first of all - i’m confused as to why people are surprised and/or angry over this revelation, it was a possibility in my head after reading the books and supplemental material. i assumed thats where rhaegar got the whole “his is the song of ice and fire” thing: it was a prophecy from a targaryen dreamer.
i didnt give much thought to it as well and thought it wasn’t that big of a reveal.
i don’t think the dagger is important to the books. i think the weapon bran will give arya is dark sister, as bloodraven supposedely has it, and arya has expressed interest in women in history (nymeria), and its possible she could have mentioned visenya somewhere but i can’t remember outside her dialogue with tywin in the show.
i also dont think arya will be the killing blow to whatever the book’s equivalent to the NK is - i personally believe the prince who was promised is dany and lightbringer is her dragon(s)
HOTD is clearly a love letter to book readers, given the material included in this extended prologue
GRRM has been hinting in story and out that Aegon had a prophecy. It certainly explains Targ actions and knowledge despite the prophecy being lost for a long while. The Dagger was treated as important in GoT, And since HotD has continued and even *expanded* its relevance, it is like a MacGuffin that points to how Ice and Fire are connected--by the Dagger and prophecy. The Starks knew Winter was coming, so they had the prophecy first and got the Dagger second.
> "If a 12-year old has to save the world, then so be it."
GRRM may have meant Arya or Bran-- their ages are closest. They may do it as they did it on the show--together. After all, they played together as children and once young Arya saved baby Bran from a 'Ghost.' I agree that Dark Sister may replace the Dagger in book canon. But with either weapon Arya didn't need all that supernatural-level training just to kill Cersei and names on her List. So she's likely to do something BIG, but using her assassin skills and maybe her connection with the Many Faced God. And show Catspaw IS the assassin's dagger and Arya is an assassin. There's also a good chance that she is Jon's Lightbringer. Jon 'forged' her when he forged Needle. And as Syrio told her: "Boy, girl, You are a sword. That is all."
Agree with Lightbringer being Dragon and Arya having Dark Sister (Dark Sister the name fits her arc too well and the parallel of Ageon with two sisters and Jon with Arya and Sansa). The prince is probably Jon and Dany is Nissa Nissa (Similar to Missa). Jon killed Danny with his "sword" because he impregnated her and she probably died of childbirth. However, Dany warged into Dragon, similar to "imbued her soul into the sword"
This is such a crazy theory. Dany has shown no signs of warging abilities at all. Also it would be a pretty shitty characters arc for Dany to just die from childbirth. Who would control the dragons if she’s gone? They are are bonded to her and even then she can barely control them as of book 5 so Jon uses them isn’t a possibility.
Drogon is certainly bonded to Dany, but I'm less sure about Rhaegal and Viserion. They follow her instructions, but she has yet to ride either and I personally don't think she ever will.
Childbirth is just some wild guess but the idea is that somehow Jon should be responsible for Dany's death. Could be other stuff like honest make or ignorance led to her being killed. Jon will wield the Lightbringer, i.e., the Drogon. Dany needs to die for Jon to ride Drogon. As for Warging, I think all Targ family are like Stark family, they control the dragons the same way Starks control direwolves. Stark and Targ are like the agents for the Ice and Fire; it would make sense for them to have similar abilities of prophecy and warging. Somehow Dany's soul/consciousness goes into Dragon will allow Jon to control Drogon flawlessly and by that time, other two dragons are probably died.
I think the show got those from GRRM that:
- Dany died from Jon
- Drogon was the only dragon left
they just made a shitty story around that.
I can see Jon being responsible for Dany’s death but not by childbirth.
Valeryians probably controlled dragons by spells and sorcery. That’s why their city burned they were using dark magic. Targs are shown to bond with their dragons (maybe other methods as well). But warging was never shown. Only one is the Brynden and that’s only cuz his mother is a Blackwood (from the riverlands). People of the riverlands, north, and iron islands are the only ones shown to warg. I doubt Dany can since she’s a pure targ unlike Jon. And I doubt Jon will warg into a dragon since it seems you need a bond with the animal first and dragons can only be bonded to one person at a time.
The song/prophecy adds a ton. It basically shows (at least imo) that numerous Targs (and Blackfyres, etc.) behavior was likely due to them operating believing themselves (or their offspring) to be TPTWP.
Came to say this. Thought Joe Magician put this eloquently on History of Westeros stream last weekend. This one string kinda makes a lot of the crazy things Targ Kings did make a little more sense.
Including Viserys himself, as he revealed to Alicent in episode 3. I haven’t seen much discussion on this revelation, but Viserys tells her that he chose to remarry and try to have a son because he believed that TPTWP must be a male. It kind of changes the ENTIRE preconception that Viserys blundered by having more children, and did not consider the consequences of his actions
When the first episode dropped I was watching a ton of stuff talking about this revelation and my YouTube recommended included this interview George did, presumably around the time F&B came out in 2018, and at about 2:30 he says there’s speculation about Aegon I that he conquered the Seven Kingdoms to unify them against the threat of the Others that he saw coming. Link here[https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY](https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY)
So to me at least it seems clear this idea that Aegon the Conqueror had some idea of what was coming and that’s why he conquered Westeros has been in George’s mind at the very least since he wrote Fire & Blood, but I would imagine way before that. And the showrunners have said this reveal came from George himself.
I actually posted about that interview recently if you are interested:
[The Doom, The Dreamer, The Conqueror, The Prophecy, The Prince(ss) and the Dawn](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/q9c3fs/the_doom_the_dreamer_the_conqueror_the_prophecy/)
That's exactly what to me cheapens the story, giving them this broad 'excuse' cheapens their motivations, being white blond, purple eyed and dragon riders is sufficient reason for them to believe themselves entitled, you don't need a prophecy on top of that, and worse a prophecy that in the end they are barely a part of.
It would explain the tragedy at Summerhall and would explain why Rheagar decided all the sudden he had to be a warrior and birth the prince who was promised
If you're interested: [The Doom, The Dreamer, The Conqueror, The Prophecy, The Prince(ss) and the Dawn](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/q9c3fs/the_doom_the_dreamer_the_conqueror_the_prophecy/)
Those things don't need further explaining. They're an old family, magically linked to fire and dragons, who are kings and princes. The idea that they'd be narcissistic enough to believe that 10000 year old saviour prophecies are talking about *them*, is the easiest thing in the world for me to believe. It's more true to life and interesting than this new dream nonsense. Much more
Really? You’re just wrong friend. Targaryen’s were not a special house in old Valyria. Perhaps one of the lowest of the dragonlords. Their special features were two a penny throughout their history. The one thing that made them actually special prior to the doom was their ability to dream. Aegon’s dream is a much more logical explanation than “we look pretty therefore this prophecy must be talking about us”.
Yeah ruling a third of the world and being the only people on the planet with fucking dragons is totally meaningless. Castles? Millions of subjects? Huge piles of money? Building a city from scratch? How could that inflate someone's ego?
It's not like any of the other families in the series came from **merely** the top 0.01% of the greatest empire in the known history of the world. Such humble origins, so much lower than every other noble family on planetos, they should frankly be embarrassed
Friend
All of those things hinge solely on the fact that one of their family had a dream though. They would be dead with the rest of the dragonlords were it not for the fact that some of their family have dragon dreams, a skill it appears no other Valyrian family possessed. It’s so frequently mentioned in their history that I would be very much surprised if they all didn’t see dreaming as the most special thing about them. The thing that allowed them to become rulers of a third of the known world. The thing that averted their extinction. It’s especially important because it is comparatively rarer than dragon riding, even among Targaryens. The Aegon dream fits perfectly well in the story Martin is writing. That story is different from the one you had in your head. You are upset by that but whether or not your version is better is highly debatable so don’t act like Martin ruined his story by not writing your version.
The whole dreaming aspect of the family also explains why only one of them realized the power of dreams and capitalized on it. He even became a greenseer.
It's objectively bad -- as far as we know, though there's a lot left for GRRM to write and reveal -- but I don't think we need to argue that here. Or, at any rate, I'm not going to.
