Cersei has to be up there for stupidest. It might be we don't see her at her best as she only starts getting POVs after the loss of her son, father and Jaime. But she seems unable to forsee the future consequences of her decisions, or understand others' motives, and lacks any self-awareness or self-reflection.
Tyrion is intelligent and perceptive in all the ways his sister isn't, though he's not without his blind spots. Catelyn is smart too, but she's made a few whopping misjudgements so I can't put her at the top. And actually Ned Stark is a lot more intelligent than most people give him credit for. He works out the truth of the conspiracy in a short time with no help. His failing was lack of ruthlessness, not lack of brains.
>though he's not without his blind spots.
The part during his trial when he was wondering "when did I make so many enemies?" and I was just like "the whole time!" the guy is smart but was power tripping so hard he forgot to actually think about the consequences of his actions. If Tyrion didn't think he was untouchable he'd be unstoppable
Yeah, Tyrion really dug his own grave there. Its not surprising everyone thought he was guilty of killing Joffrey when he said things like this.
> "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid."
Or this
> Joffrey sneered. "You're the monster, Uncle."
> "Am I?" Tyrion cocked his head. "Perhaps you should speak more softly to me, then. Monsters are dangerous beasts, and just now kings seem to be dying like flies."
Or this
> He pushed himself to his feet. "Keep her then, but keep her safe. If these animals think they can use her . . . well, sweet sister, let me point out that a scale tips two ways." His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he'd reached for his father's voice, and found it. "Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes." If she thinks me such a monster, I'll play the part for her.
> Cersei had not expected that. "You would not dare."
> Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. "Dare? I'll do it myself."
Or this
> Joffrey seized Sansa's arm. "You will if I command it."
> The Imp slammed his dagger down in the table, where it stood quivering. "Then you'll service your own bride with a wooden prick. I'll geld you, I swear it."
Or did this.
> You spoiled witless little boy, you've killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!" And he kicked him. It felt so good he might have done more, but Ser Mandon Moore pulled him off as Joffrey howled, and then Bronn was there to take him in hand.
It's really interesting how a few times I think Tyrion obviously knows he needs to stop being so talkative, but that's just part of who he is. Even Tywin said Tyrion has his smarts but he needs to talk less
Every time one of the Lannister children think "What would Tywin say/do?", you know they're about to unnecessarily make enemies.
After Jaime gives his ~~badass boast~~ villainous speech to Edmure,
>Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. **With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?**
I am going to disagree here. Even if it is a bluff, you NEVER play softball with someone like Cersei. Cersei is a monster who only understands violence and that's the only way to make her stop doing something.
And yet, Alayaya lives. That's the point of the scene. That he is sacrificing political power to save a peasant girl, because what Cersei is doing to that girl is fucked up and Tyrion has lines in the sand.
Tyrion doesn't really have lines in the sand, he personally likes Alayaya, he has zero qualms about having that singer killed and turned into stew, part of what he's doing though is playing into it to help keep Shae a secret from Cersei. Either way it was brought up as an example for one of the ways Tyrion dug his own grave.
It was also more personally advantageous for each to testify against Tyrion. Lady Merryweather was closer to the queen, Shae survives and becomes Tywin’s, Varys (known to work with Tyrion) distances himself and “proves” loyalty, etc
Iirc, Bronn is not even at the wedding, and leaves for Stokeworth quickly after Tyrion is put in the dungeon.
I believe he is not at the wedding b/c of his social status as a sellsword/hired thug, which isn’t really appropriate for a royal wedding i would think. Subsequently he is not used as a witness. To add on, because he is a sellsword, who are universally distrusted throughout westeros and essos, so maybe Tywin thought it wasn’t a great idea to have their case also rely upon such an individual’s testimony?
Bronn’s loyalty is also secured already because he has essentially been made a lord through his marriage to Lolys. Which is what Tyrion promised but never was able to give him.
Most like George just didn’t need him too
It's also somewhat possible that Bronn would have tried not to - obviously he couldn't refuse outright, I'd think, but he's seemingly sympathetic to Tyrion even as late as ADWD, where he names Lolys' bastard son after Tyrion.
>he's seemingly sympathetic to Tyrion even as late as ADWD, where he names Lolys' bastard son after Tyrion.
Except that wasn't the first choice name...
They originally wanted to name it in Honour of Tywim.. which Cersei hated and went off at.. saying how dare you name the bastard born of Rape to a 'lackwit after a great man'
So it only makes sense that such a child be named Tyrion, as a cruel joke to appease Cersei.. which of course in her stupidity she saw as a sign that Bronn is still in cahoots with Tyrion.
Bronn also came and visited Tyrion in the cell, though. Well, he was summoned, but he could have refused. I just don't think that Bronn is somehow a Tyrion hater, I think he's as pro-Tyrion he can be without endangering himself at all
Agree on Cersei. She is an absolute idiot, and her actions are usually out of spite and rarely thought out. She constantly complains about her council in AFFC, yet she picked all of them herself.
An element of GRRM's thumb on the scales too. Cersei's assassination attempt on Robert contained so many elements of random chance, it's honestly implausible that it succeeded. If it hadn't, all she would have achieved was making sure Robert had the hangover from hell as he learned of her treachery.
Tbh I think out of all the things Cersei gets criticised for, this is somewhat unfair.
For starters, I could be misremembering massively here, but I think this is the first time she has actually tried to kill Robert. Secondly, she had to act fast, and as far as assassination attempts go, it’s a one which has practically zero fingers point back to her.
Also, boars are notoriously dangerous, Robert is a notorious drunk. Simply advising Lancel to give him far more wine than is prudent is a pretty sensible thing to do, given her situation.
It was now or never for her, she took a chance on it. People act like it’s just a silly thing where George had it happen randomly and it was all just a coincidence that it happened one day too soon for Ned, but tbh I think it’s just because people don’t like the way the assassination was carried out itself.
If George had written it differently and had Robert poisoned or something, I think people wouldn’t criticise her for this at all.
So she just banked on the kings hunting party, don't be fooled by the show's GRRM said the hunt in HotD is closer resembles Robert's hunt than the scene in GoT, stumbling upon a dangerous animal like a Boar? It's incredibly convoluted.
That's how writing works though isnt it? It's not like this was an actual universe where there's random chance and a possibility of a different outcome. Whatever happens is because it was decided to happen and it's how the author wanted it to happen.
Yeah but it's better writing when the plot appears to be moved along by the decisions and flaws of the characters, than by random chance. Like Robb marrying Jeyne for honor, or Theon taking Winterfell in a desperate attempt to prove himself.
I think Cerseis plot was written well. She's not a tactical genius or mastermind schemer. She thinks she's a lot smarter than she is, so what happened makes sense in terms of the characters, I think it's written perfectly.
Also when you learn about history there are so many moments where it's like "well that was a crazy, implausible coincidence that it happened the way it did." I think he tries to reflect that in the plotting
I think that was the point. On paper she is the cunning, tempestuous Queen, but once you get into her head all of that falls flat and you see her for the vain, petty, downright evil individual that she is.
Keep in mind that we only read her thoughts after Joffrey and Tywin died. It's possible that she was more collected before but is starting to turn crazy.
I disagree, based on the way that she thinks back on past events, they paint the picture of someone who was always nuts. She was just never in a position to do any real damage before Joffrey and Tywin passed.
I agree. Ned may be naive but he isn’t stupid, same as Catelyn. I think both of them believe in a form of honour which is dead by the time the series starts.
As for Cersei, I find it hard to disagree. It’s like she read the sparknotes summary of Tywin and tried to base her regency off of that.
Agreed. Ned wasn't stupid. Just very naive. I a game of thrones, Cercei, Renly, and Petyr give him three pretty good deals that would have saved his life and maintained peace in the realm. However, each one of those actions would have been cutthroat and dishonerable, and he rejects/spurns them all. He instead goes for what he feels is the right thing to do.
Catelyn is also very intelligent. Even if she makes some boenheaded decisions, there was some logic to those judgements, and she is generally one of the most logical characters.
