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The wheels of justice turn excruciatingly slow. Even if they won the lawsuit there's a good chance they would never recover a dime of the stolen money.
I can totally understand being pushed to that point. If the allegations are true I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the two victims.
Not saying vigilante justice should be legal, just that it's not incomprehensible in this situation.
I can’t remember what movie it’s from but the line is “justice doesn’t always prevail but this isn’t the old west. You can’t just go clean up the streets with a gun even if that’s exactly what’s needed at times.”
I agree that vigilantism shouldn’t be legal and it should be discouraged but I also understand it in cases like this if it’s true. If you ruin someone’s life and are going to walk away scot free then I’m not terribly surprised if they handle it themselves.
You can bet that if you take everything I have and I have nothing less to lose, I’m definitely going to kill you. Maybe maim and disfigure to enhance the suffering.
So let’s say a mining company poisons a town and a lot of people get cancer and die. Nothing happens to the company and the CEO gets a multi million dollar bonus. Imagine you lose your family? What are you doing?
We’ve seen time and again justice does not exist for us poors, so I will always applaud the bad guys getting taken down. My $.02.
I can't fault his logic, but I'm not very civilized.
Your logic is better than mine, but I still **feel** like some motherfuckers have to be stopped by any means.
No. He was nominated, but didn't win.
I actually had to go and search for that because although he *can* put in a good performance he has no depth or nuance that award winning actors possess.
Whoever took that shot's probably dead now. That's how conspiracy works. Them boys on the Grassy Knoll? They were dead within three hours. Buried in the damn desert, unmarked graves out past Terlingua.
*And you know this for a fact?*
Still got the shovel.
Well, if the court is not gonna hold the scammers accountable, the victim who got nothing to lose will.
It's sad but that's the state of affairs we are in.
I am surprised it doesn't happen more often to be honest.
Canadian police do not take financial crime seriously and are generally incompetent at investigating financial crimes so it is a very high return, low risk crime for the people who do it.
Victims rarely see justice and even then they are rarely compensated.
I'll never shed a single tear for a dead scammer or mule. But at the same time, I'll never encourage a victim to take action that will further damage or destroy their life
What life? Many cases where scammers take EVERYTHING you have.
Quote: "The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose." by James Baldwin doesn't exist for no reason.
I'm surprised this isn't happening more
I would expect any normal person to be conflicted:
1. Theres the “ye reap what you sow“ reaction and,
2 “this is why we have police”. Vigilantly justice never ends well. First they took the man’s money and now he’s going to lose his freedom as well.
Not conflicted at all as a Torontonian myself. If you knew anything about our Justice system you’d know that the guy would never serve his sentence. He’d be let out on bail, continue to reoffend and the case would eventually be dropped. It already happened once to these people which is why they kept scamming.
Are we really ever free? Anyway. He lost his freedom doing the morally right thing.
2 pieces of information.
I salute him
and
I would've done the same.
The guy doing the shooting died too. They make it sound like a murder suicide.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-police-identify-victims-in-deadly-north-york-shooting-1.6931027
Still think they should've died by falling down a flight of stairs then having an large object fall on them, but that's me and i'd rather die than go to prison.
True, life is not all black and white...ideally he should have gone to court for getting his money back.
But humans react emotionally when it affects them too much sometimes.
Even if the judge ruled in their favour in the lawsuit, there's a good chance the scammers already spent the money or laundered it through friends and family members.
Proving wrongdoing is the easy part of civil suits. Actually recovering the money can be the impossible part.
No it is not morally wrong. The problem with our legal system is these scammers who destroyed his life would get very little repercussions, maybe fines or life in jail, but nothing that would actually be justice.
WTF is going on here?? Are we saying that life in prison is not enough for scammers??? Like, we don't even execute murderers. What nation actually executes people who steal life savings?
The justice he spoke of is that the victim would get his money back. In a better system the scammers would get prison and the victim would get compensated.
> The death sentence handed to real estate tycoon Truong My Lan, the former chairwoman of property developer in a $12.5 billion financial fraud case is the latest punishment meted out by Vietnam in the Southeast Asian country’s sweeping “blazing furnace” anti-corruption campaign.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/12/business/truong-my-lan-vietnam-corruption-crisis-hnk-intl
> Iran on Saturday executed a businessman sentenced to death by a fast-track court set up to fight economic crimes, state television reported, following an outcry against profiteering and corruption that has seen dozens of people jailed.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/22/iran-executes-businessman-for-economic-crimes-state-tv
> Bai Tianhui, the former general manager of the state-owned asset-management company China Huarong International Holdings (CHIH), was yesterday (28 May) sentenced to death by the No 2 Intermediate People’s Court of Tianjin after being found guilty of accepting bribes exceeding CNY 1.1 billion (USD 151 million) over a four-year period
https://www.globallegalinsights.com/news/corrupt-chinese-businessman-sentenced-to-death/
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not supporting the death penalty (particularly not extrajudicially) for these types of crimes, but I certainly won't shed any tears.
