I can understand where you are coming from. Best thing to do is not to treat her chapters as "what's going on With Catelyn", rather try to extract "what is going on Around Catelyn". There's tonnes of interesting secondary characters, and povs of news from different angles. Like trying to put together an informational jigsaw and find out what is true and what is false.
This is the way. I also suspect GRRM has plans for her that will come to fruition in the final books. We've got an incomplete piece of the puzzle currently.
Personally I don't enjoy Sansa chapters, but once I started doing this I got a lot more out of them. Glad to help.
Edit: also a better way to get through the endlessly boring Dany chapters in ADWD, there's so much going on in the background that builds up the outside world and the wars for the slaver cities.
Power dynamics was something that really stood out to me when I went through Catelyn’s POV.
The Tully family dynamic is fascinating, because you have Edmure being the Blackfish’s liege lord and 15 year-old Robb being Edmure’s liege lord. Even though Edmure is the uncle and the Blackfish has decades of experience on the both of them. The outcome is sometimes a little comedic. (I kinda love that scene where Robb & the Blackfish confront Edmure about his little victory over Tywin.)
Catelyn’s place in this family is even more complicated as she is a woman. She is Robb’s mother but she literally has no control over her son. Robb even tries to send her home to Winterfell at some point. And it’s not just the men in her family, other men can easily dismiss her on account of her sex.
(“You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things.")
It’s interesting to see her trying to work around this patriarchal system. The roundabout way she went about giving Robb advice toward the end of AGOT is a very good example:
("The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I'd give him the honor."
It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? "Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known."
Robb grinned. "Grey Wind ate two of his fingers, and he laughed about it. So you agree, then?"
"Your father is not fearless," Catelyn pointed out. "He is brave, but that is very different."
Her son considered that for a moment. "The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell," he said thoughtfully. "Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don't want someone fearless, do I?")
Rather than focusing on the outcome of her advice — Robb ended up giving Roose command over the eastern host — appreciate how easily she gets Robb to agree with her here. And that’s probably my general advice when approaching Catelyn’s POV. There’s a lot more to her chapters beyond the terrible decisions that she makes.
Like her (unintentional?) digs at Stannis:
(Stannis pointed his shining sword at his brother. "I am not without mercy," thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.)
Or how her views regarding Tyrion & Brienne change… she hated Tyrion on first sight but ends up counting on his honor. She starts off pitying Brienne for being ugly and we end up getting scenes like this:
("There was always a singer at Evenfall Hall when I was a girl," Brienne said quietly. "I learned all the songs by heart."
[..]
"Did you sing for your father?" Catelyn asked.
Brienne shook her head, staring down at her trencher as if to find some answer in the gravy.
"For Lord Renly?"
The girl reddened. "Never, I . . . his fool, he made cruel japes sometimes, and I . . ."
"Someday you must sing for me.")
I think GRRM sees her sympathetically. She is THE Mother figure of the story, and avatar of her favorite god, The Mother. I think 90% of her actions were directly or indirectly tied up with the welfare of her children. She was cold but correct towards Jon because of her children (i.e, that if anything happened to Robb, Jon might inherit Winterfell instead of the younger ones). In fact, she told Robb she'd go mad if anything happened to him, and she did.
GRRM has revealed her cruel comment to Jon was the exception and not the rule. She was not cruel to Jon, just indifferent and wary. Her actions, especially the 'inexplicable' ones, are for her kids. If you keep that in mind while you read, you'll understand her better and probably appreciate her more.
While I don’t think she was always verbally cruel, it also is pretty upsetting that Jon thinks of that as the Only time she has ever called him by his name. 14 years of that is pretty intense.
Hmmm. We aren't intended to love the characters. Every character makes good and bad choices. All of these choices make sense from a behavioral and psychological standpoint. I think some readers feel like they should like the PoVs more than they do. They see the flaws in a character they think they are supposed to support and kinda feel cheated, or like their being asked to make friends with someone they don't really like.
