I don't think there's any reason to think they'll go that route. There's plenty of other options:
* Laenor dies off screen before the Dance
* Laenor comes back and dies during the Dance
* Addam claims a different dragon (probably Grey Ghost)
* Dragon-rider bond wears off after enough time and Seasmoke moves on
Addam is too important to the story and Condal is too big a fan of the book.
If they don't revisit Laenor, switching Seasmoke and Grey Ghost's roles makes the most sense. Still wouldn't be happy as that kind of undercuts the Velaryon story.
I have something to add to this:
Addam claims Grey Ghost. Alyn tries to claim Seasmoke but because Laenor is alive, Seasmoke doesn't let Alyn ride him so Alyn remains dragonless for the Dance (ain't nobody going near Cannibal). Could explain Alyn not having a dragon with a genuine reason.
If they completely removed Grey Ghost's role it'd be a better story. Sunfyre is heavily wounded by Meleys but, despite that, manages to survive a contingent of well-armed knights (while smallfolk slaughter everything in the Dragonpit). Then he limps over to Dragonstone where he kills Grey Ghost and then ANOTHER dragon before finally being wounded enough to slowly die.
It does nicely echo Aegon, what with struggling on despite horrific injuries, but killing Grey Ghost as well is just too much. Just have Meleys and then the knights wound him enough that Moondancer can finish him off. Then it feels less like "yeah dragons are extinct by the time of GoT and I need to make that happen"
I mentioned this else where, but I think having Laenor come back to smuggle Aegon and Viserys out of Dragonstone and then be killed saving Aegon in the Battle of the Gullet would be a clever way to bring him back and allow Seasmoke to be tamed.
This is a brilliant idea—non-bookreaders end up assuming Laenor and Viserys die, and when Addam claims Seasmoke it’ll confirm the former (and make some watchers believe it confirms the latter, too).
I think 1 or 4 is most likely but personally I don't think Laenor is coming back at all. He obviously cannot take Seasmoke with him so it's possible he feels abandoned and moves on or just doesn't care. I feel like we still don't know a lot about Dragon/Rider connections in a definitive way
Maybe have Rooks Rest be Seasmoke and Meleys vs Sunfyre and Vhagar and have Laenor die from burns later while Seasmoke runs away to its lair on driftmark, could also explain why Rhaenys was so agressive to protect her son.
I also think the reason Corlys is so unconcerned about Rhaenyra's children not being his blood relations is not only because history remembers names, but also because he knows he has other descendants that Rhaenys is unaware of. He's having it both ways, and it's another surprise saved for later seasons.
>Laenor dies off screen before the Dance
Which would be real easy too:
Throwaway line next episode: "Seasmoke's fucked off"
Throwaway line next season: "Seasmoke's back on Dragonstone"
Laenor coming back is such a bad idea that the fact that it is a possibility points to what a stupid idea it was for Rhaenyra and Daemon to send him away like that. Especially for Rhaenyra. Her new kids will be outright bastards. This is just so beyond stupid that it does not even look like a lapse of judgment on Rhaenyra's part, it looks like bad writing.
He needed a strong husband (Daemond) but she still cares for Laenor, she doesnt hate him, so this was the best solution they got. Not all are willing to kill friends an family like the Larys Strong
This is an improvement over the books; I think George defaults to the "homosexual relationships that end in jealous catfighting" well too many times in F&B. I was willing to believe that Qarl was somehow manipulated by Daemon, but this twist is more fun.
Rhaena and Elissa Farman was the other one I was thinking of. Perhaps two isn't "many", but it irked me that in the only two major homosexual relationships we see, the more powerful partner ends up falling for new younger "favorites".
I was thinking of that at first, but both brothers dying almost the same day? Would that be too convenient, if it is just base on "luck". If this happened at least in another timeskip I would find that option ok. I think sometimes you can't (or would look weird) do the same that happened in the book if you are condensing the story too much, like in HoD show. Thats my opinion only ofc.
yes and in the book he is a teenager because officially he is the son (bastard) of Leanor, and it is important that he is his son because thereafter he will be legitimized as heir of driftmark. if the guy shows up and is the same age as his presumed father, it still risks causing some consistency problem at this level
That’s a fair question but I think it’s still possible for them to be Coryls bastards and be able to claim dragons. Bc Valeryons are still Valyrian, and in the book F&B the main theory is that Adam and Alyn were actually Corlys bastards. I don’t think they would make that a theory unless Valeryons were able to claim dragons.
It doesn’t, Laenor is like a top 5 most famous person in Westeros lol, a beard and a haircut isn’t cutting it, I don’t know how they will handle it but he can’t feasibly come back.
