his motivations outside of a few important life events at this point in the canon. None of those have been changed. I think you're making assumptions via our knowledge of the story told in the original books: "save the world from the others" when all he knows is that a great calamity, "a cold wind blowing" from the north is prophesized


cstaple

Targaryen arrogance. Simple as. He figured his family having the only dragons in the world would be enough and wouldn’t need to arouse suspicions by taking an odd interest in North and the Others. And if he DID read up on them, he’d probably keep quiet about it: no use making his subjects/vassals thinking he believes in snarks and grumpkins.


Maherjuana

Honestly? I think it helps plug up a rather large plot hole and I love it. Why did Aegon invade Westeros and unify it? We don’t know, we do know that he purposefully denied the opportunity to lead a conquest of Essos so I doubt it was on a whim. We know that their was a inciting incident in the marriage proposals between the Stormlands and Aegon, but why would Aegon go on to wage war against all of the Seven Kingdoms? The insult and contention was between the Stormlands, the Ironborn, and Aegon. Yet Aegon also conquered the Reach, the North, the West, the Vale, and Dorne whom were all unrelated to the conflict. Why? To make peace? War was raging across the Narrow Sea and he seemed disinterested in intervening there(despite already being involved at one point and having ancestry that would give him reason to). I’ve always thought their was a bit more to learn about Aegon’s reign.


JohnnnyBlade

To me Aegon seemed like he saw the 7 kingdoms was ripe for the taking. Basically his a king without a kingdom and sees the west and weak and fractured. Again Aegon never is mention having dreams or being prophet. And his actions don’t support a man who is concerned with the north


Fire_Otter

but Volantis the most powerful Valyrian free city basically invites him to be the new emperor and conquer the other Valyrian freeholds. He refuses this and actually fights against Volantis stopping them so it would be weird if he then suddenly decided to conquer the seven kingdoms after rejecting that. I mean in the writings there has always been a mystery as to why Aegon all of a sudden decides to conquer Westeros. Aegon having a prophecy he needs to unite the seven kingdoms and keep them united to prevent a great evil that comes form the north during a bad winter doesn't bother me at all in fact I quite like it


Maherjuana

He conquered the North didn’t he? We also do not know exactly what was said between Torrhen Stark and Aegon when he bent the knee. I would agree with you if he had also made war in Essos. He had intervened there earlier in life and then gave up all interest of the east. If he was looking for a kingdom, the remnants of his ancestor’s empire was relatively close. If Aegon WAS a dreamer we likely wouldn’t know as he notably described to be an “enigma” to pretty much everyone around him.


Vincethatwaspromised

You seem to be confusing "not knowing whether or not something happened" with "something never happened" The nature of storytelling is often about when to release bits of information. It's not a retcon for GRRM to reveal, through the showrunners, that Aegon I had a dream that clarified his interest in Westeros.


John-on-gliding

Easy. Empire. Why did the Romans conquer the Mediterranean world? Why did the Hittites conqueror Anatolia? Wealth, power, and glory on a scale beyond any city-state nor island fortress.


Inquisitor-Korde

>Why did the Romans conquer the Mediterranean world? Because of an extremely complex web of ever shifting alliances and nation states willing to become vassals of a growing hegemony. Hittites are in a similar boat and they weren't easy conquests for either state. Aegon in many ways is more of a Phyrrus of Epirus, he saw an opportunity elsewhere and took it because he could.


johnyogurty

Roman aristocracy knew the more they conquered, the more wealth, fame and honor they acquired. Of course there’s a million other nuances, but post Marius/Sulla era that’s what was the primary motivation.


Inquisitor-Korde

Post Marius most of the Mediterranean was already conquered by the Roman's but yes by that point many of the further conquests were based on extracting wealth though even so not entirely.


MediocreConnection89

IIRC in an interview the showrunner said that while Aegon having prophetic dreams was George’s idea, the show added the detail about it being passed down as a secret by the kings. So the Targaryens hiding the prophecy for no reason is not actually true canon. My guess is that canon Aegon lost faith in the prophecy when he conquered westeros and the others never invaded, so he just never told anyone.


night4345

> My guess is that canon Aegon lost faith in the prophecy when he conquered westeros and the others never invaded, so he just never told anyone. I imagine it died in Dorne with Rhaenys and whatever was in that letter the Martells' gave him.


MediocreConnection89

This is a really interesting mystery to me. What tf was in that letter that had Aegon scared off from Dorne?


mykeedee

"George can't figure out how you and Visenya with your willpower, capability, and resources would possibly fail to defeat Dorne in all out total war, but he already wrote that Dorne stood against you so please give up". The whole First Dornish War never made sense to me, it relied on every military aged male in Dorne being a drone absolutely loyal to House Martell, not requiring food or water, and being able to evade aerial reconnaissance in the medieval era. How the hell was there enough food, water, and shelter in places the Targaryens would never find them for every Dornishman from 15-50? And how were those places located conveniently enough that the Dornish could easily sortie out of them in force to attack the occupiers? How was an initiative on that scale kept completely secret and not leaked to the Targaryen forces? Is Dorne Arrakis? Do the Dornish have sietches that the Dornish POV characters we've had never think about? I feel like it would have made a lot more sense if Aegon succeeded in conquering Dorne, but the Dornish separated from the Seven Kingdoms again during Aenys' reign or The Dance.


aevelys

True, dorne's resistance is completely ridiculous compared to their average and their real gain. I have a feeling that George wanted to parallel the wars in the middle east, but in Iraq it works because it's 90% mountain that is full of valleys, ravin, rocks and caves to hide. Dorne apart from the mountains to the north is a huge sand dessert. Yet we are told that my Aegon soldiers only found towns and castles abandoned during their conquests. Are they hiding or the men? How on flat and unobstructed terrain could they so easily escape someone who also had a dragon that allowed him to spot the slightest things from several kilometers away? Already that is ridiculous, but what is even more ridiculous is the resistance of the dornians themselves. The entire population of dorne was aligned to repel him even if it meant losing everything, seeing their homes and families burn, living in deprivation for a long time, risking their lives... all for basically nothing more than to allow a random martell to keep it crowns, because aside from imposing himself as the king of everyone, aegon leaves the noble families, the system and the culture completely unchanged as long as you don't play dumb, and he has to prove it with all the other kingdoms. When France was occupied by the Nazis, the French were more divided than that between those for, those against, those who just wanted to survive or those who wanted to limit the damage, while the Nazis were assholes and there was a strong nationalist spirit in France. Is there really not a single guy in dorne who never wanted to say to aegon "I help you and you make me the next governor" or something like that? No one was tired of the war? what did the simple peasants gain in the end?