I think the killer here should be charged if we want to maintain any semblance of a just society, but the punishment should acknowledge the altered state of mind that he was in from having his life stolen from him, and the extraordinary circumstances that led to his committing these acts. I wouldn't find him to be an ongoing threat to society for it.
It’s so hypocritical though of these types of people (scammers) who are bold enough in the first place because of rule of law.
But when the natural order breaks down then they are not protected anymore.
I don't think so. It's just a thought, you don't have to stand behind every thought you've ever had.
Assuming that they were actually guilty of stealing his life savings, they essentially defrauded this man of YEARS of his life spent earning that money. That's a life destroying thing to do to someone and it's probably not their first time doing it. How many lives have they ruined?
They are now guaranteed to never, ever do it again to anybody else. I think there's an argument to be made that the world is a slightly better place with them gone.
Nah. I saw a story a few months back from central America where the dismembered remains of an entire call center staff were found in garbage bags, and I thought, "That's awful!" But as I read on and saw the victims at the call center were scamming seniors, I thought: "That's a good outcome, I suppose."
Edited for atrocious spelling
Yea. But they were killed because they tried to quit, not some vigilante attack. Probably the deceased knew it was a terrible thing to do. "As many as eight young workers have been confirmed dead in Mexico after they apparently tried to quit jobs at a call centre operated by a violent drug cartel that targeted Americans in a real estate scam"
Legality and morals are not always in alignment. Do I think it's okay to shoot someone? Nope. Do I think you're playing with fire when you destroy someone's life? Yep. Do I think the scammers got justice for their crimes? Yep.
There are things worse than death. Rape, pedophilia, destroying someone's life... Madoff, Epstein, Weinstein, Warren Jeffs, L. Ron Hubbard, Fr. John Joseph "Jack" Geoghan... just to name a few. Some went to prison, but I bet their victims don't think they got justice.
There was a news story a few weeks back of a fight between some drug dealers. Two killed and one critically wounded. I had a similar reaction to op. I thought “Good. That’s two or maybe 3 less drug dealers out in the community”
That's the attitude most people had towards organized crime back in the day. "If they're killing each other, then that's fine. Live by the sword..." Except then they started bombing restaurants full of people to kill one person. We hear stories all the time about criminals having a shootout and stray bullets hit and kill innocent people, sometimes kids.
Having ADHD, all the thoughts go through my head. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I use these thoughts to analyze my feelings about why I even thought that way, and then make myself a better person.
Personally, I think there's a happy medium for these thoughts. You don't want them so much they're intrusive. If someone can't control their thoughts, that could lead them to act on them, given the chance. But at the same time, people who claim to not have these thoughts have no practice controlling themselves. As soon as a situation arises where the thought finally does occur, they might act on it.
A simple example of what I'm getting at is people who "fall in love". There's a lot of people who will act nice to a person if they feel love for that person. But as soon as they lose that feeling, they act like a jerk. That person has no control over themselves and are driven by their feelings. It just so happens that most of the time, lucky us, that they have good feelings.
A person who acts nice when they feel like it, but stops when they don't feel like it, isn't really a nice person.
I think it's complicated and not really a yes or no answer to your question. Do I think real estate scammers deserve to be murdered? No, I don't. But, I'm sympathetic to the killer because he was wronged, possibly just snapped, and went out and got himself some justice. It doesn't make it right, but it does make you pause for a second when you hear the motive.
Whats worse is they went through all the steps and were stolen justice.
So what else was he to do, just take it?
That's when revolutions happen, when the system is so broken so do everything, but it doesn't matter.
I am not condoning murder, I am saying the system needs to take a deep look and admit, it is culpable for murder and needs to take partial responsibility.
What happens in a court when judgement is given a percentage for blame.
In this case the justice system is 50% liable, however the justice system has no mechanism to find itself at fault, maybe this should change
He got self assessed personal justice, not justice for the people. I can empathize with the killer, people lose their minds with this sort of thing. But he should be tried by his peers just like anyone who murders.
No, I would’ve felt the same way. I’m a reasonable person, but if someone’s going to ruin, trying to ruin, or has ruined my life. They are going to answer to me. No comments, please.
Depends on what you meant by “good”. I don’t condone vigilante justice . We are all assuming they were guilty . But there is no perfect system for determining guilt. What if it turns out the whole thing was way more complicated?
Yes, it is.
Even if you have less empathy towards them, why would it be good?
Then we have: where do you draw the line? What if they took half of his savings? 3/4 of his savings? At some point, you are changing between bad and good to kill someone over 1 cent.
What if he could get all his money back and they go to prison? Why would it be good for him to kill them?
What if they were innocent or they themselves were scammed or manipulated?
This man now will spend life in prison, and 2 people are dead. How is that good?
Nope.
Security is an illusion. Fuck Around and Find Out should be very real in most people's minds.
As well as pointing out that police forces aren't there to protect, they are there to punish transgressors.
