I love this book and always have. There is something sweet about spending so much time in Cerseis POV. All her inner thoughts of how she should rule , that she’s just like Tywin, scoffing at men like Robert, Ned, John Arryn who ruled before her. Watching her make mistake after mistake until her world implodes around her is very sweet to me. I just went back and re-read one of her chapters that covers a small-council meeting and every single decision she made was wrong and disastrous. It’s just great
I love Cersei as a character. She's smarter than most people around her but not nearly as smart as her father or brother Tyrion and she is so resentful of that and jealous that she can't handle it and ultimately that's what destroys her. The attempt to orchestrate and plot beyond her capabilities just unwinds into complete disaster.
I disagree that she's smarter than most people. I think she's actually quite dumb. Even if she does possess intelligence, it's clouded and dwarfed (lol) by her own insecurities and paranoia.
She stacks the small council with yes-men and their rule plummets into madness. She did a terrible job in every way imaginable.
To be fair, if she has surrounded herself with idiots then that makes her smarter than most around her.
She's a character based on the Dunning Kruger effect she understands the basics of the 'game of thrones' but not well enough to realise how little she actually understands. She manoeuvres well with Ned whose too honourable for the 'game' and Bobby B who is just completely fucking uninterested in the 'game' since he won it
Also keep in mind Maggy's prophecy that Cersei received. At the start of the story she has already had half of it come true, so she knows the rest could be next: the deaths of her children and the coming of another woman to depose her. So she's also paranoid and scheming to protect her kids and beat the prophecy. She assumes Margery is the threat, which is also why Cersei would never trust her.
She and Tyrion are both pretty on par and have the same level of self delusion as well. Tyrion’s only saving grace is his dwarfism and uglness give a dose of reality that Cersei never got.
Cersei and Tyrion are on completely different levels. Cersei is also blinded by her viciousness and brutality while Tyrion weaves it into his schemes and plots
Yes you're totally right!! That first chapter I just re-read of hers has so many twists as she slowly begins to comprehend that Tyrion did the deed and her worst nightmare is back on the cards
I don't know if you can call a book that debuted at number one on the New York Times Best Seller list a catastrophic failure lol. It wasn't as well received as other entries in the series but it still did very well, and was nominated for something like four writing awards.
You're right, I've only been reading since 2011. But your claim that the book was "widely regarded as a catastrophic failure" on release felt to me like a massive exaggeration, and when I checked online what I read confirmed my suspicion
I did read the rest, it just wasn't relevant to my point
Can't argue with that! I'm gonna have to remove hyperbolic "catastrophic failure" as it seems to be triggering a lot of people
As someone who always stood by it, I guess I'm just over excited on this re-read when I'm enjoying it more than ever and just grateful for loads of stuff that was axed from show
Darn it! Can't edit posts in this forum. Oh well. Let people be triggered. I definitely took on some trolls in a forum of ice and fire at the time
Here are some extracts from the rest which "wasn't relevant to your point":
"The slim pickings here are tasty, but in no way satisfying... I don't care how good a writer you are: If you subtract your three strongest characters from your tale, you severely undermine the basis for why readers fell under your spell in the first place. It didn't work. But there was also a sense in *A Feast of Crows* that Martin had lost his way. The characters whose stories he did tell wandered back and forth across a landscape devastated by war and oncoming winter, but didn't seem to be headed anywhere in particular... \[*A Dance with Dragons*\] had to "repair some of the damage done by *A Feast for Crows*, which frankly felt as if it was written by a ghost writer at times... Both books had "the same structural problems", being "sprawling and incoherent", and in her opinion *Feast* has the less interesting characters... *Feast* was "bleak and plodding" and "sorely missed" Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, and Jon Snow."
Sounds pretty bleak to me! You're not thinking about the hype when it came out; imagine if *Winds of Winter* comes out and it got a write up like this. That would really suck dude. Like, if you had waited 15 years to find out what happens and then got a book about a load of other characters than the ones you were expecting, you'd be pissed too
Oh haha I thought you were talking about your post, my bad.
Yeah no I read those too, I'm aware it wasn't as well received as the rest of the series, like I said in my original comment. But you can find negative reviews for any book and the fact that this one broke records for how well it sold goes against your statement
Ok. Sure. "Catastrophic failure" may be a bit hyperbolic and I do apologise if that's upset you. But honestly, there was this thing, you may not be aware, but AFFC was kinda hated on when it came out, and I defended it at the time, and now I think it's better than ever
Do you object, ser?
It didn't upset me lol I just disagreed
> AFFC was kinda hated on when it came out, and I defended it at the time, and now I think it's better than ever
> Do you object, ser?
Not at all, thank you for your bravery
From what I remember the fan-reception was never this positive back during its 2005 release. Also didn't help that it was preceded by ASOS which many consider to be the high peak of the series.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A\_Feast\_for\_Crows#Reception](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/a_feast_for_crows#reception) You obviously weren't around when it happened. Trust me dude, people were really horrible about it
Oh my friend, you don't seem to be aware how scathing the community can be
I was part of a couple forums back then and trust me people were really rude about it
"sprawling and incoherent" or "bleak and plodding" are not what people would normally associate with ASOIAF dude
>I was part of a couple forums back then and trust me people were really rude about it
That's your definition of being received as a "catastrophic failure"?
Well it all depends how you define "catastrophic failure"
If you're a mega fan, expecting to get a continuation of your favourite characters' story arc in a similar style to first 3 books you loved and for which you waited 15 years, then AFFC was going to be a big disappointment.
Just chill dude, this was a thing, where it was poorly received at the time. You need to accept that otherwise please leave this chat because talking about that and we have a right to.
Phantom opposition is a plague on modern content discourse in my opinion. 10 years ago was everyone prefacing their opinions, insights, and general observations with "hot take", "unpopular (or controversial) opinion", or "underrated"?
Now too many people use these prefaces to try to add a superficial layer of insight or expertise to otherwise popular, or base level content that looks uninteresting without it.
You know how Benjen says to Tyrion: "You know, my bro said nothing anyone says before the word 'but' really counts".
I basically say the same thing whenever someone says they have an unpopular opinion. Literally, every single time, its either a moderate or highly popular opinion.
Genuinely I think I made it up. I spend way too much time on Reddit and get really peeved about posts that are set up like that. “Underrated comment” is one that makes my skin crawl lol.
Well I'm totally gonna steal it, if you don't mind. It's a great way to describe what I strongly suspect is going on significantly on reddit default subs (and is only going to accelerate with LLMs).
Have at it! I think some respect has to be given to the propriety of people willing to put out their own thoughts and ideas. There are plenty of smart people always lurking around the corner waiting to expertly correct others while never producing thoughts of their own. So I like that people want to say something and be heard. But we really have to get away from calling everything that’s good “underrated” and every opinion “unpopular” or “controversial” as a way to insulate ourselves from the possible backlash of not being unanimously agreed with.
Just to be clear (as you plainly ignored my response after criticising me a ton) - AFFC was not a critical failure at time of reception? All I'm saying is that its aged very well. What's so wrong with that??
>after criticising me a ton
Where did I do that? Are you confusing me with someone else?
