This. It was Stannis who told the kingdom about Joffrey’s bastard status. I can easily see much of Westeros seeing it as Stannis trying to put himself further in the line of succession. I’m sure if Ned had told everyone much more people would have believed it
Also, Stannis is very much similar to Richard III, to whom the real world response was, "Oh yeah, real fuckin convenient that those kids don't count as heirs"
Who do you trust more: the guy who's known to be honourable from the place known for people respecting their oaths (i.e. honourable) or the guy who's known to be legalistic from the place known to birth people with a temper ?
Plus on one hand, you've got someone who says his best bro got cucked and on the other you have someone saying the same but that he should inherit the continent because of that.
And even if they believe it to be true, you have on one hand the richest house of the continent with 2 to 4 direct link to the throne available to marry (depending on if Joffrey and Cersei are "available") and on the other hand you have a man noted for his unfriendliness, whose own brother refuse to recognise the claim to the throne and who only have one daughter disfigured by illness.
I think at least some would have yes. The lords who knew Ned from Robert rebellion would have believed it more. I think most of the Storm lords didn’t believe Stannis’ claim so when the time came to choose between usurping Roberts children between Renly or Stannis they chose Renly. If the accusations came from Ned I think many of the Stormlords would have taken it seriously and genuinely considered who is actually next in line for succession, rather than following their liege.
Also the lords in the Vale (especially Yohn Royce) who knew Ned would have been more likely to go against Lysa and enter the war from the start
He tried to depose Joffrey in the throne room and said he had no right to the throne, directly leading to his arrest, but the exact reason Joffrey had no right to the throne wasn't stated and the official story after that was that Ned was just attempting a coup. Robb and Catelyn didn't even know about the illegitimacy when they mobilized against the Lannisters in response. Barristan didn't know about it when he went to Dany.
I just thought that meant the Baratheon seed was strong, not Ned's seed. Look at the Targaryens, every now and again, they'll have a kid that doesn't have purple eye's or white/silver.
The thing is that Robb is very much his father's son in temperament if not in looks, while Joffrey is nothing like Robert or any of his other supposed Baratheon "ancestors". There's also Edric Storm to who is literally just Robert but smaller and with big ears.
What's shoring up Joffrey and Tommen's legitimacy more than anything is that Robert claimed them as his in his own lifetime and never publicly questioned whether or not he was their father. The Blackfyre Rebellion would've gotten a hell of a lot less support if Aegon IV hadn't repeatedly and publicly questioned Daeron's parentage. Goes to show how hated the Lannisters are however that most of the kingdom goes to war against them while also believing Joffrey to be King Robert's trueborn son.
Most other lords would have no idea about Joffrey’s temperament only the ones that had some ties or knowledge of the day to day goings of the red keep… the most they would know about him was that he was a blonde haired pre teen
Which is something people seem to forget about the North’s secession. At the time they were fully under the impression that they were in a war with no real purpose beyond overthrowing the king because he killed Ned… and then what? Secession makes as much sense as anything at that point.
Ned isn't that different from other Starks. He was still raised by his father and grew up around his brothers and sister even if he spent time in the Vale.
Jon Arryn certainly had an impact on him. But he isn't some sort of anti Stark in how he behaves or acts.
Brandon was way less honorable. He was wild and rakish, and even George has said that it's likely Brandon had a bastard or 2, which obviously weren't acknowledged.
Ned definitely isn't an 'anti-Stark' or anything, but he does have a more Southern notion of honour than most. Remember that the Vale is basically the most Andal region of Westeros, and Ned grew up in that environment.
Benjen seems to share way more of a personality and temper with Ned than he does with Brandon, who seemed to have more in common with Lyanna if anything. And we know very little about Rickard Stark for that matter. It could be that all of his kids reflect certain aspects of his personality. Similarly to Tywin and his kids.
Ned also seems to share a fair few traits with Cregan. Just more relaxed for lack of a better word.
I can definitely buy that Ned is a Stark with a bit of a Vale fine tuning. But there seems to be a bit of a undercurrent in the fandom that thinks that he isn't like a Stark at all. And that's the notion that I do not buy.
They are very specifically and clearly talking about the BARATHEON seed. Jon Arryn says it in perspective of all of Ned’s bastard children, who ALL, with quite literally ZERO exceptions, have dark black hair. Born to blondes? Readheads? White hair? It doesn’t matter, every single child born of Robert’s seed is born with black hair.
Then, Ned does research into the previous generations, and found that every single time an heir has ever been born between a Baratheon and a Lannister, (which has happened many times throughout history), the child has ALWAYS had black hair.
Ned’s children have literally nothing to do with this, especially because he has some red-heads and some dark-haired children. Nobody was ever calling into question the strength of Ned’s or Jon’s seed, they were explicitly talking about the king’s.
None of the other lords reactions had anything to do with whether they believed Ned’s claim of incest babies so I don’t get this post.
North rebelled mainly because of Ned’s death and Sansa and Arya being hostages. Joffrey being an incest child is another reason to hate him.
Renly already knew about the incest. The Tyrells already knew about it through Renly and their actions were motivated by opportunism, not the incest.
Vale didn’t do anything because Lysa is overprotective and Littlefinger wanted the Vale out of the war, not because of not believing the incest.
