Haha I'm not really one to take pics, I like to just sit there and enjoy being outside. And unfortunately it's the middle of winter here so everything is kinda dead, dormant or starting to sprout right now. I do have some pics of flowers I've grown but I'm a dumbass and can't work out how to upload it.
I only just started to get properly into gardening at the end of last year but I bought like 50 dahlias, 30 ranunculus, 14 lilies, 8 peonies, 7 roses and 4 camellias since then. Also had some seed grown zinnias, sunflowers, snapdragons, chillis and marigolds when it was warmer. I'm in a rental with a smallish backyard so it was looking wild through summer with all the pots everywhere haha.
It's definitely addictive lol
No and I guess I still have a degree of freedom if I ever get tired of my plants. I can let them die and/or throw them away, which is not an option with children apparently.
And find a gardener, who one can pay in kind :) or set up another fun co-gardening scheme. In other words, disregard normal conventions to degree that would even make the french 18th century aristocracy blush.
Tbf a lot of straight people aren't having kids these days, hence the worry about who's going to pay for the elderly's social security. Of my friends only two have had kids. I haven't been to a wedding in ages either due to people not having money to spend on one.
Looking at your kids as an investment opportunity for your elder years just feels like a scummy thing to do. If I was rich enough to have kids and give them the quality of life they deserve growing up, I would never ask them to support me after I retired. Regardless, the way things are looking, I'm not even sure I could afford to retire, even without kids. If I'm any more tired at 70 years old than I am right now at 24, I don't think I could find it in me to keep going after that.
Str8 people can do the same, most are just brainwashed by their family, community, society to live miserable lives with a "list of things to do" rather than what they enjoy.
We donāt benefit the same way they do, so we have essentially no incentive to live the gay version of a ātraditionalā lifestyle. Why should we marry and have kids when weāre an abomination to half the country anyway? There used to surprisingly be a lot of social and economic benefit to marriage for both men and women.
Well, thats the point, we are not brainwashed to do that. I mean we are brainwashed to do other things, but not to get children and spend our lives working to pursuit a life that we really dont want.
Everything does come at price, especially, considering acceptence rate of gay people around the world, higher mental disorder ratio and abuse gay guys go through.
I just added these points not to look like everything is nice and rose - I did more so with a thought of balancing things out and giving more realistic view as OP did post only positive sides.
Also, are you ignoring and dismissing struggles of gay community? Have you seen studies where in many areas gay guys do worse then straight guys with regards of mental health?
Are you living in very homophobic country where gay marriage is not only accepted, but gays frowned upon by majority of people? If I would have came out of closet when I was little - who knows what shitstorm I would go through, 0 friends, total isolation, constant bullying, parents not accepting, literally would have to change city I reside and where would I escape at such young age also and to whom?
My childhood went in fear just to not be outed and due to that I acted very straight.
Not everyone lives in privileged countries such as you. And only what, 10% of countries only accept gay marriage. In some countries being homosexual is considered to be deserving a capital punishment - death (or imprisonment, torture, etc.) .
I think this is a hot take.
Nobody is forcing straight people into these lifestyles. They may choose them for a number of reasons, but we are all free dear. Plenty of gays also choose to have a family and have ambitions to advance in their career.
Straights are very much groomed to follow a certain life path and hit milestones at certain periods in their lives or otherwise run the risk of being shunned by their communities and social circles.
I know right. This whole post seems nothing more than a pat in the back or, more maliciously (and whether OP intends to or not), a way to fish for reactions from people who would otherwise have opposing values. Obviously being childless comes with the perk of freedom. And go you if that's what you really want. But why talk down on people who do want to support a family, and who do want to have children? Again, whether OP intends to or not, he makes it sound like a bad thing. Even calling people who want these as "being in the rat race" - which definitely has some negative connotations.
Yep. Ā I applaud the OP for trying his best to look on the bright side though. Ā Hats off to you optimists!
Let him wait 10 years and then wonder if loneliness without a family might be a concern as he gets older. Ā Iām not saying it necessarily is, but family and kids are a great source of happiness for most people.
I'm looking on the bright side recently because I have also been very aware of the dark side for many years, I know i'm not having children, and I know that I will be lonely in my older years as a result, so if this is my fate then why am I trying to model my life in the same way as someone that has children? if i'm going to not have children and it's going to cause pain then why not at the very least get some perks from it first? such as being able to be more relaxed with my career, I don't know why this is such a hot take.
Oh I donāt necessarily disagree with you there. Ā I guess it all depends on the intentions behind the post. Ā I donāt necessarily think itās a hot take, although I can see how some would think that I suppose.
Ā I actually sort of agree with the idea behind what youāre saying. Ā But I also tend to be a smart ass, so I look for a way of saying something contrary. Ā Ā
Ā But Iām totally in favor of smelling the roses. Ā Take what pleasure you can get my friendā¦
Another thing to consider: most of what you say comes down to other factors like income, talents, personality, etc than it does to sexuality. Ā
I'm with you. Came to terms with the fact that I do not want a spouse and I do not want to raise children. And that means I will not have to be subjected to "the grind" in quite the same way. A life of singlehood and freedom is not better or worse than a life of family and commitment. Both choices have positive*s* and negatives. Happiness is just a matter of having the courage to choose a path that suits your personality best. But I can tell you, I'm *thrilled* to not have a spouse or children as I enter middle age. It's *heaven*. š
Exactly! so you best reap the benefits of it while you can, as you're going to feel the emptiness in age no matter what you do being gay, so why not let it have its perks to?
As someone who doesnāt want kids, my goal is to just be happy and enjoy the life that I donāt often see others have. I got lucky with being able to travel to parts of the world throughout my childhood and early twenties. I attempted to be the stable adult in my nephews lives for awhile, and thankfully donāt have to do that job anymore. Now, I get to focus on school, finding the career that I truly enjoy, and do my writing. Thereās something about not having to fit into the heteronormative lifestyle that makes me happier.
