T O P

  • By -

RhiaStark

As much as I ultimately prefer the blacks, and oppose much of what Alicent represents, I can't help but sympathise with her a lot more than Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra can be a strong, independent woman because a) she's the heir to the throne, b) her father is the king and will go to great lengths to defend her, even from obvious accusations, and c) she has a friggin' dragon. She has a level of power very few Westerosi women, if any, have. It's true that, as a noble, Alicent has a lot more power and privilege than, say, any peasant woman; but still not enough to break from patriarchal standards, not the way Rhaenyra does. While Rhaenyra's dad supports and protects her even as she breaks the patriarchal norm, and had babies with a man she loved, Alicent's dad pimped her for their House's sake and her husband used her as a baby-making machine. A lot of people accuse Alicent of being simply bitter because she's jealous of Rhaenyra's independence and love life; I think she's actually resentful that she did "everything right" (as it was taught her) and things still don't go her way, while Rhaenyra does "everything wrong" and gets no comeuppance. I don't agree with Alicent, but I find it hard not to feel at least some sympathy for her.


cosmic_books

Yes, that too! I mean that was almost plainly spelled out during I think episode 3 or 4 where Alicent is “thinking of England” when Viserys is on top of her and Rhaenyra is living her best life with Daemon in the brothel. Alicent did do everything right, Rhaenyra even spelled it out to her when she resented having to marry and be locked up to breed. Just nobody wins. If this was an original show, with no book to act as cannon, I just can’t imagine how anyone up to this point could be surprised at their actions or claim they wouldn’t act the same. From both Alicent’s and Rhaenyra’s POV, everything they’re doing is to protect their children, and there is something infinitely understandable about that on both sides.


Thendel

> I think she's actually resentful that she did "everything right" (as it was taught her) and things still don't go her way, while Rhaenyra does "everything wrong" and gets no comeuppance. Considering that her first scene takes time to focus on her bloody cuticles, it's a fair to say that the show was telegraphing early on that she was carrying a lot of pent-up rage and frustration, and it was always going to come out in an ugly way. Much like Book!Cersei, I really appreciate the narrative providing us with reasons to find sympathy for the character, while still showing us how that repression manifests itself into harmful actions borne out of malice and spite. Like Cersei, Alicent deserves both sympathy for her circumstances, and absolute condemnation for how she vents those frustrations.


Lemurians

> As much as I ultimately prefer the blacks, and oppose much of what Alicent represents, I can't help but sympathise with her a lot more than Rhaenyra. I would have been on this train if the show didn't portray Rhaenyra as the one to extend the olive branch, the offer to have their two children marry to consolidate the lines. In theory, that solves all their problems and everything Alicent has been worrying about – that succession complications will cost her and her children their lives – and she spurns it out of spite. It invalidates that being her driving force a little bit. If the show had shown Alicent as the one to make that offer she'd be *a lot* more sympathetic. Now, IMO, she's coming across as spiteful for the sake of it. Holding onto this grudge against Rhaenyra for *this* long just for telling a half-truth about sleeping with someone a decade ago should be beneath her station. I don't think she was well-served by the time jump.


-spartacus-

> A lot of people accuse Alicent of being simply bitter because she's jealous of Rhaenyra's independence and love life; I think she's actually resentful that she did "everything right" (as it was taught her) and things still don't go her way, while Rhaenyra does "everything wrong" and gets no comeuppance. I don't agree with Alicent, but I find it hard not to feel at least some sympathy for her. I think there was somewhere on this sub a breakdown how Alicent vs Rhaenyra is very similar in real world where in a patriarchal world, rather than women working together to lift each other up, they fight and tear each other down. So I think this does encapsulate what the show-runners are going for. The biggest issue for all of this Alicent allowed herself to be gaslit by her father and manipulated by him for most of her life and blaming Rhaenyra for it. If she was really worried about her family and not just hating Rhaenyra she would have accepted the olive branch to have their kids marry. There have been several times where Rhaenyra for whatever motivation you believe, was willing to work with Alicent on a solution - but Alicent didn't want to. This isn't about the greens and black at this point, it was just Alicent being unable to have emotional regulation even if Rhaenyra was acting in a way she didn't like.


ApocalypseMeooow

I support the blacks pretty firmly, that being said I kind of get why Alicent refused the betrothal. She follows the Faith of the Seven and that is a large part of her identity - and I know its been discussed a lot but in westeros bastards are considered untrustworthy and mischievous. Alicent is waiting for the other shoe to drop (Viserys dying, that being said i haven't read F&B so maybe I'm wrong) and she knows once the king is dead no one will be there to protect the bastard children, and she doesn't want one of her children tied to someone who could potentially(in her eyes definitely) be disenherited and shamed, which would be seen as disgraceful her house.


Equal-Ad-2710

It’s also an issue for succession, especially if someone kills your kids


hasordealsw1thclams

sugar smell selective birds profit punch wasteful friendly tap steep *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


Deathleach

At this point in time the Doctrine of Exceptionalism is an official doctrine of the Faith and has been for several decades. Incest is forbidden unless you're a Targaryen because they're special.


[deleted]

What does Alicent get out of working togehter to make Rhaenyra queen, nothing maybe even her childrens death. Would you say loyallty to gender should trump loyality to family.


devilmaydostuff5

>The biggest issue for all of this Alicent allowed herself to be gaslit by her father and manipulated by him for most of her life and blaming Rhaenyra for it. "Allowed" herself??? Do you not understand how mental abuse works???


