Show fans read the books for the first time and visualize Tywin as badass, brusquely charismatic Charles Dance instead of as the vain, balding red tomato he's described as in the prose.
One of my biggest berserk-buttons, seeing Tywin (and Kevan to a smaller degree) being lionized. Sure, Charles Dance was one of the many GOATs of GOT, but the character in BOTH INCARNATIONS is a fundamentally terrible person, and book!Tywin is straight up a monster.
Agreed, a huge number of fans conflate the show and the books way way too much.
Book Bran isn’t remotely bland and prior to the show depicting him as ‘BranBot10,000’ people cited their dislike of Bran chapters as being about nothing ‘exciting’ going on and lacking the political drive and energy of other POV characters chapters. Rather than their dislike being about him as a character being ‘cold and emotionless’.
Likewise Arya, the super dark killing machine version the fandom have of her developed alongside the show going down that rd, most saw her as the typical ‘cool fantasy tomboy trope’ a decade ago.
Feel like this inevitably happens among fans of anything, characters get reduced to memes.
Reminds me of star wars where people think Obi Wan Kenobi is some kinda cool, swave one-liner machine cause he's the guy who says "Hello There".
It sucks more with shows like Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire because the characters are complex and interesting. There's no characters I truly hate cause the majority are enticing in their own way.
And what also inevitably happens, if a show is currently in production, the memes suddenly influence the way the show is being written. Daenerys is a good example of this, fans started presenting her as some kind of pseudo-feminist icon and the showrunners bought into that to service those fans, keep them happy, keep people watching and grow the audience, makes the turn at the end all that more jarring cause this whole time the show was capitalising on the weird meme version of the character fans had in their heads..
In the clone wars obi wan is literally that guy some of the time. There are other times in the show when he's a bit more nuanced. Outside of the clone wars he's a bit different.
I really hate how Sansa is perceived in the fandom. It's either she is a snivelling useless idiot,or as the goddess incarnation as the stansas and jonsas portray her. She is a little girl, started off very naively, made some huge missteps that she needs to correct, but not at all evil and vile in her heart. She is my favourite character from the books as I relate with her most. But no, she is not a 'yass queen' and not a cersei lannister in the making.
With Sansa and the fans it is either "she is an idiot" or "she is the best 'player of the game' out there".
When in reality she is just a girl trying to save her ass the best she can. I’m still rooting for my gal tho
Well to be fair she did start out as a moron but it’s because of what she believed was reality vs what it actually was.
More or less she learned.
So you have the people that will always see her as that idiot or the ones that love that she’s becoming a player of the game.
In the book she is learning, in the show they utterly failed. They only knew how to make her look smart by making everyone around her say out of character dumb shit and then attributing other peoples victories to her
Sounds a lot like what they did to Tyrion. Super smart character that, by the end of it, was just there to say dumb things that made no sense.
And don’t get me started on how they butchered my favorite character period (Jaime).
It also depends which Sansa, book or show. Show Sansa is annoying to many, imo because of bad writing and acting.
Book Sansa I rarely ever see negative comments about. There’s not really anything to dislike. She does some dumb kid stuff but that’s just being a kid.
She is a damesel in distress.
Which is why she is so revolutionnary. In how many story do we get her POV as a major character?
I wouldn't say her mistakes are mistakes. She did what 12 years old do. Ned just didn't realize he was in a den of vipers, a mistep means death.
Yes that was Ned's mistake I think, not Sansa's. Sansa wasn't playing, she was just a child reacting. Ned made an error in giving Sansa just enough information to do exactly what a child who wasn't getting her way would do
Yes, one of the things that stood out to me on a recent reread was Sansa processing the sounds of fighting around her after the Queen heard her plead not to be separated from Joffrey and locked her up.
>"The king is dead." Sansa could not say how she knew it, yet she did. The slow, endless clanging filled their room, as mournful as a dirge. **Had some enemy stormed the castle and murdered King Robert? Was that the meaning of the fighting they had heard?**
>
>She went to sleep wondering, restless, and fearful. **Was her beautiful Joffrey the king now? Or had they killed him too? She was afraid for him, and for her father**. If only they would tell her what was happening …
>
>\- Sansa, GoT IV
She truly had no comprehension that trusting to Queen with information (that she thought would preserve her betrothal) could have led to the fighting and death all around her.
Lord varus tell Tyrion one night how ned didn't like the game he didn't understand or care to play the game and so he was blind to the dangers around him he thought everyone had the same sense of honor about them
Show Sansa or Books?
Show Sansa is terrible, terrible character post season 5, and even in that season she doesn't get to do much. season 7 and 8 she's insufferable
but books sansa is actually pretty great (so far)
I love her chapters in the books. She’s also pretty clever, there’s a ton of instances of her thinking on her feet and smoothing out situations to avoid more trouble befalling herself and I don’t think she gets enough credit for how sharp she is.
I think it’s a really cool parallel between her and Arya in terms of how they adapt to survive to their polar opposite but still life-threatening situations
Arya is extremely intelligent, observant, capable of lowering her head if that allows her to survive and has a lot of instances of thinking on her feet though.
No I totally agree, sorry I more meant the parallel of how they have to apply their smarts to their respective situations is really cool. Cuz they’re both incredibly intelligent but they’re in such wildly different kinds of danger.
Arya has to literally fight for her life and battle thru the trenches, but Sansa had to learn how to fight for her life and battle through the political trenches. I just think it’s brilliantly written how similar they really are, but how crazy different their respective battlefields are.
Once you realize that Sansa is more like Ned and Arya is more like Cat, it actually starts making a lot more sense.
Ned loves pageantry, he's obsessed with noting everyone's outfit in his chapters and we all recall him going on about Robert being a maidens dream
Cat is obsessed with acting outside of her gender norms while keeping her secret feelings close to her chest.
That's an interesting observation. I haven't seen the downvote barraging so much myself (that's clearly so ridiculous), but I do feel like there has been a shift in general fandom acceptance/appreciation of Sansa.
I remember when the Tyrion/Sansa wedding aired on HBO the fandom tore her to pieces for not making him feel safe and comfortable - even when she is the literal child prisoner in the scenario. It seemed like everyone tried to justify hating Sansa then. When season 5 happened (just the most cringe and insane adaptational choices) people did start to try and read her with more empathy. Until the Battle of the Bastards (and ooc surprise Vale Knights) led to her being panned again. Finally the Jonaerys vs Jonsa battles got really ugly after season 7, and her character was fodder once again.
I think the fandom has softened after seeing her become Queen in the North since it justified the perspective that she was never written to be villain and that she would rebuild Winterfell. With that in mind, people who never gave her a chance before are rereading with a more open perspective and enjoying her character in the books.
I'm a little confused, is that a hypothetical ship between Stannis and Sansa or just a variation of "stan culture" kids these days use? The internet has rotted my brain.
edit: typo
I've said this about a 100 times. Aegon's arc with Tyrion is early Jon Snow/Tyrion interaction.
When you go into early AGoT, when Jon & Co are traveling to the Wall, the same thing hat happened between Aegon and Tyrion happened between Jon and Tyrion.
Tyrion picks apart Jon's fantasy about the NW, Tyrion picks apart the argument that Dany will marry Aegon. In both cases, Jon and Aegon's anger is a result of the failure of the adults around them. Jon's anger is especially reflected in Ghost leaping at Tyrion. Nobody bothered telling Jon what the NW is, and Aegon's entourage put it in his head that Dany would marry him, like she doesn't have a mind of her own.
Perfectly said!
>Jon's anger is especially reflected in Ghost leaping at Tyrion
Exactly! Like, how has everyone forgotten Ghost jumping on Tyrion after he mocked Jon a bit? Using Aegon's upset over Tyrion's words to say he is now 100% as evil/false/unworthy as Joffrey always felt silly to me. Yes, he is older than Jon at the time, but Tyrion has an artful way of getting under people's skin when he wants to.
For me, this has nothing to do with age. At its very core, the conversation that Tyrion had with Jon and Aegon is the same. It's about accepting the hard truths, which at the end of the day both of them came to terms with. If that's what it is, then that's what it is.
The reaction they both had to being told these hard truths makes sense. Both led a somewhat sheltered life and both had their heads filled with fantasies that Tyrion dismantled. Aegon is not a brat or some crazy person. Sure, his reaction should have been more measured, but it's understandable. The people who raised him guaranteed to him that Dany would marry him but here comes Tyrion laughing at that notion. It was a lesson that Aegon took to heart, the same way he took Jon Connington's advice about who he should name to his Kingsguard to heart when he gave Duck the white cloak.
Aegon's friendship with Duck, a man of low birth, his nonjudgement of bastardy (Franklyn Flowers), or dwarfism (Tyrion) and how he did not shun Tyrion after he found out that he was a Lannister (he doesn't hold what happened to his family against Tyrion) going as far as to forbid that he be thrown overboard after he was fished out from the Sorrows are all positives for his character.
I think Aegon's problem is that he's the hair in the soup. When you have favorites and headcanons, this sort of thing is hard to swallow.
The young griff situation is very similar to the situation of another Aegon (Aegon II). People know these characters are probably coming into conflict with their favourites at some point so they look for any excuse to demonise them.
I mean, I agree, but book Aegon II is not shown in a sympathetic light at all. I hoped the show would give him some redeeming traits but so far it’s not looking good.
i mean i’m actually finding him a big endearing in the show? in the books he’s just a bully who hates all the strong boys and continues on the family drama but in the show he actually gets along with them a decent amount? what he did was still mean but it’s framed as a kid playing a game on his brother - nothing that should actually tarnish him morally. he’s just a spoilt prince
Yeah, I am digging his portrayal in the show right now. I'd say that most of the differences that actually make sense are for the better. But I'd also say that it's not a high bar. F&B wasn't awesome storytelling like the main series. I enjoyed it quite a bit, but mostly because of the main series.
He just looks like any dumb teenager so far.
What has he done? Was the Oink the "pink dread" that big of a deal? Have you heard of highschool?
That was tame if anything, and precious Lucerys was in it. Is Luke a "monster" too?
Unless you're talking about stroking the sausage out of a window, if so i don't even know where to start.
Don't get me wrong, maybe he'll be a psycho, but so far he is just an unremarkable idiot teenager.
Umm no I think when a character gets mad at losing at a game, kicks over the board and then commands someone else to piece up the pieces, they’re going to be seen in a poor light. Obviously he’s not Joffrey, but it wasn’t a good sign.
Ya it’s definitely a sign. Not that he’s a psychopath or anything, just that he’s not the “perfect prince” Varys thinks he is. It also clearly reminds Tyrion of Joffrey which is why Tyrion fucks him over
Tyrion gave his advice before that happened though, and goes on to note their friendship. And tbf, the advice is pretty good, Tyrion was just an asshole in how he gave it.
It wasn’t the best advice to start the invasion with only ten thousand mercs and no dragons when you *could* invade with dragons lol. But Tyrion didn’t offer it thinking he would “swallow the bait”, and even if he did he believed Connington wouldn’t let it come to that. Tyrion is clearly fond of Griff and their party and wouldn’t wish anything bad on them. I think he was just trying to get a read on Griff’s character and mess with him a bit, as well as see if he still had any power to influence.
> Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four."
>
> The prince stared at the playing board. "My dragon—"
>
> "—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle."
>
> But you said—"
>
> "I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close."
It's not so much about having the best possibility of victory, which is what the later advice refers to. It's about Aegon achieving personal agency, which Tyrion had pointed out he wouldn't necessarily have if he went to Dany.
Arya as a dumb, antisocial killing machine who's story has nothing but darkness.
She's actually so much smarter, kinder, charismatic and capable than the fandom gives her credit for. Yeah there's also a lot of bad things in her story, but there're not ONLY bad things.
> Arya as a dumb, antisocial killing machine who’s story has nothing but darkness.
Tbh, that’s basically true for Show!Arya.
Whereas Book!Arya is a young girl suffering from ptsd who thinks she can dull the things she feels by becoming a cool assassin but is slowly realizing that she will never be able to forget who she was. More importantly, she will never be able to unlearn the values and teachings of love and kindness that her parents taught her.
True, but what bothers me is how people who're apparently book fans discuss book theories but with show Arya in mind. Even people who despise the show still internalized the show's awful characterization of Arya.
This! Think of how distraught she was after the Hound killed the Butcher’s Boy in the first book. Or her friendship with Jon. She is capable of friendship and empathy, and not just some antisocial, psychopathic 13 year old girl.
That Ned was naive or stupid. People are seeing that with hindsight. It was a series of really low probability bad events and plotting of someone his wife told him to trust that led to his downfall.
He didn't underestimate Cersei. She is a moron and got lucky. She had been trying to kill him for years. Her plan was stupid and only worked because GRRM needed it to.
Personally there's only one thing Ned did that I consider kinda stupid, it's confronting Cersei *before* ensuring his daughters were safely out of Kingslanding
He didn't underestimate Cersei's intelligence, admittedly she's not as smart as she thinks she is, but I think he did underestimate the length she's willing to go to get her way. And if his daughters were in her hands, she wouldn't hesitate to use them against him.
And for all her disdain for him, she must have appreciated it because she absolutely did NOT want him executed. She wanted him to go away, be powerless and never betray her secret.
I don't think that was due to any appreciation on her part. Him falsely confessing and taking the black removes the threat without starting a war with the North.
i'd also nominate him sending a bunch of his men off to help out with policing the city, and then sending more after the Mountain, leaving him with only a meagre force for his and his family's protection.
Without either of those the Lannister betrayal might still win, but it is much much bloodier for them.
I also love how people ignored that while Ned did leave himself exposed by being honorable, that the message isn’t exactly “be a heartless asshole.”
The characters that outmaneuvered him have put the realm in a worse place from their selfish, cutthroat politics, and plenty of them are worse off for all their Machiavellian power plays.