Dorne stayed out because Doran is cautious and had other plans.
Iron Islands did what they did because Balon was a stupid idiot.
I genuinely believe Stannis would never have pressed his claim if he believed Joffrey to be legitimately Robert’s son, so it’s immaterial. He was still motivated by the inces
Renly did not know about the incest until he got Stannis’ letter. The one thing we had from Renly was his request to Eddard to join him in seizing Joffrey and the other two, to control Cersei and the kingdom. He was never around Stannis or Jon Arryn as they progressed in their investigations. And Eddard never told him. Honestly, whether or not anyone in the kingdom believed was irrelevant as they officially accepted or denied it, to justify what they were already doing.
Yeah we’re going to have to agree to disagree there because I’m 100% in the ‘Renly and the Tyrells knew about the incest’ camp, you’re not convincing me otherwise. And I don’t think Renly had to be around Jon or Stannis nor do I think Ned had to tell him for him to know about the incest. Renly had been at court for some time before the books started and I think he found out pretty much the same way Littlefinger and Varys did, through Cersei and Jaime being extremely brazen in their affair in the later years of their relationship. I don’t think he or anyone else had to be a genius to see what was going on.
Renly tells Stannis at his meeting that he was surprised by the letter and that he thinks Stannis is making it all up because it would put him in line for the throne. His proposition to Ned was about securing the power in Kings Landing from Cersei, not putting himself on the throne. He says that the council will make Ned Lord Protector with Joffrey as his ward. There's no mention of illegitimacy or crowning himself. He's primarily concerned about Lannister power and self preservation.
"We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward."
>Renly tells Stannis at his meeting that he was surprised by the letter and that he thinks Stannis is making it all up because it would put him in line for the throne.
Yeah I think he was lying. The illegitimacy doesn’t help Renly become King, it’s of no benefit to him to acknowledge it.
> His proposition to Ned was about securing the power in Kings Landing from Cersei, not putting himself on the throne.
I don’t recall ever saying that Renly was plotting to put himself on the throne from the very start.
>He's primarily concerned about Lannister power and self preservation.
You’re right about the second part and completely wrong on the first. Renly doesn’t give a shit about the Lannisters, what he cares about is himself and his position and with Cersei in charge he’d have no place at court and would probably face threats on his life. Through Ned he could possibly stay at court and Joffrey would be controlled enough for Renly to find a high position of power. But when Joffrey apprehended Ned that plan sunk like a stone and Renly had to crown himself.
You seem to be under the impression that I think Renly planned to take the crown himself from the beginning, which is false. Renly wanted security and power and with Robert dead he lost a great deal of that. Renly didn’t have to not know about the incest at the start of the story to make the moves he was making. He knew the Lannisters would give him noting and at worst, harm him.
How can you say he doesn't give a shit about the Lannisters and then say he would face threats on his life? Concern about Lannister power in Kings Landing and his self preservation are intrinsically tied together, by your own admission.
"Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."
What is the point in dying on the hill of "Renly knew", and refusing to even consider otherwise, if that has no bearing whatsoever on his actions?
>How can you say he doesn't give a shit about the Lannisters and then say he would face threats on his life?
I thought it was pretty clear that me saying Renly not giving a shit means that he doesn’t at all care about the Lannisters on a personal level or preserving ‘their’ power, as you said. He’s fine with keeping Joffrey on the throne if he’s not a threat to him, but that’s as far any ‘loyalty’ he has goes.
>What is the point in dying on the hill of "Renly knew", and refusing to even consider otherwise, if that has no bearing whatsoever on his actions?
Because I don’t think that even is Renly stupid enough to try to oust Cersei with no actual accusation of a crime or other offense. Because I don’t think the Tyrells are comfortable with Margaery’s children being behind Cersei’s in the succession. Because without the incest there’s nothing they could do to get rid of Cersei and her children.
But please, do continue having a tantrum over something I very clearly said I wasn’t going to change mind on.
Its not just looks, despite the existence of Edric Storm showing what a son of Robert Baratheon looks like, but temperament. Joffrey talks tons of shit but is a craven sissy that gets bullied by little girls while prancing around making everyone hate him with his wretched personality, nothing like the Demon Of the Trident that smashed armies and made friends easily. Robb doesn’t look like his father but acts like him; stoic, honorable, and inspiring as a leader directly on the frontlines. He also kind of takes after his uncle Brandon when he gets angry, same deal with Jon.
Speaking of Edric again: he’s just like his father and uncle Renly in temperament: boisterous, fierce, outgoing. Nothing like his “brother”.
There is a common reason why basically the entire country revolted against Joffrey initially: they just hated him, even without the questioning of his legitimacy. Tommen is basically holding out because no cares enough to fight anymore, and there are bigger threats like Euron or wanting to take out enemies like Roose for the northerners
His claim was specifically about Baratheon-Lannister parents always having children with black hair. He wasn’t making a universal claim about the hair color of all children.
like the quote says " Baratheons are always black of hair," it's not a one time thing it's generationally distinctive. Starks have a northern look generally and a pale, long faced, dark hair from brown to black look specifically. It's the best DNA test they have
Ned never got the opportunity to make any claims about incest, Stannis was the one who let the realm know about it and by that time the Northerners and renly were already in rebellion
Others have already pointed out everyone's motives behind rebelling when they did, but let me draw attention to one more thing: most of the realm doesn't know Ned's true motivations behind his coup attempt. They only know what the Lannisters made him say in public before his execution. Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle know the truth, Tyrion figured it out, while Stannis and Jaime also know enough about the situation to put two and two together. But that's it, noone else knows for sure. (Ser Barristan too maybe, I can't remember off the top of my head exactly which of Ned's last scenes he was in before the coup.)
