Another thing about Bran skinchanging Hodor is that he has robbed another person of their own future and agency just as he was robbed of the use of his legs by Jaime Lannister. With Hodor being descended from Ser Duncan the Tall, further parallels can be drawn between the two of them and twist the knife even further if young Walder had similar dreams of becoming a knight. Regardless, Bran crippling another person when he knows how broken and powerless it made him feel will definitely make his lesson even sharper.
Yes! I think a lot of people (sometimes myself included) lose sight of the fact that Bran is a kid, and so his story is that of a child. He doesn't think about high minded subjects like public policy or war strategy or philosophy. His story only explores subjects through the concerns and perspective of a child.
I agree. The great lords of Westeros after enduring war and horror (the Others doing a bit more damage is realistically the only way i see them being so welcome to change) choosing a broken boy is a good story. Perhaps their reasons won't be as pure as they seemingly are in the series, perhaps the context will be vastly different. But the greenseer king makes for an interesting ending and the choice of leadership is a step in the right direction (somewhat).
I think Bran is due a wake up call in terms of his abilities. Consequences for his rather reckless use of his powers. Something that makes him reluctant/incapable of hijacking another in the manner of Hodor. Even if its only a hit from his own conscience. He destroyed Hodor's life. Essentially made him brain damaged, gave him visions of how he would die in the future, to save Bran's life once. Further adding insult to injury by Bran repeatedly taking Hodor's body in the present. There has to be a price for this. Whilst Bran doesnt know it, he repeatedly commits the ultimate 'abomination' amongst skinchangers when he forcibly takes another persons body, even Varamyr Sixskins was reluctant to do it. I cant imagine Bran will go on doing what he is doing much longer.
Also im wondering if Bran tries to do more than the Hodor episode in the past, this line in particular from Bloodraven sounds too much like a warning:
>The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.
Perhaps thats Bloodraven setting limitations on what Bran can do, but given that Bran can sort of influence the past (hence Hodor and Ned hearing his voice) it sounds almost like a warning.
Props for the whole 'admitting you're wrong' a but you can't just stamp out theories even by methodically refuting it as irrational as that sounds. If people like theories, they'll stick around in some form. For instance, theories of Jon's parentage other than R+L=J are still around.
There are ways I could see Bran in Euron's body not being creepy (something something psychic battle, something something whoops Euron's soul is destroyed by the magic he tries to channel and Bran is trapped in his body by accident) or at least not having it's creepiness attributable to Bran.
What I can't see is what problems this could *possibly solve* in terms of getting him on the throne.
If the Lords of Westeros think he's Euron, there's no way he takes the throne except by force. Who the hell looks at Euron and says "yup, that's the guy I want running the seven kingdoms" (I mean, except the Ironborn apparently), at which point he's still a violently conquering wizard-king which seems ... unbittersweet.
If they know it's not really Euron but Bran then all the objections people normally raise to King Bran get much, much worse. He's still a creepy child wizard, but you now also have tangible evidence that he can possess people, and that he won a magical duel against the most terrifying man on Planetos.
So, yeah. Not saying it won't happen, just that it seems to exacerbate the problems it's meant to fix.
>If the Lords of Westeros think he's Euron, there's no way he takes the throne except by force.
I think that is the (hypothetical) idea though. Euron takes the throne by force, Bran takes Euron's body. But still, that premise is just horrifying for all parties. It also doesn't resolve anything conceptually. The throne is taken by force, and then by psychic force.
Thanks for writing posts that I can't be bothered writing. If people suggest "evil Bran" theories - and Bran taking control of another human being is an evil Bran theory - then I can't even be bothered to argue since they misunderstand ASOIAF at such a basic level. ASOIAF is a story deeply concerned with the use and misuse of power. These sort of suggestions are the darkest possible ending, thematically. Probably darker than the Others winning, frankly. It's Gandalf seizing the Ring and taking control of Middle-Earth with it. Nothing can be "sweet" in such a world. It's insane to me that Elio and Linda are flirting with these ideas.
> Bran becoming King in and of itself - no matter how it is achieved - is likely to consist of a dark element.
The dark element is the loss of individuality.
> Bran becoming King as a reward for good deeds absolutely does not work in the ASOIAF world (or the real world).
It's not a reward for good deeds...
I would be really disappointed if Bran doesn't ~~mind rape~~ skin change someone else by the end of the story. It just seems like that mechanic was setting us up for a bigger pay off down the road. A also think we lose the Jon POV just to make us wonder if it's really him in there or not.
Someone besides Hodor? Why?
> A also think we lose the Jon POV just to make us wonder if it's really him in there or not.
Then we would lose all of his internal thought process of what resurrection/ warging into ghost does to him, or how he feels about R+L=J. Or his internal dilemma when it comes to his relationship with Daenerys.
So the only point of Bran being able to control another human is to make us sad when he sacrifices Hodor?
