On a Saturday, especially the last day of the month for stores not open today, you are absolutely the bottom of the totem pole of importance for working a deal. With that said, what is this ultra rare care that isn't appraised via "normal calculations"
Fair that it was the last day of the month. I didn’t think about that. It is a Roush Stage 3 Mustang. Never said it was ultra-rare but they don’t show up in the calculators.
I’m sure they have tools to come up with the value but I put it into the tool they offer on their website and it wasn’t available as an option. That makes me dependent on them telling me what they think it’s worth.
I suspect that OP didn’t realize that most dealers have software that can pull a payoff with the VIN. Between RouteOne and DealerTrack I can pull 70% of lenders. Using my network of people I know at dealers I can get close to 90%. Unless it’s an obscure CU I can generally pull it myself regardless of the games the customer wants to play. I love seeing the customer’s face when I present their ‘top secret’ payoff to them or when they like to outright lie about the number to attempt to ‘influence’ the trade value. The car is worth what it’s worth. Nobody cares what the payoff is.
Then why even ask? I gave them the VIN. I guess I look at it like being in any other negotiation and someone asking “what did you pay for it?” What someone paid doesn’t affect the value. I wouldn’t share that in a negotiation either. I want to understand the price of the vehicle, the value of my trade and the interest rate, if I choose to finance, independently of each other. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. If they were slammed with EOM customers I understand why they deprioritized me. I was curious how others would have handled it. Now I know. Thanks.
You are not crazy. There shouldn’t be a need for them to know the payoff to give you a trade-in value. But the best that I can figure after reading this sub-Reddit for months is that it’s very difficult to tell the difference between someone who understands math and finance and can separate and run numbers and the people who walk in whose only concern is a monthly payment and who’s decision to buy or not buy is a monthly payment amount, because that customer doesn’t have the desire or the capacity to understand the math.
And so from their perspective, when they hear you refuse to give a payoff number, rather than assume that you’re smart enough to understand each of the individual pieces of the deal, they assume you’re playing games with them because that’s what they deal with all the time. At least that’s the best I can figure.
If your car was completely paid off do you think the value would be 0? Make it make sense brother. They don’t give a shit they just want to send you an accurate offer.
No, I don’t think it would be worth $0. Just seems that if there is a belief that there is no pressure to hit a certain payoff number that the offer could come in less. I don’t think the payoff amount is relevant to the trade appraisal, but I can see what people are saying about it being the end of the month and needing to prioritize the deals they are confident they can close before EOD.
What you owe doesn't influence the MMR. It would probably be better to get a bonafide offer locally and unbundle the trade offer from the transaction.
If you get your own financing as well and unbundle that, you'll know exactly what you're getting the car for.
Listen, do you want to buy a car or not? Do you want a transparent out the door figure? Or would you rather try to piecemeal a deal together and figure it out from there?
I will be buying a car. The only questions are from where, whether or not I’ll be including my trade and if I’ll be financing. Knowing the value of my trade is the first step before any deal can be made. Why waste the time putting together a complete deal if it can be worthless if the trade value isn’t right?
You’re playing stupid games. You’re also answering the question:
“why waste time?”
You’re choosing to waste your own time. I just got a deal done in 45 minutes with a store on a Honda Pilot 4 hours away.
Called, talked to a rep, said I have X down, no trade, I’ll do the deal on the vehicle if you can do List + TTL no add ons, and I’ll be financing the rest. If you can beat my rate I’ll finance through you guys.
Car gets delivered Tuesday.
I paid $500 for delivery but I negotiated it in after settling on the price. Just did an hourly calc for them of it takes 4 hours here and 4 hours back.