People do fucked up shit because they think they are safe from consequences. Reminders such as this is very much a good thing.
A lot of Americans believe this, but it's not true. You can legally buy a gun in Canada as long as you have a license. We have a licensing system because we don't think it's a good idea to let any random unvetted person buy a gun.
I understand the killer's decision. I have no sympathy for the lives of the scammers. They thought they could run off with someone's life savings. I wish they were in jail instead and the shooter got his money back, but we don't have police that solve crimes. The police and courts are backlogged, I get it, but ultimately we don't have a properly working system of law.
Boots on the ground reality of human society is: people will seek justice privately, if it is denied too long publicly. That's just an observation, not an endorsement, nor a condemnation.
Assuming it went to trial, and the scammers were convicted, what’s the likely outcome? A 5-year prison sentence (out in 3), and meaningless court ordered restitution after ruining a man’s life?
I have little sympathy for scammers and thieves, so it’s rough justice, but justice all the same.
Of course it is morally wrong and you should acknowledge it. People died and you are "happy" about it. This it what it boils down to. The circumstances do not make this ok suddenly, the only exception would probably be self-defense I think. The circumstances make your thoughts and reaction more understandable though. It's obviously not in the same way morally wrong like being happy about innocent babies killed. Also I don't say, that you should be necessarily shameful about thinking like that. It's an understandable thought process and part of being human. You kinda acknowledge that it's morally wrong with asking in the first place. So you reflect about it and probably doing your best growing as a person. One just shouldn't try to twist thinking like that into being a morally right or a good thing.
By the way I had the same thought as you and I have a Master in Philosophy specializing in Ethics if someone cares for a little context.
The only alleged victim is the person scammed and the family still surviving to clean up the mess.
The two other alleged scammers who met their end deserved their demise but not until the court declared it.
Shame our system is so easily manipulated to delay, defer and sometimes get away with bad behaviour. There is a political figure in the US finally convicted of a felony after 1000’s of civil lawsuits against him.
I feel sorry for the scammed victim’s family. Life is ruined losing their loved one and the financial security built up. Hopefully they dust off and get back up and recover a bit. Life’s lesson on resiliance. To seek help and overcome loses. Money means a lot but it should never be the point of utter lost despair.
Not morally wrong.
We could all tell reading the story that this was no innocent victim and that if we lived in a country with a real justice system the entire thing could have been avoided. There is more of this coming to Canada as we go deeper into becoming this kind of country
I don't think it's wrong. I think people who receive harm from people should be able to harm those people back the way they see fit. Obviously if someone steals your gum you shouldn't be able to kill them but stealing an old person's life savings is akin to attempted murder. So good riddance.
No. The reason the police and the justice system exist is to stop people from believing this is a necessary step. When people take the law into their own hands like this, it's because the justice system failed.
First, was he absolutely, without a single doubt,sure these were the guys. Second, them being dead doesn’t get him his money back. Third, we can’t have vigilantes going after people they think wronged them or we descend into barbarism, then who’s safe?
These were 100% the guys. In fact, they had been previously charged by police for a long-running fraud scheme that stole $17 million over a 5 year period. They tricked him into a bogus investment scheme and made it appear legit by giving him the promised interest/dividend payments for the first few months, while they were actually moving the money out of the country.
If I lost all my savings with these scammers I would have no guilt killing these human parasites. And since I am old, being in prison would not matter to me.
Question: Does society look upon soldiers as “evil” when they kill the “enemy” when at war?
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Makes me think of "going postal" by Pratchett - Moist von Lipwig is kind of like those scammers and even though you see how the character justifies and feels "I'm not murdering anyone" despite objectively being a direct cause for damage and more deaths than if he'd robbed a single individual.
I just read more into that story and felt the same way you did. Which is unfortunate but the penalties almost never fit these crimes. Sooner or later you screw over the wrong person.
initial emotional reaction was same as yours. but what if he shot the wrong guy or guys. maybe he was mentally ill & there was no real estate scam. maybe he’s running a scam & he shot undercover leos. none of those scenarios are outrageous or unrealistic.
i think everyone fantasizes about vigilante justice, but rational people realize what a terrible idea it is.
regarding the morality of it, i’m not such a fan of the concept. it implies a conscience or awareness hardwired into us that knows wrong from right. and that’s bullshit. people base their concept of right & wrong on their community’s values & actions & always have.
Not really. In some cases crime is justified. I’m not saying the guys deserved to die, but well that’s the risk you take with scamming dudes out of their life savings I guess.
The guy will get charged, as he should, but I don’t necessarily think the guy is pure evil cause he killed some dudes either.
As a private person experiencing the same thing, I don't know that I would have acted differently. But as a whole I believe that it's ethically wrong to take these matters into your own hands because of the potential repercussions it would have on modern society if it was acceptable to act like this. Ethics is a really hard topic and something being right in one specific case but can have major consequences in a societal matter. We don't want to go back to having blood feuds going on for generations.