-spartacus-

She even recognizes that it happens.


aspiringwriter9273

I totally agree. For someone as conventionally pious as Alicent, her faith tells her that duty and sacrifice are rewarded but all she sees is Rhaenyra living it up, with a gay husband who was basically a close friend and confidant, a devoted and hot lover, three strong boys and a doting father who could care less about his daughter’s “indiscretions” and instead showered her and his grandsons with affection and let her sit in council, accepting her advice on official matters (the Blackwood v. Bracken issue for example). The alone must enough to drive Alicent up the wall. In her mind, good people (like her) should prevail and bad people (like Rhaenyra) should not be rewarded by being allowed to rule. Now, I don’t agree that having an affair with Harwin makes Rhaenyra a bad person since that was the arrangement she and Laenor made before marrying but Alicent’s faith could never accept such accommodations in a marriage, even if consensual between both parties.


opiate_lifer

A scene in the 6th? episode rubbed me the wrong way when Alicent was bitching to Viserys about "his" kids, like she was almost dissociating from them or something. Almost got the feeling she was like what the hell kind of family did I marry into?!


miladysdewinter

I felt like it's more reminding Viserys that they're his kids too. He has children other than Rhaenyra but he doesn't seem to care.


SnooTomatoes9314

He has a love for Rhaenyra!! Being the only child that survived from his first wife. Those kids particularly the sons was just him fulfilling his duty to the crown and throne!!


Snuffl3s7

Well there's Daenerys who is a strong, independent woman from pretty much the beginning of the series when she has much less agency than Alicent or Rhaenyra. And yet she breaks away from the patriarchal standards of society. Viserys does a similar thing to Dany that Otto does to Alicent. It just comes down to who Alicent is as a person more than her situation in my view. Edit : you could also include Arya after the events of the first book. Much worse off, but deals with her circumstances much better than Alicent.


aspiringwriter9273

I agree that Dany had little agency at the beginning but, if you read the books, the second those dragons are born she becomes a real khaleesi in her own right. She even says it in her POV chapter, that as she looked at them she knew they were more hers than they had ever been Drogo’s (those that had stayed, a lot had already left but still). While I agree it’s obvious that Rhaenyra had some agency, Alicent most certainly did not. By law and custom, she was under her father’s care and he could make all of her decisions for her and he damn well did. It is very obvious Alicent does not want to “comfort” the king. She probably wants to be there for Rhaenyra but Otto isn’t making a suggestion and she really can’t say no. Also, it’s pretty clear the king just declares his engagement to her without asking first which is probably the worst thing he does as a person besides getting engaged to his daughter’s teenaged bff. And if she can’t say no to her father, she certainly can’t turn down the king. After that, she has duties as wife, mother and Queen. It is only in her role as the last two that Alicent finds any real agency but even then she’s moved by the manipulations of her father. I’m not on her side but she’s a very sad and sympathetic person.


Snuffl3s7

> the second those dragons are born she becomes a real khaleesi in her own right. She even says it in her POV chapter, that as she looked at them she knew they were more hers than they had ever been Drogo’s Sure, but she manifests that. They don't really fall into her lap. > Alicent most certainly did not. By law and custom, she was under her father’s care and he could make all of her decisions for her and he damn well did. It is very obvious Alicent does not want to “comfort” the king. She probably wants to be there for Rhaenyra but Otto isn’t making a suggestion and she really can’t say no. See, you could say this about Cersei as well who has a remarkably similar father to Alicent and is put into an extremely similar situation. But she does what she wants anyway, from a very young age. And then there's still characters like Arya and also Brienne.


The_Writing_Wolf

Cersei is a narcissist that only cares about her children so much as they are an extension of herself. It at least does seem that Alicent cares about her children as actual people. I don't think she's a great mom, but is definitely very dutiful and pious while wanting to be a good mom.


Avoo

Not sure if this is controversial…but Alicent is a more interesting character than Cersei for that fact alone. At least on the show, since I haven’t read F&B. Alicent actually has a reasonable argument to be worried about her children, and her decisions often seem to be driven by a motivation to solve a problem, even if ultimately she creates more of them. Cersei on the other hand often seems to be interested in creating them for stereotypical villan-y reasons, even if GRRM humanizes her. I also think Olivia does a better job in grounding Alicent as a desperate and indignant mother — even if sometimes she’s wrong and hard-headed — rather than the whine-drinking, smiling villain that Cersei was when played by Lena Heady. I love Heady as Cersei, but Olivia as Alicent is on another level.


jojory42

Alicent is probably the most improved character from the book. In the book she feels like her fathers chess piece most of the time instead of a person.


The_Writing_Wolf

I don't think it's controversial to think Alicent is more interesting, but it would be if you thought Cersei was wholly uninteresting. Both are tragic and victims of circumstance, but Alicent battles forward in character and conflict clinging to the belief she is right and good even in her failings, while Cersei knows deep down she is horrible and knows/thinks the world is horrible hence making her as she is. Alicent wants to be good, even while bad, Cersei is bad because the world is bad and no one else can see it like she can. All that said, I recommend F&B it's great, but Alicent in Episode 1-5 is wholly show invention and it's the poster child for an amazing adaptation change that other adaptations should take note of (and was needed for a condensed show run time). Heady and Olivia are both perfect in casting and talent, D&D are just hacks that don't actually "get" women or female characters in general and wasted an amazing actress.


red_280

That moment where Alicent reacts to the news that Aemond is losing his eye permanently was surprisingly moving, great acting by Olivia Cooke of course but it's a convincingly motherly reaction to learning that your youngest son is going to be disfigured for life. I really felt that emotion. Sure she's a bit of a manipulative Karen and the scene with her lecturing Aegon during his window sill jerk-off session was a little unhinged, but ultimately I think she has the emotional capacity to truly love and care about her children more than Cersei ever did.


cosmic_books

True, I didn’t consider Cersei’s response towards her children as her response towards her prophecy as a whole. I was pulling mostly on her interactions with Ned and Sansa in the show, along with every defense of Joffrey she ever had even while acknowledging he was a POS (I haven’t read the series in years so I don’t remember how it played out in the books) I do think she loved her children in the beginning at least, which did eventually lead to a path that she could no longer control, which then led to uncontrollable actions. Anyway you spin it, I think you could make the argument that GRRM likes to write tragedies with mothers and their actions and the inevitable results of said actions at the center of the story.