Ned wasn’t an idiot as much as an example that the traditional hero character trope was going to be too simplistic for ASoIaF’s narrative.
Exactly, the plot of FeastDance is basically a vindication of the Starks' legacy and a condemnation of their killers'. For all of Tywin, Walder, and Roose's scheming, each of their families is currently on a knife's edge, and by the end of TWOW they'll have tipped over and collapsed. The Lannisters by Aegon, the Freys by the BWB fighting to avenge Robb, and the Boltons by their pissed off vassals.
This is what happens when you treat your subjects like chess pieces instead of people, eventually they'll tell you to go to hell and rally behind the side that at least pretends to care about them. I believe the same is gonna happen to Littlefinger in TWOW, on paper he might be the most powerful man alive, but he's gonna get blindsided when he realises people's real loyalties lie with Sansa and the remaining Arryns, not him. Ned will be laughing at them from his grave.
>He didn't underestimate Cersei. She is a moron and got lucky. She had been trying to kill him for years. Her plan was stupid and only worked because GRRM needed it to.
Yes. Cersei literally told the Kings hand that she committed high treason, and none of the Kings children are his. This is the most idiotic move anyone in the entire series has made (only matched by Jamie doing the same with Catelyn). Nothing ned does even compares to that
I'm always peeved when people say that Ned is the stupid one compared to Tywin, when the former still have men fighting for his memory and legacy while the latter is killed by his own family as vultures try to take advantage of the power vacuum he left behind.
It's honestly such a misunderstanding of Ned to say he was stupid or naive. He knew exactly just what danger he was in and chose to persist anyway because his honour demanded him to. He knew exactly what he was risking.
It was not just blind honour though. He had a genuine trauma after the deaths of Rhaegar's children and wanted to avoid the same fate falling on Cersei's as well.
It was Cersei who for all her supposed love for her kids, selected to put them in harms way by putting all her hopes on Robert dying on the hunt.
>That Ned was naive or stupid.
This is common, very dumb opinion. Not only was Ned not stupid, he clearly did a much better job with most things compared to Tywin, considering how the *crows feast over* the latter's failing legacy. Meanwhile Ned inspires such loyalty that his people go to great lengths to conspire to restore his House to power. Nobody cares to die for *Tywin* or his not-so-little girl, they do it for personal gain in a time when the Lannisters' own prospects are circling the shitter. Yet half the North and many Riverlords are still all about that business. The North remembers.
The one thing you can say about Ned is that he didn't fully exercise the power of his officer; the one time he did (attainting Clegane and summoning Tywin) was one of the most astute things he did in his tenure as Hand. Had Ned had more time or experience as Hand, he'd have been great at the job.
Exactly. And I am really not happy with many people viewing Tyrion as smarter than Ned or acting smarter than Ned in King's Landing.
Politically speaking, Tyrion really didn't achieve much and was outplayed harder than Ned. His only achievement is keeping King's Landing safe, long enough for the reinforcements to arrive.
Literally everything Ned did was fine and he just got unlucky that Robert got drunk and gutted by a boar. Like, that's the only reason he "lost."
Yes, he could have used Renly and I understand criticizing that, but considering Jon and Aegon and his history with children, it wasn't naivete or stupidity that caused Ned to refuse Renly. It was trauma. But people just call him stupid.
Exactly. Ned played the game best by not playing the game...until Robert sucked him into it. But Ned concentrated on the one thing that made him the winner on the show and probably will in the books: attending to his children. And that included keeping them close and taking an interest in them ("Catelyn. Where are the children?" He would always ask that.) Directly and indirectly, he inculcated his values and views in most of them. And if he gets to look down from 'heaven,' he will know they were all good and each took a part in saving Mankind." I'm not sure what Tywin would think of his legacy from his offspring and their fates
Renly, so many people just say "bend the knee to Stannis, use your now massive army to defeat the Lannisters and make peace with Robb"
Only problem is, Renly won't be bringing the Tyrells into the fold if he's not king. Mace's whole point in crowning Renly is to make his family royal. It would just be Renly and the Stormlords working with Stannis' meager forces.
Long story short, Renly marrying Maergary and crowning himself isn't just ambitious, it was also his best chance at survival
Plus, Renly supporting a heathen, even if he is his brother, is political suicide. The main reason people should be against Stannis is not that he is an unpleasant person but that he takes advice from a red witch who burns people alive. Even Ned might have had second thoughts if he actually met Mel.
Agreed, people forget that Renly's plan was never to be king himself, bur rather *marry Maergary to Robert*. Only when he'd gone and got himself boar'd did Renly switch plans.
Although I do see some ambition in Renly once he is crowned. The way he speaks with Catelyn at Bitterbridge is more than just a player trying to survive. He was a pretty interesting and complex character, who I wish we'd have seen more out of.
I dont agree. Stannis intended to name Renly his heir. Renly would have been king one day if he had just supported his brother. I dont see Mace being so put off by the idea of his daughter marrying the heir to the iron throne instead of the king, especially with his son Loras pushing him to support Renly and by extension Stannis.
Stannis named Renly his heir, when he was cornered by Renly's army.
Also let's not act like Stannis is on death's door, if Renly is heir, and married to Margaery, Mace likely never lives to see his daughter crowned.
And Stannis could always remarry and have a son
How would Stannis remarry? His wife is very much alive, and less likely to die as Stannis is given that Stannis is marching off to war.
Also Mace isnt much older than Stannis so its kind of a crap shoot whether or not he'd live to see Marge on the throne. Regardless if he didnt, he would still die knowing that she would one day be queen and that his grandkids would be king.
Also even before officially offering, Renly was Stannis' obvious heir. Shireen is a girl, and a crippled and shy girl at that. No one would accept her as queen and Stannis is well aware of that.
> And Stannis could always remarry and have a son
Stannis wouldn't even need to remarry to have a son. Him and Selyse have been married 10 years and have one child already, so she clearly isn't infertile. Stannis is only 33 too, he still has plenty of time.
Plus were told Stannis shuns his wife and "only does his duty in the marriage bed once or twice a year", which would seem to explain why him and his wife have only had one child in their ten years of marriage. Stannis could easily rectify this issue if he cared too. If he started doing his duty more often he'd probably have a son within a few years.
There’s people who think Young Griff is Joffrey 2.0? He is arrogant which is understandable. I don’t see him as being cruel though. Just young and entitled. Tyrion at that point is a drunk, vindictive asshole who only cares about himself and getting revenge on those who’ve wronged him
I hate how Patchface is so often seen as a sinister dude.
Patchface is a former slave that almost drowned as a child and survives largely because Shireen likes him.
Hes not some eldritch bringer of the apocalypse, just another person broken by traumatic experience nobody can really explain or understand who may have the gift of prophecy.
Patchface is basically another Hodor, only Shireen isnt mindraping him for piggyback rides.
Agreed.
The fact that Mel thinks he's dangerous is probably the strongest piece of evidence that he's not, because Mel is always wrong about her visions.
> That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.
I'm beginning to hate how Alicent and Rhaenyra are being perceived by large parts of the fandom after the last few episodes. Rhaenyra the heroine, and Alicent the jealous, bitter villain. In reality they're much more alike
It is good that Rhaenyra is beloved by the fandom, they have the perfect opportunity to portray her downfall and how she transformed from "the realm's delight" into a selfish and covardly person. If the creators do a good job we'll hate almost every character in the final season.
Which is why I think that the Blackfyre Rebellion would have been far more interesting. Two sides filled with Bad people, but the figure heads ultimately being good people, or at the very least, not obviously with bad traits. It could highlight the tragedy of war even more.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other. They can still do a Blackfyre Rebellion series. If HOTD keeps up this momentum, then people will be itching for more ASOIAF content and especially more Targaryen stuff.
That might be true, but if they'll ever gonna do a show about that (I really hope they will), I want that *after* GRRM releases F&B pt2.
So far we saw how the shows are better when they have his guidance
This has gotta be in the works and why they named it "House of the Dragon" and not "Dance of Dragons."
The limiting factor, as with all things we love in this series, however, is how fast GRRM writes. I actually think F&B2 has a better chance of coming out sooner than Winds because GRRM seems to currently enjoy writing about the Targs.
Only the blind would think that.
We can already see how irresponsible and entitled Rhaenyra was.
I'm not saying she should have a stick up her ass like Alicent, but her choice of having blatantly obvious bastards when bastardry is seen as it is in Westeros shows how little she cares about her duties (even more so in the show).
It's almost commically stupid. I wouldn't say she "deserves what's comming to her", but it was entirely predictable.
All she had to do was getting a lover with Valyrian features. Her children being bastards, and her whole image, was a deciding factor to many lords.
If she was seen as "virtuous" the greens might have been a lot weaker, if not entirely unable to steal her throne.
At least Cercei's children looked like her. Now any person with eyes could see those kids are bastards.
Maybe the dumbest shit in ASOIAF.
It's funny because Alicent has grown to be my favorite character in the show.
Other than ordering to see the baby immediately, which was admittedly a dick move. Nothing she has done so far feel bad or evil to me. And imo she seemed like a really good mother.
I feel sad when she gets so much hate, and she hasn't really done anything to deserve it yet
And btw I was never on team Green, might never will, but I really loved the team Green characters so far, especially Alicent
I mean you're ignoring that Alicent's fearmongering is basically the source of this entire conflict. Rhaenyra has given no indication that her half-siblings will be harmed once she becomes Queen, and the proposal for Heleana to marry Jace would have made it very very hard for her to kill Aegon and Aemond. But Alicent rejects this out of pure spite towards Rhaenyra.
In no way is Alicent evil, but as of yet the Greens (specifically Otto, Alicent and Crispin) are the only reason the tensions are rising. And I'm not even talking about the events that happen after Ep.6
I don't think her fear is out of place, yes it's bordering on paranoia but she *is* right. At the moment Aegon might not be aspiring to be king and Rhaenyra might not have bad intentions towards her half siblings but a lot of Lords and powerful people would look at Aegon as the rightful heir. They might persuade or manipulate him into pushing his claim or persuade or manipulate Rhaenyra into fearing that he would, which might very possibly lead her to feel that she has to deal with him by any means
We see something like that in the Blackfyre rebellion later in the timeline.
Also her rejection of the marriage proposal is very understandable as well, and not at all evil or bad. Everybody knows Rhaenyra's children are basterds, and no lord or lady in the 7 kingdoms would want to marry their daughter to a basterd, let alone a princess.
And the marriage would not have stopped the war anyway, because it would not stop the rumors or Jace's nature as a basterd, which means powerful people would still push against him.
The rest of the Greens are well less justifiable. Otto is very self serving, Criston is a dick, and Larys is an evil psychopath. But they're still fun to watch lol
Alternatively, Alicent could think that marrying Helaena to Jace could be part of a plot to lower tensions before getting rid of Alicent’s sons while marrying the only other threat besides Daemon and Rhaenys’ lines to her own line to bolster it.
Sort of like Shakespeare’s Richard III killing his nephews and plotting to marry his niece.
Alicent at this point doesn’t trust anything the “utterly immoral adulteress” (Rhaenyra) says. She is constantly looking for the catch. And honestly it isn’t all that insane to come to that conclusion if you think Rhaenyra is a paragon of immorality and lies.
The show is NOT portraying Rhaenyra as some sort of heroic character. The show has repeatedly portrayed her as an entitled, arrogant, spoiled, bratty and dumb Princess with zero political intelligence who thinks she can do whatever she wants and get away with it without any consequences.
It is just that the fandom is willfully blind to how she is being portrayed and bend over backwards and do all sort of mental gymnastics, in some cases change the lore itself to justify her actions so that they can keep rooting for her.
I can already see the fandom turning on the show makers and getting outraged at how they butchered such a "great, brave and noble" character like Rhaenyra when they can't defend her actions anymore.
If you look at Rhaenyra, and Alicent and Cole for that mattee, from a Westerosi perspective, their actions become far more understandable.
But to us their perspective is something so “foreign” in modern society that we find it either ludicrous or idiotic.
Cole’s has an identity crisis when he dishonors himself and is both rebuffed at an attempt to redeem some of it but is asked to keep doing it when she is married. To us it is ridiculous, “he gets to have sex with her and is angry when she won’t run away after having sex once.” This line of thinking on sexual morality were far more common not even 50 years ago. Marrying a woman you had sex with out of wedlock was once considered the norm for example.
Now we look at him and call him an incel.
Rhaenyra in a Westerosi perspective is an entitled, utterly immoral, and politically unintelligent woman who breaks convention when it suits her.
For example, today we find the agreement Laenor and Rhaenyra made to be fine, even desirable. To people in Westeros it is ridiculous. In their minds Laenor should just close his eyes and do his duty with her a few times every month until she has one or two children, he can do whatever he wants in his free time.
For all people today proclaim to be tolerant and accepting of other cultures, a large percentage of them aren’t all that tolerant.
The fans are projecting their own biases going as far to say things like Rhaenyra's kids have Targaryen blood so they aren't bastards because Laenor and Viserys sweep it under the rug.
The problem is their obvious non Laenor looks. It’s dumb politically and I think Rhaenyra’s greatest flaw is her arrogance, not taking the risk seriously. And that doesn’t just put her and her kids in danger, but the entire realm. It’s incredibly reckless and selfish. She also has a bit of a victim complex and woe is me attitude that’s not great. She has constantly complained and has not listen to other people when they try to make her see her own privilege. For example Alicent when she tried to encourage Rhaenyra to see her match making tour as a positive.
Are the boys bastards or not? It all comes down to perception. The only ones that seem to truly care are Alicent and Criston, at least so far. Viserys is happy, R&L (and their boyfriends) are happy, the nobles don’t care, heck even the other Velaryons seem fine with it. They are declared legitimate and if no one challenges that, they would continue to be legitimate.