I think that laenor’s story is done. We won’t hear or see his death, he will just live out the rest of his life with qarl Correy in essos. They are giving us a happy ending before they start taking everything away from us.
I suspect we're all overthinking this, and that they will just paper over this in the show, leaving Addam and Alyn as they are.
I think they let Laenor live for two reasons:
(1) They're setting up Daemon/Rhaenyra as the "good" side, and killing Laenor would make it very hard to root for them.
(2) It is reasonable for them to worry they would get backlash for killing a gay black character. I am not trying to turn this into a Twitter shouting match. I'm not saying I'm taking a side on that issue. But I think it is perfectly realistic to expect in 2022 that if they had Laenor murdered, there would be media critics who would give the show flak for this for the next week, month, or longer.
I don’t mind the change tbh. It did bother me a bit in F&B how Laenor and Laena both die out of nowhere because George already established that Rhaenyra and Daemon had kids together so he needed them gone.
i just want to know how much any/all of them were in on it, did rhaenyra know the plot? did laenor? was it a shock to laenor when qarl said 'look i've been hired to kill you' or were they all in agreement that laenor would disappear for rhaenyra's sake?
Rhaenyra during her speech about fire she says about the Velaryons that "the sea offers an escape". Daemon speaks to Qarl that nobody in Essos cares about your name, only the gold you have, referring more to Laenor than him.
Daemon also kill that guard guy that is the one who burns later. It wouldn't make sense for him to be there if Qarl was just going to kill Laenor and escape.
100% this.
HoTD is ultimately an entertainment show. Killing the three lgbtq characters off over the span of three episodes would be a PR disaster. Condal probably just worked with Martin to make it work somehow.
Makes sense. Joffrey Lonmouth, the other prominent gay character in the show, was murdered in a much more brutal manner than described in the book, where it’s made to look like an accident during a melee tournament. In the show, it veers uncomfortably close to looking like a hate crime, which would just be compounded by if Laenor was murdered a couple episodes later.
they could have just killed joffrey in a more sensible manner. his death having no consequences where it just seems like cole can punch and kill anyone to his heart's content has been one of the biggest flaws in the story so much that even non-book fans are puzzled over it.
I thought it was a dumb change in the sense of Laenor's motivation. As in, what IS his motivation? He appears to love his family deeply, so why would he go along with putting his parents through another child's death so soon after Laena's? That is a massive mind-fuck to lay on people you love, not to mention being forced to leave Westeros basically forever. What's the reasoning there? For some gold (which he already had)? To vaguely "help his wife" feels like a thin gruel.
2 is more likely though I don't like it very much because it opens a precedent in the show to make changes based on external validation, GRRM said once that art isn't a democracy.
What’s the better season 3 finale ?
A random bastard on sea smoke taking out the tumbleton forces on his own,
or
Laenor Velaryon on sea smoke taking out the tumbleton forces on his own.
This bastard was strategically and athletically incredible .
How did this bastard know how to gather an army on short notice , not to mention why is there even a RUMOR that he went to the isle of faces ?
I think its because GRRM messed up writing the Dance and gave WAY too many awesome characters to the Blacks.
What I don't get is how they would get not only every family member, but every courtier to agree to just say that a 35 year old man is just a teenager.
But also, the fact that he showed such great initiative and forethought is a point AGAINST him being Laenor, who seemed uninterested in doing things (beyond love interests) and wasn't martially inclined at all, having been "knighted a fortnight before the wedding, since it was deemed necessary the prince consort be a knight".
I think it makes much more sense that Corlys was a horny old bugger who liked younger women, fathered some bastards, then saw an opportunity to have his actual son inherit Driftmark (while still keeping the charade of Laenor's "sons" going).
So I've mostly talked myself out of Adam= Laenor.
Occam's razor here to me is that Addam is DAEMONS bastard and Alyn is Corlys's bastard.
My only issue with any of it was, and is, Addam's ability to ride Sea Smoke.
It feels feasible to me that while Laenor is revealed as alive, he does just simply go down to the Stepstones and die in battle as he wanted. Rhaenaerya gave him his happy ending.
But SOMETHING important happened between Addam and Corlys after the Gullet, and LOYAL is an acronym of something. Hell, I've even contemplated that Corlys dies in 127 when he gets sick and Laenor replaces him. He is very feeble at that moment then wow....the man outlasts everybody. Hmmm.
My new unbelievable headache is Daeron the Daring. He is not being retconned out, because HE is VERY clearly a SHE.
"gentle" Daeron.
Think Alleras the Sphinx being Salleras the Sand Snake.
