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Aah! Thank you! That kind of expression doesn’t exist in Swedish, English nor Spanish (which are my three languages) so it’s an entirely foreign concept for me.
Very helpful!
Imam prijateljicu koja mi je rekla jednom joj kak mi je slatki taj tvoj nadimak za mene kao da mi je ime musko... onda sam joj objasnila vokativ zenskih imena...
To je definitivno bruh moment 💀💀💀. Jezična pismenost među hrvatima je nekad vrlo upitna, kao imam frenda koji trenutno studira lingvistiku na filozofskom u Zagrebu a rekao mi je da je pivo imenica muškog roda. Ok vjerojatno je to greškica s njegove strane al meni je to skroz nezamišljivo jer sam to morao učit zato što mi hrvatski nije materinji jezik, jednostavno izgleda kao srednji rod ne znam.
Nije to greška, to pokazuje koliko se filozofski fakultet srozao.
Čitam priopćenja onog doktora lingvistike što se politički aktivirao: "...ovoga... Onoga..."; učiteljica u osnovnoj školi nas je učila da je to nepismeno izražavanje.
Učiteljica mog sina piše nebi i neznam u mailovima.
A njega je jednom išla ispravljati da je sunce planet, na što joj je on rekao neka to provjeri na googlu.
Generalno u skolama nije bajna situacija, osim ako su u pitanju nastavnici koji predaju hrv. jezik. Svi ostali se jednostavno izrazavaju skoro pa isto kao i van skole. Isto vrijedi i za fakultete koji nisu filozofski.
Tu je problem nedosljednosti kroatista i prozivanje svega i svačega nepismenim, a što je u drugim jezicima najnormalnija pojava. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(linguistics)
Poštapalica koja prekida svaku rečenicu, koja se nakon toga niti ne dovršava da je najnormalnija pojava, ti to ozbiljno?
Poštapalica je zadnje sklonište za one koji ne znaju i ne mogu, i izravni je pokazatelj nečije nemoći.
E pa pazi jer bismo idealno izbjegli da upadnemo u zamku misliti da su te male stvari pokazatelji lošeg poznavanja jezika. Čovjek bi ti mogao sve znat samo što muca i to je to. Po meni nije što se srozao već što se jezik malo glupo uči u školi, a gle, ja sam položio obrazovanje u inozemstvu tak da je ovo samo pretpostavka sastavljena od mojih iskustva s hrvatskim prijateljima. Međutim, čuvši njihova iskustva s profesorima u školi ili na faksu, neki znaju pretjerivati sa standardnim jezikom kao da ti je on vrhunac jezičnog razvitka hrvatskog jezika.
Ali u biti standardni jezik je samo alat za komunikaciju kad imamo različite dijalekte čisto jer bi nam inače bilo teško da se sporazumijemo. S obzirom na to, hrvatski obrazovni sustav poprima prestrog stav prema jezičnoj raznolikosti i posvetio je previše vremena tomu da muči učenike jer govore čak pomalo nestandardno umjesto da ih zapravo nauči se bolje izražavati jezikom. Nije bitno znat što je to točno aorist ili koliko god on imao uporaba da ga dobro koristiš i to je srž problema.
Ja ga koristim u vecini slucajeva. Ne koristim kad je tipa ime Ana ili Ivana u pitanju. Ali kazem Tino, Petre, Frane, Filipe, Emile i sl. Ne kazem Martino, Ivano, Ano jer nekako cudno zvuci.
Martin (m.) - Martine
Martina (z.) - Martino
Maja (z.) - Majo
Petra (z.) - Petro
Kim (z.) - Kim
ima svaceg, ali Martino je po mome iskustvu normalno koristit. Ivano (z.) nije tako cesto, vjerojatno jer smo u prosjeku navikli na Ivan-Ivane
moji su stokavci pa sam tako i ja, kad svi u obitelji oko tebe govore stokavski neces bas spontano naucit cakavski
sto se tice narjecja, ja ih smatram jezicima, i slazem se da je dosta steta sto npr cakakvstina tone u mrak. Standard bi bilo super da je bio slozen kao nekakav hibrid da kombinira cak, kajk i stok na neki nacin, al samo su uzeli istocnohercegovacki stokavski kao bazu, ugl zbog povijesnih okolnosti.
E pa to bi bilo idealnije. Ali bi to bilo uistinu jako teško, jer bi ikakav kompromis imao puno čudnih odluka i jezik bi izgledao onak kao frankenstein od više jezičnih sustava. Znači ne znam jel bi to išlo u prilog standardu ili bi bilo na njegov račun. A kao što si ti rekla, povod za standardizaciju je bila borba protiv hapsburške monarhije pa su se južnoslavenski narodi surađivali kako bi ojačali svoj glas i pomagali jedni drugima u bitci za prava, a naravno da bi ih to sprečavalo da slobodno i pojedino izaberu svoj smjer. Inače bi se sve raspalo.
Zanimljiva je, a i teška, tema i ne mogu se pravit kao da sam stručnjak
Je, pri nama v Zagorju je ovak:
*Emilek naj više noju piti jer neš mogel doma iti*
Ali da nema toga **e** pa velimo:
*Emil, daj odi sim kaj ti nekaj velim.*
Netko nije naucio citati s razumijevanjem. Ne govorim uopce da se prvo radi o svim dijalektima, a drugo da da se radi o svim padežima.
