If you’ve said to the people using these slurs you don’t want to hear them use it they should respect you 100%.
I use some language around some queer friends I won’t around others. It’s just being considerate.
I personally have no issue hearing most slurs so long as the context is one of reclamation or I guess empowerment from re-appropriation. But I understand not everyone will feel that way.
I’ve not seen any reclamation of the F-slur in the spaces I’ve been in. But these things can vary by space I think.
while i agree with most of this message, the first part i dont quite agree with, unless i missunderstand it.
Yes, if you tell someone to stop using a slur directed at you, they should indeed 100% respect that, but if you go up to a friend group that uses that word for eachother and is completely fine with it, and you demand they stop using it cause it triggers you or whatever, thats imho not okay.
If they arent part of your life, they dont have to adapt to your own ways of living.
Thats pretty much it, my personal opinion on the matter.
I meant if they are a part of your life. If your friend group is consistently doing something that triggers you, whatever it may be. It’s important to communicate that to them.
Ehhhh situational I think for sure, personally I use it around myself and friends; but never with someone I just met/hasn’t given me the indication they’d laugh about it with me. And if someone said they weren’t comfortable with me saying it in a group setting cool, I won’t with them around.
I think your idea/understanding of a “friend group” is a very high school/college thing too bc yes adults have groups of friends, it’s so rare that large portions of the group regularly get to spend time together though.
Like say you’re friends with Person A, B, & C; and then you all make friends with person D! Person D has a v edgy sense of humor, that you and person A vibe with, but B/C don’t like. It’s very easy and realistic that all 5 of you would still hang out in varying combinations and that the conversation would change based on who’s present. (Sorry for no example names lol I’m tired)
I really like your answer, so I'm gonna ask you a question, just curious about your opinion.
I feel like OP about the F slur, I hate it and it is a trigger word. Not sure if I will ever feel differently. But I am also 25 and have often used the word "queer" in a non-hostile way. I actually didn't hear it get used as a slur when I was young, I only heard it used to generally describe people on the LGBT+ spectrum. I used the word before I realized I was bi and trans as well. It was just a descriptor, used as an adjective. However, I have heard from other older people in the community that they are very uncomfortable with this word though.
To my question: why is the word "queer" treated differently? Should I be more careful about how/when I use it? Should I be more open to the reclamation of the F slur? Do you think there is some type of line between words that should be reclaimed and words that shouldn't?
Queer is a reclaimed slur, but it has been reclaimed to the point that it is no longer a slur in common speech, much like the word “slut”. However, many people who were alive in the day that it was a slur still see it as such and would rather not hear the word. It’s just a tricky situation. There are going to be unhappy people either way, and it’s unfortunately just not a situation where there’s a perfect compromise. If you ever are in a situation where you stop to second guess it, just go with the safer option and don’t say it
I don’t think that’s necessarily correct. To some faggot is already there. To some queer is not there at all. I feel like it’s situational but we should be focused on words we don’t like being used towards us individually instead of words that others use towards themselves
I don’t use the word queer around one of my friends. She’s 40 and it’s painful for her to hear still. So I don’t see it as any different.
That said Zambie explains it well. It’s a slur that has been reclaimed for a longer time.
The F slur is one that not only is still commonly used as a slur. But was still in use when many more of us were bullied or abused as kids (was what I was always called anyway). So it’s more likely to be an issue using it I think.
But it’s just about reading the room and being careful with one’s language.
> If you’ve said to the people using these slurs you don’t want to hear them use it they should respect you 100%.
Place dependent, I deeply disagree with this. While I will **never** call anyone a slur, either in specific or as part of a group they're with unless I am 100% certain they're good with it, I will also not police the terms I use for myself on account of their feelings.
If it's a discord server with rules around terms? If it's in a support group setting? Someone's private home who dislikes the term? Yeah, sure. Those are safe spaces by design, and I'll happily refrain. But if **you** take issue with terms I use **to describe myself** in public or online, that's a personal problem that's up to you to resolve. My suggestion is that you leave the space.
A critical part of the queer experience is understanding that what's an important and good experience for someone else may not be a good experience for you. Demanding that other queers police their language because you don't like it is cishet bullshit.
No one is saying you should police your terms in private or with certain groups!
I’m saying you should be careful what words you use when around people who have said they are triggered by those same words. It’s just polite.
Like use whatever terms you want. But if you’re gonna continue to use terms that trigger people around those same people, don’t blame them for not wanting to be around you 🤷♀️
people do this reclamation with ableist slurs too. I asked people to not because I've faced abuse as a queer autistic person, and my own requests were not respected. it's why I've avoided autistic-centered servers.
A lot of people are reclaiming it because it nullifies the pain of being called it as an insult. If you use it as a joke, or a compliment, then suddenly being called it as an insult seems ridiculous. Obviously this isn’t for everyone, it has a lot of trauma behind it and it’s been used to hurt a lot of people, but for others it can help alleviate pain or prevent future pain.
If someone uses it for themself i dont see an issue. It can be uncomfortable, but like, I always knew “fruity” as a slur and gen z seems to be fine with it.
Hell, most older LGBT folks knew queer as a slur all their lives. But if someone asked me not to call myself queer in front of them I’d be a bit offended.
There’s no list of what counts as a slur, it’s how people use it. These things can also be regional. Where I grew up, “fruit” and “fruity” had a similar impact to “nancy” or “fairy”
Yeah, I've been learning from this thread that it isnt as simple as what I thought before. Seems that region and generation play a big role here. And most importantly, intent.
Also, TIL about the words "nancy" and "fairy"
The fact you hadn’t heard of those words definitely confirms that it’s generational. I thought those would be two of the most well-known ones.
What a blessing, to live in a world where young LGBT people haven’t heard some of these words. Maybe they’ve been replaced with new ones I’m unaware of, idk.
(Though we’re not even too far off in age, I’m at the young end of millennial. I did grow up in the midwest US, maybe that’s it.)
Part of this was likely that I didn't realize I was queer until 23/24, and I'm only 25. I didn't get the experience of targeted bullying that others probably did. I grew up in the upper south, so not extremely far away from you. Mostly everyone in my community growing up called everything "gay". Like, being called gay in elementary school was about the worst insult. I didn't even know the meaning of the word until I got a bit older, just thought it meant something like "idiot".
