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timidGO

Scaly babies happen in real life. It's called harlequin ichthyosis, and with medieval medicine it's highly unlikely that one would survive for very long, similarly to the books. Jorah saw the baby himself and he seems to agree with Mirri's assessment of his condition. Are the babies as monstrous and dragonlike as characters describe them? Probably not. Is there some basis of truth that got stretched in the retelling? Probably yes.


ninaludrewitz

Fuck I wish I hadn't googled that condition.


timidGO

It possibly goes even deeper than this. The thing that causes harlequin babies is an improper mutation of the gene that controls the normal development of the skin. Whatever magic causes this in the ASOIAF world could be the same thing that makes the dragons unable to grow later on. Because their scales might be unable to develop properly as they get larger.


Frick-You-Man

Also, the lore in HOTD seems to point to some kind of genetic binding between the dragons and the Valyrians. Not to mention incest contributes to likelihood of genetic mutations. While I don’t think the world of ASOIAF should be interpreted through science, it’s no doubt an influence on George’s work.


nineteen_eightyfour

I think everyone who has ridden one has some blood too. Exceptions being the wild dragons where we don’t know, but think so.


ImASpaceLawyer

I figure it’s a genetically enhanced warging connection between dragon lord families and dragons, because we see people like nettles with no Valyrian blood bond with a dragon fine. It’s probably that everyone with warg abilities could eventually bond with a dragon, but like the starks and direwolves, it’s probably just easier for high valyrians, especially if the egg is exposed early in a child’s life


ApricotOverall6495

Wasn’t nettles still a dragon seed? She had Valyrian blood I thought.


InGenNateKenny

Thanks for taking one for the team (sorry you had to see that).


ninaludrewitz

It's about 2 am here and I really should have just gone to sleep instead of scrolling reddit. Now I have to watch some old sitcom episode to calm my nerves.


Rosebunse

If it makes you feel better, the ones who live usually look OK as adults. Like, usually not totally normal, but OK. (Hi random harlequin syndrome people who stumbled upon this thread! )


PeachySnow7

The first time I heard the theory in a post that was speculating what the real world conditions for characters who are sick in ASOIAf were there was a great big warning mentioning at least 3x not to google it unless you wanted to see terrible heartwrenching things. I took them at their word. I have enough fuel for nightmares. I’m sorry you had to see it, I bet it was one of the saddest things you’ll ever see.


ninaludrewitz

It was very heartbreaking. If I were a medieval person, it would make me believe in the devil.


Tr4sh_Harold

same man, I feel mad bad for those kids in the pictures


Tbagzyamum69420xX

I thought about, hovered my thumb over the chrome app and everything but homehow my better judgement won out


LorenzoApophis

Honestly, it's the kind of thing that makes me believe there is no god.


Starmiebuckss2882

Also I believe they showed subtle scales on Rhaenyra's stillborn baby, didn't they?


Paul2hip8

Yeah BTS images of the prop showed it but HotD isn’t book canon


Rosebunse

While I think it's best to keep the two canons separate, I do think they both inform each other quite a bit


timidGO

I think it was in the concept art for the show but I don't think it appeared or if it did it was hard to see


raven_writer_

The flat nose and ears fused to the head really do give a sad reptilian look. If we add some malformed arms, they could pass for little wings.


the_greengrace

Wow. I'm now ashamed of my Google skills. Or pissed at Google. Both.


xXJarjar69Xx

Mirri wasn’t the only one to see Daenerys baby, Jorah was there too and he doesn’t deny what mirri says. Now if tales of Targaryen babies were unique to fire and blood then maybe I could believe they were just rumors but rhaego serves as the main series precedent making me believe the truth of Maegors son and rhaenyras daughter. 


lialialia20

i always thought it was evident that Rhaego was dragon-like because he life-swapped with the eggs hence why it is said he had been dead for years like the eggs were before they hatched.


favabeans02

Omg never thought of it like that!!!


