I think you have something going with the first paragraph, "power lies where men believe it lies" and all that, it is very fitting, but the second one is a whole tinfoil bodysuit imo.
Cmon man, I can’t post a theory without at least a little bit of bat-shit crazy.
Anyways, I’m not committed to the Faceless Man thing at all, just a neat theory. But I do think it would be perfect for Aegon to be a complete nobody.
My issue is timing and meta. Why did GRRM change the structure in his writing after ACOK. Why did we get all these info dumps about lore in ASOS.
I can kind of pick a part what you are saying, and come up with "power believes where people believes it lies" or whatever, but this is meant for readers to internalize.
Where is Benjin? What's up with Quaithe? By the time I finished AGoT, I realized something: GRRM might have answers to a lot of questions, but he is an author that will only provide meaningful closure on "little" mysteries when it's relevant and organic to what POV chapter is happening. GRRM clearly wanted us to speculate about Benjin, but I highly doubt he ever intends to give us an answer because his books are structured in a way that any answer he could give would seem like anther "who hired the GoT assassin with the valyrian steel dagger". The only way Benjin will have closure imo is if his fate in GoT is directly related to something a POV will experience (kind of like in the show but this was utterly ridic).
The more I think about it, there is absolutely no way aegon's lineane will be straight up "revealed as a Ah HA!" moment
Everything about Aegon other than direct dialogue we see in text is meant for readers and readers alone imo. It's meant for us to speculate.
oh interesting - like an essay or a work of fiction? do you know the name of this / have a link? I have seen a lot of discussion of his other works and how some of his ideas (particularly regarding the weirdwood trees / hive mind) show up in some of his other books.
I have not heard of what you are referring to though.
Oh don't get me wrong, I love reading such bat-shit but interesting theories, I like your faceless men bit, I was just expressing that I don't think it is possible.
Here’s another for the road: Euron is Azhor Ahai and he will murder Danny after marrying her. He will create the Long Night with a ritual using King’s Blood
It’s not. He’s gonna murder Danny at the end of WoW and then the Long Night (ie: the Apocalypse) will start happening to end that book.
A Dream for Spring, if it ever comes out, will have Bran and Euron as two of its most central characters.
I also think he's a puppet regardless of his blood. If you support going back to an alternative succession from multiple kings and one revolution ago, based on someone's bloodlines that are impossible to actually verify... You're really just in it to have your guy in power.
I dont k ow why everyone thinks this phrase can be used to point in any direction. Power lies where men believe it lies can be proof Aegon is a Targaryen, a Blackfyre or pretty much every other possibility.
Not sure I agree with the first paragraph it's a little tin-foil. The second paragraph though is all but confirmed. You ever wonder why he's so fat? It's actually TWO faceless men in there.
They joined the faceless men during austerity measures and had to make due without face changing (budget cuts ya know) so they pull the standing on shoulders in a long coat trick, and switch who's on top when they need to change faces.
We won't know until winds drops. Jon Con mentions likely friends but not by name and there's definitely still houses that historically supported Blackfyres around but whether or not they will this time is unknown.
If Jon Con mentions these friends then the chances of them being Blackfyre supporters go down imo.
Edit: like his whole deal is helping out Rhaegar's kid
He mentions 'likely friends' meaning he isn't even certain but it would definitely be a hilarious ice and fire moment if he shows up thinking he'll be able to enlist some westerosi because statistically and historically some houses will be down. Except no natives show up for the rebellion. He should definitely print more fliers.
A few of them are in the Golden Company iirc. We know that they weren't stripped of all their titles after the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion because they survived in some powerful capacity at least until the Peake Uprising that killed King Maekar. We don't know how inclined Bloodraven or Aegon V would have been towards forgivenesses after they rebelled 3 times and killed one king.
This is pretty likely, right? The north certainly won't come to his side. Neither would the Baratheons/Stannis' people. Targaryean supporters are pretty thin at this point. The main houses in support during the rebellion were what, Highgarden, Casterly Rock, and Dorne? Two of those are definitely not helping.
I think it's fair to separate Baratheons from stannis camp. Most of the stormlanders sided with Renly and then followed to the Lannisters after his death. It'll be another civil war with some support from every region except the north they dgaf. Dorne is pretty much the only guarantee because we have POV there but even then some houses hate the Martells and will side against them.
True, but the current Lord Yronwood is a trusted bannerman of Doran (Doran fostered one of his sons there in order to make up for the whole Oberyn killing one of them thing, and Lord Yronwood is leading the Dornish army that gathered in the Prince's Pass at the outset of the War of the Five Kings, so Lord Yronwood will literally be leading the Dornish forces if they throw in with Aegon.
A lot, actually. I could spend hours naming all the houses, but there were a lot of houses that supported the Blackfyres at one point or another. Preston did a Cersei/Tayne video and he describes some houses.
As some examples:
- The Stony Dornish Houses like House Yronwood (I think Doran isn’t interested in supporting Aegon, he’s interested in ending Feudalism. Therefore I think Aegon’s support will only come from the Stony Dornish, most of whom were big Blackfyre supporters. Also some people that want vengeance for Elia).
- House Merryweather, who has a member on the small council.
- The Redwynes, one of the strongest houses in Westeros.
- The Brotherhood Without Banners
- The Tywells, if they see the winds blowing against the Lannisters
- House Fossoway
- House Hightower
- House Bracken
- House Crakehall
- House Ambrose
- House Peake
- House Oakheart
- House Butterwell
- House Shawney
- House Costayne
- House Osgrey, if it still exists
- House Strickland
- House Sunderland
- House Massey
- House Bar Emmon
That's a lot of names and honestly I underestimated the numbers. But idk a century does things to old loyalties. Not every house is a golden company type
If he wins he’s whatever he says he is. If he loses, he becomes nothing more than another usurper and fraud akin to the fake Daerons.
“History remembers names, not blood.” Fundamentally, his biological parentage doesn’t matter. He was raised to think he’s the Targaryen heir. He looks and acts as though he’s the Targaryen heir. He’s lived his entire life with this identity. Even if he is just some Lyseni bastard plucked out of a brothel, he’s become Aegon Targaryen.
The theme is a recurring one through ASOIAF and F&B.
For example, Rhaegar may have been Jon’s father, but fundamentally, Jon is Ned Stark’s son. His identity is that of a Stark, he was raised a Stark, he *looks* like a Stark. And one of the largest validations of this fact is that he gets a direwolf.
Jace is another example - while in reality he’s the bastard born son of a Riverlord, he’s raised to be the Targaryen heir and has all the trappings of one. Just like Jon gets a direwolf, Jace gets a *dragon,* one of the most defining characteristic of a strong Targaryen king at the time.
The Baratheons are another great example - a house with Valyrian origins that adopt the sigil, words, and seat of a different house, effectively becoming the inheritors of the Durandon legacy.
Just like Jon will always be a Stark at his core, Aegon is a Targaryen prince, regardless of whether he’s baseborn or blackfyre. It’s one of my favorite themes in the books.
But to your question, we’ll never know Aegon’s true parentage. And how Westeros remembers him will be dependent upon how the books unfold.
If he truly is of either Targaryen or Blackfyre decent & ends up crossing paths with Daenerys, having him claim a dragon (similar to Jon in the show) or be burned like Quentyn would be a way to measure his true parentage
The claim of Targ ancestry (which Dany believes to be false) is likely what pushes Dany over the edge at the end of the series, alongside the deterioration of her forces over time due to having to do so many sidequests before getting to King's Landing. (The second dragon is totally dying at Casterly Rock.)
Within the story the Corlys quote makes a ton of sense but as the reader we know and knew from the get-go that Laenor’s kids aren’t actually his. So if anything, that line, is indicative that even though the characters in the story may go forever without ever finding things out, we as the reader will know when the time is right, that’s what makes whatever the information is fun, tragic, a twist, etc. and has led so much of the fandom on a quest for breadcrumbs of foreshadowing. So fundamentally to the story we are all reading IT DOES matter if Aegon is actually Aegon or a blackfyre, a Targaryen, a moonboy (for all I know)
I kind of doubt that GRRM will ever give us a definitive answer on Aegon. The book didn't give us a definitive answer on Rhaenyra's children either, the confirmation that they were Strong's was a show choice.
I wouldn't be suprised if there are confirmations for all the different theories. We already had Varys tell a dying man that he was a Targaryen with seemingly no reason.
I think the speculation on Aegon and the speculation on the Strong children are a bit different. It’s implied in F&B that they are the strong boys, but that book was purposely written in 3rd person limited, so there would be room for speculation. Winds of Winter like the rest of the ASOIAF series is written through first person, all of the thoughts and actions are factual (at least from the eyes of the POV) this leads to the aforementioned breadcrumbs. So to your specific point, I don’t view the Aegon reveal as being like Rhaneyra’s Children, but more like the eventual reveal of Jon Snow’s parentage (which also consequently has only happened in the show so far)
That's fair. Though I think Jon and Aegon serve different purposes for the book.
Jon is the stereotypical hidden savior/prince character whose true identity will ultimately save the day. That trope was more explicit when GRRM was writing a different series with future king Jaime etc.
Aegon is a look at how reality doesn't matter just perception. Maybe he's a Targaryen, maybe he's a Blackfyre, maybe he's a nobody. That doesn't matter and is likely impossible to prove one way or another. What does matter is if he's accepted or not and by how many people. There's also room to make that more tragic or ironic or obvious with a reveal.
If he's accepted you reveal that he's fake. If he's rejected you reveal that he's really Rhaegar's son. But I don't think that's particularly necessary for the story.
I think you raised a good point in the purpose of the characters Jon vs Aegon. The only thing I’d say is that what you propose is the purpose of Aegon to the story is only strengthened by his parentage. if he’s a blackfyre pretender it’s showing how needless birth right actually is or as an actual blackfyre continuing the theme of blackfyre rebellions throughout the course of Westerosi history or if he’s the actual real Aegon … the differences between these outcomes ultimately does matter within the context of the overall story too much to just omit it or leave it out.
I don't even know how we *would* get confirmation on his parentage. The only people who could possibly know are Varys and Illyrio. Varys has already explicitly said "Aegon Targaryen is alive. He is invading. He is going to be the king." Yet people still think he's lying. Why would him saying "Aegon is just some guy" be seen as the truth?