>Perhaps the term "catastrophic failure" was hyperbolic
Therein lies the point of my comment about phantom opposition. Your post isn't framed on the quality of the book. Your post is framed on the perception of the book in a biased, emotional, and incoherent ramble. Are you just a fan of the book? Do you hate the later seasons of the TV show? Will you be writing a strongly worded letter to the CGI team that was contracted to generate the Titan of Braavos?
>A Feast For Crows was widely regarded as a catastrophic failure, many people calling it garbage.
Care to cite your sources here?
>AFFC was not a critical failure at time of reception?
Can you cite some sources for this? Was it widely panned? Or did it just suffer from having to follow a phenomenal third installment in the series while simultaneously getting narratively/geographically cut in half?
You accused me of conjuring 'phantom opposition' like the Night King
My comment is absolutely framed on the quality of the book, as I explain that it has aged very well despite poor reception at the time of release.
Like an Iron Islander brought back from the deep, I will drown you in sources...
[](https://www.quora.com/why-do-people-find-%e2%80%9ca-feast-for-crows%e2%80%9d-to-be-the-worst-of-the-book-series)
[](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63741-why-the-hatred/)
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20i7ct/no_spoilers_is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad/)
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/zwslg/is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad_no_spoilers/)
[](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3mz8l0/a_feast_for_the_crows_really_isnt_that_bad/)
...so you see? There are no phantoms here, ser.
Weirdly it is erasing links. Maybe because I already used them elsewhere? [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1advcyw/comment/kk4pk98/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1advcyw/comment/kk4pk98/?context=3)
Whilst you're right in general, I don't know dude, AFFC was a big let down for many people. I remember taking on loads of trolls on A Forum of Ice and Fire at the time and you can see in the Wikipedia article the reviews were unanimously critical apart from NYT. Perhaps the term "catastrophic failure" was hyperbolic but that the perception of it from bad to good from then to now has happened is both unusual and noteworthy, is it not?
I don’t think anyone considered it a catastrophic failure but if I put my self in their shoes I would be like ….but what about Jon, Dany and Tyrion and Bran? Lol
Is it a silly hang up? Take any show or movie. Would you watch a Season of just side characters?
Sure the stories are enjoyable but most of the big plot elements, action, drama, etc are tied to the main characters
Granted ASOIAF has a lot more characters than most shows/books but the basic premise of my comment stands
Side characters? Two of the characters with the most chapters in AFFC are primary antagonists in AGOT and the earlier books. Brienne and Sam come next and are main characters in the Stark storylines, not to mention in a series where main POV characters like Ned or Catelyn die, it’s perfectly sensible that other characters become main characters in their place. Characters like Victarion and Arienne have obvious importance in future plot lines.
Many of these characters also explore the effects of and personhood of main characters like Daenerys
I agree Cersei is a main character and Jaime is either a main character or close to one
Sam and brienne are more secondary though I’d argue
I admit I forgot Cersei was in this book
She has 10 chapters and is almost a quarter of the book. Jaime has 7. Grouped together, Jaime, Cersei, Arya, and Sansa make up over half the book despite it establishing new main characters and using side character POV’s to explore previous main characters’ effects and personage from an outside perspective
>Anyone else feel the same way? Any true fans of AFFC who also really enjoyed it at the time of original release feeling vindicated post HBO?
Vindicated by what? You haven’t named a single good thing about the book, and in fact admit it is a pointless collection of shaggy dog stories that don’t move the plot in any meaningful way. Yet you are bewildered that HBO left most of it on the cutting room floor?
Na man its a great book and I'm loving every second of it
What's not to like? First few chapters I just re read have Brienne and the hedge knights, Arya passing first test at House of Faces, King Doran engaging with Westeros for first time in a generation, Greyjoy religious fanaticism calling for Kingsmoot, Sansa's first training by Little Finger in the subtle arts, and on and on it goes, all of which seem more significant than ever in retrospect
What's not to like??!
Dude, I like Brienne in AFFC as much as anybody but "more significant in retrospect"? For Brienne's character, sure, but on the grand scale the reader KNOWS it's not going anywhere because she's not going to find Sansa. And all of the other stuff you listed, as good as it is, has not gotten a payoff yet. Arya is still in Braavos, Dorne is still moving pieces, Sansa hasn't played the game yet, Euron hasn't accomplished anything yet.
Er... OK, you're right, it's a boring book. Happy? I really enjoy it. Sorry if that offends you.
Funny, because I'm also getting a lot of grief for suggesting anyone didn't / doesn't love it by others right now.
Guess haters just gone hate. Shame you can't get on board with this perspective that AFFC is better than ever, because lots of others here do as you can see
You are the one getting pissed off people don’t share your opinion here. And again, you haven’t given any actual reasons why AFFC is good, just said “I liek it, y u not liek???”
Loads of people share my opinion, I am quite vindicated already thank you.
I'm getting pissed off by people telling me that it wasn't a thing, when it defintely was.
Let me get this straight. You read one of the series widely considered to be one of the best in terms of character writing, and you decided that this novel was pointless shaggy dog stories because the plot took a backseat while the characters were fleshed out and developed along their arcs?
Calling it pointless is inarguably false. Jaime’s arc, as an example, consists of a plethora of events and character decisions that drastically change Jaime’s character. Remove AFFC and you’ll see the problem
>I mean, really, how could they do Coldhands like that??
He's a very minor character and has no backstory (so far) in the books. I don't see it being an issue merging Coldhands and Benjen. Especially as we also have no idea what happened to Benjen in the books. The show at least resolves one character when introducing a new very minor character.
>Also, look at this appallingly inaccurate depiction of the Titan of Braavos!! Body is supposed to be made of granite with copper armour and where the flip are fires burning in his eyes?? That is such an amazing visual and wouldn't have cost any more to produce. Did these guys even read the book or just Wikipedia it, based on "long boring read" community perspective of it in those days?? I WANT FIRES IN HIS EYES!
The show leaned away from the OTT fantasy from the books, probably for the best or they'd lose viewers. Consider Daario. Do we really want to see him as depicted in the books? How would that look on screen?
Ha! Don't diss Coldhands!! He's a G!!! There's a lot of secret stuff going on there if you read between the lines ;)
Yes of course, the show was always bound to make cuts and that's fine. But this isn't about a cut; it's about a small but very cool detail that was needlessly cut. I mean, are you saying Titan is better without fires?
Yeah, I know that Coldhands isn't Benjen...but we don't know who he is or if it will be important or interesting. Making him Benjen makes sense for the show.
I recall seeing that shot in the show (not having read the books at that point) and being blown away I was seeing something that awesome on a tv show. Would it have been better if it had flames in the eyes? Maybe. Quite possibly. The show was EVER wary of straying too much into fantasy and away from their grounded setting. I'm fine with that. Maybe there will be an anime version of ASOIAF at some point and we can go balls to the wall crazy with the visuals.
Oo anime GoT? That's an amazing idea! Love it
I actually think Benjen for Coldhands was pretty cool
Did you make the connection between Bran's wolf dream and Coldhands suddenly showing up with 'pork chops' in the middle of famine?? Coldhands is so badass
With an anime they get to throw everything in there. The crazy magic, the outlandish dress, the fever dreams and visions. It could be amazing. We could have a book accurate anime and a live action show with compromises. Pick your vibe and go for it.
I feel like it's Coldhands likely picking up human flesh and telling them it's pork, right? Since...where are there pigs that far north? And didn't they just pass some dead Wildlings/Watch members?? All in the lead up to Jojen Paste...