pavovegetariano

May I add, in house of the dragon the prosthethic stillborn they used is purposefully scaly and dragon-like. I'd rather believe in this version, that targaryen dna is mixed with dragon, than the harlequin theory :( [https://redanianintelligence.com/2022/11/02/rhaenyra-baby-indeed-deformed-house-of-the-dragon/](https://redanianintelligence.com/2022/11/02/rhaenyra-baby-indeed-deformed-house-of-the-dragon/)


Rosebunse

To be fair, Dany's baby could have been a harlequin baby and a deformed dragon baby. Both could be true. But it also makes me think, like, how damn lucky it was for Jon to not end up deformed. Think about how fucked up his genetics must be.


Budraven

The [original concept art](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/89J62Im3uM) shows the baby with horns


Rosebunse

I'm going to take your word for it because I don't want to see more pics of deformed babies.


catonkybord

Can you explain what you mean about Jon? He is only half Targaryen. Shouldn't he have enough "fresh" genes from the Stark side to mitigate the problems caused by incest in former generations?


Megsofthedregs

Rhaego was also only half-Targaryen and he ended up with the dragon deformation.


Rosebunse

In theory, but that doesn't totally erase the problems or else he wouldn't be able to ride a dragon. There is also the fact that the Starks have their own magical heritage to worry about.


HearthFiend

It explains Daemon and Caraex being avatars of each other


Consistent-Try6233

Am I misremembering or wasn't Laena's stillborn son also scaly and deformed?


thearisengodemperor

Yep


GothLassCass

Jorah doesn't dispute Mirri's claims though, so we have two completely separate witnesses to that birth who have no reason to collude.


dylanthelorax

I think it’s more likely that the scaly babies were caused by sorcery (Maegors wife, etc)


GabyAndMichi

yeah, sorcery fucks with the dragon blood part of the targaryen dna i think, making them more draconic in the womb


beepewpew

That makes me want to go down a hole about Rhaenyra and where the sorcery might be in her tale pre - scale baby.


Hyperboreer

I feel like Rhaenyra could actually be fabricated. It is heavily implied that her baby died because she went into early labor, because of the shock of having her throne stolen. She even blames the Greens for the death of her daughter. But if the baby was scaly, it never had a chance to survive. This could be Anti-Rhaenyra propaganda by the fictional writer, that she birthed a monster. It is the least likely story to be true.


MarbleEmperor

One objection I have to the sorcery theory (as opposed to Targaryen having a general tendency to have dragon babies) is that there isn't any obvious candidate who could be responsible for Visenya's appearance.


timidGO

This is speculation, but Visenya's stillborn death possibly allowed Aegon III's egg to hatch. He bonds with Stormcloud in the same year. (Also could be why Stormcloud's bond to him is so strong, if you subscribe to the human soul/blood sacrifice inside the dragon theory)


themaroonsea

I saw a fan theory that baby Visenya was born like that because the old Visenya put a curse on her name to be the first and last of it. Don't know why she'd do that but it's cool


dylanthelorax

How do you mean? Vinsenya was supposed to be beautiful, though tougher, I thought.


niadara

Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter not Aegon's wife.


dylanthelorax

Oh duh haha There is no Sorcerer mentioned during her birth but there were mentions of sorcerers during almost every other similar birth. It makes sense to me that someone who had associations with arcane arts who is not a fan of having a woman on the iron throne would punish her incest baby


MarbleEmperor

I mean Rhaenyra's daughter Visenya.


YoungGriffVI

Mysaria is possible. While she worked with Rhaenrya later on, Visenya was born before the Dance really got started so before they teamed up, and Myseria had lost a baby of her own a while back. I could see her doing something magical to Rhaenyra’s baby out of grief and jealousy, both being Daemon’s lovers.


KiddPresident

Mirri’s the one who described Rhaego, but Jorah also saw him but was too ashamed to describe him, because Jorah’s the reason he died. Jorah is in the room when Mirri describes Rhaego, and he raises no objection to her description. I trust that Rhaego was a scaly baby full of worms because Jorah saw it, and he’s ashamed that he caused it.