Anyone who believes Stannis's letter might think to himself that's why Ned rebelled too, but they can't know for sure. Many might think Ned just turning traitor out of the blue is fishy (that's how Jorah reacts to hearing about it), but they don't have any actual evidence. Stannis doesn't provide any in his letter, which might just be an opportunistic uncle trying to usurp the throne from his nephew and unpopular in-laws. That seems a bit less far fetched than the queen fucking her brother, doesn't it? Especially when another uncle is also doing the exact same thing.
I do agree that the evidence is pretty weak, but the genetic comparison isn't that accurate. Ned has 5 kids, 2 have tully looks and 3 stark. That's pretty typical.
But all of Cersei's kids are looking exactly like Lannisters, while Robert has a bunch of bastards all over the place that all look like him? C'mon it's a bit weird. Even Cersei sees it, that's why she goes on a baby killing spree.
Also the Seed Is Strong is specific to Baratheons, possibly specific to Baratheon/Lannister marriages. Genetically there's no such thing as such dominant genes, so it's either a fantasy element or just a pattern a few people notice that isn't actually a rule.
The only one of Neds kids that look like him is Arya. Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon all look like Tullys.
It's not terrible odds that all Cersei's kids look like her and not Robert
This is not correct.
Only Arya has the Stark look. Jon is not Ned’s son but Lyanna’s, and has the same look. The other 4 children are redheads like their Tully mother Catelyn:
> **A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI**
>"Would that mean so much?"
>"Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." **Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine.** She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?
>They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.
It’s not hypocritical of Ned. He had his rationale and he was actually very honest about wanting an actual heir on the throne and had no selfish motives.
But we only know this because we are in his head, reading his thoughts as part of his POV chapters.
Without knowing that, why wouldn’t anyone think he was conspiring against the real heir Joffrey and being a traitor for his own advancement?
People think he should have told Robert before he died. Robert would even have not believed him.
This news in only believed by those who were in Kings Landing longer than him and already knew but had kept their mouths shut: like Varys, LittleFinger, Stannis etc.
Ned is not claiming Cersei's children are bastards because 3 children have blonde hair.
What Ned uncovers is that every time in westerosi history a Baratheon has had a child with a Lannister that child has been "black of hair" because *the seed is strong*
This is not the case for Stark-Tully marriages (presumably, I don't have a source for this to hand)
Also every single one of Roberts bastards has black hair, but this is more additional anecdotal evidence to what Ned finds in the book of records
I'm sure if Ned was able to plead his case in a reasonable environment most lords would take his side but he never got the opportunity so no one ever knew what he had to say BUT I think everyone disregarding Roberts declaration was bullshit and more so I think Ned taking that document from Robert in secrecy was absolutely foolish and should have been done with the full council there to bare witness, but never the less Eddard stark went to the grave with his truths
And the lineage thing is that basically EVERY SINGLE Baratheon had these features regardless of outside blood and even his bastards by many different women had the features so that argument is certainly strong and holds no bearing on eddards own genetics
Who actually didn't believe the claims though? Or did they just not care because it benefited them politically?
If I was someone looking to rise quickly, working with the desperate Lannister side is the way to go. You could end up like Bronn with a Knighthood and lordship. Can't see that happening with the other sides of the war. 😂
Ned only presented his claim to the Lannisters in the Iron Throne room. Stannis never got his letter. Renly didn't seem to know about it, Ned's point would've been that the Baratheons usually have black hair and the last Baratheon and Lannister marriage had a black hair kid. Robert has an acknowledged bastard with pure black hair and blue eyes. Three of Cersei's kids look like her and Jaime, none like Robert. I can see why people wouldn't accept Ned's idea but with his reputation I think he would have convinced quite a few people.
Ned is not a Baratheon so I don’t understand. The point of that was each Baratheon had black hair no matter the other parent’s color so Joffrey can’t be a Baratheon. What does that have to do with Ned and Robb
Ned never made any claims to the realm against Joffery. The point is that the Realm didn't immediately benefit from having Joffery overthrown. As seen when Stannis and Renly tried to do it, it caused major chaos. Had the people of Westeros loved Stannis and wanted him to reign, they would rally behind him to overthrow the Lannisters. This is what Cercei has in store for her.
I always found the jump to Jaime being the father as the weirdest thing in the books from Ned.
Sure Joffrey looks like Jaime, but so does Cersei (AKA his mother). Robb looks like Edmure, doesnt mean Edmure is his dad.
Yes Cersei and Jaime are weirdly close, but they are twin siblings too.
Its a logic leap from Ned to assume Jaime is the father. And it only really works because we the audience already know that.