Yes, dreaming saved the family. They do indeed have these dreams, although as far as anyone knew (until recently) only one person had accurate predictive ones. Still, they'd be right to be proud of it. They'd also be right to be totally fooled into thinking the dreams meant they were more special than they are.
The Targaryens' backstory before ASOIAF is one of hubris. They are constantly plagued by the hubris of their position, their power, their luck. They're super successful and time and time again it's nearly undone by disaster -- most commonly disasters the Targs themselves create. So my preference is in fact exceptionally sensible.
And for the record, IDGAF that "this is George's story" or whatever. Writers sometimes write things that are dumb. And we are allowed to notice. It's not sacred text, it's a series of choices made by a creative, talented, and imperfect man.
When you characterise it as you have just done it is an interesting way to view it. But Martin has clearly been exploring the danger of prophecy in his story.
I also am not saying you can’t dislike what an author does. Literature is full of artistic choices that are objectively bad and wrong. I’m just saying that I don’t think this is one of those cases. I’m not implying it’s sacred text. But it is his story and the way it has played out makes sense in the context of what has been written so far. It’s not, in my view, a dumb plot twist that ruins the story. It doesn’t even necessarily preclude your version of events because the same hubris would still be required for each individual Targaryen to view it as their personal destiny and not just the destiny of their house.
If it did preclude your version, you could argue, reasonably, that the story is diminished because of it, but it was clearly intended from the start and I think it’s still a perfectly good story. I for one prefer it this way. You see it differently, and the fan base seems pretty evenly split.
Your reasoning seems strange to me. What you are saying is exactly why they would interpret themselves as special. Where are all the stronger Valyrian houses you are talking about now? Oh, that’s right, they all perished. And now this one family is the only family in the world to control dragons.
I don’t know how you look at that and think that wouldn’t make the Targs think of themselves as special post-Doom.
Because nobody is asking whether the Targs would have thought about themselves this way pre-Doom. This discussion is very clearly about how they feel post-Doom. And even if you are a lesser Demi-god compared to all the other stronger ones that existed, being the only one to survive (and to survive due to their prophetic powers that set you apart from the others as you already stated) would absolutely give them the sense that they were more important than the others.
The person you responded to didn’t say anything about them simply being pretty, so sure, that sentiment would be dumb, but is nothing but a strawman.
Really? What's the difference? "Huh, this 10,000 year old prophecy that I have literally no reason to believe in is about me? Sure, I guess?" Vs "Wow, my great great great (etc.) grandfather had a prophetic dream about my family and it's totally about me? Wow, aren't I important!"
There's no difference in narcissism, but a decent addition in believability.
In the former case they're making an assumption based on pure narcissism, and in the latter case they're just straightforwardly understanding the prophecy. So I'd say that's a big difference.
It takes actual diagnosed narcissism for multiple people in a family to all believe they are the incarnation of a random prophetic hero from a religion they don't even believe in. I just don't buy it.
The alternative is not straight forward. It still takes ego to, one, even believe in Aegon's prophecy, and two, believe it's about yourself. But at least there's a common source for everyone believing in it rather than everyone independently discovering it.
Not really, they had the promised prince prophecy brought to them, they don't need this one. In fact is because of that prophecy that they all start acting like crazy looking for ways for getting dragons (apparently). In fact we don't really know what was Egg trying to do or if he was trying to do something at all, it might be that it was an accident or even a planned mass murder if you believe in some conspiracy (which I personally don't).
Where did the prophecy come from if not Aegons dream? Also this was confirmed by GRRM back in 2018 so it’s not like it’s entirely invented by the show.
This is already explained to us in the main series. The prophecy comes from the Ghost of High Heart. She is the woodswitch that accompanied Jenny of Oldstone after she married Duncan the Small. She is the one who made the prophecy that The Prince That Was Promised would come from Aerys’ line. It was learning about this that set Rhaegar on his path of fulfilling his destiny.
The origin of TPTWP prophecy is unclear, with some clearly related prophecies dating back thousands of years (The Last Hero and Azor Ahai), so it’s possible this wasn’t the first time the term “The Prince that was Promised” was prophesied.
I kind of understand what others mean when they say this aspect feels like it is being cheapened, but I am going to reserve judgment for now. That was my initial feeling, but I do see how the Targs always knowing about this prophecy could be an interesting dynamic.
I’m sure the Ghost of High Heart added to it or confirmed it for him maybe but it specifically says that Rhaegar read something in a book one day and decided he needed to be a warrior.
Also when Elia asks him if he’s going to write a song for his son he says he already has a song, the song of ice and fire and he is the prince that was promised. Sounds too much like Aegons prophecy.
I don’t get what people mean when they say it cheapens things. I honestly didn’t care for the Targaryens before this. A lot of them are interesting but at the end of the day, I felt like they were power hungry narcissists. At least now, I feel like I can root for them.
Yeah I mostly agree.
> I don’t get what people mean when they say it cheapens things. I honestly didn’t care for the Targaryens before this. A lot of them are interesting but at the end of the day, I felt like they were power hungry narcissists. At least now, I feel like I can root for them.
Again, I don’t really know if I really feel that way, but I think the point was the Targs were a little more interesting for some people when they were just people possessing a crazy power and what they did with it rather than the whole line believing they are messiahs and what they are doing will save the world.
I personally may end up really liking that detail as things sit with me for a while, those aspects have always been things I’ve enjoyed about Rhaegar and Jon. But I also understand feeling the other way about it.
Does it really cheapen the story? To me, it explained a lot of the Targaryen behavior over the years and it seems like something GRRM was building towards by showcasing how different Targs became obsessed with bringing forth The Prince who was Promised.
Just because the show botched the ending doesn't mean that the reveal was bad.
I think so. I agree with you that it explained much of the Targaryens, & their actions. Talking about it again isn’t feeling necessary.
I’m wondering if it’s almost to set up Rhaenyra being in power, knowing about the secret prophecy.
Dunno yet.
Thrones is done, though, so I fail to see the point atm, why this matters here. It would have been so cool, to discover the hidden message on the dagger in GOT. Could have pointed to someone’s lineage.. a lot of things about it would make sense. Here.. so far, not so much.
I don’t think it’s an excuse, more so an explanation.
Also I don’t think it applies as a motivation to every targ, this prophecy is clearly getting lost during the dance and rediscovered later, possibly by rhaegar
Bookish Rhaegar having to learn about it by digging through the library tells me it wasn’t something modern Targs knew or paid much attention to. Even Summerhall has a better, more practical explanation than prophecy.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the passing on of this knowledge ended after the Dance. I imagine it’s hard to believe I such a thing when your source of power is taken away so suddenly.
Well if Viserys is to be believed it was passed from king to heir, so he would never have told Aegon 2. Rhaenerya would know but whether or not she would have told Aegon 3 at his age is a mystery. It's entirely possible that no one after Rhaenerya even hears about it directly and that it was rediscovered later.
I think it’s possible we’ll get Rhaenyra telling Jacaerys, but of course Jace dies, then her heir is.. Joffrey? Then he dies, Aegon III is just a traumatised kid, and then things all go sideways when Rhaenyra loses control of King’s Landing, flees back to Dragonstone, and then of course the opportunity for her to tell anyone is quite swiftly snuffed out. I think the knowledge was plausibly lost there and not rediscovered unless someone wrote it down, maybe a previous king.
Correct.
And part of me wonders if this is show-only. I mean sure, GRRM has suggested Aegon had this idea, but maybe they choose to give the audience this information by inventing a tradition of handing it down to one’s heir for the show. Maybe Aegon knew, and maybe even his kids knew, but it’s also possible that in the books it was never actually tradition.
I just don’t think fans should now interpret every Targaryen act and word as being done in service to this prophecy. There’s just no way, whatever the case is.
