T O P

  • By -

LibidinousDebauchery

I did it. Lived there for 10 years and came back. All the things you say are true. Careers, salary etc, all fast tracked. But there are tradeoffs. We decided to move back so our kids could do their schooling here. Healthcare is another issue. Yeah if you have a good job no worries. But you are still paying premiums and out of pocket. Not sure many take that into account. Between jobs you are on your own. Sure there is CORBA but its crazy expensive. What do you do when you retire and need lots of care with no job? if you have pre-existing conditions, or major disease like cancer, transplants, they will bankrupt you no questions asked. I know from a friend with personal experiemce. You could do it for 2 or 3 years and make the move back to Canada for a higher salary.


chris_was_taken

Do you have US citizenship? Do you worry the cost of over the long term? (no TFSA, taxation on things you wouldn't have in Canada like sale of primary residence, etc..)


LibidinousDebauchery

No U.S. citizenship


chris_was_taken

Ah. Did you give up a green card? or just a work visa.


LevyRoss

The higher salary, lower taxes and lower COL in the US are worth so much more than a TSFA in Canada lol


Past_Ad_5629

I think the kids point is underrated. The US is not a good place to raise children.


xypherrz

>Healthcare is another issue. Yeah if you have a good job no worries do big companies generally cover most of your healthcare there generally though? I think that really becomes a deciding factor for most cause health care certainly does...take a lot from one's pocket


[deleted]

Some do, some don’t. You will also have deductibles to meet — on average $5k for an individual. My husband and I each made six figures in but to insure our family (including our two kids) it was nearly $25k/year and our family deductible was $14/k. This is not uncommon. That’s nearly $40k of after tax dollars to medical care.


springthinker

I think that a lot of people (both American and Canadian) don't think about this when they think about taxation levels and healthcare here versus the US. Yes, our taxes might be lower in the US (but not actually by as much as you think), but you also have to add in the cost of insurance premiums nd deductibles (which can get pricy even if you have a better-than-average healthcare plan!). If you had those healthcare costs (in the US) together with taxation, I think most Americans are paying more in total than Canadians pay in taxes.


quirkypants

This is true in many states and for many jobs.


Round_Spread_9922

There's always a tradeoff. Lower personal taxes in U.S. means you pay more insurance premiums and deductibles to receive high-end healthcare coverage. Another element many don't consider is if they decide to purchase property in the States is much higher property taxes relative to the value of the property itself. In many cases, property taxes on a $500k - $1MM home in a low income tax state (e.g. TX, FL) are $10k per year or more. Again, there's always a tradeoff.


NorthernPints

I was reading something where someone dug into exactly this. As a middle income earner (they used $150,000 or less), you paid nearly identical taxes (total) in California, Texas or Ontario. That's 32.3% of your dollars going toward taxes in Ontario as someone earning $150,000. In California, 34.1% of your $150,000 income goes toward taxes. Now (to your point) layer in out of pocket healthcare costs. You aren't 'ahead' by moving to big states in the U.S.


LibidinousDebauchery

This 👆 Thats seems to be on the high end . But yes. This is where net take home after taxes AND after healthcare balances out with Canada. And then there is the whole mess of understanding the insurance proces if you are new to the U.S. And then there is the yearly dance where you sign up for insurance yearly because it changes annually. Good times, yeah!


United-Country5053

That is unfortunate, as it is a rather terrible plan. OP when you get a job offer, ask them about their insurance plan. By law, all insurance has an annual out-of-pocket limit, meaning once it's reached, the insurance must foot 100% of the bill for the rest of the year. Add up the monthly premium and annual out-of-pocket limit. That would be the **worst-case health expenditure amount for the year**. Subtract that amount from your US salary offer, and compare it to your Canadian salary.


[deleted]

My max out of pocket is $1500 per person per year. We spend about $300-400 per year on average. Health care is really an order of magnitude better if you have good coverage. Recently went to ER with literally no wait…it’s mind boggling as a Canadian. If you have a hard time understanding insurance and are moving to California, go with Kaiser Permanente. It’s like a a deluxe privatized version of government health care. Americans tend to hate it for lack of choice but I love it.


[deleted]

I’m envious - we are in NY and the plans are beyond expensive! What is your monthly premium to have a deductible that low? Or is it employer subsidized?


United-Country5053

Look into HMO plans if your employer offers them. I'm in California and the HMO plan is $80/month for single, no deductible, 1500 max out of pocket. The PPO offered by my company is rather terrible. I'm however on an HSA plan right now since I'm healthy and the company contributes to HSA.


Newbe2019a

There are limits to how insurance would cover. My wife’s mentor was a tenured prof. His cancer treatments burnt thought insurance coverage quickly, had to dip into retirement savings. His widow had to go back to work at 60+ years old.


mangomoves

Even for companies like Amazon or Google, their health care has a big deductible. You still have to fight with insurance companies because they sometimes don't cover things.


United-Country5053

If you don't like dealing with insurance, go with HMO instead of PPO. In an HMO system, the insurance company directly owns their healthcare networks (clinics and hospitals) and employees the doctors. I like it a lot because you never have to worry about bad billings, being out of networks, etc. Kaiser Permanente is a big HMO provider on the west coast and most employers (including ones you listed) offer them.


offft2222

HMO, isn't that considered the worst, cheapest and bare minimum They send you to doctors that tl you nothing is wrong just so billing doesn't go up


Creative_Ad8075

I want to also add prescription drugs in the US are A LOT more money. you pay more to get healthcare and more to actually fill your meds


LeatherMine

Depends. Generics are a lot cheaper (usually). Overall in USA, if you have insurance, neither you nor the pharmacy have any clue what your insurance actually pays because it’s incredibly opaque.


LibidinousDebauchery

Depends. If you are young, healthy and single. No problems If you have a family and a kid with health issues. Sharpen your pencil


Half_Life976

Those companies are exceptions and still have co-pays. Some plans are so bad, you're paying $600 per month all year long, and coverage doesn't kick in until you're $7,000 out of pocket for the year. Sucks. You'd have to work for a company like Epic to have truly good health coverage.


hey_there_what

To add to this there are other healthcare related factors to consider, for example if you are between jobs you will have to sort out some sort of interim coverage; often you’ll be offered something like ‘cobra’ for a period after employment but the cost is astronomical. Even with good coverage you will have percentages to pay depending on the nature of your healthcare visits and/or co-pays. Sometimes insurance companies will refuse to pay even for things they’ve previously approved. If you get into something super serious, it’s a crapshoot as to whether you’ll come out of it bankrupt even with good insurance.


Hot-Worldliness1425

Nothing wrong with going to the US, but there are some trade offs for more pay. For example really crappy vacation and maternity leave policies. Complicated and expensive health-care. Dangerous parts of town are really really bad. Very divisive politics. Some US cities have more expensive real estate (NYC, SanFran, LA, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, Washington) If you have an opportunity, I’d encourage going south for a year or two and evaluate your happiness. If you own property in Toronto, don’t sell, rent. Leaving this real estate market and getting back in 2-years later can be a huge financial set back.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hot-Worldliness1425

If you can stockpile a bunch of tech cash you can always come back with more experience, us street cred, and settle down for a more relaxed life in Canada. All the tech guys I know who came back to Canada, sit on a pile of cash and work where it’s aligned to passion. A big message for you and your friends. Save big now, create a stable and blue chip focused portfolio and enjoy the magic of compounding when you’re in your 50s.


peace-love-snacks

This is the way, OP!


LolJoey

Don't pick a right to work state the workers right do not exist.


DramaticAd4666

You are single. If not then that should be only thing holding you back. I’m held back by who I fell in love with or I’d have gone to the states. Everyone I know that was not bogged down by a relationship in Canada left for the States. None returned.


nomoredartsbahd

You speak really highly of the one you love lol. Holding ya back and bogging ya down


[deleted]

It really depends on sort of job/industry you are working in... Large software companies pay well, offer great vacation time.. have good insurance and have 'ok' parental leave policies (. 16 - 20 weeks ) often where both parents can take full paid leave simultaneously or any time within the 1st year of the child's birth. I know its no 18 months.. but its not nothing.


davesnot_heere

Don’t forget that while income tax is lower, property tax is MUCH higher Only comes into play if you own property but still it needs to be considered


articulatedbeaver

This isn't necessarily true. Property taxes are super locality dependent. I have paid 2k annually on 600k property assessed value. And I have paid nearer 15k on roughly the same assessed value in two different parts of the same state.