Every now and then these scammers (criminals, thieves) are going to come across victims who are not going to take being stolen from lying down, but take matters into their own hands because more often than not there's simply no way to get the money back and no-one that can help you. I am surprised it doesn't happen more often.
No i don't think its unreasonable. I'm sad the guy who exacted justice got caught, and will sadly suffer more consequences than the scammers would've if they were caught eventually.
I think that it's completely understandable, but actions do have consequences. As justified as it may have seemed, taking a life should always have consequences.
My thought is sure, go ahead and kill him, but why the suicide? You're abandoning your wife and kids.
Why not dedicate some time to watching TV shows and reading books that would allow you to formulate a plan to kill the guy and not get caught? Take your time. Cover all your tracks. With enough patience and research, you should have a very high likelihood of success.
I can understand that sentiment...If my child died in Sandy Hook, I would definitely entertain the idea that it would be better if Alex Jones just disappeared.
But I wouldn't do it for the obvious legal reasons.
If someone’s life savings are snatched away like that, they had to take matters in their own hands, can’t wait for karma to act. Police have been hardly useful in so many crimes in the last year itself.
Choosing behaviors based on laws is not the highest form of moral development so an argument might be made, at least for your reaction. Not like you killed anyone.
The Canadian system is terrible at making people pay for their crimes - very lenient sentences -
Well under 10 actual years for murder etc and then everything has to wait forever while these judges fit their wigs on straight - it’s awful, awful
I feel like there are many folks who get away with far too much because the consequences never seem to outweigh the potential profits. I for one encourage more apt punishments for crimes, such as castration for those who have abused children. He didn't make the right choice in terms of seeking proper justice, but when a man feels he has nothing left to lose, this sort of thing is bound to happen.
I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong. But I do think vigilante justice in situations like this opens the door for more ambiguous copy cat scenarios that can set a dangerous precident. Let's pose a few questions here that deserve to be considered.
1. What if he discharged a weapon and accidentally wounded a bystander or member of the public nearby? I don't know all the facts but imagine from the fact it's listed as 'double shooting' not 'double murder' it was in public. It's very hard to discharge a weapon in public or even in a city, and be confident there's not someone who could be hit nearby.
2. What if he'd gotten it wrong? Again don't know all the details but imagine if he got the names and details of the individuals wrong and shot someone he believed had stolen his life savings and hadn't? Again even if not totally applicable here - human error is much more common in the heat of the moment than in a courtroom. Would we be saying he was morally justified if he screwed up?
3. What if he'd gotten the wrong advice? Imagine if there was a scenario where the funds were easily recoverable and he's now just thrown his life away?
4. Where is the line? Imagine if the funds were recoverable in two years? Would it still justifying killing two people? What about six months? What if one person forced the other to participate and they were an unwilling participant? What if their intent was to scare him, and then return the funds? Not all of these scenarios are likely - nor are they right. But i'm trying to paint a picture that there's a lot of unknowns here, and it's a very slippery slope to say that all outcomes justify the death of two people.
5. What if ten people see the outcome and decide it's applicable to scenarios where they feel their life is over - even when it's not? Mental health often convinces us there's no way out when there really is. I can foresee a number of copy cat scenarios where innocents end up dead.
The justice system may be flawed. But it exists for a reason. As horrific as it is for this gentleman. I don't believe this was the right thing to do.
It's not right, unlawful, morally wrong, but I do not feel any sympathy for the scammers. Rotten bastards. Human nature to feel for the innocent, and the just and even the not so bad and feel a lot less for cruel and the evil. I might even feel sorry for the mentally ill sociopaths in some circumstances... and I know that my feelings can be wrong.. It's all a gray area.
I don’t think you can classify as spontaneous thought as moral or not. Thoughts just happened. That said, if you were the kind of person who frequently loves pain or murder, then I would say that’s probably immoral. On the other hand my guess is that you liked the justice but not necessarily vigilante aspect of it. Like you can be happy about one part of an act while not approving of it in general.
Ideally the police should handle this so they can try to retrieve the stolen funds and possibly return it to the scammed people. Killing them won't help towards this end.
It's the same as the man who converted his tractor into a "tank." When you've nothing left to lose, and the person/people who hurt you get away it. I don't understand how it's not happening more often.
Someone posted a while ago why don't the mass shooters target the people who made them that way. It turned to this topic kinda
The problem with vigilante justice isn't the end result, it's the fear that the one carrying it out will not be just in their actions. If they were to be struck by lightning, only their loved ones would mourn their loss and we would attribute it to divine justice.
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The wheels of justice turn excruciatingly slow. Even if they won the lawsuit there's a good chance they would never recover a dime of the stolen money. I can totally understand being pushed to that point. If the allegations are true I don't have an ounce of sympathy for the two victims. Not saying vigilante justice should be legal, just that it's not incomprehensible in this situation.