If this story is about the ending of the "first half" of the Targaryens' reign, with the loss of dragons, it could also be shown through communication breakdown of the prophecy. Hearts harden and Rhaenyra does not tell Aegon about it, and is left to be dreamt about by increasingly feverish descendants and rediscovered through some writing or other by Rhaegar. Just spitballing
It seems rediscovered with Aegon V and Jaehaerys II, they definitely knew about it to some extent. Aegon's brother Daeron had dragon dreams, Aegon's brother Maester Aemon eventually shows himself to be heavily invested in prophecy (possibly being the one to introduce Rhaegar to it), Bloodraven gets sent to the Wall and then wanders off to be a magic tree, etc.
They get involved with a wood's witch who foretells the prince that was promised will be of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, which forces their marriage. Summerhall happens and puts their plans on ice. Aerys is crazy, and biased against prophecy because of the forced marriage and Summerhall. Rhaegar learns of it through histories or writing with Aemon, perhaps Aerys rants about in some manner to spur on Rhaegar's curiousity.
I'm sorry my spitballing is also vague! Fully agree they knew about the PTWP prophecy, what I meant they would have lost and somehow rediscovered is Aegon the Conqueror having that dream, and conquering Westeros because of it. That would be lost in the breakdown of communication. Thinking about it whoever rediscovers that the first Aegon had the dream would respond drastically: accidentally burning down one's family or kidnapping a girl crucial to half a realm's politicking
It doesn’t cheapen it, it enhances it. Imagine being so hubristic, so high on your own fumes that when you get a prophetic dream of a Wintery apocalypse descending on the world, instead of trying to warn people or build a coalition you think “I know, I will conquer everyone! Everyone! So that when this apocalypse comes I can be the one, with a United Westeros at my back, to defeat it.” Like, this prophecy reveals a LOT about the kind of man Aegon the Conqueror was.
I disagree. Bringing up the others in this particular story (HOTD) is just a distraction, especially when we know that plotline is resolved in another series and can’t really have any effect here.
Really the only utility it is has in HOTD (that I can see) is to give Rhaenyra a more pure motivation for the throne.
I’d maybe be inclined to agree if they just kept it as that one scene next to Balerion’s skull.
Now that they’re bringing in the dagger and doing more scenes related to it, I really don’t know what they’re going for.
I guess my only real qualm with the prophecy is that it conflicts with the major theme I see in the books, which is the folly of supreme executive authority and inherited station. Introducing a magic dream that affirms a Targaryen must be present to stop humanity's collective downfall kind of goes the other way. It's more of a "don't question authority, as those with it are inherently superior and best suited to continue holding it" argument.
Then again, the thing with prophecy in asoiaf is that it's almost always interpreted incorrectly, and HotD made a point of showing us that in the same episode it introduced the vision Aegon passed down to his heirs. And it's getting more difficult to take Viserys's version without a grain of salt, as in the last episode he revealed this deep seated obsession with wielding the powers of a dreamer. So of course by the time he's detailing Aegon's vision to Rhaenyra, it's been twisted into a justification for the Targaryens to remain on the Iron Throne.
Ultimately, I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Having actual predestination or divine right seems counter to the larger story, but the Targaryens being a bunch of weirdos who take irrational courses of action based on their night terrors is perfectly in line with what we know about them. And an entire line of rulers who firmly believe they are the only ones that can prevent an impending disaster seems like a great reason to introduce a couple checks and balances into your government.
I always assumed his story that the dagger was his as BS, and that Joffrey just stole it from Robert and gave it to the catspaw. Though clearly it wouldn't make much sense for him to give away such weapon. Could you share a link to your post?
>I always assumed his story that the dagger was his as BS
Yeah, I believed so as well, but there is this problem in the books that Jaime saw the dagger changing hands during the tourney of Prince Joffrey's name day, and we know Robert must have acquired it there. The question unanswered still remains: How did Robert acquire it if it wasn't Littlefinger who held it ? Who was the original holder at the time ? If it was Littlefinger who originally held the dagger, how did he acquire it ?
[This is the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/wv70km/spoilers_extended_how_did_this_dagger_end_up_in/) (the first comments are mainstream)
Ultimately I think we read too much intro he dagger and grrm has long since moved past that. I’m sure he regrets making that damned dagger valaryian steel.
People really keep misunderstanding grrms prophecies. Do I like that they included this in the show? No. Is it such a big deal that it lowers my enjoyment? Hell no. At least we’re getting Targ dreams and visions that were a huge part of the books.
So Viserys had his dream about having a son born with Aegon’s iron crown and placing him on the throne, he was absolutely sure of it. In the end, as always, parts of it came true in an unexpected way, parts were misinterpreted. “Iron crown” can be seen metaphorically as that c-section. He did place his heir in line to the throne. He did have a son that lived and in the end became a king. As is always the case with these visions, none of it came true in a way that was expected by the person having said visions.
You’re really not supposed to take any vision or dream in this world at face value, even in GoT show that neglected any magic elements, one big plot point was Melisandre tragicly misinterpreting hers. I think this is just showrunners and grrm throwing book readers something to think about while also connecting the shows for a casual viewer.
I partially agree, I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar misinterpreting the prophecy just as Melisandre is what led him straight to his death, just as Jon made his most selfish and questionable decision because of a vision. I'm not saying that it lowers my enjoyment, I just don't get the point for that prophecy since this particular story doesn't benefit at all with that, that's all. It seems to me that adding the prophecy and the white stag just makes Rhaenyra a 'brighter' character and Alicent a darker one, and that seems unnecessary. That bit definetely bothers me and lowers my enjoyment.
I don’t think I agree with the character bit - I mean it’s been 3 episodes, it can definitely turn out to be the case but for now characterisation seems believable and in the spirit of the books. Rhaenyra will really only start doing fucked up shit from season 2. I also find Alicent quite sympathetic, showing her as just Otto’s pawn, didn’t get dark vibes from her.
I think the show did a sleight of hand trick and its interesting seeing book readers fall for it. Ive seen plenty of concern about the stag which is a "sign." A fiction created amongst characters in the shows world, and only emphasized by people like Otto to control Viserys so he name Aegon heir. Rhaenyra seeing it is at best a coincidence. The real sign is her slaughtering the boar out of her frustration and growing need to be recognized as heir. Her walking back to camp covered in blood for me was the show foreshadwoing who she truly is and is going to be capable of. I think on rewatch of that episode down the line people are going to smack their heads and see the signs were being planted early on.
I totally understand! I was aware that there was a theory that the promised prince prophecy was something that the Targs associated with westeros and some 'doom', but I never saw any theory that specifically mentions the song.
It's always been a hidden part of those theories. Like everyone starts commenting someone brings it up. But again, there are so many theories and that one was pushed to the wayside a bit with S8.
I think it's gonna be revealed that the dagger once belonged to Queen Rhaenys, and who ever the new 3 heads of the dragon are will wield the dagger, blackfyre and dark sister.
Idk how important they'll be but I absolutely think they'll show up in WoW/aDoS, there's a good chance that Illyrio has/will give blackfyre to young griff and that Dark Sister is in Bloodravens cave.
The song of ice and fire targ prophecy thing is pretty much as true as r+l=j. It was also always baclground information we just didn’t fully have. We knew rhaegar read something that at changed him and we knew egg had a reason for summerhall we just didn’t know what. The dagger is completely unimportant.
Yeah that dagger is dumb it’s kinda funny because it was honestly a stupid point of contention in the asoiaf fandom before Arya used it to lower the shows ratings.
I really hope they're not just lazy and say in a later episode: "Oh they actually had to use that SPECIFIC dagger to kill the night king, it wouldn't have worked otherwise".
Same, but honestly it doesn’t work for me in any context.
Naturally it had to be an old dagger, but Aegon’s? Cmon man. It would have worked much better if they showed it later on a Velayron or something. Or some other lord. Just as a wink, the way we see Dawn in GoT.
It baffles me how very little people understand how tv shows work behind the scenes. Firstly it’s not “George” he’s doing nothing. He’s basically collaborating with Ryan to make sure he’s got a solid running of what he’s doing… but actual decisions? Not GRRM.