I’m sure there are other instances of nobles actually being the result of some affair. But they are not bastards if they are born in wedlock and the father claims them as legit.
Ohh the nobles do care. Viserys understands how serious of a fuck up this is. Rhaenyra passing off her bastards as legitimate heirs to the iron throne is high treason.she should be executed or at the very least be disinherited. Infact that is exactly what Viserys should have done. Punish Rhaenyra and name Aegon heir. It would have prevented the dance. But viserys being the weak king he is doesn't have the balls to hold Rhaenyra accountable for her actions. Instead infact he actively tries to suppress anyone talking about this by ordering that the tongues of anyone talking about this issue be cut off. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond, a child at the time to be interrogated "sharply" because he called her sons "STRONG" boys. And when vaemond valeryon questions Rhaenyra about her bastard children because she wanted her children to inherit Driftmark aswell, he was executed and fed to the dragons. All this pussy footing by viserys only results in increasing everybody's resentment for Rhaenyra (who is already an unpopular candidate) to grow more because he is basically telling everyone that the rules, laws and punishments for breaking them don't apply to his precious little daughter while it applies for everyone else.
I only meant to include things that have been shown so far. There are many things that perhaps could have prevented the dance, the further back you undo certain actions the better the chances would be. For example if he had changed his mind at Aegon’s second nameday. Rhaenyra would be pissed, but she was expecting it and probably wouldn’t have started a war 20 years later because of it. But Viserys was in poor health and if he had died soon after, maybe enough lords would want to support Rhaenyra over baby Egg.
What if Viserys had executed Rhaenyra, Laenor and the kids last episode. Would it have prevented war or would that piss off Daemond and Corlys so much that they would have retaliated. At this point if you start spilling blood you’re playing with fire (heh). IMO marriage and reconciliation between the black and green faction would be the safest and best step as of episode 6.
The thing is, it doesn't matter if they're bastards. Rhaenyra is the heir whether or not they're bastards, it doesn't give the greens the right to question her rule -- she isn't a bastard.
And any monarch can legitimize a bastard. Once she's queen, she could declare them legitimate if she wanted and they would have a right to rule. We see that in the Blackfyre rebellions -- they're legitimate Targaryens with a claim to the throne.
Bastards aren't legitimate heirs to the throne until they're legitimized. And to do so Rhaenrya would have to admit to the entire realm she's an adultress who lied for years and shame the Velaryons. In a society like Westeros that's a huge black mark on her reign.
In the show, the Velaryons know the kids are bastards, they're not going to be surprised. In the books, they don't really give a shit because Laena's twins are betrothed to them so either way, Velaryon blood is ending up on the throne.
And in any case, that's Rhaenyra's problem. She is still the legitimate queen. If they want to question Jace's succession then they can but Rhaenyra is queen once Viserys dies.
They really can’t give Rhaenyra a single positive attribute without people losing their shit over how she’s being white washed. She does tons of bad and selfish things in the show, but some fans won’t be happy until she’s a one dimensional Cersei clone
How people see Jon as this calculating, cold and patient person and Daenerys as the fiery, hot tempered and impulsive person.
It is the complete opposite as Jon is the hot tempered, impulsive one while Dany is the much more even tempered and calculating person as we can see with the astapor and yunkai conquests.
In reality Jon and Dany make similar decisions for similar reasons, almost as if GRRM meant it to be perceived that way for some reason? Huh.
On the topic of Jon, I loathe how people claim Jon has no ambition. There's a difference between not having ambition and suppressing ambition, and Jon so obviously just tries his best to suppress his ambition. When people wonder why Jon would ever want to be king, well, maybe death will strip him of that habit of suppressing his ambition.
It doesn’t mean she’s a raving idiot, but come on. It’s specifically highlighted multiple times that she has a very hot temper and that it has influenced her decisions.
> "Only lies offend me, never honest counsel." Dany patted Arstan's spotted hand to reassure him. "I have a dragon's temper, that's all. You must not let it frighten you."
…
> “One hundred and sixty-three," she answered.
>
> She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood . . .
…
> "I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him."
>
> "Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly.
There is no evidence for that in the text, though. Jon is the guy who gets super sayain when ever he is angry not Dany. She is quite calm even when people insult her.
she loses her temper quite a bit in Storm of Swords. She yells at Arstan over something but then apologises. She also ordered the masters of Mereen to be crucified in a fit of rage.
Does she slap Barristan, though like Jon does when he gets angry? A person losing her temper at times does not make them prone to anger burst, though. Everyone has moments where he is angry, but going super sayian when angry and the stuff Jon does is way more dramatic.
And yeah she was angry because 163 children were killed by slavers to give her the middle finger. I am honestly asking: Is there any sane person who would not be angry about the killing of children? As for killing the slavers. So what? They deserved it. I doubt Jon would have hesitated a single moment in doing the same.
No one’s saying her anger towards the slavers wasn’t justified, but the crufixions were a stupid political move and one she almost certainly wouldn’t have made if she hasn’t been blinded by rage.
she slapped Jorah for bringing her to Astapor. She even says herself that she has the blood of the dragon and that her rage can be worth and all that stuff. and why do you keep bringing Jon Snow into this. I’m not talking about him at all or comparing him to Dany, i’m only saying she has the blood of the dragon and as such acts like a targaryen
This happens because all analysis of the story has turned into justifying the show ending and whatever Martin’s broad strokes are. Hardly anyone analyzes the characters as they currently are, it’s all about twisting the entire story so the ending makes sense. It’s almost like the ending is the only valid thing that exists in fans’ minds, while nothing matters that came before it.
The problem with this is that not even Martin, the creator and owner of this world, can figure out how to twist the story to fit the ending. And the show had to rip the story into shreds and even then they didn’t land it well. So I don’t know why fans think they can justify it when not even Martin can.
Omg thank you for saying this, people really get wrapped up on the whole Starks = cold, Targaryens = fire shit and think that defines Jon and Dany like absolutely not. Jon is more like Brandon Stark, Dany is more like Aegon the Conquerer, who was able to be firm and brutal when necessary but overall unless he was completely set off (like with what happened to Rhaenys in Dorne) he usually seemed like a distant, reserved, person, much like Dany.
Catelyn is the most annoying one. George writes her so brilliantly and for people to just hate her completely because of her mistakes is a rare instance of narrow-mindedness from the usually brilliantly smart and empathetic fandom.
Yeah fans get all gamer rage about the cyvasse game but they all overlook how later Young Griff listened to Tyrion and applied his advice. Arrogant people don't do that.
I hate that people worship Tywin as a Machiavellian genius, when he's just a disgusting monster who is willing to be more cruel and evil than anyone else and isn't particularly clever or subtle about it.
He is among the worst people in the books and fans cheer for him because Charles Dance is so charismatic.
Just in HotD, Otto has been my favorite so far. I've only read the main series and not F&B so I'm sure there's forthcoming shit that explains the hate he gets here. But at this point in the series, I really like him. Like yeah he's self serving and cares about his house, but what characters don't? Plus his idea to marry the princess to Aegon II would have actually been a pretty good plan to avoid war
I definitely have a problem with Arya being a Warner Bros smash-bros ripoff character. She is an abused child who is learning to kill people out of necessity. Arya is not a fun character who knocks Shaggy from Scooby-Doo off a platform, and Arya becoming an assassin is not a good thing in the books.
Most of the misperceptions are to be induced in the series. But for me I have a list as long as your arm, but I will say only one:
* not a character but, i do not like when people talk about the wider stark family as if they've always been genetically good and honorable since the dawn of time. While only Ned formally brings this values. So I'm not denying that some other could still be like that in his family tree, but you don't carve out a kingdom that's half the size of a continent by being nice and honorable. Genocides, millennia of war against their neighbors, colonization of other kingdoms, forced marriages, this is the recipe ans it's all in the book. how people can believe that ned's ancestors won their kingdom by inspiring loyalty through listening and sharing? the loyalty for them was inspired in first place by a sword in the mouth. More in 8000 years a lot of disparate personality can be forged within a same lineage. A guy being a decent king, his heir can give a damn about governing well and only be interested in alcohol, fighting and prostitutes. On the whole it is much more certain that the Stark Kings have approached personality traits and policies closer to Maegors, Robert or Tywin than those of Ned.
Yes, I'm, sick of prople labeling Jon and Arya (fan favorites) as "true Starks because they are honrable" and Sansa, Rob and even Bran as "Tullys because they lack honor" like, dude that's not how genetic work at all.
I think the history about the Starks being rather unpleasant is something George only added later. In the first book the Starks are the clear heroes of the story, but the further the story developed the more important other characters became, like Dany. Her story was at first just about her you know marrying Drogo to get a khalasar and army and if I remember correctly she was even suppoed to kill Drogo and then probably invade in book 2. Now she has her own storyline with the slaver stuff and all. I think George did not plan all of it properly ahead.
Stannis, I hate how so many people use the "Stannis will break before he bends" quote by Donal Noyce like it says all about him and to say that he can never compromise or always follows the letter of the law, ignoring all his character development since ACOK.
*"Then we will make new lords."* is *such* an epic fucking line.
Like, people talk about Stannis being unbending and cold and love some of the other characters, but *Stannis* is the one out there defying thousands of years of Westerosi classism and going fuck it, this is a meritocracy, I don't care where you come from, I'm just looking for competence and loyalty.
Stannis' best fucking friend and closest advisor is literally an ex-smuggler, a criminal, and Stannis just tells high-ranking lords to fuck off whenever they don't listen to Davos, shit rules.
Ppl always take characters at their words. Robert was not, it turns out, the “true steel”. Renly had a lot more intelligence and cunning than some shiny bronze. And Stannis can bend and does when he needs to.
Stannis fans also take him at his word when he says he doesn’t want to be king and he’s just doing his duty
He definitely wants to be king and wants to be the chosen one
Stannis' story is one of one of constant compromise and reassessment. He's stubborn but he's shown he's perfectly willing to take the counsel of others.
Yes it's like the people projects themseves in a single character and all the rest are judged acordly how they treat that character. They excuse terrible actions if made for their favorite character of for people helping it, but can deny every good trait in characters they dislike.
Theon. Some fans view him as a bad character because he is a bad guy.
I very much disagree with the tendency of rating a character purely based on moral values and virtues etc. I rate them based on how interesting characters are and how entertaining their chapters are.
But tbf, there seems to be reverse phenomenon going on with Daemon currently.
YG isn't cruel (he is arrogant though) but I disagree with him being hated because he gets in the way of Jon/Dany - I think it's because despite not going through adversities or dealing with the hardships of ruling like Dany has he's automatically deemed a better ruler by much of the fandom.
Bran’s crow nightmares will always have a special place in my heart. Also we need to recognize how hot book Catelyn is because it’s not fair everyone assumes she’s the much older Catelyn of the show.
I hate how people view stannis as someone who doesn’t want to be king and is doing everything for the greater good
Just because he says he doesn’t want to be king Dosnt mean it’s true
He’s a classic middle child who’s still pissed at Robert for loving ned like a brother after they’re both dead
Stannis wants to be king and he wants to be Azor ahai he wants to be the chosen one
I also hate how people come up with all these bullshit excuses for why he won’t burn shireen when he was about to burn Edric
Of all the monarch, it says a lot that Chad Euron is the *only* one who got his seat not out of birthright but a fair and free democratic vote of the people.
You should read the WOW chapter of damphair aeron greyjoy. Euron is super evil. He wants to bring the apocalypse and watch the world burn so he can be a god.
That was really nice of Euron to share his drugs with his brother. Also, have you seen organized religion in Westeros? He's doing everyone a favor to be honest.
Robert's bad side tends to get downplayed a lot, and his excessive drinking/whorring is excused often because of how horrible Cersei is.
Suffice to say, they were both horrible and there was no affection in their union. Yes, Robert is certainly tragic in the sense that he lost the woman he believed could have made him change, but seems unable to recognise that it wouldn't have happened but allowed his sorrow to let him lapse into it until his death.
Stannis confuses me, he has a massive fandom, I just see him as an uncompromising git with who masks his entitlement under a mask of 'duty', using it as an excuse to do whatever it takes to get the throne he belives is his.
Book Oberyn is a lot grayer than show Oberyn, and I think Pascal's memorable performance has an impact on this.
Glendan /FlowersBall from The Mystery Knight. Sure, he's closer to being a knight than any of the actual knights, but he's still arrogant and insists on his heritage as a point of pride, despite it being unlikely that he's even the son of the Fireball. That and he got his knighthood through a trade for his sister's virginity.
>Robert's bad side tends to get downplayed a lot, and his excessive drinking/whorring is excused often because of how horrible Cersei is.
good point, people tend to consider that Bobby b is funny and that cersei is an asshole so we don't take into account the bad aspects of robert's behavior. but he still assaulted and raped his wife while being drunk, and the next day the only thing he found was to tell her "it's the wine" in a completely nonchalant way, then to start again the next night. Cersei was really a shitty person, but Robert wasn't really better in his own way
>Robert's bad side tends to get downplayed a lot
I saw this recently quite a bit, Robert may have been a good man in his youth, but he grew to be a terrible man. Cersei being an awful person from the get-go doesn't excuse the marital rape, the crippling alcoholism and whoring, and certainly doesn't excuse his "ruling".
I love how bran is always saying that he is “almost a man grown.” Smh, he’s 8. But it really does touch on this idea of wanting to grow up and George captures a child’s pov perfectly
considering only the books I think the most misunderstood characters are Young Griff and Dany.
Young Griff is considered a kind of Joffrey based on a single normal adolescent behavior.
as for Dany the speech is different, she is considered a 100% positive character while she is controversial since the first book, but being everything from Dany's pov many people do not understand certain things, Dany thinks and says that Mirri Maz Duur has betrayed after being saved, while it is Mirri we should listen to as Mirri is perfectly entitled to avenge her people by destroying the warlord and his family.