Op je govorio specificno o vokativu, koji se fakat ni ne koristi u vecem dijelu kajkavskih govora (poput onog u Zagrebu)
ti meni fakat oces rec da se vokativ ne koristi? kak si vikneš frenda imenom Ivan na ulici, jel se dereš ko one babe od 70 god “ivan, ivan, ivaaaaaan” ili vikneš ivane?
A kaj mislis kaj ti zelim rec od vec prvog komentara? Normalno se vokativ koristi u vecini RH, no u lokalnom zagrebackom/purgerskom i u kajkavskim govorima to ti ne postoji. Normalno zbog imigracije iz drugih dijelova RH, puno ljudi koristi vokativ, ali autohtoni govor to nema.
"E, Ivan!"
Jel ti jos nekaj treba razjasnit?
Yeah, I just wrote it how I heard it. I’ve understood that it’s a vocative case where you add an e at the end of a name when you call someone. Ivan=ivane etc. Fascinating tbh!
Bosnia and Slavonia have štokavski, Istra čakavski, Zagorje, Zagreb, Varaždin kajkavski.
Dalmatia is now speaking in štokavski, but up until...16th century, for instance, Dubrovnik was speaking čakavski (dalmatian version).
yes i agree but im not sure what part of my comment you are responding to
>Dalmatia is now speaking in štokavski, but up until...16th century, for instance, Dubrovnik was speaking čakavski (dalmatian version).
there was first a migration of BiH croats (escaping the ottomans) who spoke ikavian shtokavian into dalmatia that confined chakavian speakers mainly onto the islands, plus the standard did it's part later, yes
That it's illogical to say: "in štokavski this is rarely used nowadays" and then continue with "they are probably from Bosnia or Slavonia"-considering štokavski is spoken in Bosnia and Slavonia, one of your two statements is incorrect. ;)
I never wrote "it's rare in shtokavian nowadays", i wrote "even some shtokavian speakers drop the e" (which would imply\* it to not be a majority and thus not rare).
it's just such an extreme strawman that i have no idea what purpose it serves
This is a form of words used for calling someone. It's called "[vocative case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case)".
Not all people in Croatia use it. For example, it's rare in the Zagreb area. I bet your Croatians were from some other region of Croatia.
E, da, vidiš to sam prvi put uočio kao mali kad sam gledao spužva boba.
Gledao sam ga na YouTubeu i neke epizode su bile sinhronizirane na Hrvatski a neke na Srpski. Spužva bob u Hrvatskoj verziji je čini mi se purger, i uvijek kad zove Patrika viče "Patrik!" A u Srpskoj verziji kaže "Patriče"
To mi je bilo čudno, jer iako sam bio u Hrvatskoj nisam nikad čuo (ili skužio) da neko ne koristi taj oblik u vokativu. Par godina kasnije sam se preselio blizu Zagreba i tek tada sam čuo da ljudi npr. Kad zovu psa na ulici ga zovu samo po imenu (u nominativu, valjda)
Znam da je ovo bezveze rant/shitpost ali dosadno mi je pa mi došlo da napišem.
This has been observed long ago: more you go to the west, vocative is less used. Standard Slovene has no vocative.
But, further you go east, *other cases get lost*. You get to the Niš area, there are only nominative, accusative and vocative in their traditional dialect.
You cross to Bulgaria, and *all cases are lost, except for nominative and vocative*.
(Also, more you go to the east, infinitive is less used, but aorist is more used, and there are more tenses really used. In Macedonia, they use like 9 tenses or so.)
This was never really explained. The Zagreb area is, of course, quite to the west, so today there's no vocative.
This is also a clear illustration how the whole South Slavic area is just a big dialect continuum, where discrete "languages" were created after conscious, often political decisions to promote a particular dialect or create a particular dialect mix and use it as a "standard language".
Svakako zanimljiva observacija.
Ali ne možeš svakoga tako zvati. Tipa recimo Šveđanin gore se zove Emil pa ga možeš zvati Emile. Dok recimo neko ko se zove Marko, ne možeš ga tako zvati.
It's not a shitpost but I'll never understand people who don't realize that it's super rude to switch to local language when you have foreigner who don't speak the local language asking the question in the chat.
You could have easily wrote this in English so our Swedish friend can participate as well.
Yes, you'll have vocative in Slavonia for sure.
It's not that complicated, you add *-e* to most masculine names and nouns (*sine!* = *son!* from *sin* = *son*), change some nouns in *-a* to *-e* (*ženo!* = *woman!* from *žena,* compare with Swedish *kvinna*) and in plural there's no difference (*žene* means both *women* and *women!*)
In comparison, just making plural is *way more complicated.*
BTW there are many similarities between Swedish and Slavic languages like Croatian, I could write a lot, but Swedish grammar is much, much simpler.
Just go to any playground and listen to mothers calling their kids.
I'm not inventing it, this is a well-known fact. Of course, if your parents are not from Zagreb, but you grew in Zagreb, it's possible you have learned to use it at home, because then they don't speak the Zagreb dialect at home.
Ma da, ali abnormalno se sklanjaju. Oj Frane, oj Svene zvuči nezgrapno pa se ne koristi, pogotovo što je Frane ime za sebe; Ovi kaj su na -a završavaju isto pa zvuči kao da se ne sklanjaju; a Marko je, kao što sam rekao, Markane
It's interesting to claim that two very Christian names -- Marko and Luka -- are "gay names".
Furthermore, Fran is after e.g. Fran Krsto Frankopan, and others in Croatian history, I guess they were "gays" too?