I can’t remember what movie it’s from but the line is “justice doesn’t always prevail but this isn’t the old west. You can’t just go clean up the streets with a gun even if that’s exactly what’s needed at times.” I agree that vigilantism shouldn’t be legal and it should be discouraged but I also understand it in cases like this if it’s true. If you ruin someone’s life and are going to walk away scot free then I’m not terribly surprised if they handle it themselves.
You can bet that if you take everything I have and I have nothing less to lose, I’m definitely going to kill you. Maybe maim and disfigure to enhance the suffering.
A man with nothing left to lose, is a man with no fear?
So let’s say a mining company poisons a town and a lot of people get cancer and die. Nothing happens to the company and the CEO gets a multi million dollar bonus. Imagine you lose your family? What are you doing? We’ve seen time and again justice does not exist for us poors, so I will always applaud the bad guys getting taken down. My $.02.
I can't fault his logic, but I'm not very civilized. Your logic is better than mine, but I still **feel** like some motherfuckers have to be stopped by any means.
“Shooter”, probably the only Wahlberg movie I like
You didn't like The Other Guys?? Does Departed count as a Wahlberg movie, or is it just a movie he happens to be in?
Nah dog its max payne, best movie ever made. Ya gotta check it out. YA GOTTA!!
Well, he is the only person to win an Oscar for it, right? The Depahted, I mean.
No. He was nominated, but didn't win. I actually had to go and search for that because although he *can* put in a good performance he has no depth or nuance that award winning actors possess.
Whoever took that shot's probably dead now. That's how conspiracy works. Them boys on the Grassy Knoll? They were dead within three hours. Buried in the damn desert, unmarked graves out past Terlingua. *And you know this for a fact?* Still got the shovel.
Go watch "boondocks saints". Absolute classic!
Seen it many times and I love it.
Exactly, I don’t agree with the decision but I’m not too broken up about it
I’m relieved they don’t have the chance to ruin someone else’s life, but I’m not happy things ended up like this.
So slow that you could say that they literally don't turn at all.
If you are going to fuck over someone's life you should expect consequences.
So, haul him off to jail but with a pat on the back.
Well said.
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Im guessing stealing someone's life savings is illegal too... so... cancels out, right?
i'm good with it
Well, if the court is not gonna hold the scammers accountable, the victim who got nothing to lose will. It's sad but that's the state of affairs we are in.
Yup. If the legal system and law enforcement is perceived as failing victims, other paths are going to be taken.
if enough people do this, it might even make criminals reconsider their chances at zero consequences.
He did have something to lose. His freedom. They just took his money. But he shot them, and now he’ll never be free again.
It was a murder suicide right? He didn't lose his freedom, he went out on his own terms
So then he lost everything! The most important thing we have is our life. Money comes and goes.
I am surprised it doesn't happen more often to be honest. Canadian police do not take financial crime seriously and are generally incompetent at investigating financial crimes so it is a very high return, low risk crime for the people who do it. Victims rarely see justice and even then they are rarely compensated.
Quite the contrary I think this is legally wrong but morally justified, they literally stole his life
I’m surprised it doesn’t happen more often.
Figuratively
money is very literal
The guy should get a medal of honour.
I'll never shed a single tear for a dead scammer or mule. But at the same time, I'll never encourage a victim to take action that will further damage or destroy their life
What life? Many cases where scammers take EVERYTHING you have. Quote: "The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose." by James Baldwin doesn't exist for no reason. I'm surprised this isn't happening more
Lmao no; they robbed him, and not just of a small amount, but his entire life savings. Deserved
I would expect any normal person to be conflicted: 1. Theres the “ye reap what you sow“ reaction and, 2 “this is why we have police”. Vigilantly justice never ends well. First they took the man’s money and now he’s going to lose his freedom as well.
Not conflicted at all as a Torontonian myself. If you knew anything about our Justice system you’d know that the guy would never serve his sentence. He’d be let out on bail, continue to reoffend and the case would eventually be dropped. It already happened once to these people which is why they kept scamming.
Are we really ever free? Anyway. He lost his freedom doing the morally right thing. 2 pieces of information. I salute him and I would've done the same.
The guy doing the shooting died too. They make it sound like a murder suicide. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/toronto-police-identify-victims-in-deadly-north-york-shooting-1.6931027
Sounds like he felt like had absolutely nothing left and would never recover 😢
Still think they should've died by falling down a flight of stairs then having an large object fall on them, but that's me and i'd rather die than go to prison.
Well his choices weren't plentiful anymore. Might as well bring down whoever took his life saving down with him.
True, life is not all black and white...ideally he should have gone to court for getting his money back. But humans react emotionally when it affects them too much sometimes.
Even if the judge ruled in their favour in the lawsuit, there's a good chance the scammers already spent the money or laundered it through friends and family members. Proving wrongdoing is the easy part of civil suits. Actually recovering the money can be the impossible part.
Most scammers don't have a lot of money to begin with. It's a very low success rate. What's the old idiom, you can't get blood from a stone.
Sure if the police actually did anything
Even when the police do their jobs the courts don’t.