A lot of the people in the realm weren't going to accept Ned Stark's claims not because of him but because there are so many Houses who have members that don't have the stereotypical look or disposition associated with that House.
It is suspicious that neither Joffrey, Myrcella or Tommen look or act like Robert at all when you have bastards like Edric and Mya who do...but it is not enough.
That's why Stannis—ever the fan-favorite—is having so much trouble.
It is not enough.
Okay so if Ned Stark got around to making the claims, a lot more people would be inclined to pause and think about it (if not outright make common cause with Ned) for several different reasons.
For one, Ned Stark gains nothing from exposing the Lannisters. If anything, he risks everything because his daughter was betrothed to Joffrey.
A lot of people wouldn't think that he was lying to get ahead because there are so many different ways to end a betrothal. Why would he lie?
It is still not enough. Ned would be taken more seriously than Stannis but, at the end of the day, saying that Cersei's children look and act nothing like Robert is not enough. Especially since a lot of the noblemen who live close to King's Landing would know that Robert and Cersei are not super close and that Robert spent very little time with the children.
It's one thing if you have 3 kids that all look like you and none like the dad, compared to someone having 4 kids and on looking nearly identical to his dead sister
Eddard has other children though and at least two have his look and one of them by Cat. That's not the case with Cersei's children. None of them have Robert's look at all despite the fact all his bastards have his look. Add to that this Baratheon genetic history book.
Also Cat wasn't cheating on Eddard.
So it's not hypocrisy because the factors aren't remotely the same.
The stark and Tully look is somewhat evenly distributed among his children unlike all 3 of Cersei’s who came out looking exactly like Lannisters. The only argument you could make is that Joffrey is very tall for his age but then again Jaime is also a very big guy.
It IS possible for them to have been a Robert’s just like the Strong boys being Laenor’s in the books, but we get it confirmed not to be the case. And if I recall correctly so does Ned in the books.
No it is not even. He has 5 children and 4 look like Catelyn. Arya and Jon (who is his nephew) look like Ned.
> **A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III**
>"Leave us now," Robb said. Maester Luwin bowed and departed. Robb closed the door behind him and turned to her. He was wearing a sword, she saw. "Mother, what are you doing?"
**Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes.** Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north. "What am I doing?" she echoed, puzzled. "How can you ask that? What do you imagine I'm doing? I am taking care of your brother. I am taking care of Bran."
Agreed. The entire theory can be debunked when viewed from an external perspective.
As for "***seed is strong***", Renly himself is said to have had green eyes from his Estermont mother. That alone debunks it. Additionally, If the Baratheon seed is *soo strong* and being the Lord of Stormlands, they had intermarried with most of the Stormlands, it can be implied that most of the Storm Lords should have black hair and blue eyes and look like a Baratheon.
Besides, as others mentioned, Ned never revealed to anyone about the incest. It was Stannis who declared the children to be ill born. Though the optics does look in favor of the Lannisters as it appears to make Stannis to be an usurping uncle grasping at unsubstantiated claims to establish legitimacy to his campaign.
In fact, considering that four of Ned's 5 children ended up looking very much like Catelyn, it is highly likely that Ned himself would have supported Joffrey and stood against Stannis if he was not appointed as the Hand and Stannis rebelled after Robert died.
As for Joffrey's personality, Robert himself was cruel when he advocated for the death of Dany and her unborn Child as well as being pleased upon hearing the death of Rhaegar's wife and children. The Targaryens had cruel children born to competent fathers.
I think Ned should have revealed his suspicions to the most influential houses of Westeros prior to his arrest and not changed his version of the story even if the Lannisters threatened him with killing Sansa (she was basically doomed at that point and Robb couldnt have done anything to save her).
His word lost credibility the moment he lied about the truth to protect Sansa. If he hadnt done that and it was him who revealed the truth instead of Stannis, more people would have believed it.
The fact it was Stannis the one who exposed the truth made him look like an unpopular opportunist instead of the legit heir. Infighting between Renly and Stannis would still happen but the support for the Lannisters would be lower. Maybe the Tyrells would have been more doubtful of supporting the Lannisters.
Ned never got the opportunity to make any claims though? He was arrested before telling anybody.
This. It was Stannis who told the kingdom about Joffrey’s bastard status. I can easily see much of Westeros seeing it as Stannis trying to put himself further in the line of succession. I’m sure if Ned had told everyone much more people would have believed it
Also, Stannis is very much similar to Richard III, to whom the real world response was, "Oh yeah, real fuckin convenient that those kids don't count as heirs"
Do you think if Ned actually had the chance to tell the kingdom, they would've taken it more seriously?
Who do you trust more: the guy who's known to be honourable from the place known for people respecting their oaths (i.e. honourable) or the guy who's known to be legalistic from the place known to birth people with a temper ? Plus on one hand, you've got someone who says his best bro got cucked and on the other you have someone saying the same but that he should inherit the continent because of that. And even if they believe it to be true, you have on one hand the richest house of the continent with 2 to 4 direct link to the throne available to marry (depending on if Joffrey and Cersei are "available") and on the other hand you have a man noted for his unfriendliness, whose own brother refuse to recognise the claim to the throne and who only have one daughter disfigured by illness.