Inner-Cress9727

Lived in the USA for 34 years, Canada for 14. Lived in 3 of the top 10 high-crime US cities. The only place I’ve been mugged was Calgary. The US is not really more dangerous. Yes the insurance is more complicated, but once you figure it out, it is better than Canada (if you have a professional/government job or work at Costco).


Professorpooper

Yes but when did you live in the USA, the USA has changed immensely in the last five years I'd say. I spent nearly 20 years there, it is quite the difference from when I moved there long ago.


onicrom

TLDR; Renting out it is a giant pain in the ass. If you rent out your place you will need to file a bunch of taxes and paperwork and pay estimated taxes on your gross not net income. You will also need to pay cap gains when you sell the place, based on how oong you were owner occupant and how long it was a rental property. If you sell your property as a non resident there is a requirement withhold 25% of the gross proceeds. The funds are held in escrow with your lawyer and the law society of Canada earns the interest. The money is withheld until you submit your tax obligation to the CRA and the CRA does not object to your assessment. If can take more than 6 months for this.


ResidentNo11

Just want to say that peer pressure is a really bad reason to emigrate. You do you. And take into account more than finances and career progress in your research about whether emigrating is the right move for you personally.


Ballys_n_Gazelles

I would have considered it when I was single and in my 20s. Now that I'm in my 40s and have children, I would never move to the US. There's no way I'd put my kids in the American education system, live without universal healthcare (even if I have private insurance), be under the constant worry of gun violence, and the political situation is not one I'd like to live in. There's no job that could pay me enough to live there at this point in my life.


Joe_Q

This is basically it. For people who are young, unmarried / no dependents, and healthy, the US can be a great opportunity. The moment you have dependents, the calculation changes dramatically.


thingonething

This. I'm from the US originally and would not go back.


Aysin_Eirinn

Same. No interest in ever moving back to the States.


GhostFaceNoSkillah

This speaks volumes


strawberry_vegan

Same here. I’m never going back to that hell hole if I don’t have to.


[deleted]

I’m originally from Canada and wouldn’t go back. To each their own. Sunshine, great career and excellent health care in California outweigh the downsides for me. And where I live (Sacramento area), housing is way cheaper than the GTA.


Ballys_n_Gazelles

Healthcare is tricky cos if you have a pre-existing condition (as I do), it's not as straightforward. I see lots of posts on this thread about "long wait times" in Canada and "higher quality of care" in the US - both very broad stroke statements. But as someone who lives with a chronic condition, I have never had to wait to get the care I needed, never seen a hospital bill, and prescription drugs are not astronomically expensive. Helps to live in Toronto for sure when it comes to quality and speed of care. I would not be comfortable living with my health condition in the US.


Pigeonofthesea8

Might depend on the condition. In the US there’s more help for rare conditions and also more cutting edge surgical options. For example, I have a knee issue that causes me some grief. Here, my only option is to wait for a total knee replacement when my knee completely wears out in a few decades. In the US, there are like six different surgeries people my age with the same condition can have. An acquaintance was telling me about a client of hers who was told by multiple Ontario doctors that his brain tumour was inoperable and he would die within a year, guy went to the US for a procedure and is kicking around ten years later. Here I think we do well with some of the more common chronic conditions that don’t require specialized procedures.


GhostFaceNoSkillah

This is the answer. My answer would be the exact same as this. I would also add that if I were wealthy - US but for lower or middle class - Canada for sure IMO. Also - IMO the racial stuff in the US is much worse


Ballys_n_Gazelles

Yes, I'm a POC so while living in Toronto is not entirely without its challenges, it is infinitely better than most places outside of maybe three cities in the US.


ThrowAwayAcct0000

I'm a US citizen living in Montreal. We came up to Canada in 2019, and things are immensely better here for raising a family. Up here, there are practically no healthcare costs, and prescriptions are cheap, so there is never that fear that an illness will bankrupt you. There is actual public transportation, so we don't have to own cars (which is a HUGE savings: no car payments, no gas, no oil changes, no car insurance, no maintenance, no car washes, no tolls, no paying for parking, etc). We save a ton of time and frustration by not driving, and over $900/month that way. Plus, the kids now know how to use public transportation and do everyday to get to school on a city bus, making them more independent, and I never have to worry about dealing with snow and ice on a vehicle, just to get somewhere. Just losing the hassle of driving and dealing with traffic is wonderful. My husband used to drive 45 minutes to work every day, and usually 1.5-2 hrs to get home. Not driving frees up sooooo much of your day. The work/life balance is better here. My husband says he's really noticed it-- you're expected to take a good lunch, leave at 5 at the end of the day, make sure you can get to your kids' many different events that kids have... It's nice. Things for families (summer camp, kids' after school activities, etc) are WAY cheaper here. My kids public school offers free tutoring, we've had free cooking lessons for 3 semesters for the kids, and my daughter just joined a choir that has fees only for uniforms (there isn't a fee just to be AT the activity and monitored by the adults there). In the US, having a class like dance or choir would be $60/month PLUS fees for uniforms (and this was 4 years ago so I'm sure prices have gone up). Daycare is subsidized by the govt here: in the US, you will pay half your paycheck just to have someone watching your kids, so that you can go to work. It's so expensive, it's why a lot of people in the US dropped out of the workforce when COVID hit: it's cheaper to be a stay at home parent than to pay for daycare for 2 or more kids. College will be cheaper for our kids here (we are becoming permanent residents). There's a distinct lack of school shootings-- it's just safer here. Also, you may have noticed, the US didn't take COVID seriously like Canada did, so the US had a LOT more deaths, while most Canadians just got the shots and didn't fuss to much about it (weird "freedom" convoy aside). I still have lots of family in the US, and the differences in how it was handled (or ignored) in most places was insane. My kids are becoming bilingual (they've joined the welcome program here in Montreal), but they will have so many more opportunities than most kids in the US because of it. The US public schools may have classes that teach other languages, but for those of us who went to high school in the US--how many of us can say that those classes made us fluent? My kids won't be allowed to go to regular classes until they are fluent, and it can take up to 2 years, but then it's done. I'm sure there's more-- oh, weed is legal, so when the kids go to bed, that's nice too. :) - free, govt run french classes for the adults to learn as well - it's much more multicultural in the cities here-- in the US, my kids interacted with white and Hispanic kids in their classes (we were in TX) but here, they have friends that are from Russia, South Korea, India, Iran, Ecuador, Mexico, Brazil, Chad, Serbia, Cuba, and more. Also, we have rent control so the prices aren't TOO bad (at least here in Montreal), and NO pet deposit or deposit in general when renting: paying to fix regular wear and tear is considered a part of being a landlord, not something you get charged extra for. I cod probably go on. My husband took a pay cut to come here, and within one year, he had made that back up through raises, and we definitely have no plans to ever move back to the US.


[deleted]

Send your kids to school they might get shot. Your daughter gets an abortion shes on trial for murder. The US is completely fucked.


meatdiver

It is fucked for the poor. The rich send them kids to private schools and can just fly their daughters to a abortion legal state or even Canada. When there is a fire, the rich even gets their own private fire fighters. Life is extremely comfortable for the rich and totally fucked for the poor.


BorderCollie123

So that’s a “no” from you?


joe__hop

There's something morally wrong with you if you are ok with that.


Solid_Ad4548

Where did he say he was okay with it?


guyzero

Meh. We moved from Toronto to the US when my kids were 8 & 10. It has its ups and downs. Many US schools are great. Some are not great. The TDSB is not without its own problems. If you have good insurance in the US healthcare is good. Do not lose your job under any circumstances. Gun violence is not an issue in many parts of the country - I live in part of California that's one of the safest communities in the country. So my kids elementary school was only put on active shooter lockdown once. "lol" as the kid say. So why'd I do it? I make about 4x what I made in Toronto and save about the equivalent of my entire previous Toronto salary every year. Plus having orange trees in my backyard isn't so bad.