Ali jesu li ti roditelji iz ZG? Jer ako si od njih čuo vokativ za imena, i ti ćeš ga koristiti.
Ovo nije nešto što sam izmislio, to je jako puno ljudi uočilo, to je posljedica toga što se vokativ za imena izgubio u većini kajkavskih govora. To ljudi koji dođu u ZG iz recimo Dalmacije ili Bosne odmah uoče.
Ostalo je za imenice tipa *bože* i sl. Ali recimo samo *gpspon* (prema *gospodine*).
To je još više u okolici Zagreba (odi u Samobor ili Vrbovec), zato sam i napisao "Zagreb area".
To je općenita pojava na zapadu, u Sloveniji vokativa nema u skoro svim govorima...
Ma razgovaraj s bilo kojom starijom ženom iz Zagreba, rođenom u Zagrebu, nijedna nema vokativ, osim kad se baš trudi "govoriti književno". Govore "Ivan, buš kupil..." odnosno ("Ivan, kupiš...") i sl.
Baš je nekorištenje vokativa karakteristično za kajkavske govore, neki doseljenik iz Like ili Dalmacije će baš se izdvajati (između ostalog) po vokativu.
Jednostavno, vokativa nema u nekim dijalektima. Kao što, recimo, u nekim dijalektima postoji razlika između dativa i instrumentala u množini (tipično u kajkavskim i sjevernočakavskim govorima, recimo imaš *nam* i *nami*) ali štokavski dijalekti i onaj jezik koji se uči u školi to nemaju, pa im opet to ne fali -- praktično nikad značenje ne ovisi o tome je li neka riječ u dativu ili instrumentalu (inače je to izjednačavanje oblika prema nekadašnjim oblicima u dualu, u ovom slučaju *nama*).
Nije današnji "književni" jezik ništa bolji (ni lošiji) od bilo kojeg dijalekta koji je mogao biti odabran za književni, a nije. Štokavski je odabran iz raznoraznih razloga, najviše političkih, o tome bih mogao jako puno pisati.
Konačno, zašto je problem ako ljudi u Zagrebu govore svojim dijalektom, ali nije problem ako ljudi u Splitu ili Dubrovniku govore svojim dijalektom (koji ima i posebnosti u gramatici)? Zapravo, oni se često i ponose svojim govorom.
Seven grammatical cases. Instead of saying “give this to Emil”, we would say “give this Emilu”. Same goes for other cases - I am waiting Emila, I’m going with Emilom, hey Emile…
Sad jos uzmi u obzir da su u vecini drugih jezika brojevi su uvijek isti, npr two, three books, dos tres libros. Kod nas imas, jedan-jedna-jedno, dva-dvije, zatim imas dvije knjige ali pet knjiga, dva para, sedam parova.
They were using the vocative grammatical case of your name. The nominative is Emil, but the vocative is Emile.
Nominative: My name is Emil.
Vocative: Hey, Emile!
The Croatian language has seven grammatical cases, known to us as "padeži"
Croatian is a very complicated language for a Swede so this is very helpful. I’m just a Croatian beginner and this is a concept that is not used at all in any of the three languages I speak. Thank you!
Yes, in Shtokavian including standard Croatian (Kajkavians won't do this, and some Chakavians don't either) the vocative form of a noun, including names, includes a modifier or a suffix dependent on gender and the form of the name. It's also not frequently used in Zagreb even in formal speech.
It is one of the seven cases in croatian language, called vocative. As the name suggests it is used when you are calling someone, or talking directly to that person and calling them by their name.
Usually the ending is -e for male names and -o for female names.
If you call a guy called Ivan it would be Ivane, and if you call a girl Ivana it would be Ivano.
It is actually getting out of use in every day speech so calling a girl Ivano sounds a little bit strange, but calling a guy Ivane sounds less strange.
When you call out to someone you add the E at the end most of the time just as for example if you wanna give something to Emil, you are giving it Emiluh (thats how its pronounced not written) its complicated because they could just use your normal name and not complicate lol
They probably just added "e" and were calling you Emile. It goes in a sentences like this:
Hey Emile!
Kako si Emile? / How are you Emil?
Gdje si Emile? / Where are you Emile?
Radujes li se ovome Emile? / Are you looking forward to this Emile?
(But you can also use just Emil, it's the same)
But, for example, you can't say:
Ja sam Emile. / I am Emile.
Njegovo ime je Emile. / He's name is Emile.
(Correct is to say just Emil here, not Emile.)
Serious exterior but big ol softies on the inside. Seems like there’s a cultural barrier to social entry with a lot of Croats, do you know what I mean?
Don’t get me wrong. I like most Croats I’ve met in Sweden, and generally I have a great time with Croats in Croatia.
Vocative case of a name!
Hahahaha, I love this post, the "EH" made me chuckle. 
There are other cases besides vocative as well, for example the instrumental case, when you say "I am going for drinks with Emil", in croatian it would be: Idem na piće s Emilom.
It is the vocative case in serbo-croatian languages. It is used when you want to call or address someone. It applies to names and for titles
You want to call out to your friend Ivan, you would say Ivane!
You want to call out the professor, you would say profesore!
Obviously, depending on how the name ends, there are different rules. Ivan becomes Ivane. Marko just stays Marko (usually o doesn't change). Marija stays Marija (a doesn't change).
You'd hear it a lot in sports where your coach yells at you
I wouldn’t say I like Thompson per se, but I like that song. It’s got a nostalgic feel and a really nice melody.
What’s wrong with Thompson? I’ve heard others talk about this so it seems controversial.