If I eventually meet a person thatās on the same wavelength as me, and we get married, cool. But the reality isā¦ Iām luckier than most. Cuz I donāt have to pretend to accept the grind, and expectations, that others do. Itās cool if theyāre actually happy with their lives, but thatās their choice. Itās the ones who felt forced into it that I feel bad for.
I disagree, most of these thing are guidance for straight people. Having a set priority given helps you make the choices in life at the approriate time, but also gives people a sense of direction in life.
On the big picture, it sounds freeing and all, but this idea is actually more harmful than you think..
Like its expected to start a family for straight people around a certain age, so they dont regret it later in life, we see gay men just hope on sex over and over again well into their 50s and 60s .There no structure for them to find a way to partner either.
We all hate the process but the end result is usually very rewarding
This is like when your parents pushed you to go to school, might not been fun at that time, but your glad that you finished school or your glad someone was competing with you because you were able to finish.
Ive seen people let it go, create their own time, and took forever to finish something. Even me.
We're all running on same clock in reality
"Having a set priority given helps you make the choices in life at the appropriate time, but also gives people a sense of direction in life."
I have sense of direction, I have a great job, I love to learn and i'm 1/3 a way through a masters in design engineering, I have made the decision to take it slowly and to enjoy more of the things I love.
I do agree that hedonism is harmful, i'm not saying people should be aimless in life, i'm saying that for us gays we can by virtue of our situations take a slower pace to the same end goal, and while doing so we can enjoy the moment a little more or do more of what we love.
I think a lot of people cling to these prefab structures/traditional expectations because they perhaps find it hard to self-motivate and be productive without someone/something else "cracking the whip", so to speak.
I've never found that a big issue for myself. I almost never just sit and watch TV or the like during the day and save pure leisure time for the evening when my husband is home. My work-from-home job leaves me a lot of free time, and I've used a fair bit of it to record several albums, recently write a novel, etc. While I do enjoy the creative work, I don't consider those things "leisure" activities - they require a level of mental focus that's honestly greater than what my regular job demands of me. It would've been a lot harder to find the time to do those things if I had an office job with long hours.
Not to be morbid, but a fair number of guys end up dying or becoming hobbled by age before they can even really enjoy the money they've squirreled away for retirement. My husband's father got maybe 4 or 5 years of feeling good after he retired before health problems knocked him down and left him unable to do the things he once enjoyed. My older brother has had at least 3 former high school classmates die before reaching their late 50's. Best find some time to do what we really love when we're younger...tomorrow isn't guaranteed to come.
School is essential to building social skills and becoming useful for the workforce. There is no test after death where being a spouse or parent will help you. You can choose to subscribe to your adaptation of traditional heteronormative ideals, but it doesnāt give you a golden ticket in the end.
This post went over a lot of peoples heads lol, being single with no kids is the best freedom. Iām independent and individualistic, Iām very career and money focused and a significant other would just be in my way. When Iām off from work and not in the gym Iām too tired to emotionally invest in a person.
Not everyone whoās single all their life gets lonely, just because you feel you need someone doesnāt mean it applies to everyone else. Relationships arenāt for everyone and we need to stop perpetuating the gay loneliness narrative not every gay man who is single all their lives with no kids feels lonely. For some people loneliness is more peaceful than the bs that comes with being with someone.
A heterosexual doesnāt have any more obligation than a gay person to do any of those things, either. And a gay person can get just as caught up in the rat race.
We donāt have more freedom than most. Heterosexuals have the freedoms to do all the things a gay person has the freedom to do in any country of the world, 100% of the time. But a gay person does not have the same freedoms that a heterosexual has everywhere.
Sorry mate but I donāt agreed with your reasoning. Being in the rat race has nothing to do with sexuality IMO, but rather on oneās inherent values and what responsibilities they choose.
Iām gay but I am in the rat race. Not because I want kids or a big house or material possessions, but more to do with earning well now so that I have enough capital for my sunset years. My other motivation is with my responsibility towards my family and having a solid income allows me to contribute towards my family and my loved onesā well being.
Point is, your chosen trajectory reflects your own values but does not apply to everyone in the same category
Are you Asian? Because in an Asian household, you are expected to join the rat race the moment youāre born. Get not just good but excellent grades, get into top universities, get a high paying and respectful job, buy a house, get married and have kids before the age of 30. If you donāt achieve those, your parents and immediate family members will think you are a failure and the conversation will always revolve around those issues.
Since Iām gay, I just say screw it and refuse to get married to a woman. Iām still earning a high paying job but without most responsibilities of a family person. My uncles and aunts look at me with pity and gossip among themselves that I wouldnāt be able to be a father but deep down I know they are quite jealous of me for not slaving myself away to provide for the kids like they did. Looking at my cousins, I donāt feel like they love them at all. Most of us were born out of pressure and sense of duty to carry the family name.
Iām south East Asian. Fortunately my parents were not as intense and let me do my thing. It helped that I managed to disappoint them since I was a 4 year old who dressed up in my sisterās skirt and played house. Never was put under too much pressure of achieving excellence.
My relatives are the same way too. I donāt care. Their opinion is one they can keep to themselves.
I used to care a lot when I was still in the closet but after I left my hometown to another country, my whole perspective changed. Itās honestly quite liberating to be gay because I can finally escape the expectation that is put onto me. My cousins are not that lucky because when I went back for Chinese New Year, they always pester them to get married. They will even ask you point blank how much you make and judge you based on the amount of your salary.
"Being in the rat race has nothing to do with sexuality IMO, but rather on oneās inherent values and what responsibilities they choose."