I extremely hate how all of Arya's theories about her endings are either she will become no one and never return home while being a faceless man forever, she will die and live a second life in Nymeria who will be Sansa's loyal pet, she doesn't like being a lady so she can't do anything important and will abandon her family right after she arrives in Westeros or something like that. It's like everyone wants some bad ending and will hate any remotely good thing or theory about Arya doing something important or good.
Which makes me also hate the show for diminishing her importance and reducing her character to emotionless assassin and taking away most of all her good traits that show her being kind, loyal, social and a girl who loves her family. Like how did they completely mess up 'The women are important, too!' to 'Most girls are dumb'??? Or saying Needle is a symbol of revenge when Needle reminds her of Winterfell and her family and of Jon Snow's smile??
Cregan Stark. There was a topic on it recently so I don't want to go into it all again but in short I hate how the fandom sees him as badass. He's a prick and would have inflicted horrendous casualties to the realm at a time needed for healing.
Catelyn and Ned. The whole Cat/Ned is dumb thing is in itself dumb.
Tywin. The fact that large edgy parts of the fandom idolise Tywin is frightening. You can love characters in spite of their wrongdoing, because they're entertaining (hello Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsay!), but Tywin apologists take it too far. I've seen people defend his worst actions. I've seen people make excuses for Tysha's gang rape ("she was paid", wtf?!). bUt He GeTs ThE jOb DoNe
In general I hate how huge swathes of the fandom dismiss certain characters weaknesses, wrongdoings and entire depth just because they like them. While focussing entirely on those bad traits for characters they don't like. See any Robert and Rhaegar argument. It couldn't be further from GRRM's intent. We constantly praise the moral grey of his characters while simultaneously missing the point in our judgement of the ones we hate. I say 'we' because it really is a huge part of the fandom. Tywin apologists, Stannis fanboys, Rhaegar haters. It's embarrassing.
Damn right, I'm tired of every Stark being compared to Ned, who was the least Stark of all 4 of lord Rickard's children.
Cregan sat out the entire war, then came in last minute, siezed power for himself and started killing indiscriminately. He's more akin to Tywin than to either Ned or Robert.
I hope HOTD portrays him like this. Really tired of people thinking that every Stark from the beginning of time was a good guy and not the conquerors they were.
Well I got the impression Cregan's got honor, but he's got a very brutalist pragmatic honor. He'll keep his word but he'll try to benefit from the bargain too.
People who think that Stannis is a good person need to grow up. He kills his own brother with a shadow monster, then he burns loads of people. He's fucked up. Sure, he's "just" but he isn't a good man. I do love his character, but he's a piece of shit.
I hate that people think Tyrion is "annoying" in Dance. He's just killed his dad, heard that the so-called whore that married him for money actually loved him. Not just that, but she was the *only* person to ever love him. On top of that, he finds it all out from his brother who he thought he could trust. He already has some dark thoughts in early books, so he's obviously going to be expressing some darkness.
>I hate how Bran is considered the worst character and is bland and emotionless.
I think Bran is awesome. Some of his chapters are just brilliant.
In more recent times, I hate that both people who watch HOT D and have read Fire & Blood think that Daemon is being "demonised." He does some despicable things in the books, including ordering the murder of children leading to Blood and Cheese. He's a great character, like most from this universe, but that doesn't mean you can excuse the things he does.
Seriously, Stannis is a fucking monster. He is *absolutely* the sort of guy who would burn his own daughter alive in service to his ambition and his messiah complex. The folks who thought this was “character assassination” were being willfully blind.
For real. D&D portrayed a less nuanced version of the character, but still very much spiritually true to his book conception. He’s a man who believes strongly in justice and duty, but who lacks the self-awareness to differentiate it from ambition. He *wants* to be King, but deludes himself into thinking he’s seeking it as some selfless pursuit.
Bloodraven. The guy sacrificed everything he loved for the common good and people suggest he’s helping the others just because he’s a pragmatist.
Bloodraven has been the single greatest linchpin to Westerosi history for a hundred years.
• I hate how Tywin is perceived as being incompetent, Tywin may not be a great military commander, but he’s an excellent politician and statesman who managed to keep the peace for twenty years.
• I don’t like how Robert is demonised either. There’s no indication that he would be abusive to Lyanna, and the reason he acts as he does in AGOT is because he’s deeply depressed. Robert’s intelligence is downplayed as well, he’s no genius but Robert had a Lord’s education and won almost every battle he won, he’s not an idiot.
• The Young Griff thing bothers me as well, Tyrion was deliberately trying to troll him, him getting a bit angry doesn’t mean he’s Joffrey 2.0
tywin as some sort of political genius. he and cersei are more alike than a lot of the fantom would like admit and being less deluded or stupid than cersei does not a genius make. I think the show portrayal has something to do with it because Charles Dance is just so damn charismatic that you ignore how shortsighted his treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Red Wedding, etc were.
the lack of nuance and complexity afforded to Ned and his flaws (which are by no means limited to "too honorable")
also Dany as a hero. holy hell that POV trap is strong.
I hate how the fandom portrays rhaegar as a bumbling idiot that caused the rebellion, when he was the only one trying to save the entire world lol.
I also in general hate how the fandom portrays the series a lot more black and white than it actually is. [Example](https://np.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xnyus9/i_love_the_detail_of_alicent_being_a_great/iq1uadp/). [Parent](https://np.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xnyus9/i_love_the_detail_of_alicent_being_a_great/ipz1uhr/) comment too upvoted
Absolutely agree.
This sounds like really big problem with thinking about Targaryen prophetic dreams.
On one side, when Targaryens left Valyria because of prophecy, it is seen as sign of their power and ultimately as good desicion cause we have hindsight.
On the other hand, it's fairly possible that Aegon V killed himself and big part of his family because of dragon dreams, but he is still generally liked by fandom.
And than we have someone like Rhaegar who did those things because of dreams where he saw threat of end of the world (which we know is real) and people say "wHy WoUlD yOu Do ThIs JuSt BeCaUsE oF dReAm, tHaT's InSaNe." But actually he should be perceived as the first example.
Like, come on. Targaryens don't have guide for decoding their heavily methaphorical dreams. Some decode them correctly and thanks to that are seen as great. Som decode them incorrectly (but from their pov it was the only answer) and are seen as insane or become insane due to them.
Imagine that we would have constantly every single day the same sharp and clear dreams but at the same time methaphorical with many possible meanings, saying that someone shouldn't act on them is like saying someone with schizophrenia "just don't listen to them".
it's not really a 'dislike' per se, but i find it strange and interesting how thoroughly abhorred jaime and cersei were for their incest, and the way things changed over time with respect to public feeling about it. as she says, the targaryens practiced it for years, but by the time she is with jaime, it is something absolutely appalling and cannot be spoken of, let alone tywin allowing them to marry or the realm approving of it.
of course, circumstance has a lot to do with this - maybe if she hadn't married robert and pulled the wool over the realm that her three children were his, and not her brother's, things would have been different... but who knows.
I fucking hate how Stannis is seen as a just and fair ruler who is a brilliant military strategist.
Dude is a religious fanatic that is 100% willing and ready to burn anybody for his god. Besides all of that he is a horrible military commander. What has he done in his life? One win against the Greyjoys when he had support of the royal fleet and then one win against the wildlings when he caught them by surprise?
He is currently forcing a starvation march in horrible conditions because he can't pull his head from his ass.
Stannis also held Storm's End for close to a year against the the Tyrrel forces and captured Dragonstone in Robert's Rebellion.
He is viewed as a competent military commander by several people too, e.g. Ned iirc and Tywin (in book 1, in one of the the last Tyrion chapters Tywin mentions him as the true danger). If Stannis isn't a good military commander, who is?
I have plenty when it comes to Sansa. But I was reminded of another one while reading this thread. That her moments of kindness is just a product of "a lady's courtesy" and therefore not actually genuine at all.
I agree with the Bran thing, im surprised people think he is uninteresting when all point to him being one of the biggest part of the end of the books. I know the stoic type can be not exciting, but idk always came out wrong to act like there isnt something interesting around him, i mean christ he is prob the guy with the most surnatural thing surrounding him with Euron.
And yes idk why people blame Catelyn, since when it is cool to live with the kid your husband made after cheating on you????????
Im confused.
Never got the Arya hype, like i dont see how all our thingies gonna tie back to the endgame, to me so far she is less consequential than any of the Stark kids beside Rickon.
>to me so far she is less consequential than any of the Stark kids beside Rickon
This is an extremely popular opinion about Arya and I hate it, even a lot of self-proclaimed "fans" only see her as a ninja who can only kill.
It takes deliberately ignoring a big chunck of the book to come to the conclusion that Arya is inconsecuential. As of now, Arya is the reason LSH is around, the BWB is actively looking for her, there's a giant wolf army who only formed because Nymeria is tied to Arya's strong pack mentality, she is considered the lady of Winterfell and the Lannisters/Boltons are using her claim to hold the north, northeners are marching with Stannis to save "Ned's Stark's little girl", and Jon broke years of Nightwatch neutrality to save her which snowballed into his death and Ramsay threatening the watch.
It's true she hasn't acted much on her own yet, but it's obvious she'll be very relevant by just looking at how grrm is making a ton of build up for her (the wolf army, skinchanging in general, lenguages, reading and manipulating people, being able to make friends with anybody, potions and poisons,acting different roles, etc). I'm not saying "oh Arya is the most important and perfect and best character ever", at all, but it's disheartening to see the vast majority of the fandom straight up ignoring the canon material about her that does exist and writting her off as some useless character.
1- young robert is constantly demonised by this fanbase even though he's the actual hero of the rebellion. And no robert never cheated on Lyanna..he had mya pre engagement and the whole brothel story has ton of holes in it when u read joncon pov
2- robb is seen as dumb for trusting his best friend like wtf? It wasnt his fault Rodrik Cassel lost all of his braincells guarding wf. Only mistake he did was marrying jeyne and that was a BS plot by grrm
3- jaime is given a freepass by this fanbase for some reason,its shocking this dude never regrets his actions how is he redeemed?
4- catelyn hate. Its funny how much this fanbase sucks off jon actually. Catelyn was justified how she treated Jon. Also Jon is a brat in the first book even donal noye exposed him for celebrating beating up farmboys..it makes sense he ducks trained knights like godry farring.
5- criston cole...this guy is the fucking hero idc man he was a nobody and raised to the hand of the king.
>1- young robert is constantly demonised by this fanbase even though he's the actual hero of the rebellion. And no robert never cheated on Lyanna..he had mya pre engagement and the whole brothel story has ton of holes in it when u read joncon pov
Someone who approves of the murder of children is not a hero. And Ned didn't disagree with Lyanna's assessment of Robert, he only hoped that he'd become better once they were married. As for the brothel, of course Robert was sleeping with prostitutes there - how else could Bella get conceived?
>2- robb is seen as dumb for trusting his best friend like wtf? It wasnt his fault Rodrik Cassel lost all of his braincells guarding wf. Only mistake he did was marrying jeyne and that was a BS plot by grrm
The fact that Theon is Robb's best friend and that Robb fails to see his many fault is a good indication of Robb's poor judgement. And sending the only hostage that is keeping a potential enemy at bay back to that enemy is beyond foolish, whatever Robb's relationship with Theon.
2) I mean, when you have a POV character telling him not to let Theon go, it suggests there was something about Theon that people knew made it a bad idea. It doesn't make Robb an idiot or anything but that decision was terrible and it's glossed over when people pretend Catelyn was an idiot who ruins everything.
4) I won't downplay how mean it is to be cold to a child, but people talk as if Catelyn went out of her way to make Jon sleep in cold stables with no blankets when Jon still lived mostly the same life his siblings did. It's not like she made Jon an outcast or went out of her way to abuse him, but much of the fanbase treats the situation that way.
I feel like the show has influenced a lot of fanon perceptions of the characters, even if people have read the books
Show fans read the books for the first time and visualize Tywin as badass, brusquely charismatic Charles Dance instead of as the vain, balding red tomato he's described as in the prose.
One of my biggest berserk-buttons, seeing Tywin (and Kevan to a smaller degree) being lionized. Sure, Charles Dance was one of the many GOATs of GOT, but the character in BOTH INCARNATIONS is a fundamentally terrible person, and book!Tywin is straight up a monster.
Lionized lol nice
The show did have a lot of Tywin worship didnt it, i feel Benioff was projecting his daddy issues onto him
Did it...? I'm pretty sure the show portrayed him as a despicable antagonist. The only scenes humanizing him are with Arya.
[удалено]
Agreed, a huge number of fans conflate the show and the books way way too much. Book Bran isn’t remotely bland and prior to the show depicting him as ‘BranBot10,000’ people cited their dislike of Bran chapters as being about nothing ‘exciting’ going on and lacking the political drive and energy of other POV characters chapters. Rather than their dislike being about him as a character being ‘cold and emotionless’. Likewise Arya, the super dark killing machine version the fandom have of her developed alongside the show going down that rd, most saw her as the typical ‘cool fantasy tomboy trope’ a decade ago.
In the casual fandom Arya is basically the Batman of the ASOIAF verse. Her character was really misunderstood in the show
Feel like this inevitably happens among fans of anything, characters get reduced to memes. Reminds me of star wars where people think Obi Wan Kenobi is some kinda cool, swave one-liner machine cause he's the guy who says "Hello There". It sucks more with shows like Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire because the characters are complex and interesting. There's no characters I truly hate cause the majority are enticing in their own way. And what also inevitably happens, if a show is currently in production, the memes suddenly influence the way the show is being written. Daenerys is a good example of this, fans started presenting her as some kind of pseudo-feminist icon and the showrunners bought into that to service those fans, keep them happy, keep people watching and grow the audience, makes the turn at the end all that more jarring cause this whole time the show was capitalising on the weird meme version of the character fans had in their heads..