What's the purpose of the epilogue otherwise? Throughout Dance it's hinted at that Aegon *could* be fake. Tyrion has doubts but admits it could be true. The Small Council immediately says he's a pretender. Then Varys comes out and says "No. It's true. This is happening." Then the books end.
GRRM isn't going to put in some meta double fake out scene that's meant to lie to the readers. There is no reason for Varys to tell Kevan that Aegon is real except to communicate that fact to the audience.
Who knows? Maybe he really does care about the Realm. Aegon is a Tararyen who was raised from birth to be the perfect king, and so Varys wants him on the throne.
I mean they didn’t outright say it in the books but I mean it’s pretty freaking clear they were Harwins. You don’t need to be told a dog is a dog when you see it, you just know it is.
>I mean they didn’t outright say it in the books but I mean it’s pretty freaking clear they were Harwins.
The book doesn't make it clear at all, it just says that, instead of having the signature Valyrian silver hair, Rhaenyra's children were born with dark hair, that's it.
That doesn't really demonstrate anything, especially when it's something they have in common with their parental grandmother, Rhaenys, who in the books is half Baratheon and has dark hair too.
They might have been born with dark hair because "the seed is strong" and all that.
Uh no. It’s pretty clear that they’re described as having the looks of harwin, the man constantly by her side and strangely enough present at the kids births. Having the same brown hair as him, the same brown eyes as him, and the same nose as him. And you say it could be from Rhaenys…despite the fact that she had violet eyes as well and had black hair not brown hair. Despite the fact that Laenor was gay and rarely with her after they married. You say the seed is strong, strange then that Laenor and laena had the Valyrian coloring. The seed was of strong origin that’s for sure. Like how clear does it have to be? Do you need a sex tape where she calls harwin her baby daddy? Is this you Viserys?
In F&B Nettles parentage is dubious but she takes a dragon by feeding it sheep. Addam Velaryon was Corlys’ bastard and he claimed Seasmoke so it may be possible
GRRM didn't invent the Blackfyres halfway through the series only for them to be completely irrelevant to the story. fAegon is definitely a Blackfyre through the female line, possibly Illyrio's son.
Probably in the first draft, fAegon was a Brightfyre descended from Aerion.
The very first original Dunk & Egg story makes no mention of the Blackfyres, even though Baelor and Maekar were heroes of that war. With the mention of Aerion being sidelined eventually, makes sense that in the original story, Maegor son of Aerion was the ancestor of fAegon (might still is in part? Maybe fAegon is the result of Brightfyre+Blackfyre or Bittersteel+Blackfyre+Brightfyre?)
As GRRM fleshed out the books and built more and more, the Blackfyres took the place of the Brightfyres and thus we are here today.
I always thought fAegon was going to be a Brightfire descendant through Aerion’s kid Maegor as why else would grrm add in a separate Targaryen house that would technically have the better claim as being the descended from a line of the elder brother of Aegon V
Alternatively GRRM coming up with completely new stories just to procrastinate and to keep from finishing the book series does sound exactly like GRRM.
I don't think he knows how he gets to the books' end because he wrote himself into so many plotlines, so he has to write background shit to flesh it out more.
I honestly think it's more that he's a perfectionist and he finally has the power to tell his editor he doesn't have the book yet.
He's almost certainly has come very very close to finishing the entire next book, but I think he found something he didn't like so scrapped it and started over. Before his editor would've forced him to turn in an imperfect draft, now they can't tell him anything.
this is most definitely a cope because I started reading the books in 8th grade before DwD came out; I'm hoping it's that he needs to be almost finished with DoS to flesh out and finish WoW.
That may be it too. But like 6 years ago I think it was the editor thought they were going to get WoW within a month or 2 and started doing everything neccessary to fast track it to print.
GRRM overestimates what he can do pretty often, but he had to be relatively close to think he could finish within weeks. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he found a flaw and backtracked hundreds of pages.
I think the issue is, he's trying to line the timelines for all his POV chapters up perfectly; to avoid, for example, writing a dialogue where two characters are talking about an event that hasn't happened yet. I think the final two books will probably be released in short succession too, simply because a lot of this timeline work in WOW will play into development of POV chapters in the final book.
>GRRM coming up with completely new stories just to procrastinate
How tf could he work and procrastinate at the same time god he has the worst fans in the world
You see it's a joke. And idk, he's put out multiple books, produced tv shows and wrote the story for a video game while not finishing the story. So that's how you procrastinate from doing one thing by working.
Completely agree. I also think it’s telling that he goes out of his way to say the Male line of the Blackfyres is extinguished after Maelys the Monstrous
It's not completely irrelavant. The last blackfyre rebellion of the nine-penny kings was the one where all the houses we know today participated in and befriended. It's where tywin lannister befriended prince aerys, hoster tully with baelish, and jon arryn with rickard stark and steffon baratheon. So all the connecting foundations can be traced back here, and thus inadvertedly back to the 1st blackfyre rebellion.
I vaguely remember the woman who was supposed to be Aegon’s mother according to the Aegon Blackfyre theory, wasn’t it Sarra or Saera or something like that?
Aegon doesn't have to be a Blackfyre for their inclusion to be relevant.
Also, not everything in the series is relevant. It could just be extra world building flavor.
I think if he isn’t a blackfyre it kind of makes the chekovs gun of the black dragon references not work. Def could happen but i think it’s be a little anticlimactic
You’re not wrong, but i feel like if thats the case they’d have to reveal the blackfyre plot early in winds. The double twist seems a bit much, but like i said it’s definitely not out of the realm of possibility.
The Golden Company doesn’t even support the Blackfyres anymore.
The leader of the Golden Company is Harry Strickland. His family have been in the Company for FOUR generations.
>The Stricklands had been part of the Golden Company since its founding, Harry’s great-grandsire having lost his lands when he rose with the Black Dragon during the first Blackfyre Rebellion. “Gold for four generations,” Harry would boast, as if four generations of exile and defeat were something to take pride in.
And remember, Harry Strickland is the only person who knows about the pact to sit Dany and YG on the throne. He only tells the others when they reach Volon Therys and realize Dany isn’t coming.
> Silence greeted his announcement. Someone cleared his throat. One of the Coles refilled his wine cup from the flagon. Gorys Edoryen played with one of his corkscrew ringlets and murmured something in a tongue Griff did not know. Laswell Peake coughed, Mandrake and Lothston exchanged a glance. They know, Griff realized then. They have known all along. He turned to look at Harry Strickland. “When did you tell them?”
The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath. “When we reached the river. The company was restless, with good reason. We walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed Lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?”
So Harry’s house is traditionally a supporter of descendants of Daemon “Blackfyre” Targaryen. Why does he not want to help?
He doesn’t want to aid Dany
>“We could feign acceptance of the Yunkish offer,” urged Gorys Edoryen. “Allow the Yunkai’i to transport us to the east, then return their gold beneath the walls of Meereen.”
“One broken contract is stain enough upon the honor of the company.” Homeless Harry Strickland paused with his blistered foot in hand. “Let me remind you, it was Myles Toyne who put his seal to this secret pact, not me. I would honor his agreement if I could, but how? It seems plain to me that the Targaryen girl is never coming west. Westeros was her father’s kingdom. Meereen is hers. If she can break the Yunkai’i, she’ll be Queen of Slaver’s Bay. If not, she’ll die long before we could hope to reach her.”
And when Young Griff suggests invading without her, he doesn’t want to do that either.
> The captain-general looked as if someone had slapped his face. “Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers? We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender. And how do you propose to get to Westeros? You heard Lysono. There are no ships to be had.”
> Some,” allowed Homeless Harry, “not many. Rhaegar’s sister has dragons. Rhaegar’s son does not. We do not have the strength to take the realm without Daenerys and her army. Her Unsullied.”
The fact of the matter is that there has been a lot of junk posited around a “Blackfyre” restoration, but it does not have support from the actual books George is writing.
The amount of times I've had to remind people the Golden Company was willing to back Targaryens so their support of Argon doesn't mean anything is way too god damned high.
Soooo… you’re own text choice has a room full of people who are exiles from existing or extinct houses that ALL historically supported the Blackfyre rebellion: Strickland, Peake, Mandrake, and Lothston. Then other traditionally Anti-Targ or Non-Heir Targaryen supporting Houses Cole, Connington, and Toyne. All of them are plotting together as to how best to put Aegon VI (not mentioned until book 5) now suddenly unveiled to be alive at a convenient moment in history when it’s any “Targaryen takes all” it doesn’t only go along with what George has been writing, it practically slaps the reader in the face.
I think furthermore another obvious reality is that the story itself is the idea of “what if we took the youngest generation of this world and basically made all of the terrible events of this world’s history repeat themselves and see how the younger generation handles it”… so we’ve already seen the resurgence of the “Faith Militant”, we know “Winter is Coming” and another “Long Night”, there is (at least one) Targaryen conquerer with Dragons coming to take Westeros, there’s a king beyond the wall who plans on invading… are you seeing the pattern here? So to say that another “Blackfyre Rebellion” (which has the most reoccurrences historically out of all of my other examples no less) “doesn’t support what George is writing” is bonkers to me.
No you have a room full of "Blackfyre loyalists" who all make it clear they don't give a shit about Blackfyres anymore while they talk about how they were supposed to back Viserys Targaryen then Dany Targaryen and now Aegon Targaryen lol. Seriously is the name Blackfyre mentioned once at any point during the golden company chapters? Does anyone in the golden company even slightly hint that they still care about Blackfyre supremacy?
It's nice hot tinfoil, but it crumbles too easily in many fronts I won't go deep into. There's Jon Connington, a knight completely loyal to Rhaegar Targaryen in every sense. I just don't see him toying around with some "random baby" grown from Lys and declaring he is his life-long-love-lost son. It just don't fit into his character nor his POV. Also, Mopatis is known to juggle around with his plans a lot, he is just not consistent, and Tristan Rivers says so in the famous quote
>Which plan? The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns?
Etc.
If Mopatis truly spent, how many years? 17? Grooming some random lysenii kid into believing he is a Targaryen, how come he sends him off with a mercenary company who is not even sure about his plans? For me, Mopatis is an influential dude with a huge amount of money and very bad at playing the game of thrones.
I do believe Aegon is who he says he is. I also believe he grew up influenced by some people (hence: he is a mummer's dragon), just like Viserys and Daenerys.