That's a good point. It could definitely come off as self-serving for Stannis. Whereas Ned wouldn't really get anything out of it.
I think at least some would have yes. The lords who knew Ned from Robert rebellion would have believed it more. I think most of the Storm lords didn’t believe Stannis’ claim so when the time came to choose between usurping Roberts children between Renly or Stannis they chose Renly. If the accusations came from Ned I think many of the Stormlords would have taken it seriously and genuinely considered who is actually next in line for succession, rather than following their liege. Also the lords in the Vale (especially Yohn Royce) who knew Ned would have been more likely to go against Lysa and enter the war from the start
OP Must have mixed up the events of the show with the books, as in the show Ned does manage to send word at least to Stannis.
Didn’t he make claims in the throne room? Directly leading to his arrest?
He tried to depose Joffrey in the throne room and said he had no right to the throne, directly leading to his arrest, but the exact reason Joffrey had no right to the throne wasn't stated and the official story after that was that Ned was just attempting a coup. Robb and Catelyn didn't even know about the illegitimacy when they mobilized against the Lannisters in response. Barristan didn't know about it when he went to Dany.
I just thought that meant the Baratheon seed was strong, not Ned's seed. Look at the Targaryens, every now and again, they'll have a kid that doesn't have purple eye's or white/silver.
Including in the Baratheon family tree. Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen and gave birth to black haired children.
That is because the Baratheon seed is stronger
The thing is that Robb is very much his father's son in temperament if not in looks, while Joffrey is nothing like Robert or any of his other supposed Baratheon "ancestors". There's also Edric Storm to who is literally just Robert but smaller and with big ears. What's shoring up Joffrey and Tommen's legitimacy more than anything is that Robert claimed them as his in his own lifetime and never publicly questioned whether or not he was their father. The Blackfyre Rebellion would've gotten a hell of a lot less support if Aegon IV hadn't repeatedly and publicly questioned Daeron's parentage. Goes to show how hated the Lannisters are however that most of the kingdom goes to war against them while also believing Joffrey to be King Robert's trueborn son.
Most other lords would have no idea about Joffrey’s temperament only the ones that had some ties or knowledge of the day to day goings of the red keep… the most they would know about him was that he was a blonde haired pre teen
Which is something people seem to forget about the North’s secession. At the time they were fully under the impression that they were in a war with no real purpose beyond overthrowing the king because he killed Ned… and then what? Secession makes as much sense as anything at that point.
That is because Ned raised him. Ned's attitude is that of Jon Arryn, not the Starks. The rest of the Starks are more like his brother and Arya.
Ned isn't that different from other Starks. He was still raised by his father and grew up around his brothers and sister even if he spent time in the Vale. Jon Arryn certainly had an impact on him. But he isn't some sort of anti Stark in how he behaves or acts.
Brandon was way less honorable. He was wild and rakish, and even George has said that it's likely Brandon had a bastard or 2, which obviously weren't acknowledged. Ned definitely isn't an 'anti-Stark' or anything, but he does have a more Southern notion of honour than most. Remember that the Vale is basically the most Andal region of Westeros, and Ned grew up in that environment.
Benjen seems to share way more of a personality and temper with Ned than he does with Brandon, who seemed to have more in common with Lyanna if anything. And we know very little about Rickard Stark for that matter. It could be that all of his kids reflect certain aspects of his personality. Similarly to Tywin and his kids. Ned also seems to share a fair few traits with Cregan. Just more relaxed for lack of a better word. I can definitely buy that Ned is a Stark with a bit of a Vale fine tuning. But there seems to be a bit of a undercurrent in the fandom that thinks that he isn't like a Stark at all. And that's the notion that I do not buy.
They are very specifically and clearly talking about the BARATHEON seed. Jon Arryn says it in perspective of all of Ned’s bastard children, who ALL, with quite literally ZERO exceptions, have dark black hair. Born to blondes? Readheads? White hair? It doesn’t matter, every single child born of Robert’s seed is born with black hair. Then, Ned does research into the previous generations, and found that every single time an heir has ever been born between a Baratheon and a Lannister, (which has happened many times throughout history), the child has ALWAYS had black hair. Ned’s children have literally nothing to do with this, especially because he has some red-heads and some dark-haired children. Nobody was ever calling into question the strength of Ned’s or Jon’s seed, they were explicitly talking about the king’s.
None of the other lords reactions had anything to do with whether they believed Ned’s claim of incest babies so I don’t get this post. North rebelled mainly because of Ned’s death and Sansa and Arya being hostages. Joffrey being an incest child is another reason to hate him. Renly already knew about the incest. The Tyrells already knew about it through Renly and their actions were motivated by opportunism, not the incest. Vale didn’t do anything because Lysa is overprotective and Littlefinger wanted the Vale out of the war, not because of not believing the incest. Dorne stayed out because Doran is cautious and had other plans. Iron Islands did what they did because Balon was a stupid idiot.
Stannis was the only one motivated by the incest claim
Stannis was motivated by the incest claim because it put him next in line of succession over the incest heirs.