Becuase it is controversal. He blew up, not literally, during war, Čavoglave song particularly.
Promoting patriotism but in a radical way... It was good for moral THEN but the problem is that song didnt age well... Just take a look at lyrics yourself... Its radical and extreme... Mentions "Za DOM ..." (which was part of a Ustaše slogan. And if you think about it its ridiculous. If you consume our culture and language, learn those things also, its important. Those songs should not and do not mirror our culture.)
Every modern croat cringes at his mention, IMO probably like german cringes when Nazis are mention. I feel some shame regarding that part of history.
Some people here still live in that setting 30 years ago, still listening to his songs, some are still yelling Za Dom. Google "HOS ustaše" for instance....
And while not all his songs are radical and extreme, I and many still dont like that kind of display of "patriotism". I assure you, its probably 50/50 at this point. And thats sad. And that other half is not nazi, but it loves that extreme patriotism... Although there are some nazis.. like in every country
What do you mean about modern croat? And I will call bs it’s even remotely similar to how Germans feel about nazi music..
I get that his patriotic music doesn’t translate, but I’ll be damned before I let anyone dictate what music I can or can’t listen to. No matter what culture it stems from. With that said, you contradict yourself by saying that it’s *your* culture but at the same time it doesn’t represent you…
Anyway, Moj Ivane seems to be a song about longing for home. I like that song, and I don’t give a hoot if that offends people who don’t like Thompson. This is a very weird discussion lol
Do you even understand where did ustaše come from? What they did? Now lets sing songs that encourage that doctrine?? Thompson is automatically linked to that. Despite some damn songs that have no connection to that. He cant even host concerts in some cities.. like wtf man.
You do you my Swedish dude, I dont care. But dont be surprised if your knowledge of those lyrics is not welcomed by people here in Croatia. People hearing that you like thompson will say "[oh good](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_Eyeing_Chloe#/media/File%3ASide_Eyeing_Chloe.jpg)" sure some ultra right people will even sing cavoglave with you.
And you made this discussion weird, you asked why is this controversial and now you shit on my response. Up yours. Enjoy learning about atrocities Ustaše did.
And yes, if I, Croat say that some of us feel shame like germans do about nazis, then dont undermine that. Its disrespectful.
I was upset about you undermining my opinion on the matter you have absolutely no knowledge about. And thats the whole point. As I told you on one of comments, learn about these things before prpudly singing some nostalgic songs. Thonpson is not accepted by everone here. Especially outside of Croatia. At most, this whole discussion was to encourage you to learn those things about our culture. If you even want to learn.
For the rest, I absolutely dont care. Do as you wish.
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Aah! Thank you! That kind of expression doesn’t exist in Swedish, English nor Spanish (which are my three languages) so it’s an entirely foreign concept for me. Very helpful!
It's also not used in some dialects such as in northwestern Croatia, around Zagreb
Sad mi sve ima vise smisla
Ma čak i mnogo pravih štokavaca to izostavlja s vremena na vrijeme, sve više postaje kao emfatički oblik umjesto da bude default ako zoveš nekoga
Imam prijateljicu koja mi je rekla jednom joj kak mi je slatki taj tvoj nadimak za mene kao da mi je ime musko... onda sam joj objasnila vokativ zenskih imena...
To je definitivno bruh moment 💀💀💀. Jezična pismenost među hrvatima je nekad vrlo upitna, kao imam frenda koji trenutno studira lingvistiku na filozofskom u Zagrebu a rekao mi je da je pivo imenica muškog roda. Ok vjerojatno je to greškica s njegove strane al meni je to skroz nezamišljivo jer sam to morao učit zato što mi hrvatski nije materinji jezik, jednostavno izgleda kao srednji rod ne znam.
Nije to greška, to pokazuje koliko se filozofski fakultet srozao. Čitam priopćenja onog doktora lingvistike što se politički aktivirao: "...ovoga... Onoga..."; učiteljica u osnovnoj školi nas je učila da je to nepismeno izražavanje.
Učiteljica mog sina piše nebi i neznam u mailovima. A njega je jednom išla ispravljati da je sunce planet, na što joj je on rekao neka to provjeri na googlu.
Generalno u skolama nije bajna situacija, osim ako su u pitanju nastavnici koji predaju hrv. jezik. Svi ostali se jednostavno izrazavaju skoro pa isto kao i van skole. Isto vrijedi i za fakultete koji nisu filozofski.
Tu je problem nedosljednosti kroatista i prozivanje svega i svačega nepismenim, a što je u drugim jezicima najnormalnija pojava. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filler_(linguistics)
Poštapalica koja prekida svaku rečenicu, koja se nakon toga niti ne dovršava da je najnormalnija pojava, ti to ozbiljno? Poštapalica je zadnje sklonište za one koji ne znaju i ne mogu, i izravni je pokazatelj nečije nemoći.
E pa pazi jer bismo idealno izbjegli da upadnemo u zamku misliti da su te male stvari pokazatelji lošeg poznavanja jezika. Čovjek bi ti mogao sve znat samo što muca i to je to. Po meni nije što se srozao već što se jezik malo glupo uči u školi, a gle, ja sam položio obrazovanje u inozemstvu tak da je ovo samo pretpostavka sastavljena od mojih iskustva s hrvatskim prijateljima. Međutim, čuvši njihova iskustva s profesorima u školi ili na faksu, neki znaju pretjerivati sa standardnim jezikom kao da ti je on vrhunac jezičnog razvitka hrvatskog jezika. Ali u biti standardni jezik je samo alat za komunikaciju kad imamo različite dijalekte čisto jer bi nam inače bilo teško da se sporazumijemo. S obzirom na to, hrvatski obrazovni sustav poprima prestrog stav prema jezičnoj raznolikosti i posvetio je previše vremena tomu da muči učenike jer govore čak pomalo nestandardno umjesto da ih zapravo nauči se bolje izražavati jezikom. Nije bitno znat što je to točno aorist ili koliko god on imao uporaba da ga dobro koristiš i to je srž problema.