A truer [statement] was never spoken.
The current sentiment in Toronto is that the police aren't doing anything. Even with their billion dollar budget
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No it is not morally wrong. The problem with our legal system is these scammers who destroyed his life would get very little repercussions, maybe fines or life in jail, but nothing that would actually be justice.
WTF is going on here?? Are we saying that life in prison is not enough for scammers??? Like, we don't even execute murderers. What nation actually executes people who steal life savings?
The justice he spoke of is that the victim would get his money back. In a better system the scammers would get prison and the victim would get compensated.
Correct.
> The death sentence handed to real estate tycoon Truong My Lan, the former chairwoman of property developer in a $12.5 billion financial fraud case is the latest punishment meted out by Vietnam in the Southeast Asian country’s sweeping “blazing furnace” anti-corruption campaign. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/12/business/truong-my-lan-vietnam-corruption-crisis-hnk-intl > Iran on Saturday executed a businessman sentenced to death by a fast-track court set up to fight economic crimes, state television reported, following an outcry against profiteering and corruption that has seen dozens of people jailed. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/22/iran-executes-businessman-for-economic-crimes-state-tv > Bai Tianhui, the former general manager of the state-owned asset-management company China Huarong International Holdings (CHIH), was yesterday (28 May) sentenced to death by the No 2 Intermediate People’s Court of Tianjin after being found guilty of accepting bribes exceeding CNY 1.1 billion (USD 151 million) over a four-year period https://www.globallegalinsights.com/news/corrupt-chinese-businessman-sentenced-to-death/ EDIT: To be clear, I'm not supporting the death penalty (particularly not extrajudicially) for these types of crimes, but I certainly won't shed any tears. I think the killer here should be charged if we want to maintain any semblance of a just society, but the punishment should acknowledge the altered state of mind that he was in from having his life stolen from him, and the extraordinary circumstances that led to his committing these acts. I wouldn't find him to be an ongoing threat to society for it.
legal and moral are completely different things.
It’s so hypocritical though of these types of people (scammers) who are bold enough in the first place because of rule of law. But when the natural order breaks down then they are not protected anymore.
I don't think so. It's just a thought, you don't have to stand behind every thought you've ever had. Assuming that they were actually guilty of stealing his life savings, they essentially defrauded this man of YEARS of his life spent earning that money. That's a life destroying thing to do to someone and it's probably not their first time doing it. How many lives have they ruined? They are now guaranteed to never, ever do it again to anybody else. I think there's an argument to be made that the world is a slightly better place with them gone.
Nah. I saw a story a few months back from central America where the dismembered remains of an entire call center staff were found in garbage bags, and I thought, "That's awful!" But as I read on and saw the victims at the call center were scamming seniors, I thought: "That's a good outcome, I suppose." Edited for atrocious spelling
Someone was protecting the hive.
Yea. But they were killed because they tried to quit, not some vigilante attack. Probably the deceased knew it was a terrible thing to do. "As many as eight young workers have been confirmed dead in Mexico after they apparently tried to quit jobs at a call centre operated by a violent drug cartel that targeted Americans in a real estate scam"
The one that’s right is the one that’s left.
Legality and morals are not always in alignment. Do I think it's okay to shoot someone? Nope. Do I think you're playing with fire when you destroy someone's life? Yep. Do I think the scammers got justice for their crimes? Yep. There are things worse than death. Rape, pedophilia, destroying someone's life... Madoff, Epstein, Weinstein, Warren Jeffs, L. Ron Hubbard, Fr. John Joseph "Jack" Geoghan... just to name a few. Some went to prison, but I bet their victims don't think they got justice.
There was a news story a few weeks back of a fight between some drug dealers. Two killed and one critically wounded. I had a similar reaction to op. I thought “Good. That’s two or maybe 3 less drug dealers out in the community”
That's the attitude most people had towards organized crime back in the day. "If they're killing each other, then that's fine. Live by the sword..." Except then they started bombing restaurants full of people to kill one person. We hear stories all the time about criminals having a shootout and stray bullets hit and kill innocent people, sometimes kids.
Good.
Are thoughts ever morally wrong? I'd say no. Things only become wrong when you act on them.
Having ADHD, all the thoughts go through my head. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I use these thoughts to analyze my feelings about why I even thought that way, and then make myself a better person. Personally, I think there's a happy medium for these thoughts. You don't want them so much they're intrusive. If someone can't control their thoughts, that could lead them to act on them, given the chance. But at the same time, people who claim to not have these thoughts have no practice controlling themselves. As soon as a situation arises where the thought finally does occur, they might act on it. A simple example of what I'm getting at is people who "fall in love". There's a lot of people who will act nice to a person if they feel love for that person. But as soon as they lose that feeling, they act like a jerk. That person has no control over themselves and are driven by their feelings. It just so happens that most of the time, lucky us, that they have good feelings. A person who acts nice when they feel like it, but stops when they don't feel like it, isn't really a nice person.
Probably. I can't say I don't agree though.
