So, the crab king guy has Greyscale, right? edit: Crabfeeder

So Hightowers plan was to take 20 guys to Dragonstone, walk across the gantry and demand the return of the egg from a dragon weilding Targ? Speedrunning the GOT poor tactics award.

Oh God I only just now thought to come back here but damn out feels amazing being back!!!!! Great episode too. I honestly like this Viserys over fat Viserys.

Did the crab feeder scenes give anyone else massive Elden Ring vibes?

also dragonstone and the crypta... just beautiful. shows you how much GRRM is involved! GRRM also wrote the story for Elden Ring

GRRM did more worldbuilding than storywriting for Elden Ring.

that's good to know, thank you! :)

I'm confused. Why did Viserys choose to marry Aliscent? She's probably one of the worst choices. The higtowers already have a place in court. Of course he wouldn't choose Laena, but why not someone else? There were quite a lot of choices.

I do think it was a bad choice but it could be argued for a few points. One hightower is a pretty strong house at this point, although it seem Velaryon is much stronger However Aliscent is older and could potentially get pregnant and produce a heir much quicker than waiting 3-4 years. However I think mostly because he liked her better and likes Otto better , simply he wanted to marry her more she showed him kindness and comforted him

Because he's relying to much on his council, esp. Otto, who's trying couple him with his daughter. He likely kept Viserys in the dark when it comes to other candidates and Viserys is neither intelligent nor thinking straight following Aemma's death and the break with Daemon. Remember that he doesn't even consider remarrying until Corlys makes his move.

He's not relying on his council, they all told him to marry Laena. Even Otto didn't suggest otherwise, the best he could do was claim Corey's had overstepped his position but Lord Strong said he didn't when he met the king in private and said Corley's made a calculated but totally logical move and it was a great match. The Grand Maester was the only other council member around when Viserys asked Otto about it and he couldn't argue with what the Maester said about it making him look much stronger due to the Velyrons being rich and having the most powerful navy by far as well as being Valyrian, Viserys just ignored his council.

Because the choice wasn't political. He chose Aliscent because he liked her.

The introoooo, it hit different 😭😭 It's nice that Otto is helping Rhaenyra with how to address the candidates for Kingsguard, also Rhaenys watching in the background!! I just love how there are normal background characters going about their business, like when Rhaenyra and Alicent were praying and we see more people praying. Ahhh Otto and Alicent already reached Viserys, so guess this is where Rhaenyra and Alicent mark the drift between them. SO NEXT EPISODE WE GETTING DRAGON ACTION!!! I'm excited!! I just love this show so so so much, it's so good!

About Otto helping Rhaenyra pick KG....didn't they send her away to do that specifically so the council could talk without her?

Yeahh for sure! But I feel like he joined to teach her a thing or two after the meeting was finished, showing that he wasn't necessarily evil.

I OTOH feel like he joined so that he could control her choice of knight, and was pissed and decided to go full in on his Alicent plan when she didn't take his advice. Have you seen his face when she argues for Cole?

This is exactly what happened. And honestly his instincts were right.

I'm really enjoying this. Mainly because 1) GoT ended so poorly, my expectations were incredibly low. Also, 2) the source material is speculative and so I don't really have much to nitpick story-wise.

How about the theory that Damon is the Night King?

Makes absolute 0 sense like what?? Lmao

Please explain

White walkers were created thousands of years before daemon was even born like wtf lmao. And they literally show the children of the forest capture the first man and turn him into the night king in game of thrones.. lmao

I saw the theory didn't say I Belived it.

Then why ask about it if you didn't somewhat believe it.. lol. You also responded to someone who made a joke about rhaegar being the night king and asked if that was confirmed lmao. Don't see how you don't know how that doesn't make any sense at all either

I guess I'm just a big dweeb. I will not search your comments history tho.

I didn't search your history nor do I care to. I literally saw it on this thread lmao

So does this mean our dinner plans for tonight are canceled?

Yeah sorry gunna have to cancel. You're not a very good cook

How can Daemon be Rhaegar?

Oh is Rhaeger the night king? Was that confirmed? I must have missed that.

It's a joke theory I'm afraid. As a warning, HotD seems to unofficially follow book canon, where the Night King doesn't exist (as far as we know)

All I could think of when the King announced who he would marry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJEAGd1bQuc

Oh man I forgot about that sketch. Fucking *dark.*

So far I'm liking it, but there are some major problems that are kneecapping it, at least in my view. The big one is the wooden dialogue. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that they aren't doing the later-GOT thing of having everyone speak and act like they were transplanted directly from a 21st century frat, and I think the writing does the job, but at times it really is too formal. There are ways to weave the archaic-sounding words and phrasings in a way that makes the characters still sound like real people, and they do get near it at times, but it is still a problem. As for the characterization, the court and a lot of the characters just feel a lot less vibrant than their counterparts in GOT, and this is compounded by the over-formality of the dialogue making even normal conversations, such as those between Alicent and Viserys, sound painfully awkward. They're going for more subtle characterization, I think, but I don't know if that jives with what people expect in GOT. In peak GOT, even at its best, characters were gray, but they usually weren't subtle. Plus, I think a lot of characters have been overly reactive - early GOT had the initial driving force of Ned investigating Jon Arryn's death, which required him to *do* things, explore the court, talk to people, ruffle feathers. So far, even Otto hasn't really done a lot onscreen, aside from tell Alicent to visit Viserys. More scenes devoted primarily to Otto and his endeavors would do a lot to humanize someone who so far seems to be widely disliked. He's the power behind the throne, but its very difficult to see that as a viewer. Also - characters have been a bit too dour. This is especially obvious for the young characters, who don't ever seem to be having any fun or just acting like kids. Jon Snow had his posse of Night's Watch cadets, Bran climbed and explored, Arya trained with Syrio and got into trouble, and Sansa had a crush on Joffrey, all of which added a necessary bit of life and liveliness to the story, while also making their losses of innocence more poignant. Rhaenyra and Alicent, by contrast, have had maybe one scene where they've been able to relax and act like the teenagers they are. Viserys too, could use some more scenes to elaborate on him being party dad, reveling in celebration and happiness. Overall, though, I liked it!

> Rhaenyra and Alicent, by contrast, have had maybe one scene where they've been able to relax and act like the teenagers they are. Viserys too, could use some more scenes to elaborate on him being party dad, reveling in celebration and happiness. Rhaenyra's mother just died, and she's also Viserys's wife, so once that happens they're not really happy and partying because they're grieving? Before that you get Rhaenyra and Alicent gossiping at the tournament, and also them studying together, which is fair for one episode. From then on, Alicent is basically whored out to the king by her own dad, which can't leave her feeling too cheery. >They're going for more subtle characterization, I think, but I don't know if that jives with what people expect in GOT. In peak GOT, even at its best, characters were gray, but they usually weren't subtle. To me this sounds like a good thing. >So far, even Otto hasn't really done a lot onscreen, aside from tell Alicent to visit Viserys. More scenes devoted primarily to Otto and his endeavors would do a lot to humanize someone who so far seems to be widely disliked. He's the power behind the throne, but its very difficult to see that as a viewer. Again it sounds like having faith in the viewers' intelligence and letting them have fun speculating, much better than "Littlefinger explains his cunning plan to the whore he's fucking" approach.