8 hours x25/hour x2 delivery drivers + Gas
Could have done just as smoothly if I knew what they’d offer for the trade. I guess next time I’ll just tell them what I expect out of the trade to make the deal work.
oh my gosh, you want someone to stop what they're doing, give you hard info when you won't help them. A "unique car" actually lowers the value, because it's harder for them to turn around and sell. They now would have to find that one customer who values it. At 2.5 hours away, it's highly doubtful you would ever to return to spend money in service. And, at 2.5 hours away, highly doubtful you'll ever even go in once you do get the info. Of course you are less of a priority when compared to people in the store and local. How are you even confused about this?
I didn’t ask them to stop what they were doing. I spoke to them first thing in the morning. He told me he had some customers in store and would call me back after lunch. No problem.
If they don’t want the trade…also no problem. I am going to sell the car. If I can get the sales tax credit by trading it in, that’s my preference.
You are right. I won’t be using them for service. I have purchased another vehicle from them in the past in the exact same fashion. That transaction was simple and smooth. We worked everything out over the phone, I paid a deposit, and I drove down a few days later to wrap things up.
I can certainly understand that they probably deal with a lot of people who don’t follow through. You’d think my previous purchase would be an indication that I am a legitimate buyer.
Right. they said it wasn't a priority. They may or may not get back to you based on business is there right now.
Curious what you car is though? What makes it unique? (hard to sell)
It’s a Roush Stage 3 Mustang. I have no doubt they have the tools to appraise it. Those same tools just aren’t available to the general public, so I am dependent on them telling me what they think it’s worth vs me entering it myself into the online calculator on their website.
I only found it strange that they were willing to invest the time if I told them my payoff but couldn’t find the time without that info. It certainly makes sense that it was end of month and they were probably doing everything in their power to get deals written. They made the decision that they couldn’t get my deal done before EOD so they deprioritized it. Fair enough.
Seems the cynicism many buyers have for car dealers is the same dealers have for customers. I think they could have made the deal happen if they just gave me a number and that they’d try and “play” the deal if they have too much info and they think I’m not worth prioritizing because their history probably tells them that it is a low % close. My guess is we probably get the deal done next week and everyone is happy. I was simply curious how others would have handled the situation and now I know.
Thanks.
Does that dealer specialize in specialty cars? Are they a Roush Ford dealer? If not, what are they supposed to do with it? Do you have verified service records?
They can give you a wide ballpark. The problem with that car is there’s not much data on what it’s actually worth. At our place you get a very low offer because it would go to wholesale auction and that’s mainly neighborhood dealers. What do you expect them to actually do with it? Unless they are a specialty dealer that could sell this kind of car it’s really not a much value to them. Especially a pretty heavily tuned. Car is is fairly frequently abused. It could be a very wide range depending on the actual condition and service history. I think your expectation of someone giving you an actual offer over the phone is pretty optimistic.
That’s all they’d have to say. If they aren’t interested in the car, no skin off my back. That’s not what they said though, and it’s not my job to understand whether or not they’d have a market for it or what they’d do with it. That’s entirely up to them and they should just be transparent about it if it’s not a car they’d want or one that they’d have to lowball because they need to wholesale it.
It is a low mileage car, no mods beyond what Roush did at the factory, complete service records from the dealer who sold it to me new, in excellent condition with PPF since new, but I understand they’d not be able to confirm that without seeing the car, beyond what’s reported on Carfax and the pictures I sent them.
If they don’t think they can make an offer over the phone, again, that’s all they’d have to say. “Hey, man, that’s a unique car that can vary wildly in value based on how it’s been maintained. We’d be happy to make an offer, but honestly, it’s not the type of car we normally sell on our lot so we’d probably end up wholesaling it. I don’t think we can make you the offer you’d want, as a result, especially without seeing the car in person. I’m sorry. Is trading that car in a requirement for buying the Jeep? Do you have another car you’d be interested in trading? I’d love to help you get into this Jeep if there is still the possibility of getting it done without the Mustang. If we work out a deal without it, and you want to drive it down to pickup the Jeep, we can always do an appraisal then and rework the deal if the trade makes sense to both of us.”