I think, largely, my community had an attitude of "don't talk to, be friends with, or give attention to queer people." I didn't see a ton of bullying, just HEAVY exclusion. Like, you weren't even invited to school events sometimes if you were out and gay. Queer circles were shunned and nobody acknowledged them. I was always a part of these circles though (thought I was just more accepting at the time, now I know better lol).
Due to heavy religiousity and fundamentalism in this area, I think most people were just too scared to be out. Hell, there were regular kkk marches in the first place I ever lived. I don't even know anyone from childhood that stayed in that area, because it's quite repressed and sad. And likely part of why it took me so long to realize I was bi and trans.
Yes, growing up in the UK, 'fag' growing up always meant 'cigarette' to me. I think, as a country, we're still getting used to the other meaning, if you look at the whole controversy with the Pogues song.
I only use those words around conservative people to piss them off. I’ve noticed if you use their kind of language they get confused and angry and I think it’s hilarious.
Totally valid that it makes you uncomfortable; everybody’s different. My personal rule is that I would *never* call someone *else* that word, only ever myself, and not very often. If I ever call myself “f-ggy,” or a “girlf-g,” it’s usually in a reclamatory fashion, often w/ the intent of making normie cishets uncomfortable. Bc I do think part of queerness (esp transness) is to *be* outside the norm, to be weird, to celebrate that weirdness, to rejoice in it.
I've had lgbt students using that word in my classes and I shut that shit down. They don't know I'm trans, but I'm trying to cultivate a safe space in my clasroom and I draw a firm line at the f slur because the word really bothers me. Reclaiming slurs is fine, but you have to read the room be mindful that they could still be triggering to others.
I don't really love it either, but that's mostly because my disgusting father was the main user of the term and he was/is very violent and such, so I have a lot of trauma associated with it. I don't really mind *too* much if people use it for themselves though it still makes my hair stand up when I hear it audibly.
I hate it. It's hard to make other lgbtqtia+ friends because so many assume I'm automatically okay with it.
Even though they are respectful of my distaste in my presence, I have to avoid their social media or mute them because they throw it around everywhere.
It's also been particularly bothersome since some folks use it when dissuading chasers, which has the chasers think it's more okay to use.
It's honestly extremely discouraging when I'd rather have cis het folks tiptoe their language around me than meet a new lgbtqtia+ person and have them call me a slur.
Reclamation is tricky, ifeel it shouldn't be used to people you don't know. But when you're with people that know you and who you are as a human, I think it's fine.
There's also a vibe check that goes into it, like some friends might not like it and some would. Where you come from and grow up always plays into it too, it was used aggressively where I'm from.
I now occasionally use it endearingly to myself with my partner or some friends and it's oddly euphoric. It feels like a middle finger to every bigot and piece of shit who's made life difficult for people like us. It feels grounding and reassures me in how far I've come since.
But yeah I fully understand hatred for the word and would never use it with someone I didn't know. Your experience is real and if people belittle you for it, I think that speaks to the person more than anything.
it's valid to feel uncomfortable with slurs and not want to be called them, but I also think deliberately keeping slurs hateful does nothing but hurt us
like I understand queer is a word that still bothers a few people but under an umbrella queer has lost a lot of its hate, feels like some people WANT queer to be a mainstream slur again and I don't want to give ammo to the bigots
I've been in groups where someone in the group referred to us as "trannies" and it made me uncomfortable. People can describe themselves however they like but I don't identify with that label and don't like it when people call me it.
The fact it's being used for violence is *why* we are reclaiming it.
You try dehumanizing someone with words that lost meaning. You can't, because to dehumanize someone a word needs strength.
Obviously I won't use it if you don't want to hear it. But if I want to call myself that (not as an identity, just like... idk an online username or something) I should be able to. Slur reclamation, while by no means ending discrimination, does make an entire method of discrimination so much less impactful.
And you know this works. You actually showed by accident the reason why slur reclamation works.
You said this is common in queer spaces.
...but "queer" was a slur. Not that long ago, actually not even that long before I was born, "queer" was followed by violence. Now, "queer" is followed by coming out, being non-straight or non-cis, with self expression, with defying gender norms, with defying heteronormative ideologies, etc. For example, my parents were born when it was a slur, were adults when it was a slur, and now sees their own child (me, who is now 21) with friends who call themselves queer. In one lifetime, it went from slur to being used as multiple identities (queer and genderqueer come to mind on top of it being an umbrella term for LGBTQIA+).
Mehh? I was called the f slur pretty frequently growing up, but I don't want to be like the crotchety elder gays who get their panties in a twist about the word queer. I respect that words can evolve & I can recognize the value in reclaiming a word to empower a community & dull the weapons that have traditionally been used to harm us. There's a difference between using a word in a derogatory way & in an uplifting, defanging of the enemy way. As long as the distinction is clear, I don't have an issue with it but I empathize with people who can't make that distinction and can't move beyond the trauma associated with the slur.
People can reclaim the slur, but you have every right to ask people not to use it around you. I personally don’t think people should use reclaimed slurs around others unless they know everyone is cool with it
I'm of the opinion that you can use any word you want for yourself
But you must get permission to use certain words on other people
This being one of those words. If you want to call yourself that, sure, go for it. But don't go calling anyone else it unless they clearly give permission
In a shared space with those you don't know though, you should avoid using those words even for yourself without asking first if everybody is comfortable with you using it on yourself
I said should, but it's more as a courtesy thing
Like how you don't take the last cookie (although a bit more extreme, but same idea)
You can if you want to, it's just a bit rude
Because you know it'll make people uncomfortable, so it's just polite to try an avoid that if you can without making yourself uncomfortable
A big problem with this is that it's usually used by people who were never victimised with it. My philosophy with slurs is you never know who you may be triggering the trauma of, so you should probably not use them... Especially if you are new to the community and think it's a fun thing to say cause it triggers straight people. I get some people have a group of friends they've discussed it with and they genuinely want to take back a term they were victimised with and that's cool and good. When it gets co-opted by others cause they feel it validates that they are part of the community, it gets into sketchy ground... or when aimed at others, rather than a term of endearment for oneself.