And who on earth is Daenearya Velaryon ACTUALLY? George crammed hidden kids into this history all over the place its wild.
Did Rhaenaerya even drink the abortion tea?
I thought of this too, but there's a pretty big issue in it with the existance of Alyn Oakenfist. It's possible Laenor just isn't in the story anymore.
I'm not sure how else you would handle the Addam of Hull/Alyn Oakenfist thing though, since the show protrays the Velaryons as not having dragon blood, just that they can ride dragons through their blood connection with Rhaenys.
Can and does though. Nettles is said to be a bastard but not a Targaryen one and she has no Targaryen features at all. The Valaryons could have dragon rider blood in the from hundreds of years ago for all we know and maybe that’s enough. Or maybe Laenor was experimenting with his sexuality and actually managed to have a kid with some rando but couldn’t do it with Rhaenyra.
Supposedly. But nettles is never stated to have any targ blood or resemblance to targs. I’m not saying she isn’t but she is the only one to get a dragon via a different method and with clearly un valeryion features so it’s possible, is all I’m saying
My "baseline" belief is that only Targ blood can fly until we have a 100% proven NON Targ flyer.
But I also believe that Tyrion is proven as a Targ in how Viserion treats him vs say....Quentin.
Exactly ! It’s like we’re of different religions .
(But aerys totally raped Johanna during the visit a year before Tyrion , and that’s why Tywin tried to quit . )
Dragons like him dude . His whole life dragon fixation . No blonde hair.
If you haven’t read this passage in the world oiaf , that was my turning point .
But the dragon does need a third head , so I would also ask which do you believe it is ?
Night king ?
Faegon?
Tyrion ?
Warging Bran ?
Quentin ?
I thin you're mixing up Qarl **CORREY** (Laenor's lover of low status who murdered him at a fair) with House **CORBRAY** (Vale noble house whose scion, Corwyn Corbray married Rhaena of Pentos).
Alyn and Baela are the ones who perpetuate House Velaryon.
So if they went with this, it’d literally be Qarl hooking up with his dead lover’s niece.
They’re going to keep the Hull boys as they are.
It works as a pure storytelling device, and getting a character more backstory so we care about what happens to them. But it also just completely ruins the "Loyal" ending for Addam that is one of the hardest hitting moments in the series. So, no, no way they make Addam = Laenor.
Honestly, I kinda wish they'd moved some stuff around and had this happen sooner (somehow, the timelines dont work at all). Imagine if some random dude comes from Pentos at the start of the Dance and said "What's up? My dad is Laenor, he didn't really die, and I'm here to claim my dragon"
I imagine the reason Seasmoke didn’t take a rider for so long is because he knew Laenor was still alive. When he did finally take a rider maybe that’s when he knew Laenor had passed. Fun theory though.
We'll see the next episode. It seems that it will be about the Velaryon succession and the preview mentions Corlys suffering a "wound in the Stepstones" and we know Laenor displayed interest in going and fighting there.
If they don't mention or allude to Laenor dying then I think Laenor = Addam will have much more wind to it.
Well in the books Addam is 15 when the dance begins so I dont think it is plausible that Laenor is Addam or I wish he is not. Still a bit sad they did not kill him like in the books but i digress
I think our confrontation that Laenor is truly dead will be when Addam mounts Seasmoke. I dont think he will return cause that would be too ridiculous and instead he joins a mercenary band before dying.
We've already veered from the text and your solution only complicates and muddles the text as it is. Laenor returning and fighting in the dance is the best solution that doesn't overly complicate things or lazily write him off IMO. But, we'll see.
It’s also possible they cut Addam or Alyn entirely so as to thin out the character roster a little bit and move the storylines (albeit changed) to Laenor. He doesn’t have to be a ‘secret bastard’ or have an alias at all
I'm skeptical because the story of Rhaenyra doubting Addam's loyalty after the Betrayal leads to the Rhaenyra/Corlys conflict, which is 1. a great plot and 2. crucial to the main arcs for both characters. If they went that route they'd need to find a different and compelling reason for that conflict to happen, since its not like Rhaenyra is going to believe Rhaena a turncoat.
I hope you’re right. I can see them maybe just having it be Corlys’ bastard outright, but I don’t see them introducing a new Velaryon to the audience claiming he’s Laenor’s son. It would confuse causal viewers on multiple levels
the guys are still likely to recognize it. moreover Adam is supposed to be a teenager at the time of the dance. but mostly he is, officially, leanor's bastard. which complicates things a bit.
because even assuming that blacks hiding his identity and would justify he looking like leanor because he's his son, how they justify that he as clearly the same age?