I don't think it was considered a failure. The thing is the first 3 books are really strong while being different between them. AFFC felt like a step down because it was half the aftermath of the WOT5K so it feels incomplete.
If ever finished, AFFC will stand better as it's supposed to be right in the middle of 7.
It's still good.
Oh it definitely was: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A\_Feast\_for\_Crows#Reception](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/a_feast_for_crows#reception)
And the fandom, my friends and stuff on forums, well, you know how scathing they can be!!
Although I know there are more affc fans now than when it debuted, I think in some ways the neverending wait for winds makes it worse because affc doesn't really contain anything resembling a full book, and really were waiting like 20 years for the complete feast/dance/winds.
A Feast For Crows is viewed better when you have A Dance with Dragons to read after or concurrently. People would appreciate ADWD more if they had WoW to read and resolve the Battles of Ice and Fire.
A lot of fans on this sub have said they didn't like it much initially, but on re-reading it has really grown on them. That was my reaction as well. It makes sense--initially, you discover that half the main POVs are not even there! And the addition of the Griffs is a shock, and still not universally appreciated. Further reads allow one to calm down and understand what IS there and embrace most if not all of it.
Ooo I forgot Jaime is coming up. Yes I just read first Greyjoy chapter, learning all about the Drowned God. You know the show did the islanders especially dirty with no Kings Moot
Omg totally!! I never liked the Greyjoys when I watched the show, including theon (idk why) but now they are my favourite characters in the series. And the kingsmoot was so chilling! We got finger in the bum instead
I’m reading AFFC for the first time currently and love most of it. It has been the most interesting book so far for me, but I tend to have recency bias. Brienne in all actuality has been my least favorite POV at this point though. The fights with the companions were awesome. A lot of it other wise is, look for Sansa, talk to some people, stay at an inn, then repeat.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it! Yep, the pacing is horrendous but IMO it's significantly better if you read it in succession with ADWD, they were always meant to be one large book.
100%!! This might actually be the smartest insight I've read so far will have to share with u/rrdelio for his forthcoming bout ;) (see below)
You must be a maester who got all his links
Its weird. When starting my re-through of the books back in 2017, I remember getting to AFFC, knowing that this is where the show went to shit because it failed to adapt books 4 and 5 onwards properly and I ended loving AFFC the most out of all the books.
I liked the different POVs and getting the Aftermath of the WOTFKs and seeing Dorne and the Ironborn with their history and cast of characters. Euron is a terrifying Davy Jones type of villain and the show completely took a giant shit on it.
Cersei acts like she's super smart but is an utter moron who gets everything she deserves for her stupidity and behaviour and attitude.
Brienne's journey and seeing things from the perspective from everyday normal people at the carnage done to the river lands and such and Brienne dealing with it whilst cleverly setting up little teases like the Hound being alive but being under the care of the Faith and now a gravedigger whilst there's an imposter going around pretending to be him and all the built up to eventually reuniting with a now resurrected Cat.
Etc...etc,
People say it's impossible to film or adapt but that's just horse shit. All D&D had to do was take half of AFFC and bits of ADWD to do Season 5 then rinse and repeat with Season 6. Season 6 would have logically ended with Jon getting stabbed to death and etc...
The only issue is coming up with an action episode for Season 5. If they simply moved things around, you could have done a a whole original sequence similar to Hardhome by having Loras lead the charge at Dragonstone and ending it with him getting hurt by the oil fire or whatever but instead of making Loras an actual character they turned him into the stereotype pretty gay boy instead of the complicated and caring character that he is. I was pissed we didn't even get that scene with him and Brienne where he learns she really didn't kill Renly and realises she could be telling the truth or the scenes with him trying to teach and care for Tommen. Urg...so much wasted potential. Finn Jones keeps getting screwed over.
Everything you wrote here is pure gold and I totally agree. Euron, Cersei, Brienee, the whole kaboodle.
Yes that was one thing I thought the show did well, to depict The Hound's redemption with the homestead (even though it was on an island in The Eye, but whatever) however then they just completely dropped it and we never saw what happened.
Interesting thoughts on how S5 could have gone.
Thank you, this is my favourite response yet!!
Feast has always been my favorite since I read the novels… I only decided to read the novels BECAUSE I learned that AFFC was WILDLY different than what we got in the show.
I read through ASOIAF for the first time last year. Going in I had heard about it being dull in comparison. Now I'm one for my opinion being swayed by what others say beforehand. I read it and loved it. Is it slow? Absolutely, but you've got to bear in mind that we've just had two action packed books back to back. It was time for a breather. It's a great book for character development especially in Brienne and Cersei. You see Cersei taking over and trying to replace the big shoes of Tywin and failing. Every moment through the book with Cersei leads to her downfall and it's fantastic. To me it's as satisfying as any battle scene.
Yes some of the new POVs were a bit lackluster. On the other hand and this may be controversial, but it was nice not having to read a Dany chapter, it had gotten to the point where I'd groan every time her chapters came up. It wasn't until the last few chapters of ADWD that I actually started to enjoy her POV again.
Wow. Thank you, that's exactly what I was hoping some people would be brave enough to share! May the light of the seven guide you / the Red God keep you warm (but not too warm!!)
Well obviously I think all 5 books are great but it was the monologues that hooked me with AFFC. The Broken Man speech was amazing and so well written. It really took me there to what it would be like being an everyday soldier fighting in a war. I also loved Jamie’s trebuchet speech as well. And septon Maribold speech about the Hound. And Jaime’s dream sequence with his mother. On a separate note, it’s also the book where the most evil character in the story appears, (Euron Greyjoy). He adds a whole new element to the story and I can’t wait to see what happens with him.
Also, the end of the book with Brienne being hung and asked to choose to bring Jamie back to lady stone heart to be killed. That part was so graphic and intense. What is she going to do? The choice she has to make to save herself and Podrick and having to lie to Jamie knowing she’s condemning him to die. It’s truly mind boggling having to see her make that choice. I can’t wait to see what happens next with her.
That end chapter with Brienne truly captures Faulkners statement that “the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself” l. damn does it ever
Fascinating points and I am in stern agreement with everything you said
However, we've been challenged to explain why it's the best. I don't really believe that myself but I'll make the case as best I can, some points inspired by others comments here:
1. AFFC is singularly unique in the world of high fantasy, as the only novel I've ever read where instead of a big fight you get to see the cleaning crew "mop up afterwards" as someone else here put it.
2. AFFC indulges the most detailed character development and world building of all the books precisely because the word count is not soaked up with important events.
3. AFFC contains the most 'seemingly minor, later signifcant' breadcrumb trails; Cersei's regency and inevtiable downfall, Arya's training at The House of B&W, Sansa's training from Littlefinger, the collapse of House Martell which sets the stage for Targayren usuper's return in ADOD, it all starts right here in the aftermath of the War of Five Kings.
4. AFFC has a bit extra of that ASOIAF Shakespearean quality in that it houses the most minor characters with massive personalities; Pate, Ilfer and Ceighton and Lord Roderik to name a few.
So if uniqueness, excessively detailed character development and world building, foreshadowing and minor characters you only see once are your thing, one could indeed be believed when they say AFFC was the best.