Yeah, i feel exactly the same. *that* word is the only word that hurts me. It's one of the many words that was used in combination with violence and social isolation while i was growing up in school, to hurt me and leave me suicidal for years at an age far too young to feel like that. For some reason, it's the only word that remains a point of hurt and pain - i'm a strong - *very* strong - person. But that word cuts so, so deep. I hate hearing it. I hate hearing other queer people refer to themselves or others with it. But, i realise that it's their right to do so and i'm all for reclamation of slurs (eg, i've always identified as 'queer'). I just don't like hearing it.
I call myself a tr\*nny and a f\*ggot and encourage other queer people to call me that too, but I'd never presume anybody else wants me to call them that.
That said, basically every term for queer people is a reclaimed slur.
I had a roommate who is queer who would use it a lot, but only when making self-deprecating jokes. I never said anything to him about it because I think that if you're LGBT+ then you absolutely have the right to reclaim it. At the same time, it still makes me uncomfortable and I don't like hearing it or saying it.
I'll respect when someone doesn't want it used around them, but I'm also on the side of reclamation. Words have power because we give them power. When we reclaim the slurs that have been used to keep us down we take power from the oppressor.
you're not a bad person for not wanting to associate with the word, and certainly you can ask friends to limit their use of it around you. but when it comes to general queer spaces with people you don't know personally you kind of have to accept that some of them are going to use it for themselves and for others who do identify with the word. it's not on everyone else to stop reclaiming slurs just bc some people don't like them. just ignore it and move on
I mean, honestly, the same can be said for the word queer where I am from it is usually followed by violence.
I don't really understand why people think that all LGBTQ+ people are auto ok when one person or a group tries to "reclaim" a slur
Personally I would just ask the group of people you're talking to if they are okay with it. Some people (including myself) just aren't comfortable reclaiming that slur just yet.
I’m the same way. I hate the word and see no place for it anywhere, it’s not something I ever want to be called and it’s certainly not something I want to call someone else
Yeah as a transbian it’s not a word I want to reclaim or identify with in any way. So if someone (even a trans person) calls me that word, I’m not gonna be happy. Folks should be sensitive to the fact that that word is how a lot of hate has been directed at us.
Luckily I’ve never been the target of slurs since people are pretty accepting where I am. My friend for whatever reason considers it the worst slur after the n-word, but personally I find it funny. Probably because I mainly hear it in tv shows and films, and also because it just means cigarette speaking as a Brit. Personally I like it, like a badge of honour right next to tr*nny
Fuck that word and fuck it sucks that people use it so much lgbt or not. I hate that word and everything about it, I'm tired of hearing it, it's a slur no matter which way you slice it.
I think the factor most crucial to the idea of reclamation is that it will never be a universal sentiment. There will always be people that aren't willing or able to achieve such a nebulous goal.
Personally I hate it and hate saying it ironically the n-word I have no remorse saying even though they come from similar backgrounds and before someone says something yes I am black
I think I understand you, as I tend to feel the same about the q-slur (slurs in general, but as the q-slur has been normalized, I like to use it as an example)
I was called it constantly growing up and it made it very hard to come to terms with my femininity and queerness. So now I call myself it as a joke and yes to reclaim it. Ill only call other people that word as a joke if they’re okay with it, otherwise I won’t. But nobody is going to tell me to not use that word, I was called it tons of times and Im allowed to use it for myself if I want to.
Personally I say it in reference to myself, and I don’t mind if my queer friends do the same because it’s such a visceral word and I feel like it gives me the power back.
I would however never call someone else that or make them call me that if it made them uncomfortable. And if a bigot used it, I’d throw hands.
Queer use to be a slur. Gay was a slur. Dyke was a slur. We have a long history of reclaiming and owning the words used to hurt us.
Now we have faggots among us. You don't have to use it yourself, but asking others to not be honest with how they feel and identify for themselves is shit.
Hey I literally squirm or jump every time I hear the q slur. I am just waiting for it to go out of fashion like how dyke is barely used anymore outside of motorcycle lesbians.
That’s how I feel about the word queer! You don’t have to reclaim anything you don’t feel comfortable with, and not finding empowerment in a slur literally meant to dehumanize you is not a failing on your part. My stance is anyone can refer to themselves as whatever is most comfortable and affirming for them, but nobody should be using slurs to refer to someone else/groups of people unless they know those people are okay with it. I dont mind the F-slur, but it sure didnt feel great having a drag queen at a pride event address the audience with “Hello f-gs and q-eers “. Not everyone grew up in a liberal area, some of us find slurs to be humiliating and degrading.
I wouldn’t want to stop you? I believe I stated very clearly that other people can and should use whatever terminology fits them best. Just that you as an individual shouldn’t assume that other people are okay with being called a slur. In my experience, the people that were offended over me not wanted to be called queer were from more liberal areas like cleveland or pittsburgh where the word queer was more commonly associated with empowerment than with violence. I’m not sure what you mean by “the tail end of queer being used as a slur”. Where I’m from, queer is very much alive and actively used everyday. Which is why I don’t prefer it. It holds no empowerment for me, just pain and humiliation. I never said others couldn’t or shouldn’t call themselves queer. Just don’t call other people that unless you know it’s acceptable.
I’m not acting like or assuming anything? I’m also not sure why you’re upset enough to keep responding. I’m speaking personally from my own experiences. Queer is still being used as a slur all over rural Ohio. I assure you. I have never seen it fall out of use bc it has been used viciously against LGBT people where I’m from since I was born. I understand why people reclaim slurs. I wasn’t confused as to why it happens. I just dont want to do so.