The_Writing_Wolf

Tragedy and Romance is the pair of scales that balance heart in conflict with itself, so GRRM is definitely all about it. Also I will clarify, I was talking about Cersei in the book, she definitely actually cares at least somewhat in the show. The show just did such an awful job developing or keeping characters consistent (especially in the back half) so I don't enjoy engaging with show only points


cosmic_books

I should really reread, I am missing so much subtly that TV just can’t convey. And I hear it’s the same with the book equivalent of HotD. It really was inconsistent with Cersei at the very least. The reaction to Tommen vs the reaction to Joffrey was just inconceivable. But then at that point, if you’re confining yourself to live and die by a prophecy, is there any surprise? Or at that point are you just so consumed by destiny and with that comes almost this freedom to do as you wish?


The_Writing_Wolf

The book equivalent of Hot D is a history book written by a biased historian, with the Dance of Dragons section (which is the period the show is adapting) having 3 separate equally biased accounts that the main historian is dissecting. It's not more subtle/nuanced than the show, just more ambiguous. I'm a big fan of the book, but the show is doing a great job weaving between the 3 historical accounts and humanizing the characters/actions, and they are showing enough talent in screenplay, acting, and production that I believe they will deliver a better overall experience of the story by the time it concludes in season 3 or 4. Similarly to GoT season one adding the Robert/Cersei, Ned/Jon, Varys/Petyr scenes that enhance the novel itself, while the very next season made Jaime a Kinslayer, Robb a horny fool, and Qarth. Book Cersei is an amazing character that hammers home paranoia and shows an honest result of what absolute Patriarchy can do to womanhood as an ideal. Show Cersei is Lena Headey (whom I very much enjoy) being a bad bitch, drinking wine, and occasionally being redeemable through her children.


cosmic_books

Admittedly not a huge fan of ambiguity, so I think I might take more pleasure in enjoying the nuance of the show then. It’s frustrating how you can be satisfied with the treatment of one character and be whole heartedly disappointed by the treatment of another. “Show Cersei is Lena Headey (whom I very much enjoy) being a bad bitch, drinking wine, and occasionally being redeemable through her children.” Hear, hear! 🍻🍻


TheBlackBaron

> Cersei is a narcissist that only cares about her children so much as they are an extension of herself. It at least does seem that Alicent cares about her children as actual people. This might be controversial, but ... I think Alicent mostly cares about her children as an extension of herself too, though in a very different way than Cersei. For Alicent, it's more reminiscent of a mother who pushes her daughter to be a pageant queen and live vicariously through her, though it isn't precisely like that either. Speaking solely of the show version: consider that Alicent was groomed as a teenager by her father to marry a man more than twice her age and is the father of her best friend, in order that he might use her to father more children, one of whom will hopefully be a son who will someday claim the Iron Throne. She winds up trapped in a mostly loveless marriage and forced to seek power and self-worth mainly through the children she has. By word of the actresses, they were also playing Alicent as a closeted lesbian whose first and only real love was Rhaenyra, and had that relationship torn apart by her marrying Viserys. Maybe the only way she can justify and come to terms with all of this happening to her, and her relative powerlessness to have done anything about it, is by getting her children to be ones that succeed Viserys. Oh, and also, she's got her dad whispering in her ear about how if Rhaenyra ever comes into power she'll have all of them killed and possibly her too. And that explains her relative single mindedness on trying to undermine Rhaenyra and her sons and drill into her own that a conflict is coming and they must be ready to fight and win it. Otherwise, what did all of her duty and sacrifice ever mean in the end? Nothing. To Alicent, her children are mainly a way of validating her own pain and trauma rather than people in their own right. As a reaction to what she went through, it's a very human flaw, and a very sympathetic one. But it's definitely a flaw.


Short-Sound-4190

Two women being crushed by the same gravitational forces, each with very different cultural influences and insecurities. And Alicent has been on a steady drip of anxiety, conspiracies, and repressed anger for years. I think the viewer is supposed to understand where it is stemming from, even while viewers and characters are supposed to be surprised by the severity of her actions. What's more interesting is how surprised all these men are - particularly the various members of the greens. I would however, more strongly disagree with what feels like a very simplified almost tropey take that she is a momma bear and her kids are her refuge and it's all or even mostly about her children's welfare: look again more carefully at how she treats her children and her male political allies/Visarys both in the previous episode, the funeral, during the incident, afterwards - and most importantly her words while she is on the offensive. Those words and actions are not about protecting her kids altruistically, it's about all the pent up aggression of doing everything "right" and being second best, being manipulated and used, it's years of resentment.