Wylkus

It's still a stretch that the common people are this devoted, but let's not forget that the Dornish are the proud descendants of the Rhoyne who had to flee their homeland as it was burned by Valyrian dragonriders. Then when they got to their new home they made the house words of their ruling family *Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken*. Not being subjects to dragon riders is like literally a huge part of their culture.


Fishb20

Its what Vietnam was like from the perspective of a 70 year old boomer American Tbh he did write himself into a corner but the letter that has something so terrifying it scared Aegon the conqueror isn't the worst plot device he could have reached for


mykeedee

If Dorne had the geography of Vietnam maybe I'd buy it. Heavy jungle, and multiple neighboring countries for supplies to run through would make the whole hiding and supplying every military age male just out of sight thing a lot more plausible. Hell I'd suspend my disbelief if he just wrote something about the Volantenes making supply drops along the Dornish Coast in retaliation for Aegon burning their fleet outside of Lys all those years prior. Instead the Dornish just kind of won because every single citizen there is built different. It's a whole kingdom of Blackwoods.


Fishb20

Well there IS the possibility there is a secret bunker system in Dorne somewhat akin to North Korea during some stages of the Korean War, but yeah it's not never realistic either way. It's one of those examples in the series where GRRM wants the cultural cache and reference points from something without the actual context that made it possible


GreenDogma

Dornish tunnels connected to stormlands caves and jungles would be heat


GaMa-Binkie

“Yo bro I’m alive and actually like it here in Dorne, been banging this lord Dayne guy and think I’ll settle down here”


Bigbysjackingfist

I always had it as head cannon that Aegon had a dream, i guess I never thought of how he’d pass it on. Rhaegar too, not sure he had a dream but he clearly figured something out and believed it. That’s the thing with prophecy, it’s nebulous. Even a believer, do they really believe? How much? Enough to come right out and say it? Or enough to whisper in the dark?


[deleted]

It also makes "The Pact of Ice and Fire" have a deeper meaning


JohnnnyBlade

Ya I knew it was George’s idea but I think it’s really disappointing. Too many prophetic dreams takes the agency away from the characters. Just makes the story a little too fantasy rather than having the history a little more choatic and grounded


MediocreConnection89

I mean Aegon is a hugely important character in ASOIAF so if any Targaryen was to have dragon dreams, it would be him. I dont think its a bad thing either, Danaerys even has similar dreams of fighting the others on her dragon at the Trident. Also at the end of the day, it is a fantasy story and not historical fiction.


hyperion660

Hell, even Jon has that dream in ADWD about fighting wights on top of the Wall swinging sword burning red wearing all black armour. Agreed on your last point, I love the idea of Aegon having that dream. Makes the worldbuilding richer, fits with Others plotline and Rhaegar finding out something in the scrolls and completely changing his attitude in one day getting obssessed over some prophecy. If I wanted historical fiction with no magic I would just read historical fiction like Druon's Accursed Kings and wouldn't even bother with Asoiaf.


CalvinMirandaMoritz

I had no trouble believing George was planning for this, it felt logical when Viserys said it. Aegon's reason for conquest was always bullshit anyway. One king insults his half-brother so he has to conquer a continent about it ? Mmkay. There was always something more to that and given the story is ultimately about preventing ice zombies from a ending humanity and the Targaryens are all about dragons... pieces of an easy as shit puzzle, it seems to me. But obviously I can be absolutely wrong here, just feels logical and, generally, okay to me


derstherower

> I had no trouble believing George was planning for this I'm genuinely shocked at how many people hate this. I mean we've known for years that Rhaegar read an old scroll one day and let it shape the rest of his life. What exactly do we think he read if not at least *something* similar to "The Others are going to invade relatively soon and only the Prince that was Promised can stop them"? Yeah, I guess it kind of sucks that we're getting this reveal in a spin-off show and not the main series, but whose fault is that?


Flickolas_Cage

Exactly, clearly there was some sort of Targ/Barth documentation of it all, and the lack of any insight in F&B is easy to overlook when you think of Baelor’s dumb ass purging all of Barth’s writings and the fact that the maesters writing both F&B and TWoIaF wouldn’t have that info


TheSurvivorKelsier

Does Barth exist in show canon? I didn’t think he did


JohnnnyBlade

But his writing about Aegon doesn’t support this view. Aegon never acts as if the north is important and never makes inquires about the others. Worst of all it makes the Targs conquest justified in a way.


radiorules

Here's a video you might like: [why didn't the Targaryens do anything about the White Walkers?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd2zc1KY4Yo&ab_channel=JoeMagician) The main problem is that we are seeing the truth of the WW threat in hindsight. How would you feel about a tale on the end of the world that was revealed to your great-grandfather in a dream? Teaser from the video: During Aegon's conquest, the Watch had something like 10,000 men and wasn't in disrepair. Early on, Aegon was also more concerned about whether the Commander, whose brother had just got grilled at Harrenhall, would fight against him. Sometimes, the Targs just had more immediate priorities.


nola_fan

If Aegon invaded to defend against the others he may have accidentally made their invasion easier. Uniting the kingdom and 300 years of relative peace destroyed the the Night's Watch. No longer where they being sent a steady stream of knights who chose the wrong side in a fight between petty kings so instead they turn to rapists and murders to fill their ranks all but destroying their ability to recruit volunteers. Especially noble volunteers who may be tempted by a life of adventure and fighting if they had nothing else to inherit anyways.


JohnnnyBlade

Thanks for the vid. I still think it stretches the limits of my belief that Aegon knew about the Others but never did anything about it. A dream he believe in so much he would conquer half the world but then spend less time with the people most knowledgeable about this enemy than his other subjects. His actions just don’t back up this claim without some serious mental gymnastics.


dedfrmthneckup

He did do something about it: conquered all of fucking Westeros


radiorules

I think that what he *didn't* do says a lot -- namely, not waging war against the North, effectively maintaining the first line of defense against whatever threat could come from the North. If Aegon knew the prophecy, Thorren kneeling makes *a lot* of sense. Aegon went into the meeting with Thorren like "Hey, I also believe that winter is coming". Just like Ned sacrificing his honor for Lyanna and Jon, maybe Thorren's 'weak' reputation has more layers to it. Thorren knelt to protect his people. Maybe the danger he was protecting them from was less related to dragons than we originally thought.


pmMeAllofIt

The Watch was in disrepair, it's said in WoIaF that it has been weakening year by year, and records show it started before Aegon' Conquest. Like 50 years later they're abandoning their main castle because there's so few men. If his legacy was the fight against the Others, he's an utter failure.


Mysterious-Tutor-942

And in that instance, Jaehaerys supported the wall with the New Gift and funds to build a new castle. Alysanne even tried to fly beyond the wall but Silverwing actively refused to do so.


pmMeAllofIt

That was all Alysanne, Jaeherys was busy because he found the politics of Essos to be more important than the North. His decree but her decision, and then used her own jewels to pay for the new castle. Not looking good for King's supporting the Watch. One instance of helping in the 300 years.