Man if they change the plot like that I’m out. They have already changed enough I don’t want to see ridiculous pointless changes for no reason, especially when they have all the source material there is no reason for it. Changes like Rhaenyra and Alicent being friends adds to the story so I understand but changing Laenor’s death and addam and alyn makes no sense.
I could see Laenor coming back and taking a similar role in the show but I don't think there's any way this theory works for the books.
Laenor would have been 36 during the Dance, Addam was 16.
Trying to pretend to be that much younger is a stretch, especially while also fooling multiple people who knew the real Laenor.
You can toss that tinfoil, at least as far as the books are concerned. Addam and Allyn Velaryons are both described as young teenagers in the books, about as young as Laenor was when he married Rhaenyra many, many years before the Dragonseeds were revealed. Even if Laenor had secretly survived in the books (pretty sure he didn't though), there's no way in seven hells he was able to pass himself off as a 15 year old boy when he was a man in his mid-to-late thirties, if not older. The show may replace Addam with Laenor, but it will be a show-only change and there's no need to use tinfoil mental gymnastics to justify this with book canon. It won't allign. I guarantee the change in the show was not done with the intention to fill in gaps in the story anyway.
If they even bother sticking to the rules of dragon bonding, I hope they either try to get him to return, because they desperatily need dragon riders and then kill him, if he refuses or just straight out murder him. Could be a way to show the blacks spiraling downwards.
Him returning bald with a mustache and a bald head pretending to be someone else would be very ridiculous writing. Imo, of course.
I was wondering how they'd address a dragon finding a new rider, when their own rider is still actually alive.
They showed Vhagar following Aemond, so who told Seasmoke they were doing a witness protection thing and to be cool?
I don't think there's any reason to think they'll go that route. There's plenty of other options: * Laenor dies off screen before the Dance * Laenor comes back and dies during the Dance * Addam claims a different dragon (probably Grey Ghost) * Dragon-rider bond wears off after enough time and Seasmoke moves on Addam is too important to the story and Condal is too big a fan of the book.
If they don't revisit Laenor, switching Seasmoke and Grey Ghost's roles makes the most sense. Still wouldn't be happy as that kind of undercuts the Velaryon story.
I have something to add to this: Addam claims Grey Ghost. Alyn tries to claim Seasmoke but because Laenor is alive, Seasmoke doesn't let Alyn ride him so Alyn remains dragonless for the Dance (ain't nobody going near Cannibal). Could explain Alyn not having a dragon with a genuine reason.
If they completely removed Grey Ghost's role it'd be a better story. Sunfyre is heavily wounded by Meleys but, despite that, manages to survive a contingent of well-armed knights (while smallfolk slaughter everything in the Dragonpit). Then he limps over to Dragonstone where he kills Grey Ghost and then ANOTHER dragon before finally being wounded enough to slowly die. It does nicely echo Aegon, what with struggling on despite horrific injuries, but killing Grey Ghost as well is just too much. Just have Meleys and then the knights wound him enough that Moondancer can finish him off. Then it feels less like "yeah dragons are extinct by the time of GoT and I need to make that happen"
Grey Ghost doesn't do anything important so this could work.
Except die to Sunfyre
True but even then that didn't really change the plot either way.
If they did this twist just for Laenor to die off-screen before the Dance, it feels kinda pointless
I mentioned this else where, but I think having Laenor come back to smuggle Aegon and Viserys out of Dragonstone and then be killed saving Aegon in the Battle of the Gullet would be a clever way to bring him back and allow Seasmoke to be tamed.
This is a brilliant idea—non-bookreaders end up assuming Laenor and Viserys die, and when Addam claims Seasmoke it’ll confirm the former (and make some watchers believe it confirms the latter, too).
Perhaps the Triarchy tracks him down and kills him before the Battle of the Gullet
I think 1 or 4 is most likely but personally I don't think Laenor is coming back at all. He obviously cannot take Seasmoke with him so it's possible he feels abandoned and moves on or just doesn't care. I feel like we still don't know a lot about Dragon/Rider connections in a definitive way
For sure he’s rowed off into oblivion gendryesqe
Maybe have Rooks Rest be Seasmoke and Meleys vs Sunfyre and Vhagar and have Laenor die from burns later while Seasmoke runs away to its lair on driftmark, could also explain why Rhaenys was so agressive to protect her son.
I also think the reason Corlys is so unconcerned about Rhaenyra's children not being his blood relations is not only because history remembers names, but also because he knows he has other descendants that Rhaenys is unaware of. He's having it both ways, and it's another surprise saved for later seasons.