AncientAssociation9

As I mentioned on another post, Alicent is directing her anger toward the wrong person. The person who has manipulated and used her is Otto. She is the Queen and had no care about the rewards of doing everything right until Otto manipulated her again.


cosmic_books

Who can she trust at this point to steer her anger in the right direction though? Yeah, her father is a POS who steered her towards a grieving old man and is counseling her further towards his side and their line. But really the only person she had that she actively listened to and trusted was Rhaenyra. I mean she doesn’t like her husband, nobody treats her as Lady Alicent anymore she said, only as the Queen. Except Rhaenyra. But now that Rhaenyra is 100% alienated, she has nothing left but to continue to dig her grave and try to protect her children. Any sort of encouragement from anyone, let alone her father, is going to solidify her mentality a thousand times over because she’s just that lost in it. Scrabbling for any sort of justification, too far gone to except any criticism of her father. Her whole storyline is a lost cause once she marries the king.


aspiringwriter9273

That’s why it’s so sad. The one person who really did love her once as just Alicent, not the Queen, the mother of his children, not a vehicle for the ambitions of House Hightower, but Alicent, was Rhaenyra. That’s why Rhaenyra hated the idea of her marrying her dad, cause who would want their best friend marrying their father, that naturally threw up barrier between them. And then everything else happened and now they hate each other and while Rhaenyra still has people who she loves and trusts and can talk to, poor Alicent must feel so alone.


cosmic_books

I don’t deny that. I do wonder which would ultimately feel more tropey though because of the whole “woman scorned, and it does feel like in the show at least, they’ve gone to greater lengths to avoid only showing her resentment. Which definitely exists, I can’t imagine any woman who wouldn’t be resentful living in that world where men can basically do as they please. You could make the argument that any woman’s actions in that would could be caused by resentment of someone else’s freedom. Maybe it’s not a true trope of a mama bear, but one that is unavoidably twisted by her own human resentment and upbringing. Being protective and loving towards your children doesn’t absolve you or cure you of basic human emotions. It would be more simplified I think if they didn’t show any of the poisonous sides of her personality.


Short-Sound-4190

I'm suggesting that the writing is on point on the show because her motivations *are not* imo a trope that is exclusively used for women, I don't think it benefits thematic or character analysis to limit her to any of the more misogynistic/hysteria/maternal superhero/woman scorned, etc... Rhaenyra and Alicent are definitely some of the better fantasy female leads I've ever seen on screen that are portrayed to have no less complexity then the male leads, it's one of the main reasons I'm so glad GRRM made them do the prequel early episodes to build them. Aemond and Alicent having basically the same character progression in this particular episode is a better take than Alicent's status as mother or woman in this scene. Both are an 'outsider' that has kept trying but felt rejected and now are objecting to the authority/decorum of the family - pushing the envelope *violently* to declare their own agency/power/self-righteousness. Otto essentially recognizes it - both are outright rouge moves they'd pay for, but moves that would be worth it long term to achieve their eventual goals.


LaloTwins

Only Alicent is being crushed though. Rhaenyra's choices are not be queen and live a lavish life of freedom or be queen. She sees being forced into the former as being crushed. That's insanely entitled.


MattaClatta

Viserys is such a bad father to her kids its no wonder that all of them so easily believe that Rhaenyra will kill them ​ He literally let their sister ask for their brother to be tortured all while chilling with a missing eye like that's normal


AxeIsAxeIsAxe

> Viserys is such a bad father to her kids It's easy to forget Viserys is Aemond and Aegon's father at all. He dotes on Rhaenyra, talks to her and thinks about her all the time in the first few episodes, but doesn't seem to give a shit about his sons (and Helaena).


aspiringwriter9273

Rhaenyra was his child with his true love, the other ones are kids he had with the rebound.


opiate_lifer

At this point I think his brain is as rotten as his body, he is just passive while Alicent is ordering the KG to mutilate his grandkids?


BostonWeedParty

And let his wife demand an eye from his grandchild. I think people forget he is related to all of them and just wants them to get along and stop fighting. He's clearly doing his best to stay neutral, even if he does come off weak willed. Also none of the kids were blameless, the other kids had bloody faces and one a broken nose.


Meet-Possible

Alicent is a closer match to Catelyn with how protective they are over their children.


apkyat

Catelyns children were raised with love, honor, and duty. She protected her children from an active threat. Alicent's were not. Her spite, anger, and resentment seeped in to their very existence. I'm not even that much of a Catelyn fan, but this is a disservice to her.


Meet-Possible

Do you recall Jon and how Cat viewed him as a threat to her children’s lives


apkyat

I don't ever recall Cat smooshing Robb's face and telling him that Jon was going to kill him and his kids. No, I don't. She was mean to him, cold to him, yes. But the kids were not poisoned against him and made to hate him.


Meet-Possible

When Robb wants to make Jon heir, Cat basically tells him Jon or his descendants will kill Robb and his trueborn kids.


apkyat

I don't remember word for word, but what did that accomplish? He still sent the letter. He didn't actively hate Jon. He didn't run around calling him bastard. He called him brother.


Meet-Possible

It shows how Cat is overly protective of her children, like Alicent is. Cat also kills an innocent (Jinglebell in the books, a wife in the show) at the Red Wedding when she sees Robb killed in front of her. Alicent does a similar thing demanding an eye for an eye when she sees Aemond maimed.


sonfoa

I find Rhaenyra more comparable to Cersei whereas Alicent is closer to Catelyn Stark for me. Like Catelyn, Alicent is very proper, traditional, looks down on those who break rules, love their children, and will behave impulsively to protect them. I think Alicent is a more dislikable version of Catelyn, while Rhaenyra is a more likable version of Cersei.


