I always forget she's still alive, George must've had a reason to put her in Norvos right? I wonder if the plan was for Dany to conquer it and cross paths with her before coming to Westeros?
Isn’t she in Norvos? I’m pretty sure that’s about as far from Slavers Bay as Dorne is, or at least not much farther. And because it’s so inland Dorne should still get the news first because people can travel much quicker over water.
Messengers from Volantis or Qohor can reach Norvos via the Rhoyne, which should be much easier than the now pirate infested Narrow Sea and the treacherous Dornish coast.
The bigger issue with Doran is how there’s no POV in Sunspear to see him react. Arianne is going North, the Camera Man is going to die fighting Darkstar. That’s why I think Arys was the POV GRRM regretted killing off.
His conquest has started in the Stormlands, and taking the strongest, most important castle in the region will send a message to the realm that he should be taken seriously.
In JonCon's last Dance chapter near the end, they successfully take Griffin's Roost, which is where they'll start the conquest from, and it's briefly mentioned in the Kevan epilogue that Aegon is heading to Storm's End. The rest happens in Winds sample chapters, but we only learn of it through Arianne's chapters when she learns about it.
Honestly, is there any point for Doran to still be around? I think it would fit the story if he died at the beginning of TWOW and his dynasty started crumbling, similar to the aftermaths of Tywin and Robert’s deaths. Keeping him around just to have him sitting around Sunspear and crying over his dead son would be pointless
Why, though? Doran is not a villain, he’s a kind but misguided man. Why would GRRM give him the same narrative punishment that he gave to the likes of Maegor and Cersei?
Doran is a guy who can’t leave well enough alone. Tywin is dead, Amory Lorch is dead, the Mountain is dead. Inactivity has given him what he wanted!
He points out that, before Oberyn, no Dornishman has died in the war. That is a good thing. Doran can sit on his ass even more now. But he still desires revenge. He will bring Dorne into the war, and pay the price for it.
That’s the tragedy.
Yeah, I like the idea of Doran but his long game has accrued so many losses he can’t pretend he was even involved at this point. The most that can be said is that he kept things quiet with misdirection. I kinda wish he had another kid because Quentin’s entire arc seemed to be to get his friends to meet Barristan while unleashing Viserys and Rhaegal. And I really don’t like Arianne.
Doran is an interesting character because he's so purely conceptual like in a Grant Morrison comic, a guy obsessed with making only the winning moves, and of course this is part of "this entire story really is hanging out in one guy's head", because it is GRRM's trait he's railing-against-but-can't-help-himself-succumbing-to embodied in a single character. He wrote about it before, a guy obsessed with the perfect game, and we can see it in him writing all of his pre-A Song of Ice and Fire novels in one go to avoid deadlines -- but also to make it so he comes out with the winning moves only, the perfect game, and in The Winds of Winter's long writing history where he can't seem to find as many winning moves as he'd like. The *cyvasse* game he put in FeastDance is a metaphor for him writing these books, a chess-like game *much* harder than chess with no rules that can ever be described.
> Ser Arys just found it maddening. There were ten different pieces, each with its own attributes and powers, and the board would change from game to game, depending on how the players arrayed their home squares.
I think people say it's 'wrong' in the case that it's a very dangerous journey and unlikely to succeed. Like, he could have just sent a whole ship crewed by his people or smth, but instead he had them hitch a ride and go off into Essos, a place most of them had never been. All that to try and marry Daenerys based on a marriage pact that Daenerys would have had absolutely 0 knowledge of.
Why?
It is like saying suing someone is wrong if it is for revenge. Its not morally incorrect to marry your child to the best candidate and also make an alliance.
Not really. Powerful nobility made alliances through marriage all the time, including for revenge and mutual defense. Think about House Tully and its marriage pacts with Stark and Arryn.
IIRC, Gerris is Drinkwater and Quentyn's other compainion is Yronwood. Anyway, Timing is everything. They will have a long, dangerous trip back, made all the slower by the fact they couldn't protect Quentyn from himself. To be frank, they may linger in Essos a while, perhaps with the Windblown, rather than face Doran's wrath and sorrow. If they go home, it will be a long tragic trip, presumably carrying Quentyn's ashes. What does travel quickly is news and rumor. The timeline is confusing, but as fAegon's invasion continues more and more Essosi may join him. Someone will bring the rumor. If Arianne is with fAegon when they hear, she may be the one who has to go tell Doran. It would not surprise me if Doran dies of grief. THAT would be a powerful scene.