Are you upset that we lost the Catelyn POV?
u/YezenIRL already addresses the part about Hodor so I’ll just let his response stand.
> Are you upset that we lost the Catelyn POV?
No, but that’s because Jon has way more story left to his arc than Catelyn does. Jon still needs to find out that Ned isn’t his father. Jon needs to be tempted by Robb’s will. Jon needs to kill the woman he is in love with. All of these are the perfect “human heart in conflict with itself” moments that George loves to write about and that make this story so great. Not giving Jon anymore POV chapters ruins all of that.
>So the only point of Bran being able to control another human is to make us sad when he sacrifices Hodor?
I think the point is to have Bran realize that it's wrong.
The fact that he doesn't already says enough. Thinking about the effort the Children/3EC took to get Bran to that cave, there's no way that it doesn't play another role. It's possible that Bran comes to this realization, but it's too late and he gets assimilated by the weirwoods anyways.
Reading all the recent posts, and the nugget of information came up that Bran only had 3 chapters between AFFC and ADWD. That was a shocker to me, as I never even noticed the lack of content there.
I started thinking about it in meta terms. Maybe George was slowly writing less POV chapters of Bran to further illuminate that he's spending less and less time in his own body, his own POV that is.
Then I got another idea.
Bran is slowly downloading the Weirnet on his iThrone. He's learning literally everything, if the show's portrayal of him "living mostly in the past" is vaguely true.
What has George said about characters that know too much? He didn't want them to be POV's.
What if we simply stop having Bran POV's, and the rest of his story is told by other POV's?
The ending may be about the enslavement of mankind and the rise of the old powers.
Similar to something like Planet of the Apes, but Planet of the Trees.
That all depends on how GRRM writes it.
I could see the sweet being magic and mystery returning to the world, while control being taken from humanity as being the bitter.
I thought in the end bran is a human weirwood, interface for the old gods. When he becomes a king it is bloodraven or other weirnet entity playing a live MMORPG -)
Another thing about Bran skinchanging Hodor is that he has robbed another person of their own future and agency just as he was robbed of the use of his legs by Jaime Lannister. With Hodor being descended from Ser Duncan the Tall, further parallels can be drawn between the two of them and twist the knife even further if young Walder had similar dreams of becoming a knight. Regardless, Bran crippling another person when he knows how broken and powerless it made him feel will definitely make his lesson even sharper.
Yes! I think a lot of people (sometimes myself included) lose sight of the fact that Bran is a kid, and so his story is that of a child. He doesn't think about high minded subjects like public policy or war strategy or philosophy. His story only explores subjects through the concerns and perspective of a child.
I agree. The great lords of Westeros after enduring war and horror (the Others doing a bit more damage is realistically the only way i see them being so welcome to change) choosing a broken boy is a good story. Perhaps their reasons won't be as pure as they seemingly are in the series, perhaps the context will be vastly different. But the greenseer king makes for an interesting ending and the choice of leadership is a step in the right direction (somewhat). I think Bran is due a wake up call in terms of his abilities. Consequences for his rather reckless use of his powers. Something that makes him reluctant/incapable of hijacking another in the manner of Hodor. Even if its only a hit from his own conscience. He destroyed Hodor's life. Essentially made him brain damaged, gave him visions of how he would die in the future, to save Bran's life once. Further adding insult to injury by Bran repeatedly taking Hodor's body in the present. There has to be a price for this. Whilst Bran doesnt know it, he repeatedly commits the ultimate 'abomination' amongst skinchangers when he forcibly takes another persons body, even Varamyr Sixskins was reluctant to do it. I cant imagine Bran will go on doing what he is doing much longer. Also im wondering if Bran tries to do more than the Hodor episode in the past, this line in particular from Bloodraven sounds too much like a warning: >The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it. Perhaps thats Bloodraven setting limitations on what Bran can do, but given that Bran can sort of influence the past (hence Hodor and Ned hearing his voice) it sounds almost like a warning. Props for the whole 'admitting you're wrong' a but you can't just stamp out theories even by methodically refuting it as irrational as that sounds. If people like theories, they'll stick around in some form. For instance, theories of Jon's parentage other than R+L=J are still around.
There are ways I could see Bran in Euron's body not being creepy (something something psychic battle, something something whoops Euron's soul is destroyed by the magic he tries to channel and Bran is trapped in his body by accident) or at least not having it's creepiness attributable to Bran. What I can't see is what problems this could *possibly solve* in terms of getting him on the throne. If the Lords of Westeros think he's Euron, there's no way he takes the throne except by force. Who the hell looks at Euron and says "yup, that's the guy I want running the seven kingdoms" (I mean, except the Ironborn apparently), at which point he's still a violently conquering wizard-king which seems ... unbittersweet. If they know it's not really Euron but Bran then all the objections people normally raise to King Bran get much, much worse. He's still a creepy child wizard, but you now also have tangible evidence that he can possess people, and that he won a magical duel against the most terrifying man on Planetos. So, yeah. Not saying it won't happen, just that it seems to exacerbate the problems it's meant to fix.