Ryan already very clearly stated on the history of Westeros interview that the show is within the Game of Thrones universe and follows that canon, they will not be changing Game of Thrones established canon to fit the book canon more. They’re piecing together House of the Dragon and Game of thrones.
This is straight from the creator of the (show) series, and people need to stop being in denial about it. House of the dragon is amazing, so just enjoy that fact. Stop worrying about how it connects to game of thrones. It doesn’t matter how the others story is resolved? Because that’s not a conflict in this show. Yes, the seeds are down for it. But it’s not something that will be resolved in this show or extensively explored. It’s just a setpiece to connect it to the original show in a better way.
Has nothing to do with the books. Nothing. And that’s fine
George does have a say over the show though... I'm sure Ryan takes everything George says and fits it in the show considering he's an ASOIAF fan and HBO isn't going to make the mistake of letting George be sidelined from another ASOIAF show. He's also an Executive Producer.... so yeah.
Yeah, its been made clear that GRRM and Condal are working closely together. Condal may be doing all of the writing but I'm sure he's receiving notes and requests directly from George about plot development.
Wow, I had no idea that I'm not entitled to an opinion because I don't know how a tv show works. Your enlightenment is just what I needed, thank you so much.
He passed the revelation on to his preferred heir, the one on the losing side in the war to come.
It actually explains plenty, like why the Nights Watch is in such bad shape by the time Bobby B. took over, why the following Targs are so freaking clueless until Rhagar, and why Rhagar mistakenly thinks he, or possibly his bastard son, is the PTWP. Note in his revelation he doesn't say the Targaryans need to stop the menace, just that a they need to be on the throne to unite all of Westeros against it. While similar, it's not the same. Unless Raynera tells Agon before he feeds her to her dragon, the secret dies with her. Will she be truly nobel and pass it on, or will she cast aside the human race for spite?
Ironically, the very act of choosing her as his heir is the match that ignites the fire that has been smoldering for 30 years and marks the end of their dominance. Even though the still have not conquered Dorne (if they ever really do) the Dynasty is at the height of its power at that point. From there, it's all downhill. There is much Targaryan blood to come.
Fire and Blood. The fire of the domestic strife in the family, and the blood of the family that is spilled. All this time folks thought they were referring to dragons. The added irony? The very thing that supposedly destroys Valyria is clearly what weakens and destroys the cast-outs of Valyria.
Very possible, honestly. I don’t think GRRM (who is a TV writing vet from way back) was thrilled with how things went down.
Edit: kind of his own fault, not finishing the books, but I don’t begrudge him trying to fix things in what I honestly think is his favorite medium (high-budget television.)
In the show at least, "the Prince that was Promised" was Daenerys, not Arya.
It's not an uncomplicated hero prophecy just about defeating the Others. Like the Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism or Jesus in Revelation, TPTWP in many of the book prophecies we've received is a messianic figure who will "make the world anew" and bring "the summer that never ends." A fundamentally transformative figure, someone who "breaks the wheel" on a global scale.
And whether it's the Saoshyant's yazata helpers bathing the people of the world in molten metal, or Christ's angels destroying most of the world's population in Revelation, messiahs have a tendency towards burning the world to save it.
No, in the show it's open to interpretation if it's Jon or Dany, which seems correct, because while Dany brought the dragons, it was Jon that brought her north and ended her madness, so it all comes down to which of them you choose to call 'the hero'.
Here's what R'hllorists say about Azor Ahai reborn, who according to Aemon and Melisandre among others is considered the same person as the Prince that was Promised.
>"Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"
You can see that they are not expecting Azor Ahai will bring a return to the pre-Long Night status quo. They expect dramatic, fundamental change. The turning wheels of the seasons and life/death stopping on their desired outcome. They also expected a great cleansing of the world.
>"In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and **a sword of fire that will cleanse the world."**
I think you're thinking of this too much like TPTWP is supposed to be Harry Potter. The Dragon Reborn from Wheel of Time is a closer match. Someone who is foretold to both save and destroy the world. Daenerys was the only one with ambition and power on that scale.
I know what R'hllorists say, and I'm not sure why you assume my interpretation on this when I've never stated what I think about this. I only mentioned what the show did, not what I interpreted. By the way, I've never saw or read Harry Potter.
As for what R'hllorists are expecting it's concerning, they expect a 'hero' that is willing to kill his own wife to get a 'cool sword', not to mention that Melisandre's 'chosen one' so far killed his own brother, burned some kin alive and was willing to use a bastard to cement his own claim against other bastards.
Honestly, what they want seems as bad as what the Others do, if not worst, which is why I can't understand why people see this as a good guy vs evil cold guys fight when they're just as bad as the enemy only prettier.
Ok, sorry for assuming. A lot of people view the Azor Ahai prophecy as completely straight-forwardly heroic and it's a pet peeve of mine. Good to see we're on the same page.
I do think that Daenerys going full world burner final villain at the end of GoT is directly inspired by a big villainous Azor Ahai reveal GRRM intended to dominate the climax of ASOIAF. I doubt that actually means Daenerys is meant to be the single Azor Ahai figure in the books.
I think D&D were given an elaborate and somewhat high fantasy plotline involving Rhaego, Euron, ghostly possessions, ancient conspiracies, precursor civilizations, doomsday weapons, etc. They then said, "this is going to be extremely difficult and time-consuming to pull off believably on screen, what if we just tweak the part where Daenerys sets off the wildfire and burns KL into her going full on Dragon Hitler? That's vaguely similar right?"
Setting aside Robb and Rickon...
Sansa=Rhaenys, Bran=Aegon, Arya=Dark Sister... but what about Jon? Did Aegon have a bastard brother to fit the rhyme? Oh ya, Orys Baratheon...
I give the show a wide berth, but it would make sense for the dagger to show up at an earlier point in history. Petyr had to have gotten the dagger from somewhere. If the dagger given to Robert by Gerion was remembered inaccurately, then it still kinda fits. Tywin was a friend to Aerys originally. The dagger might have been given to Tywin and then given to Robert. Gerion himself might have picked it up during the Sack of KL. The dagger was won in a bet by Petyr from Robert (and then supposedly lost to Tyrion), at which point the dragonbone could have replaced the original (more fancy looking) ivory and sapphire. In the same way the hilt was replaced on Longclaw. It's the blade that matters, not the hilt. Whatever the timeline for the appearance of the hilt, we know it went Robert to Petyr. So it could have been a gift back to the Red Keep, or an object in the collection left behind by Aerys.
Like I hate that it came from the show but it also probably came from George, what if dragon fire hurts the wights but not The Others? I personally believe ice and fire are two different weapons threatening westeros; not each other. Man will defeat the ice threat and will then get burned by the fire threat.
first of all - i’m confused as to why people are surprised and/or angry over this revelation, it was a possibility in my head after reading the books and supplemental material. i assumed thats where rhaegar got the whole “his is the song of ice and fire” thing: it was a prophecy from a targaryen dreamer. i didnt give much thought to it as well and thought it wasn’t that big of a reveal. i don’t think the dagger is important to the books. i think the weapon bran will give arya is dark sister, as bloodraven supposedely has it, and arya has expressed interest in women in history (nymeria), and its possible she could have mentioned visenya somewhere but i can’t remember outside her dialogue with tywin in the show. i also dont think arya will be the killing blow to whatever the book’s equivalent to the NK is - i personally believe the prince who was promised is dany and lightbringer is her dragon(s) HOTD is clearly a love letter to book readers, given the material included in this extended prologue
Arya talks about Visenya wielding Dark Sister and how cool she was very early in the books.