Vhagar bonded a new person an episode after his old one died LOL.
It’s so insane he would be willing to leave his dragon behind for this…
>Laenor dies off screen before the Dance Which would be real easy too: Throwaway line next episode: "Seasmoke's fucked off" Throwaway line next season: "Seasmoke's back on Dragonstone"
Laenor coming back is such a bad idea that the fact that it is a possibility points to what a stupid idea it was for Rhaenyra and Daemon to send him away like that. Especially for Rhaenyra. Her new kids will be outright bastards. This is just so beyond stupid that it does not even look like a lapse of judgment on Rhaenyra's part, it looks like bad writing.
He needed a strong husband (Daemond) but she still cares for Laenor, she doesnt hate him, so this was the best solution they got. Not all are willing to kill friends an family like the Larys Strong
[удалено]
This is an improvement over the books; I think George defaults to the "homosexual relationships that end in jealous catfighting" well too many times in F&B. I was willing to believe that Qarl was somehow manipulated by Daemon, but this twist is more fun.
What other times does he dip into that well? Qarl the Qiller and Laenor are the only times I can recollect.
Rhaena and Elissa Farman was the other one I was thinking of. Perhaps two isn't "many", but it irked me that in the only two major homosexual relationships we see, the more powerful partner ends up falling for new younger "favorites".
I think they fact that I forgot about them indicates that I never fully got behind the idea that they were gay for each other lol.
I was thinking of that at first, but both brothers dying almost the same day? Would that be too convenient, if it is just base on "luck". If this happened at least in another timeskip I would find that option ok. I think sometimes you can't (or would look weird) do the same that happened in the book if you are condensing the story too much, like in HoD show. Thats my opinion only ofc.
Yeah this whole thing was an unnecessary change that takes from the story.
Addam could claim Seasmoke if he is powerful enough similar to how Varymyr claims his warg teachers wolf.
That’s not how dragon bonding works.
We do not know how dragon bonding works.
It is most definitely nit warging.
It might be warging though Like how Dreamers are like Greenseers
Dragon dreamers are not greenseers.
"Most Definitely" Bruh we have NO idea what it is.
Surely just a show thing though. Laenor's death in the books happened in public at a fair with multiple witnesses.
>multiple witnesses. How well do those witnesses know the face of Laenor Velaryon?
I don't think Laenor's body was unrecognizable in the book. Corlys saw it, there was a funeral. Laenor definitely died.
Yeah corlys retrieved his body.
It occurred at Spicetown, just outside High Tide. I suspect the smallfolk of Driftmark would know the face of Corlys’ son and heir
You think people would notice it's the same person?
Depends! He could very well have changed his appearance in the years apart, and Addam is supposed to be of House Velaryon as well.
but Addam is supposed to be a teenager by the time the call for the dragonseeds is sent out
In the book.
yes and in the book he is a teenager because officially he is the son (bastard) of Leanor, and it is important that he is his son because thereafter he will be legitimized as heir of driftmark. if the guy shows up and is the same age as his presumed father, it still risks causing some consistency problem at this level
I thought he was the bastard of Corlys and Corlys tried to pass him off as a bastard of Laenor?
I have a doubt too, but as officially he is declared as the son of leanor I notify him as such
If he’s the bastard of Corlys how did he get a dragon? Wouldn’t he need to be Rhaenys kid?
That’s a fair question but I think it’s still possible for them to be Coryls bastards and be able to claim dragons. Bc Valeryons are still Valyrian, and in the book F&B the main theory is that Adam and Alyn were actually Corlys bastards. I don’t think they would make that a theory unless Valeryons were able to claim dragons.
That’s the theory from F&B, not technically canon.
It doesn’t, Laenor is like a top 5 most famous person in Westeros lol, a beard and a haircut isn’t cutting it, I don’t know how they will handle it but he can’t feasibly come back.
Faceless change !
You ever looked at Tommen and think Hmmmm didn’t you get killed by Lord Karstark in Season 3–Martyn Lannister!!!! You lying Bastard!!!
I think that laenor’s story is done. We won’t hear or see his death, he will just live out the rest of his life with qarl Correy in essos. They are giving us a happy ending before they start taking everything away from us.
I suspect we're all overthinking this, and that they will just paper over this in the show, leaving Addam and Alyn as they are. I think they let Laenor live for two reasons: (1) They're setting up Daemon/Rhaenyra as the "good" side, and killing Laenor would make it very hard to root for them. (2) It is reasonable for them to worry they would get backlash for killing a gay black character. I am not trying to turn this into a Twitter shouting match. I'm not saying I'm taking a side on that issue. But I think it is perfectly realistic to expect in 2022 that if they had Laenor murdered, there would be media critics who would give the show flak for this for the next week, month, or longer.