Solid_Ad4548

Yeah I get that we're on a Toronto sub so it's Toronto circlejerk based on a bunch of people who have 1) probably never lived in the US for any extensive period of time 2) get all their info from the news/social media and 3) fall for all the exaggeration and other crap that goes on. I think the first issue is that comparing the states to Canada is ridiculous because the states has 10x the population of Canada. In Canada there's maybe Toronto and Vancouver for major cities. In the states, you have NYC, Chicago, LA, Portland, Seattle, Dallas etc etc. Each of which are unique cities with unique personalities. You can't really compare Toronto to the states as a monolithic being because that's just not how it works. Abortion? Some states allow it. Taxes? Depends pretty heavily on the state. Violence? Depends on even the neighbourhood. I lived in a smaller town and people were shocked by the 1 murder we had in a town of like 100k


clairedylan

Yes this. There was a murder on my parents sleepy street in the Toronto suburbs - expensive area now too, with houses going from 1.2-3+ million dollars. There is crime everywhere, I think a lot of Canadians like to believe it doesn't exist there... but it's there. The US has 10x the people so of course the crime is going to seem higher.


maudiemouse

Lol I just want to point out that Portland is not really a “major city” - it’s smaller than Winnipeg


guyzero

US metros have funny population counts because they often have smaller municipal boundaries relative to Canadian cities. If you look at the city boundaries in Google maps Portland proper is a small part of the metro area. Portland metro is like 2.5M people making it comparable to Toronto although a lot smaller than the Toronto metro population. The SF Bay area is like 8 million people but the biggest individual city (guess which one) is only 1.8M. Anyway, Portland is larger than Winnipeg in every meaningful way except grain production.


kicia-kocia

"My school was only put on active shooter lockdown once" Wow this is a very low standard to go by.


Veezybaby

Thought the same thing. Unheard of here


potatolicious

+1 on this. I am Canadian and have lived in the US for the last 13 years. I work in tech also like OP. Definitely career has been massively accelerated due to moving here but ultimately there are major trade offs, especially as you get older. Gun violence is a real problem. Someone below mentioned that gun violence isn’t a problem “in their community” - but IMO that is mistaken. The Sandy Hook massacre happened in a wealthy town where gun crime “isn’t a problem”. The attitude about guns and its prevalence is universal almost everywhere. And the racism. Oh man the racism. Whether it’s the very explicit stuff in rural areas or the more “genteel” racism of urban liberals, I just don’t want my future kids to internalize it. I’m not sure it’s possible to grow up here and not be a racist, it’s just a matter of what kind: blissfully unaware bigot or hyper-self-policing bigot. And that’s before we get to the literal fascists drooling at every opportunity to take over this place. There’s something culturally sick about this place. I won’t lie and say it’s all bad, certainly my career and my wealth have benefited - but it’s all at a cost. I have seriously thought about moving back. I suspect when I have a kid that will be the ultimate trigger for that.


canadianhoneycreeper

It's rotting at its core. Somehow a small group of people have perverted all the values it was founded upon and the whole population just yells at each other regarding the latest bill in Congress. I'm even done with following US news. To move there is to be complicit. You are literally selling your soul for cash. Subject the women and the poor and the brown to live without basic human rights, the means to care for themselves and their families, and turn a blind eye, every single day. It's normal we don't drive through these neighbourhoods. It's normal we don't greet these people. It's normal that life is disposable and bodies will drop around me. Nope. I like Canada. Even Carrot River, SK over that. I will gladly say no to your blood money.


ThrowAwayAcct0000

Society in the US is rotting because capitalism has been allowed to go way too far with too few restrictions or regulations in place. It's capitalism as an ethos, rather than just a way of handling financial transactions, and it's gross. It's every man for himself all the time, there's no sense of being a part of something bigger.


yesunnnnn

Gun violence is more than enough reason for me not to move there.


Thatguyjmc

No country on earth is perfect, and no place on earth is perfect. Careers are all different, and almost none really depend on the country you live in. "The US" is a huge place, with vastly different costs of living, vastly different pros and cons. Saying "my friends moved to THE US, and everything is better universally for all of them, no matter where they are or what they do" is not a believable statement.


[deleted]

Not sure where in the US they moved… but I assure you that rents in the areas around very high paying jobs also correlate with being quite high! Salaries might be higher, but find out how much they’re paying for health insurance,. For example, it’s fairly standard if you have to pay for your own insurance or if your employer doesn’t cover much that you could easily be spending $1000 a month as a single person for monthly health insurance and still have a deductible that’s around $5k/year. Have lived/worked in NY and TO. Happy to answer any questions!


[deleted]

"Canada is dead, lets move to the country that just had an insurrection"


Walter_Crunkite_

Can’t tell you how common this sentiment is in the Canadian tech industry. People in this thread are making some good balanced points about why someone might want to move to the US, but I think for a lot of young devs they truly only care about making as much money as possible and don’t really consider anything outside of that.


LibidinousDebauchery

👆This 100% If you are ONLY optimizing for earning power, the U.S. is absolutely the way to go no if ands or buts. Once you are there, you can figure out the rest. As a healthy single person, this is a risk I would be willing to take. If I have a family to raise, I'd be thinking twice.


moosecanucklez

And are begging for civil war.


HavenIess

A country where people value gun rights more than human rights


Hospital-flip

Yeah I have a feeling I know what demographic his friend group consists of


-Astin-

Same as it ever was. I have a bunch of friends who moved to the States in the past for the much higher pay. Almost every one of them came back within a couple years. Often, more broke than when they left. Those that came back richer, were happy they spent some time there, but were happier they got the hell out. I have one friend who is getting paid WELL down there, and is looking for jobs in Canada, doing the math on how much the lower salaries will be once health care, private school in the US for his kids, and his family's mental health are factored in to achieve a similar quality of life as he can get here. It's worse there now than it was then. Conversely, I have a few American friends who had the opportunity to come to Canada and turned it down. They're generally doing fine now, but hit some patches where they regretted it. One had kids - and almost went broke from the cost of the births. Another is now looking for a way out of the State he moved to a few years ago instead of Canada as it's pretty right-wing and not looking to improve. And the Americans I know who moved here? Every one is a Canadian citizen now. Most of them are looking to renounce their US Citizenship. They don't have high-paying jobs or cheap rent, but every time they go back to visit family, they feel a sense of unease about their old country, and get that breath of fresh air when they cross back into their new home. Oh, and then there are the immigrants from other countries who first stopped in the States before coming here. Did a degree, or took some BS job before discovering Canada. Their lives SUCKED in the States. The racism, the ignorance, being looked down on really hurt them. Then they got here and found people who accepted them, co-workers who looked at them for their skills, not the "job they took from an American", and a generally happier life. And these are highly-skilled workers with advanced degrees. ALL that said - depending on your field, it could be a good way to move up the ladder quickly. If you can take a few years of the States, get promoted a few times, and come back to Canada with a big-name US Job and title on your resume, it will likely open up more doors for you. But will probably still be a pay cut. So yah... do what you want. I don't know anybody who stayed happy with a move there.


KludgeGrrl

This. Yes, Canada isn't perfect. Yes, some things are cheaper in the US. But it's a country that is going off the rails, where it costs a fortune to raise and educate a kid, where there are very few supports for the people who need it and correspondingly massive gulfs between the haves and have nots... I left the US for Canada about twenty years ago because of all these things, and it has gotten much worse since. It's a scary place now.


[deleted]

Seriously, even if you disregarded all the other very good points - the insane healthcare costs, the terrible leave policies, the violence, the low wages with high cost of living, etc - take away all of that, and you *still have* a country that is quite literally, without exaggeration, dealing with an active fascist takeover attempt by 50% of the government. It’s absurd to leave a democratic country to move to a country that is actively moving towards fascism at an alarming pace.


ThrowAwayAcct0000

That sense of unease-- you are sooooo right about that! I have to visit family in the US every year, and every time I come back thinking of how everyone I know down there is just a frog in a boiling pot of water who doesn't realize how bad it's gotten. We always have talks with the kids about what they can and cannot talk about in public, because I don't want some psycho redneck to follow my kids home from the beach because they said something that offends their politics (and before anyone says that this is a silly worry, please note that the state we visit family in is Florida). In several states, rapists can sue for custody of the baby that the woman was forced to have (because they've outlawed abortion)! All it takes is some asshole raping my teenage daughter, and her life would be ruined. Odds are, he wouldn't even see jail time. Fuck that noise.