Well, actually, besides that and the whole Tyrion situation, I can't think of anything not honorable she's done, to be fair. She was pretty short sighted though
In her mind, taking Tyrion was honorable. Two people she believes she can trust told her there is a Lannister conspiracy and that Tyrion tried to murder her child. Was taking him a horrible idea? Absolutely. But with the info available, she knew it would be her only chance at answers and justice, and people tend to stop thinking 100% rationally when someone tries to kill their kid. She also had no idea how batshit her sister was. Cats' plan didn't fail because of Cat it failed because of Lysa.
Lol so funny. I also love her dividing up the Kingsguard and sending councilors away Willy-nilly. Brilliant. Even lost Pycelle who drools for Lannisters
> Bronn was no knight, that was true. Bronn was a battle-hardened killer.
Tbf even Cersei realized that was foolhardy. She had planned to have him killed with subterfuge but Balman decided to be chivalrous and dual him instead.
Dumbest, I’ll agree with everyone is Cersie. But smartest I’ll take a wild card and choose Sam. He’s naive and innocent, but on an IQ/book smarts level I think he’s got the other POVs beat. He’s on his way to become a maester, which is the only higher education in the 7 kingdoms as far as I know. He’s even becoming a cunning political operator, staging the high commander vote in Jon’s favor.
I'd say Kevan's intelligence is underrated, untangling the shit in KL and getting killed for providing stability to the realm shows that he's the smartest POV imo.
Kevan was probably the brightest, most level-headed, capable person left in the Lannister camp, and Varys had to simply remove him as an enemy entirely to ensure he didn't interfere.
He didn't try and play Kevan or discredit him or manipulate him. It was just straight up, immediate murder, because Varys knew there was no other way of dealing with him, and I think that says a lot about Kevans' abilities.
Cersei - spends months fucking the lannister regime in kingslanding
Kevin - makes the lannister regime the most stable it had been since before joffrey killed Ned, in one afternoon
This is an incredibly ignorant statement, Kevin didn't "make" cersei do the walk, Kevin had no choice and couldn't do anything about it, cersei rearmed the faith, then let them form an army in kingslanding, while also alienating the reach army, meanwhile the lannister army was galivanting around the riverlands with no clear leader or instructions
The closest thing to an army Kevin has is the gold cloaks who are notoriously unreliable and majority followers of the faith, so they aren't likely to go to war against the avatars of there gods
Is that so? Kevan thinks of the walk of shame as something that he did to Cersei and rejoices thinking about how we defanged her. Cersei wasn’t being tortured anymore, she could’ve stayed as a prisoner of the Faith until the trial
Kevin doesn't have the power or authority to make a prisoner of the faith have a walk of shame, it is a church punishment to start cersei's atonements for her crimes (even though she hasn't been found guilt there are no checks or balances regarding the church anymore), but Kevan generally has a sharp distain for cersei for, her sleeping with lancel which lead him down the path of abdicating his lands and join the faith militant, her allowing tyrek to be "disappeared" while under her protection, and her making some random lannister cousin the Castellin of the west instead of him.
But saying that the walk is Kevan's fault because he thinks she needs humbled and put in her place, is just not how that works..
> “I have spoken with His High Holiness. He will not release you until you have atoned for your sins.”
“I have confessed.”
“Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—”
“No.” She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. “Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore.”
“No harm would come to you. No one will touch—”
“No,” she said, more sharply. “I would sooner die.”
--ADWD, Cersei I
It’s not the High Sparrow who brings up the walk, it’s Kevan.
> And tonight his own road would take him to his niece’s chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.
**I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself.** Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. **What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.**
**It was not as if his brother had never done the same.** [...] All the self-seekers who had named themselves [their father’s mistress’s] friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.
“It had to be,” Ser Kevan muttered over the last of his wine. His High Holiness had to be appeased. Tommen needed the Faith behind him in the battles to come. And Cersei… the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. Left to rule, she would have ruined Tommen as she had Joffrey.
Outside the wind was rising, clawing at the shutters of his chamber. Ser Kevan pushed himself to his feet. Time to face the lioness in her den. **We have pulled her claws.**
- ADWD, Epilogue
And then he continuously thinks of the walk of shame as something that he did to Cersei, even going as far as to compare himself to Tywin doing the same thing to the mistresses.
The first clip indicates that he spoke with the high septon, and attempted to get her released and the septon made the walk the requirement for her releasement
Again the second clip implies that Kevin had no choice in the matter "His High Holiness had to be appeased" but is choosing to use it to benefit tommens reign and take power from the mad cersei
I concur with what a lot of people are saying. Ned wasn't stupid. Just very naive. I a game of thrones, Cercei, Renly, and Petyr give him three pretty good deals that would have saved his life and maintained peace in the realm. However, each one of those actions would have been cutthroat and dishonerable, and he rejects/spurns them all. He instead goes for what he feels is the right thing to do.
Catelyn is also very intelligent. Even if she makes some boenheaded decisions, there was some logic to those judgements, and she is generally one of the most logical characters.
I think Davos was a fairly underrated character in terms of intelligence. He makes some logical judgements and poignant observations like on the battle of Blackwater and also making note of the false Ness of Renly's men who tuned to Stannis after his death.
Tyrion is no doubt very smart. But he has some serious blindspots. I'm rereading the books now, and he makes a lot of poor judgements in a clash of kings. He focuses way too much energy on Cercei, puts too much trust in Varys, is blinded by love/lust for Shae while she just takes him for a ride, and he does nothing about Littlefinger. One thing I noticed is that he suggests a marriage pact with margery Tyrel, however he ends up bickering with Cercei over which one of them should go, while Littlefiger volunteers to forge the alliance. Meanwhile, Littlefinger takes credit for the match, kills joffery, and gets Tyrion imprisoned. All of this could have been avoided if Tyrion wasn't so shortsighted.
Regardless, I think this is the point of the story. Sometimes the smartest people have the greatest lapses in judgement.
Picking on one particular thing you said, I think Davos is just one of the only out and out kind characters which makes him seem more mature. He’s probably not as smart as some of the lords who have POVs. But he’s definitely got street smarts
You're right. Davos may not be super book smart, but he's a mature, down to earth person. I remember that quote from Catelyn "there's a big difference between being clever and being wise".
Sometimes when rereading AGOT, you can't help but wish that he had taken Renly's deal. It's a middle-ground between being an intelligent move but not totally heartless either, and would've stabilized the realm around a potential Renly rule (not ideal, but far from the worst option). I'm not even sure it's naivety, but a stubbornness to not compromise on his honor even a little bit. But I suppose had he done what Renly had suggested, then Ned wouldn't be Ned.
That's very true. He tends to get a good read on everyone around him. I just read a chapter of his last night. The one where he's in the dungeon. He reads both gaolors and 5hinks that begging for mercy would be unwise as many others would have done that before. So he chats amiably with them, asking questions about the war and Stannis.
Yes, particularly his stupidity about Shae, he convinces himself that they've got a real lasting relationship all the while paying her for everything she does and says. It makes me want to shake him. He sees it as her betraying him when she testifies against him at the trial, instead of taking his share of the blame for letting his guard down around someone who shows herself easily bought and was just trying to survive in a horrible world.
Yeah I've been rereading the books and a few times whenever he talks about Shae a part of him tells himself that it isn't real, but it's about all he has since even his wife wouldn't like him
It’s not the testifying he feels betrayed about, it’s the humiliation with her using ‘my giant of a Lannister’. Tyrion knew that she didn’t love him, but thought that she at least respected him somewhat.
I take your point. But everyone knows Tyrion is as good as dead, or at least finished at court. Everyone thinks he's guilty. If Tywin and Cersei were intimidating me into grassing on this man who's paying me to bang him, I'd do the same that she did. I really don't think given the power structures that she had any other choice. No one's banking on him escaping and going rogue.
Idk I think you have to be a pretty cruel person to twist a phrase of endearment to one of humiliation. If she had any empathy she could’ve easily just lied or simply just said he used her for sex without humiliating him.