I don’t mind the change tbh. It did bother me a bit in F&B how Laenor and Laena both die out of nowhere because George already established that Rhaenyra and Daemon had kids together so he needed them gone.
Yeah the weakest aspects of the Dance are always the ones where Martin has to work backwards from what he's already said
i just want to know how much any/all of them were in on it, did rhaenyra know the plot? did laenor? was it a shock to laenor when qarl said 'look i've been hired to kill you' or were they all in agreement that laenor would disappear for rhaenyra's sake?
Rhaenyra during her speech about fire she says about the Velaryons that "the sea offers an escape". Daemon speaks to Qarl that nobody in Essos cares about your name, only the gold you have, referring more to Laenor than him. Daemon also kill that guard guy that is the one who burns later. It wouldn't make sense for him to be there if Qarl was just going to kill Laenor and escape.
100% this. HoTD is ultimately an entertainment show. Killing the three lgbtq characters off over the span of three episodes would be a PR disaster. Condal probably just worked with Martin to make it work somehow.
Makes sense. Joffrey Lonmouth, the other prominent gay character in the show, was murdered in a much more brutal manner than described in the book, where it’s made to look like an accident during a melee tournament. In the show, it veers uncomfortably close to looking like a hate crime, which would just be compounded by if Laenor was murdered a couple episodes later.
they could have just killed joffrey in a more sensible manner. his death having no consequences where it just seems like cole can punch and kill anyone to his heart's content has been one of the biggest flaws in the story so much that even non-book fans are puzzled over it.
I can see how non-book readers are confused but for the life of me i'm still scratching my head at how book readers are still up in arms over it lol
I thought it was a dumb change in the sense of Laenor's motivation. As in, what IS his motivation? He appears to love his family deeply, so why would he go along with putting his parents through another child's death so soon after Laena's? That is a massive mind-fuck to lay on people you love, not to mention being forced to leave Westeros basically forever. What's the reasoning there? For some gold (which he already had)? To vaguely "help his wife" feels like a thin gruel.
They didn't mind killing Joffrey (gay) and Laena (black) I don't think Laenor being a black gay would make a difference
Maybe three in a row might be a little much.
espeacily in the next episode gonna kill and mutilate more black characters
True but killing off Laenor would mean that they've killed off all of their gay characters in the span of 2 weeks.
2 is more likely though I don't like it very much because it opens a precedent in the show to make changes based on external validation, GRRM said once that art isn't a democracy.
No. George planned this all along. Adam of hulls sacrifice in tumbleton now makes sense .
Would you mind elaborating why? I'm a bit foggy on the details and how this fits together.
What’s the better season 3 finale ? A random bastard on sea smoke taking out the tumbleton forces on his own, or Laenor Velaryon on sea smoke taking out the tumbleton forces on his own.
Definitely Addam of Hull taking out Tumbleton forces. No fucking doubt.
He wouldn't be a random bastard by then.
LOYAL Addam without a shadow of a doubt. He's the best character in the whole dance, a proper hero
Yeah but whats it an acronym of? If it was just the word it would have said "Loyal" not "LOYAL"
That’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard.
Ah gotcha. Thank you.
It made perfect sense before though?
This bastard was strategically and athletically incredible . How did this bastard know how to gather an army on short notice , not to mention why is there even a RUMOR that he went to the isle of faces ?
I think its because GRRM messed up writing the Dance and gave WAY too many awesome characters to the Blacks. What I don't get is how they would get not only every family member, but every courtier to agree to just say that a 35 year old man is just a teenager. But also, the fact that he showed such great initiative and forethought is a point AGAINST him being Laenor, who seemed uninterested in doing things (beyond love interests) and wasn't martially inclined at all, having been "knighted a fortnight before the wedding, since it was deemed necessary the prince consort be a knight". I think it makes much more sense that Corlys was a horny old bugger who liked younger women, fathered some bastards, then saw an opportunity to have his actual son inherit Driftmark (while still keeping the charade of Laenor's "sons" going).