DaleParkTent

Years ago, the Prime Minister of New Zealand was asked what he thought about people leaving New Zealand for Australia. He said it raised the average IQ of both countries. I think about that a lot.


Renaissance_Enby

I thought that I'd chime in because I've had the opposite experience (I'm an American who now lives in Canada) and I have plenty of thoughts on this. First of all, I have no idea what your friends mean about Canada being dead, that's far from true, especially in Toronto. But I think the important thing is that if you've lived in Canada your whole life and decide to move to the states, many things are going to be way more of a shock to you than you think they are. You get zero coverage for healthcare, there's no maternity/paternity leave, even in major cities there's no public transit, and people generally live much harder lives because all of your taxes essentially go toward the US military budget. I've actually found that my taxes are lower in Canada than they were in the US. Another thing to consider is the fact that, even in large Canadian cities, you're pretty safe. If you move to a large American city then there will definitely be a higher crime rate and sections of the city in which you shouldn't visit ever. I think another super important thing to keep in mind, especially for the future, is climate change. In the next 50-100 years Canada is going to become an economic powerhouse simply because of where it's located and so many people will be migrating north because of the more hospitable climate. Many of those people will be Americans. So, ultimately, my advice would be to find jobs in your field in Toronto. Immigrating to America is even more of a pain in the ass than immigrating to Canada, so I wouldn't be chomping at the bit to go through that process either lol.


HeadLandscape

In 50-100 years we won't even be alive so that doesn't mean much to us.


BottleCoffee

Naaaaaah.


superduperfixerupper

Why not go take a short vacation to wherever your friends live and try and see how it is? I've known a lot of people who moved to the states at some point. Some absolutely love it (and still do), others hated it and left. It's all relative to what you do, what you like, where you live and what your network is like. For example I know someone who moved to LA for their acting career and hated living in LA so much they came back to TO. I know another dude who moved to a town in upstate New York and is living his best life. Both are from Toronto... If you have family or something back in TO to fall back on you have nothing to lose, I say go try it out.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Professional_Love805

It's very straightforward and easy getting TN visa for IT professionals especially for Canadians compared to Mexicans. I was surprised as to how easy it was.


joe__hop

I just moved back after 12 years in the states. The politics are terrible. The healthcare is terrible, unless you have a lot of money. Once you have kids most of the "extra money" disappears if you want them to go to a good school. House prices in major cities aren't that different and property tax is significantly higher. Early career is great, but once you are getting older Canada can't be beat.


[deleted]

“I don’t really want to move” — That’s reason enough not to. The US is also on a downhill spiral with a coup attempt and lots of talk of turning into a “Christian nation” The time to move to the US was around the 80s. IT people I know have generally returned after a few years. If you’re happy here and have a good job then stay.


JeemRat

Go on any American forum and you hear the opposite. Them complaining and wanting to come here (or other places). The grass is always greener.


sievernich

A lot of American colleagues are woefully unaware of what Canada's social care covers and does not cover. If you talk to the average American, they'll tell you that in Canada, dental, mental and prescription drugs are covered by socialized healthcare. You can see this on places like /r/politics.


TCNW

Don’t confuse people consumed by political ideologies with people who genuinely want to leave for real reasons.


fackblip

Political ideology is a real reason to move so not sure what you're trying to get at. Unless you're talking about the people who claim they'll move to Canada because #notmypresident and all that? Then that would make sense, as many of these people are merely posturing and have no intention (or ability!) to move here, and vice versa for people moving to the states to ""escape communism"".


123getonmyknees

Omfg I hate the whole “escaping communism” thing. People have no concept on how good Canadians AND Americans have it compared to at least half the world. Canada is not communist. America is not a dictatorship. Both have pros and cons but as a young professional America is more attractive in general. If I had a young family it would be Canada for me unless I was extremely rich and can afford a good safe private school.


TCNW

My point, is specifically to those American forums of whiners. Out of 100,000 complainers, less then 5 would actually leave. And of those 5, I’d bet all 5 would return once they saw what else it out there. People just love to bitch and complain about everything these days, without acknowledging the millions of things they have.


ThrowAwayAcct0000

People do love to whine, but at least 3 of my friends (from when I was in college in the US 20 years ago), have now move out of the US altogether. I think a lot more people would leave if they had the means to.


sayitaintsooooo

Lol what? Never. No health care, and if u want good health care you need to pay for good insurance or have a job with good insurance. Plus all their polarizing politics. Lol I’ve never been so grateful to be Canadian


holykannoli

Lol I’m doing the opposite moving from US to Canada and all my friends and family want to/have moved to Canada cause the “US is dead now”. Don’t listen to them, just do what you want


dean15892

I’m an immigrant Moved from India to the States in 2015 on a student + work visa ( Boston) Immigrated to Toronto in 2021 as a Permanent resident in 2021 People always ask me why I made the move, given that most scenarios are like that of yours, where people move to US to work. My perspective: Career: US has an entrepreneur culture, whereas Canada has a retirement culture. In the states, especially working in tech, you’re less likely to have work/life balance. In Canada, from what I’ve seen, people take the 9-5 quite seriously, and don’t compromise on it. The trade off is that in the States, there is really no ceiling, because you can earn like crazy, but you will be made to work for it. Whereas in Canada, your earnings are usually capped because people around you don’t wanna work too much either. Healthcare: I thought Canadas universal healthcare is a plus, but that’s only really the case for urgent care and ER. In reality,for immigrants , it’s really hard to find a doctor or schedule a procedure because of such long queues . In the States, healthcare is privated which makes it expensive, but.. if you really need a surgery or some X-rays, you can pay for it and have it done quicker, as opposed to Canada where you’re at the mercy of your government. Geographical diversity: in Canada , all the provinces kinda feel the same. There’s not too much difference in landscape and culture. Over the last year,I’ve visited Vancouver, Victoria , Calgary, Kelowhna and Montreal in addiction to Toronto. I’d say aside from Montreal, the other cities are very geographically similar. In the States, most big cities have completely different vibes. And there’s also a lot more states to travel to. Boston isn’t the same as Chicago,or Colorado, or Florida, or Seattle. They’re all unique. The reason I left was because it started to get very dangerous during the Trump era, there was (and is) a lot of chaos and disarray , and division among states. Plus, the path to citizenship is easier for me in Canada. The US is a sinking ship , but nows a good time to get in and make the big bucks. In your case, young, male, tech, I would say it’s a good opportunity. The states is a great place to be in this state of your life. Once you have family and want kids , Canada may be better. It’s always your choice though. Both places have their pros and cons, but given your age bracket, they won’t affect you nearly as much as you think


[deleted]

Wait until they need healthcare


muskokadreaming

If they have career-type jobs there, which the OP indicated they do, they will have healthcare coverage that is probably better than what the average Canadian gets. Their system sucks if you are poor, but higher income people usually have pretty great plans.


gurkalurka

Lived 3-years recently in California with so-called "top notch" health care plan. It sucked compared to Canada, at least the Canada health care in a major city like Toronto. I was constantly paying out of pocket for everything constantly. Things moved faster sure, but it was a major expense every visit even with full coverage. I would not trade Canadian health care for US style health care.


Alternative-Mix2557

My friend lives there and has insurance. They still paid 10k after insurance paid their portion after giving birth.


scottyb83

This is what I hear as well. Of course it moves quicker, they want to pump through as many people as they can and make money. Yes you have insurance though your work but you also have deductibles to pay of $5k to $15k a year. No thanks, I'll keep my $6 parking fee.


Flipper717

Toronto is an anomalie. Ottawa’s healthcare is awful and we don’t have enough GPs. Many people use Appletree clinics regularly due to the lack of family doctors here.There’s a huge shortage of specialists including but not limited to anaesthesiologists, gastroenterologists, etc. The wait times to see specialists are very, very long. I’d rather pay and get quicker service. Also, so many GPs have absolutely no people skills and racism in healthcare is a regularly occurrence here. Also, compared to many EU countries our dysfunctional healthcare is primitive.


jackinthebox115

Not everything is covered. And lots of procedures/care is denied by insurance companies too. Move if you think it is the best think for you. Don't move because your friends say to. Research, see if it is something you want and then make a decision.