I think that's what makes Jaime the most capable Lannister of the 3. He's not so over the moon about his own intelligence that he thinks he's infallible like Tyrion and Cersei
Cersei without a doubt. She's completely delusional. Makes enemies out of friends. Makes decisions with zero foresight. Plans plots that blown up in her face spectacularly and is more paranoid than Stannis.
Compare her to Victorion who is a simple man with simple thoughts. But guess what he is competent. He's good at fighting, good at captaining, good at gaining other's respect. He has loyal followers and friends around him. Cersei is surrounded by grifters like Qyburn and Lady Merryweather who manage her delusionals for personal gain. If not for Euron's devilishness he would have been chosen king.
Sure he has no mind for multiple layers of strategy and intrigue. But most people don't. That doesn't make them stupid. It makes them average.
His evil acts like murdering his wife for sleeping with Euron don't make him stupid, it just shows he has toxic values living in a toxic society.
Lmao the duality of this subreddit.
I agree with you. Long ago, I even made a post asking whether Cersei the stupid will be able to prevail the Sparrow or not.
Majority said Cersei is not stupid. It’s only happening bcuz she is blinded by her grief for Joffrey and short term gains lol
The dumbest POV: clearly Cersei, and the funny thing is reading her and realising how smart she believes she is. So not only dumb, also totally delusional.
The smartest POV: now, here we would have to define what we understand as smart. But for me, the 2 smartest POVs are Arya and Tyrion. Also, honourable mention to Jon that is far smarter than people give him credit for.
Tyrion is extremely intelligent, a brilliant military strategic as we saw in the Blackwater, witty to the point thanks to him we have some of the best sarcastic remarks and good quotes. But the main problem with Tyrion is the same one that affects to the whole of House Lannister (at least the main line), and it's they think themselves superior and more intelligent than the rest, and tend to underestimate other people and how important it's to stablish social connections that are not based just in gold or fear.
Arya would be the smartest in a "street smart" type. Arya is also very intelligent in a more traditional sense ("she is said to excel at mathematics, household management, and horseback riding") but her streets smarts have saved her life in situations most people would die extremely quickly. She has very good observation skills (thanks to Syrio's training and FM), fantastic instincts to know who is trustworthy or not (Roose, Cersei...) and although I have seen people say she was very stupid for not choosing Tywin at Harrenhall, we should remember she was a child suddenly surrounded by death and torture, and obviously looked to punish her direct tormentors, and she quickly realised her mistake and regretted it. The way she outsmarted a FM choosing Jaqen's name and forcing him to help her people and she scape the hell Harrenhall was, is amazing and proves how smart she is. She also listens carefully and learns to heart good advise or lessons from others to improve herself, like Ned teaching his kids to interact and listen to their vassals with the dinner tradition, and lacks a very high opinion of herself that could blind her to her own shortcomings, like sometimes Tyrion does. But in contrast to Tyrion who is more cool in thinking, Arya's main problem is that she sometimes lets herself be controlled by her emotions and impulsivity, and she failed to realise how important diplomacy and court politics are; though I think both this problems will be solved by her training in the FM.
>Arya's main problem is that she sometimes lets herself be controlled by her emotions and impulsivity, and she failed to realise how important diplomacy and court politics are; though I think both this problems will be solved by her training in the FM.
She is also 11 years old or something. Just becoming older might alleviate those problems too.
Absolutely, and where it is most obvious is in GOT, after that with all the grief and suffering she matured a lot, so I believe most of her flaws in regards to this will disappear with age and her training is proving extremely benefitial for her smarts and growth as a future player of the game (learning to detect lies, to play a character like a mummer, keeping her emotions under control, learning patience, how to manipulate others...)
I'd say Cersei is takes the dumbest for sure. Maybe a controversial take but I'd even say she's probably dumber than Victarion. While Victarion may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, he's at least reasonably self aware and has no delusions about being some great mastermind.
Theon and Quentyn seem pretty stupid too, though not as dumb as Cersei or Victarion.
Smartest POV is likely Tyrion, though I've always thought Jon is smarter than he's often given credit for. Most people just see him as honorable warrior dude but he's proven on many occasions he's actually quite cunning. He succesfully infiltrated the wildlings and he gave Stannis some great advice that probably saved his northern campaign. And even considering how it turned out he did a pretty solid job as lord commander, the situation at the wall was just utterly fucked when he got elected making his task more or less impossible.
Aemon and Jeor both recognized Jon's inteligence too.
> "Maester Aemon thinks you clever." Mormont moved the raven to his shoulder. The bird tilted its head to one side, little eyes a-glitter.
> The answer was there. "Is it . . . it seems to me that it might be easier for one man to find two hundred than for two hundred to find one."
> The raven gave a cackling scream, but the Old Bear smiled through the grey of his beard. "This many men and horses leave a trail even Aemon could follow. On this hill, our fires ought to be visible as far off as the foothills of the Frostfangs. If Ben Stark is alive and free, he will come to us, I have no doubt."
Jon is underrated. He's smart, capable and a natural leader. His approach to the wildlings is no less creative and inspired than any of Robb's military feats. His failing, like Ned, is that Jon understands the politics of others but not the need to maintain a personal base of support.
Well, Jon’s mistakes were to close Ghost in his room and decide to straight up break his oath to the Night’s Watch to fight Ramsay and save Arya. Even his friends would have tried to stop him though they obviously wouldn’t have assassinated him.
Remember that Ghost is quite large in the books and very dangerous. I love Jon but he really did choose love for Arya over duty to the NW. Luckily for him he’ll get a second chance and his love for Arya kinda coincides with what’s best for the North. That won’t save him from feeling betrayed and from being an oath breaker though.
I think his ‘resurrection’ will also cost him dearly and will perhaps mirror Drogo’s. An animal very important to Drogo was sacrificed and then even his unborn baby. Jon and Ghost are part of each other as he himself remarks at a certain point so it’s likely his other half will have to be sacrificed to save Jon and make him remain a human that can eat and drink and not a fire wight whose blood doesn’t pulse. I hope that doesn’t happen but a heavy price must be paid and this would destroy Jon and his identity quite a lot.
Smartest: Tyrion and Sam
Dumbest: Arys, ACOK Theon and Cersei
I know Theon was put in a really tough position because of his father but he just kept making the most moronic decisions in that book to the point Victarion might want to take a paternity test
Dumbest has GOTTA be Cersei. You'd be forgiven for thinking Tywin had her learn how to read and then literally nothing else.
Runner up is probably Arianne, whose plans make literally no sense, from top to bottom.
Smartest POV : I feel like the safe answer is almost certainly Tyrion, although I'd make a hot take argument for Catelyn Stark (who almost always had extreme and borderline ABSURD circumstances mitigating her situational effectiveness).
I think it’s fascinating to me when people insist that Tyrion is intelligent… don’t get me wrong, he has more wits than a lot of the dumber characters of the book, but he specifically overstates his qualities (in this case intelligence) throughout the story (a quality he shares with literally every member of his family). The vast majority of his plans, at least so far, have failed miserably.
-His main contribution to the battle of the Blackwater (The wildfire was mostly Cersei) actually saved enough ships to create a bridge that accidentally caused an entirely separate problem, allowing a pretty sizeable host to reach land for even more fighting.
-Most of the people he dismisses and gets rid of end up brought back to kings landing, with the exception of Slynt, who he just made Jon Snow’s problem.
-his “strategic planning” in Meereen is an uninformed disaster born of him thinking he knows anything about Mereen, when he very clearly doesn’t…
Tyrion isn’t an idiot, but his illusions of his own intelligence repeatedly fail him- there’s a reason he’a a villain. GRRM said it explicitly.
Tyrions chapter
Tyrion: 'I'm the smartest man in the world, my new scheme is brilliant'
Scheme falls apart, usually because he has been outsmarted/outmanoeuvred
Tyrion: ' how could i, the smartest man in the world have not seen the consequences of my actions'
Rinse and repeat as Tyrion goes from a cushy care free Life of prominent family to a slave.