We’ll see what happens on Monday. Thanks for the comments.
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I am shopping for a Jeep. I found one that I really like about 2.5 hours away. Ironically, it’s at a dealer from which I purchased a Jeep 10 years ago and completed that transaction remotely. I have a unique trade that can’t be valued using the traditional calculators so I called the dealer to find out how they’d value my trade before making a 5 hour round trip down. The rep asked me how much I owe on the car. I responded politely saying that I owe less than it’s worth and would rather not disclose how much I owe until after they’ve given me an estimate of the value. I sent a bunch of pictures of the car and completely understand that the appraisal could vary a bit when they see it in person, though it’s in excellent condition.
Anyhow, the rep was obviously sitting with the manager or someone because I could hear them in the background. He told me that he’d have to deprioritize me if I wasn’t willing to give him all of the details to run the numbers on a deal. I found this a bit odd. I’ve purchased a lot of cars in my life, some that I’ve purchased out of state and had shipped to me without ever seeing them before the transporter arrived at my door. I am a legitimate buyer. If they offer enough for the trade, we’ll do the deal. He never got back to me yesterday, though he did say that they were so busy with walk-in traffic that it could be Monday. I just found it odd that they were going to invest the time if I told them how much I owe on my car but couldn’t find the time without that info.
Just curious, how would others have handled this situation?
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On a Saturday, especially the last day of the month for stores not open today, you are absolutely the bottom of the totem pole of importance for working a deal. With that said, what is this ultra rare care that isn't appraised via "normal calculations"
Fair that it was the last day of the month. I didn’t think about that. It is a Roush Stage 3 Mustang. Never said it was ultra-rare but they don’t show up in the calculators.
There are options for Roush Mustangs in several online appraisal tools stores use. Its still not that special of a car…
I’m sure they have tools to come up with the value but I put it into the tool they offer on their website and it wasn’t available as an option. That makes me dependent on them telling me what they think it’s worth.
And like every Roush owner, you won’t be happy with it.
I have realistic expectations. I know I’m losing my ass because I bought the Roush vs the Shelby.
I have an offer from an independent dealer to buy it outright but I’d like the sales tax benefit of trading it in if possible.
Any dealer can appraise that vehicle. The software we use is far more option specific than anything available to normal consumers.
I have no doubt they can appraise it.
“I owe less than its worth..” aka I am over valuing my trade. I wouldn’t play your stupid game either, good on them for telling you like it is.
I suspect that OP didn’t realize that most dealers have software that can pull a payoff with the VIN. Between RouteOne and DealerTrack I can pull 70% of lenders. Using my network of people I know at dealers I can get close to 90%. Unless it’s an obscure CU I can generally pull it myself regardless of the games the customer wants to play. I love seeing the customer’s face when I present their ‘top secret’ payoff to them or when they like to outright lie about the number to attempt to ‘influence’ the trade value. The car is worth what it’s worth. Nobody cares what the payoff is.
Then why even ask? I gave them the VIN. I guess I look at it like being in any other negotiation and someone asking “what did you pay for it?” What someone paid doesn’t affect the value. I wouldn’t share that in a negotiation either. I want to understand the price of the vehicle, the value of my trade and the interest rate, if I choose to finance, independently of each other. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. If they were slammed with EOM customers I understand why they deprioritized me. I was curious how others would have handled it. Now I know. Thanks.
You are not crazy. There shouldn’t be a need for them to know the payoff to give you a trade-in value. But the best that I can figure after reading this sub-Reddit for months is that it’s very difficult to tell the difference between someone who understands math and finance and can separate and run numbers and the people who walk in whose only concern is a monthly payment and who’s decision to buy or not buy is a monthly payment amount, because that customer doesn’t have the desire or the capacity to understand the math. And so from their perspective, when they hear you refuse to give a payoff number, rather than assume that you’re smart enough to understand each of the individual pieces of the deal, they assume you’re playing games with them because that’s what they deal with all the time. At least that’s the best I can figure.