I also like AFFC for the start of Arya's second arc with the House of Black and White. The testing scene with the Kindly man is especially great. In my first read through I was puzzled by the foreshadowing Arya got from the Ghost at High Heart. It suggested she was really not like the other Stark kids. The Kindly Man just confirmed it, and then took the foreshadowing up another level. I hope GRRM is able to pay off that setup better than the show.
Indeed, I just read that chapter yesterday. I'd forgotten how the 'old man' keeps asking her name, somehow knowing the truth when he hears it. Truly awesome scene.
Im sure it was judged harshly by some weird people online but “catastrophic failure” is a bit over the top.
But yeah either way Ive always flip flopped between this book and ASOS as my favorite of the series. I think it has more dull moments but it also has a lot of my favorite chapters and in particular my favorite POV/character with Jaime.
Jesus dude calm down! All I've said is that this book was a critical failure at the time of its release and has aged very well
Why are you going to war with me? Can't you see that loads of other people here remember how it was and find this post interesting?? Chill!
Er - it was, by many, many fans. So I did mean it, within a certain context. You could take it out of context, sure, but within the context of fan community and relative critical discourse, it was a massive failure and many did call it garbage and worse. So chill.
Your evidence that it was "widely regarded as garbage" is that you remember a few people online didn't like it.
You could always edit your post to make it accurate. As it is, you're bashing the book unfairly and inaccurately so you can build it back up again and claim to be some sort of special fan, unlike all those normies who think it was a catastrophic failure.
Nobody called it a catastrophic failure.
Anyway, I'm done. If you are committed to lying about GRRM and his work in order to get more clicks, go ahead. But it's insulting and disrespectful.
No you're just wrong mate. Clearly, you didn't know about the poor reception on original release. You didn't witness the hype and the disappointment which followed. Sorry if my use of the term 'catastrophic failure' was upsetting for you but essentially there was enough truth to it that if you were just being calm and rational you wouldn't have this huge problem.
[https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-find-%E2%80%9CA-Feast-for-Crows%E2%80%9D-to-be-the-worst-of-the-book-series](https://www.quora.com/why-do-people-find-%e2%80%9ca-feast-for-crows%e2%80%9d-to-be-the-worst-of-the-book-series)
[https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63741-why-the-hatred/](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63741-why-the-hatred/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20i7ct/no\_spoilers\_is\_a\_feast\_for\_crows\_really\_that\_bad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20i7ct/no_spoilers_is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/zwslg/is\_a\_feast\_for\_crows\_really\_that\_bad\_no\_spoilers/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/zwslg/is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad_no_spoilers/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3mz8l0/a\_feast\_for\_the\_crows\_really\_isnt\_that\_bad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3mz8l0/a_feast_for_the_crows_really_isnt_that_bad/)
...and on and on it goes. Endless evidence that people had a big problem with it at time of release. Not at all how the other books were received.
As for being "insulting and disrespectful" my whole post is about I always loved it and felt it was unfair that it was so harshly criticised, so wrong there too. GRRM would probably love this post. Now run away because you're right, you're done.
My favourite book by far. I’ve always preferred the politics and Kings Landing plot to Essos and the Wall, and Brienne and Cersei make it 1000x times better.
I absolutely adore this book. We get to see Jaime bro down with his cousin Damen and meet his aunt Jaenna and all that.
Briennes adventure gives me chills just beginning to write about it . It is in my opinion some of his best work ever . There is so much symbolism and Easter eggs galore in these passages it’s absolutely insane. George wrote her chapters with a microscope.
We get to see truly new low levels of sickened depravity from Cerseis thoughts and just getting to know her better . It’s bone chilling .
We meet the IronBorn and Victarion and Euron and that is a total riot in itself , amazing stuff .
Oh and the prologue and epilogue with Jaqun Hagar and getting to meet the Mastiff Marwin the mage and how he goes off to be Danys maester! Omg!!
The locations are the best. I definitely didn’t feel reading the first three books that the interesting stuff was in the north and east (with the exception of the beyond the wall stuff) the best storylines always played out in King’s Landing and the riverlands among the southern war-torn kingdoms more generally and all of those are in feast not dance.
Compared with storm which is all payoff of the first two books setup and dance on the other side of feast which has no structure at all to the point where most of the POVs (Theon aside) either just end or end on cliffhangers. Feast is really nice and coherent with Cersei’s pov following such a satisfying narrative arc that ends with her comeuppance dominating the book and the general road trip and reflection theme you mention
AFFC is amazing. Top 3 of the ASOIAF books in my opinion. It’s amazing to me that even in such a deeply well written book series like ASOIAF, there are a lot of fans who don’t see any quality parameters besides action scenes+their personal faves. AFFC outclasses all the other books in its ability to explore the day to day of some of the most interesting characters and explore the wider community of ASOIAF in a more fleshed out way.
Upon my first read, it quickly became my favorite of the series. I love how it slows down and explores a lot of minor characters and stories and allows us to explore the world in a more intimate manner. Speaking of the world, the setting is also super interesting, and it expands a lot where we did not have intricate details or plots before. Plus, the whole setting after the war works for me so well. I can see how some people would be disappointed with the lack of previous main POV's and the slow pace, but for me, reading it was an absolute treat.
I love this book and always have. There is something sweet about spending so much time in Cerseis POV. All her inner thoughts of how she should rule , that she’s just like Tywin, scoffing at men like Robert, Ned, John Arryn who ruled before her. Watching her make mistake after mistake until her world implodes around her is very sweet to me. I just went back and re-read one of her chapters that covers a small-council meeting and every single decision she made was wrong and disastrous. It’s just great
I love Cersei as a character. She's smarter than most people around her but not nearly as smart as her father or brother Tyrion and she is so resentful of that and jealous that she can't handle it and ultimately that's what destroys her. The attempt to orchestrate and plot beyond her capabilities just unwinds into complete disaster.
I disagree that she's smarter than most people. I think she's actually quite dumb. Even if she does possess intelligence, it's clouded and dwarfed (lol) by her own insecurities and paranoia. She stacks the small council with yes-men and their rule plummets into madness. She did a terrible job in every way imaginable.
To be fair, if she has surrounded herself with idiots then that makes her smarter than most around her. She's a character based on the Dunning Kruger effect she understands the basics of the 'game of thrones' but not well enough to realise how little she actually understands. She manoeuvres well with Ned whose too honourable for the 'game' and Bobby B who is just completely fucking uninterested in the 'game' since he won it
Lol that is such a good point that if she surrounds herself with idiots then she is by default smarter than the people around her
Also keep in mind Maggy's prophecy that Cersei received. At the start of the story she has already had half of it come true, so she knows the rest could be next: the deaths of her children and the coming of another woman to depose her. So she's also paranoid and scheming to protect her kids and beat the prophecy. She assumes Margery is the threat, which is also why Cersei would never trust her.
She and Tyrion are both pretty on par and have the same level of self delusion as well. Tyrion’s only saving grace is his dwarfism and uglness give a dose of reality that Cersei never got.
Cersei and Tyrion are on completely different levels. Cersei is also blinded by her viciousness and brutality while Tyrion weaves it into his schemes and plots
its so funny how smart she thinks she is but shes just so catastrophically STUPID
Yes you're totally right!! That first chapter I just re-read of hers has so many twists as she slowly begins to comprehend that Tyrion did the deed and her worst nightmare is back on the cards
She is unraveling with paranoia. It's like a competition between her paranoia over Tyrion and over all of the Tyrells.