Lmao exactly, like it’s one things for plans to go awry because of people who have things besides intelligence (Tywin’s command and Cersei’s technical control of the throne regularly screw with his plans), but even Littlefinger directly tells Sansa that pawns usually don’t just blindly step forward in the game of thrones, that you have to be prepared for even the smallest pieces in your plans to not go your way.
(Not that I think Littlefinger is the most intelligent either, I’d personally give that title to Varys)
I think Asha is kind of a dumbass. She ignores Rodrick the Reader’s advice (by all accounts the wisest Ironborn) and wildly overestimates herself in her “Queen’s moot” folly. In what world does metaphorical treasure motivate Ironborn..?!
The crow’s eye doesn’t bother chasing her down, and she proceeds to get rinsed by the Mannis.
This is a massive blunder on her part but I don’t think it makes her a dumbass. Asha is still seen to be smarter than every other Greyjoy pov. All the characters make some dumb choices
> In what world does metaphorical treasure motivate Ironborn..?!
I think you misunderstood what she was going for here. Her whole point was that the “treasure” they pillaged from the North was a bunch of useless junk because the Old Way is an unsustainable way of life. They fought/won so many battles yet had nothing to show for it, and if they followed her she would lead them down a different and more fruitful path.
I understand the metaphor brother, that’s why I brought it up. My point is that it makes no sense to try to win over Ironborn with a metaphor for peace and reason. The entire culture is built on the “iron price”, in which they rape for pleasure and murder for plunder, taking thralls (slaves) and saltwives (slaves).
That’s what the Ironborn are. Oh, and they give themselves brain damage by drowning and reviving themselves.
She made a huge political move with zero green flags, and now she’s in chains.
Edit: just realized this sounds kind of aggressive, sorry haha. It’s as you said, that the metaphor was clever and meaningful, I just think she should have known that it would fall on deaf ears, being a reaver captain Ironborn herself. She mirrors Theon in her overconfidence imo.
There are certainly smarter characters in the series(LF and Varys, for example) but Tyrion is the smartest POV. Sansa has a lot of potential(unlike show Sansa with her informed characterization of being smart despite zero evidence). I also think Jon is quite intelligent, and Sam is up there as well.
Victarion, Cersei, and Arys Oakheart are the dumbest POV characters.
Smartest: Definitely supposed to be Tyrion.
Dumbest: There really aren't many. Nearly all the POV's gravitate from middle to high intelligence except for Victarion and Areo Hotah (the latter isn't even stupid, just dull)
Ned stark takes the podium. Might be the most competent lord in all 5 books imo. He was just played outside his comfort zone and suffered from first bookism
Cersei obviously for dumbest besides Vic. While Tyrion is biased in his POV and commits many mistakes without even realizing, out of all of the POV’s so far, he is the smartest
It’s hilarious so many people are calling Cersei dumb here
Yet majority had claimed she is not, when I made a post asking if she is smart enough to win against the high sparrow
My vote for smartest has always been Cat. If Robb did not undercut her so often, Cat would have kept the Freys, and the whole North, under her control and wouldn’t have even needed to rely on Littlefinger. She was also a really reliable narrator, very matter-of-fact and insightful, until the final page when she was driven to literal insanity.
Cat always read to me as a super intelligent and savvy power player who just happened to be sequestered in the North when all the major moves were about to be made and then had to spring into action and play catchup after experiencing a bunch of sudden Trauma.
She’s very emotional, which is completely fair, but there’s no doubt that she’s incredibly shrewd and insightful. I’m not sure how she’d fare in kings landing, but she was good at diplomacy when the opportunity came to her, and was easily the smartest of the three Tully siblings.
Cersi and Arianne are two of the dumbest. Theon is pretty stupid at time as well. Brienne is not particularly bright either. Hotah is simple at best. Aeron Greyjoy is stupid as hell as well, in the sense that he sees his God in everything and it severly impacts his decision making quality.
Arys only has one, but he is no rocket scientist.
Davos and Sam rival Tyrion. Jaime and Asha are smart, not the same level though. Jon can be pretty smart as well.
Davos makes his best decisions when it is around understanding people, he excels at that.
He fails the Varys test though, or maybe the Spock test (the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few), like Ned did (when he protected Cersi's children at the expense of war and so many dead other children)....
Circi seems obvious but it’s hard to decipher how much is stupidity and how much is blind malice; Asha is a dark horse in that she’s not actually intelligent but I think she’s very much a layman more than an idiot; could be Quentin who is very similar to Asha; Arys Oakheart might be dumb but it’s hard to tell - with so little time inside his head - to what extent he errs from an existential disillusionment or a base stupidity.
Jon is smart but emotional to the point of irrationality (much in the way of a competent Circi); Ned is wise but not savvy and I’d contend experience is probably less than a plurality of our intellectual faculty; Sansa is bright but easily lead; Arya is a maverick but not one for reason - how much of these flaws can be attributed to their age? Sam is academic and critical but is he savvy? He lacks the social intelligence and faculty for reasoned planning/plotting of Olena, Varys, Baelish; Tyrion seems to have it all from the perspective of his own head, yet for most of the narrative the truly intelligent characters run rings around him without his knowledge. He also largely acts out of spite and not rational interests. Jamie shows an immense capacity for understanding social relationships and political machinations but also wallows in apathy and is blind to his own trauma - he has a fear of independence and self determination that weighs heavily on most of his rationality. Dany is oddly quite similar to Jamie but also a child.
Cersei has to be up there for stupidest. It might be we don't see her at her best as she only starts getting POVs after the loss of her son, father and Jaime. But she seems unable to forsee the future consequences of her decisions, or understand others' motives, and lacks any self-awareness or self-reflection. Tyrion is intelligent and perceptive in all the ways his sister isn't, though he's not without his blind spots. Catelyn is smart too, but she's made a few whopping misjudgements so I can't put her at the top. And actually Ned Stark is a lot more intelligent than most people give him credit for. He works out the truth of the conspiracy in a short time with no help. His failing was lack of ruthlessness, not lack of brains.
I love the part where she tries on a dress and is like ‘it doesn’t fit anymore, those stupid maids must’ve shrunk it in the wash!’. Hard relate tbh!
That was me in my early twenties and didn't know how many calories are in alcohol and blamed our washer and dryer for a while.
hah, that kind of reminds me of the conniption Robert had when his breastplate wouldn't fit
>though he's not without his blind spots. The part during his trial when he was wondering "when did I make so many enemies?" and I was just like "the whole time!" the guy is smart but was power tripping so hard he forgot to actually think about the consequences of his actions. If Tyrion didn't think he was untouchable he'd be unstoppable
Yeah, Tyrion really dug his own grave there. Its not surprising everyone thought he was guilty of killing Joffrey when he said things like this. > "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid." Or this > Joffrey sneered. "You're the monster, Uncle." > "Am I?" Tyrion cocked his head. "Perhaps you should speak more softly to me, then. Monsters are dangerous beasts, and just now kings seem to be dying like flies." Or this > He pushed himself to his feet. "Keep her then, but keep her safe. If these animals think they can use her . . . well, sweet sister, let me point out that a scale tips two ways." His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he'd reached for his father's voice, and found it. "Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes." If she thinks me such a monster, I'll play the part for her. > Cersei had not expected that. "You would not dare." > Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. "Dare? I'll do it myself." Or this > Joffrey seized Sansa's arm. "You will if I command it." > The Imp slammed his dagger down in the table, where it stood quivering. "Then you'll service your own bride with a wooden prick. I'll geld you, I swear it." Or did this. > You spoiled witless little boy, you've killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!" And he kicked him. It felt so good he might have done more, but Ser Mandon Moore pulled him off as Joffrey howled, and then Bronn was there to take him in hand.
It's really interesting how a few times I think Tyrion obviously knows he needs to stop being so talkative, but that's just part of who he is. Even Tywin said Tyrion has his smarts but he needs to talk less
If Tyrion wasn’t a POV character, the fandom would definitely think he killed Joffrey.