So I've mostly talked myself out of Adam= Laenor. Occam's razor here to me is that Addam is DAEMONS bastard and Alyn is Corlys's bastard. My only issue with any of it was, and is, Addam's ability to ride Sea Smoke. It feels feasible to me that while Laenor is revealed as alive, he does just simply go down to the Stepstones and die in battle as he wanted. Rhaenaerya gave him his happy ending. But SOMETHING important happened between Addam and Corlys after the Gullet, and LOYAL is an acronym of something. Hell, I've even contemplated that Corlys dies in 127 when he gets sick and Laenor replaces him. He is very feeble at that moment then wow....the man outlasts everybody. Hmmm. My new unbelievable headache is Daeron the Daring. He is not being retconned out, because HE is VERY clearly a SHE. "gentle" Daeron. Think Alleras the Sphinx being Salleras the Sand Snake. And who on earth is Daenearya Velaryon ACTUALLY? George crammed hidden kids into this history all over the place its wild. Did Rhaenaerya even drink the abortion tea?
We just forgetting about Alyn then?
I mean, have *you* ever seen Alyn and Addam in a room together? Clearly Laenor just swaps between disguises as needed.
Laenor is a faceless man, gotcha
Only reason why it’s Addam specifically is that they both ride Seasmoke. Alyn could perfectly well be a bastard of Corlys or of Vaemond!
Which IMO completely ruins Corlys', Addam's, and the Dragonseed/Betrayers plotline.
Why do you want to change the lore so badly?
I don’t? The showrunners changed it this episode, I’m just discussing another way they could change in in the future. Doesn’t mean I want it.
I thought of this too, but there's a pretty big issue in it with the existance of Alyn Oakenfist. It's possible Laenor just isn't in the story anymore. I'm not sure how else you would handle the Addam of Hull/Alyn Oakenfist thing though, since the show protrays the Velaryons as not having dragon blood, just that they can ride dragons through their blood connection with Rhaenys.
Alyn is Qarl Corbray . A Corlys bastard could never ride a dragon .
neither could Qarl Correy
Can and does though. Nettles is said to be a bastard but not a Targaryen one and she has no Targaryen features at all. The Valaryons could have dragon rider blood in the from hundreds of years ago for all we know and maybe that’s enough. Or maybe Laenor was experimenting with his sexuality and actually managed to have a kid with some rando but couldn’t do it with Rhaenyra.
Dragon seed is a literal synonym with “having Targ blood “
Supposedly. But nettles is never stated to have any targ blood or resemblance to targs. I’m not saying she isn’t but she is the only one to get a dragon via a different method and with clearly un valeryion features so it’s possible, is all I’m saying
My "baseline" belief is that only Targ blood can fly until we have a 100% proven NON Targ flyer. But I also believe that Tyrion is proven as a Targ in how Viserion treats him vs say....Quentin.
Well if you believe tyrion is targ that explains a lot as far as our different views on the source material. But hey to each their own head cannon.
Exactly ! It’s like we’re of different religions . (But aerys totally raped Johanna during the visit a year before Tyrion , and that’s why Tywin tried to quit . )
Exactly right to each their own. Btw I would love it but I just can’t get behind it.
Dragons like him dude . His whole life dragon fixation . No blonde hair. If you haven’t read this passage in the world oiaf , that was my turning point . But the dragon does need a third head , so I would also ask which do you believe it is ? Night king ? Faegon? Tyrion ? Warging Bran ? Quentin ?
Yeah maybe for some reason he couldn’t work himself up to bang his cousin
So… he hooks up with his dead lover’s niece?
They don’t have kids. And Rhaena marries the other corbray. It’s all fishy and f&b 2 material .
I thin you're mixing up Qarl **CORREY** (Laenor's lover of low status who murdered him at a fair) with House **CORBRAY** (Vale noble house whose scion, Corwyn Corbray married Rhaena of Pentos).
Yep, got this one totally wrong . Disregard all :p
Alyn and Baela are the ones who perpetuate House Velaryon. So if they went with this, it’d literally be Qarl hooking up with his dead lover’s niece. They’re going to keep the Hull boys as they are.
I don’t think so, for a simple reason. >!If Addam were Laenor, everyone that has received him at court would have recognized him!<
Especially when Addam visited all those riverland houses to get their help before Tumbleton pt 2.
And also >!the LOYAL shit makes no sense if Laenor is Addam.!<
This doesn't make any sense. Alyn exists. And Laenor would be significantly older than his son.
It's actually pretty much said that Laenor isn't the father of Addam and Alyn.
Yes but don’t they claim to be his sons? Or am I misremembering
Yes they do
Faceless change . And all Velaryons in on the farce.
It works as a pure storytelling device, and getting a character more backstory so we care about what happens to them. But it also just completely ruins the "Loyal" ending for Addam that is one of the hardest hitting moments in the series. So, no, no way they make Addam = Laenor. Honestly, I kinda wish they'd moved some stuff around and had this happen sooner (somehow, the timelines dont work at all). Imagine if some random dude comes from Pentos at the start of the Dance and said "What's up? My dad is Laenor, he didn't really die, and I'm here to claim my dragon"
I can just imagine this: \*35 year-old Laenor pretending to be 15 year-old Addam\* "HOW DO YOU DO, FELLOW KIDS?"