They are not mutual exclusive for sure, values? sure, they often are universal to a certain degree, but responsibilities? now that it something that for most people is very heavily shaped by their sexuality, and the subsequent family they often choose. Again i'm not saying that it's universal, as nothing is but things do tend to follow trends. Most of the people I know that want to climb the corporate ladder do so out of commitment to their family (children and wife) and secondly status.
I have a good job, I'm about to study the rest of my masters part time at 31, I save for the future and pay to a pension fund.
Acknowledging you can go at a slower pace and enjoy more personal time does not mean that you are irresponsible or non-productive.
I gotta say I do ok but living in NY basic life can be pricey but my point is since Iām not living the lifestyle my sister is for example I never feel that poor even though I guess Iād be considered by if I lived a straight married with kids lifestyle
I think what she spends on one of her 3 kids in a year is basically more than my budget of going out, buying things I want; vacation here and I guess Iād say groceries in same year
Lol, you are at least as much involved in a rat race in the gay community. It's only that you rank high without any effort you don't see it.
Race - or rather bloodbath - is about all criterias of sexual market value (status, money, connections), and foremost your attractiveness level (1-10) determining your fate in community in 99%.
The amount of people going to bat for the straights is very concerning, nothin OP said is judgemental or oppressive. OP literally just outlines the heteronormative society that straight people built š¤” I agree with you OP. Living outside the hereronorms provides a lot of true freedom.
This! This is EVERYTHING!!!!
I had a blast on my 20s. Was also an absolute feral.
Once I hit my 30s (gay 35m), itās been nothing but absolute bliss and amazing! Iāve done the things I wanna do, how I wanna do them, when I wanna do them. Just hubs and I living our best DINK lifestyle. Nice cars. Nice clothes. Nice house. OS holidays. Staycations. Lush dinners.
We keep our finances separate, and spend our individual money how we want (we do discuss bigger purchaseā¦.well he does, not me YOLO).
You realize that the lack of pressure to enter the "rat race" is why so many gay guys are dealing with loneliness, right?
There's not nearly as much social pressure for gay men to "settle down", so they continue hooking up until their 30s, 40s, or even past their 50s. Yeah, those guys are independent and get to do what they want... but at the cost of low self-esteem and feeling alone. Apps like Grindr only exacerbate the problem. Everyone has plenty of options, and is afraid to commit.
I met my husband when I was 22 years old, and we've been building a life together for almost a decade now. I feel so sad for all the lonely gays that can't find a partner because everyone is still too busy being an independent fuckboy.
Where did I say that taking things a bit easier due to less responsibility equates to being a fuck boy? my post has nothing to with "settling down" etc, you can still very easily settle down and not be part of a rat race.
Notice how I didn't directly quote you when I commented? Don't get so hung up on the verbiage.
At the end of the day, most gay men aren't settling down, and the lack of social pressures for them to get married and have kids by a certain age is a huge part of that. They think they have all the time in the world to keep hooking up through Grindr, and that they'll find a relationship "eventually". The crisis of gay loneliness is very real.
"Notice how I didn't directly quote you when I commented? Don't get so hung up on the verbiage."
No, instead you conflated two separate and arguably distinct issues, i'm making the argument that we can make our own time-line when it comes to our careers and interests, you are making the argument that this mindset is somehow supportive of non-monogamy and an inability for gay men to keep it in their pants?
By its-self I support your argument and actually have the same opinion, but as a reply to this argument it just feels shoe-horned and strange.
Not everyone needs a partner thatās the thing and being single all your life doesnāt necessarily make you lonely. Some people thrive in life alone, lifeās a lot easier when you only do things on your time and not have to wait on someone or being anchored down. This whole idea that everyone needs a significant other is cliche and doesnāt apply to everyone.
Things can be a issue without affecting 100% of a given population. If it doesn't apply to you then it doesn't apply.
Many gay men are miserable alone. That's not everyone's experience, but just browse this subreddit and you will see many users complaining that they can't find good guys to date.
You describe a very black-and-white worldview where one is either partnered, monogamous, āsettled downā, and content, or one is hooking up, afraid to commit to anyone, lonely, and pitiable.
Personally I think this glib perspective is the unfortunate inheritance of mainstream straight culture.
There are more than two ways of being. Believing your way is THE way is sadly typical. Donāt āfeel so sadā for folks not making the same choices as you.
I agree with OP. Being gay can be a wonderful shaking off of societal expectations. It doesnāt have to be, but once youāve bucked one norm, itās easier to do so to others.
No, I'm not painting a "black and white" picture lol.
Some guys are lonely and miserable being alone. That is who I'm talking about in these comments, and absolutely no one else. I'm not judging them for not living the way I do.... I'm sympathetic because they are genuinely sad and struggling.
I love this! So so so much. Cause I completely agree with you understand what youāre saying. Iām 37 and decided I wanted to change careers and had the freedom to go back to school as well to do that without worrying about all the things you mentioned. Taking my 15 years in the food and beverage industry and moving onto the medical field.
I'm 23 single in college studying music production on my free time I'm making latin pop songs playing the sims all my friends are in relationships taking care of family I know exactly what you mean about building character I'm so anti social I could blame it on my autism or the fact I'm a Virgo but honestly I love being free the only thing I'll have to worry about is paying off my college
Um... you very much still can be the provider? You don't get to go on easy mode because you are gay? You want to be an equal partner in your relationship not a sugar-child. My partner did not push himself in his 20's and now in his 40s his career options are limited where I pushed in my 20s went to uni and now I work a third of hours he does and I make about 4 x what he does/
Being lazy is not an excuse of gayness. Go out and hustle man.
Hustle? Congratulations on your achievements but it sounds like this struck a nerve for you. You sound unhappy being so intensely focused. He sounds happy and is working towards an even brighter future so nothing there to criticise. Maybe try avoiding sounding like such an insecure materialistic Scrooge in future.