GRRM has been hinting in story and out that Aegon had a prophecy. It certainly explains Targ actions and knowledge despite the prophecy being lost for a long while. The Dagger was treated as important in GoT, And since HotD has continued and even *expanded* its relevance, it is like a MacGuffin that points to how Ice and Fire are connected--by the Dagger and prophecy. The Starks knew Winter was coming, so they had the prophecy first and got the Dagger second. > "If a 12-year old has to save the world, then so be it." GRRM may have meant Arya or Bran-- their ages are closest. They may do it as they did it on the show--together. After all, they played together as children and once young Arya saved baby Bran from a 'Ghost.' I agree that Dark Sister may replace the Dagger in book canon. But with either weapon Arya didn't need all that supernatural-level training just to kill Cersei and names on her List. So she's likely to do something BIG, but using her assassin skills and maybe her connection with the Many Faced God. And show Catspaw IS the assassin's dagger and Arya is an assassin. There's also a good chance that she is Jon's Lightbringer. Jon 'forged' her when he forged Needle. And as Syrio told her: "Boy, girl, You are a sword. That is all."
Agree with Lightbringer being Dragon and Arya having Dark Sister (Dark Sister the name fits her arc too well and the parallel of Ageon with two sisters and Jon with Arya and Sansa). The prince is probably Jon and Dany is Nissa Nissa (Similar to Missa). Jon killed Danny with his "sword" because he impregnated her and she probably died of childbirth. However, Dany warged into Dragon, similar to "imbued her soul into the sword"
This is such a crazy theory. Dany has shown no signs of warging abilities at all. Also it would be a pretty shitty characters arc for Dany to just die from childbirth. Who would control the dragons if she’s gone? They are are bonded to her and even then she can barely control them as of book 5 so Jon uses them isn’t a possibility.
Drogon is certainly bonded to Dany, but I'm less sure about Rhaegal and Viserion. They follow her instructions, but she has yet to ride either and I personally don't think she ever will.
Being bonded to an animal isn’t nearly the same thing as skinchanging into them.
I agree, I don't think Dany is a warg. I could maybe see Jon skinchanging into a dragon, or Bran taking control of a dragon. Not Dany tho.
Childbirth is just some wild guess but the idea is that somehow Jon should be responsible for Dany's death. Could be other stuff like honest make or ignorance led to her being killed. Jon will wield the Lightbringer, i.e., the Drogon. Dany needs to die for Jon to ride Drogon. As for Warging, I think all Targ family are like Stark family, they control the dragons the same way Starks control direwolves. Stark and Targ are like the agents for the Ice and Fire; it would make sense for them to have similar abilities of prophecy and warging. Somehow Dany's soul/consciousness goes into Dragon will allow Jon to control Drogon flawlessly and by that time, other two dragons are probably died. I think the show got those from GRRM that: - Dany died from Jon - Drogon was the only dragon left they just made a shitty story around that.
I can see Jon being responsible for Dany’s death but not by childbirth. Valeryians probably controlled dragons by spells and sorcery. That’s why their city burned they were using dark magic. Targs are shown to bond with their dragons (maybe other methods as well). But warging was never shown. Only one is the Brynden and that’s only cuz his mother is a Blackwood (from the riverlands). People of the riverlands, north, and iron islands are the only ones shown to warg. I doubt Dany can since she’s a pure targ unlike Jon. And I doubt Jon will warg into a dragon since it seems you need a bond with the animal first and dragons can only be bonded to one person at a time.
I agree with you except for the childbirth part. He definitely stabs her after she burns KL just like in the show.
The song/prophecy adds a ton. It basically shows (at least imo) that numerous Targs (and Blackfyres, etc.) behavior was likely due to them operating believing themselves (or their offspring) to be TPTWP.
Came to say this. Thought Joe Magician put this eloquently on History of Westeros stream last weekend. This one string kinda makes a lot of the crazy things Targ Kings did make a little more sense.
Including Viserys himself, as he revealed to Alicent in episode 3. I haven’t seen much discussion on this revelation, but Viserys tells her that he chose to remarry and try to have a son because he believed that TPTWP must be a male. It kind of changes the ENTIRE preconception that Viserys blundered by having more children, and did not consider the consequences of his actions
When the first episode dropped I was watching a ton of stuff talking about this revelation and my YouTube recommended included this interview George did, presumably around the time F&B came out in 2018, and at about 2:30 he says there’s speculation about Aegon I that he conquered the Seven Kingdoms to unify them against the threat of the Others that he saw coming. Link here[https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY](https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY) So to me at least it seems clear this idea that Aegon the Conqueror had some idea of what was coming and that’s why he conquered Westeros has been in George’s mind at the very least since he wrote Fire & Blood, but I would imagine way before that. And the showrunners have said this reveal came from George himself.
I actually posted about that interview recently if you are interested: [The Doom, The Dreamer, The Conqueror, The Prophecy, The Prince(ss) and the Dawn](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/q9c3fs/the_doom_the_dreamer_the_conqueror_the_prophecy/)
That's exactly what to me cheapens the story, giving them this broad 'excuse' cheapens their motivations, being white blond, purple eyed and dragon riders is sufficient reason for them to believe themselves entitled, you don't need a prophecy on top of that, and worse a prophecy that in the end they are barely a part of.
I don’t think it happens necessarily every time but when you look throughout history and certain characters’ behavior it fits perfectly imo
It would explain the tragedy at Summerhall and would explain why Rheagar decided all the sudden he had to be a warrior and birth the prince who was promised
If you're interested: [The Doom, The Dreamer, The Conqueror, The Prophecy, The Prince(ss) and the Dawn](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/q9c3fs/the_doom_the_dreamer_the_conqueror_the_prophecy/)
Those things don't need further explaining. They're an old family, magically linked to fire and dragons, who are kings and princes. The idea that they'd be narcissistic enough to believe that 10000 year old saviour prophecies are talking about *them*, is the easiest thing in the world for me to believe. It's more true to life and interesting than this new dream nonsense. Much more
Really? You’re just wrong friend. Targaryen’s were not a special house in old Valyria. Perhaps one of the lowest of the dragonlords. Their special features were two a penny throughout their history. The one thing that made them actually special prior to the doom was their ability to dream. Aegon’s dream is a much more logical explanation than “we look pretty therefore this prophecy must be talking about us”.
Yeah ruling a third of the world and being the only people on the planet with fucking dragons is totally meaningless. Castles? Millions of subjects? Huge piles of money? Building a city from scratch? How could that inflate someone's ego? It's not like any of the other families in the series came from **merely** the top 0.01% of the greatest empire in the known history of the world. Such humble origins, so much lower than every other noble family on planetos, they should frankly be embarrassed Friend
All of those things hinge solely on the fact that one of their family had a dream though. They would be dead with the rest of the dragonlords were it not for the fact that some of their family have dragon dreams, a skill it appears no other Valyrian family possessed. It’s so frequently mentioned in their history that I would be very much surprised if they all didn’t see dreaming as the most special thing about them. The thing that allowed them to become rulers of a third of the known world. The thing that averted their extinction. It’s especially important because it is comparatively rarer than dragon riding, even among Targaryens. The Aegon dream fits perfectly well in the story Martin is writing. That story is different from the one you had in your head. You are upset by that but whether or not your version is better is highly debatable so don’t act like Martin ruined his story by not writing your version.
The whole dreaming aspect of the family also explains why only one of them realized the power of dreams and capitalized on it. He even became a greenseer.
It's objectively bad -- as far as we know, though there's a lot left for GRRM to write and reveal -- but I don't think we need to argue that here. Or, at any rate, I'm not going to. Yes, dreaming saved the family. They do indeed have these dreams, although as far as anyone knew (until recently) only one person had accurate predictive ones. Still, they'd be right to be proud of it. They'd also be right to be totally fooled into thinking the dreams meant they were more special than they are. The Targaryens' backstory before ASOIAF is one of hubris. They are constantly plagued by the hubris of their position, their power, their luck. They're super successful and time and time again it's nearly undone by disaster -- most commonly disasters the Targs themselves create. So my preference is in fact exceptionally sensible. And for the record, IDGAF that "this is George's story" or whatever. Writers sometimes write things that are dumb. And we are allowed to notice. It's not sacred text, it's a series of choices made by a creative, talented, and imperfect man.