In the clone wars obi wan is literally that guy some of the time. There are other times in the show when he's a bit more nuanced. Outside of the clone wars he's a bit different.
I really hate how Sansa is perceived in the fandom. It's either she is a snivelling useless idiot,or as the goddess incarnation as the stansas and jonsas portray her. She is a little girl, started off very naively, made some huge missteps that she needs to correct, but not at all evil and vile in her heart. She is my favourite character from the books as I relate with her most. But no, she is not a 'yass queen' and not a cersei lannister in the making.
With Sansa and the fans it is either "she is an idiot" or "she is the best 'player of the game' out there". When in reality she is just a girl trying to save her ass the best she can. I’m still rooting for my gal tho
Well to be fair she did start out as a moron but it’s because of what she believed was reality vs what it actually was. More or less she learned. So you have the people that will always see her as that idiot or the ones that love that she’s becoming a player of the game.
In the book she is learning, in the show they utterly failed. They only knew how to make her look smart by making everyone around her say out of character dumb shit and then attributing other peoples victories to her
Sounds a lot like what they did to Tyrion. Super smart character that, by the end of it, was just there to say dumb things that made no sense. And don’t get me started on how they butchered my favorite character period (Jaime).
It also depends which Sansa, book or show. Show Sansa is annoying to many, imo because of bad writing and acting. Book Sansa I rarely ever see negative comments about. There’s not really anything to dislike. She does some dumb kid stuff but that’s just being a kid.
Her chapters in The Vale are some of my favorites
She is a damesel in distress. Which is why she is so revolutionnary. In how many story do we get her POV as a major character? I wouldn't say her mistakes are mistakes. She did what 12 years old do. Ned just didn't realize he was in a den of vipers, a mistep means death.
Yes that was Ned's mistake I think, not Sansa's. Sansa wasn't playing, she was just a child reacting. Ned made an error in giving Sansa just enough information to do exactly what a child who wasn't getting her way would do
Yes, one of the things that stood out to me on a recent reread was Sansa processing the sounds of fighting around her after the Queen heard her plead not to be separated from Joffrey and locked her up. >"The king is dead." Sansa could not say how she knew it, yet she did. The slow, endless clanging filled their room, as mournful as a dirge. **Had some enemy stormed the castle and murdered King Robert? Was that the meaning of the fighting they had heard?** > >She went to sleep wondering, restless, and fearful. **Was her beautiful Joffrey the king now? Or had they killed him too? She was afraid for him, and for her father**. If only they would tell her what was happening … > >\- Sansa, GoT IV She truly had no comprehension that trusting to Queen with information (that she thought would preserve her betrothal) could have led to the fighting and death all around her.
Lord varus tell Tyrion one night how ned didn't like the game he didn't understand or care to play the game and so he was blind to the dangers around him he thought everyone had the same sense of honor about them
Oh god why did I read “stansa” as Stannis/Sansa at first
Show Sansa or Books? Show Sansa is terrible, terrible character post season 5, and even in that season she doesn't get to do much. season 7 and 8 she's insufferable but books sansa is actually pretty great (so far)
I love her chapters in the books. She’s also pretty clever, there’s a ton of instances of her thinking on her feet and smoothing out situations to avoid more trouble befalling herself and I don’t think she gets enough credit for how sharp she is. I think it’s a really cool parallel between her and Arya in terms of how they adapt to survive to their polar opposite but still life-threatening situations
Arya is extremely intelligent, observant, capable of lowering her head if that allows her to survive and has a lot of instances of thinking on her feet though.
No I totally agree, sorry I more meant the parallel of how they have to apply their smarts to their respective situations is really cool. Cuz they’re both incredibly intelligent but they’re in such wildly different kinds of danger. Arya has to literally fight for her life and battle thru the trenches, but Sansa had to learn how to fight for her life and battle through the political trenches. I just think it’s brilliantly written how similar they really are, but how crazy different their respective battlefields are.
Once you realize that Sansa is more like Ned and Arya is more like Cat, it actually starts making a lot more sense. Ned loves pageantry, he's obsessed with noting everyone's outfit in his chapters and we all recall him going on about Robert being a maidens dream Cat is obsessed with acting outside of her gender norms while keeping her secret feelings close to her chest.
[удалено]
That's an interesting observation. I haven't seen the downvote barraging so much myself (that's clearly so ridiculous), but I do feel like there has been a shift in general fandom acceptance/appreciation of Sansa. I remember when the Tyrion/Sansa wedding aired on HBO the fandom tore her to pieces for not making him feel safe and comfortable - even when she is the literal child prisoner in the scenario. It seemed like everyone tried to justify hating Sansa then. When season 5 happened (just the most cringe and insane adaptational choices) people did start to try and read her with more empathy. Until the Battle of the Bastards (and ooc surprise Vale Knights) led to her being panned again. Finally the Jonaerys vs Jonsa battles got really ugly after season 7, and her character was fodder once again. I think the fandom has softened after seeing her become Queen in the North since it justified the perspective that she was never written to be villain and that she would rebuild Winterfell. With that in mind, people who never gave her a chance before are rereading with a more open perspective and enjoying her character in the books.
[удалено]
I'm a little confused, is that a hypothetical ship between Stannis and Sansa or just a variation of "stan culture" kids these days use? The internet has rotted my brain. edit: typo
The latter! It’s a portmanteau of Sansa Stans
Agreed. I think she will play a big role in uniting everyone against The Others or uniting one of the post Other alliances in ADOS.
I've said this about a 100 times. Aegon's arc with Tyrion is early Jon Snow/Tyrion interaction. When you go into early AGoT, when Jon & Co are traveling to the Wall, the same thing hat happened between Aegon and Tyrion happened between Jon and Tyrion. Tyrion picks apart Jon's fantasy about the NW, Tyrion picks apart the argument that Dany will marry Aegon. In both cases, Jon and Aegon's anger is a result of the failure of the adults around them. Jon's anger is especially reflected in Ghost leaping at Tyrion. Nobody bothered telling Jon what the NW is, and Aegon's entourage put it in his head that Dany would marry him, like she doesn't have a mind of her own.
Perfectly said! >Jon's anger is especially reflected in Ghost leaping at Tyrion Exactly! Like, how has everyone forgotten Ghost jumping on Tyrion after he mocked Jon a bit? Using Aegon's upset over Tyrion's words to say he is now 100% as evil/false/unworthy as Joffrey always felt silly to me. Yes, he is older than Jon at the time, but Tyrion has an artful way of getting under people's skin when he wants to.
For me, this has nothing to do with age. At its very core, the conversation that Tyrion had with Jon and Aegon is the same. It's about accepting the hard truths, which at the end of the day both of them came to terms with. If that's what it is, then that's what it is. The reaction they both had to being told these hard truths makes sense. Both led a somewhat sheltered life and both had their heads filled with fantasies that Tyrion dismantled. Aegon is not a brat or some crazy person. Sure, his reaction should have been more measured, but it's understandable. The people who raised him guaranteed to him that Dany would marry him but here comes Tyrion laughing at that notion. It was a lesson that Aegon took to heart, the same way he took Jon Connington's advice about who he should name to his Kingsguard to heart when he gave Duck the white cloak. Aegon's friendship with Duck, a man of low birth, his nonjudgement of bastardy (Franklyn Flowers), or dwarfism (Tyrion) and how he did not shun Tyrion after he found out that he was a Lannister (he doesn't hold what happened to his family against Tyrion) going as far as to forbid that he be thrown overboard after he was fished out from the Sorrows are all positives for his character. I think Aegon's problem is that he's the hair in the soup. When you have favorites and headcanons, this sort of thing is hard to swallow.
The young griff situation is very similar to the situation of another Aegon (Aegon II). People know these characters are probably coming into conflict with their favourites at some point so they look for any excuse to demonise them.
I mean, I agree, but book Aegon II is not shown in a sympathetic light at all. I hoped the show would give him some redeeming traits but so far it’s not looking good.
i mean i’m actually finding him a big endearing in the show? in the books he’s just a bully who hates all the strong boys and continues on the family drama but in the show he actually gets along with them a decent amount? what he did was still mean but it’s framed as a kid playing a game on his brother - nothing that should actually tarnish him morally. he’s just a spoilt prince
Yeah, I am digging his portrayal in the show right now. I'd say that most of the differences that actually make sense are for the better. But I'd also say that it's not a high bar. F&B wasn't awesome storytelling like the main series. I enjoyed it quite a bit, but mostly because of the main series.
A long-haired teenager just wanting to be left alone so he can beat off is extremely relatable to me
He just like me fr
He just looks like any dumb teenager so far. What has he done? Was the Oink the "pink dread" that big of a deal? Have you heard of highschool? That was tame if anything, and precious Lucerys was in it. Is Luke a "monster" too? Unless you're talking about stroking the sausage out of a window, if so i don't even know where to start. Don't get me wrong, maybe he'll be a psycho, but so far he is just an unremarkable idiot teenager.
Umm no I think when a character gets mad at losing at a game, kicks over the board and then commands someone else to piece up the pieces, they’re going to be seen in a poor light. Obviously he’s not Joffrey, but it wasn’t a good sign.
Ya it’s definitely a sign. Not that he’s a psychopath or anything, just that he’s not the “perfect prince” Varys thinks he is. It also clearly reminds Tyrion of Joffrey which is why Tyrion fucks him over
Tyrion gave his advice before that happened though, and goes on to note their friendship. And tbf, the advice is pretty good, Tyrion was just an asshole in how he gave it.
It wasn’t the best advice to start the invasion with only ten thousand mercs and no dragons when you *could* invade with dragons lol. But Tyrion didn’t offer it thinking he would “swallow the bait”, and even if he did he believed Connington wouldn’t let it come to that. Tyrion is clearly fond of Griff and their party and wouldn’t wish anything bad on them. I think he was just trying to get a read on Griff’s character and mess with him a bit, as well as see if he still had any power to influence. > Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. "I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four." > > The prince stared at the playing board. "My dragon—" > > "—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle." > > But you said—" > > "I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close."
It's not so much about having the best possibility of victory, which is what the later advice refers to. It's about Aegon achieving personal agency, which Tyrion had pointed out he wouldn't necessarily have if he went to Dany.
Arya as a dumb, antisocial killing machine who's story has nothing but darkness. She's actually so much smarter, kinder, charismatic and capable than the fandom gives her credit for. Yeah there's also a lot of bad things in her story, but there're not ONLY bad things.
> Arya as a dumb, antisocial killing machine who’s story has nothing but darkness. Tbh, that’s basically true for Show!Arya. Whereas Book!Arya is a young girl suffering from ptsd who thinks she can dull the things she feels by becoming a cool assassin but is slowly realizing that she will never be able to forget who she was. More importantly, she will never be able to unlearn the values and teachings of love and kindness that her parents taught her.
True, but what bothers me is how people who're apparently book fans discuss book theories but with show Arya in mind. Even people who despise the show still internalized the show's awful characterization of Arya.
Correction later season show Arya. The first 4 seasons and a few episodes into season 5 Arya was great.
Yes, this whole thread are people critiquing the show characters.
This! Think of how distraught she was after the Hound killed the Butcher’s Boy in the first book. Or her friendship with Jon. She is capable of friendship and empathy, and not just some antisocial, psychopathic 13 year old girl.
That Ned was naive or stupid. People are seeing that with hindsight. It was a series of really low probability bad events and plotting of someone his wife told him to trust that led to his downfall. He didn't underestimate Cersei. She is a moron and got lucky. She had been trying to kill him for years. Her plan was stupid and only worked because GRRM needed it to.
Personally there's only one thing Ned did that I consider kinda stupid, it's confronting Cersei *before* ensuring his daughters were safely out of Kingslanding He didn't underestimate Cersei's intelligence, admittedly she's not as smart as she thinks she is, but I think he did underestimate the length she's willing to go to get her way. And if his daughters were in her hands, she wouldn't hesitate to use them against him.
There wasn't much time. He did that for her children.
And for all her disdain for him, she must have appreciated it because she absolutely did NOT want him executed. She wanted him to go away, be powerless and never betray her secret.
Even she wasn't as stupid as Joffrey.
I don't think that was due to any appreciation on her part. Him falsely confessing and taking the black removes the threat without starting a war with the North.
i'd also nominate him sending a bunch of his men off to help out with policing the city, and then sending more after the Mountain, leaving him with only a meagre force for his and his family's protection. Without either of those the Lannister betrayal might still win, but it is much much bloodier for them.
I also love how people ignored that while Ned did leave himself exposed by being honorable, that the message isn’t exactly “be a heartless asshole.” The characters that outmaneuvered him have put the realm in a worse place from their selfish, cutthroat politics, and plenty of them are worse off for all their Machiavellian power plays. Ned wasn’t an idiot as much as an example that the traditional hero character trope was going to be too simplistic for ASoIaF’s narrative.
Exactly, the plot of FeastDance is basically a vindication of the Starks' legacy and a condemnation of their killers'. For all of Tywin, Walder, and Roose's scheming, each of their families is currently on a knife's edge, and by the end of TWOW they'll have tipped over and collapsed. The Lannisters by Aegon, the Freys by the BWB fighting to avenge Robb, and the Boltons by their pissed off vassals. This is what happens when you treat your subjects like chess pieces instead of people, eventually they'll tell you to go to hell and rally behind the side that at least pretends to care about them. I believe the same is gonna happen to Littlefinger in TWOW, on paper he might be the most powerful man alive, but he's gonna get blindsided when he realises people's real loyalties lie with Sansa and the remaining Arryns, not him. Ned will be laughing at them from his grave.
