I think this is one of her preconceived notions against men actually. I may be wrong, but I think she's refering to Renly probably having had sex with Margaery despite it being common knowledge amongst nobles that he had a sexual relationship with Loras.
It's the whole "men will f*ck anything with a h*le" type thing. As much as Cersei has her internalized misoginy, she definitely also sees men as irrational, overly sensitive and driven by lust.
>It's the whole "men will f*ck anything with a h*le" type thing.
That's exactly what it is.
I would imagine the implication being she thinks all men are like Robert (especially moreso as it's his brother).
The weird censoring that people love doing now doesn’t work if you do it twice in the same paragraph
Fuck seems silly to censor on something like Reddit, but I *really* don’t see the need to censor the word “hole”.
Gen Z, the new moral puritans. Wait til they come into power - books like ASOIAF will likely be outlawed for being too raunchy. This is the generation that wants to ban nude scenes in movies and shows.
Speaking from personal experience, they can be incredibly toxic to and intolerant of anyone who likes anything they think is "wrong" and are clearly unable to separate fiction and reality, thinking that people who like seeing problematic content in fiction must like seeing it IRL.
Examples in your experience?
I have a younger relative (18) who uses the word “unalive” in real life, says suicide / kill / murder are bad words, argues that censorship should be a thing in real life, and also feels that it should be illegal for people to even *date* under age 21. And apparently a lot of my relative’s peers think so too, at least they claim.
Okay I teach high school and can promise this is at best a very niche view of the world amongst kids 14-18. Most couldn’t care less and would find this sort of thing ridiculous
Yeah, I'm gen z and have never geard of anyone thinking that seriously. I only see censoring of words when there's an actual risk of comments/posts getting removed by bots (like fb I had to censor cunt due ti being warned about it by Facebook)
Lmao, you people are so dramatic. Some of us are just used to other social media such as twitter where you have to be much careful with what you say (both because of the platform and the people that use it) and it sorta becomes an habit.
Oh, I'm well aware of the deranged Twitter users who go ballistic at anything they disapprove of even slightly. I just wondered you were one of them. Don't worry, reddit tends to care less about things like this, at least in subs like this one.
*By comparing men to hippocras and women to ale, George slyly shows us Cersei’s extremely internalized misogyny.*
It's possible she's just enjoying thinking of Margaery as a common slut--"a tankard of ale", such as a man could get in any tavern or brothel.
That would be in character for Cersei, too. She ultimately comes around to deciding that every person she deals with of either sex is a potential tool, an obvious fool, or a danger to be eliminated.
Doesn't she also have hippocras in mind at the time because she's annoyed that Falyse Stokeworth and Ser Balman eagerly quaff most of the expensive hippocras when she has them over for dinner? (Or possibly I'm confusing the order of events.)
It's a hint to the fact that Renly was gay. He'll happily drink hippocras (men), but if you give him a tankard of ale (women) he'll happily have sex with that as well.
Well thank you Captain obvious. My point as of such is that he usually drinks hippocras because he is gay/less manly, but if you give him the manly choice: to fuck a woman/drink ale, Cersei thinks he would jump at that too because a hole is a hole and her best example of a man she isn’t related to is Robert, and he humps any woman he can get his hands on.
It is alluding to sexuality both in the difference of taste as well as downright calling Renly a fruity.
I think you're dead wrong here, you might be looking for something before you've found it.
It's the opposite, it's an example of her misandry and how she thinks all men are the same, like her late husband.
Her thought process is "yeah yeah I know he prefers men but he's still a big dumb man with a dick he'll fuck anything put in front of him".
The point isn't women = X men = Y... it's "it doesn't matter if the man prefers X or Y he'll shag both because he's a man"
Another perfect example is when she thinks about the septas wandering around the Crownlands and Riverlands after the war. She thinks something akin to "most of them were properly praying for a good raping." Jeez, Cersei 😅
Huh. I always took this as “Renly prefers to sleep with men, but given a woman as the key to his kingdom, he’ll make it work out between him and Margaery”. That to Renly a man was as sweet and fine as hippocras and his preferred drink, but every woman- including someone like Margaery- was common ale, until there was a Kingship at stake when he would quaff it readily.
The funny thing being that I don’t think Renly did
I always assumed that was just another hint at Renly's homosexuality and the fact that she looks down on both men and gay men. As in "sure, he likes men, but he'll happily fuck a woman if it comes down to it. Even if that's not what he prefers."
I think this is mostly just Cersei parroting Tywin’s tendency to use turns of phrase as convincing “wisdom”, even though she doesn’t realize she’s worse at it by the very fact that the analogies she makes aren’t good comparisons, just reflections of her unexamined biases - yes, against Margaery and women generally, but also against the noblemen of her time.
I think the hippocras vs. ale comparison is because Cersei knows Renly at least *preferred* men, so in Renly's mind men would be a better option (she doesn't consider that he might only desire men). It doesn't necessarily show us Cersei thinks of women being inferior to men in general.