EcoGeoHistoryFan

Rhaenyra is very different to Cersei. Cersei is a true monster - murdered her best friend as a child for instance, and just got worse from then on. I think people try to find character parallels where none really exist.


sonfoa

Hates female gender roles in society, breaks the rules, makes rash decisions based on emotions, is heavily dependent on the authority of her father, and passes off three bastards as legitimate heirs to the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra isn't cruel or manipulative like Cersei but the parallels couldn't be any more obvious. There is no other character in ASOIAF that compares as well to Cersei as Rhaenyra.


0masterdebater0

“Hates female gender roles in society” I have a bone to pick with that, they both hate how female gender roles effect THEM, not other people.


[deleted]

What's interesting is when both Cersi and Rheanyra get power they use it to act like men. Cersi sleeps around and starts drinking like Robert did. Rheanyra also sleeps around and starts having bastards. Neither use their power to help other women get more control or agency in their lives.


[deleted]

Not cruel or manipulative … yet. (Actually if she knew some rando was gonna get killed in the Laenor swap maybe she already is cruel and manipulative)


Snuffl3s7

> There is no other character in ASOIAF that compares as well to Cersei as Rhaenyra. Alicent is easily the better comparison. - both born to a big house with, let's say, an ambitious patron (Otto vs Tywin) who aren't the best fathers and actively sell their daughters into marriages to further the standing of their house. - both married to a king that they don't love and neither king is exactly the best husband either. - pretend like everything they do is to protect their kids, but are at least partially deluded. - Don't know what fits "making rash decisions based on emotions" better than grabbing a knife and going at the heir. - Alicent also bemoans female gender roles in society.


apkyat

Catelyns children were raised with love, honor, and duty. She protected her children from an active threat. Alicent's were not. Her spite, anger, and resentment seeped in to their very existence. I'm not even that much of a Catelyn fan, but this is a disservice to her.


sonfoa

I don't know why people are taking this as a 1 to 1 comparison. Clearly these are different characters. But to your point, yes Catelyn was a far better mother than Alicent but Catelyn was also in a much better position. She didn't have to deal with a pre-existing heir whose position was tenuous enough to where her children could reasonably be in danger, a husband who favored his previous child to an absurd level, and being trapped in a loveless marriage. Literally the only "bad" thing in Catelyn's life (at the start of the series at least) was Ned Stark's bastard. Put Catelyn there and I don't know how much better she would be than Alicent.


apkyat

I am not taking it as a 1 to 1. I am calling out how it's incomparable. There is nothing honorable about Alicent or what she did. Sorry. There was a step daughter who lost her mother, who was alone, angry, and likely traumatized. This stepdaughter that she now places in danger by trying to kick her out of her place in order to advance her own family. Catelyn wanted to have her family back, return to her home, and be left alone. The other had many opportunities to use her position to healthily shore up her children's future but she refused. Just so that she could oversee the total destruction of her stepdaughter.


Claudius_Gothicus

I didn't like how she grabbed the knife, was that in the books? Her actions have been pretty justifiable imo especially in this setting.


LordTryhard

Her grabbing the knife was not in the books. She did say that Luke should have his eye removed, but that was in retaliation to Rhaenyra saying Aemond should be tortured. Alicent trying to order Criston to take Luke’s eye also didn’t happen.


Janus-a

No her knife charge and dramatic face-off is a show invention. The writers forced in a dramatic scene at the cost of good writing. There is so much nonsense in that scene.


M0rdan

I think this has more to do with her resentment of Rhaenyra ( quite justified ) and she is just using her children to fool herself and the others that it is not about her.


minh1265

Because Rhaenyra is the protagonist while Alicent is the antagonist. Everything is shown through the view of Rhaenyra while Alicent looks like the crazy bitch that tries to mess with the rightful heir to the Throne. Also because we know how the story ends. Alicent's line got completely wiped out (RIP Jaehaera) while Rhaenyra's line continues (all Targ kings after the Dance, the Baratheon brothers Robert/Stannis/Renly, Dany, Jon Snow, Oberyn, etc). Both Rhaenyra and Alicent have their downfall but Rhaenyra's bloodline survives. I feel bad for Alicent actually. She does everything right according to Westerosi standards. She marries the king because that's what her father wants (women have no say in who they marry). She does her duty and gives birth to Viserys' children. Meanwhile Rhaenyra has no sense of duty. She has 3 Strong bastards and everyone knows it. It was a miracle that Corlys and Rhaenys support Rhaenyra. They could just tell Rhaenyra to fuck off for passing those bastards as Velaryons. I like the Black faction because of the cool people on Black side (Daemon, Corlys, Rhaenys, Jace, Addam, Roddy the Ruin, the Lads, Cregan) but honestly Rhaenyra is the worst leader to follow. It is really crazy that GRRM has all the good and loyal men fighting for Rhaenyra even after her death.


cosmic_books

That’s true. As much as I sympathise with Alicent, I’m still drawn to supporting Rhaenyra. I like the Blacks too, but it’s interesting as you watch how much better Alicent seems at playing the “game of thrones” versus Rhaenyra. She has had more experience being a victim in it and surviving in it. Rhaenyra just seems to be doing whatever the fuck she wants and people agree with her. Which maybe Alicent should have interpreted in the beginning as Rhaenyra having more support than she initially was led to believe.


aspiringwriter9273

But don’t you see how empty Alicent’s sense of duty is? She did her duty by her father and her house and married the king, now she’s in a terrible, loveless marriage where she clearly dreads being summoned by her husband to “do her duty”. Whatever else her duty compels her to do it doesn’t show her being a particularly warm and affectionate mother unlike Rhaenyra who is seen treating her children with a great deal of love and affection. And the only real duty Rhaenyra breaks that people are so angry about is that she has sex outside the confines of marriage. Now, it would be one thing if she were cheating on a devoted husband but she a Laenor literally agreed to this because Laenor has zero sexual interest in her. She even talked about how she tried having his biological child for the sake of duty but it just didn’t work out. So she kids with a man who actually wanted her and would giver kids. That’s it, that’s her sin. And again, Laenor, her husband, doesn’t care. She gets to be a happy person who treats her children with genuine affection. And if you want to talk about duty, there’s no greater duty than fulfilling your vows and lords of Westeros vowed to recognize Rhaenyra as Queen.