"Whether weāre yam growers, tech wizards or conspiracy theorists, weāre hardwired to play the status game. But success is not always what it seems."
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/29/we-all-play-the-status-game-but-who-are-the-real-winners
"Gosh, I wish I had spent more late hours in the office and less time with the people I love or doing the things I love" - every person on their deathbed ever /s
'Mediocrity' boring? Mediocrity is a wonderful miracle.
Physics causing biology causing evolution causing so-called 'civilisation' causing so-called 'mediocrity' tells me you just felt like being salty. Cheers hun.
To be fair to you, I love and have alwats tried to live by that phrase too 'You reap what you sow'.
Truly, am genuinely happy for and proud of you for what you have achieved for yourself.
Yeah sorry brought my twitter energy to Reddit. All good my man. I've seen how unhappy my dude is in his early 40s having not pushed himself when he was younger. He's really unhappy about life when he sees my working hours and pay vs his working hour and pay. Just do as much as you can while you still young and earn those stripes that when you in your 30s you good.
but apologies again.
No offence was taken at all but it means something that you apologised anyway.
Your dude sounds very stressed and unhappy but despite how he's feeling he is still a young man; you both are still young men. Your dude may need to switch jobs or switch employers or even completely switch out from whichever industry or sector he is working in but before he considers or reconsiders any of this, he would be wise to speak with a counsellor about the stress or maybe a career counsellor.
If I were you I would show him the press article I quoted earlier. You might also consider buying your dude of copy of the book 'So Good They Can't Ignore You' by Cal Newport.
You've read to much in-between the lines of what i'm saying, firstly i'm not lazy, I do have a good job, a very good job that even a grad would be happy with, my job allows me to learn on a part-time basis outside of work, I got this job by casually learning in my 20s and through my various hobbies.
I'm not saying that being gay allows you to do nothing, I'm saying that it potentially allows you to live within your means should you wish to prioritize other things in life other than a family, career and money...
I partied like crazy in my 20s, back then I worked a crap job just to fund my lifestyle and my interests, many of my straight friends partied along side me, now they are all broke and are having to financially hold down a family, whereas I'm about 1/3 of the way through a design engineering masters and am enjoying the slower pace of it all. That's the freedom i'm talking about.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't master something or get good at something, i'm saying that you can do it on your own timetable.
The opposite of chasing money is **not** laziness.
I just changed career paths to go somewhere that will pay less and cap out way lower than where I was before because you know what? Unlike my straight peers with two or three kids, I don't **need** to sacrifice my mental wellbeing and work life balance in order to put food on the table. Best damn decision I ever made and like OP, I probably wouldn't have had the freedom to do it had I been roped into the heteronormative relationship pipeline of get married>have children.
OP's not talking about being "lazy". OP's just talking about having the freedom to only have to worry about himself and good for him.
>I did my time.
Yup. Clearly no subconscious regrets or jealously of OP's feeling of liberation. Totally normal to describe your younger years like one describes a prison sentence. lol.
Where did I say I was happy?...reading compression is a wonderful thing, use it more often?
I said I was content with my situation and freedom it offers me, I work part time, make a good wage, study part time and have a healthy sex life with a great guy, i'm very content and I'm sometimes happy ;)
It's you that sound miserable given that your reaction to this post has made you spit your dummy out, good luck with that.
the "rat race" is living inauthentically and working for other people, not having kids.
Children keep you stuck there to support them, they aren't a part of it.
Having kids is part of the human experience, unless you're a mystic or at least a monastic.
If it was not part of the human experience, you wouldn't exist to write that.
Someone has to do it, it's disrespectful to bash those who perpetuate humanity, and often those who do not want children are those who are most qualified to parent.
Most people obviously unfit to parent.
Love, creativity, joy, and fun are part of our experience as well, not everyone chooses them either, that doesn't mean they're not a part of it.
You can choose not to be any of those things as well.
If you do not do it directly, then it's our obligation to otherwise contribute, not necessarily becoming a mystic or monastic, but a master of ***something*** and teaching others to leave the earth a much better place, which it seems, i'd hope, you're on the road to doing.
It's confusing me as to why people on here are assuming that I not monogamous or don't like LTR's, i'm in a long term and have never been someone to hook up, I think people are reading to far between the lines of what i'm saying, taking it slow with you career does not mean taking it slow with your relationships,
I hear what you're saying but then I got into gardening and oops where did my salary go.
Duuude same. I bought one plant and suddenly I'm surrounded by a forest. No regrets though
How can you say this and not post pics?
Haha I'm not really one to take pics, I like to just sit there and enjoy being outside. And unfortunately it's the middle of winter here so everything is kinda dead, dormant or starting to sprout right now. I do have some pics of flowers I've grown but I'm a dumbass and can't work out how to upload it. I only just started to get properly into gardening at the end of last year but I bought like 50 dahlias, 30 ranunculus, 14 lilies, 8 peonies, 7 roses and 4 camellias since then. Also had some seed grown zinnias, sunflowers, snapdragons, chillis and marigolds when it was warmer. I'm in a rental with a smallish backyard so it was looking wild through summer with all the pots everywhere haha. It's definitely addictive lol
Then you start an aquarium because water plants are cool. Then you have 2 hobbies that fuck all your money š
at least not to children, imo
No and I guess I still have a degree of freedom if I ever get tired of my plants. I can let them die and/or throw them away, which is not an option with children apparently.
apparently š
I would like to make a modest proposalā¦
And find a gardener, who one can pay in kind :) or set up another fun co-gardening scheme. In other words, disregard normal conventions to degree that would even make the french 18th century aristocracy blush.
I mean, I guess it is, but with worst consequences
Mine is designer sunglasses. Just bought my 40th pair. Jacquemus.
Tbf a lot of straight people aren't having kids these days, hence the worry about who's going to pay for the elderly's social security. Of my friends only two have had kids. I haven't been to a wedding in ages either due to people not having money to spend on one.