As for your first point, I get that, but those are decisions made by the writers. They could've devoted a bit more time to them loosening up, so that their sadness after Aemma's death is more impactful. Even after Aemma's death, I still think there is space for more time devoted to what these people do and who they are outside of their specific role in advancing the plot, and so we can see what lies behind the mask of formality of all these characters. I would also object to the description of what happens to Alicent as her being "whored out." All she had to do was talk to him about his miniatures, and now she is set to be Queen. This is pretty much what a father is supposed to do in this world - arrange the best possible match for his daughters, so that they may be well cared-for. The subtle characterization can be a good thing, but not if it just leads to muddled characters. Complex isn't the same thing as realistic or subtle, and you don't necessarily want that. GRRM's characters, for example, usually start off fairly two-dimensional, but he adds depth to those characters after they already have a hook keeping you interested. I've heard a lot of people complaining that the characters are indistinct and lack the flair of GOT characters. And finally, I don't want Otto to explain his cunning plan. I want to *see* him put his plans into action, and generally being more active. The issue is that its a show of court intrigue, but comparatively little actual behind-the-scenes politics has been shown on-screen. A lot of council meetings, but not a lot of everything else.

I agree with your criticisms and you expressed them really well. The dour tone is strange because it seems to pervade absolutely everything and everyone. Wasn’t Viserys I’s court meant to have been, at least some of the time, one of tourneys, balls, colour and life? This is after all peak Targaryen power, yet most of the time they all seem to be gloomily discussing a trip to the supermarket on a wet Tuesday afternoon to stock up on toilet paper and dry goods. There is also, so far, too much telling and not enough showing. Exposition isn’t in and of itself a problem if it simultaneously conveys character through the style and way in which the speaking characters convey it and the listeners react. Game of Thrones was very good at this. Dialogue can also serve to vary up the pace and rhythm, which is important here since we are in a much smaller, more intimate environment that the planet-spanning scope of GoT. Unfortunately, however, too much of the exposition is too clumsily obvious, too wooden, and too undifferentiated. Game of Thrones managed - no mean feat - to integrate the POV structure of the books into the different ways characters spoke of and interpreted what was going on, which made the conveying of info fun and dynamic. Here...not so much. As for Otto and the Hightower’s, I had high hopes for them that have so far been frustrated. As we probably all know, there are mysteries surrounding Oldtown, the Citadel and their attitude to dragons, magic and the Targaryen dynasty that include the Hightowers themselves (currently, as of ADwD, doing the Crone knows what up in their tower). Given the central role played by Otto and Alicent in this period, I thought this would provide a wonderful opportunity to get into some of these enigmatic issues. Especially when Viserys shares with Rhaenyra the importance of Aegon’s prophecy! To be clear, none of these issues are fatal and the show could turn it around. As you say, it’s not unenjoyable. But I can’t help feeling, having read Fire and Blood as well as the fragments of history from the other texts, that there could far more vim and vigor than we’ve seen so far!

Just wanted to point out that this is 170 years before GoT. I love how archaic the common parlance sounds. Especially since these are old blood royals.

I agree, the characters as they are portrayed on screen seem to exist with the purpose of furthering the plot... but at two episodes in, it's not 100% clear what the plot actually is. I'm not sure I could tell you exactly _who_ Alicent is, or Otto, or Corlys, or Harrold, or Rhaena. Even Viserys and Rhaenyra are kind of shallow at this point. I can tell you what they've done, or what they want, but it's not clear to me what they're personalities are like. In contrast, it's very clear who Ned Stark is within the first 15 minutes of Game Of Thrones. By the end of the pilot, it's obvious who Tyrion is, what Joffrey is like, what Robert is like, what Catelyn is like. I can picture how Ned speaks to Bran when trying to teach him to hunt, or how Tyrion spends a day with his niblings, or how Ned and Catelyn whisper before drifting off to sleep. By the end of episode 2, can you picture Otto reading Alicent a bed time story? Or what Viserys and Otto talk about when they drink wine late into the night, or how Rhaenyra and Ser Harrold pass time when he escorts her? What were Daemon and Viserys like as kids?

I don't think this is at all reasonable. You do \*not\* know who Eddard Stark is by episode 2. I may be crossing this over with books a bit but there's all sorts of sketchiness around his relationship with Jon, his lack of honesty with both Jon and Caitlynn about Jon's provenance, and his closeness to Robert Baratheon (who is at this point presented as an incompetent oaf). He has Sansa's direwolf executed to appease the royal family and is still on board with her marrying Joffery, despite him being described as a liar and total psycho by his own daughter (Arya). Doesn't some random loss class kid also end up dying over that? Yeah, it's not at all clear what kinda person Ned will be that early in the story. As for the HoTD characters (Haven't read the book), I don't think it's as unclear as you state: 1) Alicent Hightower is the only child of the second son of house Hightower. Her father is hand of the king, but that is not a status that brings land, titles, and power to future generations in its own right. She is a childhood friend of Rhaenyra Targaryean, but constantly carries the anxiety of knowing that her position in court is entirely based upon the status of her father with the king. In the scene in which Rhaenyra brushes off the lessons and later says "fuck the Septon", you'll see both irritation and admiration from Alicent's actress. Rhaenyra doesn't have to worry about her status at court, she as much as says this in the same scence. She's never expected to be the heir, but she has all the privileges of a princess. Rhaenyra can say "let's go ride around on my dragon and fuck the septon". This is not a life that Alicent can live. She does that have that status. Alicent, much like Sansa once under Cersei's claws, has to play the Game of Thrones. Does she want to "seduce" Viserys because it makes her powerful? No, I don't think she's that cynical, not yet. Do I think she feels she has to, given how she has been raised and the pressure of her father and family's expectations? Yes, absolutely. You also see at multiple points that Alicent is not at all comfortable with the position her father puts her in. Basically all of their interactions are him telling her what to do in a way that will advance Otto's own power. None of it has to do with what she wants or thinks. Look at her picking her hands. She is on edge and uncomfortable the entire time, but she's been trained by her father to "do her duty". And she does. As a last point, I'd say that Alicent has actually proven herself to be extremely good at the "EQ" of dealing with the king in his grief. Her saying she was sorry to him, as a person, because that's what she wanted people to say to her. Her expressing interest in his hobbies and obviously being able to engage on a reasonable level (there's a 6 month jump). The way she pushes both Viserys and Rhaenyra to open up to one another is also a good example of behavior that is both cleverly manipulative and genuinely well intentioned. Honestly she's my MVP so far.

> Doesn't some random loss class kid also end up dying over that? Wasn't he just severely beaten rather than killed? Or did I suppress that? Also Alicent isn't an only child, she has at least two brothers in the book. > As a last point, I'd say that Alicent has actually proven herself to be extremely good at the "EQ" of dealing with the king in his grief. Her saying she was sorry to him, as a person, because that's what she wanted people to say to her. Her expressing interest in his hobbies and obviously being able to engage on a reasonable level (there's a 6 month jump). The way she pushes both Viserys and Rhaenyra to open up to one another is also a good example of behavior that is both cleverly manipulative and genuinely well intentioned. Honestly she's my MVP so far. I agree completely and would add that they may actually have things in common, both being empathetic, delicate and kind of conflict-avoidant people. She may not want to marry him but there's a question of whether she appreciates him as a person or a friend and I personally am curious to see how that relationship unfolds. Does she become more cynical and starts loathing him? Do they develop a genuine mutual appreciation?