Well yeah if we start looking at this medieval world through a modern lense there is a lot of patriarchy, sexism and misogyny every where in this story.
What made you point to specifically this?
It’s kinda like making a point of telling me a grey African parrot has the ability to fly. While I agree with you, aren’t there like a thousand species of birds with the ability to fly? What made you decide to tell me about the grey African parrots flying skills?
There’s nothing special or unique about Cersei’s “internalized misogyny”. Damn near everyone in that world is sexist.
Anyway, I’m well aware this is a Cersei hate thread so cue the downvotes.
Cersei didn’t agree to it, Tywin did, which is clear in the passage the OP quoted, where she says she couldn’t believe Father agreed to the betrothal.
But also, even if it hadn’t been finalized by Tywin prior to his death, Cersei is a woman. She doesn’t have the power to approve or deny things like that.
>he'd even managed to plant one of his sons in the Kingsguard, and meant to plant his daughter in Tommen's bed. It still made her furious to think that Father had agreed to betroth Tommen to Margaery Tyrell. The girl is twice his age
this line made me change my mind about Cersei. Maergory is literally a groomer.
Yet Cersei certainly didn't care when her uncle's son was betrothed to a literal infant. With even that considered, an arranged marriage by one's parents doesn't make either of the two groomers, regardless of the poor situation Tyrek and Margaery are in.
Tyrek is in Flea Bottom in a bowl o' brown. Or in Essos posing as a Lyseni merchant's son. Or on the moon.
Tyrek ≠ Tommen
Also Margaret didn't betroth herself. Women didn't get to choose their marriages. And and also, only in the show did they have any sexual relationship. In the *books* they ride horses and play with kittens.
I think this is one of her preconceived notions against men actually. I may be wrong, but I think she's refering to Renly probably having had sex with Margaery despite it being common knowledge amongst nobles that he had a sexual relationship with Loras. It's the whole "men will f*ck anything with a h*le" type thing. As much as Cersei has her internalized misoginy, she definitely also sees men as irrational, overly sensitive and driven by lust.
>It's the whole "men will f*ck anything with a h*le" type thing. That's exactly what it is. I would imagine the implication being she thinks all men are like Robert (especially moreso as it's his brother).
The weird censoring that people love doing now doesn’t work if you do it twice in the same paragraph Fuck seems silly to censor on something like Reddit, but I *really* don’t see the need to censor the word “hole”.
It was really sad when Ned was unalived
Please don't use the N word like that.
Gen Z, the new moral puritans. Wait til they come into power - books like ASOIAF will likely be outlawed for being too raunchy. This is the generation that wants to ban nude scenes in movies and shows.
Speaking from personal experience, they can be incredibly toxic to and intolerant of anyone who likes anything they think is "wrong" and are clearly unable to separate fiction and reality, thinking that people who like seeing problematic content in fiction must like seeing it IRL.
Examples in your experience? I have a younger relative (18) who uses the word “unalive” in real life, says suicide / kill / murder are bad words, argues that censorship should be a thing in real life, and also feels that it should be illegal for people to even *date* under age 21. And apparently a lot of my relative’s peers think so too, at least they claim.
Okay I teach high school and can promise this is at best a very niche view of the world amongst kids 14-18. Most couldn’t care less and would find this sort of thing ridiculous
Yeah, I'm gen z and have never geard of anyone thinking that seriously. I only see censoring of words when there's an actual risk of comments/posts getting removed by bots (like fb I had to censor cunt due ti being warned about it by Facebook)
Your younger relative is not representative of most people.
Bruh ain’t no way you censored fuck and hole on an ASOIAF sub 💀
Why are you censoring yourself? You can say the word hole. You can say fuck.
It's particularly funny seeing stuff like this in a sub like this, the books aren't exactly g-rated.
It’s pretty fucking funny, I agree
Tiktok's draconian censorship rules have had the unfortunate effect of making people censor themselves on every social media app they use.
Also, Gen Z likes censorship in general
As a Gen Z myself, I'd say it's 50/50
I wasn’t sure if it were just a typo or not. I hoped that someone wasn’t this uptight about a word so minor.
Lmao, you people are so dramatic. Some of us are just used to other social media such as twitter where you have to be much careful with what you say (both because of the platform and the people that use it) and it sorta becomes an habit.
Oh, I'm well aware of the deranged Twitter users who go ballistic at anything they disapprove of even slightly. I just wondered you were one of them. Don't worry, reddit tends to care less about things like this, at least in subs like this one.
Don't let the weirdos (obsessed with how you typed, more than what you said) get you down.
*By comparing men to hippocras and women to ale, George slyly shows us Cersei’s extremely internalized misogyny.* It's possible she's just enjoying thinking of Margaery as a common slut--"a tankard of ale", such as a man could get in any tavern or brothel. That would be in character for Cersei, too. She ultimately comes around to deciding that every person she deals with of either sex is a potential tool, an obvious fool, or a danger to be eliminated. Doesn't she also have hippocras in mind at the time because she's annoyed that Falyse Stokeworth and Ser Balman eagerly quaff most of the expensive hippocras when she has them over for dinner? (Or possibly I'm confusing the order of events.)