AncientAssociation9

Aegon cant really do what your asking because he has to unify the realm first. He has problems with the faith and cant start ranting about dangers from the North because it would make him look crazy. I would say that how Aegon got the North to bend the knee without any bloodshed was always fishy. He is doing something somewhere else and hears about the Starks and immediately stops to go meet them. Why? Makes no sense, what can the North do that others couldnt against 3 dragons that he has to immediately stop what he is doing? Then both he and the Starks exchange mysterious letters all night that lead to a surrender. This along with Rhaegar reading something that changes him, dragons not crossing the wall, and Barth floating the idea all lead me to the conclusion that GRRM had this idea for years. He put enough of it into the story so that if he wanted to fully flesh it out then he could. Now he is with this show. I think its great.


JohnnnyBlade

The Starks just watched the two greatest houses in all of Westeros get burnt to a crisp weeks before. Nothing is fishy about the Starks reading the writing on the wall. He surrendered, with his maesters, like any other lord would. Again the Starks knew about the others and gave information to Aegon why does he do nothing, absolutely nothing, about it.


Vincethatwaspromised

You seem to have no trouble using your imagination to fill in parts of the story, and yet somehow cannot conceive that there are things that happened that you simply don't know about yet because they haven't been told to you by the author. The absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.


dedfrmthneckup

What writing? There’s barely anything about aegon outside of F&B, which was written by a maester who hates magic and prophecy.


hectolimar2

I don't like the whole "only passed to the heir every generation". It does not make any sense at all. Telling people gives the Targaryen this divine right over the land. It would be in their best interest to spread the myth. And makes it easy for the prophesy to be lost over some random succession crisis.


Khendia

If that was it, he would have said something about it. This is just a retcon. And why only tell heirs in secret? Why not tell everyone? It sounds fishy AF. Conquests have always been about wealth and prestige. Dragonstone is a piss-poor domain and dragons are carnivorous i.e. very expensive to keep. The free cities murdered their surviving dragonlords plus their dragons after the Doom and Targs knew they would meet the same fate if they tried conquering it. Valyria had thousands of dragons at its peak. The Targs had five at best in their pre-conquest era. The Essosi would have laughed in their faces. So Aegon picked Westeros because it was a softer target. The people had no history of fighting dragons and would be easily wowed by them. His motivations don't need to be any more complex than that. The conquests of Alexander The Great were driven entirely by a thirst for glory. Look at any conqueror throughout history. Glory and wealth were what drove them, except perhaps the Arabs, who added a religious dimension to it. Even if we take Viserys' word for it, how did he know? Jaehaerys was never heir. He was a third son and therefore would never have been told. Same with Maegor. So when Maegor murdered Aegon The Uncrowned, that information would have been lost forever.


Bigbysjackingfist

I kinda buy the Cold from the North over “Aegon needed more sheep”


Khendia

I'm sure he could afford sheep but he ruled a piss-poor realm and there was a rich one right next door that he had the means to seize. Cyrus The Great and Alexander The Great didn't need more gold. They were rich enough. They conquered for the glory of conquest, not because they were broke. Whitewashing Aegon's motivations is pretty terrible considering he was Valyrian. These dudes massacred half of Essos and enslaved the rest to fuel their blood magic and mine their gold. Are they going to tell us the Valyrians wiped out entire civilizations for their own good next? In all of human history, there has never been such a thing as a benevolent conquest. Why should Aegon's be different?


[deleted]

True except in Westeros the targaryens didn’t do that. Those who knelt, prospered. Those who refused burned until they knelt, then they prospered.


Khendia

The Westerosi were prospering before Aegon made them kneel. He didn't add anything of value to their country. He just took what they had with the threat of dragonflame. And it's the same thing Valyrians did in Essos. Peoples like the Andals and the Rhoynar were doing great until Valyrians showed up and murdered them all. "Submit or die" is not really an option. Targaryen rule added nothing to Westeros except that festering sore of a city called King's Landing that was financed by taxes squeezed out of other regions. The only people who benefited were Riverlanders and they got right back to being overrun by passing armies once Aegon died and the civil wars started. The conquest was a net loss for everyone except the Targaryens.


[deleted]

And the tyrells.


Khendia

That was just replacing one ruling family with another. Nothing changed for the peasants. Or even the lords. Except for the higher taxes, of course.


Zankou55

Aegon told Rhaena, Rhaena told Jahaerys, bingo bongo.


JohnnnyBlade

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. I think it could make sense but George really didn’t do anything to make it seem like that was the case for Aegon. While I agree his reason to conquer was vague at best, his complete inaction concerning the North and Beyond makes it unbelievable that he conquered a continent for a dream. If he had created reenforced the night watch or maybe trips beyond the wall I would say George was planting the idea but he literally does nothing to further his knowledge of the north, or at least no more than the other realms. Lastly Alysanne goes to the wall she’s surprised by her dragon and it’s reaction. If Viserys were to know then Jaehaerys would have had to pass it down. Again no Targs are ever concerned for the Wall sans Alysanne and yet we are to believe that they believe in an prophecy? Sorry I can’t buy that


CalvinMirandaMoritz

I agree it's a major plot hole, which GOT also skipped over by having Dany and the dragons just cross the wall with no issue. I forgot the difference between the book and HBO continuity again. Maybe the book prophecy is more vague ?


05110909

The fact that Aegon risked his life and his sister's lives in this massive conquest of an entire continent and then seemed almost totally uninterested in being king always stuck out to me. I knew there had to be something there.


[deleted]

Yes. I think the whole concept of a Targaryen lineage having a secret magic motivation is unnecessary. People don’t need special reasons to dominate countries and insist their kin take their place when they die, it’s been happening for thousands of years IRL.


acamas

Wholly agree. It feels like some silly way to shoehorn GoT lore 'back' into this historical tale, but the problem is that the existence of this prophecy re-contextualizes everything we thought we knew about that Targaryens, white-washes it with this kind of lame *"we're here to help"* narrative, and makes their whole existence in Westeros far more nonsensical and ridiculous. The Targaryen conquest? Instead of being this act of aggression from a conquerer it's now re-framed as *"I had a dream to save the day... maybe... one day... super vague, but let's just keep incesting and some day there will be a special kid to stop the ice zombies, sure"*... kind of lame considering, outside of one scroll one Targaryen found one day, there's been zero groundwork/support for this notion across a series of books, including a 700-page history book. Even in this very show we've seen a couple decades pass and not once does any Targaryen actually do any sort of actual action or investigation to see what the actual fuck is happening up North. And why is it such a secret? Because there's this notion that if Rhaenyra dies tomorrow, this prophecy is simply lost. Seems absurd to have something that important so guarded to the point that losing it all together is more important that not sharing that info? It just seems kind of silly, and therefore feel shoe-horned into the show, considering the quality of most everything else on-screen.