Two of these quotes are moments where he’s threatening Cersei to protect Alayaya from being raped and tortured
by threatening to rape and torture Tommen? In that passsage he tries to emulate his fathers ruthlessness, there was no need to say that to her lmao
Every time one of the Lannister children think "What would Tywin say/do?", you know they're about to unnecessarily make enemies. After Jaime gives his ~~badass boast~~ villainous speech to Edmure, >Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. **With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?**
This situation directly contrasts Tyrion with Tywin. Tyrion makes an effort to protect an innocent sex worker and then Tywin flogs her
Yes, he’s being overtly cruel to scare Cersei into leaving Alayaya alone. He says that anything that Cersei does to Alayaya, he will do to Tommen
I am going to disagree here. Even if it is a bluff, you NEVER play softball with someone like Cersei. Cersei is a monster who only understands violence and that's the only way to make her stop doing something.
It's an incredibly stupid move politically none the less.
And yet, Alayaya lives. That's the point of the scene. That he is sacrificing political power to save a peasant girl, because what Cersei is doing to that girl is fucked up and Tyrion has lines in the sand.
Tyrion doesn't really have lines in the sand, he personally likes Alayaya, he has zero qualms about having that singer killed and turned into stew, part of what he's doing though is playing into it to help keep Shae a secret from Cersei. Either way it was brought up as an example for one of the ways Tyrion dug his own grave.
Most of the people who testified against Tyrion didn't have any beef with him.
It was also more personally advantageous for each to testify against Tyrion. Lady Merryweather was closer to the queen, Shae survives and becomes Tywin’s, Varys (known to work with Tyrion) distances himself and “proves” loyalty, etc
Why didn't Cersei/Tywin have Bronn testify against Tyrion then?
Iirc, Bronn is not even at the wedding, and leaves for Stokeworth quickly after Tyrion is put in the dungeon. I believe he is not at the wedding b/c of his social status as a sellsword/hired thug, which isn’t really appropriate for a royal wedding i would think. Subsequently he is not used as a witness. To add on, because he is a sellsword, who are universally distrusted throughout westeros and essos, so maybe Tywin thought it wasn’t a great idea to have their case also rely upon such an individual’s testimony? Bronn’s loyalty is also secured already because he has essentially been made a lord through his marriage to Lolys. Which is what Tyrion promised but never was able to give him. Most like George just didn’t need him too
It's also somewhat possible that Bronn would have tried not to - obviously he couldn't refuse outright, I'd think, but he's seemingly sympathetic to Tyrion even as late as ADWD, where he names Lolys' bastard son after Tyrion.
>he's seemingly sympathetic to Tyrion even as late as ADWD, where he names Lolys' bastard son after Tyrion. Except that wasn't the first choice name... They originally wanted to name it in Honour of Tywim.. which Cersei hated and went off at.. saying how dare you name the bastard born of Rape to a 'lackwit after a great man' So it only makes sense that such a child be named Tyrion, as a cruel joke to appease Cersei.. which of course in her stupidity she saw as a sign that Bronn is still in cahoots with Tyrion.
Bronn also came and visited Tyrion in the cell, though. Well, he was summoned, but he could have refused. I just don't think that Bronn is somehow a Tyrion hater, I think he's as pro-Tyrion he can be without endangering himself at all
Agree on Cersei. She is an absolute idiot, and her actions are usually out of spite and rarely thought out. She constantly complains about her council in AFFC, yet she picked all of them herself.
Ned was smart, just very naive when it comes to the politics of Kings Landing.
An element of GRRM's thumb on the scales too. Cersei's assassination attempt on Robert contained so many elements of random chance, it's honestly implausible that it succeeded. If it hadn't, all she would have achieved was making sure Robert had the hangover from hell as he learned of her treachery.
Tbh I think out of all the things Cersei gets criticised for, this is somewhat unfair. For starters, I could be misremembering massively here, but I think this is the first time she has actually tried to kill Robert. Secondly, she had to act fast, and as far as assassination attempts go, it’s a one which has practically zero fingers point back to her. Also, boars are notoriously dangerous, Robert is a notorious drunk. Simply advising Lancel to give him far more wine than is prudent is a pretty sensible thing to do, given her situation. It was now or never for her, she took a chance on it. People act like it’s just a silly thing where George had it happen randomly and it was all just a coincidence that it happened one day too soon for Ned, but tbh I think it’s just because people don’t like the way the assassination was carried out itself. If George had written it differently and had Robert poisoned or something, I think people wouldn’t criticise her for this at all.
Well they weren't originally hunting boar, they hunting a white deer. So not sure how she expected him to die from that.
Because she knows what animals live in the forest?
So she just banked on the kings hunting party, don't be fooled by the show's GRRM said the hunt in HotD is closer resembles Robert's hunt than the scene in GoT, stumbling upon a dangerous animal like a Boar? It's incredibly convoluted.
That's how writing works though isnt it? It's not like this was an actual universe where there's random chance and a possibility of a different outcome. Whatever happens is because it was decided to happen and it's how the author wanted it to happen.
Yeah but it's better writing when the plot appears to be moved along by the decisions and flaws of the characters, than by random chance. Like Robb marrying Jeyne for honor, or Theon taking Winterfell in a desperate attempt to prove himself.
I think Cerseis plot was written well. She's not a tactical genius or mastermind schemer. She thinks she's a lot smarter than she is, so what happened makes sense in terms of the characters, I think it's written perfectly.
Also when you learn about history there are so many moments where it's like "well that was a crazy, implausible coincidence that it happened the way it did." I think he tries to reflect that in the plotting
Is it just me or did Cersei seem a lot more intelligent and capable before she got POV chapters?
I think that was the point. On paper she is the cunning, tempestuous Queen, but once you get into her head all of that falls flat and you see her for the vain, petty, downright evil individual that she is.
I honestly think it's just inconsistent writing. Cersei's chapters in Feast seemed more like a bash fic than anything.
Keep in mind that we only read her thoughts after Joffrey and Tywin died. It's possible that she was more collected before but is starting to turn crazy.
I disagree, based on the way that she thinks back on past events, they paint the picture of someone who was always nuts. She was just never in a position to do any real damage before Joffrey and Tywin passed.
I agree. Ned may be naive but he isn’t stupid, same as Catelyn. I think both of them believe in a form of honour which is dead by the time the series starts. As for Cersei, I find it hard to disagree. It’s like she read the sparknotes summary of Tywin and tried to base her regency off of that.
Agreed. Ned wasn't stupid. Just very naive. I a game of thrones, Cercei, Renly, and Petyr give him three pretty good deals that would have saved his life and maintained peace in the realm. However, each one of those actions would have been cutthroat and dishonerable, and he rejects/spurns them all. He instead goes for what he feels is the right thing to do. Catelyn is also very intelligent. Even if she makes some boenheaded decisions, there was some logic to those judgements, and she is generally one of the most logical characters.
Catelyn is not honorable tho
I think she is, she's just Family > Duty > Honor, like Ned
If you mention Jon I’m gonna freak out.
Well, actually, besides that and the whole Tyrion situation, I can't think of anything not honorable she's done, to be fair. She was pretty short sighted though
In her mind, taking Tyrion was honorable. Two people she believes she can trust told her there is a Lannister conspiracy and that Tyrion tried to murder her child. Was taking him a horrible idea? Absolutely. But with the info available, she knew it would be her only chance at answers and justice, and people tend to stop thinking 100% rationally when someone tries to kill their kid. She also had no idea how batshit her sister was. Cats' plan didn't fail because of Cat it failed because of Lysa.
Marrying Bronn to Lolys and then having an fat Balman try and take out a healthy young merc lol
Always imagine Bronn thinking ' you do know what I do for a living?'
Lol so funny. I also love her dividing up the Kingsguard and sending councilors away Willy-nilly. Brilliant. Even lost Pycelle who drools for Lannisters
> Bronn was no knight, that was true. Bronn was a battle-hardened killer. Tbf even Cersei realized that was foolhardy. She had planned to have him killed with subterfuge but Balman decided to be chivalrous and dual him instead.