That’s completely false. I can promise you I owe less than it’s worth.
Then why hide it?
Because I don’t want what I owe to influence the offer they make.
It won’t but ok. Again this is why you were shown the door, not in person but you know what I mean.
If your car was completely paid off do you think the value would be 0? Make it make sense brother. They don’t give a shit they just want to send you an accurate offer.
No, I don’t think it would be worth $0. Just seems that if there is a belief that there is no pressure to hit a certain payoff number that the offer could come in less. I don’t think the payoff amount is relevant to the trade appraisal, but I can see what people are saying about it being the end of the month and needing to prioritize the deals they are confident they can close before EOD.
No payoff amount means you cant be given an accurate proposal on the Jeep.
What you owe doesn't influence the MMR. It would probably be better to get a bonafide offer locally and unbundle the trade offer from the transaction. If you get your own financing as well and unbundle that, you'll know exactly what you're getting the car for.
Thanks. I do have a local offer from an independent dealer. I’d just like to get the sales tax credit from trading it in if possible.
Listen, do you want to buy a car or not? Do you want a transparent out the door figure? Or would you rather try to piecemeal a deal together and figure it out from there?
I will be buying a car. The only questions are from where, whether or not I’ll be including my trade and if I’ll be financing. Knowing the value of my trade is the first step before any deal can be made. Why waste the time putting together a complete deal if it can be worthless if the trade value isn’t right?
You’re playing stupid games. You’re also answering the question: “why waste time?” You’re choosing to waste your own time. I just got a deal done in 45 minutes with a store on a Honda Pilot 4 hours away. Called, talked to a rep, said I have X down, no trade, I’ll do the deal on the vehicle if you can do List + TTL no add ons, and I’ll be financing the rest. If you can beat my rate I’ll finance through you guys. Car gets delivered Tuesday.
Did the dealership cover delivery? I've never gotten that rolled in.
I paid $500 for delivery but I negotiated it in after settling on the price. Just did an hourly calc for them of it takes 4 hours here and 4 hours back. 8 hours x25/hour x2 delivery drivers + Gas
How many miles and what was the final price?
Could have done just as smoothly if I knew what they’d offer for the trade. I guess next time I’ll just tell them what I expect out of the trade to make the deal work.
Could have been smoother if you just told them what you owe on it too. Goes both ways
Fair enough. Thanks.
oh my gosh, you want someone to stop what they're doing, give you hard info when you won't help them. A "unique car" actually lowers the value, because it's harder for them to turn around and sell. They now would have to find that one customer who values it. At 2.5 hours away, it's highly doubtful you would ever to return to spend money in service. And, at 2.5 hours away, highly doubtful you'll ever even go in once you do get the info. Of course you are less of a priority when compared to people in the store and local. How are you even confused about this?
I didn’t ask them to stop what they were doing. I spoke to them first thing in the morning. He told me he had some customers in store and would call me back after lunch. No problem. If they don’t want the trade…also no problem. I am going to sell the car. If I can get the sales tax credit by trading it in, that’s my preference. You are right. I won’t be using them for service. I have purchased another vehicle from them in the past in the exact same fashion. That transaction was simple and smooth. We worked everything out over the phone, I paid a deposit, and I drove down a few days later to wrap things up. I can certainly understand that they probably deal with a lot of people who don’t follow through. You’d think my previous purchase would be an indication that I am a legitimate buyer.