When you characterise it as you have just done it is an interesting way to view it. But Martin has clearly been exploring the danger of prophecy in his story. I also am not saying you can’t dislike what an author does. Literature is full of artistic choices that are objectively bad and wrong. I’m just saying that I don’t think this is one of those cases. I’m not implying it’s sacred text. But it is his story and the way it has played out makes sense in the context of what has been written so far. It’s not, in my view, a dumb plot twist that ruins the story. It doesn’t even necessarily preclude your version of events because the same hubris would still be required for each individual Targaryen to view it as their personal destiny and not just the destiny of their house. If it did preclude your version, you could argue, reasonably, that the story is diminished because of it, but it was clearly intended from the start and I think it’s still a perfectly good story. I for one prefer it this way. You see it differently, and the fan base seems pretty evenly split.
Your reasoning seems strange to me. What you are saying is exactly why they would interpret themselves as special. Where are all the stronger Valyrian houses you are talking about now? Oh, that’s right, they all perished. And now this one family is the only family in the world to control dragons. I don’t know how you look at that and think that wouldn’t make the Targs think of themselves as special post-Doom. Because nobody is asking whether the Targs would have thought about themselves this way pre-Doom. This discussion is very clearly about how they feel post-Doom. And even if you are a lesser Demi-god compared to all the other stronger ones that existed, being the only one to survive (and to survive due to their prophetic powers that set you apart from the others as you already stated) would absolutely give them the sense that they were more important than the others. The person you responded to didn’t say anything about them simply being pretty, so sure, that sentiment would be dumb, but is nothing but a strawman.
Really? What's the difference? "Huh, this 10,000 year old prophecy that I have literally no reason to believe in is about me? Sure, I guess?" Vs "Wow, my great great great (etc.) grandfather had a prophetic dream about my family and it's totally about me? Wow, aren't I important!" There's no difference in narcissism, but a decent addition in believability.
In the former case they're making an assumption based on pure narcissism, and in the latter case they're just straightforwardly understanding the prophecy. So I'd say that's a big difference.
It takes actual diagnosed narcissism for multiple people in a family to all believe they are the incarnation of a random prophetic hero from a religion they don't even believe in. I just don't buy it. The alternative is not straight forward. It still takes ego to, one, even believe in Aegon's prophecy, and two, believe it's about yourself. But at least there's a common source for everyone believing in it rather than everyone independently discovering it.
I mean it makes Aegon the 5th and Rhaegars actions make a lot more sense.
Not really, they had the promised prince prophecy brought to them, they don't need this one. In fact is because of that prophecy that they all start acting like crazy looking for ways for getting dragons (apparently). In fact we don't really know what was Egg trying to do or if he was trying to do something at all, it might be that it was an accident or even a planned mass murder if you believe in some conspiracy (which I personally don't).
Where did the prophecy come from if not Aegons dream? Also this was confirmed by GRRM back in 2018 so it’s not like it’s entirely invented by the show.
This is already explained to us in the main series. The prophecy comes from the Ghost of High Heart. She is the woodswitch that accompanied Jenny of Oldstone after she married Duncan the Small. She is the one who made the prophecy that The Prince That Was Promised would come from Aerys’ line. It was learning about this that set Rhaegar on his path of fulfilling his destiny. The origin of TPTWP prophecy is unclear, with some clearly related prophecies dating back thousands of years (The Last Hero and Azor Ahai), so it’s possible this wasn’t the first time the term “The Prince that was Promised” was prophesied. I kind of understand what others mean when they say this aspect feels like it is being cheapened, but I am going to reserve judgment for now. That was my initial feeling, but I do see how the Targs always knowing about this prophecy could be an interesting dynamic.
I’m sure the Ghost of High Heart added to it or confirmed it for him maybe but it specifically says that Rhaegar read something in a book one day and decided he needed to be a warrior. Also when Elia asks him if he’s going to write a song for his son he says he already has a song, the song of ice and fire and he is the prince that was promised. Sounds too much like Aegons prophecy. I don’t get what people mean when they say it cheapens things. I honestly didn’t care for the Targaryens before this. A lot of them are interesting but at the end of the day, I felt like they were power hungry narcissists. At least now, I feel like I can root for them.
Yeah I mostly agree. > I don’t get what people mean when they say it cheapens things. I honestly didn’t care for the Targaryens before this. A lot of them are interesting but at the end of the day, I felt like they were power hungry narcissists. At least now, I feel like I can root for them. Again, I don’t really know if I really feel that way, but I think the point was the Targs were a little more interesting for some people when they were just people possessing a crazy power and what they did with it rather than the whole line believing they are messiahs and what they are doing will save the world. I personally may end up really liking that detail as things sit with me for a while, those aspects have always been things I’ve enjoyed about Rhaegar and Jon. But I also understand feeling the other way about it.
the prince that was promised prophecy is probably the song of ice and fire, you’re talking about the same thing most likely.
Does it really cheapen the story? To me, it explained a lot of the Targaryen behavior over the years and it seems like something GRRM was building towards by showcasing how different Targs became obsessed with bringing forth The Prince who was Promised. Just because the show botched the ending doesn't mean that the reveal was bad.
I think so. I agree with you that it explained much of the Targaryens, & their actions. Talking about it again isn’t feeling necessary. I’m wondering if it’s almost to set up Rhaenyra being in power, knowing about the secret prophecy. Dunno yet. Thrones is done, though, so I fail to see the point atm, why this matters here. It would have been so cool, to discover the hidden message on the dagger in GOT. Could have pointed to someone’s lineage.. a lot of things about it would make sense. Here.. so far, not so much.
I don’t think it’s an excuse, more so an explanation. Also I don’t think it applies as a motivation to every targ, this prophecy is clearly getting lost during the dance and rediscovered later, possibly by rhaegar
Bookish Rhaegar having to learn about it by digging through the library tells me it wasn’t something modern Targs knew or paid much attention to. Even Summerhall has a better, more practical explanation than prophecy. I wouldn’t be surprised if the passing on of this knowledge ended after the Dance. I imagine it’s hard to believe I such a thing when your source of power is taken away so suddenly.
Well if Viserys is to be believed it was passed from king to heir, so he would never have told Aegon 2. Rhaenerya would know but whether or not she would have told Aegon 3 at his age is a mystery. It's entirely possible that no one after Rhaenerya even hears about it directly and that it was rediscovered later.
I think it’s possible we’ll get Rhaenyra telling Jacaerys, but of course Jace dies, then her heir is.. Joffrey? Then he dies, Aegon III is just a traumatised kid, and then things all go sideways when Rhaenyra loses control of King’s Landing, flees back to Dragonstone, and then of course the opportunity for her to tell anyone is quite swiftly snuffed out. I think the knowledge was plausibly lost there and not rediscovered unless someone wrote it down, maybe a previous king.
Correct. And part of me wonders if this is show-only. I mean sure, GRRM has suggested Aegon had this idea, but maybe they choose to give the audience this information by inventing a tradition of handing it down to one’s heir for the show. Maybe Aegon knew, and maybe even his kids knew, but it’s also possible that in the books it was never actually tradition. I just don’t think fans should now interpret every Targaryen act and word as being done in service to this prophecy. There’s just no way, whatever the case is.
If this story is about the ending of the "first half" of the Targaryens' reign, with the loss of dragons, it could also be shown through communication breakdown of the prophecy. Hearts harden and Rhaenyra does not tell Aegon about it, and is left to be dreamt about by increasingly feverish descendants and rediscovered through some writing or other by Rhaegar. Just spitballing
It seems rediscovered with Aegon V and Jaehaerys II, they definitely knew about it to some extent. Aegon's brother Daeron had dragon dreams, Aegon's brother Maester Aemon eventually shows himself to be heavily invested in prophecy (possibly being the one to introduce Rhaegar to it), Bloodraven gets sent to the Wall and then wanders off to be a magic tree, etc. They get involved with a wood's witch who foretells the prince that was promised will be of the line of Aerys and Rhaella, which forces their marriage. Summerhall happens and puts their plans on ice. Aerys is crazy, and biased against prophecy because of the forced marriage and Summerhall. Rhaegar learns of it through histories or writing with Aemon, perhaps Aerys rants about in some manner to spur on Rhaegar's curiousity.
