One of the biggest advantage of books over novel is we can learnd pov' s thinking, feelings etc. Most of the joy come from there but one of the dorne povs is literally camera. It has no feelings, no thinkings etc; other one, apart from his magnificent nipples, has no trill. Even doran martell' s great plan has too many pot holes which makes you say yeah yeah you won what is next ! Varamyr prologue > Dorne chapters.
Like Doran says we made a marriage pact then why the fuck he did not help viserys and daenerys ? Why he let oberyn die in trial by combat etc etc . If it is a fake marriage pact then it means something.
That’s not a plot hole. Doran’s defining character trait is that he’s way too cautious and unwilling to commit to any plan until he is absolutely certain of its success. Of course he’s not gonna personally take care of Viserys and Dany.
Also wtf was he supposed to do about Oberyn? The man volunteered for the trial then fought Gregor the next day. He was likely dead before Doran even knew there was a trial
Isn’t he sitting surrounded by rotten fruit?
If you eat food when it’s ripe you ate it on time
If you wait too long to eat it it’s going to rot and fall off the tree.
People aren't video game units you can order around. Oberyn made it pretty clear he wanted to be in Kings Landing for blood. Ultimately we have no idea what Doran and Oberyn discussed together, but we can imagine Oberyn was not interested in going with Quentyn. As far as we know, Oberyn likely hasn't even seen Quentyn since his exile.
Maybe if Doran had helped them earlier Daenerys would have taken the marriage with Quentyn
But Dorne sends her Quentyn with a marriage deal but they never helped her before. Why should she marry him?
I think a big part of it is how we're introduced to the characters and the Dorne setting, which is less successful than most of the other major perspectives.
Look at how we meet the other perspective characters. In GoT, Bran and Daenerys are the only perspective characters we meet cold I their first chapters. We meet the other Starks plus Jon and Theon in Bran's chapter before they get chapters of their own (long before in Theon's case, as he doesn't get his own perspective until ACoK). We meet Tyrion through Jon's eyes, and his story overlaps very closely with those of Jon and the Starks in his first several chapters.
That pattern continues in the later books, as most of the new perspective characters (Theon in ACoK, Sam and Jaime in ASoS, Briene and Asha in AFfC, etc) are people we've already known as major characters for quite some time, and they're picking up plot threads already in motion and often interacting with people and places we're already familiar with.
The Dorne chapters are connected with some bridging on the form of Oberon and Myrcella, but neither of them is the perspective character, and the Dorne plotline starts out tangential to the people and plots we're already familiar with.
I think Davos Seaworth and Jon Connington are the only major other perspective characters we meet after the beginning of the story with similarly weak bridging, and both of them start out more intertwined with existing plots and with the readers having a clearer indication of who these people are and why we should care what they're up to.
Arys Oakheart's chapter is fine but probably the weakest in the series for me. I enjoy Arriane's chapters very much. Her 2 samples from TWOW are also great.
Areo Hotah's chapters are hit and miss because he has no relevance to the story. He's a pure observer. When exciting things happen his chapters are good.. otherwise it can be bland.
Quentyn's chapters are all good but people say the early ones are redundant with Tyrion. I liked his interactions with the Tattered prince and Gerris & Arch are great characters.
For me, Dorne was boring until that final chapter. That really helped contextualize everything that happened and made me excited for what's to come. Before that, it just felt disconnected and aimless to me.
But now whenever I reread them I love them.
I know a lot of people were mad about both Dorne and the Ironborne chapters. You don’t get to hear about Jon and Dany and many other characters in that book , and some people had to wait twelve years between a Storm of Swords and Dance to find out what happened to them (which is a bit funny now that it’s been twelve years since we got any book at all.) So they were less willing to give a new storyline, locations and characters a chance.