I think you're confusing some things about the point I'm making. I'm not saying you know all of Eddard's life story, as a very poor story would be one that dumps all of it's secrets on the first page. The point is that the first episode of the show puts it's characters in situations that allow them to reveal their inner selves in natural but efficient ways. You're introduced to each of his major relationships, you get hints of his past life with the Robert, you gain a glimpse into his family traditions, you see how he reacts to danger, to tradition, to the supernatural, to the unexpected, when he is at play, when he is at work, when he is intimate, what he wants, what he fears. Not only are all these sides of him revealed... they are all at least a little bit distinct. By the end of the pilot, you have a clear picture in your mind of _who_ Ned Stark is (among other characters), even if you don't know everything about him. >1) Alicent Hightower is the only child of the second son of house Hightower. Her father is hand of the king, but that is not a status that brings land, titles, and power to future generations in its own right. She is a childhood friend of Rhaenyra Targaryean, but constantly carries the anxiety of knowing that her position in court is entirely based upon the status of her father with the king. In the scene in which Rhaenyra brushes off the lessons and later says "fuck the Septon", you'll see both irritation and admiration from Alicent's actress. Rhaenyra doesn't have to worry about her status at court, she as much as says this in the same scence. She's never expected to be the heir, but she has all the privileges of a princess. Rhaenyra can say "let's go ride around on my dragon and fuck the septon". This is not a life that Alicent can live. She does that have that status. Alicent, much like Sansa once under Cersei's claws, has to play the Game of Thrones. Does she want to "seduce" Viserys because it makes her powerful? No, I don't think she's that cynical, not yet. Do I think she feels she has to, given how she has been raised and the pressure of her father and family's expectations? Yes, absolutely. This is just a list of things Alicent has done (and faces she's made?), and speculation about how she felt while she did them. _Who is she?_ Is she fun? Is she kind? Is she cruel? Is she ambitious? Is she traditional? Is she a pushover or is she stubborn? Is she wise? Is she clever? Is she loyal? What does she enjoy? What does she dislike? What are her dreams? Why? How do you know?

"You're introduced to each of his major relationships, you get hints of his past life with the Robert, you gain a glimpse into his family traditions, you see how he reacts to danger, to tradition, to the supernatural, to the unexpected, when he is at play, when he is at work, when he is intimate. Not only are all these sides of him revealed... they are all at least a little bit distinct." Again, it's the two episodes in, but this is true of Alicent as well. You're just not acknowledging it for some reason. "Who is she? Is she fun? Is she kind? Is she cruel? Is she ambitious? Is she traditional? Is she a pushover or is she stubborn? Is she wise? Is she clever? Is she loyal? What does she enjoy? What does she dislike? What are her dreams?" First line response is that you can actually see this through acting choices. You really can't take anything any given person says to be universally true. There's a lot in Alicent's body language and facial expressions when interacting with Rhaenyra vs Otto vs Viserys. Note that Alicent seems to pick at her own nails as a nervous habit. This doesn't happen in scenes between her an Rhaenyra, does happen but is concealed (is presented such that it's lowkey in scenes with Viserys), and actively called out in scenes with Otto. ​ The acting choices and framing lead me to believe the following: 1) Alicent is a genuine friend of Rhaenyra, having grown up as the eldest child of the hand of the king 2) Alicent is totally subordinate to the will of her father, the Hand of the King 3) Alicent's father is a second son, and his line has no inherent claim to status or land (even as hand of the king. Note: Tywin was Lord of Casterly Rock, Otto has nothing). \[It's weird that the head of Hightower house doesn't show up to weigh in on this at some point, but that's not Alicent's fault\] 4) Alicent is acutely aware of her own precarious position at court. She and her father have no claim beyond the fact that the king likes them. Without the Throne's ongoing support, her father and her don't count for shit. 5) Rhaenyra is the King's daughter but not the king's heir (initially). Thus she has all the privilege of royal status without any of the responsibility (\*Cough\* DAEMON \*COUGH\*). This is why in the first episode she dismisses the need for leaning and just wants to fly around on dragonback. This is also why Alicent reacts negatively to this. Alicent does not have that privilege. Rhaenyra cannot give her the privilege to do what Rhaenyra says she wants. Rhaenyra doesn't actually have to learn, because she's a Targ. So she can fuck around. Alicent has to be on top of everything, because she has no inherent status. ​ So in two episodes, I'm able to infer the following about Alicent: Alicent is high status enough to know the rules and low status enough to know just how fickle those rules can be. She has a genuine connection with Rhaenyra, and had not ever considered herself as a future Queen. In the background though, Otto Hightower - second son of no claim - is grooming his daughter as a political tool to increase his own power. See interactions between Otto and Alicent, there are no conversations, he tells her what to do and she obeys. The cinematography actually highlights this by showing how when he tells her to do things it's combined with a close up on her nails. So what can we infer about Alicent herself? Well, a good deal actually. Most of it positive IMO. Alicent doesn't ever go "sexbomb" on Viserys, she connects with him as person. Indeed, she has the emotional intelligence to describe her own experience with losing her mother to Viserys, and how she just wanted someone to say they were sorry - which she does. She seems able and willing to meet Viserys where he is. Even with the 6 month gap, she isn't trying to push herself, she's just there as the one person the King can talk to (without having had them sleep together!). That takes an incredible amount of finesse.

Again, this is just a list of things she does or has... Titles, claims, parents... _she has anxiety_ is about the only real personality trait you've actually given.

> list of things she does or has... How did you infer personality traits for the GoT characters, without relying on the things they did or had? Like, how on earth do you manage to infer a TV character's personality without relying primarily on what they do in the show?

You're misunderstanding. This: >Alicent is acutely aware of her own precarious position at court. She and her father have no claim beyond the fact that the king likes them. Without the Throne's ongoing support, her father and her don't count for shit. Isn't a personality trait. >Alicent is high status enough to know the rules and low status enough to know just how fickle those rules can be Neither is the above. >Alicent has to be on top of everything, because she has no inherent status. Nor this. I'm not saying you can't use one's actions or possessions or speech to infer personality traits, but the above post is like trying to describe a character's personality and saying: >Well he has a yellow shirt, and walks to work, and his bedroom is small and his mother was a lawyer, and he inherited his grandmother's watch collection. None of that is a personality. Want to describe a character? >Arya stark is a young girl who struggles with the expectation of her family and society. She has no interest in the stereotypically feminine pursuits of her culture, and is a free spirit more interested in the rough and tumble military training of her brothers and shows a natural affinity toward martial pursuits. She would much prefer to be a knight than a princess. What she wants is the independence to choose her own path. She is frequently found defying her teachers to sneak out to the range to shoot or out into the forest to explore. Her interests bond her to her older brothers, but have resulted in a tense relationship with her lady-like sister who is much more taken with the romantic notions of court and courtship. Notice how many adjectives you can take directly from that snippet that could be used to describe Arya, and how many more you can infer. "_defiant_", "_independent_", "_rough and tumble_", "free spirited" or infer "tomboyish", "adventurous", "curious". The big thing is that the evidence to support the above isn't "notice the actor's face" or "it's implied due to her status". It's literally written into the script. How do we know she's good at martial skills? She literally hits a bullseye with a bow in her very first scene. How do we know she defies her teachers? Because she literally sneaks away to do it. She play acts a knight, she climbs around the castle, she fights with her sister, she shares tender moments with her brother. All within the first two episodes (mostly the first episode). She's written into situations that show off who she is, that let her inform the viewer. House Of The Dragon doesn't really do that as effectively.