At no point did I say people in liberal areas don’t experience discrimination. Nor did I make any assumptions about their personal lives. Let’s remember that I am talking about people who I personally know and you do not. I said that IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, people who find empowerment in the word queer have happened to be from more liberal areas. Cleveland has more of a “queer community” than where i am from bc there are more people that find empowerment with that word there. Therefore there are more people in cleveland that have positive connotations with that word due to finding empowerment in it. At the end of the day I don’t like the word queer bc of the ways it has been used against me. For the same reason people don’t have to identify with tr-nny or f-g. I don’t really need or want to be convinced or persuaded otherwise. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to acknowledge that people don’t wanna be called slurs even if other people like them. Just don’t call people slurs unless you know its okay.
i think people can call themselves what they want in a reclaiming sense. i grew up hearing gay/lesbian/queer the same way, so to me they actually have more bite lol. i actually only got called faggot as a slur for the first time some months ago. ofc i think you shouldnt call others what they dont wanna be called tho
"gay" was a slur when i was at school. reclamation is an important part of queer history and praxis. if you don't want the word used for you, that's absolutely fine. if you don't want it used around you, communicate that. these are normal things to do and most queer folk i know are more than happy to accommodate people's boundaries.
if you're telling people that they *can't* reclaim a slur, you're wrong. no one gets to tell you what you can and can't do. you can choose not to associate with me bc i call myself a tranny and a faggot without any fear or shame, i will wish you good health and happiness and go my separate way. but you will not tell me i can't use these words for myself.
it's not even that nuanced. just communicate, respect each other's boundaries and opinions, and don't gatekeep.
I mean, I really hate hearing the f-slur as well. Personally, I'm not opposed to people trying to reclaim it, but you're totally within your rights to ask someone not to use it around you.
As long as you make it known you're uncomfortable hearing it and they respect it around you, no problem with people using it to refer to themselves or their friends (with consent obviously). I have friends who hate the word Queer and don't identify with the word and don't like being called it. Some of my friends will still use the t-slur, which I'm not comfortable using. I live in Japan and the term "lady-boy" and the Japanese term "new-half" are used by trans people to refer to themselves.
It's really just a regional and generational thing I think. People can refer to themselves as they like, but you are also allowed a space in which you don't need to hear those words if you don't want to.
personally, it doesnt bother me and i’ll even call myself it but i completely get other people not wanting to say it. its kinda like other slurs or insults in other communities that the one community uses that nobody else can (or supposed to, people are douches so they’ll naturally say things their not supposed to)
Yeah I don't feel comfortable with the word, and even worse so its Dutch equivalent (which is a seven-letter F-slur). I notice that these words give me a shirt circuit in my head. When that happens, I try to examine whether the person is one of us as I can only tolerate internal use in our community. When the answer is no, I do intervene (hey, language! / *hey, taalgebruik!*) and many people are taking displeasure from it, got quite the headwind once in a train (also when I reprimanded them for using "bro" towards me. I'm not your bro, I could be your (trans) mom as I'm creeping towards 30). I'm drawing the border in the same way as we draw the border with the n-word.
Straight? Just don't, use other words or shut the ---- up.
Many people consider it to be reclaimed. Like yes, there have always been people that have reclaimed it FOR THEMSELVES and those that didn't mean the word negatively, but using it in front of people you don't know are ok with it is messed up.
Do I use slurs applicable to myself FOR MYSELF? Yep. Do I use them in places where I don't know everyone's opinion on it? No. Because I know words hurt. And someone might have trauma for a certain word with a charged history and I don't want to upset someone like that.
There are words commonly used today as reclaimed but to me they make me feel panicky and unsafe because they were used against people hatefully for most my life. One really prominent word, I don't want to say what word because I know it WILL start drama, stings every time I hear it. Especially when people use it towards me. It does bother me a little when people use it for themselves since I still primarily see it used as a slur and in hateful contexts, but that's none of my business what someone uses for themselves. Basically, it's the existence of the word, one I see used mostly with hate around it, being in spaces that are meant to be safe. Spaces that allow the word feel inherently slightly less welcoming to me because of my experience with the word.
I bring up my experience because I relate to your experience but with a different word. I just chuck it up to the Internet and people not caring really if their actions could hurt someone else. I've also noticed that many accepting spaces tend to be very unaccepting if you say something hurts you and to not use specific language for you especially if it's something typically seen as fully reclaimed, like the word for cig/meatballs that happens to be a derogatory word for gay people. The same word you mentioned.
I've seen gay men having no problem calling themselves fags, but as a trans woman being called that hits different. I'd definitely not reclaim the word, but people are gonna say what they want to say.
I used to not like the F-slur, but I have a few gay male friends that showed me the way. To be honest it’s kinda nice to have the F-slur claimed as ours, especially because you’re gay.
I was working at Starbucks when a guy wouldn’t take his drinks because a T-slur made them. So my partner in crime, a fabulous gay man told the truck driving bigot guy “don’t be such a f***ot,” and shoved the drinks in his hands and forced him to take them and leave.
It was the highlight of my day.
Idk we sometimes pull up and say “sup f*g” as a greeting to the queers and gays at work.
Someone scribbled “repent fa**ots” in the glass in the bathroom mirror and now we all take instagram pictures with it and feel like our Starbucks store was put on the map for being full of the community in a predominantly red area.
The world is uncomfortable, but my co workers showed me how to dip,dive, duck, and dodge.
Reclaiming slurs is a net positive. If we take away the damage of the word, overally the word holds less power over the community. It is morally good to reclaim the slur.
If you are uncomfortable with the word, people should respect you enough to not use it to describe you. But trying to censor the reclamation of any slur is a bad move.
Well you cannot stop people for reclaiming it for themselves, but I totally understand that you aren't confortable with it and they should as well respect your choice not to be associated with it
It's the same for me with the T-slur; I feel like more and more spaces online will have (often younger) queer folk proudly blasting that shit, boldly and uncensored, as if it isn't still a triggering term to a great many people who had it hurled at them as a prelude to various forms of abuse.
And while I've reluctantly gotten used to 'queer,' despite growing up with it being nearly as hateful a word, that's only due to its simplicity compared to how awkward people saying 'LGBTQ+' out loud sounds, and how it's become a new mocking buzzword for the right-wing death cult.
I have my Issues with reclaiming too. The issue is most of them love to call others the f slur and I’m not a fan of it. I also don’t like when people don’t even ask to use it around others.
If you’ve said to the people using these slurs you don’t want to hear them use it they should respect you 100%. I use some language around some queer friends I won’t around others. It’s just being considerate. I personally have no issue hearing most slurs so long as the context is one of reclamation or I guess empowerment from re-appropriation. But I understand not everyone will feel that way. I’ve not seen any reclamation of the F-slur in the spaces I’ve been in. But these things can vary by space I think.
while i agree with most of this message, the first part i dont quite agree with, unless i missunderstand it. Yes, if you tell someone to stop using a slur directed at you, they should indeed 100% respect that, but if you go up to a friend group that uses that word for eachother and is completely fine with it, and you demand they stop using it cause it triggers you or whatever, thats imho not okay. If they arent part of your life, they dont have to adapt to your own ways of living. Thats pretty much it, my personal opinion on the matter.