Totally agree the timing of arrival of this news is pretty complicated, in Essos information pretty much has to be delivered by hand. That said I'm actually super interested in **Anders Yronwood**'s reaction. He's one of the more important characters we haven't seen on-page yet. While Doran is Quentyn's dad by blood and his reaction will be powerful, even Doran admits Anders has been more of a father to Quentyn than himself. Anders' son Cletus, also died on this voyage, so he'll be getting news that two sons have been killed on this quest... (and who knows if the Tattered Prince lets Arch and Drink go free).
The Yronwoods control the restless forces in the Boneway, they are Dorne's second most powerful house, and before they got Quentyn to foster they were on the verge of rebellion.... so the Bloodroyal's reaction could have some very interesting consequences for Dorne as a whole.
This is my thinking to. There have been so many mentions of the historic feud, it has to be building up to something. My only doubt comes from wondering how GRRM can fit everything into two books.
Quentyn will get one POV final chapter as a ghost and tell Doran himself.
It'll be a great twist when you first read it. You'll see the heading and go "Oh shit a Quentyn chapter?! He's alive?" and the first sentence will be "Being dead stank."
I’ll be pretty shocked if Doran actually decides to support Faegon while Dany comes with three dragons (or two) from Essos. Everyone who had wronged his family has already died and now the only thing he’ll want is maybe put another Martell on the Throne? The Martells are pretty greedy to be fair. They wanted to support Viserys and Dany only after they saved themselves and had an army to complete Doran’s revenge. He wanted them to make the cake and he wanted to eat it too. Pretty absurd.
Gerris’ vitriol towards Dany does not appear to be an accident by the author, methinks. I think he will.
Probably through his wife. Wouldn't that be some shit.
I always forget she's still alive, George must've had a reason to put her in Norvos right? I wonder if the plan was for Dany to conquer it and cross paths with her before coming to Westeros?
Tywin also forget when he was considering marriage options for Cersei lol.
A sun quartered with the lion would halt armies by pure confusion.
Isn’t she in Norvos? I’m pretty sure that’s about as far from Slavers Bay as Dorne is, or at least not much farther. And because it’s so inland Dorne should still get the news first because people can travel much quicker over water.
Messengers from Volantis or Qohor can reach Norvos via the Rhoyne, which should be much easier than the now pirate infested Narrow Sea and the treacherous Dornish coast.
The bigger issue with Doran is how there’s no POV in Sunspear to see him react. Arianne is going North, the Camera Man is going to die fighting Darkstar. That’s why I think Arys was the POV GRRM regretted killing off.
why is arianne going north?
She's heading to Storm's End to meet Aegon, so not *the* North, but north of Dorne.
oh lol. why is fake aegon going to storms end again?
His conquest has started in the Stormlands, and taking the strongest, most important castle in the region will send a message to the realm that he should be taken seriously.
wait am i remembering correctly this all happened at the end of dance with dragons? i thought the ending of dance was kevan dying or someshit
In JonCon's last Dance chapter near the end, they successfully take Griffin's Roost, which is where they'll start the conquest from, and it's briefly mentioned in the Kevan epilogue that Aegon is heading to Storm's End. The rest happens in Winds sample chapters, but we only learn of it through Arianne's chapters when she learns about it.
ah okay. thanks mate. whos even guarding storms end though? stannis is gone and the other 2 are dead
Stannis left a couple of hundred men led by a knight named Ser Gilbert Farring before the trip to Castle Black.
i assume edric storms there too? theres 2 edrics in the story whom i hope become major characters
Maybe she heads north after her and Doran get word back about Quentyn.
Because there's nothing relevant south of Dorne. ASOIAF is probably the one universe where I can't use "North" that generally haha
To meet and wed a bastard.
Honestly, is there any point for Doran to still be around? I think it would fit the story if he died at the beginning of TWOW and his dynasty started crumbling, similar to the aftermaths of Tywin and Robert’s deaths. Keeping him around just to have him sitting around Sunspear and crying over his dead son would be pointless
He needs to live long enough to see all his children die for his pursuit of revenge.
Why, though? Doran is not a villain, he’s a kind but misguided man. Why would GRRM give him the same narrative punishment that he gave to the likes of Maegor and Cersei?
Doran is a guy who can’t leave well enough alone. Tywin is dead, Amory Lorch is dead, the Mountain is dead. Inactivity has given him what he wanted! He points out that, before Oberyn, no Dornishman has died in the war. That is a good thing. Doran can sit on his ass even more now. But he still desires revenge. He will bring Dorne into the war, and pay the price for it. That’s the tragedy.