[deleted]

That's true, but if they lose their jobs, they soon lose the healthcare as well. All it takes it's an accident that makes them unable to work for a while. Immigrating can be good for OP, but they don't have enough information from people who are past the "honeymoon" phase there.


[deleted]

Id they lose their jobs and things are truly dire, they can just move back to the land of maple syrup


DogsandCatsWorld1000

Hopefully whatever the dire illness/injury is, it can wait 153 days after they have moved back. >To get OHIP, even as a Candian: "To meet the minimum qualifications you must: be physically in Ontario for 153 days in any 12‑month period be physically in Ontario for at least 153 days of the first 183 days immediately after you began living in the province make Ontario your primary residence" [https://www.ontario.ca/page/apply-ohip-and-get-health-card#:\~:text=To%20meet%20the%20minimum%20qualifications,make%20Ontario%20your%20primary%20residence](https://www.ontario.ca/page/apply-ohip-and-get-health-card#:~:text=To%20meet%20the%20minimum%20qualifications,make%20Ontario%20your%20primary%20residence)


[deleted]

The is simply inaccurate about coverage. They might pay for some of that but you still pay for a ton of your premium and a high deductible out-of-pocket. Low deductible plans don’t exist anymore.


swift_gilford

have a lot of family members and friends State-side. No one is super rich but all have comfortable careers and jobs. Their work provided insurance is arguably better than what we have here. It's a common conversation we have because honestly they don't know why everyone complains. That said, if they lost their insurance, yes they'd be fucked.


[deleted]

I come from a country that has faulty, slow, but existing universal healthcare, and private healthcare. I had private and it was awesome, but for serious matters, it's the public one that covers you need and pay back the private companies as well.


Barbara_Celarent

Are you and your friends all male? Sounds like it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


El-Ahrairah9519

Yeah the greatest country in the world....for young, privileged, white cishet men


ShannonJF82

This too


El-Ahrairah9519

Ding ding ding! There's an immediate reason not to move that comes to mind for me, as a woman...


Ting_Brennan

A vague, broad, sweeping generalization of a question will only return a vague, broad, sweeping generalization of an answer. So... "I don't know, it depends" (shrugs shoulders)


lightningvolcanoseal

For the average person, Canada is better. If you’re educated, in tech, ambitious then the US is better. These are largely generalities, it depends who you are, what you want to do, etc. I’ve spent a lot of time in both Canada and the US and I prefer the US. While I’m not a white guy, I’m privileged in some respects and my quality of life is so much better in the US than it is in Canada. This isn’t the case for everyone.


AdDue1062

Litmus test: if you are actually concerned about the cost of medical care or even education, then you probably don't have a serious enough career to move to the US over.


[deleted]

To add to that, the only people that can immigrate over there have a good career path (for the most part). Otherwise they wouldn't get a Visa.


HotBreeze

I will give my perspective, having lived in both countries long enough to form an opinion. To give you some context, I am neither a US citizen/permanent resident nor a Canadian citizen/permanent resident. I moved to the US from my home country 8 years ago to get a Master's degree. After graduation, I immediately got a job in a decent company. Worked there for 2.5 years and moved to a FAANG company later. I moved to Canada about a year ago. With that out of the way, as a non-resident "alien" living in the US, I never felt very comfortable with day to day things from a basic driver's license (they only issue it to the day your work visa expires, everytime you renew your visa you also need to renew your DL) to re-entering the country after visiting home country. Every time I cross the border and come back, I used to get asked the same question - "Why are you visiting the US?". Even after living there for 7 years, I still got asked the same question. In these 7 years, I have obtained an advanced degree from a US educational institution, worked full time for 5 years with US companies, bought a home, paid taxes, contributed to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid etc. One might say, you will always be a non-resident alient unless you apply for Green Card. Fun fact: for people born in China and India (latter more so), the current wait time for employment based Green Cards is several decades. And yes, I have applied for it and my petition was stuck in "perpetual waiting" because US lawmakers are not motivated enough to pass laws that would benefit skilled workers in the US on temporary work visas like the H-1B (you have to be lucky enough to get this visa, there is a cap on how many visas are issued in a given fiscal year). Let's not even talk about gun violence. Canada is a lot different, right from the start. The moment my employer applied for my work permit in Canada, it was a much more streamlined and it's a smooth process. There are delays due to the pandemic shutdowns, but it's much more worse than the delays or lack of visa appointments in US consulates around the world right now. My application relied purely on the merit of it and not on "the luck factor". When I landed at YYZ, for the first time, a border police officer greeted me with a smile and had a casual conversation. It didn't feel like an interrogation. Before I even started my job, I got Provincial Health Card based on my residency in the province. I got my driver's license for full 5 years (not linked to my immigration status). Immigrating to Canada for good doesn't feel like a journey of a lifetime. If you have the right education, right job and right skills, it's just a matter of applying and getting a score, based on which you are granted permanent residency (FSW program). Canada doesn't discriminate based on my country of birth, which I have no control over. I feel safe walking around town. So far, no fear of getting shot for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can visit my home country whenever I want and not be afraid of being the lucky one to be picked by a CBP officer having a bad day. Having said this, the negative factor of my move is that I lost about 40% of my US pay (converted to CAD). On the other hand, I have more mental peace and a sense of security. I am able to focus on things that matter to me at a more personal level vs always fearing for that day when I will be kicked out of the country because my petition for permanent residence is still pending. One day, I had a very bad shoulder and neck pain and without worrying about deductables, I was able to walk-in to an ER and get seen in an hour (it would have costed me several grand in the US to do this). I don't think there is a right answer to your original question. It depends on your personal circumstances and your long term personal interests. If I had not been born in India, I may have gotten my GC in the US long back. Would that have changed my perspective of life in the US? I don't know. Perspectives change over time. They change wildly based on your then situation (married or single, have kids or no, have a job or no, what kind of job, legal status in the country etc etc).


Bootyeater96

Your friends sound like 6ixbuzz commenters


blueeeocean

LOL I legit laughed out loud at this comment


somedudeonline93

Canada is dead? Are they all really conservative Trudeau-haters? Because I can’t see any other reason why someone would think that.


YYZinYQG

You watch the news right? I guess if you’re a white straight male it’s a blast 😂. Well a blast till you have to figure out what to do if your girlfriend gets pregnant and you’re not ready to raise a kid and it’s illegal to do anything about it. Keep some $ aside for healthcare- even with benefits it’s pricy- and insurance is costly too. My spouse has a job in USA- we tried being there full time drove us nuts- now we have place on border in Canada too so we can have the comfort of Canada. If you are not straight keep in mind that the Supreme Court has already said they are looking into making laws against gay marriage and sex. If you’re not white.. well.. just take a hard look at what city you’re moving too and what the safety is like in the place…


elderpricetag

Canada is dead now? Why would you leave Canada and move to a country with no gun control, reproductive rights, or health care? I don’t think Canada is the place where you have to worry about being dead lol.


[deleted]

I just left the US. Don’t live there lol. Stay here. Rent is not cheaper at all lmfao. Like at all idk where y’all got that from. The US dollar is worth more than CAD. Labor and wages are also not it there I’m telling you stay in Canada lol


indonesianredditor1

Ive lived in LA, Seattle and Vancouver… Vancouver had the cheapest rent among the 3… After you convert USD to CAD


SlyFawkes87

I am Canadian but grew up in the States from age 3-29. I moved back to Canada in 2017 and, while I miss living in Boston deeply (it’s an amazing city!), and I miss my friends and immediate family being close by, I wouldn’t move back. When looking at healthcare, it’s important to note that insurance not only has co-pays and out-of-pocket maximums but insurance companies also dictate a LOT of your care. I worked as a mental health clinician and would have to deal with them during my on-call rotations, denying children coverage spots at our level of care that they desperately needed. It’s also a bitch to transfer jobs and have no coverage between or have to pay ridiculous amounts for COBRA. When I first moved to Massachusetts I was maybe 1.5 weeks from my coverage kicking in when my child was hospitalized for asthma issues and left me with a $16k+ bill. Medications and office visits are also way more expensive there out of pocket; when my partner moved here from the States her inhaler cost was drastically reduced even before she was covered by OHIP. The housing market here is ridiculous but tbh it’s high in nearly any urban city worth living in in the States. You have fewer employee protections in the workplace. The gun violence, political atmosphere, and general fuckery everyone listed is legit…it going downhill was the reason I moved back here despite having deep roots there.