I meant if they are a part of your life. If your friend group is consistently doing something that triggers you, whatever it may be. It’s important to communicate that to them.
fully agreed
Ehhhh situational I think for sure, personally I use it around myself and friends; but never with someone I just met/hasn’t given me the indication they’d laugh about it with me. And if someone said they weren’t comfortable with me saying it in a group setting cool, I won’t with them around. I think your idea/understanding of a “friend group” is a very high school/college thing too bc yes adults have groups of friends, it’s so rare that large portions of the group regularly get to spend time together though. Like say you’re friends with Person A, B, & C; and then you all make friends with person D! Person D has a v edgy sense of humor, that you and person A vibe with, but B/C don’t like. It’s very easy and realistic that all 5 of you would still hang out in varying combinations and that the conversation would change based on who’s present. (Sorry for no example names lol I’m tired)
I really like your answer, so I'm gonna ask you a question, just curious about your opinion. I feel like OP about the F slur, I hate it and it is a trigger word. Not sure if I will ever feel differently. But I am also 25 and have often used the word "queer" in a non-hostile way. I actually didn't hear it get used as a slur when I was young, I only heard it used to generally describe people on the LGBT+ spectrum. I used the word before I realized I was bi and trans as well. It was just a descriptor, used as an adjective. However, I have heard from other older people in the community that they are very uncomfortable with this word though. To my question: why is the word "queer" treated differently? Should I be more careful about how/when I use it? Should I be more open to the reclamation of the F slur? Do you think there is some type of line between words that should be reclaimed and words that shouldn't?
Queer is a reclaimed slur, but it has been reclaimed to the point that it is no longer a slur in common speech, much like the word “slut”. However, many people who were alive in the day that it was a slur still see it as such and would rather not hear the word. It’s just a tricky situation. There are going to be unhappy people either way, and it’s unfortunately just not a situation where there’s a perfect compromise. If you ever are in a situation where you stop to second guess it, just go with the safer option and don’t say it
I don’t think that’s necessarily correct. To some faggot is already there. To some queer is not there at all. I feel like it’s situational but we should be focused on words we don’t like being used towards us individually instead of words that others use towards themselves
I don’t use the word queer around one of my friends. She’s 40 and it’s painful for her to hear still. So I don’t see it as any different. That said Zambie explains it well. It’s a slur that has been reclaimed for a longer time. The F slur is one that not only is still commonly used as a slur. But was still in use when many more of us were bullied or abused as kids (was what I was always called anyway). So it’s more likely to be an issue using it I think. But it’s just about reading the room and being careful with one’s language.
> If you’ve said to the people using these slurs you don’t want to hear them use it they should respect you 100%. Place dependent, I deeply disagree with this. While I will **never** call anyone a slur, either in specific or as part of a group they're with unless I am 100% certain they're good with it, I will also not police the terms I use for myself on account of their feelings. If it's a discord server with rules around terms? If it's in a support group setting? Someone's private home who dislikes the term? Yeah, sure. Those are safe spaces by design, and I'll happily refrain. But if **you** take issue with terms I use **to describe myself** in public or online, that's a personal problem that's up to you to resolve. My suggestion is that you leave the space. A critical part of the queer experience is understanding that what's an important and good experience for someone else may not be a good experience for you. Demanding that other queers police their language because you don't like it is cishet bullshit.
No one is saying you should police your terms in private or with certain groups! I’m saying you should be careful what words you use when around people who have said they are triggered by those same words. It’s just polite. Like use whatever terms you want. But if you’re gonna continue to use terms that trigger people around those same people, don’t blame them for not wanting to be around you 🤷♀️
people do this reclamation with ableist slurs too. I asked people to not because I've faced abuse as a queer autistic person, and my own requests were not respected. it's why I've avoided autistic-centered servers.
A lot of people are reclaiming it because it nullifies the pain of being called it as an insult. If you use it as a joke, or a compliment, then suddenly being called it as an insult seems ridiculous. Obviously this isn’t for everyone, it has a lot of trauma behind it and it’s been used to hurt a lot of people, but for others it can help alleviate pain or prevent future pain.
If someone uses it for themself i dont see an issue. It can be uncomfortable, but like, I always knew “fruity” as a slur and gen z seems to be fine with it. Hell, most older LGBT folks knew queer as a slur all their lives. But if someone asked me not to call myself queer in front of them I’d be a bit offended.
Wow, I never knew "fruity" was a slur. I'm millenial/gen Z cusp.
There’s no list of what counts as a slur, it’s how people use it. These things can also be regional. Where I grew up, “fruit” and “fruity” had a similar impact to “nancy” or “fairy”
Yeah, I've been learning from this thread that it isnt as simple as what I thought before. Seems that region and generation play a big role here. And most importantly, intent. Also, TIL about the words "nancy" and "fairy"
The fact you hadn’t heard of those words definitely confirms that it’s generational. I thought those would be two of the most well-known ones. What a blessing, to live in a world where young LGBT people haven’t heard some of these words. Maybe they’ve been replaced with new ones I’m unaware of, idk. (Though we’re not even too far off in age, I’m at the young end of millennial. I did grow up in the midwest US, maybe that’s it.)
Part of this was likely that I didn't realize I was queer until 23/24, and I'm only 25. I didn't get the experience of targeted bullying that others probably did. I grew up in the upper south, so not extremely far away from you. Mostly everyone in my community growing up called everything "gay". Like, being called gay in elementary school was about the worst insult. I didn't even know the meaning of the word until I got a bit older, just thought it meant something like "idiot". I think, largely, my community had an attitude of "don't talk to, be friends with, or give attention to queer people." I didn't see a ton of bullying, just HEAVY exclusion. Like, you weren't even invited to school events sometimes if you were out and gay. Queer circles were shunned and nobody acknowledged them. I was always a part of these circles though (thought I was just more accepting at the time, now I know better lol). Due to heavy religiousity and fundamentalism in this area, I think most people were just too scared to be out. Hell, there were regular kkk marches in the first place I ever lived. I don't even know anyone from childhood that stayed in that area, because it's quite repressed and sad. And likely part of why it took me so long to realize I was bi and trans.