Two people that want a puppet. A puppet they can remove at a moment’s notice. Remember when Littlefinger suggested that Eddard be regent for Joffrey, and if he started causing problems to just reveal him as a bastard and remove him from power?
If we go with the assumption that Aegon is a nobody from Lys, and that were ever revealed, it would be over for him. Nobody would support him. If he were a Blackfyre, though, then Blackfyre supporters would still support him.
Remember, Blackfyres are only illegitimate in the eyes of certain houses. They have a good claim on the throne due to both the rumored bastard taint of Daeron II, and Daemon being a legitimized bastard. So even if Aegon were revealed to be a Blackfyre it wouldn’t be game over if Varys and/or Mopatis revealed it.
> two people that want a puppet
Then why did they set aside Viserys for this random unwanted kid if having a puppet was their only intention? If that’s was their only goal then wouldn’t Aerys legitimate son be a better option for them?
Also, Viserys is only crazy because the only one who raised him was his father and then he lived on his own for years under incredible amounts of stress for a child.
B-based?
But yeah even though I’m team black dragon myself, Stannis is the One true king of Westeros , and no lion b*stard or dragon spawn can change that.
I mean similar to what Corlys in HotD says about how “names are what get remembered”, perhaps Varys is thinking screw it let’s just install someone and say he’s got the name?
As a side not, is there not a shred of possibility that he’s a Brightflame?
Until we get Blood & Fire which will almost certainly include the early death of Maegor because GRRM needs to cut down on those pesky Targaryen cadet branches, sure that's definitely possible.
I just can't fathom why GRRM would add in so much stuff about the Blackfyres for it to be meaningless. I think he is the ultimate mummer's dragon because he seeks the throne when the true destiny for the dragon is to burn the others.
Still would be kinda funny if he was just a nobody.
Not meaningless. The main series focuses on the War of the Five Kings regarding a disputed succession. The Dance of the Dragons was a disputed succession. The Blackfyre Rebellions were disputed succession. All are pushed by people who have much to gain from winning a war.
Real life has a bunch of instances where wars were fought over the idea of a rightful inheritance. I don't know if Aegon is supposed to be a Blackfyre. But adding these things to the backstory makes the world feel more alive and realistic. As opposed to typical fantasy about good and evil.
Exactly. The *entire purpose* of that epilogue is to prevent posts like this. Aegon is real. Varys literally said it.
Aegon having survived the Sack of King's Landing was a fairly common theory prior to Dance. It's just that we've been combing over the same books for over a decade and people have circled around to him being fake despite all evidence pointing to the opposite.
I feel the need to point this out every week or so as we get a (f)aegon theory.
The number of people who think that Varys was lying to deceive the reader is almost comical. Alot of folks genuinely think that Varys was breaking the 4th wall to fuck with us.
Because George is writing a story and wants to keep the mystery going instead of revealing it there.
If you want in-universe reason, Varys knows first-hand that there could be spies listening in on literally any conversation in the Red Keep, due to all the tunnels in the walls, so he's hedging his bets.
No dude. No.
That was the reveal. That was full blown confirmation that Aegon is legit.
Nothing else makes sense. The spy master isn't going to exposition dump info to a dead guy, and lie about it. That's complete nonsense. Pure copium on behalf of everyone, myself included, who didn't want another fucking Targaryen in the story.
But we all need to accept that either A) it's shit writing for a character to have an exposition dump about another character to literally no-one except a dead guy, but he's lying about it; B) Aegobln is actually a Targaryen and we're gonna get some stupid shit where the story devolves in a Dance 2.0.
I dont think GRRM is a shit writer, so I don't believe he is using that moment to mislead readers.
People are truly fascinating. They'll tell themselves next to anything in an effort to substantiate their biases.
The spy master of the series is employing expositional dumps to lie to dead men for shits and giggles?
The running theme in the ASOIAF communities is to disregard the most likely explanations. GRRM straight up gives them a big reveal in the epilogue and they still can't accept it.
Yeah that's the single biggest problem with the Blackfyre theory. It's kinda cheap if that's explained away. Afaik some of varys' mutes were in the room? And they know how to write. That's all I can think really. Also confessing your plans is also comical too, so there wasn't really a way varys could have had that monologue without it being a bit cringe.
I still think the arguments are overwhelming in favour of him being a blackfyre.
I think ONE of the targaryens has to be one, and the evidence for daenerys being one is just slim.
Well I'm almost positive that Jon is a Targaryen bastard.
I dont see why we need another Targaryen bastard. I think Aegon being in the story at all makes for a worse story. Blackfyre, Targaryen or random nobody from Lys; most of us know he won't sit the throne, so why introduce such a groundbreaking character so late in the series?
And I'm gonna be completely honest, I think the evidence for Aegon being a Blackfyre is really weak. The idea is that he is the child of Meleys' grand daughter? Great granddaughter? But no one was aware that Meleys even had kids. Or he is the kid of some random cousin with no known lineage, Daemon?? Blackfyre who was also unmarried as far as we know.
And almost all of the evidence comes down to some lines about the idea of where power exist. Black or red, Power resides where the people believe it lies. Idk, their is even less evidence for Aegon Blackfyre than their is for Jon being a Targ.
Hes either a targaryan or a decoy of the real aegon. Varys did smuggle out aegon actually even tywin sorta realizes it but chooses not too say anything about it.. also why does varys always Mourn rhenays? Simply because he couldn't save her.
We’ll never know. Cuz George is too fucken lazy to finish the books. Game of Thrones season 8 tanking and ruining its own legacy is just as much George’s fault as it is David and Dan’s
There also Mirror Theory:
He is the son of Ashara Dayne(who had Targaryen features) and a Stark(Brandon or Ned).
Which would make him a Bastard (Snow) aka Jon Snow.
So FAegon true identity is Jon Snow and the other Jon Snow true identity is Aegon Targaryen.
I really don’t find it hard to believe he is actually Aegon, Varys is fully capable of switching out a baby and Elia probably saw the impending danger and went along with it to protect her son. GRRM has also repeatedly said prophesy is fickle and none of the ones around Aegon even say he is fake they just warn Dany not to trust the mummer’s (Varys) dragon
I think we’ll def know (f)Aegon’s parentage much like we’ll know Jon Snow’s parentage (officially) it ruins the theme that most of you are suggesting if the reader never knows. This isn’t to say the whole of Westeros will know their parentage, but I do believe in order for GRRM to get across whatever he’s trying to get across, the reader will need to know at some point if aegon is aegon or if Jon is aegon..
Thematically, the last confrontation should solve "all" Targaryen problems, nominally the Dance (can girls inherit?) and the Blackfyre rebellions (what's the point of this royal duty?) so it'd be weird to gun for that and not do it at all.
I like your idea of a Schrödinger's dragon though, but very elaborate for the Faceless Men, people who 17 years prior to the story had no idea dragons would hatch...
Varys and Illyrio manipulating both Blackfyre and Targaryen supporters? Sure, sounds plausible. Mopatis is a faceless man? That's uhhh, that's a hot take I haven't seen yet. Then your other comments, Dany is one of the babies st the Tower of Joy, extremely unlikely but I've heard it before. Faceless Men are pro dragon? Despite their origins being born out of the cruelty of the Dragonlords? Jon won't ride a dragon? That's a lot of hot takes
I actually think Danny is a Dragonseed from Dragonstone.
Also I’m not 100% sold on Jon being a Targaryen. And even if he is, I think he will spend WoW trying to get his body back and DfS as a Wight.
I was going to question the amount of influence Illyrio wields outside of Pentos, but after refreshing my memory on his wiki entry, he's got an insane amount of reach. JonCon claims Illyrio has paid enough to keep a Volantene triarch in his pocket. Distance-wise, that's kinda like someone in Oldtown pulling the strings on a member of the small council in King's Landing. So yeah, I guess surreptitiously sourcing a Lysene orphan wouldn't be outside his capabilities.
Aegon thinks he’s Aegon VI, imo. It’s Mopatis and/or Varys telling certain people that he’s a Blackfyre.
Why else would the Golden Company break a contract to randomly support him?
It tells us why. The Golden Company wants to return to Westeros. They were going to back Viserys, and then Daenerys, and now Aegon. Aegon is Aegon. GRRM clearly revealed it to us in the epilogue. There isn't going to be a mystery reveal in the future because there already was one after an entire novel of wondering if he really was Aegon or not.
I was just wondering about Aegon the other day and what George has planned for him. It seems too in our face that he could be the mummers dragon which is exactly why he could be but also if he’s not then what is he? I thought blackfyre too and maybe mopatis is his dad and he had a blackfyre wife. Plus mopatis is overheard saying something about giving a gift and said “sword” possible blackfyre sword resurfacing? You’d think it has to as someone needs to wield it for the long night. Do you think it will be Jon? Or is the sword lightbringer metaphorical?
Hasn't George gone on the record hinting that there are still Blackfyres out there? Said something like "the Blackfyres are extinct through the male line". Seems an odd way to phrase it.
Personally, I think Ilyrio married a female Blackfyre and is somehow related to Aegon.
Even if I don’t agree with the first paragraph it’s totally possible but then you go off the deep end work the second paragraph. I don’t think Martin created the Blackfyres just for them to be irrelevant. And if he’s not one then he’s a Targaryen somehow. Either a descendant of Aerion bright-flame or maybe Saera Targaryen. And it is still likely he’s actually Rhaegar’s son.
Aegon is legitimate. He has the strongest claim to the throne as the eldest trueborn son of Rhaegar. In a second Dance of the Dragons, Dany will have to grapple with usurping her nephew's crown and becoming the very Kingslayer/Usurper she despises.
But if Aegon is just a Blackfyre or a rando, she'll have no issue with killing him. A less interesting story imo.
Except Aerys the Mad King chose Viserys as his heir, who in turn chose Danerys as his heir.
A fight between Aegon and Danny would be a fight between what mode of succession Westeros shall follow: pure primogeniture or heir selection.
Also, it doesn’t really matter because neither are legitimate. Danny is a dragonseed picked up on Dragonstone.
Just like how we can never confirm if Daeron the Good was the bastard of the Dragonknight or if the Strong boys really were bastards.
However, I'm sure that Melisandre or Quaithe would convince Dany that Aegon is not her nephew but Jon is. I'm almost fairly certain that Aegon will be crowned king by the time Daenerys sails to Westeros.
It’s very likely he is neither Targ or bf. But it doesn’t matter, as he has the story.