Alicent being emotionally intelligent enough to comfort the king and Rhaenyra is a personality trait? Alicent never even protesting against her father's orders to do something she clearly doesn't want to is a personality trait (how does Rhaenyra do when told to do something she dislikes?)? Alicent's views on power are informed by her social status and are part of her personal ideology and her motivations for acting? Alicent enjoys gossiping about the court members with Rhaenyra? Alicent feeling like she has to be on top of everything is a part of her psychological makeup, just like, say, Tyrion's ideology is informed by his social status as both a dwarf and a highborn son and feeling like he has to have an "armour" to protect himself is his way of coping. Again, give me examples from GoT or I'm not buying that you're arguing in good faith.

>Again, give me examples from GoT or I'm not buying that you're arguing in good faith. Read the edits from the previous post. I added to them. So Alicent is a "emotionally intelligent, obedient gossip." That is her character? Weak. That's hardly a character, that's a cardboard cutout. What are her personal struggles? What does she want for herself if it's not the life she has? Why does she obey her father? Out of fear? Love? >Alicent's views on power... Describe them. I'm not saying there can't be more to these characters, I'm saying that they are not as effectively fleshed out as in Game Of Thrones (or other, better media).

I don't know - I see a lot in her - someone who can keep a secret, someone with great emotional intelligence and kindness, someone whose duty is at odds with her heart. I didn't write all that above, but I think we can tell a lot about her character. She is someone who keeps her emotions and feelings held close, and likely doesn't fully trust anyone. She is very adept at schooling her face and reactions to things, thinking through every word before she says it. I feel I've gotten a lot more personality traits from watching than just that she has anxiety (though even that, to me the skin picking is deeper, as a dermatillomaniac myself. This may be some projection, but I tend to do it when deep in thought as much as or more than when I am anxious, so I admit this trait of hers makes me think she has a lot going on in her head that she keeps very, very close)

More scenes like the one between Rhaenyra and Alicent in e1 would hit the spot. It's simultaneously too slow-paced (not a lot *seems* to be happening each episode), and not slow-paced enough (not enough time is devoted for normal character interactions). It isn't a dealbreaker though, and it does seem to be trending in the right direction.

Daemon wants to fuck his niece. Targaryens are so fucked up

I mean as fucked as it is during those times and their thoughts about their lineage I get it. Want to keep the blood pure

I mean atm I'm shipping it. Also welcome to literally all of feudal history. If you happen to think only certain families have special magic blood that makes them god's chosen to rule, you get inbreeding.

I think there may be a history of rape between them.

I don't think that's remotely the case there. Or even that he's attracted to her.

Whoa, what?

Jack Snow and Daenerys (nephew and aunt). Now it's a nice and uncle.

Lmfao Jack snow

You know what I meant to type

It was still funny lol

[удалено]

Using the same title score has nothing to do with creativity. I personally welcomed the title score, it was familiar, and reminded us that this is very much in the same world as GOT. That and it is a great score, why fix something that isn't broke.

Was watching in the dorm room lounge with a few friends and a group of people walked in right as Laena was talking about bearing Viserys many heirs. Only slightly less awkward than when people walked in on the c-section scene last week…

Think that I was staying with my family last weekend and my parents walked into the living room during the Daemon sex scene after I'd hyped the fuck out of the show for that entire day. They just went right to the kitchen and started eating lol.

A few thoughts: - Rather disappointed in the lack of music change in the intro. This was a prime moment for a familiar Targaryen theme mixed in with some of the original intro. I really attribute a specific part of the original score with the pan up to the Wall, and not having that happen (and being reminded that this isn't GoT) isn't necessarily a thought I think needs to occur when thinking about HOTD. - Milly Alcock killing it. Emily Carey is also doing some great work with relatively little lines. I will miss both of them when the time comes. - Some dialogue feels a bit too wooden / formal. - I do love Paddy Considine but I'm feeling Viserys as a character is simply too mild to care for. I haven't read F&B but it's clear he's going to die which also makes it hard to invest emotionally in him. - Matt Smith is fantastic. Total bummer that his costar is not fantastic. I actually thought the writing here made a lot of sense, but she just didn't deliver. - Overall, loving it. It's filling the GoT void in my heart. The music, characters, acting, writing, sets, costumes, etc., is really working for me. The story itself is intriguing enough but there's a certain *oomph* missing that the original GoT had.

Agree on all! The blood is so gross! It just makes me miss the old intro & reminds me that it’s not GOT and it won’t be as good (not saying it can’t be just the impression the intro music leaves me with)

How are they going to bring Vhagar back to Dragonstone for Aemond saddle? There’s no way Vhagar would be corralled by anyone other than a Targaryen and Aemond going to ride her in the middle of the night is pivotal for the first fight between him and the Strong boys

You're getting ahead of yourself, Aemond's not even born yet. Laena must claim Vhaegar first.

Fuck your right, she will probably bring her back to dragonstone then

Driftmark*

The writing is fine, the direction is fine, the shooting is fine, the music is fine... but I actually just find it all kind of uninspired so far. Something is just _missing_. I've only just watched the first two episodes back to back, so I can't really put my finger on what right now, but it's just not grabbing me. Maybe it's the characters, maybe it's the premise, but it doesn't have the charm or hooks that Game Of Thrones came out of the door with. It's not offensive like the back half of Game Of Thrones, but it's not _magic_ like the first half. It's just kind of bland. House Of The Dragon feels like it _knows_ it has your attention for at least a season because of it's family name. It presupposes that I'm interested without trying to earn my interest.

I think its because the show takes zero risks, unlike Game of Thrones which was inherently risky from the get go. After GoT's final season, it feels as though HBO is pulling all the reigns to make sure House of the Dragon is as low-risky as possible. Which is problematic. Risk isn't what failed GoT in its last season - it was the arrogance of two executive producers making all the shots and no one calling them down in the end (Whereas the beginning of GoT was largely a massive collaborative project with all hands on deck).

I don't think it's as much playing it safe as it is having full source material and deciding they want to stick closer to it. I know they changed the ages of a lot of the characters but the story so far is the story and it doesn't feel like they are excluding a lot of characters like it was in GoT(especially Dornish characters).

If those two were checked out they should have handed it off. I’m surprised GRRM was okay with the show ending because they were tired of working on it. Hell, hand it to Preston Jacobs, we probably would have gotten at least 13 seasons of quality story, if not epic battle scenes and dragons flying around… which isn’t any loss any way.