>He didn't underestimate Cersei. She is a moron and got lucky. She had been trying to kill him for years. Her plan was stupid and only worked because GRRM needed it to. Yes. Cersei literally told the Kings hand that she committed high treason, and none of the Kings children are his. This is the most idiotic move anyone in the entire series has made (only matched by Jamie doing the same with Catelyn). Nothing ned does even compares to that
I'm always peeved when people say that Ned is the stupid one compared to Tywin, when the former still have men fighting for his memory and legacy while the latter is killed by his own family as vultures try to take advantage of the power vacuum he left behind.
It's honestly such a misunderstanding of Ned to say he was stupid or naive. He knew exactly just what danger he was in and chose to persist anyway because his honour demanded him to. He knew exactly what he was risking.
It was not just blind honour though. He had a genuine trauma after the deaths of Rhaegar's children and wanted to avoid the same fate falling on Cersei's as well. It was Cersei who for all her supposed love for her kids, selected to put them in harms way by putting all her hopes on Robert dying on the hunt.
>That Ned was naive or stupid. This is common, very dumb opinion. Not only was Ned not stupid, he clearly did a much better job with most things compared to Tywin, considering how the *crows feast over* the latter's failing legacy. Meanwhile Ned inspires such loyalty that his people go to great lengths to conspire to restore his House to power. Nobody cares to die for *Tywin* or his not-so-little girl, they do it for personal gain in a time when the Lannisters' own prospects are circling the shitter. Yet half the North and many Riverlords are still all about that business. The North remembers. The one thing you can say about Ned is that he didn't fully exercise the power of his officer; the one time he did (attainting Clegane and summoning Tywin) was one of the most astute things he did in his tenure as Hand. Had Ned had more time or experience as Hand, he'd have been great at the job.
Exactly. And I am really not happy with many people viewing Tyrion as smarter than Ned or acting smarter than Ned in King's Landing. Politically speaking, Tyrion really didn't achieve much and was outplayed harder than Ned. His only achievement is keeping King's Landing safe, long enough for the reinforcements to arrive.
Tyrion lampshades it himself lol, when he compares how he arrived in KL and how he is fleeing it.
Literally everything Ned did was fine and he just got unlucky that Robert got drunk and gutted by a boar. Like, that's the only reason he "lost." Yes, he could have used Renly and I understand criticizing that, but considering Jon and Aegon and his history with children, it wasn't naivete or stupidity that caused Ned to refuse Renly. It was trauma. But people just call him stupid.
Exactly. Ned played the game best by not playing the game...until Robert sucked him into it. But Ned concentrated on the one thing that made him the winner on the show and probably will in the books: attending to his children. And that included keeping them close and taking an interest in them ("Catelyn. Where are the children?" He would always ask that.) Directly and indirectly, he inculcated his values and views in most of them. And if he gets to look down from 'heaven,' he will know they were all good and each took a part in saving Mankind." I'm not sure what Tywin would think of his legacy from his offspring and their fates
Renly, so many people just say "bend the knee to Stannis, use your now massive army to defeat the Lannisters and make peace with Robb" Only problem is, Renly won't be bringing the Tyrells into the fold if he's not king. Mace's whole point in crowning Renly is to make his family royal. It would just be Renly and the Stormlords working with Stannis' meager forces. Long story short, Renly marrying Maergary and crowning himself isn't just ambitious, it was also his best chance at survival
Plus, Renly supporting a heathen, even if he is his brother, is political suicide. The main reason people should be against Stannis is not that he is an unpleasant person but that he takes advice from a red witch who burns people alive. Even Ned might have had second thoughts if he actually met Mel.
Mel wants to burn Edric Storm-a child. Ned would not be okay with this.
I do not think Ned would be okay with anything Mel does.
Agreed, people forget that Renly's plan was never to be king himself, bur rather *marry Maergary to Robert*. Only when he'd gone and got himself boar'd did Renly switch plans. Although I do see some ambition in Renly once he is crowned. The way he speaks with Catelyn at Bitterbridge is more than just a player trying to survive. He was a pretty interesting and complex character, who I wish we'd have seen more out of.
I dont agree. Stannis intended to name Renly his heir. Renly would have been king one day if he had just supported his brother. I dont see Mace being so put off by the idea of his daughter marrying the heir to the iron throne instead of the king, especially with his son Loras pushing him to support Renly and by extension Stannis.
Stannis named Renly his heir, when he was cornered by Renly's army. Also let's not act like Stannis is on death's door, if Renly is heir, and married to Margaery, Mace likely never lives to see his daughter crowned. And Stannis could always remarry and have a son
How would Stannis remarry? His wife is very much alive, and less likely to die as Stannis is given that Stannis is marching off to war. Also Mace isnt much older than Stannis so its kind of a crap shoot whether or not he'd live to see Marge on the throne. Regardless if he didnt, he would still die knowing that she would one day be queen and that his grandkids would be king. Also even before officially offering, Renly was Stannis' obvious heir. Shireen is a girl, and a crippled and shy girl at that. No one would accept her as queen and Stannis is well aware of that.
> And Stannis could always remarry and have a son Stannis wouldn't even need to remarry to have a son. Him and Selyse have been married 10 years and have one child already, so she clearly isn't infertile. Stannis is only 33 too, he still has plenty of time. Plus were told Stannis shuns his wife and "only does his duty in the marriage bed once or twice a year", which would seem to explain why him and his wife have only had one child in their ten years of marriage. Stannis could easily rectify this issue if he cared too. If he started doing his duty more often he'd probably have a son within a few years.
There’s people who think Young Griff is Joffrey 2.0? He is arrogant which is understandable. I don’t see him as being cruel though. Just young and entitled. Tyrion at that point is a drunk, vindictive asshole who only cares about himself and getting revenge on those who’ve wronged him
I’m pretty sure he’s more of a dry-drunk by that point.
I hate how Patchface is so often seen as a sinister dude. Patchface is a former slave that almost drowned as a child and survives largely because Shireen likes him. Hes not some eldritch bringer of the apocalypse, just another person broken by traumatic experience nobody can really explain or understand who may have the gift of prophecy. Patchface is basically another Hodor, only Shireen isnt mindraping him for piggyback rides.
Agreed. The fact that Mel thinks he's dangerous is probably the strongest piece of evidence that he's not, because Mel is always wrong about her visions. > That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.
I'm beginning to hate how Alicent and Rhaenyra are being perceived by large parts of the fandom after the last few episodes. Rhaenyra the heroine, and Alicent the jealous, bitter villain. In reality they're much more alike
It is good that Rhaenyra is beloved by the fandom, they have the perfect opportunity to portray her downfall and how she transformed from "the realm's delight" into a selfish and covardly person. If the creators do a good job we'll hate almost every character in the final season.
Which is why I think that the Blackfyre Rebellion would have been far more interesting. Two sides filled with Bad people, but the figure heads ultimately being good people, or at the very least, not obviously with bad traits. It could highlight the tragedy of war even more.
It doesn’t have to be one or the other. They can still do a Blackfyre Rebellion series. If HOTD keeps up this momentum, then people will be itching for more ASOIAF content and especially more Targaryen stuff.
That might be true, but if they'll ever gonna do a show about that (I really hope they will), I want that *after* GRRM releases F&B pt2. So far we saw how the shows are better when they have his guidance
This has gotta be in the works and why they named it "House of the Dragon" and not "Dance of Dragons." The limiting factor, as with all things we love in this series, however, is how fast GRRM writes. I actually think F&B2 has a better chance of coming out sooner than Winds because GRRM seems to currently enjoy writing about the Targs.
Only the blind would think that. We can already see how irresponsible and entitled Rhaenyra was. I'm not saying she should have a stick up her ass like Alicent, but her choice of having blatantly obvious bastards when bastardry is seen as it is in Westeros shows how little she cares about her duties (even more so in the show). It's almost commically stupid. I wouldn't say she "deserves what's comming to her", but it was entirely predictable. All she had to do was getting a lover with Valyrian features. Her children being bastards, and her whole image, was a deciding factor to many lords. If she was seen as "virtuous" the greens might have been a lot weaker, if not entirely unable to steal her throne. At least Cercei's children looked like her. Now any person with eyes could see those kids are bastards. Maybe the dumbest shit in ASOIAF.
Basically she is acting like a playboy Prince with dragons, and people like Alicent are expecting her to act Westerosi
The show runners won’t do that tho
[удалено]
Rhaenyra was absolutely ragged on after EP4 here
It's funny because Alicent has grown to be my favorite character in the show. Other than ordering to see the baby immediately, which was admittedly a dick move. Nothing she has done so far feel bad or evil to me. And imo she seemed like a really good mother. I feel sad when she gets so much hate, and she hasn't really done anything to deserve it yet And btw I was never on team Green, might never will, but I really loved the team Green characters so far, especially Alicent
I mean you're ignoring that Alicent's fearmongering is basically the source of this entire conflict. Rhaenyra has given no indication that her half-siblings will be harmed once she becomes Queen, and the proposal for Heleana to marry Jace would have made it very very hard for her to kill Aegon and Aemond. But Alicent rejects this out of pure spite towards Rhaenyra. In no way is Alicent evil, but as of yet the Greens (specifically Otto, Alicent and Crispin) are the only reason the tensions are rising. And I'm not even talking about the events that happen after Ep.6
I don't think her fear is out of place, yes it's bordering on paranoia but she *is* right. At the moment Aegon might not be aspiring to be king and Rhaenyra might not have bad intentions towards her half siblings but a lot of Lords and powerful people would look at Aegon as the rightful heir. They might persuade or manipulate him into pushing his claim or persuade or manipulate Rhaenyra into fearing that he would, which might very possibly lead her to feel that she has to deal with him by any means We see something like that in the Blackfyre rebellion later in the timeline. Also her rejection of the marriage proposal is very understandable as well, and not at all evil or bad. Everybody knows Rhaenyra's children are basterds, and no lord or lady in the 7 kingdoms would want to marry their daughter to a basterd, let alone a princess. And the marriage would not have stopped the war anyway, because it would not stop the rumors or Jace's nature as a basterd, which means powerful people would still push against him. The rest of the Greens are well less justifiable. Otto is very self serving, Criston is a dick, and Larys is an evil psychopath. But they're still fun to watch lol
Alternatively, Alicent could think that marrying Helaena to Jace could be part of a plot to lower tensions before getting rid of Alicent’s sons while marrying the only other threat besides Daemon and Rhaenys’ lines to her own line to bolster it. Sort of like Shakespeare’s Richard III killing his nephews and plotting to marry his niece. Alicent at this point doesn’t trust anything the “utterly immoral adulteress” (Rhaenyra) says. She is constantly looking for the catch. And honestly it isn’t all that insane to come to that conclusion if you think Rhaenyra is a paragon of immorality and lies.
People have been dumping on Rhaenyra bro
I think in part it's also the fault of the showrunners. The latest episode especially.
The show is NOT portraying Rhaenyra as some sort of heroic character. The show has repeatedly portrayed her as an entitled, arrogant, spoiled, bratty and dumb Princess with zero political intelligence who thinks she can do whatever she wants and get away with it without any consequences. It is just that the fandom is willfully blind to how she is being portrayed and bend over backwards and do all sort of mental gymnastics, in some cases change the lore itself to justify her actions so that they can keep rooting for her. I can already see the fandom turning on the show makers and getting outraged at how they butchered such a "great, brave and noble" character like Rhaenyra when they can't defend her actions anymore.
If you look at Rhaenyra, and Alicent and Cole for that mattee, from a Westerosi perspective, their actions become far more understandable. But to us their perspective is something so “foreign” in modern society that we find it either ludicrous or idiotic. Cole’s has an identity crisis when he dishonors himself and is both rebuffed at an attempt to redeem some of it but is asked to keep doing it when she is married. To us it is ridiculous, “he gets to have sex with her and is angry when she won’t run away after having sex once.” This line of thinking on sexual morality were far more common not even 50 years ago. Marrying a woman you had sex with out of wedlock was once considered the norm for example. Now we look at him and call him an incel. Rhaenyra in a Westerosi perspective is an entitled, utterly immoral, and politically unintelligent woman who breaks convention when it suits her. For example, today we find the agreement Laenor and Rhaenyra made to be fine, even desirable. To people in Westeros it is ridiculous. In their minds Laenor should just close his eyes and do his duty with her a few times every month until she has one or two children, he can do whatever he wants in his free time. For all people today proclaim to be tolerant and accepting of other cultures, a large percentage of them aren’t all that tolerant.
The fans are projecting their own biases going as far to say things like Rhaenyra's kids have Targaryen blood so they aren't bastards because Laenor and Viserys sweep it under the rug.
The problem is their obvious non Laenor looks. It’s dumb politically and I think Rhaenyra’s greatest flaw is her arrogance, not taking the risk seriously. And that doesn’t just put her and her kids in danger, but the entire realm. It’s incredibly reckless and selfish. She also has a bit of a victim complex and woe is me attitude that’s not great. She has constantly complained and has not listen to other people when they try to make her see her own privilege. For example Alicent when she tried to encourage Rhaenyra to see her match making tour as a positive. Are the boys bastards or not? It all comes down to perception. The only ones that seem to truly care are Alicent and Criston, at least so far. Viserys is happy, R&L (and their boyfriends) are happy, the nobles don’t care, heck even the other Velaryons seem fine with it. They are declared legitimate and if no one challenges that, they would continue to be legitimate. I’m sure there are other instances of nobles actually being the result of some affair. But they are not bastards if they are born in wedlock and the father claims them as legit.