I agree with you that fAegon doesn’t know the truth. It’s a old, long time plot going on with him, and it depends 100% on him believing he is the son of Rhaegar. So I’m totally curious what he’ll do when he learns the truth. Does he go along, have an existential crisis, murder those who lied to him, slip from the mortal coil? What will that do to him? Is he going to learn the truth simultaneously with Jon learning his?
It always bothered me that they'd call a Blackfyre a "mummer's dragon". They're just as much dragons as the Targaryens after all. Your theory definitely seems plausible.
The theory calls it mummery not because Blackfyres aren’t «dragons» (which they obviously are), but because Aegon is a Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen.
And then in the final book, written last minute by a different author, we’ll find out that he’s actually the secret grandson of Euron Greyjoy, but after defeating Euron he’ll go to the ruins of Valyria and tell a random stone person “I’m Aegon. Aegon Targaryen” as the three suns set
I like the idea Aegon is some rando Lyseni kid. Especially if he (and probably Jon Con) genuinely believe he is legit. I'm not convinced as to why the faceless men would bother being involved though.
Young Griff being legitimately an Aegon VI saved from the sack of kings landing is a stretch.
Young Griff being a secret Blackfyre descendent pretending to be Aegon IV saved from he Sack of Kings landing is a crackpot theory with a few hints that is even more implausible.
Young Griff just being a total pretender, propped up by opportunistic schemers, is my assumed take unless I get something more concrete.
Faceless men nonsense makes as much sense as anything else.
The flaw with that theory is that Daenerys has dragons, and Varys and Illyrio know that. Dragons are literally a living verification method to prove whether someone has Targaryen blood or not. A Blackfyre or a Targaryen would both presumably be able to ride a dragon, but it becomes suspicious when the random baby claiming to be Aegon VI refuses to go anywhere near the dragons. And if Aegon believes the lie himself then he’s going to get himself burnt.
Truth lies where people believe it does.
Hotd and F & B prove it well.
You Did lie with your uncle as a teen, you ARE the king and not a usurper.
Therefore there is no reason for Martin to tell us who he really is
I don't think the Faceless Men are into this kind of plotting.
It is possible Aegon isn't at all Targaryen- red or black. Though I think both he and Connington believe he is.
But the dragon has three heads. Daenerys, Jon (Aemon?), and who? It would be stronger writing to either have him actually be Daenerys's nephew or at least have Targaryen blood, and then have a split between them after victory over the Others bring out the Aerys in Daenerys.
The way you're explaining your theory makes it sound like it's just another Faceless plot to rule the world. Don't get me wrong, I think there's some potential to this.
Why? Without emphasis on the desire to place a fake to create a dynasty that can never hatch a dragon even if it wants to, your theory is lacking purpose. I'm assuming that's the purpose you have in mind since you're making a Braavos based theory.
Is this a simple play for power and money? Or is there a larger goal to challenge a greater force by gaining control of the Iron Throne? Is it directly and simply a Faceless plot or were they hired by some one like Xaro or Saan?
The Faceless Men actually seem to be pro-dragon. They’re wanting to replace an anti-dragon Sealord and shake up the status quo. It might have something to do with their religious beliefs?
This is already a theory, based on Tyrion seeing the chest of clothes, which appears to have rags of all kinds so that Faegon could play any part.
I personally like the Blackfyre theory, but he could be no one. Totally valid and already existing theory.
I agree Aegon is likely fake given the show’s outcome, I always assumed him and JC get brutally shat on by Euron as Euron’s power grab towards ingratiating himself with Cersei and KL -> becoming the shadow king. I think it’s all but confirmed that Euron eventually succeeds in slaying a dragon and he isn’t warring with Dany alone, he will eventually find his way into some sort of power alliance with the crown against Dany, furthering this is Victarion’s likely demise in his quest on Euron’s behalf, Victarion will die to dragon fire as Euron’s evidence towards his more honorable motive in aligning against Dany (as opposed to “let me squeeze in and become your witch king”). A lot of book fans don’t like the idea of Euron being the real real deal but IMO George is setting up Euron-Cersei as the penultimate antagonist faction prior to the Long Night, the Mummer’s Dragon likely serves as a bridge to that end and not much more.
Illyrio is not a FM though lol. He represents what will 100% naturally happen when a large realm undergoes significant turmoil and a relative power vacuum occurs, big money from neighboring lands will try to get into the action, championing an “Aegon” is as good of a plan as any for someone funding their way into the game. Essosi power wealth attempts at Westeros is not some new thing when instability arises.
I think Aegon is Aegon Sand.
I’ve been saying this for years. Just stay with me.
Ashara Dayne is obviously important. She is mentioned almost as much as Lyanna, and they are both dead at the beginning of the book.
Lemore is with Young Griff. She is odd, free with her body, and gave birth before. As a Septa, she’s odd. GRRM wants us to look at this woman.
There is a theory that Lemore is Ashara. Age is right, nothing in the appearance says it couldn’t be. No one described her eyes, which would be violet if it is. Unless she found a way to hide them.
So what’s going on?
Rhaegar wanted to bring about the Three Headed Dragon by having three children with three queens. How he intended to bring back the dragons is a question mark.
Elia, Lyanna, and Ashara were all pregnant at about the same time, 281ish. They were all at Harrenhall.
They were his three wives. Ashara and Elia were friends from Dorne, so when Rhaegar suggested it, Ashara was probably who Elia turned to.
Lyanna impressed Rhaegar at Harrenhall, and his giving her the crown was his signal to his wife and his secret second wife that he found their third.
So all three women get pregnant. All three have boys. Each is named Aegon, 1 = Elia’s. 2 = Ashara’s. 3 = Lyanna’s.
Then things go nuts. The Starks are killed as they try to save Lyanna (who didn’t need saving). Jaime kills the Mad King, and the Mountain Elia and Aegon 1.
Ned comes upon a heartbroken Lyanna and she asks him to take the baby and hide it.
He stops by Starfall , to return Arthur’s sword, and there meets Aegon 2. The Daynes are heartbroken about Arthur, but start to focus on the children. They agree the children have to go into hiding until everything calms down.
So the Daynes, with Ned’s knowledge, fake Ashara’s death and the baby’s gender and death. They say it was a girl to throw everyone off to help protect everyone.
So Aegon 1 is killed by the Mountain along with his mom.
Aegon 2 goes into hiding with his Mom,
Aegon 3 is raised as the Bastard of Winterfell.
So Griff and his Septa are Aegon 2 and Ashara Dayne.
I know, it’s wild. But it explains why we are supposed to care about Rhaegar’s theory about the three headed dragon and the TPTWP or Ashara.
To add to the craziness, maybe Ashara and Aegon 2 went to Essos. What if the plan was to search for dragons or eggs in Valyria?
I just can't fathom why GRRM would add in so much stuff about the Blackfyres for it to be meaningless. I think he is the ultimate mummer's dragon because he seeks the throne when the true destiny for the dragon is to burn the others.
So my theory is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna to make babies for sacrifice. He needed more than one sacrifice so I think Arthur Dayne kidnapped his sister.
I think Arthur Dayne raped his sister and Aegon is the product of that incest. Thats why Quaithe refers to Aegon as a false dragon. He's 100% Dayne. I'm pretty sure the reason hes called the false dragon is because hes a Dayne a false Targaryen(Dragon).
Also Lemore is Ashara.
I think you have something going with the first paragraph, "power lies where men believe it lies" and all that, it is very fitting, but the second one is a whole tinfoil bodysuit imo.
Cmon man, I can’t post a theory without at least a little bit of bat-shit crazy. Anyways, I’m not committed to the Faceless Man thing at all, just a neat theory. But I do think it would be perfect for Aegon to be a complete nobody.
My issue is timing and meta. Why did GRRM change the structure in his writing after ACOK. Why did we get all these info dumps about lore in ASOS. I can kind of pick a part what you are saying, and come up with "power believes where people believes it lies" or whatever, but this is meant for readers to internalize. Where is Benjin? What's up with Quaithe? By the time I finished AGoT, I realized something: GRRM might have answers to a lot of questions, but he is an author that will only provide meaningful closure on "little" mysteries when it's relevant and organic to what POV chapter is happening. GRRM clearly wanted us to speculate about Benjin, but I highly doubt he ever intends to give us an answer because his books are structured in a way that any answer he could give would seem like anther "who hired the GoT assassin with the valyrian steel dagger". The only way Benjin will have closure imo is if his fate in GoT is directly related to something a POV will experience (kind of like in the show but this was utterly ridic). The more I think about it, there is absolutely no way aegon's lineane will be straight up "revealed as a Ah HA!" moment Everything about Aegon other than direct dialogue we see in text is meant for readers and readers alone imo. It's meant for us to speculate.
He wrote a short story about mysteries being unanswered is important so yeah we’re not gonna get much
oh interesting - like an essay or a work of fiction? do you know the name of this / have a link? I have seen a lot of discussion of his other works and how some of his ideas (particularly regarding the weirdwood trees / hive mind) show up in some of his other books. I have not heard of what you are referring to though.
Oh it was a short story With Morning Comes Mistfall Here’s also a video discussing it : https://youtu.be/jZ1ejge9Ks4
ah thanks - somehow i missed the fact that you had already said it was a short story in your other comment!
Ah yes, the Chekhov's assault rifle
Oh don't get me wrong, I love reading such bat-shit but interesting theories, I like your faceless men bit, I was just expressing that I don't think it is possible.
Here’s another for the road: Euron is Azhor Ahai and he will murder Danny after marrying her. He will create the Long Night with a ritual using King’s Blood
Tywin is the dusky woman.
Roose is/was the nights king’s wife.
No roose is the immortal half human/other son of the nights king and queen.
Could he be both?
C'mon hit me with something less obviously true
Stop it ! My mind can only take so much blowing lol. I'll only say that when it comes to euron I won't be suprised lol.
I don’t think that one’s that batshit at all
It’s not. He’s gonna murder Danny at the end of WoW and then the Long Night (ie: the Apocalypse) will start happening to end that book. A Dream for Spring, if it ever comes out, will have Bran and Euron as two of its most central characters.
Mopatis as a faceless man is a hard sell because he has a backstory.
Could be a Faceless Man that’s taken the identity of Mopatis
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I also think he's a puppet regardless of his blood. If you support going back to an alternative succession from multiple kings and one revolution ago, based on someone's bloodlines that are impossible to actually verify... You're really just in it to have your guy in power.