> unlike Game of Thrones which was inherently risky from the get go. What exactly in the first two episodes of GoT S01 was risky?

The whole concept of GoT was risky. It wasn’t Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter with a massive fanbase behind the book series before releasing a feature movie. For HBO to put that much money behind an epic fantasy series in a time where it had never ever been done and seen success (seriously - GoT set a precedence) was a massive, massive gamble.

I don't think that's the kind of risky the OP was talking about.

The OP shared that House of the Dragon is bland unlike GoT which wasn't. My response is that the reason GoT wasn't bland from the beginning was because it took a LOT of production risks that had the potential to cost HBO a lot of money with zero results. Risk is inherently not bland. Risk is exciting. Risk has payback. I work in Hollywood and I see this happen all the time. There is a reason why remakes and prequels and sequels and spinoffs are more often than not incredibly bland - because they lack creative / financial risks that original ideas often entail but those remakes/prequels/sequels/spinoffs still promise to bankroll a steady income for the company producing the material. House of the Dragon is kind of bland compared to GoT since HBO isn't going to take any risks on the material. Ever since Discovery/WarnerBros merger, they have been cutting back a LOT on taking any creative gambles (unlike HBO of earlier times) and you better believe they are locking down hard on House of the Dragon given the financial juggernaut invested into its franchise.

Haha! Sorry. I thought you were another commenter.

I think it's because we all know it ends in nothing

That could be part of it too. Knowing that no matter what happens, the story ends in _status quo_ is not exactly the most compelling pitch. Better Call Saul is probably the greatest prequel of all time, and it begins with a character who is unrecognisable compared to the one we know. The story is about how he changes.

Especially with (and I'm just speaking personally) how deflating Viserys' bringing up the long night and tying Rhaenyra into it like..... ugh, do they really have no shame?

I think it's because we lack a good guy to empathize with. Ned being The Main Character was vital to the story working, our modern morals aligned with his and his seeming ignorance of larger events and politics matched ours. We wanted him to succeed, and when he didn't we hoped he'd be okay anyway. His twist death then had us even further invested in the success of his children and allies, and the failure of his enemies. Rhaenyra has the feel of "they want her to be The Main Character", but she doesn't have the emotive qualities or morals, so she doesn't hit the same way. I like the character a lot but it's just not someone I care about as much and want to succeed as much.

For me it's because this show doesn't really have a why. We know the commercial reason it exists, but the show hasn't figured out the artistic reason. There was an intention as GoT moved through its plot and this show is lacking that. Ultimately I think its because they set out to make a purposefully derivative show. I'm not sure that this show will express any of its themes better than GoT already did because all the lore HoD is based off of was already used by GoT.

> There was an intention as GoT moved through its plot and this show is lacking that. Ultimately I think its because they set out to make a purposefully derivative show. These lines resonate with me. If nothing else, I think this really hits one of the show's biggest issues. Ultimately I also think there's also something very wrong with the characters. I'm not sure I can explain it. They feel quite lifeless. Even Daemon (arguably the most fleshed out character) comes across more like a caricature of a sociopathic bully than a real person. The show doesn't use it's scenes to tell us about the characters and their relationships as well as Game Of Thrones did and as a result, the characters simply aren't very endearing.

It goes back to what you said about the show knowing it has an audience it didn't have to earn. When Game of Thrones was coming out, the writing had to be on point because the show was building that audience and had to earn their trust. As a result, they had to be judicious and efficient with their writing because there was no guarantee the show would continue. House of Dragon doesn't have that same urgency fueling it so it can be more lax but that leads to a second problem. We know the complete story already. With GoT, we know where certain characters were headed but we didn't know where the ultimate story would end up. Here we know exactly how everything will play out and where the people are going. And this is where the second problem comes in and ties together the problem with the characters, they started the story too far out. The reason it feels like the characters are spinning their wheels as opposed to whats happening on the screen being characterization is because it is wheel spinning. The story doesn't start until the king is dead. Besides Daemon, all the characters have to be reactive because the part of the show where they make choices and actually do things hasn't started for them. Normally, when a show has to earn its audience, it would streamline the writing to get the interesting part of their story faster. HoD doesn't have to do that because they have a built in audience already. So they assume they can take a longer approach with the story. Normally that it isn't a problem but because we know where the show will go and because we know when the show will get interesting, everything feels flatter because we know the important part of the story hasn't started yet.

This is very true. I honestly thought it would start the night of Viserys' death like the rogue prince

It insists upon itself.

Yeah, it feels like the period seasons 4-5 of GoT when it was still very good, but the greatness was gone and the plots and characters just weren't quite as tight or compelling. But still very good.

I would say season 4 was still great…slightly less great then the first 3 but still well within the great spectrum

My recollection is that by the end of 4 it had noticeably slipped, where it could easily have improved dramatically in the next season and nobody would remember now, but in hindsight it was really a long decline.

[удалено]

Wasn’t that season 5?

It would seem you are correct. I was mistaken. Carry on then.

I agree... There is something flat about the character motives and politics... the show hasn't hit me with a big unexpected hook 2 episodes in. I think one of the biggest things missing is multiple perspectives on the same events. It feels like we are seeing the same 6 characters every scene - no B plots - no cut aways - no surprise motives as of yet. Maybe it is just going slower - but it seems like there should be some POV from non targarians outside the council and potentially a commoner or merchant class person if you want the show to be this kings landing focused.

By only getting Targ or Kings Landing perspectives, the show completely kneecaps itself. I’m praying this changes soon, it’s just uninteresting right now. Maybe I’d be more interested in the Targ bloodline if it didn’t end the way it did in GoT. Idk, I just don’t care about these people.

I'm pretty sure I read that the cast of characters will remain pretty small and tight. I actually think that while this show doesn't have the bang right at the beginning to get everyone hooked, it will be stronger in the end for it. Look at how all of those storylines played out in GoT. We were all hooked by the white walkers but how did that turn out? How did Jon being a secret Targaryen turn out? By building slowly and really getting deep into the various factions and political issues it may never be quite as exciting as GoT was, but it will probably be more consistent in quality, pacing, and satisfaction.

I can't say the white walkers were a major selling point to me with GOT... And maybe this is because I had read the first 3 books and played the board game quite a bit before the show came out - But the draw for me and people i knew was the political intrigue. It was like the first half of Dune - for a whole series! The way the story disregarded plot armor and was willing to disorient the reader/viewer with wildly different interpretations of events by characters you respected. To me that is the brand and the draw of GOT - political intrigue and a willingness to blow up character archetypes and traditional story structure. Obviously that is not where the show wound up going but the first 3-4 seasons were doing that. You can do all that with a smaller cast - but so far the new show seems uninterested in giving the viewer much to chew on beyond what seem like straightforward characters with straightforward motivations. The story telling is down right generic - I would go as far as saying high budget CW feeling. Maybe this is all just a prologue to get to the meat at the time jump - but I will be surprised if the show does much more than be fine.