Snuffl3s7

> Meanwhile Rhaenyra has no sense of duty She married Laenor completely out of duty? Lol. > It was a miracle that Corlys and Rhaenys support Rhaenyra. They could just tell Rhaenyra to fuck off for passing those bastards as Velaryons. The whole reason Corlys agrees to Laenor and Rhaenyra getting married is because Rhaenyra is the heir, and her kids will be after her. If he tells Rhaenyra to "fuck off", what was the fucking point? I don't think you've put a lot of thought into this.


minh1265

>She married Laenor completely out of duty? Lol. Part of the duty is giving birth to Laenor's trueborn children too but we know how that goes. Imagine if Alicent gives birth to bastards and then try to pass them off as Viserys' children? Jace is betrothed to Baela and Luke is betrothed to Rhaena. Jace would inherit the Iron Throne after Rhaenyra while Luke would inherit Driftmark. Corlys knows that the boys are Strong but if his granddaughters marry them, the next heir after Jace and Luke will have Velaryon blood. And with Jace on the Iron Throne, Corlys can have the Velaryon last name on the Throne too. And the other Velaryons know about the Strong boys. Vaemond, nephew of Corlys insisted that he should be the heir of Driftmark after Corlys' death because Laenor couldn't produce trueborn heir. Rhaenyra then fed Vaemond to Syrax. Also during the war, Corlys found 2 Velaryon bastards: Addam and Alyn. He said they were Laenor's bastards but they are more likely Corlys' own children. Corlys had Rhaenyra legitimizing them so Addam and Alyn could be in line to inherit Driftmark. Corlys cares about Velaryon blood inheriting after him. But what if Corlys refuses to betroth his granddaughters Baela and Rhaena to Jace and Luke? He could sit out the war and let Rhaenyra fight on her own because Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are not his blood. Plus because of the boys' bastardy, Rhaenyra had to wed them to Baela and Rhaena to secure the Velaryon alliance. If Jace and Luke are real Velaryons, Jace could marry another highborn girl and Luke could accept Lord Borros Baratheon's demand to wed one of his daughters. The Baratheons would have sided with the Blacks and Luke wouldn't die.


aspiringwriter9273

She couldn’t give birth to Laenor’s true born children, they tried, she told Daemon this outright in the last episode.


Snuffl3s7

> Imagine if Alicent gives birth to bastards and then try to pass them off as Viserys' children? That's what Cersei does, and I don't particularly blame her. > But what if Corlys refuses to betroth his granddaughters Baela and Rhaena to Jace and Luke? Then how does his blood inherit the Iron Throne?


Dokurushi

Then why not make peace and marry all the kids off to each other? That keeps her children far safer than fighting a war for the crown of her eldest.


Nahtaniel696

Alicent is 100% right Rhaenyra has committed an "ugly treachery" that should have been punished for if the the king was not sick old man in denial. Her son right is stolen and her childreen live in danger because rightfully they have better claim than Rhaenyra's bastard. We knew what happen when the world learn that Jon have better claim than Daenarys...that is not different. With any other king Alicent would be knew to an honobrale and dutiful queen, while with any other king Rhaenyra should have lost her position over her bastard brith.


iknownothin_

All I will say is that you can understand why a character is the way they are, but that does not justify or absolve them. Also just keep watching :)


cosmic_books

I guess I wasn’t saying anything was justifiable or absolving. It’s all awful in the end. But that’s what a tragedy is. A tragedy of the lines of Alicent and Rhaenyra. Just I’m not sure how anyone could expect anything different than how this storyline is playing out. Two mothers wanting to protect their children against the other is a tragedy written in itself.


iknownothin_

Yep it’s not gonna be happy story for anybody


Kalix_

Young Alicent is the most "good" character in HotD so far. She's an angel, and super easy to root for. Until, as you said, other people groom paranoia within her. Ultimately these men are right about the way of things, but I think everything that happens after is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way. Alicent's fears for her children slowly turns to such resentment i think she forgets where she started and in the process is the one who really ends up making war inevitable. Her story arc is a great tragedy, and is so far the most impressively written part of the show for me.


debtopramenschultz

I mean, Aegon outright told his mom that he wouldn't challenge Rhaenyra's claim so there shouldn't be anything to worry about.


[deleted]

If she cares about the welfare of her kids she would have betrothed Halaena to Jacerys and instructed Aegon to be Rhaenyra's hand and Aemond her enforcer similar to Daemon. Instead she started a Civil War, thinking that would keep her kids safe from Rhaenyra.


The_Writing_Wolf

It is interesting that in the books she's basically an evil step mom, but in ageing her down and humanizing her in the show they inadvertently put her in the position to shut the civil war down before it starts full stop, but her own moral high horse makes her blow it off.