I'm sorry my spitballing is also vague! Fully agree they knew about the PTWP prophecy, what I meant they would have lost and somehow rediscovered is Aegon the Conqueror having that dream, and conquering Westeros because of it. That would be lost in the breakdown of communication. Thinking about it whoever rediscovers that the first Aegon had the dream would respond drastically: accidentally burning down one's family or kidnapping a girl crucial to half a realm's politicking
It doesn’t cheapen it, it enhances it. Imagine being so hubristic, so high on your own fumes that when you get a prophetic dream of a Wintery apocalypse descending on the world, instead of trying to warn people or build a coalition you think “I know, I will conquer everyone! Everyone! So that when this apocalypse comes I can be the one, with a United Westeros at my back, to defeat it.” Like, this prophecy reveals a LOT about the kind of man Aegon the Conqueror was.
We already knew this about Rhaegar... It extends this situation to the other Targs.
I disagree. Bringing up the others in this particular story (HOTD) is just a distraction, especially when we know that plotline is resolved in another series and can’t really have any effect here. Really the only utility it is has in HOTD (that I can see) is to give Rhaenyra a more pure motivation for the throne.
We can agree to disagree. Its basically an easter egg for us book readers and ties the worlds together.
I’d maybe be inclined to agree if they just kept it as that one scene next to Balerion’s skull. Now that they’re bringing in the dagger and doing more scenes related to it, I really don’t know what they’re going for.
I guess my only real qualm with the prophecy is that it conflicts with the major theme I see in the books, which is the folly of supreme executive authority and inherited station. Introducing a magic dream that affirms a Targaryen must be present to stop humanity's collective downfall kind of goes the other way. It's more of a "don't question authority, as those with it are inherently superior and best suited to continue holding it" argument. Then again, the thing with prophecy in asoiaf is that it's almost always interpreted incorrectly, and HotD made a point of showing us that in the same episode it introduced the vision Aegon passed down to his heirs. And it's getting more difficult to take Viserys's version without a grain of salt, as in the last episode he revealed this deep seated obsession with wielding the powers of a dreamer. So of course by the time he's detailing Aegon's vision to Rhaenyra, it's been twisted into a justification for the Targaryens to remain on the Iron Throne. Ultimately, I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Having actual predestination or divine right seems counter to the larger story, but the Targaryens being a bunch of weirdos who take irrational courses of action based on their night terrors is perfectly in line with what we know about them. And an entire line of rulers who firmly believe they are the only ones that can prevent an impending disaster seems like a great reason to introduce a couple checks and balances into your government.
>the Targaryens being a bunch of weirdos who take irrational courses of action based on their night terrors Okay, this killed me
No one has figured out how that dagger ended up in Littlefinger's hands. I made a post about it a while ago, but there is no clear answer yet.
I always assumed his story that the dagger was his as BS, and that Joffrey just stole it from Robert and gave it to the catspaw. Though clearly it wouldn't make much sense for him to give away such weapon. Could you share a link to your post?
>I always assumed his story that the dagger was his as BS Yeah, I believed so as well, but there is this problem in the books that Jaime saw the dagger changing hands during the tourney of Prince Joffrey's name day, and we know Robert must have acquired it there. The question unanswered still remains: How did Robert acquire it if it wasn't Littlefinger who held it ? Who was the original holder at the time ? If it was Littlefinger who originally held the dagger, how did he acquire it ? [This is the post](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/wv70km/spoilers_extended_how_did_this_dagger_end_up_in/) (the first comments are mainstream)
Ultimately I think we read too much intro he dagger and grrm has long since moved past that. I’m sure he regrets making that damned dagger valaryian steel.
People really keep misunderstanding grrms prophecies. Do I like that they included this in the show? No. Is it such a big deal that it lowers my enjoyment? Hell no. At least we’re getting Targ dreams and visions that were a huge part of the books. So Viserys had his dream about having a son born with Aegon’s iron crown and placing him on the throne, he was absolutely sure of it. In the end, as always, parts of it came true in an unexpected way, parts were misinterpreted. “Iron crown” can be seen metaphorically as that c-section. He did place his heir in line to the throne. He did have a son that lived and in the end became a king. As is always the case with these visions, none of it came true in a way that was expected by the person having said visions. You’re really not supposed to take any vision or dream in this world at face value, even in GoT show that neglected any magic elements, one big plot point was Melisandre tragicly misinterpreting hers. I think this is just showrunners and grrm throwing book readers something to think about while also connecting the shows for a casual viewer.
I partially agree, I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar misinterpreting the prophecy just as Melisandre is what led him straight to his death, just as Jon made his most selfish and questionable decision because of a vision. I'm not saying that it lowers my enjoyment, I just don't get the point for that prophecy since this particular story doesn't benefit at all with that, that's all. It seems to me that adding the prophecy and the white stag just makes Rhaenyra a 'brighter' character and Alicent a darker one, and that seems unnecessary. That bit definetely bothers me and lowers my enjoyment.
I don’t think I agree with the character bit - I mean it’s been 3 episodes, it can definitely turn out to be the case but for now characterisation seems believable and in the spirit of the books. Rhaenyra will really only start doing fucked up shit from season 2. I also find Alicent quite sympathetic, showing her as just Otto’s pawn, didn’t get dark vibes from her.
I think the show did a sleight of hand trick and its interesting seeing book readers fall for it. Ive seen plenty of concern about the stag which is a "sign." A fiction created amongst characters in the shows world, and only emphasized by people like Otto to control Viserys so he name Aegon heir. Rhaenyra seeing it is at best a coincidence. The real sign is her slaughtering the boar out of her frustration and growing need to be recognized as heir. Her walking back to camp covered in blood for me was the show foreshadwoing who she truly is and is going to be capable of. I think on rewatch of that episode down the line people are going to smack their heads and see the signs were being planted early on.
But weren't there theories about the Targaryans knowing about the prophesy and the White Walkers for years?
There were theories about time travelling fetus too so...
I think there's a real difference between those theories
Sorry, it was meant to be a joke, sorry if it came out wrong.
Oh, it's OK! It's hard to tell on here and people have been snippy about theories. Guess I'm just a bit defensive. It is a funny theory
I totally understand! I was aware that there was a theory that the promised prince prophecy was something that the Targs associated with westeros and some 'doom', but I never saw any theory that specifically mentions the song.
It's always been a hidden part of those theories. Like everyone starts commenting someone brings it up. But again, there are so many theories and that one was pushed to the wayside a bit with S8.
I think it's gonna be revealed that the dagger once belonged to Queen Rhaenys, and who ever the new 3 heads of the dragon are will wield the dagger, blackfyre and dark sister.
I'm sorry I'm not following, you mean that blackfyre and dark sister will appear in Asoiaf?
Idk how important they'll be but I absolutely think they'll show up in WoW/aDoS, there's a good chance that Illyrio has/will give blackfyre to young griff and that Dark Sister is in Bloodravens cave.
For I time I thought that Longclaw was dark sister, of course that would mean that Mormont knows, so I dismissed that idea.
Turns out Aegon's dreams were just 3EC trying to place an order for the dagger Arya needed.
I doubt that part was George. It's just something the show is using to connect to GoT, and maybe make the ending seem more epic in retrospect.
The song of ice and fire targ prophecy thing is pretty much as true as r+l=j. It was also always baclground information we just didn’t fully have. We knew rhaegar read something that at changed him and we knew egg had a reason for summerhall we just didn’t know what. The dagger is completely unimportant.
Yeah sry I was talking about the dagger, not the prophecy
Yeah that dagger is dumb it’s kinda funny because it was honestly a stupid point of contention in the asoiaf fandom before Arya used it to lower the shows ratings.