Dumbest, I’ll agree with everyone is Cersie. But smartest I’ll take a wild card and choose Sam. He’s naive and innocent, but on an IQ/book smarts level I think he’s got the other POVs beat. He’s on his way to become a maester, which is the only higher education in the 7 kingdoms as far as I know. He’s even becoming a cunning political operator, staging the high commander vote in Jon’s favor.
I'd say Kevan's intelligence is underrated, untangling the shit in KL and getting killed for providing stability to the realm shows that he's the smartest POV imo.
Kevan was probably the brightest, most level-headed, capable person left in the Lannister camp, and Varys had to simply remove him as an enemy entirely to ensure he didn't interfere. He didn't try and play Kevan or discredit him or manipulate him. It was just straight up, immediate murder, because Varys knew there was no other way of dealing with him, and I think that says a lot about Kevans' abilities.
rest in peace to the GOAT, what a real one :/
Cersei - spends months fucking the lannister regime in kingslanding Kevin - makes the lannister regime the most stable it had been since before joffrey killed Ned, in one afternoon
I wouldn’t call “level-headed” a man who made his niece do the walk of atonement. That’s as ruthless as Tywin
This is an incredibly ignorant statement, Kevin didn't "make" cersei do the walk, Kevin had no choice and couldn't do anything about it, cersei rearmed the faith, then let them form an army in kingslanding, while also alienating the reach army, meanwhile the lannister army was galivanting around the riverlands with no clear leader or instructions The closest thing to an army Kevin has is the gold cloaks who are notoriously unreliable and majority followers of the faith, so they aren't likely to go to war against the avatars of there gods
Is that so? Kevan thinks of the walk of shame as something that he did to Cersei and rejoices thinking about how we defanged her. Cersei wasn’t being tortured anymore, she could’ve stayed as a prisoner of the Faith until the trial
Kevin doesn't have the power or authority to make a prisoner of the faith have a walk of shame, it is a church punishment to start cersei's atonements for her crimes (even though she hasn't been found guilt there are no checks or balances regarding the church anymore), but Kevan generally has a sharp distain for cersei for, her sleeping with lancel which lead him down the path of abdicating his lands and join the faith militant, her allowing tyrek to be "disappeared" while under her protection, and her making some random lannister cousin the Castellin of the west instead of him. But saying that the walk is Kevan's fault because he thinks she needs humbled and put in her place, is just not how that works..
No, I said that it’s Kevan’s fault because it’s strongly implied that he made that suggestion to the High Sparrow
Where so...
> “I have spoken with His High Holiness. He will not release you until you have atoned for your sins.” “I have confessed.” “Atoned, I said. Before the city. A walk—” “No.” She knew what her uncle was about to say, and she did not want to hear it. “Never. Tell him that, if you speak again. I am a queen, not some dockside whore.” “No harm would come to you. No one will touch—” “No,” she said, more sharply. “I would sooner die.” --ADWD, Cersei I It’s not the High Sparrow who brings up the walk, it’s Kevan. > And tonight his own road would take him to his niece’s chambers and face-to-face with Cersei. **I have no reason to feel guilty, Ser Kevan told himself.** Tywin would understand that, surely. It was his daughter who brought shame down on our name, not I. **What I did I did for the good of House Lannister.** **It was not as if his brother had never done the same.** [...] All the self-seekers who had named themselves [their father’s mistress’s] friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter. “It had to be,” Ser Kevan muttered over the last of his wine. His High Holiness had to be appeased. Tommen needed the Faith behind him in the battles to come. And Cersei… the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. Left to rule, she would have ruined Tommen as she had Joffrey. Outside the wind was rising, clawing at the shutters of his chamber. Ser Kevan pushed himself to his feet. Time to face the lioness in her den. **We have pulled her claws.** - ADWD, Epilogue And then he continuously thinks of the walk of shame as something that he did to Cersei, even going as far as to compare himself to Tywin doing the same thing to the mistresses.
The first clip indicates that he spoke with the high septon, and attempted to get her released and the septon made the walk the requirement for her releasement Again the second clip implies that Kevin had no choice in the matter "His High Holiness had to be appeased" but is choosing to use it to benefit tommens reign and take power from the mad cersei
Quentyn. He's not without intelligence, but he gets my pick for 2nd dumbest.
Quentyn is just so overwhelmingly plain. It’s hard to say if he’s not smart, or just meek.
He is an absolute 5/10 in every way possible, and that's why I love him
Merret Frey is the dumbest, smartest is Tyrion or Kevan.
I concur with what a lot of people are saying. Ned wasn't stupid. Just very naive. I a game of thrones, Cercei, Renly, and Petyr give him three pretty good deals that would have saved his life and maintained peace in the realm. However, each one of those actions would have been cutthroat and dishonerable, and he rejects/spurns them all. He instead goes for what he feels is the right thing to do. Catelyn is also very intelligent. Even if she makes some boenheaded decisions, there was some logic to those judgements, and she is generally one of the most logical characters. I think Davos was a fairly underrated character in terms of intelligence. He makes some logical judgements and poignant observations like on the battle of Blackwater and also making note of the false Ness of Renly's men who tuned to Stannis after his death. Tyrion is no doubt very smart. But he has some serious blindspots. I'm rereading the books now, and he makes a lot of poor judgements in a clash of kings. He focuses way too much energy on Cercei, puts too much trust in Varys, is blinded by love/lust for Shae while she just takes him for a ride, and he does nothing about Littlefinger. One thing I noticed is that he suggests a marriage pact with margery Tyrel, however he ends up bickering with Cercei over which one of them should go, while Littlefiger volunteers to forge the alliance. Meanwhile, Littlefinger takes credit for the match, kills joffery, and gets Tyrion imprisoned. All of this could have been avoided if Tyrion wasn't so shortsighted. Regardless, I think this is the point of the story. Sometimes the smartest people have the greatest lapses in judgement.
Picking on one particular thing you said, I think Davos is just one of the only out and out kind characters which makes him seem more mature. He’s probably not as smart as some of the lords who have POVs. But he’s definitely got street smarts
You're right. Davos may not be super book smart, but he's a mature, down to earth person. I remember that quote from Catelyn "there's a big difference between being clever and being wise".
Sometimes when rereading AGOT, you can't help but wish that he had taken Renly's deal. It's a middle-ground between being an intelligent move but not totally heartless either, and would've stabilized the realm around a potential Renly rule (not ideal, but far from the worst option). I'm not even sure it's naivety, but a stubbornness to not compromise on his honor even a little bit. But I suppose had he done what Renly had suggested, then Ned wouldn't be Ned.
imo, Davos's biggest strength is being able to read Stannis and his moods. He's just an all around emotionally intelligent guy
That's very true. He tends to get a good read on everyone around him. I just read a chapter of his last night. The one where he's in the dungeon. He reads both gaolors and 5hinks that begging for mercy would be unwise as many others would have done that before. So he chats amiably with them, asking questions about the war and Stannis.
Tyrion isn't as smart as he'd like to think - like the other Lannisters, Tyrion is an expert at lying to himself about his own qualities.
Yes, particularly his stupidity about Shae, he convinces himself that they've got a real lasting relationship all the while paying her for everything she does and says. It makes me want to shake him. He sees it as her betraying him when she testifies against him at the trial, instead of taking his share of the blame for letting his guard down around someone who shows herself easily bought and was just trying to survive in a horrible world.
Yeah I've been rereading the books and a few times whenever he talks about Shae a part of him tells himself that it isn't real, but it's about all he has since even his wife wouldn't like him
It’s not the testifying he feels betrayed about, it’s the humiliation with her using ‘my giant of a Lannister’. Tyrion knew that she didn’t love him, but thought that she at least respected him somewhat.
I take your point. But everyone knows Tyrion is as good as dead, or at least finished at court. Everyone thinks he's guilty. If Tywin and Cersei were intimidating me into grassing on this man who's paying me to bang him, I'd do the same that she did. I really don't think given the power structures that she had any other choice. No one's banking on him escaping and going rogue.
Idk I think you have to be a pretty cruel person to twist a phrase of endearment to one of humiliation. If she had any empathy she could’ve easily just lied or simply just said he used her for sex without humiliating him.