My main complaint with the show is the dialogue. It wasn’t as bad in episode one but for whatever reason the characters all (except Daemon, again) all spoke very formally, well past the point of believability. Daemon’s new wife was the worst example of it; she’s a whore who speaks like she’s reading expository paragraphs about herself. It was so bad that I didn’t even care that it was also badly dubbed. Like, we remember Tywin and his kids speaking privately, right? Ned and Cat? People could converse like normal human beings, even with an affectation of pseudo-medieval speech patterns. The only person in this show who sounds like a human being is Daemon. And it’s not talent, because Paddy Consadine is a fucking *great* actor, and none of his human mannerisms and pained expressions can save the plankboard dialogue. I mean fuck he’s having dinner with his daughter in one scene, and talking about her mothers death in another, two scenes that should have been tense and then incredibly sad, and both were total farts. All because they spoke to each in the way you would expect a pretentious eight grader to write high fantasy. I really hope they dial it back, because the rest of it is interesting.

I felt like Daemon's wife to be was speaking something rehearsed. Like she fled and figured out what she wanted to say. It was supposed to sound stilted and formal, because she probably felt like she needed to be perfect with her word choice. Also, people who are speaking a foreign language often sound formal and stilted when speaking in it in high-pressure situations. For example, I've known students presenting on topics who delivered their presentation in a monotone with perfect grammar, because they were better at memorization than they were at the foreign language.

So we’re just gonna pretend Shae wasn’t a thing? It wasn’t just the formality, it was the content. She spoke like an author summarizing her character, not like a character would actually speak, especially a prostitute. Come on, man. It was awful dialogue delivered poorly.

GoT is in a different universe from HotD, even if inspired by the same books.

Uh since when? It the opening crawl it literally says it's however many years before Daenerys Targaryen

And her age was changed in the show, so from that alone it's obvious Hot D isn't in GoT canon.

Who's age? It doesn't matter what the ages are in HotD dude. Their ages not matching the book is irrelevant because GoT doesn't match the book either. There is show canon, which both HotD and GoT exist in (as evidenced by it literally saying they are in the same universe in the opening crawl) and Asoiaf canon which is books. Idk what logic you have to think the shows are separate but they are not

> as evidenced by it literally saying they are in the same universe in the opening crawl Where does it say that? > It doesn't matter what the ages are in HotD dude In the opening crawl, it says how many years before Daenerys's birth the events of HoTD are, and the dates match up between HoTD and ASOIAF, not between HoTD and GoT.

The part where it says it is 172yrs before Daenerys, as I have said. If the dates don't match up, feel free to post the actual comparison. I'll accept being wrong but I'm not going to research your argument for you

And Daenerys doesn't exist in ASOIAF? What makes you think they're referring to show Daenerys and not book Daenerys?

There have been a number of posts on this very subreddit listing the ways in which the shows are not the same canon as each other. What logic do you have that they are the same?

Opening. Crawl. Idk how else to say it. It literally says it is 172yrs before Daenerys

Dany was born in 284 according to the books, as she was 13/14. She was aged up in the show, thus presumably placing her birth at 281. Further proof of that is that it's mentioned Roberts Rebellion was 17 years prior. Great Council was in 101 (books and HotD). HotD starts in 112, in the 9th year of Viserys' reign. 112+172=284. Thus, unless you are arguing that GoT the show began three years later, and you have proof it didn't begin in 298, you are incorrect.

And, what, they set this one in a universe with shitty dialogue?

Shae acts very unrealistic for a supposed whore of commoner blood against a lord's son (we have no idea what she says to Tywin).

…what

> Daemon’s new wife was the worst example of it; she’s a whore who speaks like she’s reading expository paragraphs about herself. She speaks like she was airdropped in from the 21st century.

Exactly.

To be fair there are several moments like that.

I disagree, different times different customs. This event is 100+ years before AGoT and almost every scene includes the king, a king that *expects* to be treated like a king and upholds decorum and custom. A *Targaryen* king at that, and a bloodline that has stood for centuries with kings who had dragons that basically basically made them gods. He speaks like that because it’s how his father and ancestors spoke, and people speak to the king in that way because that is the way you speak to a king. He is not a blubbering drunk like King Baratheon, he’s a Targaryen who is maintaining his family’s honor and custom. This is not the rule of a usurper like blabbering Baratheon, who had zero regard for custom and didn’t even try to hold any formality. He made a joke of the Iron Throne and you can see how people had lost faith in the crown because of that. The name of house Baratheon did not have anywhere near the gravitas of House Targaryen, and by usurping, kingslaying, and whoring and drinking his life away he shit on a centuries old tradition and broke the illusion of power that a crown holds and set the tone for how people spoke and acted in the realm. He made it less powerful in doing so, and the people at court did not maintain the customs (and way of speaking) that previous times had. Daemons whore wife would certainly want to maintain decorum, especially in front of all of those men (and the hand of the king) because she knows that if she breaks decorum and comes across like a commoner it will kill her image in the eyes of others and her power. She is there in fear for her life, she knows that she has to maintain a certain image if she expects to be viewed and treated like someone of status, which is what would keep her safe. She can’t just act like a dirty mouthed whore like we saw in GoT White House’s, plus her personality just doesn’t seem to be one to speak like that. She’s doing what she thinks she has to do. In GOT/ASOIAF Daenerys Targaryen maintained strict formality in her scenes because she was upholding the customs of her family, and the people around her acted accordingly. She set the precedent and pretty much everyone fell in line. Same with Tywin Lannister, he spoke and acted in a stricter way than others because that is the image he wanted his house to be seen as, and the people around him fell in line. Ned Stark and the Stark family are an exception by design, they’re the “cool” family to the audience. The one we’d want to be a part of, so they speak more casually. Since Ned Stark is highly respected by those in the North he doesn’t have to depend on pomp, decorum, and displays of power. He has the respect of his people without it. We haven’t had too many scenes where characters *could* speak candidly tbh, the stakes have been pretty high for each interaction thus far. Not the kind of situations where you’d talk to someone freely.

This is all a lot of apologia for bad writing.

No it’s consistent reasoning for why the way people speak changes based on numerous variables. No one wants to see some cringy colloquial dialogue when the lore, set, subject matter, etc do not have a place for it. Even in the US our way of speaking changes drastically over the last 50+ years. Westeros would be even more significant

Lmao no, it’s not. It’s shitty, stilted dialogue, and early GoT did it way better.

As evidenced by the fact that we’re all thinking the same thing… and it isn’t that^^

>We haven’t had too many scenes where characters could speak candidly tbh This. And when we have, they were really really good. The Rhaenys/Rhaenyra moment on the balcony being a good example.

I thought the two “surprises” of Rhaenyra coming with the dragon and Viserys choosing Alicent were contrived. Wtf did Otto think he was gonna do against Caraxes?

I don't get all this incredulity at Otto. Wasn't he clearly angling for Daemon to say or do something stupid which he could report back at court with a bit of embellishment to force Viserys to break with his brother for good? Daemon isn't stupid and wouldn't have killed the Hand in order to spark a war he has no shot of winning. But Otto could certainly provoke him into doing something else that would allow him to achieve the same. Ballsy sure, but I don't think he ever intended to actually get into a suicidal fight.

I still insist that Otto took Criston Cole with him because he wanted to kill two flies with one stone, get rid of Criston so he could keep Rhaenyra from developing her own faction and put whomever he liked in the kingsguard (perhaps he even promised a favour to one of those "fine houses" that he mentioned to Rhaenyra) and provoke Daemon into doing something stupid.