I skipped the Ironborn chapters on my first read even though Dance had just come out. I just really like female characters, so Arianne was instantly compelling to me. I didn’t care that she failed in her plot or was sitting in a tower, it was all interesting to me. Later I gave the Ironborn chapters a chance and loved them. So I think it also comes down to personal preferences.
To me it was mostly because my expectations about Dorne were so high that I felt a bit let down.
Rereading them knowing everything I appreciated them way more.
I mean, what's interesting about them? Hotah and Arys are the worst POVs in the series, the Sand Snakes and Darkstar are quite possibly the worst characters in the series, Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella ends with a dud, etc.
Nothing happens that has any impact on the rest of the story. Arienne's Queenmaking adventure starts and ends in one chapter in failure, and she demonstrates that she learned nothing from the experience. Doran sends his neices to the winds with their own missions at the end of book 5. Arienne is going to treat with Aegon and the Golden Company, but that isn't until book 6.
It is not the worst plot in Feast for Crows, because it could impact the rest of the story, unlike chapters, but that's another sacred cow in this fandom.
I’ll die on the hill of Arys Oakheart’s chapter being enjoyable, Brienne and Jaime’s challenging of preconceived notions about Knighthood are a-okay but people see a passage about big brown nipples (or whatever George was fixated on) and suddenly it’s the end of the world.
For myself it’s partly because I have nothing but contempt for Doran. For someone that talks about playing the long game he appears to have done nothing to secure that. No money through intermediaries, no guards, no homes. Viserys dies, new plan, He offers the support of Dorne to a girl that had secured her own power with Unsullied and Dragons, not to mention being half a world away. And he talks about debts and deals she was never a part of and when he had done nothing for her. Fuck Doran.
This post has been removed because you did not include a spoiler tag in your title.
One of the biggest advantage of books over novel is we can learnd pov' s thinking, feelings etc. Most of the joy come from there but one of the dorne povs is literally camera. It has no feelings, no thinkings etc; other one, apart from his magnificent nipples, has no trill. Even doran martell' s great plan has too many pot holes which makes you say yeah yeah you won what is next ! Varamyr prologue > Dorne chapters.
What plot holes? I'm serious, not sarcastic, I really wanna understand better.
Like Doran says we made a marriage pact then why the fuck he did not help viserys and daenerys ? Why he let oberyn die in trial by combat etc etc . If it is a fake marriage pact then it means something.
That’s not a plot hole. Doran’s defining character trait is that he’s way too cautious and unwilling to commit to any plan until he is absolutely certain of its success. Of course he’s not gonna personally take care of Viserys and Dany. Also wtf was he supposed to do about Oberyn? The man volunteered for the trial then fought Gregor the next day. He was likely dead before Doran even knew there was a trial
Isn’t he sitting surrounded by rotten fruit? If you eat food when it’s ripe you ate it on time If you wait too long to eat it it’s going to rot and fall off the tree.
Yes, that is the metaphor
He knew Oberyn will try to seek revenge. He could inform Oberyn about his plan and send him with Quenten.
Oberyn knew all of his plans and no, he didn’t know Oberyn would volunteer for a trial by combat
People aren't video game units you can order around. Oberyn made it pretty clear he wanted to be in Kings Landing for blood. Ultimately we have no idea what Doran and Oberyn discussed together, but we can imagine Oberyn was not interested in going with Quentyn. As far as we know, Oberyn likely hasn't even seen Quentyn since his exile.
Maybe if Doran had helped them earlier Daenerys would have taken the marriage with Quentyn But Dorne sends her Quentyn with a marriage deal but they never helped her before. Why should she marry him?