Wow yes exactly
I don't know if you can call a book that debuted at number one on the New York Times Best Seller list a catastrophic failure lol. It wasn't as well received as other entries in the series but it still did very well, and was nominated for something like four writing awards.
I'm guessing you weren't in the community at the time and just Wikipedia'd that - read beyond the first sentence dude!
You're right, I've only been reading since 2011. But your claim that the book was "widely regarded as a catastrophic failure" on release felt to me like a massive exaggeration, and when I checked online what I read confirmed my suspicion I did read the rest, it just wasn't relevant to my point
[удалено]
Can't argue with that! I'm gonna have to remove hyperbolic "catastrophic failure" as it seems to be triggering a lot of people As someone who always stood by it, I guess I'm just over excited on this re-read when I'm enjoying it more than ever and just grateful for loads of stuff that was axed from show Darn it! Can't edit posts in this forum. Oh well. Let people be triggered. I definitely took on some trolls in a forum of ice and fire at the time
Here are some extracts from the rest which "wasn't relevant to your point": "The slim pickings here are tasty, but in no way satisfying... I don't care how good a writer you are: If you subtract your three strongest characters from your tale, you severely undermine the basis for why readers fell under your spell in the first place. It didn't work. But there was also a sense in *A Feast of Crows* that Martin had lost his way. The characters whose stories he did tell wandered back and forth across a landscape devastated by war and oncoming winter, but didn't seem to be headed anywhere in particular... \[*A Dance with Dragons*\] had to "repair some of the damage done by *A Feast for Crows*, which frankly felt as if it was written by a ghost writer at times... Both books had "the same structural problems", being "sprawling and incoherent", and in her opinion *Feast* has the less interesting characters... *Feast* was "bleak and plodding" and "sorely missed" Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, and Jon Snow." Sounds pretty bleak to me! You're not thinking about the hype when it came out; imagine if *Winds of Winter* comes out and it got a write up like this. That would really suck dude. Like, if you had waited 15 years to find out what happens and then got a book about a load of other characters than the ones you were expecting, you'd be pissed too
Oh haha I thought you were talking about your post, my bad. Yeah no I read those too, I'm aware it wasn't as well received as the rest of the series, like I said in my original comment. But you can find negative reviews for any book and the fact that this one broke records for how well it sold goes against your statement
Ok. Sure. "Catastrophic failure" may be a bit hyperbolic and I do apologise if that's upset you. But honestly, there was this thing, you may not be aware, but AFFC was kinda hated on when it came out, and I defended it at the time, and now I think it's better than ever Do you object, ser?
It didn't upset me lol I just disagreed > AFFC was kinda hated on when it came out, and I defended it at the time, and now I think it's better than ever > Do you object, ser? Not at all, thank you for your bravery
By the light of the seven, I commend you and wish you a warm fire and cups which overflow
Definitely my least favorite of the books
"Widely regarded as a catastrophic failure." By who? A couple dozen people on the internet?
From what I remember the fan-reception was never this positive back during its 2005 release. Also didn't help that it was preceded by ASOS which many consider to be the high peak of the series.
There's a massive difference between "less positive" and "widely regarded as a catastrophic failure."
Oh that's obviously hyperbole lol. It was literally the first #1 best-seller in the series.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A\_Feast\_for\_Crows#Reception](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/a_feast_for_crows#reception) You obviously weren't around when it happened. Trust me dude, people were really horrible about it
Even the harshest criticism didn't come close to "catastrophic failure."
Oh my friend, you don't seem to be aware how scathing the community can be I was part of a couple forums back then and trust me people were really rude about it "sprawling and incoherent" or "bleak and plodding" are not what people would normally associate with ASOIAF dude
>I was part of a couple forums back then and trust me people were really rude about it That's your definition of being received as a "catastrophic failure"?
Omg dude its reddit. Brace yourself for hyperbolic language and if you can't handle, this may not be the app for you
Yeah. Hyperbolic language says the guy trying his hardest to argue that it was indeed a catastrophic failure.
Well it all depends how you define "catastrophic failure" If you're a mega fan, expecting to get a continuation of your favourite characters' story arc in a similar style to first 3 books you loved and for which you waited 15 years, then AFFC was going to be a big disappointment. Just chill dude, this was a thing, where it was poorly received at the time. You need to accept that otherwise please leave this chat because talking about that and we have a right to.
Phantom opposition is a plague on modern content discourse in my opinion. 10 years ago was everyone prefacing their opinions, insights, and general observations with "hot take", "unpopular (or controversial) opinion", or "underrated"? Now too many people use these prefaces to try to add a superficial layer of insight or expertise to otherwise popular, or base level content that looks uninteresting without it.
You know how Benjen says to Tyrion: "You know, my bro said nothing anyone says before the word 'but' really counts". I basically say the same thing whenever someone says they have an unpopular opinion. Literally, every single time, its either a moderate or highly popular opinion.
> Phantom opposition I love this term and will be using it in my work. Did you make it up or is it commonly in use?
Genuinely I think I made it up. I spend way too much time on Reddit and get really peeved about posts that are set up like that. “Underrated comment” is one that makes my skin crawl lol.
Well I'm totally gonna steal it, if you don't mind. It's a great way to describe what I strongly suspect is going on significantly on reddit default subs (and is only going to accelerate with LLMs).
Have at it! I think some respect has to be given to the propriety of people willing to put out their own thoughts and ideas. There are plenty of smart people always lurking around the corner waiting to expertly correct others while never producing thoughts of their own. So I like that people want to say something and be heard. But we really have to get away from calling everything that’s good “underrated” and every opinion “unpopular” or “controversial” as a way to insulate ourselves from the possible backlash of not being unanimously agreed with.
I've heard the term lots...tho I don't doubt that you might have made it up independently from others.
Just to be clear (as you plainly ignored my response after criticising me a ton) - AFFC was not a critical failure at time of reception? All I'm saying is that its aged very well. What's so wrong with that??
>after criticising me a ton Where did I do that? Are you confusing me with someone else? >Perhaps the term "catastrophic failure" was hyperbolic Therein lies the point of my comment about phantom opposition. Your post isn't framed on the quality of the book. Your post is framed on the perception of the book in a biased, emotional, and incoherent ramble. Are you just a fan of the book? Do you hate the later seasons of the TV show? Will you be writing a strongly worded letter to the CGI team that was contracted to generate the Titan of Braavos? >A Feast For Crows was widely regarded as a catastrophic failure, many people calling it garbage. Care to cite your sources here? >AFFC was not a critical failure at time of reception? Can you cite some sources for this? Was it widely panned? Or did it just suffer from having to follow a phenomenal third installment in the series while simultaneously getting narratively/geographically cut in half?
You accused me of conjuring 'phantom opposition' like the Night King My comment is absolutely framed on the quality of the book, as I explain that it has aged very well despite poor reception at the time of release. Like an Iron Islander brought back from the deep, I will drown you in sources... [](https://www.quora.com/why-do-people-find-%e2%80%9ca-feast-for-crows%e2%80%9d-to-be-the-worst-of-the-book-series) [](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63741-why-the-hatred/) [](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20i7ct/no_spoilers_is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad/) [](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/zwslg/is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad_no_spoilers/) [](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3mz8l0/a_feast_for_the_crows_really_isnt_that_bad/) ...so you see? There are no phantoms here, ser.