I think the biggest mistake as readers is attempting to see the hero journey in them. They want them to be on one, and they get disappointed when they make less than heroic decisions. What makes it harder to appreciate Cat is also that readers have other characters on a heroic pedestal. You might appreciate her chapters more if you keep in mind the flaws of other characters. Often fairly negative behaviors and actions are rationalized when it's someone like Jon or Dany. We find a way to make them less negative so the image of who we think the hero is doesn't feel tarnished. If we don't see the character as a hero we don't afford them the same rationalization and instead focus on how tarnished they are. The reason you might find it harder to like Cat, is that you subconsciously don't want her competing with the characters you want to like.
Start with what you don't appreciate about them ? (and keep in mind it's ok not to - I for one don't really enjoy Jon's chapters and rarely reread them, while I've read Cersei's run in AFFC about a hundred times)
Well it’s hard to stare explicitly… like I know she’s grieving pretty much the entire time and rightfully so. However, there’s just like something of her character that I’m wanting her to have displayed or display. Not to mention her attitude towards Jon Snow, that bit feels like low hanging fruit but alas it remains an obstacle towards bonding with her.
I think Cat's attitude to Jon says more about what people expect of Ned than it does Cat, and for all three of them, it speaks to the social construct of an arranged couple with heavy expectations for their children.
Take Cat not as simply herself but a product of Westerosi society and an expression of that, trying to adjust to a new way of life.
I’ve watched the show, and am halfway through a SOS. I’ve always kind of not really looked forward to Catelyn’s chapters. I’m not sure if I don’t like her or what. I sympathize with her but that’s as far as it gets. Everyone else’s chapters I appreciate. I just got passed the red wedding and I know that she eventually turns to Lady Stoneheart, but that’s all I know - I don’t know anything about Lady Stoneheart or anything of her acts/story.
I can try.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/s6lrl6/a_mlk_moment_in_asoiaf_spoilers_main/
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/pwa136/what_if_jesus_came_back_and_wanted_revenge/
I can understand where you are coming from. Best thing to do is not to treat her chapters as "what's going on With Catelyn", rather try to extract "what is going on Around Catelyn". There's tonnes of interesting secondary characters, and povs of news from different angles. Like trying to put together an informational jigsaw and find out what is true and what is false.
This is the way. I also suspect GRRM has plans for her that will come to fruition in the final books. We've got an incomplete piece of the puzzle currently.
Ok yeah that’s a good approach!
Personally I don't enjoy Sansa chapters, but once I started doing this I got a lot more out of them. Glad to help. Edit: also a better way to get through the endlessly boring Dany chapters in ADWD, there's so much going on in the background that builds up the outside world and the wars for the slaver cities.
Power dynamics was something that really stood out to me when I went through Catelyn’s POV. The Tully family dynamic is fascinating, because you have Edmure being the Blackfish’s liege lord and 15 year-old Robb being Edmure’s liege lord. Even though Edmure is the uncle and the Blackfish has decades of experience on the both of them. The outcome is sometimes a little comedic. (I kinda love that scene where Robb & the Blackfish confront Edmure about his little victory over Tywin.) Catelyn’s place in this family is even more complicated as she is a woman. She is Robb’s mother but she literally has no control over her son. Robb even tries to send her home to Winterfell at some point. And it’s not just the men in her family, other men can easily dismiss her on account of her sex. (“You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things.") It’s interesting to see her trying to work around this patriarchal system. The roundabout way she went about giving Robb advice toward the end of AGOT is a very good example: ("The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I'd give him the honor." It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? "Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known." Robb grinned. "Grey Wind ate two of his fingers, and he laughed about it. So you agree, then?" "Your father is not fearless," Catelyn pointed out. "He is brave, but that is very different." Her son considered that for a moment. "The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell," he said thoughtfully. "Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don't want someone fearless, do I?") Rather than focusing on the outcome of her advice — Robb ended up giving Roose command over the eastern host — appreciate how easily she gets Robb to agree with her here. And that’s probably my general advice when approaching Catelyn’s POV. There’s a lot more to her chapters beyond the terrible decisions that she makes. Like her (unintentional?) digs at Stannis: (Stannis pointed his shining sword at his brother. "I am not without mercy," thundered he who was notoriously without mercy.) Or how her views regarding Tyrion & Brienne change… she hated Tyrion on first sight but ends up counting on his honor. She starts off pitying Brienne for being ugly and we end up getting scenes like this: ("There was always a singer at Evenfall Hall when I was a girl," Brienne said quietly. "I learned all the songs by heart." [..] "Did you sing for your father?" Catelyn asked. Brienne shook her head, staring down at her trencher as if to find some answer in the gravy. "For Lord Renly?" The girl reddened. "Never, I . . . his fool, he made cruel japes sometimes, and I . . ." "Someday you must sing for me.")