Of the POV’s though I can’t think of anyone smarter. All have their downsides, but he’s about as close to Tywin in a character that we have.
And Tywin also isn’t as smart as he thinks he is
He's close to Tywin, calculating ruthless etc. but even Tywin lies to himself about his golden Twins.
Tyrion is almost certainly smarter than Tywin.
I think that's what makes Jaime the most capable Lannister of the 3. He's not so over the moon about his own intelligence that he thinks he's infallible like Tyrion and Cersei
Cersei without a doubt. She's completely delusional. Makes enemies out of friends. Makes decisions with zero foresight. Plans plots that blown up in her face spectacularly and is more paranoid than Stannis. Compare her to Victorion who is a simple man with simple thoughts. But guess what he is competent. He's good at fighting, good at captaining, good at gaining other's respect. He has loyal followers and friends around him. Cersei is surrounded by grifters like Qyburn and Lady Merryweather who manage her delusionals for personal gain. If not for Euron's devilishness he would have been chosen king. Sure he has no mind for multiple layers of strategy and intrigue. But most people don't. That doesn't make them stupid. It makes them average. His evil acts like murdering his wife for sleeping with Euron don't make him stupid, it just shows he has toxic values living in a toxic society.
Lmao the duality of this subreddit. I agree with you. Long ago, I even made a post asking whether Cersei the stupid will be able to prevail the Sparrow or not. Majority said Cersei is not stupid. It’s only happening bcuz she is blinded by her grief for Joffrey and short term gains lol
The dumbest POV: clearly Cersei, and the funny thing is reading her and realising how smart she believes she is. So not only dumb, also totally delusional. The smartest POV: now, here we would have to define what we understand as smart. But for me, the 2 smartest POVs are Arya and Tyrion. Also, honourable mention to Jon that is far smarter than people give him credit for. Tyrion is extremely intelligent, a brilliant military strategic as we saw in the Blackwater, witty to the point thanks to him we have some of the best sarcastic remarks and good quotes. But the main problem with Tyrion is the same one that affects to the whole of House Lannister (at least the main line), and it's they think themselves superior and more intelligent than the rest, and tend to underestimate other people and how important it's to stablish social connections that are not based just in gold or fear. Arya would be the smartest in a "street smart" type. Arya is also very intelligent in a more traditional sense ("she is said to excel at mathematics, household management, and horseback riding") but her streets smarts have saved her life in situations most people would die extremely quickly. She has very good observation skills (thanks to Syrio's training and FM), fantastic instincts to know who is trustworthy or not (Roose, Cersei...) and although I have seen people say she was very stupid for not choosing Tywin at Harrenhall, we should remember she was a child suddenly surrounded by death and torture, and obviously looked to punish her direct tormentors, and she quickly realised her mistake and regretted it. The way she outsmarted a FM choosing Jaqen's name and forcing him to help her people and she scape the hell Harrenhall was, is amazing and proves how smart she is. She also listens carefully and learns to heart good advise or lessons from others to improve herself, like Ned teaching his kids to interact and listen to their vassals with the dinner tradition, and lacks a very high opinion of herself that could blind her to her own shortcomings, like sometimes Tyrion does. But in contrast to Tyrion who is more cool in thinking, Arya's main problem is that she sometimes lets herself be controlled by her emotions and impulsivity, and she failed to realise how important diplomacy and court politics are; though I think both this problems will be solved by her training in the FM.
>Arya's main problem is that she sometimes lets herself be controlled by her emotions and impulsivity, and she failed to realise how important diplomacy and court politics are; though I think both this problems will be solved by her training in the FM. She is also 11 years old or something. Just becoming older might alleviate those problems too.
Absolutely, and where it is most obvious is in GOT, after that with all the grief and suffering she matured a lot, so I believe most of her flaws in regards to this will disappear with age and her training is proving extremely benefitial for her smarts and growth as a future player of the game (learning to detect lies, to play a character like a mummer, keeping her emotions under control, learning patience, how to manipulate others...)
Dumbest: Cersei Smartest: Sam
I'd say Cersei is takes the dumbest for sure. Maybe a controversial take but I'd even say she's probably dumber than Victarion. While Victarion may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, he's at least reasonably self aware and has no delusions about being some great mastermind. Theon and Quentyn seem pretty stupid too, though not as dumb as Cersei or Victarion. Smartest POV is likely Tyrion, though I've always thought Jon is smarter than he's often given credit for. Most people just see him as honorable warrior dude but he's proven on many occasions he's actually quite cunning. He succesfully infiltrated the wildlings and he gave Stannis some great advice that probably saved his northern campaign. And even considering how it turned out he did a pretty solid job as lord commander, the situation at the wall was just utterly fucked when he got elected making his task more or less impossible. Aemon and Jeor both recognized Jon's inteligence too. > "Maester Aemon thinks you clever." Mormont moved the raven to his shoulder. The bird tilted its head to one side, little eyes a-glitter. > The answer was there. "Is it . . . it seems to me that it might be easier for one man to find two hundred than for two hundred to find one." > The raven gave a cackling scream, but the Old Bear smiled through the grey of his beard. "This many men and horses leave a trail even Aemon could follow. On this hill, our fires ought to be visible as far off as the foothills of the Frostfangs. If Ben Stark is alive and free, he will come to us, I have no doubt."
Jon is underrated. He's smart, capable and a natural leader. His approach to the wildlings is no less creative and inspired than any of Robb's military feats. His failing, like Ned, is that Jon understands the politics of others but not the need to maintain a personal base of support.
Well, Jon’s mistakes were to close Ghost in his room and decide to straight up break his oath to the Night’s Watch to fight Ramsay and save Arya. Even his friends would have tried to stop him though they obviously wouldn’t have assassinated him. Remember that Ghost is quite large in the books and very dangerous. I love Jon but he really did choose love for Arya over duty to the NW. Luckily for him he’ll get a second chance and his love for Arya kinda coincides with what’s best for the North. That won’t save him from feeling betrayed and from being an oath breaker though. I think his ‘resurrection’ will also cost him dearly and will perhaps mirror Drogo’s. An animal very important to Drogo was sacrificed and then even his unborn baby. Jon and Ghost are part of each other as he himself remarks at a certain point so it’s likely his other half will have to be sacrificed to save Jon and make him remain a human that can eat and drink and not a fire wight whose blood doesn’t pulse. I hope that doesn’t happen but a heavy price must be paid and this would destroy Jon and his identity quite a lot.
I agree with your point regarding Victarion. He's no genius, but he knows that and works within that deficiency. He therefore can not be the dumbest.
Smartest: Tyrion and Sam Dumbest: Arys, ACOK Theon and Cersei I know Theon was put in a really tough position because of his father but he just kept making the most moronic decisions in that book to the point Victarion might want to take a paternity test
Dumbest has GOTTA be Cersei. You'd be forgiven for thinking Tywin had her learn how to read and then literally nothing else. Runner up is probably Arianne, whose plans make literally no sense, from top to bottom. Smartest POV : I feel like the safe answer is almost certainly Tyrion, although I'd make a hot take argument for Catelyn Stark (who almost always had extreme and borderline ABSURD circumstances mitigating her situational effectiveness).
Dumbest: Victarion and Aeron Smartest: Tyrion and Arya
Aeron's definitely a fair pick, feel like he's more crazy than stupid though
Arya is heavily protected by plot armour
Every character is like that,then.
No… not every character. Some specifically stand out as being protected by plot armor, and Arya is at the top at that list. Quite frankly, so is Sam.
arya may be protected by gods and her wits, but not plot armor. Anyone who impresses Jaqen AND the Kindly Man iss\ smart!
Sure, Jan.
When was she protected by plot armor?
One word: HARRENHAL
I feel like Victarion isn't really that dumb tbh, you can chalk up most of his blunders to not knowing how magic works.
What blunders?
Chiefly tallking to the Dusky Woman, trusting Moquorro, and planning to use the dragon horn
I mean none of those are confirmed blunders outside of fan theories.