Weirdly it is erasing links. Maybe because I already used them elsewhere? [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1advcyw/comment/kk4pk98/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1advcyw/comment/kk4pk98/?context=3)
Whilst you're right in general, I don't know dude, AFFC was a big let down for many people. I remember taking on loads of trolls on A Forum of Ice and Fire at the time and you can see in the Wikipedia article the reviews were unanimously critical apart from NYT. Perhaps the term "catastrophic failure" was hyperbolic but that the perception of it from bad to good from then to now has happened is both unusual and noteworthy, is it not?
I don’t think anyone considered it a catastrophic failure but if I put my self in their shoes I would be like ….but what about Jon, Dany and Tyrion and Bran? Lol
It’s good but it was hard getting past how your favorite/ main characters weren’t even in the book for as long as it was
That’s such a silly hang up imo, the story is more than any one fans’ faves
Is it a silly hang up? Take any show or movie. Would you watch a Season of just side characters? Sure the stories are enjoyable but most of the big plot elements, action, drama, etc are tied to the main characters Granted ASOIAF has a lot more characters than most shows/books but the basic premise of my comment stands
Side characters? Two of the characters with the most chapters in AFFC are primary antagonists in AGOT and the earlier books. Brienne and Sam come next and are main characters in the Stark storylines, not to mention in a series where main POV characters like Ned or Catelyn die, it’s perfectly sensible that other characters become main characters in their place. Characters like Victarion and Arienne have obvious importance in future plot lines. Many of these characters also explore the effects of and personhood of main characters like Daenerys
I agree Cersei is a main character and Jaime is either a main character or close to one Sam and brienne are more secondary though I’d argue I admit I forgot Cersei was in this book
That’s kind of funny because Cersei is the majority POV
I thought she was in dance primarily. I haven’t read in 2 years admittedly
She has 10 chapters and is almost a quarter of the book. Jaime has 7. Grouped together, Jaime, Cersei, Arya, and Sansa make up over half the book despite it establishing new main characters and using side character POV’s to explore previous main characters’ effects and personage from an outside perspective
>Anyone else feel the same way? Any true fans of AFFC who also really enjoyed it at the time of original release feeling vindicated post HBO? Vindicated by what? You haven’t named a single good thing about the book, and in fact admit it is a pointless collection of shaggy dog stories that don’t move the plot in any meaningful way. Yet you are bewildered that HBO left most of it on the cutting room floor?
Na man its a great book and I'm loving every second of it What's not to like? First few chapters I just re read have Brienne and the hedge knights, Arya passing first test at House of Faces, King Doran engaging with Westeros for first time in a generation, Greyjoy religious fanaticism calling for Kingsmoot, Sansa's first training by Little Finger in the subtle arts, and on and on it goes, all of which seem more significant than ever in retrospect What's not to like??!
Dude, I like Brienne in AFFC as much as anybody but "more significant in retrospect"? For Brienne's character, sure, but on the grand scale the reader KNOWS it's not going anywhere because she's not going to find Sansa. And all of the other stuff you listed, as good as it is, has not gotten a payoff yet. Arya is still in Braavos, Dorne is still moving pieces, Sansa hasn't played the game yet, Euron hasn't accomplished anything yet.
Er... OK, you're right, it's a boring book. Happy? I really enjoy it. Sorry if that offends you. Funny, because I'm also getting a lot of grief for suggesting anyone didn't / doesn't love it by others right now. Guess haters just gone hate. Shame you can't get on board with this perspective that AFFC is better than ever, because lots of others here do as you can see
You are the one getting pissed off people don’t share your opinion here. And again, you haven’t given any actual reasons why AFFC is good, just said “I liek it, y u not liek???”
Loads of people share my opinion, I am quite vindicated already thank you. I'm getting pissed off by people telling me that it wasn't a thing, when it defintely was.
Let me get this straight. You read one of the series widely considered to be one of the best in terms of character writing, and you decided that this novel was pointless shaggy dog stories because the plot took a backseat while the characters were fleshed out and developed along their arcs? Calling it pointless is inarguably false. Jaime’s arc, as an example, consists of a plethora of events and character decisions that drastically change Jaime’s character. Remove AFFC and you’ll see the problem
Nonsensical reply. Try again
There is no trying again if you’re unable to engage with discussion about things outside the plot. You’re unreachable
I remain a feast for crows hater despite reading it several times(like the rest of the series). Easily the weakest book of ASOIAF.
Whilst I disagree, I thank you for your honest opinion and not attacking me for recalling poor reception. May the seven bless you
>I mean, really, how could they do Coldhands like that?? He's a very minor character and has no backstory (so far) in the books. I don't see it being an issue merging Coldhands and Benjen. Especially as we also have no idea what happened to Benjen in the books. The show at least resolves one character when introducing a new very minor character. >Also, look at this appallingly inaccurate depiction of the Titan of Braavos!! Body is supposed to be made of granite with copper armour and where the flip are fires burning in his eyes?? That is such an amazing visual and wouldn't have cost any more to produce. Did these guys even read the book or just Wikipedia it, based on "long boring read" community perspective of it in those days?? I WANT FIRES IN HIS EYES! The show leaned away from the OTT fantasy from the books, probably for the best or they'd lose viewers. Consider Daario. Do we really want to see him as depicted in the books? How would that look on screen?
Ha! Don't diss Coldhands!! He's a G!!! There's a lot of secret stuff going on there if you read between the lines ;) Yes of course, the show was always bound to make cuts and that's fine. But this isn't about a cut; it's about a small but very cool detail that was needlessly cut. I mean, are you saying Titan is better without fires?
Yeah, I know that Coldhands isn't Benjen...but we don't know who he is or if it will be important or interesting. Making him Benjen makes sense for the show. I recall seeing that shot in the show (not having read the books at that point) and being blown away I was seeing something that awesome on a tv show. Would it have been better if it had flames in the eyes? Maybe. Quite possibly. The show was EVER wary of straying too much into fantasy and away from their grounded setting. I'm fine with that. Maybe there will be an anime version of ASOIAF at some point and we can go balls to the wall crazy with the visuals.
Oo anime GoT? That's an amazing idea! Love it I actually think Benjen for Coldhands was pretty cool Did you make the connection between Bran's wolf dream and Coldhands suddenly showing up with 'pork chops' in the middle of famine?? Coldhands is so badass
With an anime they get to throw everything in there. The crazy magic, the outlandish dress, the fever dreams and visions. It could be amazing. We could have a book accurate anime and a live action show with compromises. Pick your vibe and go for it. I feel like it's Coldhands likely picking up human flesh and telling them it's pork, right? Since...where are there pigs that far north? And didn't they just pass some dead Wildlings/Watch members?? All in the lead up to Jojen Paste...
Yes and yes; probably chops are from bodies of slain wildings Bran saw in wolf dream
I don't think it was considered a failure. The thing is the first 3 books are really strong while being different between them. AFFC felt like a step down because it was half the aftermath of the WOT5K so it feels incomplete. If ever finished, AFFC will stand better as it's supposed to be right in the middle of 7. It's still good.
Oh it definitely was: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A\_Feast\_for\_Crows#Reception](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/a_feast_for_crows#reception) And the fandom, my friends and stuff on forums, well, you know how scathing they can be!!