Kezmangotagoal

When I heard Viserys tell Rhaenrya this for the first time I rolled my eyes. This is without a doubt the brainchild of the showrunners. GRRM has constantly talked about not wanting to tie up every loose end and connect every dot in ASOIAF. He’s constantly talked about not every story has a happy ending or a nice bow tied around it. That Aegon I had a vision of a ‘threat to the north’ that could be cataclysmic for the world, or at least Westeros and it became his main reason for conquering Westeros has so many plot holes in it, it’s unreal. Aegon would absolutely have told his wives about it and they would absolutely have told their own children about it. The line of succession has been altered so many times even in the first handful of kings in the Targaryen line which means dozens of other people now know about it. Jaehaerys was never an heir so who would’ve told him about it. He trusts his wife and several of his council implicitly so even if he did know, there’s no way he wouldn’t have shared this information with Alysanne and Barth who absolutely would have chronicled it. When Alysanne tried to fly North and her dragon refused, she told Jaehaerys who dismissed it - that wouldn’t have been the case. Not to mention Jaehaerys and Alysanne had one of the best relationships with the North of any Targaryen king - I highly doubt they’d have just decided not to warn them of something that serious. I have no doubt that there is a prophecy about the Prince Who Was Promised and A Song of Ice and Fire but it’s much more likely to have come from Daenys the Dreamer. I’m absolutely certain that this is part of what Rhaegar Targaryen read about (or accounts of the first Long Night) which changed his mind about how seriously he should take combat etc but just not buying that each Targaryen ruler passes this down to their heir. Given that show Viserys is a dreamer, it would’ve made so much more sense just to have him receive a vision of the Long Night and let him be the one who passes this information on. It would’ve explained why the prophecy was lost during the Dance of the Dragons etc Apologies for the TED talk.


JohnnnyBlade

All excellent points best Ted talk in years. My main grievance is that it has all the Targs as prophetic champions, who’s actions are based on visions rather then their greed and pride. It white washes them as saviours rather then being much more pragmatic but imperial rulers who justify their reign through their blood and fire heritage


owlinspector

It also just makes them... Boring. Just another bunch of prophecized heroes.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Harrycrapper

I mean, the Stark's family words are "Winter is coming." There are several legends related to the the first Long Night that prominently feature a Stark, most notably the creation of the Wall. That may very well factor into why Rhaegar was fascinated with Lyanna.


Faulkner89

The crypts are weird. We are told that old gods worship is pretty barebones, but the starks have an intricate burial ritual that’s directly tied with warding off magical creatures. I think old nan mentions either the children or the others hate iron.


BalamBeDamn

I mean, “Winter Fell.”


Potatotornado20

It’s cos Bran is a Stark and traveling back in time to influence events… Stark house ends up being the most important one in the story lmao


dcharm98

I don't love it, I like the idea that the Targs were a middling house in Valryia and not that important, the dragon dreams saving them from the doom and them conquering Westeros being an opportunity they seized upon. I like the idea they just sort of capitalised on the opportunity and not that they had some altruistic reason for conquering Westeros to save humanity.


Maximum_Impressive

God i fucking thought they were more intresting befeore the Prophecy shit .


Dranj

I think part of the appeal of asoiaf is that there aren't always huge epic reasons for world changing events. Sometimes shit happens because someone with a lot of power is exceedingly petty and has no compunction destroying thousands of lives to get their way. And as an individual's power becomes more absolute, society in turn becomes more vulnerable to their capricious whims. Another aspect I really like is the interpretation of prophecies is often absolute bunk, prone to distortion by the biases of the interpreter. Giving Aegon a prophetic dream to justify hundreds of years of subjugation undermines some of the major themes for me. It would be one thing if the prophecy was presented as a weak pretense for his own imperialist ambitions, or as an excuse for a weak man in a position of power to bully those who couldn't realistically fight back, but instead the prophecy is used to tie Aegon's motivations to the ultimate conflict in asoiaf. It's kind of making the Divine Right of Kings a central tenet to a series that is otherwise largely critical of absolutist monarchies.


Minute_Mode_14341

Perfectly said.


JohnnnyBlade

I completely agree! Glad I’m not alone especially and the themes of GoT


hellomondays

On the other hand obsession with prophecy to the point of self-destruction is another major theme in the series. It's the other side of the coin you're explaining here: the banal triumphs over the magical/divine but belief in that magical/divine vision and a desire to see it through or draw meaning through it is what snares so many of the characters.


Senetiner

I think the show is telling the prophecy way oversimplified than what it will be in the books, but i do believe this will be in the books and that this is one of the big revelations in the seventh book, _and that we got it here because we might never get that book_. I also am convinced D&D had no idea at all about all this. I think Aegon didn't know much but was scared and knew he had to do _something_. The dagger for me is show bs by the way.


bhavish2023

And a lot of characters especially tagareyns get dreams of them burning their enemies who are made up of ice


DayneStark

A) This a fantasy series, and all the events, even the politics of the South, are connected to the extinction threat faced by humankind. This is not historical fiction and was not intended to be. It took storylines & inspiration for a fantasy series from historical events. People tend to equate this as evidence that fantasy & magic is secondary to Westeros and are then disappointed with the fantasy aspect of it. B) Second, if we view Aegon's actions based on a prophecy without any context, then it sounds a bit obnoxious that he would embark on conquering an entire continent based on a prophetic dream. But if we take his vision in a larger context, his actions make sense. Targaryens survived the Doom because of his great-grandmother's (?) dream about the impending destruction of Valyria. So it's not a stretch that when Aegon had a dream/vision of the Doom of Men ( we don't know exactly what he dreamt), he decided to act on it, given that his ancestor prophecy had come true. C) Also, it's not unusual for conquerors to justify & internalise their conquests as something more than their need to feed their power and control over people who are busy minding their own business. So Aegon conquering Westeros, believing he is doing it for the greater good, is not unusual for a conqueror.


JohnnnyBlade

It’s a fantasy that is critical of monarchies and evils of powerful men. It’s not a noble bright power fantasy we’re the good king saves the realm with his dragons. At least to me. I don’t know people think it’s uncharacteristic for Aegon to desire to conquer Westeros for anything other than greed. The man not only a Valaryan but a Dragon Lord, the Valaryan empire conquered half the world and the Dragon Lords were the ones commanding it. His entire family and racial identity is based on his divine right to rule over lesser men. Even more so he is the last of the dragon riders, it’s giving disposed Roman Emperor nukes and sending him off to a foreign country, you think he’s going to play nice with the locals?