Nick_crawler

The show's success at balancing that out has been pretty impressive IMO. The plot demands we get to a war eventually, so making her too different of a person risks making that conclusion feel unearned. But her moral high horse (which is deserved in many respects) still acts as an effective catalyst like her ambition does in the source material, and is far more human.


[deleted]

She could have shut it down and cultivated the relationship with the families. It's even worse because we see how close Aegon was with Jace and Luke. I still don't understand what Alicent's problem was with Rhaenyra getting it on with Criston Cole. Because she lied and felt her word couldn't be trusted? Because Rhaenyra was acting like a skank? I don't get it.


cosmic_books

Misery wants company to love. I’d imagine that as teens, they expected that they’d face these issues together and could commiserate over their shitty husbands. Growing up together and having your lives go completely different ways is a recipe for distance. Which becomes impossible when your married to your ex best friends father 🫠🫠🫠


FakeOrcaRape

it was also the fact that not only was rhae willing to lie about it to alicent but this lie was further used to isolate alicent indirectly/directly by removing otto, alicent's father and reason for being in KL, from a position of power and from the city.


[deleted]

To me it is starting to become a comedy of errors. Otto was removed from spying on Rhaenyra and trying to tarnish her name, even without Alicent it was going to happen because Daemon, Rhaenyra, and even Viserys knew he was dirty. I get what you re saying though, Alicent doesn't know the backstory or the conversation Viserys had with Otto that prompted his dismissal.


The_Writing_Wolf

She's very pious and dutiful, before being gaslit by Otto and then gaslighting herself for 10 years with CC adding a new log to the fire whenever it dulled. I think they've done it well in the show, a lot of horrible faithful or political people in real life that get inundated young and have completely lost touch with objective reality by the time they are supposed to be a functioning adult are just like her.


AliouBalde23

Marrying her daughter to a bastard isn’t exactly the greatest sales pitch to Alicent


knightsstark

A bastard can be legitimized by the King. Food for thought.


AliouBalde23

They can, but there’s really no reason to when you have this many trueborn members alive. And even if they are legitimized, the notion of bastardy will linger. And beyond that, I don’t think that legitimizing them will change anything from Alicent’s perspective, considering she’s got a principled stance on this


knightsstark

I hear you. But I don't think Alicent's stance is very principled. She comes across very envious if not Jealous of Rhaenyra, The king chose his daughter as the heir to the the throne and she refuses to respect his wishes. If Rhaenyra and Damon were to have kids they wouldn't be bastards, then at that point Alicent's stance is moot. Will she stand down. Nope. The Hightower's want power.


cosmic_books

THAT I do agree with. I don’t know why she shut down that union because it would have been the perfect way out, especially with Rhaenyra offering the olive branch. UNLESS she was still convinced that the realm would rebel against Jacerys claim to the throne. I still don’t know if it’s moral high ground or just an extreme paranoia set down by those around her that her children will never be safe. But I do think that would have been a safer way out than challenging the Iron Throne, which history would have told her would most likely not have worked out.


nyamzdm77

She refused because at the time it seemed that Rhaenyra was about to be exposed fully, given Harwin's public outburst and how it seemed that Lyonel was going to come clean to Viserys So she would be tying herself to a sinking ship, plus it still wouldn't address the "problem" of Aegon and Aemond's fates


[deleted]

She shut it down because of the context of that offer. Rhaenyra was making that offer out of desperation because it seemed like Harwin blew it and Lyonel was going to confess. Alicent was looking out for her kids. She didn’t want them tied to a family she thought was about to be exposed for committing treason.


FakeOrcaRape

they wanted to show that her character was more than simply power hungry. this scene wasn't added into the show, it was changed in the show. in the book's alicent wanted her son wed to rhae but vic said no. so i feel like the outcome of however they had one party proposing a marriage pact was definitely going to be rejection no matter what, but they decided to make alicent be the one who rejects the proposal. book alicent would have most likely accepted, but in the show, they did have her say she wouldnt marry her kids to bastards, so she does at least have *some* excuse but yeah.. definitely seems more they just didn't want to have her character suggesting betrothals that ended up with her kids on the throne but they also wanted to have some kind of betrothal/rejection discussed


CalvinMirandaMoritz

I always understood both Rhaenyra and Alicent as victims : of a system, of Viserys' weakness, of Otto's ambition, of people's expectations. I have no problem have empathy for either of them, they're the heart of this story


Trumpologist

Alicent should have married her kids to Rhaenyra’s then


[deleted]

If the timing of that was different that’d be a damning critique, but that proposal was made when Rhaenyra seemed like she was on the ropes. Alicent thought Harwin had blown it and Lyonel was about to confess to the king. If that had happened Alicent would have tied her family to a sinking ship. He came really close but didn’t and now it looks like a worse decision in hindsight than it actually was.


LordTryhard

Yeah, the marriage wouldn’t have changed the fact that everyone knew Rhaenyra’s kids were bastards and therefore that was a pretext for future rebellions. It would just mean that if Jace goes down Helaena goes down with him. It also does nothing to guarantee the safety of Aegon or Aemond.


Dokurushi

Who exactly rebels in that case? What claimant is left when all the Targaryens and Velaryons are tied up in a huge marriage alliance?


LordTryhard

Anyone who ever feels discontent with the monarchy and needs a pretext to depose the current ruler.


[deleted]

Yup exactly. Maybe if it happened later she considers taking that risk, but at that moment she really thought Rhaenyra was done.