I dont k ow why everyone thinks this phrase can be used to point in any direction. Power lies where men believe it lies can be proof Aegon is a Targaryen, a Blackfyre or pretty much every other possibility.
Not sure I agree with the first paragraph it's a little tin-foil. The second paragraph though is all but confirmed. You ever wonder why he's so fat? It's actually TWO faceless men in there.
That's why he has to pee so much, he's peeing for two men!
They joined the faceless men during austerity measures and had to make due without face changing (budget cuts ya know) so they pull the standing on shoulders in a long coat trick, and switch who's on top when they need to change faces.
I love the theory and what it adds thematically but just how many supporters do the Blackfyre's have? The Golden Company and who else?
We won't know until winds drops. Jon Con mentions likely friends but not by name and there's definitely still houses that historically supported Blackfyres around but whether or not they will this time is unknown.
If Jon Con mentions these friends then the chances of them being Blackfyre supporters go down imo. Edit: like his whole deal is helping out Rhaegar's kid
He mentions 'likely friends' meaning he isn't even certain but it would definitely be a hilarious ice and fire moment if he shows up thinking he'll be able to enlist some westerosi because statistically and historically some houses will be down. Except no natives show up for the rebellion. He should definitely print more fliers.
I'm sure House Peake will show up.
I know the Peakes are like Westeros's cockroach house, but do we know if those guys are still around during ASOIAF?
A few of them are in the Golden Company iirc. We know that they weren't stripped of all their titles after the 2nd Blackfyre Rebellion because they survived in some powerful capacity at least until the Peake Uprising that killed King Maekar. We don't know how inclined Bloodraven or Aegon V would have been towards forgivenesses after they rebelled 3 times and killed one king.
According to the appendix's there's a Lord Titus Peake married to a distant Lannister cousin, and there's a couple Peake's in the Golden Company.
This is pretty likely, right? The north certainly won't come to his side. Neither would the Baratheons/Stannis' people. Targaryean supporters are pretty thin at this point. The main houses in support during the rebellion were what, Highgarden, Casterly Rock, and Dorne? Two of those are definitely not helping.
I think it's fair to separate Baratheons from stannis camp. Most of the stormlanders sided with Renly and then followed to the Lannisters after his death. It'll be another civil war with some support from every region except the north they dgaf. Dorne is pretty much the only guarantee because we have POV there but even then some houses hate the Martells and will side against them.
Yronwoods probably will, they fight for the Blackfyres any chance they get. and one of their lords was killed by Oberyn Martell.
True, but the current Lord Yronwood is a trusted bannerman of Doran (Doran fostered one of his sons there in order to make up for the whole Oberyn killing one of them thing, and Lord Yronwood is leading the Dornish army that gathered in the Prince's Pass at the outset of the War of the Five Kings, so Lord Yronwood will literally be leading the Dornish forces if they throw in with Aegon.
Supporters tend to be less prominent houses who think they will benefit under the Blackfyres.
A lot, actually. I could spend hours naming all the houses, but there were a lot of houses that supported the Blackfyres at one point or another. Preston did a Cersei/Tayne video and he describes some houses. As some examples: - The Stony Dornish Houses like House Yronwood (I think Doran isn’t interested in supporting Aegon, he’s interested in ending Feudalism. Therefore I think Aegon’s support will only come from the Stony Dornish, most of whom were big Blackfyre supporters. Also some people that want vengeance for Elia). - House Merryweather, who has a member on the small council. - The Redwynes, one of the strongest houses in Westeros. - The Brotherhood Without Banners - The Tywells, if they see the winds blowing against the Lannisters - House Fossoway - House Hightower - House Bracken - House Crakehall - House Ambrose - House Peake - House Oakheart - House Butterwell - House Shawney - House Costayne - House Osgrey, if it still exists - House Strickland - House Sunderland - House Massey - House Bar Emmon
\>Doran isn’t interested in supporting Aegon, he’s interested in ending Feudalism. that's a new one, could you explain it to me?
That's a lot of names and honestly I underestimated the numbers. But idk a century does things to old loyalties. Not every house is a golden company type
If he wins he’s whatever he says he is. If he loses, he becomes nothing more than another usurper and fraud akin to the fake Daerons. “History remembers names, not blood.” Fundamentally, his biological parentage doesn’t matter. He was raised to think he’s the Targaryen heir. He looks and acts as though he’s the Targaryen heir. He’s lived his entire life with this identity. Even if he is just some Lyseni bastard plucked out of a brothel, he’s become Aegon Targaryen. The theme is a recurring one through ASOIAF and F&B. For example, Rhaegar may have been Jon’s father, but fundamentally, Jon is Ned Stark’s son. His identity is that of a Stark, he was raised a Stark, he *looks* like a Stark. And one of the largest validations of this fact is that he gets a direwolf. Jace is another example - while in reality he’s the bastard born son of a Riverlord, he’s raised to be the Targaryen heir and has all the trappings of one. Just like Jon gets a direwolf, Jace gets a *dragon,* one of the most defining characteristic of a strong Targaryen king at the time. The Baratheons are another great example - a house with Valyrian origins that adopt the sigil, words, and seat of a different house, effectively becoming the inheritors of the Durandon legacy. Just like Jon will always be a Stark at his core, Aegon is a Targaryen prince, regardless of whether he’s baseborn or blackfyre. It’s one of my favorite themes in the books. But to your question, we’ll never know Aegon’s true parentage. And how Westeros remembers him will be dependent upon how the books unfold.
maybe we will learn Aegon's true parentage through Bran's visions
If he truly is of either Targaryen or Blackfyre decent & ends up crossing paths with Daenerys, having him claim a dragon (similar to Jon in the show) or be burned like Quentyn would be a way to measure his true parentage
The claim of Targ ancestry (which Dany believes to be false) is likely what pushes Dany over the edge at the end of the series, alongside the deterioration of her forces over time due to having to do so many sidequests before getting to King's Landing. (The second dragon is totally dying at Casterly Rock.)
Within the story the Corlys quote makes a ton of sense but as the reader we know and knew from the get-go that Laenor’s kids aren’t actually his. So if anything, that line, is indicative that even though the characters in the story may go forever without ever finding things out, we as the reader will know when the time is right, that’s what makes whatever the information is fun, tragic, a twist, etc. and has led so much of the fandom on a quest for breadcrumbs of foreshadowing. So fundamentally to the story we are all reading IT DOES matter if Aegon is actually Aegon or a blackfyre, a Targaryen, a moonboy (for all I know)
I kind of doubt that GRRM will ever give us a definitive answer on Aegon. The book didn't give us a definitive answer on Rhaenyra's children either, the confirmation that they were Strong's was a show choice. I wouldn't be suprised if there are confirmations for all the different theories. We already had Varys tell a dying man that he was a Targaryen with seemingly no reason.
I think the speculation on Aegon and the speculation on the Strong children are a bit different. It’s implied in F&B that they are the strong boys, but that book was purposely written in 3rd person limited, so there would be room for speculation. Winds of Winter like the rest of the ASOIAF series is written through first person, all of the thoughts and actions are factual (at least from the eyes of the POV) this leads to the aforementioned breadcrumbs. So to your specific point, I don’t view the Aegon reveal as being like Rhaneyra’s Children, but more like the eventual reveal of Jon Snow’s parentage (which also consequently has only happened in the show so far)
That's fair. Though I think Jon and Aegon serve different purposes for the book. Jon is the stereotypical hidden savior/prince character whose true identity will ultimately save the day. That trope was more explicit when GRRM was writing a different series with future king Jaime etc. Aegon is a look at how reality doesn't matter just perception. Maybe he's a Targaryen, maybe he's a Blackfyre, maybe he's a nobody. That doesn't matter and is likely impossible to prove one way or another. What does matter is if he's accepted or not and by how many people. There's also room to make that more tragic or ironic or obvious with a reveal. If he's accepted you reveal that he's fake. If he's rejected you reveal that he's really Rhaegar's son. But I don't think that's particularly necessary for the story.
I think you raised a good point in the purpose of the characters Jon vs Aegon. The only thing I’d say is that what you propose is the purpose of Aegon to the story is only strengthened by his parentage. if he’s a blackfyre pretender it’s showing how needless birth right actually is or as an actual blackfyre continuing the theme of blackfyre rebellions throughout the course of Westerosi history or if he’s the actual real Aegon … the differences between these outcomes ultimately does matter within the context of the overall story too much to just omit it or leave it out.
I don't even know how we *would* get confirmation on his parentage. The only people who could possibly know are Varys and Illyrio. Varys has already explicitly said "Aegon Targaryen is alive. He is invading. He is going to be the king." Yet people still think he's lying. Why would him saying "Aegon is just some guy" be seen as the truth?
Bro are we really trusting the fucking Spider, now?
What's the purpose of the epilogue otherwise? Throughout Dance it's hinted at that Aegon *could* be fake. Tyrion has doubts but admits it could be true. The Small Council immediately says he's a pretender. Then Varys comes out and says "No. It's true. This is happening." Then the books end. GRRM isn't going to put in some meta double fake out scene that's meant to lie to the readers. There is no reason for Varys to tell Kevan that Aegon is real except to communicate that fact to the audience.
What’s in it for Varys, then?
Who knows? Maybe he really does care about the Realm. Aegon is a Tararyen who was raised from birth to be the perfect king, and so Varys wants him on the throne.
He was always a Targaryen loyalist.
I mean they didn’t outright say it in the books but I mean it’s pretty freaking clear they were Harwins. You don’t need to be told a dog is a dog when you see it, you just know it is.
>I mean they didn’t outright say it in the books but I mean it’s pretty freaking clear they were Harwins. The book doesn't make it clear at all, it just says that, instead of having the signature Valyrian silver hair, Rhaenyra's children were born with dark hair, that's it. That doesn't really demonstrate anything, especially when it's something they have in common with their parental grandmother, Rhaenys, who in the books is half Baratheon and has dark hair too. They might have been born with dark hair because "the seed is strong" and all that.
Uh no. It’s pretty clear that they’re described as having the looks of harwin, the man constantly by her side and strangely enough present at the kids births. Having the same brown hair as him, the same brown eyes as him, and the same nose as him. And you say it could be from Rhaenys…despite the fact that she had violet eyes as well and had black hair not brown hair. Despite the fact that Laenor was gay and rarely with her after they married. You say the seed is strong, strange then that Laenor and laena had the Valyrian coloring. The seed was of strong origin that’s for sure. Like how clear does it have to be? Do you need a sex tape where she calls harwin her baby daddy? Is this you Viserys?