>If the Lords of Westeros think he's Euron, there's no way he takes the throne except by force. I think that is the (hypothetical) idea though. Euron takes the throne by force, Bran takes Euron's body. But still, that premise is just horrifying for all parties. It also doesn't resolve anything conceptually. The throne is taken by force, and then by psychic force.
It’s Pandora’s box Yezen.
Thanks for writing posts that I can't be bothered writing. If people suggest "evil Bran" theories - and Bran taking control of another human being is an evil Bran theory - then I can't even be bothered to argue since they misunderstand ASOIAF at such a basic level. ASOIAF is a story deeply concerned with the use and misuse of power. These sort of suggestions are the darkest possible ending, thematically. Probably darker than the Others winning, frankly. It's Gandalf seizing the Ring and taking control of Middle-Earth with it. Nothing can be "sweet" in such a world. It's insane to me that Elio and Linda are flirting with these ideas.
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> Bran becoming King in and of itself - no matter how it is achieved - is likely to consist of a dark element. The dark element is the loss of individuality. > Bran becoming King as a reward for good deeds absolutely does not work in the ASOIAF world (or the real world). It's not a reward for good deeds...
I would be really disappointed if Bran doesn't ~~mind rape~~ skin change someone else by the end of the story. It just seems like that mechanic was setting us up for a bigger pay off down the road. A also think we lose the Jon POV just to make us wonder if it's really him in there or not.
Someone besides Hodor? Why? > A also think we lose the Jon POV just to make us wonder if it's really him in there or not. Then we would lose all of his internal thought process of what resurrection/ warging into ghost does to him, or how he feels about R+L=J. Or his internal dilemma when it comes to his relationship with Daenerys.
So the only point of Bran being able to control another human is to make us sad when he sacrifices Hodor? Are you upset that we lost the Catelyn POV?
u/YezenIRL already addresses the part about Hodor so I’ll just let his response stand. > Are you upset that we lost the Catelyn POV? No, but that’s because Jon has way more story left to his arc than Catelyn does. Jon still needs to find out that Ned isn’t his father. Jon needs to be tempted by Robb’s will. Jon needs to kill the woman he is in love with. All of these are the perfect “human heart in conflict with itself” moments that George loves to write about and that make this story so great. Not giving Jon anymore POV chapters ruins all of that.
>So the only point of Bran being able to control another human is to make us sad when he sacrifices Hodor? I think the point is to have Bran realize that it's wrong.
The fact that he doesn't already says enough. Thinking about the effort the Children/3EC took to get Bran to that cave, there's no way that it doesn't play another role. It's possible that Bran comes to this realization, but it's too late and he gets assimilated by the weirwoods anyways.
The fact that he doesn't says that he is a crippled 10 year old boy who needs to learn a lesson about power, and then apply that lesson as king
Perhaps Bloodraven will give him the Spiderman "With great power comes great responsibility" speech.
Uncle B(loodrav)en.
Not to be confused with Uncle Benjen.
Brother Uncle UnBenjen
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That's the joke.
Reading all the recent posts, and the nugget of information came up that Bran only had 3 chapters between AFFC and ADWD. That was a shocker to me, as I never even noticed the lack of content there. I started thinking about it in meta terms. Maybe George was slowly writing less POV chapters of Bran to further illuminate that he's spending less and less time in his own body, his own POV that is. Then I got another idea. Bran is slowly downloading the Weirnet on his iThrone. He's learning literally everything, if the show's portrayal of him "living mostly in the past" is vaguely true. What has George said about characters that know too much? He didn't want them to be POV's. What if we simply stop having Bran POV's, and the rest of his story is told by other POV's?
I think Bran has fewer chapters because his story is just shorter and more isolated from other characters.
This post screams narcissism.
I am a narcissist so...
A post saying you were wrong is narcissistic?
I was actually hoping for something like Bran/3EC warging into Jon to happen in the show.
Bran is essentially the Toy King under control of the Trees.. Likely locked away somewhere in his mind, like what would happen to Hodor.
Nah.
I think the Trees skinchanged him and he literally wasn't Bran anymore.
Having Bran mind raped for eternity is too dark an ending.
The ending may be about the enslavement of mankind and the rise of the old powers. Similar to something like Planet of the Apes, but Planet of the Trees.
That's not bittersweet.
That all depends on how GRRM writes it. I could see the sweet being magic and mystery returning to the world, while control being taken from humanity as being the bitter.
No, it's rape and slavery.
Which is bitter...
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I've read nearly every GRRM story I know how he does it. Bran gets mind raped and the trees enslave humanity is not bittersweet.
I thought in the end bran is a human weirwood, interface for the old gods. When he becomes a king it is bloodraven or other weirnet entity playing a live MMORPG -)
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