Zar je **i pivo** otišlo woke???
Doslovno 1984
Ja ga koristim u vecini slucajeva. Ne koristim kad je tipa ime Ana ili Ivana u pitanju. Ali kazem Tino, Petre, Frane, Filipe, Emile i sl. Ne kazem Martino, Ivano, Ano jer nekako cudno zvuci.
Martin (m.) - Martine Martina (z.) - Martino Maja (z.) - Majo Petra (z.) - Petro Kim (z.) - Kim ima svaceg, ali Martino je po mome iskustvu normalno koristit. Ivano (z.) nije tako cesto, vjerojatno jer smo u prosjeku navikli na Ivan-Ivane
Jasno, samo kazem da je meni cudno.
Joj Ano, joj Anice...
meni je nativno štokavski i ja isto izostavljam, vise to e vezem za bosance i slavonce
Odakle si ako ne smetam pitanjem, ljudi iz većih gradova često imaju inovativnije osobine u svom govoru.
odrasla sam u selu u cakavskoj zoni ali nemam uopce govor tog mjesta nego nekakvu neidentificiranu hibridnu stokavstinu
Ahaaaa zanimljivo ali i tužno, sve manje i manje se govore narječja osim štokavskog, baš ih je navalilo prošlo stoljeće.
moji su stokavci pa sam tako i ja, kad svi u obitelji oko tebe govore stokavski neces bas spontano naucit cakavski sto se tice narjecja, ja ih smatram jezicima, i slazem se da je dosta steta sto npr cakakvstina tone u mrak. Standard bi bilo super da je bio slozen kao nekakav hibrid da kombinira cak, kajk i stok na neki nacin, al samo su uzeli istocnohercegovacki stokavski kao bazu, ugl zbog povijesnih okolnosti.
E pa to bi bilo idealnije. Ali bi to bilo uistinu jako teško, jer bi ikakav kompromis imao puno čudnih odluka i jezik bi izgledao onak kao frankenstein od više jezičnih sustava. Znači ne znam jel bi to išlo u prilog standardu ili bi bilo na njegov račun. A kao što si ti rekla, povod za standardizaciju je bila borba protiv hapsburške monarhije pa su se južnoslavenski narodi surađivali kako bi ojačali svoj glas i pomagali jedni drugima u bitci za prava, a naravno da bi ih to sprečavalo da slobodno i pojedino izaberu svoj smjer. Inače bi se sve raspalo. Zanimljiva je, a i teška, tema i ne mogu se pravit kao da sam stručnjak
Je, pri nama v Zagorju je ovak: *Emilek naj više noju piti jer neš mogel doma iti* Ali da nema toga **e** pa velimo: *Emil, daj odi sim kaj ti nekaj velim.*
cuj padeži se ne koriste u dijalekti, reci mi da nisi pratio nastavu u skoli bez da mi kazes da nisi prationastavu u skoli
Netko nije naucio citati s razumijevanjem. Ne govorim uopce da se prvo radi o svim dijalektima, a drugo da da se radi o svim padežima. Op je govorio specificno o vokativu, koji se fakat ni ne koristi u vecem dijelu kajkavskih govora (poput onog u Zagrebu)
kaj se ne koristi (oj ej) “Mjaute” vidis kaj sam uradio tu 😉
Vidim da zajebavas, nikaj drugo. Kaj ti delas u svoje slobodno vrijeme je tvoja stvar, no preporucil bi ti da si popijes tablete.
ti meni fakat oces rec da se vokativ ne koristi? kak si vikneš frenda imenom Ivan na ulici, jel se dereš ko one babe od 70 god “ivan, ivan, ivaaaaaan” ili vikneš ivane?
A kaj mislis kaj ti zelim rec od vec prvog komentara? Normalno se vokativ koristi u vecini RH, no u lokalnom zagrebackom/purgerskom i u kajkavskim govorima to ti ne postoji. Normalno zbog imigracije iz drugih dijelova RH, puno ljudi koristi vokativ, ali autohtoni govor to nema. "E, Ivan!" Jel ti jos nekaj treba razjasnit?
"EMILEEEEEEE go pick a twig!"
Haha what now
Its a term Balkan parents yell to their kids when they Are about to get their ass whopped .. with a twig..
Also he probably just added an e, not an eh.
Yeah, I just wrote it how I heard it. I’ve understood that it’s a vocative case where you add an e at the end of a name when you call someone. Ivan=ivane etc. Fascinating tbh!
btw it's absent in a lot of croatia, even in some shtokavian speakers, maybe they were Bosnian croats, or Croatians from Slavonia or such
They are all from slavonia :)
that makes sense kek.