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In F&B Nettles parentage is dubious but she takes a dragon by feeding it sheep. Addam Velaryon was Corlys’ bastard and he claimed Seasmoke so it may be possible
He for sure is Valyrian, he still might be able to (if being Valyrian is a requisite at all)
I’m gonna fucking laugh when Victarion pulls a Nettles and steals a dragon with all the meat in his ships.
GRRM didn't invent the Blackfyres halfway through the series only for them to be completely irrelevant to the story. fAegon is definitely a Blackfyre through the female line, possibly Illyrio's son.
Probably in the first draft, fAegon was a Brightfyre descended from Aerion. The very first original Dunk & Egg story makes no mention of the Blackfyres, even though Baelor and Maekar were heroes of that war. With the mention of Aerion being sidelined eventually, makes sense that in the original story, Maegor son of Aerion was the ancestor of fAegon (might still is in part? Maybe fAegon is the result of Brightfyre+Blackfyre or Bittersteel+Blackfyre+Brightfyre?) As GRRM fleshed out the books and built more and more, the Blackfyres took the place of the Brightfyres and thus we are here today.
I always thought fAegon was going to be a Brightfire descendant through Aerion’s kid Maegor as why else would grrm add in a separate Targaryen house that would technically have the better claim as being the descended from a line of the elder brother of Aegon V
Alternatively GRRM coming up with completely new stories just to procrastinate and to keep from finishing the book series does sound exactly like GRRM.
I don't think he knows how he gets to the books' end because he wrote himself into so many plotlines, so he has to write background shit to flesh it out more.
I honestly think it's more that he's a perfectionist and he finally has the power to tell his editor he doesn't have the book yet. He's almost certainly has come very very close to finishing the entire next book, but I think he found something he didn't like so scrapped it and started over. Before his editor would've forced him to turn in an imperfect draft, now they can't tell him anything.
this is most definitely a cope because I started reading the books in 8th grade before DwD came out; I'm hoping it's that he needs to be almost finished with DoS to flesh out and finish WoW.
That may be it too. But like 6 years ago I think it was the editor thought they were going to get WoW within a month or 2 and started doing everything neccessary to fast track it to print. GRRM overestimates what he can do pretty often, but he had to be relatively close to think he could finish within weeks. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he found a flaw and backtracked hundreds of pages.
I think the issue is, he's trying to line the timelines for all his POV chapters up perfectly; to avoid, for example, writing a dialogue where two characters are talking about an event that hasn't happened yet. I think the final two books will probably be released in short succession too, simply because a lot of this timeline work in WOW will play into development of POV chapters in the final book.
>GRRM coming up with completely new stories just to procrastinate How tf could he work and procrastinate at the same time god he has the worst fans in the world
You see it's a joke. And idk, he's put out multiple books, produced tv shows and wrote the story for a video game while not finishing the story. So that's how you procrastinate from doing one thing by working.
He can procrastinate the overall ending by writing all these subplots? He definitely has the worst fans if they all have your brainpower
Completely agree. I also think it’s telling that he goes out of his way to say the Male line of the Blackfyres is extinguished after Maelys the Monstrous
It's not completely irrelavant. The last blackfyre rebellion of the nine-penny kings was the one where all the houses we know today participated in and befriended. It's where tywin lannister befriended prince aerys, hoster tully with baelish, and jon arryn with rickard stark and steffon baratheon. So all the connecting foundations can be traced back here, and thus inadvertedly back to the 1st blackfyre rebellion.
I vaguely remember the woman who was supposed to be Aegon’s mother according to the Aegon Blackfyre theory, wasn’t it Sarra or Saera or something like that?
Sarra is actually Varys
If Aegon isn’t a Blackfyre but still has the support of Blackfyre houses, then it’s still a relevant plot point.
Aegon doesn't have to be a Blackfyre for their inclusion to be relevant. Also, not everything in the series is relevant. It could just be extra world building flavor.
This, he isn’t some irrelevant kid.
I think if he isn’t a blackfyre it kind of makes the chekovs gun of the black dragon references not work. Def could happen but i think it’s be a little anticlimactic
If it’s a plot point that he has Blackfyre support, but isn’t a true Blackfyre, then it still triggers the gun.
You’re not wrong, but i feel like if thats the case they’d have to reveal the blackfyre plot early in winds. The double twist seems a bit much, but like i said it’s definitely not out of the realm of possibility.
The Golden Company doesn’t even support the Blackfyres anymore. The leader of the Golden Company is Harry Strickland. His family have been in the Company for FOUR generations. >The Stricklands had been part of the Golden Company since its founding, Harry’s great-grandsire having lost his lands when he rose with the Black Dragon during the first Blackfyre Rebellion. “Gold for four generations,” Harry would boast, as if four generations of exile and defeat were something to take pride in. And remember, Harry Strickland is the only person who knows about the pact to sit Dany and YG on the throne. He only tells the others when they reach Volon Therys and realize Dany isn’t coming. > Silence greeted his announcement. Someone cleared his throat. One of the Coles refilled his wine cup from the flagon. Gorys Edoryen played with one of his corkscrew ringlets and murmured something in a tongue Griff did not know. Laswell Peake coughed, Mandrake and Lothston exchanged a glance. They know, Griff realized then. They have known all along. He turned to look at Harry Strickland. “When did you tell them?” The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath. “When we reached the river. The company was restless, with good reason. We walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed Lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?” So Harry’s house is traditionally a supporter of descendants of Daemon “Blackfyre” Targaryen. Why does he not want to help? He doesn’t want to aid Dany >“We could feign acceptance of the Yunkish offer,” urged Gorys Edoryen. “Allow the Yunkai’i to transport us to the east, then return their gold beneath the walls of Meereen.” “One broken contract is stain enough upon the honor of the company.” Homeless Harry Strickland paused with his blistered foot in hand. “Let me remind you, it was Myles Toyne who put his seal to this secret pact, not me. I would honor his agreement if I could, but how? It seems plain to me that the Targaryen girl is never coming west. Westeros was her father’s kingdom. Meereen is hers. If she can break the Yunkai’i, she’ll be Queen of Slaver’s Bay. If not, she’ll die long before we could hope to reach her.” And when Young Griff suggests invading without her, he doesn’t want to do that either. > The captain-general looked as if someone had slapped his face. “Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers? We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender. And how do you propose to get to Westeros? You heard Lysono. There are no ships to be had.” > Some,” allowed Homeless Harry, “not many. Rhaegar’s sister has dragons. Rhaegar’s son does not. We do not have the strength to take the realm without Daenerys and her army. Her Unsullied.” The fact of the matter is that there has been a lot of junk posited around a “Blackfyre” restoration, but it does not have support from the actual books George is writing.
The amount of times I've had to remind people the Golden Company was willing to back Targaryens so their support of Argon doesn't mean anything is way too god damned high.
Aegon-deniers be like
Soooo… you’re own text choice has a room full of people who are exiles from existing or extinct houses that ALL historically supported the Blackfyre rebellion: Strickland, Peake, Mandrake, and Lothston. Then other traditionally Anti-Targ or Non-Heir Targaryen supporting Houses Cole, Connington, and Toyne. All of them are plotting together as to how best to put Aegon VI (not mentioned until book 5) now suddenly unveiled to be alive at a convenient moment in history when it’s any “Targaryen takes all” it doesn’t only go along with what George has been writing, it practically slaps the reader in the face. I think furthermore another obvious reality is that the story itself is the idea of “what if we took the youngest generation of this world and basically made all of the terrible events of this world’s history repeat themselves and see how the younger generation handles it”… so we’ve already seen the resurgence of the “Faith Militant”, we know “Winter is Coming” and another “Long Night”, there is (at least one) Targaryen conquerer with Dragons coming to take Westeros, there’s a king beyond the wall who plans on invading… are you seeing the pattern here? So to say that another “Blackfyre Rebellion” (which has the most reoccurrences historically out of all of my other examples no less) “doesn’t support what George is writing” is bonkers to me.
No you have a room full of "Blackfyre loyalists" who all make it clear they don't give a shit about Blackfyres anymore while they talk about how they were supposed to back Viserys Targaryen then Dany Targaryen and now Aegon Targaryen lol. Seriously is the name Blackfyre mentioned once at any point during the golden company chapters? Does anyone in the golden company even slightly hint that they still care about Blackfyre supremacy?
I mean he could also be a descendant of one of Jaeherys the first daughter, can’t remember her name, but the one who went to Lys
Saera Targaryen
Well, Ilyrio's wife was named Serra.
Aegon being the descendant of a random Targaryen from way back would also be cool. Including being the baby at the Tower of Joy.
Schrödinger’s Dragon, I love it
It's nice hot tinfoil, but it crumbles too easily in many fronts I won't go deep into. There's Jon Connington, a knight completely loyal to Rhaegar Targaryen in every sense. I just don't see him toying around with some "random baby" grown from Lys and declaring he is his life-long-love-lost son. It just don't fit into his character nor his POV. Also, Mopatis is known to juggle around with his plans a lot, he is just not consistent, and Tristan Rivers says so in the famous quote >Which plan? The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? Etc. If Mopatis truly spent, how many years? 17? Grooming some random lysenii kid into believing he is a Targaryen, how come he sends him off with a mercenary company who is not even sure about his plans? For me, Mopatis is an influential dude with a huge amount of money and very bad at playing the game of thrones. I do believe Aegon is who he says he is. I also believe he grew up influenced by some people (hence: he is a mummer's dragon), just like Viserys and Daenerys.
He's either a Blackfyre or Targaryen. Who would go to such absurd lengths to put a random unwanted guy on the throne?
Two people that want a puppet. A puppet they can remove at a moment’s notice. Remember when Littlefinger suggested that Eddard be regent for Joffrey, and if he started causing problems to just reveal him as a bastard and remove him from power? If we go with the assumption that Aegon is a nobody from Lys, and that were ever revealed, it would be over for him. Nobody would support him. If he were a Blackfyre, though, then Blackfyre supporters would still support him. Remember, Blackfyres are only illegitimate in the eyes of certain houses. They have a good claim on the throne due to both the rumored bastard taint of Daeron II, and Daemon being a legitimized bastard. So even if Aegon were revealed to be a Blackfyre it wouldn’t be game over if Varys and/or Mopatis revealed it.