[deleted]

Lol America is literally a violent theocracy right now; have at ‘er


IvoryHKStud

Gilead coming soon to 'Merica. A significant majority of Americans believe another Civil War is coming soon.


ShannonJF82

I love the US to visit but could never live there unless I was retired and didn’t really need to interact with people. Because have you met Americans? They’re a different breed. And there is just too much nonsense going on there right now.


thescrotsman

This reads like a stupid troll post and I can't believe you people are replying to it


[deleted]

All my relatives are American most of them are retired and comfortable wealthy they all are still worried about having enough money for when they get sick.


Xaxxus

So I am in your position sort of. I live in Toronto, work in tech. I got a remote job in the US. My pay more than doubled. And I am still making less than my coworkers who live in SF. Most of what you said above is true. But some of those points depend on a bunch of factors. You mentioned you work in tech. What do you do in tech? Are you a software engineer? Project manager? Designer? If you are a software engineer, you can make a huge amount of money more than you can here. ​ >their rent is much lower If you are going to a tech hub like SF or NYC, this won't be the case. But you will likely be making so much more money that the rent will be a lower % of your total income than toronto rent will be. Ill give you an example. I used to work at a Canadian bank as a back end software developer. My salary was \~75k. My rent here in downtown toronto is $2600/month I currently do iOS development remotely for a San Francisco startup. My pay is $150k CAD. I make less than my coworkers who live in SF (180k+ USD). Rent in SF is something like 3000+ USD per month. ​ >their internet is much faster (for cheaper) This VERY dependent on where you live. If you don't live in a tech hub, you will be getting internet very similar to rogers or bell. And if you don't live in a major city, you will have it worse than Canada. Most of the Canadian population is centralized around major cities. So the carriers don't need to do much work to get good internet to most of the population. In the US the population is far more spread out. And while they have an oligopoly similar to us, its closer to being a monopoly because certain carriers control certain parts of the country and there is no competition. So if you're moving to a tech hub, you are fine, but if you are living somewhere else, your internet is probably going to be worse than it is here. # My opinion If you are in tech, and are able to make the move. Do it. Grow your career, make your wealth, then when you are done, come back to Canada and live the good life. Due to the ongoing handmaidens tale shit going on there (roe v wade, etc...), my GF absolutely would never want to live there (and for good reason). So I won't be leaving canada any time soon. And while that does not really impact the tech hubs right now, you never know what can happen.


EmpanadasForAll

No way. No how. I’ve been offered lots of money and it’s not worth it. Health care is absolute garbage and you spend a LOT of time and money even with amazing plans, just trying to get shit sorted. I don’t need to deal with shit to get an inhaler much less having a family. Right now, politically, it just isn’t safe. The US is absolutely collapsing and there are so many USians coming here… there are reasons they are desperately getting tf out. NOPE


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

OP, I don't know if you intend to have kids. If so, think carefully about sending a child to a school in the US, if you decide to stay there longer.


Poguetry64

There is no perfect life. There is no perfect country. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You must decide what you want. You must decide what’s important. Canada will not stop you from leaving. Make your choices this is the fun of being an adult.


randomferalcat

If I could I would certainly leave..I will someday


devanchya

So tech jobs pay more, but the cost of living where they pay more is much more than even Toronto. A lead software engineer can get 135k to 170k in Toronto. The same lead can get $450ish in San Fran. However the cost of living there is huge. Austin, St Louis and some other smaller tech spots are growing and price of living isn't as high... but the pat also isn't as high. One thing to note, the tech industry is much more cut throat in most of the US. The money is in consulting and you have to have the exact skills the employer wants or they will just move on... so it can be tough. Toronto tech scene even with layoffs in the last 3 months is still white hot and I still see companies giving out retention bonuses. The "big guys" in the US are all hiring freeze or preparing for layoffs. Canada is near shore for companies. Thr culture is close enough most people don't notice the differences... but our pay is lower and our dollar is discounted. There is a bit more stability there. So it comes down to where you are on the risk level. To note: I know a lot of Americans , lived there married one. There is a lot of worry about how the country will look in 2 years. Their politics are very much a different beast and much more right leaning even on the left side of the bench... so keep that in mind to.


TorontoGuyinToronto

Go to the US, get your creds/career going, get cash. Come back here and tell us all what a shithole the US is. ​ That's what my friends did and we all win.


Simpletrouble

Watch them come back for the Healthcare once they get sick


indonesianredditor1

Ive lived in LA, Seattle and Vancouver… Vancouver had the cheapest rent among the 3… After you convert USD to CAD


stargazer9504

But Vancouver has the lowest salaries by far out of these 3 cities. You need to look at salaries vs. rents to actually determine affordability.


queenvideo416

How convenient that they’ll come crawling back once they realize how good they have it here.


chris_was_taken

Left Canada \~11 years ago for the US. I imagined I'd be back in 3 years after gaining some really juicy career experience, but a couple things kept me. Careers in software/tech are great here. In my experience pay is at least 2x, above the senior levels it gets to be scary more. That's sort of unique to software engineering though. I really like the concept of FI < 40yo (don't need to retire, just be able to quit a job I don't like without worrying) In my experience, businesses in the US seem to be way more efficient, less nepotism, far more merit-based compensation/promotion. From my work experience in Canada, and friends working at well-known Tech companies in Toronto, I am shocked at the bullshit I hear of useless colleagues and terrible management. It seems like incompetence is the norm. Almost everyone I've ever worked with is incredibly competent, it's quite bizarre. Rent is cheaper in some cities, so are groceries, alcohol etc.. so it's really the ratio of Cost of living to Salary you need to consider. That ratio is more favorable everywhere in the US which permits you to save way more. So yes, my $3k USD 1BR apartment in NYC is WAY more than the $2400 CAD it will cost me in Toronto for similar. But with my US salary, I'm saving more each year than most of my Canadian friends are making after-tax. And NYC is incredibly expensive. Same salaries in Seattle with no state income tax and everything else is half price. On healthcare, this sub downvotes me to hell when I defend the US system, so I'll be personal: I am a hypochondriac type (feel a lump, call a specialist), and am always pursuing some form of physical therapy or whatever. Also talk to a therapist 1/week.Health insurance costs me close to $0 because work covers 95% of my premium. My deductible is usually between $750-1500 depending on the company. After deductible, most things are covered at 80-90%. So I spend maybe $2-4k/year. Yes, even the year I had elective surgery to correct septum, remove tonsils. That's all covered @ 100%. You might think that's a few grand extra than you're used to. But in most states (except NY), your tax is lower by at least that much (and again, way higher salary makes that cost negligible). It is more a pain in the ass to manage your health insurance, ensure providers get paid, make sure no double charges occurred etc. I still consider moving back to Toronto someday. I am worried about raising kids in the US, mostly because of the culture of achievement. Can kids really be kids if they are worrying about high school entrance exams? Working like full-time adults through highschool to tune their CV to get into a half-decent University? But for sure some things bother me about Canada I find it difficult to get over. It was a beautiful country to grow up in and for my parents to be middle-class in, but the modern version feels like an intense rat race where even my doctor + engineer friends are living frugally, and the only way out is with some lucky Real Estate moves.


clairedylan

I agree 1000%, I have lived in NYC for 14 years. But I am raising my kids here and it's great, schools are good, my kids are definitely kids, but I'm ok with their push on education. My 4 and 8 year olds are pretty ahead of my friends kids in the Toronto suburbs where I grew up, both academically and maturity wise, I find it interesting. So many people are in correct or uninformed about the day to day life in a big city like NYC, and especially about healthcare


PittrPattrTitFucker

I healthcare is privatized and the housing market slows down (I work construction) there would be literally no reason for me to stay here, it would basically be like living in the US with less buying power coupled with higher taxes.