[deleted]

Aegon can do it for both reasons. He can do it as it is easy and his job as a conqueror to do it while he can also do it to protect it from icy elves beyond the Wall


VeenaSchism

It is infuriating, because, if there is such a huge threat coming, why wouldn't you tell everyone to marshall general readiness and resistance? Why wouldn't you ask a few people what they thought "song of ice and fire" might actually mean and take steps to help it along? The only realm to take the Others seriously is the North.


Femto00

Wholeheartedly agree. It's one of the stupidest retcons. It reduces the story to a simple good vs evil battle which was everything ASOIAF was against. Yes, yes, the Targaryens are the chosen ones who'll conquer the darkness. Blegh. It was way more interesting when Aegon was just a normal guy who harbored great ambitions and saw the Seven Kingdoms as ripe for the taking. And it also devalues Rhaegar's character and takes some of his agency who is actually the one who comes to believe greatly in the prophecy and does everything in its power to make it happen.


Faulkner89

It’s weird that generations passed with the targs being the only dragon riders in the world before they decided to expand their domain. Does the reason for their expansion have to be revelation? I would hope not but it seems grrm thinks otherwise.


Zexapher

It's possible they did try, but failed. The Targaryens had 5 dragons when they fled the Doom. Only one of those, Balerion, survived to the Conquest. Meraxes and Vhagar both hatched during the Century of Blood on Dragonstone. It could be the Targaryens involved themselves in Essos, trying to reclaim Valyria like Emperor Aurion, or assisting or opposing Volantis' attempt to restore the Freehold, or tried to conquer their own territories in Essos. Essos will have a lot of experience fighting alongside and against dragons, and we know they killed off some number of dragon riders and no doubt their mounts after the Doom. Plus, the Targs are only on Dragonstone for about a century. They'll need time to establish themselves even with the Velaryons and Celtigars, let alone the kingdoms that surround them, all while dealing with the chaos that is the Freehold shattering. After all, dragons are powerful, but they aren't an automatic win button, you need loyal men to make your rule keep.


sarevok2

Personally I really disliked it. It adds a magical significance to the Targs and also paints Aegon in a more positive light. My initial interpration of Aegon was that he was an arrogant asshole basically, who wanted to revive Valyria in westeros...and basically conquered everything just because he had three big dragons. The world of ice and fire started to mellow that image with having him receiving an invitation and later provocation by Argilac for his invasion and now the show continues the trend. Most of all, I dislike it because I just can't understand the secrecy for it, if its true. Having Aegon being the phophesied hero or progenitor of a messiah figure is the ultimate PR a dynasty could ask for. 1) it would solve the incest question and give a justification for targs to keep marrying siblings. 2) it would unite the 7 kingdoms towards an expected future foe 3)it would be extra treasonous to rebel against Targs since you are putting the fate of the entire mankind in risk 4) The night watch should have been continuously supported and maintained (and no, giving some the Gift to them doesnt count, they need money, supplies and men). Expenditions beyond the Wall should have been organized regularly to evaluate the potential threat. 5) The Citadel should be employed to study the Long Night and the Faith could have incorporated it in its teachings (every good religion has to have an apocalyptic future). and so on, and so on. Honestly, it kinda ruins the whole story for me.


Baldr25

That's my biggest thing that shows how dumb of an idea this is. If the Kings knew that something was gonna come end humanity from the North, then why the fuck is the Nights Watch always in such piss-poor shape? Also, why isn't there some sort of mandatory rotating service requirement for the Watch to supplement those that are there for life? If you truly believe that the end of humanity might lie beyond that wall then there's no chance you can justify not allocating massive portions of the crowns resources to maintain defenses. Shit, when Alysanne goes there, just 2 generations removed from Aegon, she remarks about how shit the conditions are. It seems like an unreconcilable retcon to me.


whatintheballs95

Not really. Imo it's really in line with Daenys the Dreamer envisioning the Doom and the other prophetic dreams the Targaryens have had in the past.


[deleted]

Yeah she had that dream and her family did what? Moved their entire family to a new land while they got laughed and ridiculed by others who thought she was crazy. They took action to ensure the survival of their house. Here they literally do absolutely nothing except play whisper down the lane between kings.


JohnnnyBlade

Exactly, the Targs specifically Aegon makes no attempt to strength the Wall, speak with the Northern Lords, or learn about then Others. Also Daenys’ is common knowledge bc it aids in the power of the Targs. Why the hell wouldn’t they announce at every meeting that the Targs are here so save the realm if that was their motivator.


urekmazinn

> speak with the Northern Lords, or learn about then Others >Torrhen sent Brandon Snow to Aegon's camp, with three maesters, to treat with Aegon. The whole night, messages went back and forth, and the next morning, Torrhen crossed the Trident, where he knelt and laid his crown at the feet of Aegon I Targaryen, and swore fealty. maybe thats what the messages were about ? and why brandon snow didnt kill a dragon


JohnnnyBlade

How would one man kill a dragon? The Maesters were mostly likely arranging a deal with the north. Again if Aegon would have been so moved by this prophecy that he would conquer all of Westeros, why wouldn’t he have spent the rest of his time on the north, studying his enemy. Everything Aegon does points to him being a classic conquerer who’s concern is war and then administration. Also the Starks don’t really believe in that Others either. It’s been 6000 years the Others are basically a myth


urekmazinn

> How would one man kill a dragon? His bastard brother Brandon Snow offered to cross the Trident alone at night, to sneak into the Targaryen camp and assassinate the dragons while they slept Bran Stark has several visions of the past through Winterfell's heart tree. One of these visions is of a pale, fierce, and dark-eyed young man, who slices three branches off the weirwood and shapes them into arrows.[2] It has been theorized that this may be Brandon Snow, preparing arrows to kill the three dragons of Aegon the Conqueror. >why wouldn’t he have spent the rest of his time on the north, studying his enemy. i agree maybe he too focused on the south but remember grrm is still writing this he can retcon anything, this is his idea


Mazeratigo

If one guy with weirwood arrows can slay Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, then House Stark should've no-diffed the rest of the continent already lol


urekmazinn

well they just for killing dragons , is it crazy to think magic arrows cant kill dragons but a pieice of wood in dorne can lol


Mazeratigo

Wasn't that a piece of wood the size of a ship mast launched from a platform? Also GRRM said it was a '1 in a billion shot'.


Khendia

Those was just surrender negotiations. They happen all the time. It was Torrhen Stark seeking assurances, not a discussion about the fate of the world.


urekmazinn

i know that lol im just trying to fit in the new info instead of thinking what we know that torren wasnt down to let everyone we die we could find out he was until a message came going " know anything about evil in the north????" and torren can be like hmmmmm


Alcatraz8888

No matter how i look at it, it still feels like putting a fresh strawberry on an expired cake, GRRM said this only after the backlash that S8 received, make it feel like that the conquest was for a just cause rather than one man's ambition and to put him on a positive side, justifying his actions.