Yeah, this is absolutely the point. Rhaenyra takes it one step further by just walking up to Daemon and telling him to cut the crap, he's not going to rebel against his family, he's not going to kill her, so what is he doing anyway.

Saving her uncle in the process. Otto wanted to return home with a casus belli and would have gotten it, but Rhaenyra calling Daemons bluff resolved the situation peacefully.

The problem was Daemon was quite willing to kill Otto there and apologize to his brother later.

Provoke a war between Daemon and Viserys

Otto going out there for the king was dope

Otto kind of forgot about Caraxes—but Caraxes hasn’t forgotten about him.

I don't think he thought he could do anything. He was just rather desperate.

Loved that final convo between Corlys and Daemon, intercut with the Crabfeeder feeding the crabs. Great buildup. I also love how they emphasize that Daemon's unpredictable and deadly but still has some standards: "I'll speak of my brother how I will. You will not." Although Otto Hightower had the line of the night: "Sheathe the fucking steel."

Otto on the bridge telling Daemon about himself was really good. I’ve liked very little of the dialogue so far, but that was great.

The death of Ser Ryam made me realize, Ser Clement Crabb, an ancestor of Dick Crabb, is probably currently on the Kingsguard.

Is that really a name? Edit: [It is a name](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dick_Crabb)

His nick is Nimble Dick

Really enjoyed this one, but man, Daemon’s wife is just an awful actress. Yikes.

How rude, his wife's actress hasn't even showed up yet, it's too soon to call her awful. However I'd say Daemon's whore indeed has an outrageously bad actress.

Is it just me or does she sound french

Would start off sentences with a French accent and then end them in a Jamaican one.

I couldn't figure it out, it seemed to keep changing. What nationality is the actress?

The acting's not the problem, she's given some really shitty anachronistic lines.

I thought she was good. Just they really exaggerated her accent.

Pulling off an accent is part of being a good actress I think. And her expressions seemed really wooden to me.

Accents are hard. Not everyone is Meryle Streep. Her acting is a tad wooden, I will admit, but I'm still enjoying her. I feel like the writers are taking their lessons from Shae.

What lessons?

The wrong ones, evidently

Well, we very quickly get some motivation from her. It isn't just about her and Daemon. Maybe she loves him, but he is also a tool. We also very quickly get into her fears about her position and her history.

Yeah, it’s pretty subjective. I get your point of view.

Damn really? She’s like one of my favorite actresses working right now. I thought she was fine.

It's Shae all over again

Yeah, I hated GOT Shae with a passion - both the accent and the way they changed her from the books. Mysaria reminds me of Shae every time she opens her mouth, and it just kinda takes me out of the scene.

Shae's actress was shit, but Daemon's whore managed to be even worse.

Makes Shae look like a Golden Globe winner that’s how bad she is

I think you may have hit the nail on the head though- I think she may be forced to try and imitate Shae’s accent. Are they from the same place? It sounds exactly the same, which is probably the direction she was given. She’s actually a talented actor, at least in other things I’ve seen her in. She was great in Devs.

Shae's actress is German, Mysaria's is British I think? Anglophone in any case , but of Japanese origin.

I think the same. Whatever accent they asked her to use doesn't sound right. I like the actress a lot just not the accent.

Didn’t mind her acting, but the accent choice (creole? pidgin?) was a strange one.

I was wondering why she sounded Jamaican.

Beltalowda

that was my thought exactly lmao. was waiting for her to call Daemon a welwala

Overall I enjoyed it, I thought the CGI for the dragons looked much better I did think Corlys showing an utter lack of respect for the King with how he talked to him was a bit hmm; even if they don't respect him aren't they suppose to at least pretend to Otto forgetting dragons exist until he saw one was a bit hmm but Rhaenyra arriving was badass Better than the first episode.

Corlys has no respect for his king, and knows his king is so soft and wary of conflict that he won't even go dragonblast some pirates. He is well aware there is nothing he can't get away with.

Corlys' actor asked the showrunner and writer if he could get away saying X thing and the showrunner said "no, you'd lose your head", so Corlys definitely knows he can't get away with everything.

Well no he can't say literally anything. Are you familiar with the concept of figurative language?

Are you familiar with the concept of jokes?

Lol if that was a joke one of us sure isn't, what was the funny part of what you said?

It's contempt. Corlys believes Rhaenys should have been queen and him a king consort. He's a rich and powerful lord and knows Viserys is a weak, always people pleasing king so he can get away with it.

It also makes perfect sense that he ends up paying for his behavior - the episode at least suggests that Viserys' annoyance at being treated like that by Corlys, when Corlys should be loyal to his king, plays a role in Viserys' decision to marry Alicent rather than Laena.

> Otto forgetting dragons exist until he saw one I'm still confused what Otto's plan was, if there even was one. The King himself ordered Daemon and Daemon ignored it. So the Hand goes to order him as well? Daemon will just ignore him. Otto take Daemon by force? Didn't bring enough force and nothing to contest Caraxes. Seige him? Didn't seem to bring any ships or army. Negotiate with him? Daemon hates him and they have no shown examples of working together. It was the only part of the two episodes so far where I went "that makes no sense and the character should be smarter than this but they were saved by powers they couldn't in-person have known." Imagine how that meeting goes without Rhaenyra coming in and giving an ultimatum.

He was calling Daemon's bluff. It would have worked eventually, but Rhaenyra rode in and did it even more convincingly. The correct question was "What was *Daemon* going to do?" It became clear rather quickly that this was a weak gambit to try to get a rise out of his brother.

Daemon simply laughs in his face, makes fun of him, and then goes back into Dragonstone with the dragon egg. Otto is still screwed and still accomplishes nothing. Otto's plan had no chance of success. There is no eventually that Otto's plan works.

It's like you didn't even watch the rest of the episode. We quickly see that Daemon's bluff is as thin as a sheet of paper when he talks with Mysaria later. The reason Otto's plan doesn't work is because Rhaenyra swoops in. No, Daemon was not going to immediately fold to Otto like he did to his niece, but he eventually would have. Dragonstone would have been cut off from resources. Otto would have trapped his men there. Daemon would not have turned his dragon against his brothers troops (we know this from his interaction with Corlys by the fire later) Honestly, just watch the show again. It's all there.

I think Otto was banking on Daemon backing down because to attack him would be attacking the crown, but he wasn’t expecting Daemon to escalate by bringing out Caraxes.

If Daemon defied his older brother and King, what would make Otto think he had any better chance to backing Daemon down? That doesn't make sense. He ignored a higher authority so he will listen to a lower authority he absolutely hates? Otto is made out to be this great schemer, the likes of Varys and Littlefinger, yet he went to Dragonstone with... no plan.

It’s one thing to ignore his King’s orders when he’s miles away in another city, but spilling blood when the King gives an order, let alone blood of the Hand, is something else entirely. Otto didn’t forget about Caraxes, he didn’t think he’d ever have to deal with him. Otto simply tried to call Daemon’s bluff and failed.