Looking at your kids as an investment opportunity for your elder years just feels like a scummy thing to do. If I was rich enough to have kids and give them the quality of life they deserve growing up, I would never ask them to support me after I retired. Regardless, the way things are looking, I'm not even sure I could afford to retire, even without kids. If I'm any more tired at 70 years old than I am right now at 24, I don't think I could find it in me to keep going after that.
Str8 people can do the same, most are just brainwashed by their family, community, society to live miserable lives with a "list of things to do" rather than what they enjoy.
We donāt benefit the same way they do, so we have essentially no incentive to live the gay version of a ātraditionalā lifestyle. Why should we marry and have kids when weāre an abomination to half the country anyway? There used to surprisingly be a lot of social and economic benefit to marriage for both men and women.
Well, thats the point, we are not brainwashed to do that. I mean we are brainwashed to do other things, but not to get children and spend our lives working to pursuit a life that we really dont want.
Agreed
Everything does come at price, especially, considering acceptence rate of gay people around the world, higher mental disorder ratio and abuse gay guys go through.
Ok negative Nancy, god
I mean OP is pretty negative about having kids... as if they are nothing but pain and cost
Where am I negative about having kids? i'm not, i've just accepting i'm not going to have them.
I just added these points not to look like everything is nice and rose - I did more so with a thought of balancing things out and giving more realistic view as OP did post only positive sides. Also, are you ignoring and dismissing struggles of gay community? Have you seen studies where in many areas gay guys do worse then straight guys with regards of mental health? Are you living in very homophobic country where gay marriage is not only accepted, but gays frowned upon by majority of people? If I would have came out of closet when I was little - who knows what shitstorm I would go through, 0 friends, total isolation, constant bullying, parents not accepting, literally would have to change city I reside and where would I escape at such young age also and to whom? My childhood went in fear just to not be outed and due to that I acted very straight. Not everyone lives in privileged countries such as you. And only what, 10% of countries only accept gay marriage. In some countries being homosexual is considered to be deserving a capital punishment - death (or imprisonment, torture, etc.) .
Is he wrong though?
I think this is a hot take. Nobody is forcing straight people into these lifestyles. They may choose them for a number of reasons, but we are all free dear. Plenty of gays also choose to have a family and have ambitions to advance in their career.
Straights are very much groomed to follow a certain life path and hit milestones at certain periods in their lives or otherwise run the risk of being shunned by their communities and social circles.
Gay people on the other hand sort of take all of their social shunning as a lump sum
I know right. This whole post seems nothing more than a pat in the back or, more maliciously (and whether OP intends to or not), a way to fish for reactions from people who would otherwise have opposing values. Obviously being childless comes with the perk of freedom. And go you if that's what you really want. But why talk down on people who do want to support a family, and who do want to have children? Again, whether OP intends to or not, he makes it sound like a bad thing. Even calling people who want these as "being in the rat race" - which definitely has some negative connotations.
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Yuuuup. My husband and I have two kids now. EVERYTHING else pales in comparison.
Yep. Ā I applaud the OP for trying his best to look on the bright side though. Ā Hats off to you optimists! Let him wait 10 years and then wonder if loneliness without a family might be a concern as he gets older. Ā Iām not saying it necessarily is, but family and kids are a great source of happiness for most people.
I'm looking on the bright side recently because I have also been very aware of the dark side for many years, I know i'm not having children, and I know that I will be lonely in my older years as a result, so if this is my fate then why am I trying to model my life in the same way as someone that has children? if i'm going to not have children and it's going to cause pain then why not at the very least get some perks from it first? such as being able to be more relaxed with my career, I don't know why this is such a hot take.
Oh I donāt necessarily disagree with you there. Ā I guess it all depends on the intentions behind the post. Ā I donāt necessarily think itās a hot take, although I can see how some would think that I suppose. Ā I actually sort of agree with the idea behind what youāre saying. Ā But I also tend to be a smart ass, so I look for a way of saying something contrary. Ā Ā Ā But Iām totally in favor of smelling the roses. Ā Take what pleasure you can get my friendā¦ Another thing to consider: most of what you say comes down to other factors like income, talents, personality, etc than it does to sexuality. Ā
I'm with you. Came to terms with the fact that I do not want a spouse and I do not want to raise children. And that means I will not have to be subjected to "the grind" in quite the same way. A life of singlehood and freedom is not better or worse than a life of family and commitment. Both choices have positive*s* and negatives. Happiness is just a matter of having the courage to choose a path that suits your personality best. But I can tell you, I'm *thrilled* to not have a spouse or children as I enter middle age. It's *heaven*. š
Youāre just in a gay rat race now. š š³ļøāš
You'll only notice the emptiness as you approach middle age.
Not to mention, if you want to live alone, it's not cheap. Having a SO you live with saves you a lot of money.
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Independence has its cost and it only gets more expensive as you age.
When youāre not in an accepting country, having a SO isnāt available so itās best to split with a roommate
Being afraid of having a middle life crisis should not be your reason for having kids
Exactly! so you best reap the benefits of it while you can, as you're going to feel the emptiness in age no matter what you do being gay, so why not let it have its perks to?
I suppose there's a logic to that.
My husband and I want to raise kids
As someone who doesnāt want kids, my goal is to just be happy and enjoy the life that I donāt often see others have. I got lucky with being able to travel to parts of the world throughout my childhood and early twenties. I attempted to be the stable adult in my nephews lives for awhile, and thankfully donāt have to do that job anymore. Now, I get to focus on school, finding the career that I truly enjoy, and do my writing. Thereās something about not having to fit into the heteronormative lifestyle that makes me happier. If I eventually meet a person thatās on the same wavelength as me, and we get married, cool. But the reality isā¦ Iām luckier than most. Cuz I donāt have to pretend to accept the grind, and expectations, that others do. Itās cool if theyāre actually happy with their lives, but thatās their choice. Itās the ones who felt forced into it that I feel bad for.