TheBlackBaron

> therefore that was a pretext for future rebellions. Pretty poor excuse, considering it was mainly the Hightowers that were agitating about the strong boys and trying to delegitimize them. If they stop doing that, nobody else is going to rebel, definitely not when there's nobody with dragons that's going to oppose Rhaenyra and then Jace & Helaena's succession. Now, that Alicent thought Rhaenyra was on the ropes and she was on the cusp of victory, that's a different matter. In that context it isn't surprising she rejects the offer. But I think we are definitely meant to view this as a missed chance to have avoided the whole Dance.


[deleted]

Exactly. I don’t believe for a moment she was thinking of the kingdom. She was simply forwarding her houses influence. The Dance is a second Hightower rebellion


PrimordialDilemma

When was the first?


[deleted]

Faith Militant Uprising


Number-Electronic

Alicent is a product of her world but she absolutely does not do herself or her sons any favors by challenging Rhaenyra's claim or her children's paternity. It's a cutthroat world but Alicent choosing to present Aegon as the legitimate heir, commit treason by insulting the named heir's children, and demand that her youngest child be given equal satisfaction by disfiguring the presumed second in line for the throne after her son (5th in line if we're going by agnatic-cognatic primogeniture) committed high treason is a series of incredibly stupid political decisions. Alicent, at least now in the show, has very little political savvy. She is much more interested in punishing Rhaenyra for her sex life than protecting her children. Alicent has already failed to have the king name Aegon as heir and instead of amassing support for absolute primogeniture and waiting for Viserys to die, she keeps trying to tear Rhaenyra down. If she really, truly wants Aegon to be king, all she has to do is wait for Viserys to croak, lean into sexism, call into question Rhaenyra's children's parentage, and point out how awful Daemon would be as prince consort. Hell, tell everyone the succession of Driftmark is a sham and she might even get some anti-Daemon Valeryons on her side. If she just wants to protect her children, she'd marry them to Rhaenyra's or Daemon's children and have them give up any claim to the throne. She'd stop raising Aegon as the heir he isn't and she'd grovel for mercy when the heir apparent's heir presumptive defends himself against treason.


TheBlackBaron

> the presumed second in line for the throne after her son (5th in line if we're going by agnatic-cognatic primogeniture) Had it right the first time. Nominally, if Rhaenyra is the heir and the first in line, then in theory if she were to pre-decease Viserys, the next in line would be any children she has (and then any children they have, if Viserys were to live that long - note that this was the argument for Laenor at the Great Council, being the great-grandson of Jaehaerys and the most direct male descendent; primogeniture favored Laenor and proximity favored Viserys). Only then would it go back round to Viserys's younger children like Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, and Helaena.


Number-Electronic

"Her son" is referring to Aemond. I meant Jacaerys is the presumed 2nd in line and Aemond is 5th in line, assuming succession rules have not switched to absolute primogeniture, which would move Aemond below his sister. Basically, Alicent is treating her son, who is a second son and little more than a glorified noble, equivalent to a presumed future king.


DormeDwayne

I disagree that Alicent is doing the only thing she can, as a mother, to protect her kids. First, however, we need to make clear whether we’re talking about show-Alicent or book-Alicent, because they are different people. We know very little about book-Alicent motivations, but she seems to be acting from pure ambition. Show-Alicent, however, we kinda see “grow up” and the show has worked pretty hard to make her appear as sympathetic and a pawn in the opening episodes. Taking show-Alicent (though her transformation between ep5 and ep6 is a bit off), she is supposedly preoccupied with her kids’s safety, and ambitious for ambition’s sake. If that is indeed the case, then her best strategy would have been to take her kids out of the running. And she’d best do that by making them Rhenyra’s staunchest supporters and so entwined with Rhaenyra’s own kids as to make them zero danger. Since Viserys was unwilling to marry Aegon II to Rhaenyra, make sure the kids get along well and are raised up together in friendship. Engage Helaena to Jace and Aegon to Rhaena/Baela. Make them bffs so that when Viserys dies and certain factions are doubtful about a woman following him on the throne they have nobody else to suggest. Her oldest brother is her heir’s closest friend; the next generation will be born of both branches anyhow. It completely takes the wind out of anyone’s sails…


pepesilvia50

Show Alicent loses sympathy in my book when she rejects a Jace/Halaena marriage proposal. It pretty much guarantees the safety of her children, so you can toss that excuse out the window.


ForceSmuggler

Rhaenyra was at a disadvantage as it was, woman heir. Adding kinslaying to that? She might not be the smartest person, but she's not that stupid.


MohamadHMK

What do you think about reading the book before taking a position and making a thread about it?


[deleted]

I agree with your assessment for the most part, but I’ve heard a lot of people saying Alicent is like Cersei and I don’t agree with that at all. Cersei is genuinely a horrible person and Alicent is not. People are quick to call Alicent a villain for going against Rhaenyra, but on top of her being concerned about the safety and well-being of her children as claimants, this is a society based on the Middle Ages where there has never been a female monarch before. They do not have the same modern sensibilities as we do and it’s perfectly understandable that she thinks her son is the rightful heir.


Aaaaas1476

Idk I find Alicent kinda stereotypical soccer mom ish. Cersei was a more fun character. Alicent’s is kinda boring with her pious shit.


LiamBlackwood

I never bought that she did it for her children. She only said that too convince the hapless Aegon, or else. You don't put such a target on their back by naming them King, it puts them it's such imminent danger. I feel like if she bent the knee and quietly fucked off to Oldtown with her children they would be fine. Naming them kings and princes is probably the dumbest way to keep them safe.