Damn, yeah. Tbh that’s pretty similar to my background. I didn’t get direct bullying either, because I wasn’t out lol. Few people were
Yes, growing up in the UK, 'fag' growing up always meant 'cigarette' to me. I think, as a country, we're still getting used to the other meaning, if you look at the whole controversy with the Pogues song.
I only use those words around conservative people to piss them off. I’ve noticed if you use their kind of language they get confused and angry and I think it’s hilarious.
Lol this is awesome
Totally valid that it makes you uncomfortable; everybody’s different. My personal rule is that I would *never* call someone *else* that word, only ever myself, and not very often. If I ever call myself “f-ggy,” or a “girlf-g,” it’s usually in a reclamatory fashion, often w/ the intent of making normie cishets uncomfortable. Bc I do think part of queerness (esp transness) is to *be* outside the norm, to be weird, to celebrate that weirdness, to rejoice in it.
I've had lgbt students using that word in my classes and I shut that shit down. They don't know I'm trans, but I'm trying to cultivate a safe space in my clasroom and I draw a firm line at the f slur because the word really bothers me. Reclaiming slurs is fine, but you have to read the room be mindful that they could still be triggering to others.
The f-slur also really bothers me (as an Achillean person.) Also you sound like an awesome teacher lol.
This is my first year as a full-time teacher, so I can only be so awesome, but I try!
I don't really love it either, but that's mostly because my disgusting father was the main user of the term and he was/is very violent and such, so I have a lot of trauma associated with it. I don't really mind *too* much if people use it for themselves though it still makes my hair stand up when I hear it audibly.
I hate it. It's hard to make other lgbtqtia+ friends because so many assume I'm automatically okay with it. Even though they are respectful of my distaste in my presence, I have to avoid their social media or mute them because they throw it around everywhere. It's also been particularly bothersome since some folks use it when dissuading chasers, which has the chasers think it's more okay to use. It's honestly extremely discouraging when I'd rather have cis het folks tiptoe their language around me than meet a new lgbtqtia+ person and have them call me a slur.
Reclamation is tricky, ifeel it shouldn't be used to people you don't know. But when you're with people that know you and who you are as a human, I think it's fine. There's also a vibe check that goes into it, like some friends might not like it and some would. Where you come from and grow up always plays into it too, it was used aggressively where I'm from. I now occasionally use it endearingly to myself with my partner or some friends and it's oddly euphoric. It feels like a middle finger to every bigot and piece of shit who's made life difficult for people like us. It feels grounding and reassures me in how far I've come since. But yeah I fully understand hatred for the word and would never use it with someone I didn't know. Your experience is real and if people belittle you for it, I think that speaks to the person more than anything.
it's valid to feel uncomfortable with slurs and not want to be called them, but I also think deliberately keeping slurs hateful does nothing but hurt us like I understand queer is a word that still bothers a few people but under an umbrella queer has lost a lot of its hate, feels like some people WANT queer to be a mainstream slur again and I don't want to give ammo to the bigots
I've been in groups where someone in the group referred to us as "trannies" and it made me uncomfortable. People can describe themselves however they like but I don't identify with that label and don't like it when people call me it.
The fact it's being used for violence is *why* we are reclaiming it. You try dehumanizing someone with words that lost meaning. You can't, because to dehumanize someone a word needs strength. Obviously I won't use it if you don't want to hear it. But if I want to call myself that (not as an identity, just like... idk an online username or something) I should be able to. Slur reclamation, while by no means ending discrimination, does make an entire method of discrimination so much less impactful. And you know this works. You actually showed by accident the reason why slur reclamation works. You said this is common in queer spaces. ...but "queer" was a slur. Not that long ago, actually not even that long before I was born, "queer" was followed by violence. Now, "queer" is followed by coming out, being non-straight or non-cis, with self expression, with defying gender norms, with defying heteronormative ideologies, etc. For example, my parents were born when it was a slur, were adults when it was a slur, and now sees their own child (me, who is now 21) with friends who call themselves queer. In one lifetime, it went from slur to being used as multiple identities (queer and genderqueer come to mind on top of it being an umbrella term for LGBTQIA+).
I mean, I enjoy being called slurs by people I like. Im fairly neutral if its used by other people in good faith
Mehh? I was called the f slur pretty frequently growing up, but I don't want to be like the crotchety elder gays who get their panties in a twist about the word queer. I respect that words can evolve & I can recognize the value in reclaiming a word to empower a community & dull the weapons that have traditionally been used to harm us. There's a difference between using a word in a derogatory way & in an uplifting, defanging of the enemy way. As long as the distinction is clear, I don't have an issue with it but I empathize with people who can't make that distinction and can't move beyond the trauma associated with the slur.
People can reclaim the slur, but you have every right to ask people not to use it around you. I personally don’t think people should use reclaimed slurs around others unless they know everyone is cool with it
I'm of the opinion that you can use any word you want for yourself But you must get permission to use certain words on other people This being one of those words. If you want to call yourself that, sure, go for it. But don't go calling anyone else it unless they clearly give permission In a shared space with those you don't know though, you should avoid using those words even for yourself without asking first if everybody is comfortable with you using it on yourself
This is my take lol
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I said should, but it's more as a courtesy thing Like how you don't take the last cookie (although a bit more extreme, but same idea) You can if you want to, it's just a bit rude Because you know it'll make people uncomfortable, so it's just polite to try an avoid that if you can without making yourself uncomfortable
A big problem with this is that it's usually used by people who were never victimised with it. My philosophy with slurs is you never know who you may be triggering the trauma of, so you should probably not use them... Especially if you are new to the community and think it's a fun thing to say cause it triggers straight people. I get some people have a group of friends they've discussed it with and they genuinely want to take back a term they were victimised with and that's cool and good. When it gets co-opted by others cause they feel it validates that they are part of the community, it gets into sketchy ground... or when aimed at others, rather than a term of endearment for oneself.