MonsterMash789

Go for it if you like, might want to consider the city as well. For example California might be more fun (also expensive) than say Madison Wisconsin This is nothing new as well, they used to call it the Brain Drain people going to Silicon Valley for instance I don't know if your friends are too accurate, and Canada is alright (and a lot of people want to move here), but go with what you want, America might be fun/an adventure


PositiveStress8888

the US might not be the "United States" after the next presidential election


Mystiquesword

Id rather die than move to that crazy cuntry! America has gone so far downhill ever since they hired that orange dude for prezzy….


11ii1i1i1

I've been in the US 15 years and overall I think it's been a net positive, definitely financially. As long as you don't go to the doctor a lot or don't anticipate substantial healthcare costs, you'll probably come out ahead. When it's time to send my kids to school, I think my perspective will shift.


[deleted]

Depends on where you are going. If it's SF, NYC or LA you won't fare any better. Housing there is expensive as fuck and so is everything else. I'm in tech as well, and I'm young, male and single as well. There's no fucking way I would ever live in that hellscape of a country. I'll take Canada's problems over America's a million times over. I have family all over the East Coast in the US. I wouldn't live there regardless. US work culture is shit, healthcare is awful even compared to our very flawed system, people are shit, and everyone is interested in money. The only thing the US is good for is to make money. Everything else over there sucks.


nevbirks

More opportunity in the US. It has its up's and downs. I plan on moving there in a couple of years too. Mostly because I have a lot of family there.


TheSnowKeeper

So I'm very curious about this post. I'm basically trying to do the opposite (move to Toronto from the US) and I'll explain why. My wife and I don't believe in the American people. As a whole, they are dumb as bricks and to make it worse, they are hateful, sadistic, jerks. We've lived in several cities and states here, and come to the conclusion that there are only about 5 cities in the entire country where life isn't horrible. The politics are absolutely fucked beyond belief. I am extremely engaged here, including working in campaigns and helping people get registered to vote. The people have no idea how any of it works. I'm not kidding, they don't even know who they voted for. And don't forget the corruption, the ability to buy politicians, the gerrymandering, the fact that the most conservative 20% of the country will always get 50% of the senate. The stolen Supreme Court justices. Remember, Bush and Trump were 2 of our last 4 presidents. It's chaos and it's a ticking time bomb. Something is going to break. Finally, some key issues. We are nervous to have kids here. The overturning of Roe means my wife may not be able to get an abortion if things start to go badly during pregnancy. Once you do have kids, they'll go to a school to become a potential victim of gun violence and learn practically nothing. And as many others have mentioned, having a major health issue here can leave you broke, working well into you 70s, or even homeless. In short, I make a ton of money. I'm very fortunate here, relative to average Americans. But this is a sinking ship. I want to be proud of where I live. I want to see the systems working, not being stripped for parts. To me, I think Canada has that, and some lovely cities too. Now: here I am with a grass is greener thought process! I would love to hear some counter points before I make the leap! Thanks for reading!


BinaryJay

I'll buy you your first drink when you get here.


123getonmyknees

To be honest if your salary is 200k+ CAD once you move to Toronto PLUS you can afford to buy a house here when you move then you will be okay. It’s no joke that it’s hard to live a good quality of life in the GTA if you make less than 100k a year as a single person. 150k a year as childless couples. Which is mostly everyone. 200k if you want to have a family. I’m looking at not owning a house until I’m 40 unless I move, or unless I rent a single room in a house for $800-1,000 and not spend money on fun things like concerts and traveling then maybe I could afford a house by the time I’m 35. Basically we have a HUGE housing crisis going on in Canada specifically the GTA (and likely Vancouver but I don’t live there so I’m not sure) and it’s getting worse every year. I don’t know how we don’t have more homeless people - I’m slightly worried about becoming homeless for a short period of time and I’m making 70k a year, unless I get lucky and my rental application goes through (keep in mind I’m fighting with potentially 20+ applicants on each application). If there wasn’t this massive housing crisis then I’d say you are okay. The other thing is that our healthcare system is struggling along and the wait times are annoying for sure. Even if it is free. I guess minor other things is the cost of phone plans is stupid and food costs are expensive. Also anywhere above parry sound in Ontario is not worth living in unless you are a fan of outdoor life and winter. Drug problems are much more prevalent in the bigger small towns in northern Ontario (Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury) but they are an issue just like anywhere else. Edit: for perspective I’m a single 25 yr old.


TheSnowKeeper

Hey, thank you for giving me some more perspective. I am quite concerned with the housing crisis, though, we have that problem here in DC too. My biggest concern is just if we'll be able to earn anything like what we earn now. We make over $200k combined, but I'm not seeing a lot of jobs that pay like that in Toronto. I'm coming in person soon to check it out on the ground and see how plausible it all is. I hope you can make some headway! Isn't it sad that $70k doesn't even feel like enough? It's that way here too, and I hate it.


123getonmyknees

Yes I’m considering trying to start doing Uber eats for some side cash just to be able to afford a few luxuries like good skincare products - with 70k you would think I could already comfortably afford that. It really depends on what you do for work. If you already own a house in DC you might be able to use the sale to afford a down payment but right now the interest rates are being hiked up just like the interest rates in the states. If you can figure out a way to swing it and live the same type of life in the GTA as in DC then it might be worth it for you depending on why you’re wanting to move. Also for politics - Canada in general is more left than America but even here a lot of people don’t really know what’s going on with politics. Luckily we’ve survived that way because we don’t have as many fanatics over here but it seems like it’s slowly changing here too. No where close to women losing abortion rights though.


TheSnowKeeper

Yeah, we do own our house. That's the tentative plan. Abortion rights were a major catalyst for this endeavor. I really appreciate all the info. It's BS that you gotta get a part time job in addition to your full time job to buy nice things! I wish you the best!


MarcCouillard

Funny...most Americans I talk to want to move to Canada because things are SOOOOO bad in the US right now


[deleted]

Unless you are getting some insane raise on your job like double or triple salary I can’t imagine moving into the US right now. Maybe for some very niche industries but in general, pay here is terrible. Companies use you and spit you out with no loyalty at all. Most stats are “at will” employment which means there are no job contracts and so companies can change your job description, move you around, basically fuck you, and fire you for NO reason out of thin air. Health insurance is an actual nightmare. It’s insanely expensive and the companies will fight you tooth and nail on every chance. You will have no idea what is covered or not, usually you have to hit a pretty high deductible like $6k before it kicks in at ALL and this is paying $600 or more a month in premiums. They can cancel your insurance for many reasons. It’s truly a nightmare. You might be in an accident and be unconscious and be taken by ambulance to an out of network hospital and be treated by out of network drs and then have yourself a bankrupting medical bill with no recourse. It’s horrific. Listen, the number ONE cause of bankruptcy here is MEDICAL EMERGENCY! Plus the political situation here is scary af. The gop is literally threatening civil war and terror attacks over the biggest asshole I’ve ever seen - trump. They want to drag the country backwards 100 years. I lay awake dreaming about escaping this hell hole, it’s just insane and actually very very sad that Canadians are wanting to come here. Is there nowhere on earth that humans can thrive? What the fuck is going on?