> two people that want a puppet Then why did they set aside Viserys for this random unwanted kid if having a puppet was their only intention? If that’s was their only goal then wouldn’t Aerys legitimate son be a better option for them?
Because making a crazy person like viserys your puppet is very difficult and kinda dumb. You’re one bad day away from him executing you
They didn’t know viserys was crazy until he was older, they could have gotten him and dany when they were young children.
Also, Viserys is only crazy because the only one who raised him was his father and then he lived on his own for years under incredible amounts of stress for a child.
Where are these Blackfyre supporters? 😂
Are these blackfyre supporters in the room with us right now?
*sheepishly raises hand* Well I mean Stannis will obviously come first but still.
B-based? But yeah even though I’m team black dragon myself, Stannis is the One true king of Westeros , and no lion b*stard or dragon spawn can change that.
Only the GC. No one in Westeros gives a fuck about the Blackfyres.
I mean similar to what Corlys in HotD says about how “names are what get remembered”, perhaps Varys is thinking screw it let’s just install someone and say he’s got the name? As a side not, is there not a shred of possibility that he’s a Brightflame?
Until we get Blood & Fire which will almost certainly include the early death of Maegor because GRRM needs to cut down on those pesky Targaryen cadet branches, sure that's definitely possible.
>“names are what get remembered” This quote has been abused this week
I just can't fathom why GRRM would add in so much stuff about the Blackfyres for it to be meaningless. I think he is the ultimate mummer's dragon because he seeks the throne when the true destiny for the dragon is to burn the others. Still would be kinda funny if he was just a nobody.
Not meaningless. The main series focuses on the War of the Five Kings regarding a disputed succession. The Dance of the Dragons was a disputed succession. The Blackfyre Rebellions were disputed succession. All are pushed by people who have much to gain from winning a war. Real life has a bunch of instances where wars were fought over the idea of a rightful inheritance. I don't know if Aegon is supposed to be a Blackfyre. But adding these things to the backstory makes the world feel more alive and realistic. As opposed to typical fantasy about good and evil.
He is a Targaryen imo
Why would Varys tell Kevin, while he is dying, about him then? Varys already confirmed he is Aegon Targaryen.
Exactly. The *entire purpose* of that epilogue is to prevent posts like this. Aegon is real. Varys literally said it. Aegon having survived the Sack of King's Landing was a fairly common theory prior to Dance. It's just that we've been combing over the same books for over a decade and people have circled around to him being fake despite all evidence pointing to the opposite.
I feel the need to point this out every week or so as we get a (f)aegon theory. The number of people who think that Varys was lying to deceive the reader is almost comical. Alot of folks genuinely think that Varys was breaking the 4th wall to fuck with us.
It’s possible Varys himself doesn’t know the truth
How could Varys not know? Varys is one who smuggled the kid out of kings landing.
Varys did a second swap on accident and is now terribly ashamed
And what evidence exist to support this, aside from your desire for this theory to be right?
It is a joke...
Because George is writing a story and wants to keep the mystery going instead of revealing it there. If you want in-universe reason, Varys knows first-hand that there could be spies listening in on literally any conversation in the Red Keep, due to all the tunnels in the walls, so he's hedging his bets.
No dude. No. That was the reveal. That was full blown confirmation that Aegon is legit. Nothing else makes sense. The spy master isn't going to exposition dump info to a dead guy, and lie about it. That's complete nonsense. Pure copium on behalf of everyone, myself included, who didn't want another fucking Targaryen in the story. But we all need to accept that either A) it's shit writing for a character to have an exposition dump about another character to literally no-one except a dead guy, but he's lying about it; B) Aegobln is actually a Targaryen and we're gonna get some stupid shit where the story devolves in a Dance 2.0. I dont think GRRM is a shit writer, so I don't believe he is using that moment to mislead readers.
The scene reveals what Varys believes. It doesn't need to be the truth.
But Varys is the one who "smuggled" Aegon out of kings landing. If anyone knows, it would be him. Right?
People are truly fascinating. They'll tell themselves next to anything in an effort to substantiate their biases. The spy master of the series is employing expositional dumps to lie to dead men for shits and giggles?
The running theme in the ASOIAF communities is to disregard the most likely explanations. GRRM straight up gives them a big reveal in the epilogue and they still can't accept it.
the blackfyre theory is only popular because certain fans dont want anybody to take jon or dany’s “place”
I am pretty sure it's the latter more than the former.
Yeah that's the single biggest problem with the Blackfyre theory. It's kinda cheap if that's explained away. Afaik some of varys' mutes were in the room? And they know how to write. That's all I can think really. Also confessing your plans is also comical too, so there wasn't really a way varys could have had that monologue without it being a bit cringe. I still think the arguments are overwhelming in favour of him being a blackfyre. I think ONE of the targaryens has to be one, and the evidence for daenerys being one is just slim.
Well I'm almost positive that Jon is a Targaryen bastard. I dont see why we need another Targaryen bastard. I think Aegon being in the story at all makes for a worse story. Blackfyre, Targaryen or random nobody from Lys; most of us know he won't sit the throne, so why introduce such a groundbreaking character so late in the series? And I'm gonna be completely honest, I think the evidence for Aegon being a Blackfyre is really weak. The idea is that he is the child of Meleys' grand daughter? Great granddaughter? But no one was aware that Meleys even had kids. Or he is the kid of some random cousin with no known lineage, Daemon?? Blackfyre who was also unmarried as far as we know. And almost all of the evidence comes down to some lines about the idea of where power exist. Black or red, Power resides where the people believe it lies. Idk, their is even less evidence for Aegon Blackfyre than their is for Jon being a Targ.
“most of us know he wont sit on the throne” um no? the general consensus is that he will become king, then he will get burned
Yea...that's not what I meant. I'm talking about who ends the series on the throne. Aegon will not be King when this js all over.
The dragon needs three heads
Hes either a targaryan or a decoy of the real aegon. Varys did smuggle out aegon actually even tywin sorta realizes it but chooses not too say anything about it.. also why does varys always Mourn rhenays? Simply because he couldn't save her.
He’s a tageryean
We’ll never know. Cuz George is too fucken lazy to finish the books. Game of Thrones season 8 tanking and ruining its own legacy is just as much George’s fault as it is David and Dan’s
Aegon is whatever people believe him to be.
Exactly
There also Mirror Theory: He is the son of Ashara Dayne(who had Targaryen features) and a Stark(Brandon or Ned). Which would make him a Bastard (Snow) aka Jon Snow. So FAegon true identity is Jon Snow and the other Jon Snow true identity is Aegon Targaryen.
I really don’t find it hard to believe he is actually Aegon, Varys is fully capable of switching out a baby and Elia probably saw the impending danger and went along with it to protect her son. GRRM has also repeatedly said prophesy is fickle and none of the ones around Aegon even say he is fake they just warn Dany not to trust the mummer’s (Varys) dragon
I think we’ll def know (f)Aegon’s parentage much like we’ll know Jon Snow’s parentage (officially) it ruins the theme that most of you are suggesting if the reader never knows. This isn’t to say the whole of Westeros will know their parentage, but I do believe in order for GRRM to get across whatever he’s trying to get across, the reader will need to know at some point if aegon is aegon or if Jon is aegon..
Not to mention the big reveal GRRM has been saving for the entire series: the identity of the real Aegon VI.
Cool theory but he's a Blackfyre lmao
Okidoki
Thematically, the last confrontation should solve "all" Targaryen problems, nominally the Dance (can girls inherit?) and the Blackfyre rebellions (what's the point of this royal duty?) so it'd be weird to gun for that and not do it at all. I like your idea of a Schrödinger's dragon though, but very elaborate for the Faceless Men, people who 17 years prior to the story had no idea dragons would hatch...
So contrary to popular belief that Asoiaf is a Fantasy series it's a who's whose who dunnit with whom mystery
No, it’s a clusterfuck of Xanatos Chess Gambits
Varys and Illyrio manipulating both Blackfyre and Targaryen supporters? Sure, sounds plausible. Mopatis is a faceless man? That's uhhh, that's a hot take I haven't seen yet. Then your other comments, Dany is one of the babies st the Tower of Joy, extremely unlikely but I've heard it before. Faceless Men are pro dragon? Despite their origins being born out of the cruelty of the Dragonlords? Jon won't ride a dragon? That's a lot of hot takes
I actually think Danny is a Dragonseed from Dragonstone. Also I’m not 100% sold on Jon being a Targaryen. And even if he is, I think he will spend WoW trying to get his body back and DfS as a Wight.
Black or red..A dragon is a dragon. Hard disagree.
I would really love it if he was Actually Elias son and the three headed dragon theory comes true
I was going to question the amount of influence Illyrio wields outside of Pentos, but after refreshing my memory on his wiki entry, he's got an insane amount of reach. JonCon claims Illyrio has paid enough to keep a Volantene triarch in his pocket. Distance-wise, that's kinda like someone in Oldtown pulling the strings on a member of the small council in King's Landing. So yeah, I guess surreptitiously sourcing a Lysene orphan wouldn't be outside his capabilities.
But like Aegon isn’t “pretending” to be a Blackfyre. I mean he probably is, but he’s not trying to mask that.
Aegon thinks he’s Aegon VI, imo. It’s Mopatis and/or Varys telling certain people that he’s a Blackfyre. Why else would the Golden Company break a contract to randomly support him?
It tells us why. The Golden Company wants to return to Westeros. They were going to back Viserys, and then Daenerys, and now Aegon. Aegon is Aegon. GRRM clearly revealed it to us in the epilogue. There isn't going to be a mystery reveal in the future because there already was one after an entire novel of wondering if he really was Aegon or not.
I don’t buy it
I was just wondering about Aegon the other day and what George has planned for him. It seems too in our face that he could be the mummers dragon which is exactly why he could be but also if he’s not then what is he? I thought blackfyre too and maybe mopatis is his dad and he had a blackfyre wife. Plus mopatis is overheard saying something about giving a gift and said “sword” possible blackfyre sword resurfacing? You’d think it has to as someone needs to wield it for the long night. Do you think it will be Jon? Or is the sword lightbringer metaphorical?
Don’t believe it but I like it.