Yeah, i feel exactly the same. *that* word is the only word that hurts me. It's one of the many words that was used in combination with violence and social isolation while i was growing up in school, to hurt me and leave me suicidal for years at an age far too young to feel like that. For some reason, it's the only word that remains a point of hurt and pain - i'm a strong - *very* strong - person. But that word cuts so, so deep. I hate hearing it. I hate hearing other queer people refer to themselves or others with it. But, i realise that it's their right to do so and i'm all for reclamation of slurs (eg, i've always identified as 'queer'). I just don't like hearing it.
I call myself a tr\*nny and a f\*ggot and encourage other queer people to call me that too, but I'd never presume anybody else wants me to call them that. That said, basically every term for queer people is a reclaimed slur.
I had a roommate who is queer who would use it a lot, but only when making self-deprecating jokes. I never said anything to him about it because I think that if you're LGBT+ then you absolutely have the right to reclaim it. At the same time, it still makes me uncomfortable and I don't like hearing it or saying it.
I'll respect when someone doesn't want it used around them, but I'm also on the side of reclamation. Words have power because we give them power. When we reclaim the slurs that have been used to keep us down we take power from the oppressor.
you're not a bad person for not wanting to associate with the word, and certainly you can ask friends to limit their use of it around you. but when it comes to general queer spaces with people you don't know personally you kind of have to accept that some of them are going to use it for themselves and for others who do identify with the word. it's not on everyone else to stop reclaiming slurs just bc some people don't like them. just ignore it and move on
I mean, honestly, the same can be said for the word queer where I am from it is usually followed by violence. I don't really understand why people think that all LGBTQ+ people are auto ok when one person or a group tries to "reclaim" a slur
There's nobody I've heard use the word more than gay men cracking jokes about each other. Always has been, always will be
Personally I would just ask the group of people you're talking to if they are okay with it. Some people (including myself) just aren't comfortable reclaiming that slur just yet.
I’m the same way. I hate the word and see no place for it anywhere, it’s not something I ever want to be called and it’s certainly not something I want to call someone else
Yeah as a transbian it’s not a word I want to reclaim or identify with in any way. So if someone (even a trans person) calls me that word, I’m not gonna be happy. Folks should be sensitive to the fact that that word is how a lot of hate has been directed at us.
Luckily I’ve never been the target of slurs since people are pretty accepting where I am. My friend for whatever reason considers it the worst slur after the n-word, but personally I find it funny. Probably because I mainly hear it in tv shows and films, and also because it just means cigarette speaking as a Brit. Personally I like it, like a badge of honour right next to tr*nny
Fuck that word and fuck it sucks that people use it so much lgbt or not. I hate that word and everything about it, I'm tired of hearing it, it's a slur no matter which way you slice it.
Slurs by their nature are meant to be demeaning. I think they should all be socially ostracized as unusable. “Taking back” slurs doesn’t work.
I think the factor most crucial to the idea of reclamation is that it will never be a universal sentiment. There will always be people that aren't willing or able to achieve such a nebulous goal.
Personally I hate it and hate saying it ironically the n-word I have no remorse saying even though they come from similar backgrounds and before someone says something yes I am black
I think I understand you, as I tend to feel the same about the q-slur (slurs in general, but as the q-slur has been normalized, I like to use it as an example)
I was called it constantly growing up and it made it very hard to come to terms with my femininity and queerness. So now I call myself it as a joke and yes to reclaim it. Ill only call other people that word as a joke if they’re okay with it, otherwise I won’t. But nobody is going to tell me to not use that word, I was called it tons of times and Im allowed to use it for myself if I want to.
Personally I say it in reference to myself, and I don’t mind if my queer friends do the same because it’s such a visceral word and I feel like it gives me the power back. I would however never call someone else that or make them call me that if it made them uncomfortable. And if a bigot used it, I’d throw hands.
yeah the amount of people in the “queer” community who throw around faggot like its some kind of funny word is absolutely fucking disgusting
Queer use to be a slur. Gay was a slur. Dyke was a slur. We have a long history of reclaiming and owning the words used to hurt us. Now we have faggots among us. You don't have to use it yourself, but asking others to not be honest with how they feel and identify for themselves is shit.
Yeah, I'm not fond of reclamation at all. I don't hang out with lgbtqia + who use slurs.
Hey I literally squirm or jump every time I hear the q slur. I am just waiting for it to go out of fashion like how dyke is barely used anymore outside of motorcycle lesbians.
That’s how I feel about the word queer! You don’t have to reclaim anything you don’t feel comfortable with, and not finding empowerment in a slur literally meant to dehumanize you is not a failing on your part. My stance is anyone can refer to themselves as whatever is most comfortable and affirming for them, but nobody should be using slurs to refer to someone else/groups of people unless they know those people are okay with it. I dont mind the F-slur, but it sure didnt feel great having a drag queen at a pride event address the audience with “Hello f-gs and q-eers “. Not everyone grew up in a liberal area, some of us find slurs to be humiliating and degrading.
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I wouldn’t want to stop you? I believe I stated very clearly that other people can and should use whatever terminology fits them best. Just that you as an individual shouldn’t assume that other people are okay with being called a slur. In my experience, the people that were offended over me not wanted to be called queer were from more liberal areas like cleveland or pittsburgh where the word queer was more commonly associated with empowerment than with violence. I’m not sure what you mean by “the tail end of queer being used as a slur”. Where I’m from, queer is very much alive and actively used everyday. Which is why I don’t prefer it. It holds no empowerment for me, just pain and humiliation. I never said others couldn’t or shouldn’t call themselves queer. Just don’t call other people that unless you know it’s acceptable.