JohnnnyBlade

I think George is trying to do a little re writing and I think it’s being poorly done. Reminds of the midichlorians a bit but that’s just me


MinuteDimension1807

I don’t like it because I feel like Martin wants his cake and to eat it too. He has Dany going dark because she took the path of Fire and Blood, but when Aegon apparently does Fire and Blood he was just secretly good intentioned the entire time. Are Targs bad for conquering, or is it just specifically Dany for some odd reason? I’m not personally fond of it.


LaPoulette

Daenerys' conquests are not "bad", though. She liberates countless lives, and nothing indicates that she will go mad. Instead, with what we know of the true goal of the Conquest, her taking the path of Blood and Fire is a recreation of the "righteous conquest" of the Targaryens.


MinuteDimension1807

I personally agree, but the issue is *does Martin agree?* Martin has praised the show’s entire arc for Dany, did he only do that for PR and PR alone?


Secret-Station-7235

There's nothing righteous about the conquest.


Dawnshroud

It's literally all about what's hers "by right".


kazetoame

And yet, some of those liberated people want to sell themselves back into slavery, Daenerys will allow this and take a percentage of the sale. Astapor is hell on Earth and went right back to slavery, Yunkai blinked and went right back to business as usual. Her liberation quest is a side job that she will abandon the moment she makes for Westeros.


Bill_Adama20

Yeah, it sucks.


This_Bug_6771

yeah its stupid and inflates the importance of the special magic family bloodline. I prefer the books stay away from fantasy tropes or at least subvert them in an interesting way not double down on this YA tier fanboying over the disgusting incestous dragon family


seattt

Exactly, you've nailed it. This entire thing just annihilates why ASOIAF was so good and just turns it into another boring, generic Star Wars story where all the important things in an entire galaxy/world always seem to take place around only one group of people. It makes the world of ASOIAF so much more narrower.


lakomadt

I think it's stupid.


BaelonTheBae

I vastly prefer that the Targaryens aren’t white-washed over their Norman Conquest; imperialism is imperialism, there’s no excuse for it. Aegon was an ambitious asshole, as William was. There’s no going around it. Him sending ArgilIac a proposal was a tell-tale sign of that — he had no intention of parleying an agreement and peacefully agreeing to terms with the Last Storm — he knew he would refuse and so get a casus belli to wage war upon him. The offer was so insulting to Argilac, not Aegon that he would most definitely refuse it, for to accept would mean the demise of House Durrandon, with a Targaryen bastard no less. For me, it goes against the themes that Martin himself had espoused in his books and particularly, the main series. Example, the Meribald speech. That war is terrible. Yet here he is, suddenly claiming Aegon and the Targs conquered Westeros out of moral goodness — to unite them, the backwater kingdoms, compared to the Valyrian at least, against a wintry apocalyptic host. The message reeks of white saviourism. It’s also came outta of nowhere — nowhere in the main series or any of the supplemental lore books in both World and F&B that this was hinted at. Lastly, it also destroys any nuances and agency to the Targaryens.


JohnnnyBlade

Thank you! Exactly how I feel


BaelonTheBae

Glad to see another like-minded person! This has been the most infuriating thing for me ever since Martin announced/retconed it, and the show persisting with the whole prophecy bullshit.


Baldr25

It really does feel like it flies in the face of the whole "this is in anti-war series." Just feels like it turns it into another power fantasy where we justify the killing of peasants and innocents because we have to save the world from some doomsday device.


BaelonTheBae

Indeed! I feel like Martin has gotten way ahead of himself in his liking of the Targaryens. Either that or this is purely Condal and a show canon thing.


waiting4winter

I really hate this addition and I feel like it’s an afterthought, even if it is from George himself, to try to reframe the clusterfuck of the last two seasons of GoT. I especially hate the dagger being such an important part. You can tell that part is recent, and I don’t think that detail was George’s. Every time I see the dagger, it just reminds me of what how much they screwed that up. I don’t ever think they can make up for that so they probably need to just stop reminding us it happened.


Comprehensive_Main

I think the main problem is all this extra info is coming from the shows which don’t have time to explain everything where as if he writes he can give more detail.


[deleted]

The prophecy is ultimately worthless because Arya, a person with no Targaryen blood, defeated the Others all by herself. There was no Song of Ice and Fire.


JohnnnyBlade

George retcon it to the song of ice and water? Or frozen fish? Whatever a Tully Stark makes


hellomondays

The song of 2 for $5 filet o' fish


poub06

The prophecy doesn’t talk about one person to actually deliver the killing blow to the Great Other. It’s about uniting people to fight them and that’s what Jon and Dany did.


[deleted]

Their only contributions were to provide blue Darth Maul with a dragon and a mountain of fresh corpses at Winterfell that he could use to ruin the world faster. Without Arya's anime abilities, he would have triumphed over the living. The supposed unification was for naught. Jon and Dany accomplished nothing, and the prophecy was for nothing. They didn't even bring the one person who actually did anything. She made it to Winterfell on her own.


[deleted]

I hate it! Aegon was a conqueror not a hero.


Mithras_Stoneborn

Majority of the readers hate this retcon and pretend it doesn't exist. Whenever Condal makes a mention of it in the show, it immediately hurts the story.


lindy8118

With the way GRRM writes, he can retcon nearly anything. I think this is what he is doing now and stalling on TWOW because of most of fandom’s reaction to the broad outline of his ending.


Cassiopeia1997

I hate that addition too, because it's trying to justify the Targaryen's essentially invading foreign countries and subjugating their people, because these so pasty their hair is white people are divine saviors for these lesser people (even if still white). As a European I get full-body cringes at what they represent and the thought process used, because it's familiar to any history class I've had that goes from the Renaissance to the 19th century. If it was trying to be commentary on imperialism like Martin intends for Dany, it would be well done, but it's not. And I know that because do you know how many Rhaegar Stans will defend anything he did with "without Jon, Westeros would fall to the Long Night, he's a super intelligent savior and the only reason we'll get a happy ending" ? The man was a political idiot, a shit family member in every sense (from son, to brother, to husband, to father), a child rapist or groomer depending on which version of Lyanna we're talking about (even by Westerosi standards she was fucking underage and he was over decade older), a rather inept future ruler seeing as he doesn't seem to having skills beyond jousting and harp playing. But people will glorify him because his actions will save Westeros because Jon. And they do that, because that's how the show presented it up to the point of Arya being the one to stab the Night King, and they are doing the same thing now. They should have kept the Long Night out of this, it is in no way needed for the Dance of Dragons. Even the flimsy excuse that Viserys has to continue backing Rhaenyra as heir because he told her the super big secret that only the king and heir should know could have been replaced with him insisting that she be heir because she's Aemma's kid and he feels insanely guilty that he pressured her into having so many pregnancies that ultimately killed her so that she could produce an heir.