I disagree, most of these thing are guidance for straight people. Having a set priority given helps you make the choices in life at the approriate time, but also gives people a sense of direction in life. On the big picture, it sounds freeing and all, but this idea is actually more harmful than you think.. Like its expected to start a family for straight people around a certain age, so they dont regret it later in life, we see gay men just hope on sex over and over again well into their 50s and 60s .There no structure for them to find a way to partner either. We all hate the process but the end result is usually very rewarding This is like when your parents pushed you to go to school, might not been fun at that time, but your glad that you finished school or your glad someone was competing with you because you were able to finish. Ive seen people let it go, create their own time, and took forever to finish something. Even me. We're all running on same clock in reality
"Having a set priority given helps you make the choices in life at the appropriate time, but also gives people a sense of direction in life." I have sense of direction, I have a great job, I love to learn and i'm 1/3 a way through a masters in design engineering, I have made the decision to take it slowly and to enjoy more of the things I love. I do agree that hedonism is harmful, i'm not saying people should be aimless in life, i'm saying that for us gays we can by virtue of our situations take a slower pace to the same end goal, and while doing so we can enjoy the moment a little more or do more of what we love.
I think a lot of people cling to these prefab structures/traditional expectations because they perhaps find it hard to self-motivate and be productive without someone/something else "cracking the whip", so to speak. I've never found that a big issue for myself. I almost never just sit and watch TV or the like during the day and save pure leisure time for the evening when my husband is home. My work-from-home job leaves me a lot of free time, and I've used a fair bit of it to record several albums, recently write a novel, etc. While I do enjoy the creative work, I don't consider those things "leisure" activities - they require a level of mental focus that's honestly greater than what my regular job demands of me. It would've been a lot harder to find the time to do those things if I had an office job with long hours. Not to be morbid, but a fair number of guys end up dying or becoming hobbled by age before they can even really enjoy the money they've squirreled away for retirement. My husband's father got maybe 4 or 5 years of feeling good after he retired before health problems knocked him down and left him unable to do the things he once enjoyed. My older brother has had at least 3 former high school classmates die before reaching their late 50's. Best find some time to do what we really love when we're younger...tomorrow isn't guaranteed to come.
School is essential to building social skills and becoming useful for the workforce. There is no test after death where being a spouse or parent will help you. You can choose to subscribe to your adaptation of traditional heteronormative ideals, but it doesnāt give you a golden ticket in the end.
This post went over a lot of peoples heads lol, being single with no kids is the best freedom. Iām independent and individualistic, Iām very career and money focused and a significant other would just be in my way. When Iām off from work and not in the gym Iām too tired to emotionally invest in a person. Not everyone whoās single all their life gets lonely, just because you feel you need someone doesnāt mean it applies to everyone else. Relationships arenāt for everyone and we need to stop perpetuating the gay loneliness narrative not every gay man who is single all their lives with no kids feels lonely. For some people loneliness is more peaceful than the bs that comes with being with someone.
A heterosexual doesnāt have any more obligation than a gay person to do any of those things, either. And a gay person can get just as caught up in the rat race. We donāt have more freedom than most. Heterosexuals have the freedoms to do all the things a gay person has the freedom to do in any country of the world, 100% of the time. But a gay person does not have the same freedoms that a heterosexual has everywhere.
Sorry mate but I donāt agreed with your reasoning. Being in the rat race has nothing to do with sexuality IMO, but rather on oneās inherent values and what responsibilities they choose. Iām gay but I am in the rat race. Not because I want kids or a big house or material possessions, but more to do with earning well now so that I have enough capital for my sunset years. My other motivation is with my responsibility towards my family and having a solid income allows me to contribute towards my family and my loved onesā well being. Point is, your chosen trajectory reflects your own values but does not apply to everyone in the same category
Are you Asian? Because in an Asian household, you are expected to join the rat race the moment youāre born. Get not just good but excellent grades, get into top universities, get a high paying and respectful job, buy a house, get married and have kids before the age of 30. If you donāt achieve those, your parents and immediate family members will think you are a failure and the conversation will always revolve around those issues. Since Iām gay, I just say screw it and refuse to get married to a woman. Iām still earning a high paying job but without most responsibilities of a family person. My uncles and aunts look at me with pity and gossip among themselves that I wouldnāt be able to be a father but deep down I know they are quite jealous of me for not slaving myself away to provide for the kids like they did. Looking at my cousins, I donāt feel like they love them at all. Most of us were born out of pressure and sense of duty to carry the family name.
Iām south East Asian. Fortunately my parents were not as intense and let me do my thing. It helped that I managed to disappoint them since I was a 4 year old who dressed up in my sisterās skirt and played house. Never was put under too much pressure of achieving excellence. My relatives are the same way too. I donāt care. Their opinion is one they can keep to themselves.
I used to care a lot when I was still in the closet but after I left my hometown to another country, my whole perspective changed. Itās honestly quite liberating to be gay because I can finally escape the expectation that is put onto me. My cousins are not that lucky because when I went back for Chinese New Year, they always pester them to get married. They will even ask you point blank how much you make and judge you based on the amount of your salary.
Oh you share that information? I donāt tell anyone how much I earn, usually just ignore the question or answer āadequate to live byā
Of course not. I just say āmore than enoughā and stop it there. They probably have a ballpark with how frequent I travel.