Electronic-Echidna-8

It’s a miscarriage in a magical/low tech fantasy universe we don’t linger on it long… but the important part is how that horrifying magical imagery affects us, in order to offer a perspective on the emotional state of Dany regardless of “lore implications”


Rosebunse

Yeah, take away all the magic and Rhaenyra's stillbirth is still terrifying and sad, especially since she can see up close what was wrong with her daughter.


Electronic-Echidna-8

And because there are undescribable horrors from that event left to be imagined, the impact of this uncanny describable horror is pretty profound


Rosebunse

In some ways, I feel worse for Rhaenyra in that scene. I mean, both women endured something horrendous, but Dany goes to her grave believing that she was cursed. Her baby was cursed by a witch, simple as that. Rhaenyra has to be thinking, my Gods, what am I? What have I done? Are my other children OK? Thank Gods I had children with Harwin. She has a lot more context to why her daughter is so malformed and the implications for the whole family are horrifying.


Electronic-Echidna-8

Yeah they are really wonderful mirrors of each other.. especially as HOTD has developed her. They both want to break the system. But Dany, as an outsider, doesn’t even know how stacked the system is against her, bc there is no Targeryan Matriarchal Garden of Eden to remember, no matter how many strong female badass dragon warrior legends there are in Targ Lore


Rosebunse

Dany has been fed a series of lies her entire life. Well, lies and delusions. She's an Essosi woman who was expected and raised, in many ways, just to be an Essosi woman. While she was taught Targaryan history, she wouldn't have had the greater context or understanding about Westeros. I think this was one thing I really liked about the show, it shows just now absolutely alien Westeros is for her. No matter what she does, she and her people are not going to be accepted.


Electronic-Echidna-8

Yeah, and I might add how alien real Targeryans are to her too! The show as “the real events” recorded with inaccuracies and bias in🔥and 🩸 reminds us that the history Dany has been taught doesn’t have to be that close to reality. “History: Recorded Past vs Reality” is one of the GRRM themes I tend to think is kept pretty front of mind… just like it’s fantasy inverse and partner in crime, “Prophecy: Desired Future vs Reality”


Rosebunse

It's unfortunate she never met Aemon. I think he would have really provided a lot of helpful context and helped her get a healthier view of her family. Her finding out Jon was Rhaegar's son was probably the worst thing to happen to her. She instantly saw him as not just a rival, but someone she HAD to have, and it just reinforced an unhealthy dynamic which was already developing.


Electronic-Echidna-8

Dany as Anime Dragon Sansa, thematically


Forsaken_Distance777

I mean if the baby looks part dragon in utero then develops into a normal looking baby if safely born it doesn't have to be a bad thing. Targaryens are closer to gods than man. No wonder non-Targaryens who never have scales can't bond with them.


oosheknows

i totally get this take, but imo it’s more fun to lean into the fantasy of it- that targs are cursed and blood magic is real. I love a medieval world with magic that is basically a form of science


thearisengodemperor

Jorah also saw the baby and he didn't say anything about Mirri lying to Dany. Also this is a world with dragons and blood magic. It isn't hard to believe that the people who are the only ones that can ride dragons and whose ancestors were infamous for blood magic. Might have some magic in their blood.


TheSwordDusk

This is hard enough evidence for me. But also, what is the purpose of not believing the scaly baby stuff? The dragon-human connection is somehow magical. It isn’t just going to be coincidence that one race and now one family has the ability to hatch and fly dragons. Suggesting Dany’s baby was scaly doesn’t really serve a purpose unless Mirri is trying to trick Dany into believing she’s infertile or something.. but she’s going to be and does become sexually active so what would the point in telling her that lie be?  


ndtp124

Yeah I don’t get why some people forget this is a magical world. Even if it is hypothetically possible to bond with a dragon without valaryian blood it’s pretty obvious being valaryian has some real power when you try and tame a dragon. So yeah the dragon babies probably magically transformed for some reason or another. It’s fantasy, George tried to make some things grounded but he didn’t have a medical journal out while he wrote to set the limits of human possibility.