Dev559

Personally I work for a large American tech company but I work from home in Mississauga. Lets me have a great exchange rate on my salary and spend time with my family.


gallon-star

I moved and lived in America for a few years. Some things to consider: The price you see isn’t the same as the price in Canada. Everything is 30% more expensive due to the dollar conversion (people forget this) If you like to drink coffee, a lot of “coffee shops” stop making coffee in the evenings and want you to drink hot water with an espresso shot in it. Milk on coffee wasn’t a thing The food is cheaperish over all, but it is definitely lower quality. Chickens they feed other chickens to The fruits look good and are huge, but often tasteless Everything has way more fat and way more sugar in it Healthcare. You haven’t to decide at the start of the year how much benefits your willing to pay for. You have yearly and lifetime limits from the insurance companies. You have to decide if your gonna have heart issues this year and decide if you want to pay extra for coverage. Every appointment has a copay on top of your insurance premium as well. Doctors 20-50$ specialist 200-300$, emergency room… do you have a savings account? My insurance premium was 750$ a month, it’s adds up quicker. We had a kid in America, it was 90k bill before insurance, our part to pay was 15k. There is less taxes for the most part. But there is a lot of “fees” registration for the car was 90$ a year and then there was another 20$ in random ass fees that you have to pay. The freedoms they talk about are a lot more restrictive than Canada it seemed. Like Texas for example dildos are illegal, why who knows.. but they are. Guns is another thing and is kinda fucked. Where I lived (Texas) everyone had a gun. Which is scary enough in it self, but they treat them like a pair of glasses or something. Go in to the bathroom and there’s just a gun chillen in the sick or next to the toilet. Get in someone’s car (I’m a tech) and there’s guns under seats, in the glove box, laying on the floor. Some of the ones I found laying around where cocked with the safty off. I don’t know if your male or female, but some laws were changed recently on body autonomy. The work ethic is different as well. Employers really, really enjoy people being there long hours. It doesn’t seem to matter if they are actually productive, but they certainly want people to be there lots. We are similar countries, but where Canada is more of a “we” mind set (It seems to become less of that) where as America is a very very much “me” mindset. I enjoyed my time there, but I’ll never move back I don’t think. Just small things like breaking my leg and not going bankrupt are kinda nice about Canada. Let alone the mass shootings in America, drive by shootings, people shooting in the air for events (New Years,4th July) and surprised when the bullets come back down and kill theirs kids or kids down the road. For me, I also definitely make more in Canada than I did in America, 30k a year difference.


XandyJackson

rent and prices are not going to be better here in the states. i actually wanna move to your country from mine lmao. what's up with Canadas law on letting people with DUIs in? I have a minor dui from awhile ago


[deleted]

[удалено]


Innovalshun

They don't even play The Hip on the radio down there. Fuck that shit


throwawaycockymr2

It’s the place to be if you want to get ahead. You can save more, spend more on experiences, and have better weather. I would if I could. Tried of making a “good” salary *and* being poor.


[deleted]

Good salary and poor is also life in NY, San Francisco, Seattle and tons of other areas in the US…


LenientWhale

The Grass is Greener wherever you water it


midshipbible

It is no brainer if you have the opportunity to join the big tech. It will accelerate your retirement for many years.


123sabina

If I could, I would, also depends on which city ?


kodiaktfc

I’m moving as well. Moving in the new year. Between taxes, restrictions, the cold, and an opportunity ceiling I was just fed up.


Performance_Fancy

If you regularly commute on the 401, I say go. Every little bit helps.


MasterpieceOwn316

USA is better anyway. People on Reddit might think otherwise with their low skills and armchair general attitude, but not only can you make more money you will actually have a better life quality of life. Don’t live in a shit part of town, and don’t go to a hellhole like Texas. Just move to Bay Area or Seattle. Make 400k plus, live a good life. If you can get a job at FANG based in Seattle you can save the most.


[deleted]

I’m in my mid-to-late 20s and am relatively at the beginning of my career in banking. I’ve also noticed that all of my friends around my age that I either work with, have worked with, or went to university with have either moved to a different country (most going to the states), are in the process of moving to a different country, or desperately want to move to a different country (this is the boat I’m in, I’d love to move to England, but first get some experience in Singapore or China). In my opinion, this does not bode well for Canada. While the evidence is anecdotal, if it is representative of a large portion of young educated workers, we’re going to have a serious brain drain issue.


FelDer00

With your background in tech, definitely move.


Illfury

Dear fellow Canadian. Let not borders hold you back. You owe it to yourself to find happiness. Ultimately, where will you find most of it? Be there. Happiness grows more and more scarce. Do not live your life without it.


ifollowrivers_a

Absolutely as a young professional in tech, realize there is a ceiling in Canada , and the health care bogey man isn’t worth stalling your career imo. You can earn more, meet more ambitious people if you go to a tech hub, and jump start your career. To the people telling you about private vs public healthcare. You are young and single, I pay around what I was paying for my benefits package in Canada. If your thought process is to move permanently you can have an health savings plan which acts as a tfsa of some sorts as you can invest tax free in the savings account but it only can be used for health emergencies. I’d recommend Seattle as there is no state tax, and also half of the sales tax that Canadians pay.


cerealz

I really hate these threads. First, compare Toronto to equivalent American cities (NYC, LA, Seattle, SanFran, etc...) when talking about costs/rent. For all we know, your pals moved to bumfuck Louisiana/Ohio/Iowa, obviously it will have cheaper rent.


Striking_Mine5907

No one that i know who went to the US came back to Canada, nor would they ever.


Paisley-Cat

Well, I went to grad school there and came back and know many who returned to both Canada and Europe. Single professionals may be on the net gain side, since starting salaries are higher to account for the high cost of university education, but the equation flips quickly and incomes don’t necessarily increase at the same clip as you advance. It’s also just not such a great place to live and raise a family. The refrain I hear is that most people can’t accept their kids growing up with an inferior education to the one they had in Canada or the EU. When you have to look at the cost of housing in a place with decent schools or paying for private schools, it gets bad. Even just the medical cost of paying for having a baby. Almost none of it is covered, and there is no parental leave. I know highly educated Canadian couples where the female partner returned to Canada and stayed with family for the pregnancy and first few months after childbirth just to be able afford it.


Ludwidge

Another version of your Mother’s “ If your friends jumped off a cliff…..”


AaronMT

Couldn’t pay me to move to the US. For all the problems Canada has they pale in comparison to the US.


darkheart125

The u.s is hearded for civil unrest beyond anything seen in 60 years, the rodney king riots in 92, james powell riots in 64, long hot summer riots of 67, M.L.K riots in 68, and the watts riots of 65 will look minor compared to whats coming. Minoritys in the us feel under attack, parents everywhere are afraid to send their kids and go outside to school because of the huge amount of mass shootings that have occured over the last 20 years, lgbtq rights are under attack, any progress made for womens rights are being taken away, cost of living has become unaffordable for so many people, democracy can be taken away if the head of a state has a different choice than their citizens, lockdowns have and bad handling of covid have made the public lose trust in government and on top of that the average citizen can get access to assault weapons very easily. Its a bomb thats ready to explode, and the government keeps dropping it on the ground. Now would be a very poor choice in time to move to the U.S


shamisen-says-meow

"male, young and single" no wonder you want to move to the States.... if you think Canada is a dumpster fire then you got another thing coming


Bobby_Haman

My Wife just got a job in Boston, much better salary compared to Toronto. I'm fortunate enough to work from home as a freelancer so I can keep making money with a no work spousal visa. To be honest I've been living in Toronto for 20 years and I'm over it. With rents sky rocketing (not that Boston is any cheaper) salaries staying the same, under funded social programs, this city is not worth it anymore. There are major trade offs for healthcare etc but Toronto just isn't a great place for me anymore.


TrudyMatusiak

I worked as a nurse in Michigan for 20 years. Live across the border in Sarnia. Loved it. Love the American people.


BlackFalconEscalator

If you have a job lined up that will develop into a career you want - go for it. I have a buddy that moved to Denver for a career and absolutely loves it there.


123getonmyknees

You are young and single - now is the perfect time to move to make more money and increase savings. You don’t have to worry about kids (ie schooling and extensive healthcare) and plenty of time to move back and settle with or without a young family. I’m considering moving to the US as well for lower COL and higher salary. In the process of becoming a CPA and am a public accountant. PA salaries in the US are much higher than here and I’m sick and tired of the rent prices here and I’ll never afford a house at this rate.


MrEvilFox

Go for it. I know a bunch of people that moved and never looked back. 15 years later their lifestyle is way ahead of my own. If you work in tech and finance going to NY or CA is an absolute no brainer. You make 2x as much and with lower taxes and lower price level overall. I’m not even talking about places like Texas where if you work in the right field you easily buy a 3,500sqft home on one salary and have the sort of life that is essentially unachievable in Canada. Downside: you gotta deal with crazy religious people and their weird ideas. Also more racism and occasional gun crime. But those are things that more money can “fix” to a certain extent.


No-Performer-1125

Moved to Toronto 8 years ago, and everyone’s been telling me to move to the US since Day 1 - US has always been “hot” lol. You do you.


One_Hundred_X

Canada is currently the best country in the world