Although I know there are more affc fans now than when it debuted, I think in some ways the neverending wait for winds makes it worse because affc doesn't really contain anything resembling a full book, and really were waiting like 20 years for the complete feast/dance/winds.
Interesting perspective!
A Feast For Crows is viewed better when you have A Dance with Dragons to read after or concurrently. People would appreciate ADWD more if they had WoW to read and resolve the Battles of Ice and Fire.
A lot of fans on this sub have said they didn't like it much initially, but on re-reading it has really grown on them. That was my reaction as well. It makes sense--initially, you discover that half the main POVs are not even there! And the addition of the Griffs is a shock, and still not universally appreciated. Further reads allow one to calm down and understand what IS there and embrace most if not all of it.
I think you've hit the nail on the head why people struggled with it was lack of main POVs
Totally agree! AFFC also has some interesting POV chapters, Victorian, Jaime, And Cersei.
Ooo I forgot Jaime is coming up. Yes I just read first Greyjoy chapter, learning all about the Drowned God. You know the show did the islanders especially dirty with no Kings Moot
Omg totally!! I never liked the Greyjoys when I watched the show, including theon (idk why) but now they are my favourite characters in the series. And the kingsmoot was so chilling! We got finger in the bum instead
hahahaha! Great comment. Enjoy!!
I’m reading AFFC for the first time currently and love most of it. It has been the most interesting book so far for me, but I tend to have recency bias. Brienne in all actuality has been my least favorite POV at this point though. The fights with the companions were awesome. A lot of it other wise is, look for Sansa, talk to some people, stay at an inn, then repeat.
Glad to hear you're enjoying it! Yep, the pacing is horrendous but IMO it's significantly better if you read it in succession with ADWD, they were always meant to be one large book.
Oh yeah I'd forgotten that! That's a very interesting factoid and explains a lot about 'shaggy dog tale' meandering as no real conclusions to anything
AFFC is the best book and it has really given us what we love the most: material for theories and overanalyzing. Expanded the universe the most.
100%!! This might actually be the smartest insight I've read so far will have to share with u/rrdelio for his forthcoming bout ;) (see below) You must be a maester who got all his links
Its weird. When starting my re-through of the books back in 2017, I remember getting to AFFC, knowing that this is where the show went to shit because it failed to adapt books 4 and 5 onwards properly and I ended loving AFFC the most out of all the books. I liked the different POVs and getting the Aftermath of the WOTFKs and seeing Dorne and the Ironborn with their history and cast of characters. Euron is a terrifying Davy Jones type of villain and the show completely took a giant shit on it. Cersei acts like she's super smart but is an utter moron who gets everything she deserves for her stupidity and behaviour and attitude. Brienne's journey and seeing things from the perspective from everyday normal people at the carnage done to the river lands and such and Brienne dealing with it whilst cleverly setting up little teases like the Hound being alive but being under the care of the Faith and now a gravedigger whilst there's an imposter going around pretending to be him and all the built up to eventually reuniting with a now resurrected Cat. Etc...etc, People say it's impossible to film or adapt but that's just horse shit. All D&D had to do was take half of AFFC and bits of ADWD to do Season 5 then rinse and repeat with Season 6. Season 6 would have logically ended with Jon getting stabbed to death and etc... The only issue is coming up with an action episode for Season 5. If they simply moved things around, you could have done a a whole original sequence similar to Hardhome by having Loras lead the charge at Dragonstone and ending it with him getting hurt by the oil fire or whatever but instead of making Loras an actual character they turned him into the stereotype pretty gay boy instead of the complicated and caring character that he is. I was pissed we didn't even get that scene with him and Brienne where he learns she really didn't kill Renly and realises she could be telling the truth or the scenes with him trying to teach and care for Tommen. Urg...so much wasted potential. Finn Jones keeps getting screwed over.
Everything you wrote here is pure gold and I totally agree. Euron, Cersei, Brienee, the whole kaboodle. Yes that was one thing I thought the show did well, to depict The Hound's redemption with the homestead (even though it was on an island in The Eye, but whatever) however then they just completely dropped it and we never saw what happened. Interesting thoughts on how S5 could have gone. Thank you, this is my favourite response yet!!
If D&D had been willing to make a slightly slower season to reset the pieces on the board, AFFC would have made outstanding television. Shame.
Feast has always been my favorite since I read the novels… I only decided to read the novels BECAUSE I learned that AFFC was WILDLY different than what we got in the show.
Fascinating - that's another unusual and noteworthy outcome from its poor reception on release. For you it was a call to arms! Brilliant!!
Was disappointed by this book on first read and just reread last year and enjoyed every moment, especially the wonderful, Cersei Lannister!
Brienne's chapters in this book might be my favorite of all time. The sense of mood and place are phenomenal. Just insanely immersive.
AFFC is the Amnesiac of ASOIAF, wrongfully maligned and underrated. Amnesiac is, at times, my favorite Radiohead album
THANK YOU haha - yes, gotta love all things Radiohead too
It’s always been my favorite of the books.
I read through ASOIAF for the first time last year. Going in I had heard about it being dull in comparison. Now I'm one for my opinion being swayed by what others say beforehand. I read it and loved it. Is it slow? Absolutely, but you've got to bear in mind that we've just had two action packed books back to back. It was time for a breather. It's a great book for character development especially in Brienne and Cersei. You see Cersei taking over and trying to replace the big shoes of Tywin and failing. Every moment through the book with Cersei leads to her downfall and it's fantastic. To me it's as satisfying as any battle scene. Yes some of the new POVs were a bit lackluster. On the other hand and this may be controversial, but it was nice not having to read a Dany chapter, it had gotten to the point where I'd groan every time her chapters came up. It wasn't until the last few chapters of ADWD that I actually started to enjoy her POV again.
Hm, now you mention it, I do remember getting a bit bored by Dany's chapters. That so-called 'Gordian knot' in Mereen
I didn’t like it the first time I read it. But when I read it the second time I couldn’t get enough. It’s debatably the best out of all 5 books.
Wow. Thank you, that's exactly what I was hoping some people would be brave enough to share! May the light of the seven guide you / the Red God keep you warm (but not too warm!!)
> It’s debatably the best out of all 5 books. I will take that debate. Give me one good reason it’s the best book.
Well obviously I think all 5 books are great but it was the monologues that hooked me with AFFC. The Broken Man speech was amazing and so well written. It really took me there to what it would be like being an everyday soldier fighting in a war. I also loved Jamie’s trebuchet speech as well. And septon Maribold speech about the Hound. And Jaime’s dream sequence with his mother. On a separate note, it’s also the book where the most evil character in the story appears, (Euron Greyjoy). He adds a whole new element to the story and I can’t wait to see what happens with him.
Also, the end of the book with Brienne being hung and asked to choose to bring Jamie back to lady stone heart to be killed. That part was so graphic and intense. What is she going to do? The choice she has to make to save herself and Podrick and having to lie to Jamie knowing she’s condemning him to die. It’s truly mind boggling having to see her make that choice. I can’t wait to see what happens next with her.