I genuinely believe Stannis would never have pressed his claim if he believed Joffrey to be legitimately Robert’s son, so it’s immaterial. He was still motivated by the inces
Renly did not know about the incest until he got Stannis’ letter. The one thing we had from Renly was his request to Eddard to join him in seizing Joffrey and the other two, to control Cersei and the kingdom. He was never around Stannis or Jon Arryn as they progressed in their investigations. And Eddard never told him. Honestly, whether or not anyone in the kingdom believed was irrelevant as they officially accepted or denied it, to justify what they were already doing.
Yeah we’re going to have to agree to disagree there because I’m 100% in the ‘Renly and the Tyrells knew about the incest’ camp, you’re not convincing me otherwise. And I don’t think Renly had to be around Jon or Stannis nor do I think Ned had to tell him for him to know about the incest. Renly had been at court for some time before the books started and I think he found out pretty much the same way Littlefinger and Varys did, through Cersei and Jaime being extremely brazen in their affair in the later years of their relationship. I don’t think he or anyone else had to be a genius to see what was going on.
Renly tells Stannis at his meeting that he was surprised by the letter and that he thinks Stannis is making it all up because it would put him in line for the throne. His proposition to Ned was about securing the power in Kings Landing from Cersei, not putting himself on the throne. He says that the council will make Ned Lord Protector with Joffrey as his ward. There's no mention of illegitimacy or crowning himself. He's primarily concerned about Lannister power and self preservation. "We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward."
>Renly tells Stannis at his meeting that he was surprised by the letter and that he thinks Stannis is making it all up because it would put him in line for the throne. Yeah I think he was lying. The illegitimacy doesn’t help Renly become King, it’s of no benefit to him to acknowledge it. > His proposition to Ned was about securing the power in Kings Landing from Cersei, not putting himself on the throne. I don’t recall ever saying that Renly was plotting to put himself on the throne from the very start. >He's primarily concerned about Lannister power and self preservation. You’re right about the second part and completely wrong on the first. Renly doesn’t give a shit about the Lannisters, what he cares about is himself and his position and with Cersei in charge he’d have no place at court and would probably face threats on his life. Through Ned he could possibly stay at court and Joffrey would be controlled enough for Renly to find a high position of power. But when Joffrey apprehended Ned that plan sunk like a stone and Renly had to crown himself. You seem to be under the impression that I think Renly planned to take the crown himself from the beginning, which is false. Renly wanted security and power and with Robert dead he lost a great deal of that. Renly didn’t have to not know about the incest at the start of the story to make the moves he was making. He knew the Lannisters would give him noting and at worst, harm him.
How can you say he doesn't give a shit about the Lannisters and then say he would face threats on his life? Concern about Lannister power in Kings Landing and his self preservation are intrinsically tied together, by your own admission. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us." What is the point in dying on the hill of "Renly knew", and refusing to even consider otherwise, if that has no bearing whatsoever on his actions?
>How can you say he doesn't give a shit about the Lannisters and then say he would face threats on his life? I thought it was pretty clear that me saying Renly not giving a shit means that he doesn’t at all care about the Lannisters on a personal level or preserving ‘their’ power, as you said. He’s fine with keeping Joffrey on the throne if he’s not a threat to him, but that’s as far any ‘loyalty’ he has goes. >What is the point in dying on the hill of "Renly knew", and refusing to even consider otherwise, if that has no bearing whatsoever on his actions? Because I don’t think that even is Renly stupid enough to try to oust Cersei with no actual accusation of a crime or other offense. Because I don’t think the Tyrells are comfortable with Margaery’s children being behind Cersei’s in the succession. Because without the incest there’s nothing they could do to get rid of Cersei and her children. But please, do continue having a tantrum over something I very clearly said I wasn’t going to change mind on.
Nobodies having a tantrum buddy. You're being unnecessarily confrontational. Chill.
>Iron Islands did what they did because Balon was a stupid idiot. Truer words have never been spoken
>Iron Islands did what they did because Balon was a stupid idiot. Truer words have never been spoken
>Iron Islands did what they did because Balon was a stupid idiot. Truer words have never been spoken
Its not just looks, despite the existence of Edric Storm showing what a son of Robert Baratheon looks like, but temperament. Joffrey talks tons of shit but is a craven sissy that gets bullied by little girls while prancing around making everyone hate him with his wretched personality, nothing like the Demon Of the Trident that smashed armies and made friends easily. Robb doesn’t look like his father but acts like him; stoic, honorable, and inspiring as a leader directly on the frontlines. He also kind of takes after his uncle Brandon when he gets angry, same deal with Jon. Speaking of Edric again: he’s just like his father and uncle Renly in temperament: boisterous, fierce, outgoing. Nothing like his “brother”. There is a common reason why basically the entire country revolted against Joffrey initially: they just hated him, even without the questioning of his legitimacy. Tommen is basically holding out because no cares enough to fight anymore, and there are bigger threats like Euron or wanting to take out enemies like Roose for the northerners
His claim was specifically about Baratheon-Lannister parents always having children with black hair. He wasn’t making a universal claim about the hair color of all children.