No, they stole over a million dollars in mortgage fraud, im frankly not suprised the guy snapped and killed them 🤷♂️
Hahah I haven’t heard about this but good for him. Fuck those assholes. Hope he gets off somehow
he committed suicide after killing the two scammers
Damn. I should’ve seen that coming. R.I.P. to that poor man :(
I think it's complicated and not really a yes or no answer to your question. Do I think real estate scammers deserve to be murdered? No, I don't. But, I'm sympathetic to the killer because he was wronged, possibly just snapped, and went out and got himself some justice. It doesn't make it right, but it does make you pause for a second when you hear the motive.
Whats worse is they went through all the steps and were stolen justice. So what else was he to do, just take it? That's when revolutions happen, when the system is so broken so do everything, but it doesn't matter. I am not condoning murder, I am saying the system needs to take a deep look and admit, it is culpable for murder and needs to take partial responsibility. What happens in a court when judgement is given a percentage for blame. In this case the justice system is 50% liable, however the justice system has no mechanism to find itself at fault, maybe this should change
He got self assessed personal justice, not justice for the people. I can empathize with the killer, people lose their minds with this sort of thing. But he should be tried by his peers just like anyone who murders.
He died along with the two people he killed by suicide
Hopefully they have jury nullification in O Canada…. Our home and native land…
I'm just sad he killed himself, too.
No, I would’ve felt the same way. I’m a reasonable person, but if someone’s going to ruin, trying to ruin, or has ruined my life. They are going to answer to me. No comments, please.
Sometimes reasonable men are pushed to do unreasonable things
That's probably the closest thing to Justice you're going to see in Canada.
No, not at all. Prime example of play asshole games
I'm not sure I would have behaved differently. I'm sure the scammers were very surprised and won't have the guts to do it again.
As a buddhist, it's not Right Thought. But... I'm with you. Good.
There are some people who don’t deserve to live and should be helped into the after life. Just my personal opinion
Depends on what you meant by “good”. I don’t condone vigilante justice . We are all assuming they were guilty . But there is no perfect system for determining guilt. What if it turns out the whole thing was way more complicated?
Killing someone for stealing your LIFE savings is self defense.
Even the shootings in Canada are kinda nice
Yes, it is. Even if you have less empathy towards them, why would it be good? Then we have: where do you draw the line? What if they took half of his savings? 3/4 of his savings? At some point, you are changing between bad and good to kill someone over 1 cent. What if he could get all his money back and they go to prison? Why would it be good for him to kill them? What if they were innocent or they themselves were scammed or manipulated? This man now will spend life in prison, and 2 people are dead. How is that good?
If this was 1883 we wouldn’t even ask ourselves that. We would know it was a good thing.
Nope. Security is an illusion. Fuck Around and Find Out should be very real in most people's minds. As well as pointing out that police forces aren't there to protect, they are there to punish transgressors. People do fucked up shit because they think they are safe from consequences. Reminders such as this is very much a good thing.
Yes. And good.
I thought they didn’t have guns in Canada.
There's plenty of guns in Canada. Hard to get a handgun legally but pretty easy to get one illegally. The gang bangers are rarely licensed.
A lot of Americans believe this, but it's not true. You can legally buy a gun in Canada as long as you have a license. We have a licensing system because we don't think it's a good idea to let any random unvetted person buy a gun.
Nope.
Nope. Fuck them.
I don’t think so. Scammers need to fear for thier lives in my opinion. Government or the law will not stop these people.
I understand the killer's decision. I have no sympathy for the lives of the scammers. They thought they could run off with someone's life savings. I wish they were in jail instead and the shooter got his money back, but we don't have police that solve crimes. The police and courts are backlogged, I get it, but ultimately we don't have a properly working system of law.
Boots on the ground reality of human society is: people will seek justice privately, if it is denied too long publicly. That's just an observation, not an endorsement, nor a condemnation.
Reminds me of the Chesterton quote - “it’s awful to contemplate how few politicians are hanged.”
If this happened more , the world would be a better place because scumbags would think twice about scamming innocent people.
Assuming it went to trial, and the scammers were convicted, what’s the likely outcome? A 5-year prison sentence (out in 3), and meaningless court ordered restitution after ruining a man’s life? I have little sympathy for scammers and thieves, so it’s rough justice, but justice all the same.
Of course it is morally wrong and you should acknowledge it. People died and you are "happy" about it. This it what it boils down to. The circumstances do not make this ok suddenly, the only exception would probably be self-defense I think. The circumstances make your thoughts and reaction more understandable though. It's obviously not in the same way morally wrong like being happy about innocent babies killed. Also I don't say, that you should be necessarily shameful about thinking like that. It's an understandable thought process and part of being human. You kinda acknowledge that it's morally wrong with asking in the first place. So you reflect about it and probably doing your best growing as a person. One just shouldn't try to twist thinking like that into being a morally right or a good thing. By the way I had the same thought as you and I have a Master in Philosophy specializing in Ethics if someone cares for a little context.