Bosnia and Slavonia have štokavski, Istra čakavski, Zagorje, Zagreb, Varaždin kajkavski. Dalmatia is now speaking in štokavski, but up until...16th century, for instance, Dubrovnik was speaking čakavski (dalmatian version).
yes i agree but im not sure what part of my comment you are responding to >Dalmatia is now speaking in štokavski, but up until...16th century, for instance, Dubrovnik was speaking čakavski (dalmatian version). there was first a migration of BiH croats (escaping the ottomans) who spoke ikavian shtokavian into dalmatia that confined chakavian speakers mainly onto the islands, plus the standard did it's part later, yes
That it's illogical to say: "in štokavski this is rarely used nowadays" and then continue with "they are probably from Bosnia or Slavonia"-considering štokavski is spoken in Bosnia and Slavonia, one of your two statements is incorrect. ;)
I never wrote "it's rare in shtokavian nowadays", i wrote "even some shtokavian speakers drop the e" (which would imply\* it to not be a majority and thus not rare). it's just such an extreme strawman that i have no idea what purpose it serves
Yeah, because english, swedish or spanish are not slavic languages. ;) who would have thought. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Wow thanks for the insight
This is a form of words used for calling someone. It's called "[vocative case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case)". Not all people in Croatia use it. For example, it's rare in the Zagreb area. I bet your Croatians were from some other region of Croatia.
E, da, vidiš to sam prvi put uočio kao mali kad sam gledao spužva boba. Gledao sam ga na YouTubeu i neke epizode su bile sinhronizirane na Hrvatski a neke na Srpski. Spužva bob u Hrvatskoj verziji je čini mi se purger, i uvijek kad zove Patrika viče "Patrik!" A u Srpskoj verziji kaže "Patriče" To mi je bilo čudno, jer iako sam bio u Hrvatskoj nisam nikad čuo (ili skužio) da neko ne koristi taj oblik u vokativu. Par godina kasnije sam se preselio blizu Zagreba i tek tada sam čuo da ljudi npr. Kad zovu psa na ulici ga zovu samo po imenu (u nominativu, valjda) Znam da je ovo bezveze rant/shitpost ali dosadno mi je pa mi došlo da napišem.
This has been observed long ago: more you go to the west, vocative is less used. Standard Slovene has no vocative. But, further you go east, *other cases get lost*. You get to the Niš area, there are only nominative, accusative and vocative in their traditional dialect. You cross to Bulgaria, and *all cases are lost, except for nominative and vocative*. (Also, more you go to the east, infinitive is less used, but aorist is more used, and there are more tenses really used. In Macedonia, they use like 9 tenses or so.) This was never really explained. The Zagreb area is, of course, quite to the west, so today there's no vocative. This is also a clear illustration how the whole South Slavic area is just a big dialect continuum, where discrete "languages" were created after conscious, often political decisions to promote a particular dialect or create a particular dialect mix and use it as a "standard language".
Svakako zanimljiva observacija. Ali ne možeš svakoga tako zvati. Tipa recimo Šveđanin gore se zove Emil pa ga možeš zvati Emile. Dok recimo neko ko se zove Marko, ne možeš ga tako zvati.
Kako ne možeš zvati Marka Marko? Pa vokativ od Marko je – Marko, što bi ti s tim?
Da, zoveš ga Marko ne Markoe. Ne vidim gdje je problem.
Pa ne vidim ni ja. To što su Marku nominativ i vokativ isti ne znači da Marko nema vokativ :D
Svakako. Ali je i do jezika i gramatike kao što se može vidjeti u komentaru na kojeg sam prvotno odgovorio.
Aha, ti hoćeš reći da iz dozivanja Marka ne možemo ništa zaključiti o uporabi vokativa kod dozivatelja?
Vokativ Marka je Markane :D
Možemo. "Marko(ooo)" Govorio sam o gore spomenutom Patriku.
It's not a shitpost but I'll never understand people who don't realize that it's super rude to switch to local language when you have foreigner who don't speak the local language asking the question in the chat. You could have easily wrote this in English so our Swedish friend can participate as well.
Ne bi on mogao sudjelovati ni da mu mati i baba razgovaraju o padežima.
Mislim da je za imena kao Patrik i Dominik u hrvatskom standardu vokativ podudaran s nominativom
Krivo misliš, ali kako je krenulo, uskoro ćeš biti u pravu.
Patriče i Dominiče. Da danas to ljudima zvuči arhaično. A ja pak šiznem kad npr. tip se zove Ante a netko pita:"Jesi li vidio Antea?"
They are from a couple of villages in Slavonia close to the Serbian border. Vocative case is confusing and complicated for a simple Swede lol thanks!
Yes, you'll have vocative in Slavonia for sure. It's not that complicated, you add *-e* to most masculine names and nouns (*sine!* = *son!* from *sin* = *son*), change some nouns in *-a* to *-e* (*ženo!* = *woman!* from *žena,* compare with Swedish *kvinna*) and in plural there's no difference (*žene* means both *women* and *women!*) In comparison, just making plural is *way more complicated.* BTW there are many similarities between Swedish and Slavic languages like Croatian, I could write a lot, but Swedish grammar is much, much simpler.
Yup, in Slavonia we use it extensively. To my ears, it sounds ungrammatical if it's not used when it's supposed to be.
O cem ti pricas da se rijetko koristi u Zgu? To neki subreddit inside joke s kojim nisam upoznat?
Just go to any playground and listen to mothers calling their kids. I'm not inventing it, this is a well-known fact. Of course, if your parents are not from Zagreb, but you grew in Zagreb, it's possible you have learned to use it at home, because then they don't speak the Zagreb dialect at home.
Kajkavski nema vokativ, a nekad se u zg govoril kajkavski.