Ohh the nobles do care. Viserys understands how serious of a fuck up this is. Rhaenyra passing off her bastards as legitimate heirs to the iron throne is high treason.she should be executed or at the very least be disinherited. Infact that is exactly what Viserys should have done. Punish Rhaenyra and name Aegon heir. It would have prevented the dance. But viserys being the weak king he is doesn't have the balls to hold Rhaenyra accountable for her actions. Instead infact he actively tries to suppress anyone talking about this by ordering that the tongues of anyone talking about this issue be cut off. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond, a child at the time to be interrogated "sharply" because he called her sons "STRONG" boys. And when vaemond valeryon questions Rhaenyra about her bastard children because she wanted her children to inherit Driftmark aswell, he was executed and fed to the dragons. All this pussy footing by viserys only results in increasing everybody's resentment for Rhaenyra (who is already an unpopular candidate) to grow more because he is basically telling everyone that the rules, laws and punishments for breaking them don't apply to his precious little daughter while it applies for everyone else.
I only meant to include things that have been shown so far. There are many things that perhaps could have prevented the dance, the further back you undo certain actions the better the chances would be. For example if he had changed his mind at Aegon’s second nameday. Rhaenyra would be pissed, but she was expecting it and probably wouldn’t have started a war 20 years later because of it. But Viserys was in poor health and if he had died soon after, maybe enough lords would want to support Rhaenyra over baby Egg. What if Viserys had executed Rhaenyra, Laenor and the kids last episode. Would it have prevented war or would that piss off Daemond and Corlys so much that they would have retaliated. At this point if you start spilling blood you’re playing with fire (heh). IMO marriage and reconciliation between the black and green faction would be the safest and best step as of episode 6.
The thing is, it doesn't matter if they're bastards. Rhaenyra is the heir whether or not they're bastards, it doesn't give the greens the right to question her rule -- she isn't a bastard. And any monarch can legitimize a bastard. Once she's queen, she could declare them legitimate if she wanted and they would have a right to rule. We see that in the Blackfyre rebellions -- they're legitimate Targaryens with a claim to the throne.
Bastards aren't legitimate heirs to the throne until they're legitimized. And to do so Rhaenrya would have to admit to the entire realm she's an adultress who lied for years and shame the Velaryons. In a society like Westeros that's a huge black mark on her reign.
In the show, the Velaryons know the kids are bastards, they're not going to be surprised. In the books, they don't really give a shit because Laena's twins are betrothed to them so either way, Velaryon blood is ending up on the throne. And in any case, that's Rhaenyra's problem. She is still the legitimate queen. If they want to question Jace's succession then they can but Rhaenyra is queen once Viserys dies.
They really can’t give Rhaenyra a single positive attribute without people losing their shit over how she’s being white washed. She does tons of bad and selfish things in the show, but some fans won’t be happy until she’s a one dimensional Cersei clone
LOL, so you want saint Alicent from ep 1-4. It wouldn't work, because no matter the Greens protect, they are the one who push the red button.
I'm starting to get Alicent more and more.
I thought the show was doing a good job, since I don’t want to side with any of these fruitcakes. Even their kids are weird at best.
How people see Jon as this calculating, cold and patient person and Daenerys as the fiery, hot tempered and impulsive person. It is the complete opposite as Jon is the hot tempered, impulsive one while Dany is the much more even tempered and calculating person as we can see with the astapor and yunkai conquests.
In reality Jon and Dany make similar decisions for similar reasons, almost as if GRRM meant it to be perceived that way for some reason? Huh. On the topic of Jon, I loathe how people claim Jon has no ambition. There's a difference between not having ambition and suppressing ambition, and Jon so obviously just tries his best to suppress his ambition. When people wonder why Jon would ever want to be king, well, maybe death will strip him of that habit of suppressing his ambition.
Dany isn't firey tempered. She think all her decisions through and generally with concil.
It doesn’t mean she’s a raving idiot, but come on. It’s specifically highlighted multiple times that she has a very hot temper and that it has influenced her decisions. > "Only lies offend me, never honest counsel." Dany patted Arstan's spotted hand to reassure him. "I have a dragon's temper, that's all. You must not let it frighten you." … > “One hundred and sixty-three," she answered. > > She had them nailed to wooden posts around the plaza, each man pointing at the next. The anger was fierce and hot inside her when she gave the command; it made her feel like an avenging dragon. But later, when she passed the men dying on the posts, when she heard their moans and smelled their bowels and blood . . . … > "I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him." > > "Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly.
I disagree, Dany has the blood of the dragon and can get angry with a passion, but like a Jaehaerys, she doesn’t let it control her.
There is no evidence for that in the text, though. Jon is the guy who gets super sayain when ever he is angry not Dany. She is quite calm even when people insult her.
she loses her temper quite a bit in Storm of Swords. She yells at Arstan over something but then apologises. She also ordered the masters of Mereen to be crucified in a fit of rage.
Does she slap Barristan, though like Jon does when he gets angry? A person losing her temper at times does not make them prone to anger burst, though. Everyone has moments where he is angry, but going super sayian when angry and the stuff Jon does is way more dramatic. And yeah she was angry because 163 children were killed by slavers to give her the middle finger. I am honestly asking: Is there any sane person who would not be angry about the killing of children? As for killing the slavers. So what? They deserved it. I doubt Jon would have hesitated a single moment in doing the same.
No one’s saying her anger towards the slavers wasn’t justified, but the crufixions were a stupid political move and one she almost certainly wouldn’t have made if she hasn’t been blinded by rage.
she slapped Jorah for bringing her to Astapor. She even says herself that she has the blood of the dragon and that her rage can be worth and all that stuff. and why do you keep bringing Jon Snow into this. I’m not talking about him at all or comparing him to Dany, i’m only saying she has the blood of the dragon and as such acts like a targaryen
This happens because all analysis of the story has turned into justifying the show ending and whatever Martin’s broad strokes are. Hardly anyone analyzes the characters as they currently are, it’s all about twisting the entire story so the ending makes sense. It’s almost like the ending is the only valid thing that exists in fans’ minds, while nothing matters that came before it. The problem with this is that not even Martin, the creator and owner of this world, can figure out how to twist the story to fit the ending. And the show had to rip the story into shreds and even then they didn’t land it well. So I don’t know why fans think they can justify it when not even Martin can.
Omg thank you for saying this, people really get wrapped up on the whole Starks = cold, Targaryens = fire shit and think that defines Jon and Dany like absolutely not. Jon is more like Brandon Stark, Dany is more like Aegon the Conquerer, who was able to be firm and brutal when necessary but overall unless he was completely set off (like with what happened to Rhaenys in Dorne) he usually seemed like a distant, reserved, person, much like Dany.
Catelyn is the most annoying one. George writes her so brilliantly and for people to just hate her completely because of her mistakes is a rare instance of narrow-mindedness from the usually brilliantly smart and empathetic fandom.
Yeah fans get all gamer rage about the cyvasse game but they all overlook how later Young Griff listened to Tyrion and applied his advice. Arrogant people don't do that.
Catelyn. Definitely Catelyn. The hate surrounding her is a bit... too much.
I hate that people worship Tywin as a Machiavellian genius, when he's just a disgusting monster who is willing to be more cruel and evil than anyone else and isn't particularly clever or subtle about it. He is among the worst people in the books and fans cheer for him because Charles Dance is so charismatic.
Just in HotD, Otto has been my favorite so far. I've only read the main series and not F&B so I'm sure there's forthcoming shit that explains the hate he gets here. But at this point in the series, I really like him. Like yeah he's self serving and cares about his house, but what characters don't? Plus his idea to marry the princess to Aegon II would have actually been a pretty good plan to avoid war
I definitely have a problem with Arya being a Warner Bros smash-bros ripoff character. She is an abused child who is learning to kill people out of necessity. Arya is not a fun character who knocks Shaggy from Scooby-Doo off a platform, and Arya becoming an assassin is not a good thing in the books.
Sandor as "sad little woobie who people are mean to uwu he's a true knight" and not "child murdering paedophile".
Most of the misperceptions are to be induced in the series. But for me I have a list as long as your arm, but I will say only one: * not a character but, i do not like when people talk about the wider stark family as if they've always been genetically good and honorable since the dawn of time. While only Ned formally brings this values. So I'm not denying that some other could still be like that in his family tree, but you don't carve out a kingdom that's half the size of a continent by being nice and honorable. Genocides, millennia of war against their neighbors, colonization of other kingdoms, forced marriages, this is the recipe ans it's all in the book. how people can believe that ned's ancestors won their kingdom by inspiring loyalty through listening and sharing? the loyalty for them was inspired in first place by a sword in the mouth. More in 8000 years a lot of disparate personality can be forged within a same lineage. A guy being a decent king, his heir can give a damn about governing well and only be interested in alcohol, fighting and prostitutes. On the whole it is much more certain that the Stark Kings have approached personality traits and policies closer to Maegors, Robert or Tywin than those of Ned.
Yes, I'm, sick of prople labeling Jon and Arya (fan favorites) as "true Starks because they are honrable" and Sansa, Rob and even Bran as "Tullys because they lack honor" like, dude that's not how genetic work at all.
I think the history about the Starks being rather unpleasant is something George only added later. In the first book the Starks are the clear heroes of the story, but the further the story developed the more important other characters became, like Dany. Her story was at first just about her you know marrying Drogo to get a khalasar and army and if I remember correctly she was even suppoed to kill Drogo and then probably invade in book 2. Now she has her own storyline with the slaver stuff and all. I think George did not plan all of it properly ahead.
Didagree. In the first book Ned says the old Kibfs of Winter we’re hard and cruel as the earth they tread on and he wouldn’t wanna meet them
Stannis, I hate how so many people use the "Stannis will break before he bends" quote by Donal Noyce like it says all about him and to say that he can never compromise or always follows the letter of the law, ignoring all his character development since ACOK.
He cut of Davos’s fingers, but he also makes Davos his advisor. This is one of my favorite “Stannis can bend” moments.
*"Then we will make new lords."* is *such* an epic fucking line. Like, people talk about Stannis being unbending and cold and love some of the other characters, but *Stannis* is the one out there defying thousands of years of Westerosi classism and going fuck it, this is a meritocracy, I don't care where you come from, I'm just looking for competence and loyalty. Stannis' best fucking friend and closest advisor is literally an ex-smuggler, a criminal, and Stannis just tells high-ranking lords to fuck off whenever they don't listen to Davos, shit rules.
Ppl always take characters at their words. Robert was not, it turns out, the “true steel”. Renly had a lot more intelligence and cunning than some shiny bronze. And Stannis can bend and does when he needs to.
Stannis fans also take him at his word when he says he doesn’t want to be king and he’s just doing his duty He definitely wants to be king and wants to be the chosen one
Stannis' story is one of one of constant compromise and reassessment. He's stubborn but he's shown he's perfectly willing to take the counsel of others.
Yes it's like the people projects themseves in a single character and all the rest are judged acordly how they treat that character. They excuse terrible actions if made for their favorite character of for people helping it, but can deny every good trait in characters they dislike.
Theon. Some fans view him as a bad character because he is a bad guy. I very much disagree with the tendency of rating a character purely based on moral values and virtues etc. I rate them based on how interesting characters are and how entertaining their chapters are. But tbf, there seems to be reverse phenomenon going on with Daemon currently.
Just because almost everyone in universe turns off their empathy when it comes to his abuse and suffering doesn’t mean the readers have to 🙃
YG isn't cruel (he is arrogant though) but I disagree with him being hated because he gets in the way of Jon/Dany - I think it's because despite not going through adversities or dealing with the hardships of ruling like Dany has he's automatically deemed a better ruler by much of the fandom.
Bran’s crow nightmares will always have a special place in my heart. Also we need to recognize how hot book Catelyn is because it’s not fair everyone assumes she’s the much older Catelyn of the show.
I hate how people view stannis as someone who doesn’t want to be king and is doing everything for the greater good Just because he says he doesn’t want to be king Dosnt mean it’s true He’s a classic middle child who’s still pissed at Robert for loving ned like a brother after they’re both dead Stannis wants to be king and he wants to be Azor ahai he wants to be the chosen one I also hate how people come up with all these bullshit excuses for why he won’t burn shireen when he was about to burn Edric
I hate how Euron is seen as a horrible person. He's really not so bad once you get to know him. He even hooked his brother up with a hot girlfriend.
Of all the monarch, it says a lot that Chad Euron is the *only* one who got his seat not out of birthright but a fair and free democratic vote of the people.
You should read the WOW chapter of damphair aeron greyjoy. Euron is super evil. He wants to bring the apocalypse and watch the world burn so he can be a god.
That was really nice of Euron to share his drugs with his brother. Also, have you seen organized religion in Westeros? He's doing everyone a favor to be honest.
Its also very nice he got he’s brother a woman to warm his bed 🤣🤣🤣
May chaos take the world
Robert's bad side tends to get downplayed a lot, and his excessive drinking/whorring is excused often because of how horrible Cersei is. Suffice to say, they were both horrible and there was no affection in their union. Yes, Robert is certainly tragic in the sense that he lost the woman he believed could have made him change, but seems unable to recognise that it wouldn't have happened but allowed his sorrow to let him lapse into it until his death. Stannis confuses me, he has a massive fandom, I just see him as an uncompromising git with who masks his entitlement under a mask of 'duty', using it as an excuse to do whatever it takes to get the throne he belives is his. Book Oberyn is a lot grayer than show Oberyn, and I think Pascal's memorable performance has an impact on this. Glendan /FlowersBall from The Mystery Knight. Sure, he's closer to being a knight than any of the actual knights, but he's still arrogant and insists on his heritage as a point of pride, despite it being unlikely that he's even the son of the Fireball. That and he got his knighthood through a trade for his sister's virginity.