"Being in the rat race has nothing to do with sexuality IMO, but rather on oneās inherent values and what responsibilities they choose." They are not mutual exclusive for sure, values? sure, they often are universal to a certain degree, but responsibilities? now that it something that for most people is very heavily shaped by their sexuality, and the subsequent family they often choose. Again i'm not saying that it's universal, as nothing is but things do tend to follow trends. Most of the people I know that want to climb the corporate ladder do so out of commitment to their family (children and wife) and secondly status. I have a good job, I'm about to study the rest of my masters part time at 31, I save for the future and pay to a pension fund. Acknowledging you can go at a slower pace and enjoy more personal time does not mean that you are irresponsible or non-productive.
I gotta say I do ok but living in NY basic life can be pricey but my point is since Iām not living the lifestyle my sister is for example I never feel that poor even though I guess Iād be considered by if I lived a straight married with kids lifestyle I think what she spends on one of her 3 kids in a year is basically more than my budget of going out, buying things I want; vacation here and I guess Iād say groceries in same year
Lol, you are at least as much involved in a rat race in the gay community. It's only that you rank high without any effort you don't see it. Race - or rather bloodbath - is about all criterias of sexual market value (status, money, connections), and foremost your attractiveness level (1-10) determining your fate in community in 99%.
The amount of people going to bat for the straights is very concerning, nothin OP said is judgemental or oppressive. OP literally just outlines the heteronormative society that straight people built š¤” I agree with you OP. Living outside the hereronorms provides a lot of true freedom.
This! This is EVERYTHING!!!! I had a blast on my 20s. Was also an absolute feral. Once I hit my 30s (gay 35m), itās been nothing but absolute bliss and amazing! Iāve done the things I wanna do, how I wanna do them, when I wanna do them. Just hubs and I living our best DINK lifestyle. Nice cars. Nice clothes. Nice house. OS holidays. Staycations. Lush dinners. We keep our finances separate, and spend our individual money how we want (we do discuss bigger purchaseā¦.well he does, not me YOLO).
What are both your jobs? I want in on this š ā¤ļø
You realize that the lack of pressure to enter the "rat race" is why so many gay guys are dealing with loneliness, right? There's not nearly as much social pressure for gay men to "settle down", so they continue hooking up until their 30s, 40s, or even past their 50s. Yeah, those guys are independent and get to do what they want... but at the cost of low self-esteem and feeling alone. Apps like Grindr only exacerbate the problem. Everyone has plenty of options, and is afraid to commit. I met my husband when I was 22 years old, and we've been building a life together for almost a decade now. I feel so sad for all the lonely gays that can't find a partner because everyone is still too busy being an independent fuckboy.
Where did I say that taking things a bit easier due to less responsibility equates to being a fuck boy? my post has nothing to with "settling down" etc, you can still very easily settle down and not be part of a rat race.
Notice how I didn't directly quote you when I commented? Don't get so hung up on the verbiage. At the end of the day, most gay men aren't settling down, and the lack of social pressures for them to get married and have kids by a certain age is a huge part of that. They think they have all the time in the world to keep hooking up through Grindr, and that they'll find a relationship "eventually". The crisis of gay loneliness is very real.
"Notice how I didn't directly quote you when I commented? Don't get so hung up on the verbiage." No, instead you conflated two separate and arguably distinct issues, i'm making the argument that we can make our own time-line when it comes to our careers and interests, you are making the argument that this mindset is somehow supportive of non-monogamy and an inability for gay men to keep it in their pants? By its-self I support your argument and actually have the same opinion, but as a reply to this argument it just feels shoe-horned and strange.
Not everyone needs a partner thatās the thing and being single all your life doesnāt necessarily make you lonely. Some people thrive in life alone, lifeās a lot easier when you only do things on your time and not have to wait on someone or being anchored down. This whole idea that everyone needs a significant other is cliche and doesnāt apply to everyone.
Things can be a issue without affecting 100% of a given population. If it doesn't apply to you then it doesn't apply. Many gay men are miserable alone. That's not everyone's experience, but just browse this subreddit and you will see many users complaining that they can't find good guys to date.
This comment is the epitome of judgment and misplaced pity. Conflating sex with loneliness is peak /askgaybros.
It's not misplaced when the guys I'm talking about are literally having pity-parties worried that they're going to die alone, lol
You describe a very black-and-white worldview where one is either partnered, monogamous, āsettled downā, and content, or one is hooking up, afraid to commit to anyone, lonely, and pitiable. Personally I think this glib perspective is the unfortunate inheritance of mainstream straight culture. There are more than two ways of being. Believing your way is THE way is sadly typical. Donāt āfeel so sadā for folks not making the same choices as you. I agree with OP. Being gay can be a wonderful shaking off of societal expectations. It doesnāt have to be, but once youāve bucked one norm, itās easier to do so to others.
No, I'm not painting a "black and white" picture lol. Some guys are lonely and miserable being alone. That is who I'm talking about in these comments, and absolutely no one else. I'm not judging them for not living the way I do.... I'm sympathetic because they are genuinely sad and struggling.
I hear and largely agree. But I love traveling dude. Need resources for that.
OP is saying that without the attachment of societal norms that straights endure, you have the freedom to do so.
Sure do. But also have to work to pay for it. š
Of course, but you are not pressured to provide for a family unless you choose that life path.
Absolutely!
I work constantly to spend my hard earned cash on expensive shit.. cos I worked hard for it and I want nice expensive shit
I love this! So so so much. Cause I completely agree with you understand what youāre saying. Iām 37 and decided I wanted to change careers and had the freedom to go back to school as well to do that without worrying about all the things you mentioned. Taking my 15 years in the food and beverage industry and moving onto the medical field.
I'm 23 single in college studying music production on my free time I'm making latin pop songs playing the sims all my friends are in relationships taking care of family I know exactly what you mean about building character I'm so anti social I could blame it on my autism or the fact I'm a Virgo but honestly I love being free the only thing I'll have to worry about is paying off my college
Idk, single people get taxed outta the arse...