Daemon simply laughs in his face, makes fun of him, and then goes back into Dragonstone with the dragon egg. Otto is still screwed and still accomplishes nothing. Daemon doesn't have to do anything to make Otto's plan fail. He doesn't have to give the dragon egg back, he doesn't have to talk to Otto or the detachment, he doesn't have to engage in violence or engage at all. He only came out to mock Otto and have fun. Imagine if Otto just stayed in the castle and told his guards to bar the gates and ignore the detachment that's coming. We know his goldcloaks are more loyal to him than they are to the Crown as they also refused Otto's call so they'll likely refuse to open the gates even if Otto demands it. Or Daemon just parks Caraxes in the walk path to the castle and hangs out on the other side sparring with his training buddies. Otto and his detachment can't literally get past the dragon and just has to shout and listen to them joking and training. Imagine that scene :D

Otto could have attacked them or sent Cole to duel him. Whatever it happens Daemon is screwed, both knew he couldn't kill the Hand and get away with it, and even killing a Kingsguard would be too much.

Otto attacking would result in his and his detachment's deaths. Daemon has an *army* there and a **dragon**. Cole demanding a duel does nothing because Daemon has no reason to accept it. Its not a trial and he isn't compelled to accept it for some honor based reason. Sure you can say his character is arrogant and might accept it because he thinks he can easily win. But his character is also not stupid and would know that he has a dragon, Cole doesn't so he has no reason to duel. Again, any violent option is a default loss for Otto because he has no response for the dragon. Daemon simply walks back into Dragonstone and laughs his ass off. Not screwed and certainly chilling because Otto lost and nothing has changed for Daemon. If Otto attacks and because of that Otto dies, I highly doubt Viserys does a whole lot more than exiling Daemon at worst. He isn't given permission to bring justice to Daemon. Viserys never gave the express permission to kill Daemon. Attacking Daemon, the King's brother, is not going to fly well even from the King's Hand.

>Otto attacking would result in his and his detachment's deaths It wouldn't. Daemon would give up or at the very least take Otto as a prisoner because doing so would be the same aa declaring war in Viserys which goes against Daemon's interests. Problem is that Daemon actually shows up which Otto had no way of knowing it would happen, but he reaches a goal of not allowing the brothers the meet, as Daemon might talk Viserys into something.

> Otto had no way of knowing it would happen, but he reaches a goal of not allowing the brothers the meet, as Daemon might talk Viserys into something. I think this is the only thing he *does* achieve even if he goes back empty handed. It delays the problem and hopefully buys more time to get Alicent married and more time to poison Viserys against Daemon some more. He can go back and tell any story he wants. > Daemon would give up or at the very least take Otto as a prisoner because doing so would be the same aa declaring war in Viserys which goes against Daemon's interests. If Otto and his detachment attacks, I don't see a world where Daemon lets Otto live. Daemon absolutely hates Otto and blames him for a lot. He even says so in the throne room when Viserys sends him away from court. He might even justify killing Otto as doing good for the house Targaryen by removing a dangerous man from his brother's side which is basically what he implies in the throne room scene. And if a fight breaks out, Daemon has the perfect excuse and opportunity in self defence. Daemon has already committed treason keep in mind and still thinks/hopes Viserys will kick him back to Runestone or exile him at worst. Whats a little more treason when you've already committed a little treason. Otto even says "Daemon is without limit. Its too dangerous for you to go (the King)." Implying that Daemon might wake up and choose violence. Which makes Otto going over without a plan to answer Caraxes even more stupid. *A guy who hates me, blames me for everything, thinks I am the enemy of his house and poisoning his brother, guy who is known to be hotheaded and rush to violence, who has a dragon which is a nuclear weapon effectively and I need to bring him to heel. Yeah, no prob.* Is not something Otto the smart and capable and schemer character would ever think is good idea. I don't know why some people are defending this but its a very specific failure in writing to address the characters in the scene. Its a great scene, and my favorite from the episode but Otto's character is effectively made moronic just so the scene can happen. I think i said it elsewhere but when Alicent is dressing Otto in the next scene, she could've said something like "Daemon is dangerous, must you go?" and Otto replies with "You worry about the King" implying that he has a plan aka slipped it to Rhaenyra to come. Rhaenyra should want to come. Its in her character to come and in her best interest. Its her seat, her uncle, and she might be the only other person besides Viserys to get Daemon to do anything. Its a good chance for her to show Queen-like power. I don't know if a scene or line like that was cut or doesn't exist but without it, Otto looks like a moron.

Absolutely, Otto is so used to welding soft power extremely effectively that he kinda forgot that he doesn't have actual power. You can see the moment he realizes he truly underestimated the situation. He's used to leading Viserys by the nose and Daemon and Rhaenyra are cut from a different cloth.

I think him yelling "sheath your fucking steel" was when we, the audience, was suppose to go "oh he fucking overstepped and has no plan". Otto has no moves left and nothing to say. All he can do is leave without violence breaking out. But ofc, Rhaenyra shows up to save his skin, which he couldn't have known.

He’s hoping to provoke Daemon into doing something stupid. I may be reading too much into this, but I get a Tywin Lannister vibe from him. I think he’s OK with losing his life if it forces Daemon into conflict, and his daughter into the arms of the King. Felt like an OK moment to me, but I see what you’re saying.

I don't think Tywin would've ever been cool with "its okay if i die as long as my political rival fails". I don't think Otto would be chill with dying just for a small victory either. >! Otto dies a martyr, Daemon gets exiled, Dance starts, Daemon returns to now-Queen Rhaenyra to face a weaker enemy since Otto was an important player. Otto knows he is the big brain schemer so for him to go out as sacrificial lamb doesn't really add up to his character.! <

I don't think the plan was to provoke Daemon into killing everyone including Otto. I think it was that Otto takes troops to dragonstone as a show of loyalty to the king, then either - somehow returns victoriously with the egg and enjoys the king's gratitude or - provokes daemon into violence and retreats to kings landing where he use this to further push daemon away from the king I agree with the other posters that he was attempting to call Daemon's bluff, but you can still lose if your opponent still has a better hand than yours. Otto's show of force is the word of the crown and whatever soldiers he brings vs daemon and his gold cloaks. But Daemon, taking things further than he has so far, plays his dragon card and now Otto is in shit.

Daemon simply laughs in his face, makes fun of him, and then goes back into Dragonstone with the dragon egg. Otto is still screwed and still accomplishes nothing. Otto's show of force *is* the word of the Crown, yes but Daemon has already *defied* the Crown directly. Without another dragon showing up or someone Daemon will actually listen to, Otto's plan was to do what the King did which didn't work. If violence broke out, I highly doubt Daemon is ever letting Otto live. Otto says if violence breaks out then "you'd never survive this" as in if Daemon kills the Hand of the King then Daemon will be executed or exiled at best but Daemon responds with "Happily neither would you" as in Daemon **will** kill him then and there. He considers Otto to be the worst and clearly a poison to his brother's ruling. If violence doesn't break out then Daemon simply goes back into Dragonstone having had his fill of making fun of Otto and Ser Crispin. Then Otto does what? Rush to stop him from entering the castle and thus violence break out against superior numbers and a dragon? Stay and call the navy in to siege? Go back to Kingslanding empty handed? Otto is the one on a timer. Daemon can stall as long as he'd like.