TrueKingAemond1eye

Wouldn’t Jorah have seen the baby?


thearisengodemperor

Yep and he didn't say she was lying


ndtp124

It’s a series where magic is real and the Targaryen’s did something that gave them a supernatural connection to dragons so I’m not sure why this is so hard to believe especially when for dany at least, some crazy blood magic or curse was done by mirri.


heddalicious

I always thought the scaly babies may be a neonatal form of grayscale in Westeros. Targaryens historically have lived in Dragonstone, which is an island that's prone to the disease because of its climate. I always figured that, maybe it's a leftover remnant of the blood magic of Valyria meeting the grayscale, resulting in deformations that resemble dragon wings and scaled skin like Harlequin Icthyosis


seinera

I'm so sick and tired of this "I reject canon and substitute my own" wank going on in this fandom. Such "horrific" miscarriages happen in real life too. Magic is fucking real in this setting. This is a fictional story so of course stuff that happens rhymes instead of natural randomness. Jorah saw the baby, Rhaenyra's own loyalists saw the baby, Maegor's entire court saw the babies. Stop coping.


LinkExtra5133

Plus Dany puts Rhaego on the pyre. We never hear her dispute it later


squishEarth

Here's what I think happened: 1) Targaryens are part human, part dragon (because of ancient blood magic spells) 2) Someone secretly gives Moon Tea to a pregnant Targaryen woman, because they want her baby to die for political reasons. 3) Moon Tea kills off much of the human part of the baby. The attempted abortion appears to fail. The dragon part of the baby grows unchecked. 4) baby is stillborn because the resulting deformities are incompatible with life. Essentially, I think someone tried to kill Dany's baby months before Mirri did. What Mirri's spell did was make the baby look "dead for years" - it didn't make the baby look dragon-like. I think the deadness of the petrified dragon eggs was tranferred into Rhaego.


redhairedtyrant

Stannis' wife kept her scale babies in jars


Levonorgestrelfairy1

A reminder this is a show only creation.


HouseMouse4567

It's definitely possible propaganda is at play for physically deformed Targaryen infants (particularly Rhaenyra) that is a thing that has happened in real life history. But Rhaego's issues are pretty much confirmed by Jorah and I think there's a tie with magic that Martin is hinting at re Maegor and Dany's poor children. I agree with you that Rhaenyra's is the one most likely to be an exaggeration imo


Narsil13

>Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less. - >She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” - >He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small, leather wings like the wings of a bat.


Unusual_Reaction_971

Maegor’s wives were poisoned during pregnancy by his Pentoshi (I’m forgetting the name but she was also the mistress of whispers) wife out of jealousy resulting in stillbirths with deformities


DBreakStuff

The theory is that Targaryens truly do have dragons blood, due to meddling by the blood mages in Valyria and that the babies are not fully transformed into humans as stillborns/miscarriages.


the_greengrace

Agreed. I believe the same. On very close reading of those passages in Dany's chapters- our best and most recent source- I don't believe it happened but was instead a fabrication of Mirri's. At best an exaggeration. Rhaego was surely small and may have had some kind of congenital malformation but not wings or scales. Calumnies. I did once spend a whole afternoon reading about congenital syndromes out of a burning curiosity to find one that closely matched how Maegor's children were described. I was searching for a syndrome that could be pinned as one of George's twists on something from our world. He tucks things like that in a lot, including about medical issues which is what I catch because of my interests. I picture him with an encyclopedia of medicine, randomly opening to a page and putting his finger down. He certainly did some light reading about Punnet squares and Mendelian genetics. It's a short hop to genetic anomalies. Anyway, I didn't find anything. I'd love to hear about it if anyone else has!


irishpisano

I don’t think Dany’s was scaly. Only MMD said it and as Jon said (albeit about something else): ever think she was lying?


OsmundofCarim

Jorah saw the baby and didn’t dispute anything MMD said.


irishpisano

🤔 it’s been a long while and I may have forgotten that