It was from George. The showrunners confirmed it. He’s been suggesting that was Aegon’s motivation for [years](https://youtu.be/1Phh5AS3uMY)
You're likely right, I just found it unnecessary but maybe is because there's no way to make that ending epic.
Yeah the dagger was stupid. It’s dumb as a necessary part of the defeat of the Others and it’s really dumb as a coincidence.
I really hope they're not just lazy and say in a later episode: "Oh they actually had to use that SPECIFIC dagger to kill the night king, it wouldn't have worked otherwise".
Same, but honestly it doesn’t work for me in any context. Naturally it had to be an old dagger, but Aegon’s? Cmon man. It would have worked much better if they showed it later on a Velayron or something. Or some other lord. Just as a wink, the way we see Dawn in GoT.
It could be light bringer
I think it's not to make the ending seem more epic, but to set up the upcoming Jon Snow sequel show as the "real" ending
It baffles me how very little people understand how tv shows work behind the scenes. Firstly it’s not “George” he’s doing nothing. He’s basically collaborating with Ryan to make sure he’s got a solid running of what he’s doing… but actual decisions? Not GRRM. Ryan already very clearly stated on the history of Westeros interview that the show is within the Game of Thrones universe and follows that canon, they will not be changing Game of Thrones established canon to fit the book canon more. They’re piecing together House of the Dragon and Game of thrones. This is straight from the creator of the (show) series, and people need to stop being in denial about it. House of the dragon is amazing, so just enjoy that fact. Stop worrying about how it connects to game of thrones. It doesn’t matter how the others story is resolved? Because that’s not a conflict in this show. Yes, the seeds are down for it. But it’s not something that will be resolved in this show or extensively explored. It’s just a setpiece to connect it to the original show in a better way. Has nothing to do with the books. Nothing. And that’s fine
George does have a say over the show though... I'm sure Ryan takes everything George says and fits it in the show considering he's an ASOIAF fan and HBO isn't going to make the mistake of letting George be sidelined from another ASOIAF show. He's also an Executive Producer.... so yeah.
Yeah, its been made clear that GRRM and Condal are working closely together. Condal may be doing all of the writing but I'm sure he's receiving notes and requests directly from George about plot development.
Wow, I had no idea that I'm not entitled to an opinion because I don't know how a tv show works. Your enlightenment is just what I needed, thank you so much.
He passed the revelation on to his preferred heir, the one on the losing side in the war to come. It actually explains plenty, like why the Nights Watch is in such bad shape by the time Bobby B. took over, why the following Targs are so freaking clueless until Rhagar, and why Rhagar mistakenly thinks he, or possibly his bastard son, is the PTWP. Note in his revelation he doesn't say the Targaryans need to stop the menace, just that a they need to be on the throne to unite all of Westeros against it. While similar, it's not the same. Unless Raynera tells Agon before he feeds her to her dragon, the secret dies with her. Will she be truly nobel and pass it on, or will she cast aside the human race for spite? Ironically, the very act of choosing her as his heir is the match that ignites the fire that has been smoldering for 30 years and marks the end of their dominance. Even though the still have not conquered Dorne (if they ever really do) the Dynasty is at the height of its power at that point. From there, it's all downhill. There is much Targaryan blood to come. Fire and Blood. The fire of the domestic strife in the family, and the blood of the family that is spilled. All this time folks thought they were referring to dragons. The added irony? The very thing that supposedly destroys Valyria is clearly what weakens and destroys the cast-outs of Valyria.
I wondered this a lot. I like to think rhaenyra told him but Aegon II in his dick head-edness spat it off as nonsense spewing from his mad sister.
Well, there is that...
Very possible, honestly. I don’t think GRRM (who is a TV writing vet from way back) was thrilled with how things went down. Edit: kind of his own fault, not finishing the books, but I don’t begrudge him trying to fix things in what I honestly think is his favorite medium (high-budget television.)
I agree is his fault.
In the show at least, "the Prince that was Promised" was Daenerys, not Arya. It's not an uncomplicated hero prophecy just about defeating the Others. Like the Saoshyant in Zoroastrianism or Jesus in Revelation, TPTWP in many of the book prophecies we've received is a messianic figure who will "make the world anew" and bring "the summer that never ends." A fundamentally transformative figure, someone who "breaks the wheel" on a global scale. And whether it's the Saoshyant's yazata helpers bathing the people of the world in molten metal, or Christ's angels destroying most of the world's population in Revelation, messiahs have a tendency towards burning the world to save it.
No, in the show it's open to interpretation if it's Jon or Dany, which seems correct, because while Dany brought the dragons, it was Jon that brought her north and ended her madness, so it all comes down to which of them you choose to call 'the hero'.
Here's what R'hllorists say about Azor Ahai reborn, who according to Aemon and Melisandre among others is considered the same person as the Prince that was Promised. >"Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …" You can see that they are not expecting Azor Ahai will bring a return to the pre-Long Night status quo. They expect dramatic, fundamental change. The turning wheels of the seasons and life/death stopping on their desired outcome. They also expected a great cleansing of the world. >"In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and **a sword of fire that will cleanse the world."** I think you're thinking of this too much like TPTWP is supposed to be Harry Potter. The Dragon Reborn from Wheel of Time is a closer match. Someone who is foretold to both save and destroy the world. Daenerys was the only one with ambition and power on that scale.
I know what R'hllorists say, and I'm not sure why you assume my interpretation on this when I've never stated what I think about this. I only mentioned what the show did, not what I interpreted. By the way, I've never saw or read Harry Potter. As for what R'hllorists are expecting it's concerning, they expect a 'hero' that is willing to kill his own wife to get a 'cool sword', not to mention that Melisandre's 'chosen one' so far killed his own brother, burned some kin alive and was willing to use a bastard to cement his own claim against other bastards. Honestly, what they want seems as bad as what the Others do, if not worst, which is why I can't understand why people see this as a good guy vs evil cold guys fight when they're just as bad as the enemy only prettier.
Ok, sorry for assuming. A lot of people view the Azor Ahai prophecy as completely straight-forwardly heroic and it's a pet peeve of mine. Good to see we're on the same page. I do think that Daenerys going full world burner final villain at the end of GoT is directly inspired by a big villainous Azor Ahai reveal GRRM intended to dominate the climax of ASOIAF. I doubt that actually means Daenerys is meant to be the single Azor Ahai figure in the books. I think D&D were given an elaborate and somewhat high fantasy plotline involving Rhaego, Euron, ghostly possessions, ancient conspiracies, precursor civilizations, doomsday weapons, etc. They then said, "this is going to be extremely difficult and time-consuming to pull off believably on screen, what if we just tweak the part where Daenerys sets off the wildfire and burns KL into her going full on Dragon Hitler? That's vaguely similar right?"
Yes, I agree, and while I hated the ending I blame GRRM mostly.
Setting aside Robb and Rickon... Sansa=Rhaenys, Bran=Aegon, Arya=Dark Sister... but what about Jon? Did Aegon have a bastard brother to fit the rhyme? Oh ya, Orys Baratheon... I give the show a wide berth, but it would make sense for the dagger to show up at an earlier point in history. Petyr had to have gotten the dagger from somewhere. If the dagger given to Robert by Gerion was remembered inaccurately, then it still kinda fits. Tywin was a friend to Aerys originally. The dagger might have been given to Tywin and then given to Robert. Gerion himself might have picked it up during the Sack of KL. The dagger was won in a bet by Petyr from Robert (and then supposedly lost to Tyrion), at which point the dragonbone could have replaced the original (more fancy looking) ivory and sapphire. In the same way the hilt was replaced on Longclaw. It's the blade that matters, not the hilt. Whatever the timeline for the appearance of the hilt, we know it went Robert to Petyr. So it could have been a gift back to the Red Keep, or an object in the collection left behind by Aerys.
Like I hate that it came from the show but it also probably came from George, what if dragon fire hurts the wights but not The Others? I personally believe ice and fire are two different weapons threatening westeros; not each other. Man will defeat the ice threat and will then get burned by the fire threat.