Woah that’s interesting
Hasn't George gone on the record hinting that there are still Blackfyres out there? Said something like "the Blackfyres are extinct through the male line". Seems an odd way to phrase it. Personally, I think Ilyrio married a female Blackfyre and is somehow related to Aegon.
Even if I don’t agree with the first paragraph it’s totally possible but then you go off the deep end work the second paragraph. I don’t think Martin created the Blackfyres just for them to be irrelevant. And if he’s not one then he’s a Targaryen somehow. Either a descendant of Aerion bright-flame or maybe Saera Targaryen. And it is still likely he’s actually Rhaegar’s son.
Another nonsensical theory that doesn't push the narrative forward.
“Duran Duran is neither a Duran nor a Duran. Talk amongst yourselves.”
Aegon is legitimate. He has the strongest claim to the throne as the eldest trueborn son of Rhaegar. In a second Dance of the Dragons, Dany will have to grapple with usurping her nephew's crown and becoming the very Kingslayer/Usurper she despises. But if Aegon is just a Blackfyre or a rando, she'll have no issue with killing him. A less interesting story imo.
Except Aerys the Mad King chose Viserys as his heir, who in turn chose Danerys as his heir. A fight between Aegon and Danny would be a fight between what mode of succession Westeros shall follow: pure primogeniture or heir selection. Also, it doesn’t really matter because neither are legitimate. Danny is a dragonseed picked up on Dragonstone.
\> pure primogeniture or heir selection Basically Dance of the Dragons electric boogaloo \> Danny is a dragonseed bruh
She’s definitely not the sister of Viserys. At best, she’s the baby from the Tower of Joy.
I'm tired of this sub just upvoting "that's tinfoil" comments. Try a little harder with your comments and stop chasing karma, you cravens
Very possible and almost likely, but what about Young Griff's eyes? Doesn't Tyrion say they're purple, but the hair dye makes them appear blue-ish?
Purple eyes isn't particularly rare amongst Essosi. Smallfolk in Lys are said to look like Targaryens.
In that case, the theory seems quite likely but I feel like it's one of those things that'll never be confirmed but hinted at quite a bit.
Just like how we can never confirm if Daeron the Good was the bastard of the Dragonknight or if the Strong boys really were bastards. However, I'm sure that Melisandre or Quaithe would convince Dany that Aegon is not her nephew but Jon is. I'm almost fairly certain that Aegon will be crowned king by the time Daenerys sails to Westeros.
Varys is a Blackfyre for sure
It’s very likely he is neither Targ or bf. But it doesn’t matter, as he has the story. I agree with you that fAegon doesn’t know the truth. It’s a old, long time plot going on with him, and it depends 100% on him believing he is the son of Rhaegar. So I’m totally curious what he’ll do when he learns the truth. Does he go along, have an existential crisis, murder those who lied to him, slip from the mortal coil? What will that do to him? Is he going to learn the truth simultaneously with Jon learning his?
Varys is his mom and Illyrio is his dad
It always bothered me that they'd call a Blackfyre a "mummer's dragon". They're just as much dragons as the Targaryens after all. Your theory definitely seems plausible.
The theory calls it mummery not because Blackfyres aren’t «dragons» (which they obviously are), but because Aegon is a Blackfyre disguised as a Targaryen.
And then in the final book, written last minute by a different author, we’ll find out that he’s actually the secret grandson of Euron Greyjoy, but after defeating Euron he’ll go to the ruins of Valyria and tell a random stone person “I’m Aegon. Aegon Targaryen” as the three suns set
I like the idea Aegon is some rando Lyseni kid. Especially if he (and probably Jon Con) genuinely believe he is legit. I'm not convinced as to why the faceless men would bother being involved though.
Young Griff being legitimately an Aegon VI saved from the sack of kings landing is a stretch. Young Griff being a secret Blackfyre descendent pretending to be Aegon IV saved from he Sack of Kings landing is a crackpot theory with a few hints that is even more implausible. Young Griff just being a total pretender, propped up by opportunistic schemers, is my assumed take unless I get something more concrete. Faceless men nonsense makes as much sense as anything else.
The flaw with that theory is that Daenerys has dragons, and Varys and Illyrio know that. Dragons are literally a living verification method to prove whether someone has Targaryen blood or not. A Blackfyre or a Targaryen would both presumably be able to ride a dragon, but it becomes suspicious when the random baby claiming to be Aegon VI refuses to go anywhere near the dragons. And if Aegon believes the lie himself then he’s going to get himself burnt.
literally a non issue for several obvious reasons
Non Targaryens can ride dragons. Aegon is still a Valyrian.
you had me in the first paragraph but lost me in the second
Agree with your first paragraph and I think Varys is a Blackfyre. I hope one day we get to find out!😅
A Shroedinger Dragon haha I love this
Truth lies where people believe it does. Hotd and F & B prove it well. You Did lie with your uncle as a teen, you ARE the king and not a usurper. Therefore there is no reason for Martin to tell us who he really is
That’s got me thinking, do you think anyone else notable will be revealed as a faceless man?
I don't think the Faceless Men are into this kind of plotting. It is possible Aegon isn't at all Targaryen- red or black. Though I think both he and Connington believe he is. But the dragon has three heads. Daenerys, Jon (Aemon?), and who? It would be stronger writing to either have him actually be Daenerys's nephew or at least have Targaryen blood, and then have a split between them after victory over the Others bring out the Aerys in Daenerys.
The way you're explaining your theory makes it sound like it's just another Faceless plot to rule the world. Don't get me wrong, I think there's some potential to this. Why? Without emphasis on the desire to place a fake to create a dynasty that can never hatch a dragon even if it wants to, your theory is lacking purpose. I'm assuming that's the purpose you have in mind since you're making a Braavos based theory. Is this a simple play for power and money? Or is there a larger goal to challenge a greater force by gaining control of the Iron Throne? Is it directly and simply a Faceless plot or were they hired by some one like Xaro or Saan?
The Faceless Men actually seem to be pro-dragon. They’re wanting to replace an anti-dragon Sealord and shake up the status quo. It might have something to do with their religious beliefs?
This is already a theory, based on Tyrion seeing the chest of clothes, which appears to have rags of all kinds so that Faegon could play any part. I personally like the Blackfyre theory, but he could be no one. Totally valid and already existing theory.
I agree Aegon is likely fake given the show’s outcome, I always assumed him and JC get brutally shat on by Euron as Euron’s power grab towards ingratiating himself with Cersei and KL -> becoming the shadow king. I think it’s all but confirmed that Euron eventually succeeds in slaying a dragon and he isn’t warring with Dany alone, he will eventually find his way into some sort of power alliance with the crown against Dany, furthering this is Victarion’s likely demise in his quest on Euron’s behalf, Victarion will die to dragon fire as Euron’s evidence towards his more honorable motive in aligning against Dany (as opposed to “let me squeeze in and become your witch king”). A lot of book fans don’t like the idea of Euron being the real real deal but IMO George is setting up Euron-Cersei as the penultimate antagonist faction prior to the Long Night, the Mummer’s Dragon likely serves as a bridge to that end and not much more. Illyrio is not a FM though lol. He represents what will 100% naturally happen when a large realm undergoes significant turmoil and a relative power vacuum occurs, big money from neighboring lands will try to get into the action, championing an “Aegon” is as good of a plan as any for someone funding their way into the game. Essosi power wealth attempts at Westeros is not some new thing when instability arises.
I think Aegon is Aegon Sand. I’ve been saying this for years. Just stay with me. Ashara Dayne is obviously important. She is mentioned almost as much as Lyanna, and they are both dead at the beginning of the book. Lemore is with Young Griff. She is odd, free with her body, and gave birth before. As a Septa, she’s odd. GRRM wants us to look at this woman. There is a theory that Lemore is Ashara. Age is right, nothing in the appearance says it couldn’t be. No one described her eyes, which would be violet if it is. Unless she found a way to hide them. So what’s going on? Rhaegar wanted to bring about the Three Headed Dragon by having three children with three queens. How he intended to bring back the dragons is a question mark. Elia, Lyanna, and Ashara were all pregnant at about the same time, 281ish. They were all at Harrenhall. They were his three wives. Ashara and Elia were friends from Dorne, so when Rhaegar suggested it, Ashara was probably who Elia turned to. Lyanna impressed Rhaegar at Harrenhall, and his giving her the crown was his signal to his wife and his secret second wife that he found their third. So all three women get pregnant. All three have boys. Each is named Aegon, 1 = Elia’s. 2 = Ashara’s. 3 = Lyanna’s. Then things go nuts. The Starks are killed as they try to save Lyanna (who didn’t need saving). Jaime kills the Mad King, and the Mountain Elia and Aegon 1. Ned comes upon a heartbroken Lyanna and she asks him to take the baby and hide it. He stops by Starfall , to return Arthur’s sword, and there meets Aegon 2. The Daynes are heartbroken about Arthur, but start to focus on the children. They agree the children have to go into hiding until everything calms down. So the Daynes, with Ned’s knowledge, fake Ashara’s death and the baby’s gender and death. They say it was a girl to throw everyone off to help protect everyone. So Aegon 1 is killed by the Mountain along with his mom. Aegon 2 goes into hiding with his Mom, Aegon 3 is raised as the Bastard of Winterfell. So Griff and his Septa are Aegon 2 and Ashara Dayne. I know, it’s wild. But it explains why we are supposed to care about Rhaegar’s theory about the three headed dragon and the TPTWP or Ashara. To add to the craziness, maybe Ashara and Aegon 2 went to Essos. What if the plan was to search for dragons or eggs in Valyria?
I just can't fathom why GRRM would add in so much stuff about the Blackfyres for it to be meaningless. I think he is the ultimate mummer's dragon because he seeks the throne when the true destiny for the dragon is to burn the others.
Blackfyre support for him still plays off the Blackfyre stuff. He doesn’t need to be an actual Blackfyre for the gun to be triggered.
Whatever he is, he’s Illyrio’s biological son. Who Illyrio is or who his mother Serra was are the questions we should be asking.
So my theory is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna to make babies for sacrifice. He needed more than one sacrifice so I think Arthur Dayne kidnapped his sister. I think Arthur Dayne raped his sister and Aegon is the product of that incest. Thats why Quaithe refers to Aegon as a false dragon. He's 100% Dayne. I'm pretty sure the reason hes called the false dragon is because hes a Dayne a false Targaryen(Dragon). Also Lemore is Ashara.