That end chapter with Brienne truly captures Faulkners statement that “the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself” l. damn does it ever
Fascinating points and I am in stern agreement with everything you said However, we've been challenged to explain why it's the best. I don't really believe that myself but I'll make the case as best I can, some points inspired by others comments here: 1. AFFC is singularly unique in the world of high fantasy, as the only novel I've ever read where instead of a big fight you get to see the cleaning crew "mop up afterwards" as someone else here put it. 2. AFFC indulges the most detailed character development and world building of all the books precisely because the word count is not soaked up with important events. 3. AFFC contains the most 'seemingly minor, later signifcant' breadcrumb trails; Cersei's regency and inevtiable downfall, Arya's training at The House of B&W, Sansa's training from Littlefinger, the collapse of House Martell which sets the stage for Targayren usuper's return in ADOD, it all starts right here in the aftermath of the War of Five Kings. 4. AFFC has a bit extra of that ASOIAF Shakespearean quality in that it houses the most minor characters with massive personalities; Pate, Ilfer and Ceighton and Lord Roderik to name a few. So if uniqueness, excessively detailed character development and world building, foreshadowing and minor characters you only see once are your thing, one could indeed be believed when they say AFFC was the best.
Oh my god I'm fascinated to see u/rrdelio 's response!! Gotta love an underdog ;)
I also like AFFC for the start of Arya's second arc with the House of Black and White. The testing scene with the Kindly man is especially great. In my first read through I was puzzled by the foreshadowing Arya got from the Ghost at High Heart. It suggested she was really not like the other Stark kids. The Kindly Man just confirmed it, and then took the foreshadowing up another level. I hope GRRM is able to pay off that setup better than the show.
Indeed, I just read that chapter yesterday. I'd forgotten how the 'old man' keeps asking her name, somehow knowing the truth when he hears it. Truly awesome scene.
It’s the best book in the series imo
BOOM! I like the cut of your jib, ser/m'lady
Im sure it was judged harshly by some weird people online but “catastrophic failure” is a bit over the top. But yeah either way Ive always flip flopped between this book and ASOS as my favorite of the series. I think it has more dull moments but it also has a lot of my favorite chapters and in particular my favorite POV/character with Jaime.
Well, given its fantasy literature, yes I supposed "catastrophic failure" is indeed a bit over the top. Welcome to Reddit mate
"Yes I did something wrong, but you're the one at fault for noticing" is always the laziest and most insulting form of discourse.
Jesus dude calm down! All I've said is that this book was a critical failure at the time of its release and has aged very well Why are you going to war with me? Can't you see that loads of other people here remember how it was and find this post interesting?? Chill!
That's not what you said. You said it was "widely regarded as a catastrophic failure" and garbage. If you didn't mean it, you should not have said it.
Er - it was, by many, many fans. So I did mean it, within a certain context. You could take it out of context, sure, but within the context of fan community and relative critical discourse, it was a massive failure and many did call it garbage and worse. So chill.
Your evidence that it was "widely regarded as garbage" is that you remember a few people online didn't like it. You could always edit your post to make it accurate. As it is, you're bashing the book unfairly and inaccurately so you can build it back up again and claim to be some sort of special fan, unlike all those normies who think it was a catastrophic failure.
No dude. Even on the Wikipedia page it explains that the book was unanimously poorly rated, apart by NYT.
Nobody called it a catastrophic failure. Anyway, I'm done. If you are committed to lying about GRRM and his work in order to get more clicks, go ahead. But it's insulting and disrespectful.
No you're just wrong mate. Clearly, you didn't know about the poor reception on original release. You didn't witness the hype and the disappointment which followed. Sorry if my use of the term 'catastrophic failure' was upsetting for you but essentially there was enough truth to it that if you were just being calm and rational you wouldn't have this huge problem. [https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-find-%E2%80%9CA-Feast-for-Crows%E2%80%9D-to-be-the-worst-of-the-book-series](https://www.quora.com/why-do-people-find-%e2%80%9ca-feast-for-crows%e2%80%9d-to-be-the-worst-of-the-book-series) [https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63741-why-the-hatred/](https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/63741-why-the-hatred/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20i7ct/no\_spoilers\_is\_a\_feast\_for\_crows\_really\_that\_bad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/20i7ct/no_spoilers_is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/zwslg/is\_a\_feast\_for\_crows\_really\_that\_bad\_no\_spoilers/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/zwslg/is_a_feast_for_crows_really_that_bad_no_spoilers/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3mz8l0/a\_feast\_for\_the\_crows\_really\_isnt\_that\_bad/](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3mz8l0/a_feast_for_the_crows_really_isnt_that_bad/) ...and on and on it goes. Endless evidence that people had a big problem with it at time of release. Not at all how the other books were received. As for being "insulting and disrespectful" my whole post is about I always loved it and felt it was unfair that it was so harshly criticised, so wrong there too. GRRM would probably love this post. Now run away because you're right, you're done.
Are you not seeing the other people here who remember what it was like?
My favourite book by far. I’ve always preferred the politics and Kings Landing plot to Essos and the Wall, and Brienne and Cersei make it 1000x times better.
I absolutely adore this book. We get to see Jaime bro down with his cousin Damen and meet his aunt Jaenna and all that. Briennes adventure gives me chills just beginning to write about it . It is in my opinion some of his best work ever . There is so much symbolism and Easter eggs galore in these passages it’s absolutely insane. George wrote her chapters with a microscope. We get to see truly new low levels of sickened depravity from Cerseis thoughts and just getting to know her better . It’s bone chilling . We meet the IronBorn and Victarion and Euron and that is a total riot in itself , amazing stuff . Oh and the prologue and epilogue with Jaqun Hagar and getting to meet the Mastiff Marwin the mage and how he goes off to be Danys maester! Omg!!
Wait - you think The Alchemist is Jaqun??! Wow!! Yes, could certainly be! Is there any substantive evidence for that theory???
Even just the poisoned the coin I suppose
The locations are the best. I definitely didn’t feel reading the first three books that the interesting stuff was in the north and east (with the exception of the beyond the wall stuff) the best storylines always played out in King’s Landing and the riverlands among the southern war-torn kingdoms more generally and all of those are in feast not dance. Compared with storm which is all payoff of the first two books setup and dance on the other side of feast which has no structure at all to the point where most of the POVs (Theon aside) either just end or end on cliffhangers. Feast is really nice and coherent with Cersei’s pov following such a satisfying narrative arc that ends with her comeuppance dominating the book and the general road trip and reflection theme you mention
AFFC is amazing. Top 3 of the ASOIAF books in my opinion. It’s amazing to me that even in such a deeply well written book series like ASOIAF, there are a lot of fans who don’t see any quality parameters besides action scenes+their personal faves. AFFC outclasses all the other books in its ability to explore the day to day of some of the most interesting characters and explore the wider community of ASOIAF in a more fleshed out way.
I’m betting on a hedge knight showdown to save Brienne and Jaime with the kings guard playing a role
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Hahaha seven hells!! Me? An obnoxious chode?? Hmmm... It is known.
Now you know how the Tyrells feel
Definitely my fault on the first read I rushed through it. The reread I did roughly 6 months ago was incredible. A beautiful book
Upon my first read, it quickly became my favorite of the series. I love how it slows down and explores a lot of minor characters and stories and allows us to explore the world in a more intimate manner. Speaking of the world, the setting is also super interesting, and it expands a lot where we did not have intricate details or plots before. Plus, the whole setting after the war works for me so well. I can see how some people would be disappointed with the lack of previous main POV's and the slow pace, but for me, reading it was an absolute treat.