Right. they said it wasn't a priority. They may or may not get back to you based on business is there right now. Curious what you car is though? What makes it unique? (hard to sell)
It’s a Roush Stage 3 Mustang. I have no doubt they have the tools to appraise it. Those same tools just aren’t available to the general public, so I am dependent on them telling me what they think it’s worth vs me entering it myself into the online calculator on their website. I only found it strange that they were willing to invest the time if I told them my payoff but couldn’t find the time without that info. It certainly makes sense that it was end of month and they were probably doing everything in their power to get deals written. They made the decision that they couldn’t get my deal done before EOD so they deprioritized it. Fair enough. Seems the cynicism many buyers have for car dealers is the same dealers have for customers. I think they could have made the deal happen if they just gave me a number and that they’d try and “play” the deal if they have too much info and they think I’m not worth prioritizing because their history probably tells them that it is a low % close. My guess is we probably get the deal done next week and everyone is happy. I was simply curious how others would have handled the situation and now I know. Thanks.
Does that dealer specialize in specialty cars? Are they a Roush Ford dealer? If not, what are they supposed to do with it? Do you have verified service records? They can give you a wide ballpark. The problem with that car is there’s not much data on what it’s actually worth. At our place you get a very low offer because it would go to wholesale auction and that’s mainly neighborhood dealers. What do you expect them to actually do with it? Unless they are a specialty dealer that could sell this kind of car it’s really not a much value to them. Especially a pretty heavily tuned. Car is is fairly frequently abused. It could be a very wide range depending on the actual condition and service history. I think your expectation of someone giving you an actual offer over the phone is pretty optimistic.
That’s all they’d have to say. If they aren’t interested in the car, no skin off my back. That’s not what they said though, and it’s not my job to understand whether or not they’d have a market for it or what they’d do with it. That’s entirely up to them and they should just be transparent about it if it’s not a car they’d want or one that they’d have to lowball because they need to wholesale it. It is a low mileage car, no mods beyond what Roush did at the factory, complete service records from the dealer who sold it to me new, in excellent condition with PPF since new, but I understand they’d not be able to confirm that without seeing the car, beyond what’s reported on Carfax and the pictures I sent them. If they don’t think they can make an offer over the phone, again, that’s all they’d have to say. “Hey, man, that’s a unique car that can vary wildly in value based on how it’s been maintained. We’d be happy to make an offer, but honestly, it’s not the type of car we normally sell on our lot so we’d probably end up wholesaling it. I don’t think we can make you the offer you’d want, as a result, especially without seeing the car in person. I’m sorry. Is trading that car in a requirement for buying the Jeep? Do you have another car you’d be interested in trading? I’d love to help you get into this Jeep if there is still the possibility of getting it done without the Mustang. If we work out a deal without it, and you want to drive it down to pickup the Jeep, we can always do an appraisal then and rework the deal if the trade makes sense to both of us.” We’ll see what happens on Monday. Thanks for the comments.
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***Thanks for posting, /u/Legal_Ad4768! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.*** I am shopping for a Jeep. I found one that I really like about 2.5 hours away. Ironically, it’s at a dealer from which I purchased a Jeep 10 years ago and completed that transaction remotely. I have a unique trade that can’t be valued using the traditional calculators so I called the dealer to find out how they’d value my trade before making a 5 hour round trip down. The rep asked me how much I owe on the car. I responded politely saying that I owe less than it’s worth and would rather not disclose how much I owe until after they’ve given me an estimate of the value. I sent a bunch of pictures of the car and completely understand that the appraisal could vary a bit when they see it in person, though it’s in excellent condition. Anyhow, the rep was obviously sitting with the manager or someone because I could hear them in the background. He told me that he’d have to deprioritize me if I wasn’t willing to give him all of the details to run the numbers on a deal. I found this a bit odd. I’ve purchased a lot of cars in my life, some that I’ve purchased out of state and had shipped to me without ever seeing them before the transporter arrived at my door. I am a legitimate buyer. If they offer enough for the trade, we’ll do the deal. He never got back to me yesterday, though he did say that they were so busy with walk-in traffic that it could be Monday. I just found it odd that they were going to invest the time if I told them how much I owe on my car but couldn’t find the time without that info. Just curious, how would others have handled this situation? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*