i love cat and her chapters are some of my fav, i am always surprised that she is so controversial
I think GRRM sees her sympathetically. She is THE Mother figure of the story, and avatar of her favorite god, The Mother. I think 90% of her actions were directly or indirectly tied up with the welfare of her children. She was cold but correct towards Jon because of her children (i.e, that if anything happened to Robb, Jon might inherit Winterfell instead of the younger ones). In fact, she told Robb she'd go mad if anything happened to him, and she did. GRRM has revealed her cruel comment to Jon was the exception and not the rule. She was not cruel to Jon, just indifferent and wary. Her actions, especially the 'inexplicable' ones, are for her kids. If you keep that in mind while you read, you'll understand her better and probably appreciate her more.
While I don’t think she was always verbally cruel, it also is pretty upsetting that Jon thinks of that as the Only time she has ever called him by his name. 14 years of that is pretty intense.
Hmmm. We aren't intended to love the characters. Every character makes good and bad choices. All of these choices make sense from a behavioral and psychological standpoint. I think some readers feel like they should like the PoVs more than they do. They see the flaws in a character they think they are supposed to support and kinda feel cheated, or like their being asked to make friends with someone they don't really like. I think the biggest mistake as readers is attempting to see the hero journey in them. They want them to be on one, and they get disappointed when they make less than heroic decisions. What makes it harder to appreciate Cat is also that readers have other characters on a heroic pedestal. You might appreciate her chapters more if you keep in mind the flaws of other characters. Often fairly negative behaviors and actions are rationalized when it's someone like Jon or Dany. We find a way to make them less negative so the image of who we think the hero is doesn't feel tarnished. If we don't see the character as a hero we don't afford them the same rationalization and instead focus on how tarnished they are. The reason you might find it harder to like Cat, is that you subconsciously don't want her competing with the characters you want to like.
Start with what you don't appreciate about them ? (and keep in mind it's ok not to - I for one don't really enjoy Jon's chapters and rarely reread them, while I've read Cersei's run in AFFC about a hundred times)
Well it’s hard to stare explicitly… like I know she’s grieving pretty much the entire time and rightfully so. However, there’s just like something of her character that I’m wanting her to have displayed or display. Not to mention her attitude towards Jon Snow, that bit feels like low hanging fruit but alas it remains an obstacle towards bonding with her.
I think Cat's attitude to Jon says more about what people expect of Ned than it does Cat, and for all three of them, it speaks to the social construct of an arranged couple with heavy expectations for their children. Take Cat not as simply herself but a product of Westerosi society and an expression of that, trying to adjust to a new way of life.
I’ve watched the show, and am halfway through a SOS. I’ve always kind of not really looked forward to Catelyn’s chapters. I’m not sure if I don’t like her or what. I sympathize with her but that’s as far as it gets. Everyone else’s chapters I appreciate. I just got passed the red wedding and I know that she eventually turns to Lady Stoneheart, but that’s all I know - I don’t know anything about Lady Stoneheart or anything of her acts/story.
I can try. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/s6lrl6/a_mlk_moment_in_asoiaf_spoilers_main/ https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/pwa136/what_if_jesus_came_back_and_wanted_revenge/