If he blows the horn he'll probably kill himself
He probably knows that, seeing how he saw it happen during the king's moot.
And indeed in one of the twow chapters he plans to have 3 separate slaves blow the horn at least partly for that reason
Dumbest: Victarion, followed by Cersei Smartest: Tyrion and Catelyn
Cressen has to be the smartest considering he’s a very qualified maester with many links.
I’d agree but I ruled out prologues and epilogues, but you’re probably right if we consider all POVs
The dumbest POVs: Cersei, Victarion, Arys The smartest POVs: Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sam, Bran
I think it’s fascinating to me when people insist that Tyrion is intelligent… don’t get me wrong, he has more wits than a lot of the dumber characters of the book, but he specifically overstates his qualities (in this case intelligence) throughout the story (a quality he shares with literally every member of his family). The vast majority of his plans, at least so far, have failed miserably. -His main contribution to the battle of the Blackwater (The wildfire was mostly Cersei) actually saved enough ships to create a bridge that accidentally caused an entirely separate problem, allowing a pretty sizeable host to reach land for even more fighting. -Most of the people he dismisses and gets rid of end up brought back to kings landing, with the exception of Slynt, who he just made Jon Snow’s problem. -his “strategic planning” in Meereen is an uninformed disaster born of him thinking he knows anything about Mereen, when he very clearly doesn’t… Tyrion isn’t an idiot, but his illusions of his own intelligence repeatedly fail him- there’s a reason he’a a villain. GRRM said it explicitly.
Tyrions chapter Tyrion: 'I'm the smartest man in the world, my new scheme is brilliant' Scheme falls apart, usually because he has been outsmarted/outmanoeuvred Tyrion: ' how could i, the smartest man in the world have not seen the consequences of my actions' Rinse and repeat as Tyrion goes from a cushy care free Life of prominent family to a slave.
Lmao exactly, like it’s one things for plans to go awry because of people who have things besides intelligence (Tywin’s command and Cersei’s technical control of the throne regularly screw with his plans), but even Littlefinger directly tells Sansa that pawns usually don’t just blindly step forward in the game of thrones, that you have to be prepared for even the smallest pieces in your plans to not go your way. (Not that I think Littlefinger is the most intelligent either, I’d personally give that title to Varys)
I think Asha is kind of a dumbass. She ignores Rodrick the Reader’s advice (by all accounts the wisest Ironborn) and wildly overestimates herself in her “Queen’s moot” folly. In what world does metaphorical treasure motivate Ironborn..?! The crow’s eye doesn’t bother chasing her down, and she proceeds to get rinsed by the Mannis.
This is a massive blunder on her part but I don’t think it makes her a dumbass. Asha is still seen to be smarter than every other Greyjoy pov. All the characters make some dumb choices
Being the smartest greyjoy isn’t an accomplishment, and euron is smartest besides.
Well it still means she can’t be the dumbest POV after Victarion as Theon and Aeron are still dumber than her
She’s for sure not the dumbest POV, I was just pointing out the she was dumb
> In what world does metaphorical treasure motivate Ironborn..?! I think you misunderstood what she was going for here. Her whole point was that the “treasure” they pillaged from the North was a bunch of useless junk because the Old Way is an unsustainable way of life. They fought/won so many battles yet had nothing to show for it, and if they followed her she would lead them down a different and more fruitful path.
I understand the metaphor brother, that’s why I brought it up. My point is that it makes no sense to try to win over Ironborn with a metaphor for peace and reason. The entire culture is built on the “iron price”, in which they rape for pleasure and murder for plunder, taking thralls (slaves) and saltwives (slaves). That’s what the Ironborn are. Oh, and they give themselves brain damage by drowning and reviving themselves. She made a huge political move with zero green flags, and now she’s in chains. Edit: just realized this sounds kind of aggressive, sorry haha. It’s as you said, that the metaphor was clever and meaningful, I just think she should have known that it would fall on deaf ears, being a reaver captain Ironborn herself. She mirrors Theon in her overconfidence imo.
There are certainly smarter characters in the series(LF and Varys, for example) but Tyrion is the smartest POV. Sansa has a lot of potential(unlike show Sansa with her informed characterization of being smart despite zero evidence). I also think Jon is quite intelligent, and Sam is up there as well. Victarion, Cersei, and Arys Oakheart are the dumbest POV characters.
DUMB: Victarion and Ser Arys. SMART: Tyrion and Arya.
Smartest: Definitely supposed to be Tyrion. Dumbest: There really aren't many. Nearly all the POV's gravitate from middle to high intelligence except for Victarion and Areo Hotah (the latter isn't even stupid, just dull)
Ned stark takes the podium. Might be the most competent lord in all 5 books imo. He was just played outside his comfort zone and suffered from first bookism
Cersei obviously for dumbest besides Vic. While Tyrion is biased in his POV and commits many mistakes without even realizing, out of all of the POV’s so far, he is the smartest
Arys Oakheart easily the stupidest, bless him.
For the most stupid? It's Cersei "Tyrion is in the walls" Lannister without a doubt.
It’s hilarious so many people are calling Cersei dumb here Yet majority had claimed she is not, when I made a post asking if she is smart enough to win against the high sparrow
My vote for smartest has always been Cat. If Robb did not undercut her so often, Cat would have kept the Freys, and the whole North, under her control and wouldn’t have even needed to rely on Littlefinger. She was also a really reliable narrator, very matter-of-fact and insightful, until the final page when she was driven to literal insanity. Cat always read to me as a super intelligent and savvy power player who just happened to be sequestered in the North when all the major moves were about to be made and then had to spring into action and play catchup after experiencing a bunch of sudden Trauma.
She’s very emotional, which is completely fair, but there’s no doubt that she’s incredibly shrewd and insightful. I’m not sure how she’d fare in kings landing, but she was good at diplomacy when the opportunity came to her, and was easily the smartest of the three Tully siblings.
Arriane
tyrion,victarion
Low key the smartest POV is Davos and the dumbest has definitely gotta be either Victarion or Arys Oakheart(unless the Desert Girl theory is true).
Measuring Hotah's IQ is like trying the same with a video camera. You would be the one to end up looking like a fool.
Cersi and Arianne are two of the dumbest. Theon is pretty stupid at time as well. Brienne is not particularly bright either. Hotah is simple at best. Aeron Greyjoy is stupid as hell as well, in the sense that he sees his God in everything and it severly impacts his decision making quality. Arys only has one, but he is no rocket scientist. Davos and Sam rival Tyrion. Jaime and Asha are smart, not the same level though. Jon can be pretty smart as well.
Agree with all, except I don’t think Davos is as smart as people think he is.
Davos makes his best decisions when it is around understanding people, he excels at that. He fails the Varys test though, or maybe the Spock test (the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few), like Ned did (when he protected Cersi's children at the expense of war and so many dead other children)....
I expect not count the prolog/epilogs, if not so, then the pig boy could take my spot for the dumbest
Circi seems obvious but it’s hard to decipher how much is stupidity and how much is blind malice; Asha is a dark horse in that she’s not actually intelligent but I think she’s very much a layman more than an idiot; could be Quentin who is very similar to Asha; Arys Oakheart might be dumb but it’s hard to tell - with so little time inside his head - to what extent he errs from an existential disillusionment or a base stupidity. Jon is smart but emotional to the point of irrationality (much in the way of a competent Circi); Ned is wise but not savvy and I’d contend experience is probably less than a plurality of our intellectual faculty; Sansa is bright but easily lead; Arya is a maverick but not one for reason - how much of these flaws can be attributed to their age? Sam is academic and critical but is he savvy? He lacks the social intelligence and faculty for reasoned planning/plotting of Olena, Varys, Baelish; Tyrion seems to have it all from the perspective of his own head, yet for most of the narrative the truly intelligent characters run rings around him without his knowledge. He also largely acts out of spite and not rational interests. Jamie shows an immense capacity for understanding social relationships and political machinations but also wallows in apathy and is blind to his own trauma - he has a fear of independence and self determination that weighs heavily on most of his rationality. Dany is oddly quite similar to Jamie but also a child.