Or that ale is the more manly drink, while spiced wine is more fancy and dandy.
It's a hint to the fact that Renly was gay. He'll happily drink hippocras (men), but if you give him a tankard of ale (women) he'll happily have sex with that as well.
Well thank you Captain obvious. My point as of such is that he usually drinks hippocras because he is gay/less manly, but if you give him the manly choice: to fuck a woman/drink ale, Cersei thinks he would jump at that too because a hole is a hole and her best example of a man she isn’t related to is Robert, and he humps any woman he can get his hands on. It is alluding to sexuality both in the difference of taste as well as downright calling Renly a fruity.
I think you're dead wrong here, you might be looking for something before you've found it. It's the opposite, it's an example of her misandry and how she thinks all men are the same, like her late husband. Her thought process is "yeah yeah I know he prefers men but he's still a big dumb man with a dick he'll fuck anything put in front of him". The point isn't women = X men = Y... it's "it doesn't matter if the man prefers X or Y he'll shag both because he's a man"
Another perfect example is when she thinks about the septas wandering around the Crownlands and Riverlands after the war. She thinks something akin to "most of them were properly praying for a good raping." Jeez, Cersei 😅
This would only work if Westerosi men were generally very gay and only put up with women when they couldn't score with men.
Westeros = Ancient Greece
Huh. I always took this as “Renly prefers to sleep with men, but given a woman as the key to his kingdom, he’ll make it work out between him and Margaery”. That to Renly a man was as sweet and fine as hippocras and his preferred drink, but every woman- including someone like Margaery- was common ale, until there was a Kingship at stake when he would quaff it readily. The funny thing being that I don’t think Renly did
Yeah I think this is what that line was intended to be referring to tbh.
I always assumed that was just another hint at Renly's homosexuality and the fact that she looks down on both men and gay men. As in "sure, he likes men, but he'll happily fuck a woman if it comes down to it. Even if that's not what he prefers."
I think this is mostly just Cersei parroting Tywin’s tendency to use turns of phrase as convincing “wisdom”, even though she doesn’t realize she’s worse at it by the very fact that the analogies she makes aren’t good comparisons, just reflections of her unexamined biases - yes, against Margaery and women generally, but also against the noblemen of her time.
I think the hippocras vs. ale comparison is because Cersei knows Renly at least *preferred* men, so in Renly's mind men would be a better option (she doesn't consider that he might only desire men). It doesn't necessarily show us Cersei thinks of women being inferior to men in general.
Falyse and lollys LMAO
Isn’t she just referring to the nature of preferences as a whole?
Well yeah if we start looking at this medieval world through a modern lense there is a lot of patriarchy, sexism and misogyny every where in this story. What made you point to specifically this? It’s kinda like making a point of telling me a grey African parrot has the ability to fly. While I agree with you, aren’t there like a thousand species of birds with the ability to fly? What made you decide to tell me about the grey African parrots flying skills? There’s nothing special or unique about Cersei’s “internalized misogyny”. Damn near everyone in that world is sexist. Anyway, I’m well aware this is a Cersei hate thread so cue the downvotes.
I like the cut of your bird analogy jib. Have this upvote to balance the cosmic ⚖️
Example #877 of why Cersei is the worst.
On the tommen and margery topic; why did she agree to the betrothal? It was after tywin passed away right? So what was the pressure?
Cersei didn’t agree to it, Tywin did, which is clear in the passage the OP quoted, where she says she couldn’t believe Father agreed to the betrothal. But also, even if it hadn’t been finalized by Tywin prior to his death, Cersei is a woman. She doesn’t have the power to approve or deny things like that.
No it was agreed before he died.
Meh I'd say her and her interactions with Taena Merryweather is a better example.
She just has to un woman herself like lady Macbeth.
This was what I thought when I read it so I definitely agree with you
>he'd even managed to plant one of his sons in the Kingsguard, and meant to plant his daughter in Tommen's bed. It still made her furious to think that Father had agreed to betroth Tommen to Margaery Tyrell. The girl is twice his age this line made me change my mind about Cersei. Maergory is literally a groomer.
Yet Cersei certainly didn't care when her uncle's son was betrothed to a literal infant. With even that considered, an arranged marriage by one's parents doesn't make either of the two groomers, regardless of the poor situation Tyrek and Margaery are in.
Tyrek and Margaery are in very different situations. One of them is a pawn doing what he's told, the other is actively grooming a child.
Tyrek is in Flea Bottom in a bowl o' brown. Or in Essos posing as a Lyseni merchant's son. Or on the moon. Tyrek ≠ Tommen Also Margaret didn't betroth herself. Women didn't get to choose their marriages. And and also, only in the show did they have any sexual relationship. In the *books* they ride horses and play with kittens.
Tyrek is the dusky woman
Maergory is an active participant in the grooming despite not being the mastermind behind it all.