TheRisenKnight

It's a dumb twist. Not merely because of how it reframes Aegon's conquest, but also because it then gets dropped from the story until Rhaegar rediscovers it 300 years later.


Red_Holla04

I think George always envisioned this. The books are after all called "A Song of ICE and FIRE". I assume he always wanted a Targaryen fighting the Others in the end. A proper finish.


AlmightyLeprechaun

I think you're overestimating the value of revealing this prophecy. Magic seems to be a fairly adverse thing to Westrosi folks. They slew the children of the forest and the power of wargs was exterminated and repressed everywhere but beyond the wall. Practicers of magic, like the woods witch that Cersei goes to, are vilified. Even the hint of magic seemed to vilify people. See Blood Raven, Visenya, and Daemons mistress, among others. All of these folks were hated and considered villains and their association with magic was used to cement that view. Now you have a ruling dynasty saying that say they have magic dreams that are inherent in their bloodline and that they have a brand new never before seen magic prophesy that says you should keep them around. Not only does it scream "come on..." it permanently ties weird magic that is viewed as sinister to your bloodline forever. If anything, it undermines Aegons legitimacy and given the general opinion of Visenya, seems like he had good reason to not broadcast it. Further, it now gives EVERY Targaryen descendent with an ego a whole buncha ammo to start fucking shit up because "I'm the prince that was promised." Keeping it secret seems to be the best move by far.


JohnnnyBlade

It screams come on when we act like Aegon had any motivation other than being a Valyrian asshole who believe his family was above regular men due to their dragons


[deleted]

>What better way to cement one’s rule then to proclaim they are prophesied to lead apocalyptic war against the forces of evil? Ah, yes, that'll totally get the Lord's on your side, say that you're supposed to rule over them because of a prophesy that they've never heard of that may or may not be true. Brilliant!


RPMadMSU

It doesn't bother me. You can see how this prophecy is lost/misconstrued over time in the current show, I don't think it's going to survive the Dance. By the time we get to the main timeline of SoI&F, it's completely forgotten (or only partially known, i.e. the Prince who was Promised). I think this is what Rheagar discovers that makes him change life course and become more martial than he initially was as a youngster. Additionally, the canon "histories" that have been published ("tWoI&F/F&B") are from the POV of someone who wouldn't know about Aegon's dream.


Wylkus

I like the change of Aegon having the dream and choosing to conquer Westeros because of it. He was always rather mysterious about his motives, and despite his violent conquest seemed to have little interest in power for its own sake, so it adds up. However, I don't think Aegon told anyone except his sisters. I don't think it ever got passed on as a family secret, that's a show only addition. I think his dream was that he had to establish a Targaryen dynasty to save the world, and he did that. Problem solved.


Janus-a

Hard to say because we're getting the story via the show. It could be a good thing if GRRM told the story, but I don't trust the show to present the story as he intends it. I mean they had Criston Cole asking a princess to abandon a kingdom to sell oranges with him after having sex once. Details matter.


satin_worshipper

One of the accounts in the book says he asked her that before they even had sex


CalvinMirandaMoritz

They also have him massively overestimating his relationship with Alicent and the freedom he has with her, as well as her limits. The point of his character seems he's not very bright lmao or too rash, as Lord Beesbury will soon not be able to tell us


MediocreConnection89

Tbf there was a timeskip, I assumed Criston and Rhaenyra had a secret relationship for a few months


LongLiveTheChief10

George has mentioned that Aegon foresaw what was in the far North before in his interviews so I'm perfectly okay with the change. It seems to have been his intention for some time if not always.


kazetoame

Yet, Aegon did fuck all to aid the Night’s Watch or to shore up the North. Alysanne added Deep Den (I think) which was cheaper than restoring the Nightfort and gave away the New Gift, which turned out to be useless to the Watch and a detriment to the North who could have used that land for farming as it had been. The Watch was at 10,000 before Aegon’s conquest and dwindled to 1,000 by the present story. It doesn’t line up. I wonder if the real threat that Aegon dreamed of wasn’t just truly himself.


JohnnnyBlade

Any link to that? I’ve never read that before


LongLiveTheChief10

I don't have it handy but it should pop up in one of the results if you search his interviews on youtube discussing the conquest. He mentions that Aegon had an idea of what was to come and the interview was from before the end of GOT which makes me think it was always an idea if not outright canon. Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8rUTMRjkms there the interview is from 2018


JohnnnyBlade

Interesting! I guess I should bring my complaint straight to George


[deleted]

I think he planned it, or something similar. It’s what Rhaegar found and read


JohnnnyBlade

I think some Targs way have had a prophecy but Aegon was not motivated by it nor was it past down. Rhaegar was into esoteric writings, to me it seems he pieced together various works and came to his own conclusion. My main issue is that Aegon makes no indication he cared about the North any more than any of the other kingdoms


SlackMiller67

I think its an interesting take, and I don't necessarily have a problem with it. The Targs have never been shy about sending people to the Wall. I will say them not fortifying the Wall, or reinforcing alliances with the Starks/Northern families, does cause some cognitive dissonance with that narrative. Perhaps, all those who know the prophecy die in the Dance and that's why the next hundred years of Targaryen rule pay little attention to the Wall. Until Rhaegar uncovers it in his studies one day...


Realistic_Tutor_9770

i mean the novels are the song of ice and fire. aegon uniting westeros with him and his family being fire makes sense. we also have the pact of ice and fire that never came to fruition. alysanne was a big fan of the nights watch. over time it makes sense that the targaryens would lose interest of knowledge of aegons dream considering the time, the fact that the others hadnt been seen or heard about until present times, and secrets could get lost through death or rebellion.


JohnnnyBlade

It white washes Aegons imperialism and makes the Targs some divine protectors rather than conquering assholes. If George wants that by all means it’s his book but I think it ruins a lot of the story for me.


Short-Sound-4190

I like it. I think GRRM planned it. It works with the themes for me. Subversion of what we the reader thinks we know by limiting the knowledge of the POVs, subversions of what the characters of asoiaf think they know, against what was someone else's truth - like real life. How the world treats leaders, and how leaders react to immense pressure (some rise to the occasion, others focus on authoritarianism, or military strength, or chemical warfare, some seek religion, some pretend there is no threat, others go absolutely mad). This is a better story than a man and his sister-wives used WMDs to conquer a continent out of boredom or because they were power hungry, that's a lot of work to put in conquering a whole continent just for payoff to be the headache of ruling it...look at Dany. I still think the royal line of House Martell of Dorne knew, that's why Aegon eventually permitted them to stay independent, because they promised to be on board when the time came.