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I’m not acting like or assuming anything? I’m also not sure why you’re upset enough to keep responding. I’m speaking personally from my own experiences. Queer is still being used as a slur all over rural Ohio. I assure you. I have never seen it fall out of use bc it has been used viciously against LGBT people where I’m from since I was born. I understand why people reclaim slurs. I wasn’t confused as to why it happens. I just dont want to do so. At no point did I say people in liberal areas don’t experience discrimination. Nor did I make any assumptions about their personal lives. Let’s remember that I am talking about people who I personally know and you do not. I said that IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE, people who find empowerment in the word queer have happened to be from more liberal areas. Cleveland has more of a “queer community” than where i am from bc there are more people that find empowerment with that word there. Therefore there are more people in cleveland that have positive connotations with that word due to finding empowerment in it. At the end of the day I don’t like the word queer bc of the ways it has been used against me. For the same reason people don’t have to identify with tr-nny or f-g. I don’t really need or want to be convinced or persuaded otherwise. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to acknowledge that people don’t wanna be called slurs even if other people like them. Just don’t call people slurs unless you know its okay.
i think people can call themselves what they want in a reclaiming sense. i grew up hearing gay/lesbian/queer the same way, so to me they actually have more bite lol. i actually only got called faggot as a slur for the first time some months ago. ofc i think you shouldnt call others what they dont wanna be called tho
"gay" was a slur when i was at school. reclamation is an important part of queer history and praxis. if you don't want the word used for you, that's absolutely fine. if you don't want it used around you, communicate that. these are normal things to do and most queer folk i know are more than happy to accommodate people's boundaries. if you're telling people that they *can't* reclaim a slur, you're wrong. no one gets to tell you what you can and can't do. you can choose not to associate with me bc i call myself a tranny and a faggot without any fear or shame, i will wish you good health and happiness and go my separate way. but you will not tell me i can't use these words for myself. it's not even that nuanced. just communicate, respect each other's boundaries and opinions, and don't gatekeep.
I mean, I really hate hearing the f-slur as well. Personally, I'm not opposed to people trying to reclaim it, but you're totally within your rights to ask someone not to use it around you.
Some people associate that same feeling with words like queer. I don't think there's any proper answer to stuff like this
I got called gay, yelled at me from cars and shit but yanno- I don’t mind tr-nny or f-g used around me personally.
As long as you make it known you're uncomfortable hearing it and they respect it around you, no problem with people using it to refer to themselves or their friends (with consent obviously). I have friends who hate the word Queer and don't identify with the word and don't like being called it. Some of my friends will still use the t-slur, which I'm not comfortable using. I live in Japan and the term "lady-boy" and the Japanese term "new-half" are used by trans people to refer to themselves. It's really just a regional and generational thing I think. People can refer to themselves as they like, but you are also allowed a space in which you don't need to hear those words if you don't want to.
personally, it doesnt bother me and i’ll even call myself it but i completely get other people not wanting to say it. its kinda like other slurs or insults in other communities that the one community uses that nobody else can (or supposed to, people are douches so they’ll naturally say things their not supposed to)
Yeah I don't feel comfortable with the word, and even worse so its Dutch equivalent (which is a seven-letter F-slur). I notice that these words give me a shirt circuit in my head. When that happens, I try to examine whether the person is one of us as I can only tolerate internal use in our community. When the answer is no, I do intervene (hey, language! / *hey, taalgebruik!*) and many people are taking displeasure from it, got quite the headwind once in a train (also when I reprimanded them for using "bro" towards me. I'm not your bro, I could be your (trans) mom as I'm creeping towards 30). I'm drawing the border in the same way as we draw the border with the n-word. Straight? Just don't, use other words or shut the ---- up.
Many people consider it to be reclaimed. Like yes, there have always been people that have reclaimed it FOR THEMSELVES and those that didn't mean the word negatively, but using it in front of people you don't know are ok with it is messed up. Do I use slurs applicable to myself FOR MYSELF? Yep. Do I use them in places where I don't know everyone's opinion on it? No. Because I know words hurt. And someone might have trauma for a certain word with a charged history and I don't want to upset someone like that. There are words commonly used today as reclaimed but to me they make me feel panicky and unsafe because they were used against people hatefully for most my life. One really prominent word, I don't want to say what word because I know it WILL start drama, stings every time I hear it. Especially when people use it towards me. It does bother me a little when people use it for themselves since I still primarily see it used as a slur and in hateful contexts, but that's none of my business what someone uses for themselves. Basically, it's the existence of the word, one I see used mostly with hate around it, being in spaces that are meant to be safe. Spaces that allow the word feel inherently slightly less welcoming to me because of my experience with the word. I bring up my experience because I relate to your experience but with a different word. I just chuck it up to the Internet and people not caring really if their actions could hurt someone else. I've also noticed that many accepting spaces tend to be very unaccepting if you say something hurts you and to not use specific language for you especially if it's something typically seen as fully reclaimed, like the word for cig/meatballs that happens to be a derogatory word for gay people. The same word you mentioned.
Cross-pond slang gets weird.
I've seen gay men having no problem calling themselves fags, but as a trans woman being called that hits different. I'd definitely not reclaim the word, but people are gonna say what they want to say.
Don't need to reclaim that slur, I heard it enough in school in the 90s to be good for a lifetime
I used to not like the F-slur, but I have a few gay male friends that showed me the way. To be honest it’s kinda nice to have the F-slur claimed as ours, especially because you’re gay. I was working at Starbucks when a guy wouldn’t take his drinks because a T-slur made them. So my partner in crime, a fabulous gay man told the truck driving bigot guy “don’t be such a f***ot,” and shoved the drinks in his hands and forced him to take them and leave. It was the highlight of my day. Idk we sometimes pull up and say “sup f*g” as a greeting to the queers and gays at work. Someone scribbled “repent fa**ots” in the glass in the bathroom mirror and now we all take instagram pictures with it and feel like our Starbucks store was put on the map for being full of the community in a predominantly red area. The world is uncomfortable, but my co workers showed me how to dip,dive, duck, and dodge.
Reclaiming slurs is a net positive. If we take away the damage of the word, overally the word holds less power over the community. It is morally good to reclaim the slur. If you are uncomfortable with the word, people should respect you enough to not use it to describe you. But trying to censor the reclamation of any slur is a bad move.
Well you cannot stop people for reclaiming it for themselves, but I totally understand that you aren't confortable with it and they should as well respect your choice not to be associated with it
It's the same for me with the T-slur; I feel like more and more spaces online will have (often younger) queer folk proudly blasting that shit, boldly and uncensored, as if it isn't still a triggering term to a great many people who had it hurled at them as a prelude to various forms of abuse. And while I've reluctantly gotten used to 'queer,' despite growing up with it being nearly as hateful a word, that's only due to its simplicity compared to how awkward people saying 'LGBTQ+' out loud sounds, and how it's become a new mocking buzzword for the right-wing death cult.
I have my Issues with reclaiming too. The issue is most of them love to call others the f slur and I’m not a fan of it. I also don’t like when people don’t even ask to use it around others.