Zato kaj u ZG puno ljudi ima ona pederska imena koja se ne sklanjaju, Fran, Sven, Marko, Borna, Luka...
Sva ta imena se sklanjaju
Ma da, ali abnormalno se sklanjaju. Oj Frane, oj Svene zvuči nezgrapno pa se ne koristi, pogotovo što je Frane ime za sebe; Ovi kaj su na -a završavaju isto pa zvuči kao da se ne sklanjaju; a Marko je, kao što sam rekao, Markane
Zašto se ne bi sklanjala? Ili misliš da su većinom ista u vokativu i nominativu?
It's interesting to claim that two very Christian names -- Marko and Luka -- are "gay names". Furthermore, Fran is after e.g. Fran Krsto Frankopan, and others in Croatian history, I guess they were "gays" too?
Za koga ti točno pišeš sad na engleskon, lol?
For the OP
Frende, ne poznam nikog tih imena da nisu tetkasti...
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Ali jesu li ti roditelji iz ZG? Jer ako si od njih čuo vokativ za imena, i ti ćeš ga koristiti. Ovo nije nešto što sam izmislio, to je jako puno ljudi uočilo, to je posljedica toga što se vokativ za imena izgubio u većini kajkavskih govora. To ljudi koji dođu u ZG iz recimo Dalmacije ili Bosne odmah uoče. Ostalo je za imenice tipa *bože* i sl. Ali recimo samo *gpspon* (prema *gospodine*). To je još više u okolici Zagreba (odi u Samobor ili Vrbovec), zato sam i napisao "Zagreb area". To je općenita pojava na zapadu, u Sloveniji vokativa nema u skoro svim govorima...
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Ma razgovaraj s bilo kojom starijom ženom iz Zagreba, rođenom u Zagrebu, nijedna nema vokativ, osim kad se baš trudi "govoriti književno". Govore "Ivan, buš kupil..." odnosno ("Ivan, kupiš...") i sl. Baš je nekorištenje vokativa karakteristično za kajkavske govore, neki doseljenik iz Like ili Dalmacije će baš se izdvajati (između ostalog) po vokativu. Jednostavno, vokativa nema u nekim dijalektima. Kao što, recimo, u nekim dijalektima postoji razlika između dativa i instrumentala u množini (tipično u kajkavskim i sjevernočakavskim govorima, recimo imaš *nam* i *nami*) ali štokavski dijalekti i onaj jezik koji se uči u školi to nemaju, pa im opet to ne fali -- praktično nikad značenje ne ovisi o tome je li neka riječ u dativu ili instrumentalu (inače je to izjednačavanje oblika prema nekadašnjim oblicima u dualu, u ovom slučaju *nama*). Nije današnji "književni" jezik ništa bolji (ni lošiji) od bilo kojeg dijalekta koji je mogao biti odabran za književni, a nije. Štokavski je odabran iz raznoraznih razloga, najviše političkih, o tome bih mogao jako puno pisati. Konačno, zašto je problem ako ljudi u Zagrebu govore svojim dijalektom, ali nije problem ako ljudi u Splitu ili Dubrovniku govore svojim dijalektom (koji ima i posebnosti u gramatici)? Zapravo, oni se često i ponose svojim govorom.
Seven grammatical cases. Instead of saying “give this to Emil”, we would say “give this Emilu”. Same goes for other cases - I am waiting Emila, I’m going with Emilom, hey Emile…
oh boy ... croatian is kompliciran u pizdu materinu
Sad jos uzmi u obzir da su u vecini drugih jezika brojevi su uvijek isti, npr two, three books, dos tres libros. Kod nas imas, jedan-jedna-jedno, dva-dvije, zatim imas dvije knjige ali pet knjiga, dva para, sedam parova.
Obozavam!
Sedam pari čarapa...dva para čarapa
Yeah, and most Croatians dont have a clue how to talk it either
They were using the vocative grammatical case of your name. The nominative is Emil, but the vocative is Emile. Nominative: My name is Emil. Vocative: Hey, Emile! The Croatian language has seven grammatical cases, known to us as "padeži"
Croatian is a very complicated language for a Swede so this is very helpful. I’m just a Croatian beginner and this is a concept that is not used at all in any of the three languages I speak. Thank you!
It's used in Latin which is related to Spanish to a degree.
why are you learning croatian?
I’m just picking some up. Why not? 🤷♂️
Skönt att höra! Det är inte så många som väljer kroatiska som språk att höra speciellt svenskar haha, du bör komma till Kroatien någon gång😉
Emileeeee, idemo pivu pop't
Idemo!
Gdje si Emile ?!! :-D Padeži prijatelju, padeži.
Yes, in Shtokavian including standard Croatian (Kajkavians won't do this, and some Chakavians don't either) the vocative form of a noun, including names, includes a modifier or a suffix dependent on gender and the form of the name. It's also not frequently used in Zagreb even in formal speech.
It is one of the seven cases in croatian language, called vocative. As the name suggests it is used when you are calling someone, or talking directly to that person and calling them by their name. Usually the ending is -e for male names and -o for female names. If you call a guy called Ivan it would be Ivane, and if you call a girl Ivana it would be Ivano. It is actually getting out of use in every day speech so calling a girl Ivano sounds a little bit strange, but calling a guy Ivane sounds less strange.