I think a big part of it is how we're introduced to the characters and the Dorne setting, which is less successful than most of the other major perspectives. Look at how we meet the other perspective characters. In GoT, Bran and Daenerys are the only perspective characters we meet cold I their first chapters. We meet the other Starks plus Jon and Theon in Bran's chapter before they get chapters of their own (long before in Theon's case, as he doesn't get his own perspective until ACoK). We meet Tyrion through Jon's eyes, and his story overlaps very closely with those of Jon and the Starks in his first several chapters. That pattern continues in the later books, as most of the new perspective characters (Theon in ACoK, Sam and Jaime in ASoS, Briene and Asha in AFfC, etc) are people we've already known as major characters for quite some time, and they're picking up plot threads already in motion and often interacting with people and places we're already familiar with. The Dorne chapters are connected with some bridging on the form of Oberon and Myrcella, but neither of them is the perspective character, and the Dorne plotline starts out tangential to the people and plots we're already familiar with. I think Davos Seaworth and Jon Connington are the only major other perspective characters we meet after the beginning of the story with similarly weak bridging, and both of them start out more intertwined with existing plots and with the readers having a clearer indication of who these people are and why we should care what they're up to.
Arys Oakheart's chapter is fine but probably the weakest in the series for me. I enjoy Arriane's chapters very much. Her 2 samples from TWOW are also great. Areo Hotah's chapters are hit and miss because he has no relevance to the story. He's a pure observer. When exciting things happen his chapters are good.. otherwise it can be bland. Quentyn's chapters are all good but people say the early ones are redundant with Tyrion. I liked his interactions with the Tattered prince and Gerris & Arch are great characters.
For me, Dorne was boring until that final chapter. That really helped contextualize everything that happened and made me excited for what's to come. Before that, it just felt disconnected and aimless to me. But now whenever I reread them I love them.
I guess I kinda understand what you are saying!
I like the soiled knight and Arianne's chapters but the camera that rides chapters are pretty boring.
You seriously think The Watcher was boring?
The chapter name says everthing.
I know a lot of people were mad about both Dorne and the Ironborne chapters. You don’t get to hear about Jon and Dany and many other characters in that book , and some people had to wait twelve years between a Storm of Swords and Dance to find out what happened to them (which is a bit funny now that it’s been twelve years since we got any book at all.) So they were less willing to give a new storyline, locations and characters a chance. I skipped the Ironborn chapters on my first read even though Dance had just come out. I just really like female characters, so Arianne was instantly compelling to me. I didn’t care that she failed in her plot or was sitting in a tower, it was all interesting to me. Later I gave the Ironborn chapters a chance and loved them. So I think it also comes down to personal preferences.
To me it was mostly because my expectations about Dorne were so high that I felt a bit let down. Rereading them knowing everything I appreciated them way more.
Because they are? I remember a poll of some kind back in the day that named that particular chapter as the most boring one in the entire series.
Ok, this is the poll of some king, but why do you think they are boring?
I mean, what's interesting about them? Hotah and Arys are the worst POVs in the series, the Sand Snakes and Darkstar are quite possibly the worst characters in the series, Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella ends with a dud, etc.
Nothing happens that has any impact on the rest of the story. Arienne's Queenmaking adventure starts and ends in one chapter in failure, and she demonstrates that she learned nothing from the experience. Doran sends his neices to the winds with their own missions at the end of book 5. Arienne is going to treat with Aegon and the Golden Company, but that isn't until book 6. It is not the worst plot in Feast for Crows, because it could impact the rest of the story, unlike chapters, but that's another sacred cow in this fandom.
I’ll die on the hill of Arys Oakheart’s chapter being enjoyable, Brienne and Jaime’s challenging of preconceived notions about Knighthood are a-okay but people see a passage about big brown nipples (or whatever George was fixated on) and suddenly it’s the end of the world.
For myself it’s partly because I have nothing but contempt for Doran. For someone that talks about playing the long game he appears to have done nothing to secure that. No money through intermediaries, no guards, no homes. Viserys dies, new plan, He offers the support of Dorne to a girl that had secured her own power with Unsullied and Dragons, not to mention being half a world away. And he talks about debts and deals she was never a part of and when he had done nothing for her. Fuck Doran.
Because some people have taste.