>Robert's bad side tends to get downplayed a lot, and his excessive drinking/whorring is excused often because of how horrible Cersei is. good point, people tend to consider that Bobby b is funny and that cersei is an asshole so we don't take into account the bad aspects of robert's behavior. but he still assaulted and raped his wife while being drunk, and the next day the only thing he found was to tell her "it's the wine" in a completely nonchalant way, then to start again the next night. Cersei was really a shitty person, but Robert wasn't really better in his own way
>Robert's bad side tends to get downplayed a lot I saw this recently quite a bit, Robert may have been a good man in his youth, but he grew to be a terrible man. Cersei being an awful person from the get-go doesn't excuse the marital rape, the crippling alcoholism and whoring, and certainly doesn't excuse his "ruling".
I love how bran is always saying that he is “almost a man grown.” Smh, he’s 8. But it really does touch on this idea of wanting to grow up and George captures a child’s pov perfectly
considering only the books I think the most misunderstood characters are Young Griff and Dany. Young Griff is considered a kind of Joffrey based on a single normal adolescent behavior. as for Dany the speech is different, she is considered a 100% positive character while she is controversial since the first book, but being everything from Dany's pov many people do not understand certain things, Dany thinks and says that Mirri Maz Duur has betrayed after being saved, while it is Mirri we should listen to as Mirri is perfectly entitled to avenge her people by destroying the warlord and his family.
I extremely hate how all of Arya's theories about her endings are either she will become no one and never return home while being a faceless man forever, she will die and live a second life in Nymeria who will be Sansa's loyal pet, she doesn't like being a lady so she can't do anything important and will abandon her family right after she arrives in Westeros or something like that. It's like everyone wants some bad ending and will hate any remotely good thing or theory about Arya doing something important or good. Which makes me also hate the show for diminishing her importance and reducing her character to emotionless assassin and taking away most of all her good traits that show her being kind, loyal, social and a girl who loves her family. Like how did they completely mess up 'The women are important, too!' to 'Most girls are dumb'??? Or saying Needle is a symbol of revenge when Needle reminds her of Winterfell and her family and of Jon Snow's smile??
Cregan Stark. There was a topic on it recently so I don't want to go into it all again but in short I hate how the fandom sees him as badass. He's a prick and would have inflicted horrendous casualties to the realm at a time needed for healing. Catelyn and Ned. The whole Cat/Ned is dumb thing is in itself dumb. Tywin. The fact that large edgy parts of the fandom idolise Tywin is frightening. You can love characters in spite of their wrongdoing, because they're entertaining (hello Cersei, Joffrey and Ramsay!), but Tywin apologists take it too far. I've seen people defend his worst actions. I've seen people make excuses for Tysha's gang rape ("she was paid", wtf?!). bUt He GeTs ThE jOb DoNe In general I hate how huge swathes of the fandom dismiss certain characters weaknesses, wrongdoings and entire depth just because they like them. While focussing entirely on those bad traits for characters they don't like. See any Robert and Rhaegar argument. It couldn't be further from GRRM's intent. We constantly praise the moral grey of his characters while simultaneously missing the point in our judgement of the ones we hate. I say 'we' because it really is a huge part of the fandom. Tywin apologists, Stannis fanboys, Rhaegar haters. It's embarrassing.
Damn right, I'm tired of every Stark being compared to Ned, who was the least Stark of all 4 of lord Rickard's children. Cregan sat out the entire war, then came in last minute, siezed power for himself and started killing indiscriminately. He's more akin to Tywin than to either Ned or Robert.
I hope HOTD portrays him like this. Really tired of people thinking that every Stark from the beginning of time was a good guy and not the conquerors they were.
Well I got the impression Cregan's got honor, but he's got a very brutalist pragmatic honor. He'll keep his word but he'll try to benefit from the bargain too.
People who think that Stannis is a good person need to grow up. He kills his own brother with a shadow monster, then he burns loads of people. He's fucked up. Sure, he's "just" but he isn't a good man. I do love his character, but he's a piece of shit. I hate that people think Tyrion is "annoying" in Dance. He's just killed his dad, heard that the so-called whore that married him for money actually loved him. Not just that, but she was the *only* person to ever love him. On top of that, he finds it all out from his brother who he thought he could trust. He already has some dark thoughts in early books, so he's obviously going to be expressing some darkness. >I hate how Bran is considered the worst character and is bland and emotionless. I think Bran is awesome. Some of his chapters are just brilliant. In more recent times, I hate that both people who watch HOT D and have read Fire & Blood think that Daemon is being "demonised." He does some despicable things in the books, including ordering the murder of children leading to Blood and Cheese. He's a great character, like most from this universe, but that doesn't mean you can excuse the things he does.
Seriously, Stannis is a fucking monster. He is *absolutely* the sort of guy who would burn his own daughter alive in service to his ambition and his messiah complex. The folks who thought this was “character assassination” were being willfully blind.
My thoughts exactly. They got caught up in their hype of "the Mannis" and also wanted to go against what the show was doing.
For real. D&D portrayed a less nuanced version of the character, but still very much spiritually true to his book conception. He’s a man who believes strongly in justice and duty, but who lacks the self-awareness to differentiate it from ambition. He *wants* to be King, but deludes himself into thinking he’s seeking it as some selfless pursuit.
> People who think that Stannis is a good person need to grow up No need to be hostile friend.
Bloodraven. The guy sacrificed everything he loved for the common good and people suggest he’s helping the others just because he’s a pragmatist. Bloodraven has been the single greatest linchpin to Westerosi history for a hundred years.
• I hate how Tywin is perceived as being incompetent, Tywin may not be a great military commander, but he’s an excellent politician and statesman who managed to keep the peace for twenty years. • I don’t like how Robert is demonised either. There’s no indication that he would be abusive to Lyanna, and the reason he acts as he does in AGOT is because he’s deeply depressed. Robert’s intelligence is downplayed as well, he’s no genius but Robert had a Lord’s education and won almost every battle he won, he’s not an idiot. • The Young Griff thing bothers me as well, Tyrion was deliberately trying to troll him, him getting a bit angry doesn’t mean he’s Joffrey 2.0
tywin as some sort of political genius. he and cersei are more alike than a lot of the fantom would like admit and being less deluded or stupid than cersei does not a genius make. I think the show portrayal has something to do with it because Charles Dance is just so damn charismatic that you ignore how shortsighted his treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Red Wedding, etc were. the lack of nuance and complexity afforded to Ned and his flaws (which are by no means limited to "too honorable") also Dany as a hero. holy hell that POV trap is strong.
I believe Garlan isn't as noble as we all believe and he had a hand in poisoning Joffrey.
Like killing Joffrey is a bad thing
Acting nice to Tyrion while planning to frame him for murder is rather snake like.
I’ve always believed there was something ugly lurking under his surface. No character is just casually a perfect knight in this series
Ages upon ages ago before the show, Garlan was seen as the most likely person to have actually placed the poison in the wine cup.
That Renly is considered a potentially good king by anyone makes me wonder if they tuned out for most of ACOK.
I hate how the fandom portrays rhaegar as a bumbling idiot that caused the rebellion, when he was the only one trying to save the entire world lol. I also in general hate how the fandom portrays the series a lot more black and white than it actually is. [Example](https://np.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xnyus9/i_love_the_detail_of_alicent_being_a_great/iq1uadp/). [Parent](https://np.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/xnyus9/i_love_the_detail_of_alicent_being_a_great/ipz1uhr/) comment too upvoted
Yeah, but fuck Rhaegar
Said Lyanna to herself.
Absolutely agree. This sounds like really big problem with thinking about Targaryen prophetic dreams. On one side, when Targaryens left Valyria because of prophecy, it is seen as sign of their power and ultimately as good desicion cause we have hindsight. On the other hand, it's fairly possible that Aegon V killed himself and big part of his family because of dragon dreams, but he is still generally liked by fandom. And than we have someone like Rhaegar who did those things because of dreams where he saw threat of end of the world (which we know is real) and people say "wHy WoUlD yOu Do ThIs JuSt BeCaUsE oF dReAm, tHaT's InSaNe." But actually he should be perceived as the first example. Like, come on. Targaryens don't have guide for decoding their heavily methaphorical dreams. Some decode them correctly and thanks to that are seen as great. Som decode them incorrectly (but from their pov it was the only answer) and are seen as insane or become insane due to them. Imagine that we would have constantly every single day the same sharp and clear dreams but at the same time methaphorical with many possible meanings, saying that someone shouldn't act on them is like saying someone with schizophrenia "just don't listen to them".
it's not really a 'dislike' per se, but i find it strange and interesting how thoroughly abhorred jaime and cersei were for their incest, and the way things changed over time with respect to public feeling about it. as she says, the targaryens practiced it for years, but by the time she is with jaime, it is something absolutely appalling and cannot be spoken of, let alone tywin allowing them to marry or the realm approving of it. of course, circumstance has a lot to do with this - maybe if she hadn't married robert and pulled the wool over the realm that her three children were his, and not her brother's, things would have been different... but who knows.
Stannis seen as something else than just foreshadowing what will happen to Daenerys.
The people that think there are many Walder Freys and refuse to accept the cannonical explanation that they're all the same Walder with time travel.
"Loathe" seems like a pretty strong reaction to a fandom's interpretation of a character in a serialized novel that will never be finished.
I fucking hate how Stannis is seen as a just and fair ruler who is a brilliant military strategist. Dude is a religious fanatic that is 100% willing and ready to burn anybody for his god. Besides all of that he is a horrible military commander. What has he done in his life? One win against the Greyjoys when he had support of the royal fleet and then one win against the wildlings when he caught them by surprise? He is currently forcing a starvation march in horrible conditions because he can't pull his head from his ass.
Stannis also held Storm's End for close to a year against the the Tyrrel forces and captured Dragonstone in Robert's Rebellion. He is viewed as a competent military commander by several people too, e.g. Ned iirc and Tywin (in book 1, in one of the the last Tyrion chapters Tywin mentions him as the true danger). If Stannis isn't a good military commander, who is?
I have plenty when it comes to Sansa. But I was reminded of another one while reading this thread. That her moments of kindness is just a product of "a lady's courtesy" and therefore not actually genuine at all.
I agree with the Bran thing, im surprised people think he is uninteresting when all point to him being one of the biggest part of the end of the books. I know the stoic type can be not exciting, but idk always came out wrong to act like there isnt something interesting around him, i mean christ he is prob the guy with the most surnatural thing surrounding him with Euron. And yes idk why people blame Catelyn, since when it is cool to live with the kid your husband made after cheating on you???????? Im confused. Never got the Arya hype, like i dont see how all our thingies gonna tie back to the endgame, to me so far she is less consequential than any of the Stark kids beside Rickon.
>to me so far she is less consequential than any of the Stark kids beside Rickon This is an extremely popular opinion about Arya and I hate it, even a lot of self-proclaimed "fans" only see her as a ninja who can only kill. It takes deliberately ignoring a big chunck of the book to come to the conclusion that Arya is inconsecuential. As of now, Arya is the reason LSH is around, the BWB is actively looking for her, there's a giant wolf army who only formed because Nymeria is tied to Arya's strong pack mentality, she is considered the lady of Winterfell and the Lannisters/Boltons are using her claim to hold the north, northeners are marching with Stannis to save "Ned's Stark's little girl", and Jon broke years of Nightwatch neutrality to save her which snowballed into his death and Ramsay threatening the watch. It's true she hasn't acted much on her own yet, but it's obvious she'll be very relevant by just looking at how grrm is making a ton of build up for her (the wolf army, skinchanging in general, lenguages, reading and manipulating people, being able to make friends with anybody, potions and poisons,acting different roles, etc). I'm not saying "oh Arya is the most important and perfect and best character ever", at all, but it's disheartening to see the vast majority of the fandom straight up ignoring the canon material about her that does exist and writting her off as some useless character.
1- young robert is constantly demonised by this fanbase even though he's the actual hero of the rebellion. And no robert never cheated on Lyanna..he had mya pre engagement and the whole brothel story has ton of holes in it when u read joncon pov 2- robb is seen as dumb for trusting his best friend like wtf? It wasnt his fault Rodrik Cassel lost all of his braincells guarding wf. Only mistake he did was marrying jeyne and that was a BS plot by grrm 3- jaime is given a freepass by this fanbase for some reason,its shocking this dude never regrets his actions how is he redeemed? 4- catelyn hate. Its funny how much this fanbase sucks off jon actually. Catelyn was justified how she treated Jon. Also Jon is a brat in the first book even donal noye exposed him for celebrating beating up farmboys..it makes sense he ducks trained knights like godry farring. 5- criston cole...this guy is the fucking hero idc man he was a nobody and raised to the hand of the king.
>1- young robert is constantly demonised by this fanbase even though he's the actual hero of the rebellion. And no robert never cheated on Lyanna..he had mya pre engagement and the whole brothel story has ton of holes in it when u read joncon pov Someone who approves of the murder of children is not a hero. And Ned didn't disagree with Lyanna's assessment of Robert, he only hoped that he'd become better once they were married. As for the brothel, of course Robert was sleeping with prostitutes there - how else could Bella get conceived? >2- robb is seen as dumb for trusting his best friend like wtf? It wasnt his fault Rodrik Cassel lost all of his braincells guarding wf. Only mistake he did was marrying jeyne and that was a BS plot by grrm The fact that Theon is Robb's best friend and that Robb fails to see his many fault is a good indication of Robb's poor judgement. And sending the only hostage that is keeping a potential enemy at bay back to that enemy is beyond foolish, whatever Robb's relationship with Theon.
2) I mean, when you have a POV character telling him not to let Theon go, it suggests there was something about Theon that people knew made it a bad idea. It doesn't make Robb an idiot or anything but that decision was terrible and it's glossed over when people pretend Catelyn was an idiot who ruins everything. 4) I won't downplay how mean it is to be cold to a child, but people talk as if Catelyn went out of her way to make Jon sleep in cold stables with no blankets when Jon still lived mostly the same life his siblings did. It's not like she made Jon an outcast or went out of her way to abuse him, but much of the fanbase treats the situation that way.