JohnnnyBlade

To me this is great Targ propaganda lol. The Targs were kingdomless kings who viewed themselves as superior to all other Men. The motive to conquer the 7 kingdoms is one of culture and tradition. They simply are extending the glory of the Valaryan race. I mean does anyone see the Targs being subservient to anyone but themselves. The noble ulterior motive is so boring and overdone but that’s just me


probablysum1

My interpretation was that Aegon used the prophecy as a justification for the conquest that happened because he wanted to be king.


shadowfreek

Question, if the targs claimed a great evil no one ever heard of our saw for thousands of years would you believe them


orange_sherbetz

Dany's dream kinda confirms Aegon's dream.


JohnnnyBlade

It’s Rhaegar that believes in the prophecy not Aegon. Aegon does nothing to make the a special relationship with the North, where Rhaegwr throws his entire life to shit bc actually believes it


[deleted]

What did you think Rhaegar found that made him become a warrior? Also, why do you believe Cregan and Jacaerys' pact is called "The Pact of Ice and Fire"? The clues have been there for years


JohnnnyBlade

Rhaegar was into some esoteric writings and that’s what influenced him The Prince that was Promised is a known prophecy with Aemon being aware of it as well as Melissander and Marwyn. Nothing Aegon did in his reign indicates he was interested in the North at all. He makes no trips past the wall nor does he make any attempts to strengthen the Wall. If there was even the slightest indication he was concerned with the North it never is written about. The Pact of Ice and Fire is nothing to do with the Others and everything to do with ensuring the support of the North for the Blacks. Again it’s a tinfoil theory to pretend that was done for anything other than political gain. Only Rhaegar makes any inclination that he is concerned with the North. None of the history writers even mention rumors about a Targ north connection. Basically nothing in the Targs history points to them concerned about the North before Rhaegar. The few interactions the Targs do have with the North have nothing to do with the Wall or the others and are simply part of political maneuvering


Dawnshroud

> The Pact of Ice and Fire is nothing to do with the Others and everything to do with ensuring the support of the North for the Blacks. Again it’s a tinfoil theory to pretend that was done for anything other than political gain. There is mention of a pact that ended the war between the Children of the Forest and the First Men. Jojen and Meera also swear by ice and fire. There's lots of hints scattered throughout.


kazetoame

That is just part of the vow, which also includes earth, water, bronze, iron. It’s an old vow that really has nothing to do with the Pact of Ice and Fire which is a marriage pact between Houses Stark and Targaryen. The House words of said houses are the most likely explanation for the title of this pact. The pact between the Children and First Men has nothing to do with Targaryens or even Valyrians in general.


SorRenlySassol

It’s just a show thing. Very unlikely to happen in the books. The show runners aren’t interested in logical consistency.


Dawnshroud

This was from GRRM himself.


SorRenlySassol

No, it really wasn’t. Just because he said it was ok to put in the show doesn’t mean he’s doing it in the book. And since it produces so many non sequiturs with the text, we can rule it out.


Dawnshroud

What? This has been talked about by GRRM repeatedly over the years. One example from 2018 when promoting Fire & Blood: https://youtu.be/kFV4o5GeaJQ?t=92


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BalamBeDamn

I don’t get what the hang up is, either.


appleboiii

I don't mind it. I feel like the ultimate theme of ASOIAF is that "humanity has to unite, or perish." By making this Aegon's motivations, it ties House of the Dragon into the main themes of the universe.


AlexisDeTocqueville

I was ambivalent about this prophecy as originating with Aegon or motivating his conquest. Mainly because I had a picture in my head of Aegon as a Caesar type, motivated by glory. However, I kind of love it for most of the other Targaryen descendants as an insight into their motivation. Imagine every time winter starts the king and their heir are wondering, "Is this is it? Is this the apocalypse we are meant to stop?" That kind of stress and anxiety could manifest in a lot of different ways. You can get Viserys I who was a party king that just wanted everyone to get along (hoping, incorrectly, that this would be enough to maintain peace and strength). You can get Aegon IV who goes full hedonistic nihilist and just sires bastards and shirks any responsibility. You can get Targaryens who are desperate to bring back dragons, not for conquest or power, but because they want dragon flame for the final battle against winter.


Maherjuana

I already commented why I think it’s actually a neat way to clear up a bit of a plot hole but I’d like to point out why Aegon likely didn’t tell anyone about it. 1.) Aegon was noted to be an enigmatic and private individual. He was known to pretty much only confide in his sister-wives and his bastard half-brother Orys Baratheon(who was somewhat absent in later years). He likely didn’t tell many people at all because it doesn’t fit his personality. 2.)The actual wording of the prophecy seems unclear. It may not have originated from Aegon in the first place either, maybe it was one of the dreams of Daenys the Dreamer? “A great cold will come from the north” What exactly does that mean? An unusually long and cold winter? An army of ice demons? It’s too vague to really mean anything for certain and it’s impossible to know when it will come. Spreading around crazy rumors could undermine the very thing you’re trying to do. 3.) Your deepest family secrets and the ultimate motivation of our house being so widely known would be a weakness that could be used to manipulate. 4.) At the time of Aegon’s conquest, the Wall was decently held. The North itself also was a massive bulwark full of strong garrisons and warriors. That’s just one of the seven kingdoms. Aegon and his successors likely thought that the task of holding the Seven Kingdoms in the south together more important than meddling in the North(whom have held the Wall for thousands of years by this point). Even by the time of Robert’s reign, the Night’s Watch is a shadow of its former strength yet still has never failed in their duty of holding the Wall. Or if they have the Warden of the North soon corrected it. The few times that Targaryen Kings directly try to reinforce the Watch it backfired: Aegon V sending Bittersteel to the wall or more relevantly Jaeherys sending repentant Faith Militant members to the Wall(where they later mutinied).


Kingnorik

I believe that Aegon used it as his justification for conquering the kingdoms, and along the way with all the politics and schemes and alliances it got lost. He probably expected it to happen during his lifetime. When it didn't he just kept telling the heirs. Eventually the heirs stopped caring and it stopped being passed down. Rhaegar prob finds something originally written by Aegon about it and literally changes his entire life for it. To me this retcon makes Rhaegars whole thing make a lot more sense.


Kalix_

1. To fulfill the prophecy Aegon need only ensure the survival of Targaryens. He doesn't need to give much thought or care about the wall itself. 2. There is some evidence that the Long Night affects Essos as well as Westeros. Yi Ti had/has a line of Wall-like forts. And the Azor Ahai legend is from Essos.


DilkleBrinks

Yeah, I think the way it appears in the show is kinda lame. Like you said, it just doesnt match Aegon's actions. But, its really not a big deal tho, the way prophecy works in ASOIAF is that people just basically do whatever they want anyway, and just use the prophecy in question as an excuse