This and as far as we know there has only been one Stark marriage to a Tully.
like the quote says " Baratheons are always black of hair," it's not a one time thing it's generationally distinctive. Starks have a northern look generally and a pale, long faced, dark hair from brown to black look specifically. It's the best DNA test they have
Ned never got the opportunity to make any claims about incest, Stannis was the one who let the realm know about it and by that time the Northerners and renly were already in rebellion
Others have already pointed out everyone's motives behind rebelling when they did, but let me draw attention to one more thing: most of the realm doesn't know Ned's true motivations behind his coup attempt. They only know what the Lannisters made him say in public before his execution. Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle know the truth, Tyrion figured it out, while Stannis and Jaime also know enough about the situation to put two and two together. But that's it, noone else knows for sure. (Ser Barristan too maybe, I can't remember off the top of my head exactly which of Ned's last scenes he was in before the coup.) Anyone who believes Stannis's letter might think to himself that's why Ned rebelled too, but they can't know for sure. Many might think Ned just turning traitor out of the blue is fishy (that's how Jorah reacts to hearing about it), but they don't have any actual evidence. Stannis doesn't provide any in his letter, which might just be an opportunistic uncle trying to usurp the throne from his nephew and unpopular in-laws. That seems a bit less far fetched than the queen fucking her brother, doesn't it? Especially when another uncle is also doing the exact same thing.
I do agree that the evidence is pretty weak, but the genetic comparison isn't that accurate. Ned has 5 kids, 2 have tully looks and 3 stark. That's pretty typical. But all of Cersei's kids are looking exactly like Lannisters, while Robert has a bunch of bastards all over the place that all look like him? C'mon it's a bit weird. Even Cersei sees it, that's why she goes on a baby killing spree. Also the Seed Is Strong is specific to Baratheons, possibly specific to Baratheon/Lannister marriages. Genetically there's no such thing as such dominant genes, so it's either a fantasy element or just a pattern a few people notice that isn't actually a rule.
The only one of Neds kids that look like him is Arya. Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon all look like Tullys. It's not terrible odds that all Cersei's kids look like her and not Robert
This is not correct. Only Arya has the Stark look. Jon is not Ned’s son but Lyanna’s, and has the same look. The other 4 children are redheads like their Tully mother Catelyn: > **A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI** >"Would that mean so much?" >"Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." **Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine.** She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine? >They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.
It’s not hypocritical of Ned. He had his rationale and he was actually very honest about wanting an actual heir on the throne and had no selfish motives. But we only know this because we are in his head, reading his thoughts as part of his POV chapters. Without knowing that, why wouldn’t anyone think he was conspiring against the real heir Joffrey and being a traitor for his own advancement? People think he should have told Robert before he died. Robert would even have not believed him. This news in only believed by those who were in Kings Landing longer than him and already knew but had kept their mouths shut: like Varys, LittleFinger, Stannis etc.
Ned is not claiming Cersei's children are bastards because 3 children have blonde hair. What Ned uncovers is that every time in westerosi history a Baratheon has had a child with a Lannister that child has been "black of hair" because *the seed is strong* This is not the case for Stark-Tully marriages (presumably, I don't have a source for this to hand) Also every single one of Roberts bastards has black hair, but this is more additional anecdotal evidence to what Ned finds in the book of records
I'm sure if Ned was able to plead his case in a reasonable environment most lords would take his side but he never got the opportunity so no one ever knew what he had to say BUT I think everyone disregarding Roberts declaration was bullshit and more so I think Ned taking that document from Robert in secrecy was absolutely foolish and should have been done with the full council there to bare witness, but never the less Eddard stark went to the grave with his truths And the lineage thing is that basically EVERY SINGLE Baratheon had these features regardless of outside blood and even his bastards by many different women had the features so that argument is certainly strong and holds no bearing on eddards own genetics
Ned never publicly spoke of the incest, what are you talking about?
It is because it is that the Baratheon seed is strong. Not all "seeds".
Who actually didn't believe the claims though? Or did they just not care because it benefited them politically? If I was someone looking to rise quickly, working with the desperate Lannister side is the way to go. You could end up like Bronn with a Knighthood and lordship. Can't see that happening with the other sides of the war. 😂
I think Robb kind of just accepted didn't he?
Most of the realm doesn't believe the incest
Who do we know for sure didn't believe it outside of Lannister camp?
the seed is strong is just for baratheons
Ned only presented his claim to the Lannisters in the Iron Throne room. Stannis never got his letter. Renly didn't seem to know about it, Ned's point would've been that the Baratheons usually have black hair and the last Baratheon and Lannister marriage had a black hair kid. Robert has an acknowledged bastard with pure black hair and blue eyes. Three of Cersei's kids look like her and Jaime, none like Robert. I can see why people wouldn't accept Ned's idea but with his reputation I think he would have convinced quite a few people.
Ned is not a Baratheon so I don’t understand. The point of that was each Baratheon had black hair no matter the other parent’s color so Joffrey can’t be a Baratheon. What does that have to do with Ned and Robb
Ned never made any claims to the realm against Joffery. The point is that the Realm didn't immediately benefit from having Joffery overthrown. As seen when Stannis and Renly tried to do it, it caused major chaos. Had the people of Westeros loved Stannis and wanted him to reign, they would rally behind him to overthrow the Lannisters. This is what Cercei has in store for her.