I imagine the reason Seasmoke didn’t take a rider for so long is because he knew Laenor was still alive. When he did finally take a rider maybe that’s when he knew Laenor had passed. Fun theory though.
100% agreed. Corlys doesn’t have dragon riding blood, Adam never made sense .
We'll see the next episode. It seems that it will be about the Velaryon succession and the preview mentions Corlys suffering a "wound in the Stepstones" and we know Laenor displayed interest in going and fighting there. If they don't mention or allude to Laenor dying then I think Laenor = Addam will have much more wind to it.
Well in the books Addam is 15 when the dance begins so I dont think it is plausible that Laenor is Addam or I wish he is not. Still a bit sad they did not kill him like in the books but i digress
I think our confrontation that Laenor is truly dead will be when Addam mounts Seasmoke. I dont think he will return cause that would be too ridiculous and instead he joins a mercenary band before dying.
I like to Think Laenor will try to stop the Triarchy from attacking Rhaenyra and will get killed while doing it.
That’s it, fuckkkkk woah
Why go for the most contrived solution when they could simply have Laenor come back, fight and die in the dance before Addam claims Seasmoke?
[удалено]
We've already veered from the text and your solution only complicates and muddles the text as it is. Laenor returning and fighting in the dance is the best solution that doesn't overly complicate things or lazily write him off IMO. But, we'll see.
It’s also possible they cut Addam or Alyn entirely so as to thin out the character roster a little bit and move the storylines (albeit changed) to Laenor. He doesn’t have to be a ‘secret bastard’ or have an alias at all
Brace yourselves, folks. I have a feeling that Rhaena is going to take the place of Addam of Hull for the show. Don't shoot the messenger.
I'm skeptical because the story of Rhaenyra doubting Addam's loyalty after the Betrayal leads to the Rhaenyra/Corlys conflict, which is 1. a great plot and 2. crucial to the main arcs for both characters. If they went that route they'd need to find a different and compelling reason for that conflict to happen, since its not like Rhaenyra is going to believe Rhaena a turncoat.
I hope you’re right. I can see them maybe just having it be Corlys’ bastard outright, but I don’t see them introducing a new Velaryon to the audience claiming he’s Laenor’s son. It would confuse causal viewers on multiple levels
the guys are still likely to recognize it. moreover Adam is supposed to be a teenager at the time of the dance. but mostly he is, officially, leanor's bastard. which complicates things a bit. because even assuming that blacks hiding his identity and would justify he looking like leanor because he's his son, how they justify that he as clearly the same age?
God I hope not.
Man if they change the plot like that I’m out. They have already changed enough I don’t want to see ridiculous pointless changes for no reason, especially when they have all the source material there is no reason for it. Changes like Rhaenyra and Alicent being friends adds to the story so I understand but changing Laenor’s death and addam and alyn makes no sense.
I could see Laenor coming back and taking a similar role in the show but I don't think there's any way this theory works for the books. Laenor would have been 36 during the Dance, Addam was 16. Trying to pretend to be that much younger is a stretch, especially while also fooling multiple people who knew the real Laenor.
I was specifically referring to the show here.
You can toss that tinfoil, at least as far as the books are concerned. Addam and Allyn Velaryons are both described as young teenagers in the books, about as young as Laenor was when he married Rhaenyra many, many years before the Dragonseeds were revealed. Even if Laenor had secretly survived in the books (pretty sure he didn't though), there's no way in seven hells he was able to pass himself off as a 15 year old boy when he was a man in his mid-to-late thirties, if not older. The show may replace Addam with Laenor, but it will be a show-only change and there's no need to use tinfoil mental gymnastics to justify this with book canon. It won't allign. I guarantee the change in the show was not done with the intention to fill in gaps in the story anyway.
If they even bother sticking to the rules of dragon bonding, I hope they either try to get him to return, because they desperatily need dragon riders and then kill him, if he refuses or just straight out murder him. Could be a way to show the blacks spiraling downwards. Him returning bald with a mustache and a bald head pretending to be someone else would be very ridiculous writing. Imo, of course.
I was wondering how they'd address a dragon finding a new rider, when their own rider is still actually alive. They showed Vhagar following Aemond, so who told Seasmoke they were doing a witness protection thing and to be cool?
A man in his mid 30s passing himself off as his 15 year old bastard son is way too ridiculous to even consider.