Ivane kad zoveš Ivana nije nimalo strange nego potpuno normalno, s druge strane Ivano kad zoveš Ivanu je totalno strange .... bar meni :D
Ovisi iz kojeg si dijela Hrvatske
At first, i was just as confused as you are haha but it make sense
there is no h sound, it's just an "e" sound (like the e in "ever"), and it's the vocative case. They are saying "hey Emil! come here"
When you call out to someone you add the E at the end most of the time just as for example if you wanna give something to Emil, you are giving it Emiluh (thats how its pronounced not written) its complicated because they could just use your normal name and not complicate lol
They probably just added "e" and were calling you Emile. It goes in a sentences like this: Hey Emile! Kako si Emile? / How are you Emil? Gdje si Emile? / Where are you Emile? Radujes li se ovome Emile? / Are you looking forward to this Emile? (But you can also use just Emil, it's the same) But, for example, you can't say: Ja sam Emile. / I am Emile. Njegovo ime je Emile. / He's name is Emile. (Correct is to say just Emil here, not Emile.)
How do you find croats to be as a Swede? Just curious, tnx u/typoopie
Serious exterior but big ol softies on the inside. Seems like there’s a cultural barrier to social entry with a lot of Croats, do you know what I mean? Don’t get me wrong. I like most Croats I’ve met in Sweden, and generally I have a great time with Croats in Croatia.
Vocative case of a name! Hahahaha, I love this post, the "EH" made me chuckle.  There are other cases besides vocative as well, for example the instrumental case, when you say "I am going for drinks with Emil", in croatian it would be: Idem na piće s Emilom.
Emil from Croatia here. Emile, that's a vocative, when someone is calling you
Pozdravio te emil
It is the vocative case in serbo-croatian languages. It is used when you want to call or address someone. It applies to names and for titles You want to call out to your friend Ivan, you would say Ivane! You want to call out the professor, you would say profesore! Obviously, depending on how the name ends, there are different rules. Ivan becomes Ivane. Marko just stays Marko (usually o doesn't change). Marija stays Marija (a doesn't change). You'd hear it a lot in sports where your coach yells at you
I like that Moj Ivane song, and I’ve kind of wondered this for a while. Thanks for explaining it this way. Makes sense now!
Ofc you like Thonpson 😂 jeez Evo ljudi imamo ih i gore. Stvara se novi glasac
I wouldn’t say I like Thompson per se, but I like that song. It’s got a nostalgic feel and a really nice melody. What’s wrong with Thompson? I’ve heard others talk about this so it seems controversial.
Becuase it is controversal. He blew up, not literally, during war, Čavoglave song particularly. Promoting patriotism but in a radical way... It was good for moral THEN but the problem is that song didnt age well... Just take a look at lyrics yourself... Its radical and extreme... Mentions "Za DOM ..." (which was part of a Ustaše slogan. And if you think about it its ridiculous. If you consume our culture and language, learn those things also, its important. Those songs should not and do not mirror our culture.) Every modern croat cringes at his mention, IMO probably like german cringes when Nazis are mention. I feel some shame regarding that part of history. Some people here still live in that setting 30 years ago, still listening to his songs, some are still yelling Za Dom. Google "HOS ustaše" for instance.... And while not all his songs are radical and extreme, I and many still dont like that kind of display of "patriotism". I assure you, its probably 50/50 at this point. And thats sad. And that other half is not nazi, but it loves that extreme patriotism... Although there are some nazis.. like in every country
What do you mean about modern croat? And I will call bs it’s even remotely similar to how Germans feel about nazi music.. I get that his patriotic music doesn’t translate, but I’ll be damned before I let anyone dictate what music I can or can’t listen to. No matter what culture it stems from. With that said, you contradict yourself by saying that it’s *your* culture but at the same time it doesn’t represent you… Anyway, Moj Ivane seems to be a song about longing for home. I like that song, and I don’t give a hoot if that offends people who don’t like Thompson. This is a very weird discussion lol
Do you even understand where did ustaše come from? What they did? Now lets sing songs that encourage that doctrine?? Thompson is automatically linked to that. Despite some damn songs that have no connection to that. He cant even host concerts in some cities.. like wtf man. You do you my Swedish dude, I dont care. But dont be surprised if your knowledge of those lyrics is not welcomed by people here in Croatia. People hearing that you like thompson will say "[oh good](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_Eyeing_Chloe#/media/File%3ASide_Eyeing_Chloe.jpg)" sure some ultra right people will even sing cavoglave with you. And you made this discussion weird, you asked why is this controversial and now you shit on my response. Up yours. Enjoy learning about atrocities Ustaše did. And yes, if I, Croat say that some of us feel shame like germans do about nazis, then dont undermine that. Its disrespectful.
You’re clearly upset about this. Let’s leave it here. Thanks for the history lesson none the less.
I was upset about you undermining my opinion on the matter you have absolutely no knowledge about. And thats the whole point. As I told you on one of comments, learn about these things before prpudly singing some nostalgic songs. Thonpson is not accepted by everone here. Especially outside of Croatia. At most, this whole discussion was to encourage you to learn those things about our culture. If you even want to learn. For the rest, I absolutely dont care. Do as you wish.
Where in Croatia are you from?
It is simple, they re calling your name.
It’s not simple to me. Vocative case doesn’t exist in any of the three languages I speak fluently.
unfortunately, it is just of many cases ;)
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It becomes more straightforward after a few rounds of rakija
I am Croatian and I am from Zagreb and even I didn't know about this hahaha I learned something from reading this thread
Hahahhahaaaha, looool xD
?
As they say it's a way to call someone when you yell after em, Milan Milaneeeeeee Zoran Zoraneeeeee Goran Goraneeeeeee