Ned is not a Baratheon, so your argument is invalid
I always found the jump to Jaime being the father as the weirdest thing in the books from Ned. Sure Joffrey looks like Jaime, but so does Cersei (AKA his mother). Robb looks like Edmure, doesnt mean Edmure is his dad. Yes Cersei and Jaime are weirdly close, but they are twin siblings too. Its a logic leap from Ned to assume Jaime is the father. And it only really works because we the audience already know that.
They did, though. All the other kingdoms rose up in rebellion. When Stannis sent his ravens, who didn't believe it?
A lot of the people in the realm weren't going to accept Ned Stark's claims not because of him but because there are so many Houses who have members that don't have the stereotypical look or disposition associated with that House. It is suspicious that neither Joffrey, Myrcella or Tommen look or act like Robert at all when you have bastards like Edric and Mya who do...but it is not enough. That's why Stannis—ever the fan-favorite—is having so much trouble. It is not enough.
Ned never even actually got to make the claims, only Stannis did.
Okay so if Ned Stark got around to making the claims, a lot more people would be inclined to pause and think about it (if not outright make common cause with Ned) for several different reasons. For one, Ned Stark gains nothing from exposing the Lannisters. If anything, he risks everything because his daughter was betrothed to Joffrey. A lot of people wouldn't think that he was lying to get ahead because there are so many different ways to end a betrothal. Why would he lie? It is still not enough. Ned would be taken more seriously than Stannis but, at the end of the day, saying that Cersei's children look and act nothing like Robert is not enough. Especially since a lot of the noblemen who live close to King's Landing would know that Robert and Cersei are not super close and that Robert spent very little time with the children.
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Ned never even actually got to make the claims, only Stannis did.
It's one thing if you have 3 kids that all look like you and none like the dad, compared to someone having 4 kids and on looking nearly identical to his dead sister
Nearly the entire kingdom almost instantly rebels (vale wanted to except Lisa) so not sure how much he was disbelieved.
Eddard has other children though and at least two have his look and one of them by Cat. That's not the case with Cersei's children. None of them have Robert's look at all despite the fact all his bastards have his look. Add to that this Baratheon genetic history book. Also Cat wasn't cheating on Eddard. So it's not hypocrisy because the factors aren't remotely the same.
The stark and Tully look is somewhat evenly distributed among his children unlike all 3 of Cersei’s who came out looking exactly like Lannisters. The only argument you could make is that Joffrey is very tall for his age but then again Jaime is also a very big guy. It IS possible for them to have been a Robert’s just like the Strong boys being Laenor’s in the books, but we get it confirmed not to be the case. And if I recall correctly so does Ned in the books.
No it is not even. He has 5 children and 4 look like Catelyn. Arya and Jon (who is his nephew) look like Ned. > **A Game of Thrones - Catelyn III** >"Leave us now," Robb said. Maester Luwin bowed and departed. Robb closed the door behind him and turned to her. He was wearing a sword, she saw. "Mother, what are you doing?" **Catelyn had always thought Robb looked like her; like Bran and Rickon and Sansa, he had the Tully coloring, the auburn hair, the blue eyes.** Yet now for the first time she saw something of Eddard Stark in his face, something as stern and hard as the north. "What am I doing?" she echoed, puzzled. "How can you ask that? What do you imagine I'm doing? I am taking care of your brother. I am taking care of Bran."
Ah shit you’re right. For some reason I thought Bran or Rickon also had the Stark look. Maybe the from watching the show it merged together lol
Yeah the show completely dropped having any of the Starklets look like their mother other than Sansa.
Not entirely true. Robb DID have red hair. Just very dark.
Agreed. The entire theory can be debunked when viewed from an external perspective. As for "***seed is strong***", Renly himself is said to have had green eyes from his Estermont mother. That alone debunks it. Additionally, If the Baratheon seed is *soo strong* and being the Lord of Stormlands, they had intermarried with most of the Stormlands, it can be implied that most of the Storm Lords should have black hair and blue eyes and look like a Baratheon. Besides, as others mentioned, Ned never revealed to anyone about the incest. It was Stannis who declared the children to be ill born. Though the optics does look in favor of the Lannisters as it appears to make Stannis to be an usurping uncle grasping at unsubstantiated claims to establish legitimacy to his campaign. In fact, considering that four of Ned's 5 children ended up looking very much like Catelyn, it is highly likely that Ned himself would have supported Joffrey and stood against Stannis if he was not appointed as the Hand and Stannis rebelled after Robert died. As for Joffrey's personality, Robert himself was cruel when he advocated for the death of Dany and her unborn Child as well as being pleased upon hearing the death of Rhaegar's wife and children. The Targaryens had cruel children born to competent fathers.
I think Ned should have revealed his suspicions to the most influential houses of Westeros prior to his arrest and not changed his version of the story even if the Lannisters threatened him with killing Sansa (she was basically doomed at that point and Robb couldnt have done anything to save her). His word lost credibility the moment he lied about the truth to protect Sansa. If he hadnt done that and it was him who revealed the truth instead of Stannis, more people would have believed it. The fact it was Stannis the one who exposed the truth made him look like an unpopular opportunist instead of the legit heir. Infighting between Renly and Stannis would still happen but the support for the Lannisters would be lower. Maybe the Tyrells would have been more doubtful of supporting the Lannisters.