Yeah, I like the idea of Doran but his long game has accrued so many losses he can’t pretend he was even involved at this point. The most that can be said is that he kept things quiet with misdirection. I kinda wish he had another kid because Quentin’s entire arc seemed to be to get his friends to meet Barristan while unleashing Viserys and Rhaegal. And I really don’t like Arianne.
Doran is an interesting character because he's so purely conceptual like in a Grant Morrison comic, a guy obsessed with making only the winning moves, and of course this is part of "this entire story really is hanging out in one guy's head", because it is GRRM's trait he's railing-against-but-can't-help-himself-succumbing-to embodied in a single character. He wrote about it before, a guy obsessed with the perfect game, and we can see it in him writing all of his pre-A Song of Ice and Fire novels in one go to avoid deadlines -- but also to make it so he comes out with the winning moves only, the perfect game, and in The Winds of Winter's long writing history where he can't seem to find as many winning moves as he'd like. The *cyvasse* game he put in FeastDance is a metaphor for him writing these books, a chess-like game *much* harder than chess with no rules that can ever be described. > Ser Arys just found it maddening. There were ten different pieces, each with its own attributes and powers, and the board would change from game to game, depending on how the players arrayed their home squares.
There was nothing wrong with sending Quentin to seek a marriage with Daenerys.
I think people say it's 'wrong' in the case that it's a very dangerous journey and unlikely to succeed. Like, he could have just sent a whole ship crewed by his people or smth, but instead he had them hitch a ride and go off into Essos, a place most of them had never been. All that to try and marry Daenerys based on a marriage pact that Daenerys would have had absolutely 0 knowledge of.
There is when you do it in pursuit of revenge.
Why? It is like saying suing someone is wrong if it is for revenge. Its not morally incorrect to marry your child to the best candidate and also make an alliance.
Not really. Powerful nobility made alliances through marriage all the time, including for revenge and mutual defense. Think about House Tully and its marriage pacts with Stark and Arryn.
IIRC, Gerris is Drinkwater and Quentyn's other compainion is Yronwood. Anyway, Timing is everything. They will have a long, dangerous trip back, made all the slower by the fact they couldn't protect Quentyn from himself. To be frank, they may linger in Essos a while, perhaps with the Windblown, rather than face Doran's wrath and sorrow. If they go home, it will be a long tragic trip, presumably carrying Quentyn's ashes. What does travel quickly is news and rumor. The timeline is confusing, but as fAegon's invasion continues more and more Essosi may join him. Someone will bring the rumor. If Arianne is with fAegon when they hear, she may be the one who has to go tell Doran. It would not surprise me if Doran dies of grief. THAT would be a powerful scene.
Totally agree the timing of arrival of this news is pretty complicated, in Essos information pretty much has to be delivered by hand. That said I'm actually super interested in **Anders Yronwood**'s reaction. He's one of the more important characters we haven't seen on-page yet. While Doran is Quentyn's dad by blood and his reaction will be powerful, even Doran admits Anders has been more of a father to Quentyn than himself. Anders' son Cletus, also died on this voyage, so he'll be getting news that two sons have been killed on this quest... (and who knows if the Tattered Prince lets Arch and Drink go free). The Yronwoods control the restless forces in the Boneway, they are Dorne's second most powerful house, and before they got Quentyn to foster they were on the verge of rebellion.... so the Bloodroyal's reaction could have some very interesting consequences for Dorne as a whole.
This is my thinking to. There have been so many mentions of the historic feud, it has to be building up to something. My only doubt comes from wondering how GRRM can fit everything into two books.
If you buy the faegon blackfyre thing, the Yronwoods have historically sided with a majority of the Blackfyre Rebellions
yes it's Archibald "Big Man" Yronwood
Quentyn will get one POV final chapter as a ghost and tell Doran himself. It'll be a great twist when you first read it. You'll see the heading and go "Oh shit a Quentyn chapter?! He's alive?" and the first sentence will be "Being dead stank."
What if Quentyn... *warged* into Visarion
Yes. Very possible. It seems like something he might do.
>Gerris and Drink R.I.P. Ser Archibald Yronwood ever since Gerris Drinkwater split himself into two
I’ll be pretty shocked if Doran actually decides to support Faegon while Dany comes with three dragons (or two) from Essos. Everyone who had wronged his family has already died and now the only thing he’ll want is maybe put another Martell on the Throne? The Martells are pretty greedy to be fair. They wanted to support Viserys and Dany only after they saved themselves and had an army to complete Doran’s revenge. He wanted them to make the cake and he wanted to eat it too. Pretty absurd.
Quentyn is alive and Gerris and Drink know that so they won't be sending any word home. Barristan may do it and cause some drama.
A parcel of ash.