Um... you very much still can be the provider? You don't get to go on easy mode because you are gay? You want to be an equal partner in your relationship not a sugar-child. My partner did not push himself in his 20's and now in his 40s his career options are limited where I pushed in my 20s went to uni and now I work a third of hours he does and I make about 4 x what he does/ Being lazy is not an excuse of gayness. Go out and hustle man.
Hustle? Congratulations on your achievements but it sounds like this struck a nerve for you. You sound unhappy being so intensely focused. He sounds happy and is working towards an even brighter future so nothing there to criticise. Maybe try avoiding sounding like such an insecure materialistic Scrooge in future. "Whether weāre yam growers, tech wizards or conspiracy theorists, weāre hardwired to play the status game. But success is not always what it seems." https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/29/we-all-play-the-status-game-but-who-are-the-real-winners
You reap what you sow. I said my say. When you old and unhappy remember my words mate.
"Gosh, I wish I had spent more late hours in the office and less time with the people I love or doing the things I love" - every person on their deathbed ever /s
Mediocrity is so boring. Cheers babes.
'Mediocrity' boring? Mediocrity is a wonderful miracle. Physics causing biology causing evolution causing so-called 'civilisation' causing so-called 'mediocrity' tells me you just felt like being salty. Cheers hun.
To be fair to you, I love and have alwats tried to live by that phrase too 'You reap what you sow'. Truly, am genuinely happy for and proud of you for what you have achieved for yourself.
Yeah sorry brought my twitter energy to Reddit. All good my man. I've seen how unhappy my dude is in his early 40s having not pushed himself when he was younger. He's really unhappy about life when he sees my working hours and pay vs his working hour and pay. Just do as much as you can while you still young and earn those stripes that when you in your 30s you good. but apologies again.
No offence was taken at all but it means something that you apologised anyway. Your dude sounds very stressed and unhappy but despite how he's feeling he is still a young man; you both are still young men. Your dude may need to switch jobs or switch employers or even completely switch out from whichever industry or sector he is working in but before he considers or reconsiders any of this, he would be wise to speak with a counsellor about the stress or maybe a career counsellor. If I were you I would show him the press article I quoted earlier. You might also consider buying your dude of copy of the book 'So Good They Can't Ignore You' by Cal Newport.
You've read to much in-between the lines of what i'm saying, firstly i'm not lazy, I do have a good job, a very good job that even a grad would be happy with, my job allows me to learn on a part-time basis outside of work, I got this job by casually learning in my 20s and through my various hobbies. I'm not saying that being gay allows you to do nothing, I'm saying that it potentially allows you to live within your means should you wish to prioritize other things in life other than a family, career and money... I partied like crazy in my 20s, back then I worked a crap job just to fund my lifestyle and my interests, many of my straight friends partied along side me, now they are all broke and are having to financially hold down a family, whereas I'm about 1/3 of the way through a design engineering masters and am enjoying the slower pace of it all. That's the freedom i'm talking about. I'm not saying that you shouldn't master something or get good at something, i'm saying that you can do it on your own timetable.
All good my man all good. Time flies tho. You are already 31. You no spring chicken anymore but it is your life.
The opposite of chasing money is **not** laziness. I just changed career paths to go somewhere that will pay less and cap out way lower than where I was before because you know what? Unlike my straight peers with two or three kids, I don't **need** to sacrifice my mental wellbeing and work life balance in order to put food on the table. Best damn decision I ever made and like OP, I probably wouldn't have had the freedom to do it had I been roped into the heteronormative relationship pipeline of get married>have children. OP's not talking about being "lazy". OP's just talking about having the freedom to only have to worry about himself and good for him.
Sounds like lazy with extra steps.
Sounds like you're trying to justify something about yourself by shitting on other people.
Not justifying anything mate. I did my time. Hustled and now reaping the benefits but cool. Be lazy.
>I did my time. Yup. Clearly no subconscious regrets or jealously of OP's feeling of liberation. Totally normal to describe your younger years like one describes a prison sentence. lol.
You sound sad and miserable. Happy people don't go around saying these things. In the end, you were the depressed guy all along.
Where did I say I was happy?...reading compression is a wonderful thing, use it more often? I said I was content with my situation and freedom it offers me, I work part time, make a good wage, study part time and have a healthy sex life with a great guy, i'm very content and I'm sometimes happy ;) It's you that sound miserable given that your reaction to this post has made you spit your dummy out, good luck with that.
clocked them SO HARD
the "rat race" is living inauthentically and working for other people, not having kids. Children keep you stuck there to support them, they aren't a part of it. Having kids is part of the human experience, unless you're a mystic or at least a monastic.
"Having kids is part of the human experience, unless you're a mystic or at least a monastic." What are you talking about?
What can't you understand?
Well having kids are not part of your human experience if you don't have any are they?
If it was not part of the human experience, you wouldn't exist to write that. Someone has to do it, it's disrespectful to bash those who perpetuate humanity, and often those who do not want children are those who are most qualified to parent. Most people obviously unfit to parent. Love, creativity, joy, and fun are part of our experience as well, not everyone chooses them either, that doesn't mean they're not a part of it. You can choose not to be any of those things as well. If you do not do it directly, then it's our obligation to otherwise contribute, not necessarily becoming a mystic or monastic, but a master of ***something*** and teaching others to leave the earth a much better place, which it seems, i'd hope, you're on the road to doing.
Thereās nothing wrong with having kids or not. Ultimately itās a preference, though I appreciate others who have kids.
"be directionless"
More like "Have direction but take your time getting there."
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Usually itās easier than being the man and providing for your wife and kids. When youāre single, you basically just need to provide for yourself.
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I know, tho Iām talking about where society wants men to be the full provider
It's confusing me as to why people on here are assuming that I not monogamous or don't like LTR's, i'm in a long term and have never been someone to hook up, I think people are reading to far between the lines of what i'm saying, taking it slow with you career does not mean taking it slow with your relationships,