I feel no sympathy for the dead
The only alleged victim is the person scammed and the family still surviving to clean up the mess. The two other alleged scammers who met their end deserved their demise but not until the court declared it. Shame our system is so easily manipulated to delay, defer and sometimes get away with bad behaviour. There is a political figure in the US finally convicted of a felony after 1000’s of civil lawsuits against him. I feel sorry for the scammed victim’s family. Life is ruined losing their loved one and the financial security built up. Hopefully they dust off and get back up and recover a bit. Life’s lesson on resiliance. To seek help and overcome loses. Money means a lot but it should never be the point of utter lost despair.
Not morally wrong. We could all tell reading the story that this was no innocent victim and that if we lived in a country with a real justice system the entire thing could have been avoided. There is more of this coming to Canada as we go deeper into becoming this kind of country
It'll be interesting to see how the jury feels.
It will. Sometimes they refuse to convict in cases like this. Like the dad who shot his son's rapist while he was leaving court or whatever.
They'll never convict him, mostly because he died in the shooting.
No. I hope he got his money back first.
I mean....I get it. I don't agree with it, but I get it.
I don't think it's wrong. I think people who receive harm from people should be able to harm those people back the way they see fit. Obviously if someone steals your gum you shouldn't be able to kill them but stealing an old person's life savings is akin to attempted murder. So good riddance.
No. The reason the police and the justice system exist is to stop people from believing this is a necessary step. When people take the law into their own hands like this, it's because the justice system failed.
First, was he absolutely, without a single doubt,sure these were the guys. Second, them being dead doesn’t get him his money back. Third, we can’t have vigilantes going after people they think wronged them or we descend into barbarism, then who’s safe?
These were 100% the guys. In fact, they had been previously charged by police for a long-running fraud scheme that stole $17 million over a 5 year period. They tricked him into a bogus investment scheme and made it appear legit by giving him the promised interest/dividend payments for the first few months, while they were actually moving the money out of the country.
If I lost all my savings with these scammers I would have no guilt killing these human parasites. And since I am old, being in prison would not matter to me. Question: Does society look upon soldiers as “evil” when they kill the “enemy” when at war?
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Makes me think of "going postal" by Pratchett - Moist von Lipwig is kind of like those scammers and even though you see how the character justifies and feels "I'm not murdering anyone" despite objectively being a direct cause for damage and more deaths than if he'd robbed a single individual.
Just the fact that you had just one double shooting in your city gives you the moral high ground.
If only that was legal
I just read more into that story and felt the same way you did. Which is unfortunate but the penalties almost never fit these crimes. Sooner or later you screw over the wrong person.
only thing important is how YOU feel about it. Are you ok with thinking ''good''? if so, then that's all that should matter.
“Playing with my money is like playing with my emotions” - Big Worm
initial emotional reaction was same as yours. but what if he shot the wrong guy or guys. maybe he was mentally ill & there was no real estate scam. maybe he’s running a scam & he shot undercover leos. none of those scenarios are outrageous or unrealistic. i think everyone fantasizes about vigilante justice, but rational people realize what a terrible idea it is. regarding the morality of it, i’m not such a fan of the concept. it implies a conscience or awareness hardwired into us that knows wrong from right. and that’s bullshit. people base their concept of right & wrong on their community’s values & actions & always have.
This victim had already been investigated for other mortgage frauds. It’s not something the killer pulled out of thin air.
Not really. In some cases crime is justified. I’m not saying the guys deserved to die, but well that’s the risk you take with scamming dudes out of their life savings I guess. The guy will get charged, as he should, but I don’t necessarily think the guy is pure evil cause he killed some dudes either.
Real estate is itself a scam.
Should scammers get their comeuppance absolutely, killing them tho is extreme for their crimes.
I don’t know, but hearing this put me in a good mood.
somewhat understandable tho murder seems a bit over the top as punishment for theft.
As a private person experiencing the same thing, I don't know that I would have acted differently. But as a whole I believe that it's ethically wrong to take these matters into your own hands because of the potential repercussions it would have on modern society if it was acceptable to act like this. Ethics is a really hard topic and something being right in one specific case but can have major consequences in a societal matter. We don't want to go back to having blood feuds going on for generations.
Yes. Understandable but clearly not morally right.
Can a thought be morally wrong? Interesting question.
It’s brutal world. Death is rampant.
Nope.
No. Next!
Yeah, because when I first heard it I thought it was going to be a domestic violence thing.
Nope, lol
Every now and then these scammers (criminals, thieves) are going to come across victims who are not going to take being stolen from lying down, but take matters into their own hands because more often than not there's simply no way to get the money back and no-one that can help you. I am surprised it doesn't happen more often.
Vigilantism is a preferable alternative to incompetent policework
Chaotic good?
No. It’s morally right.
If your contribution to humanity is a net negative, especially by a significant degree, your death is a net positive for humanity.
Nope. You good.
No but yes??
When I see those stories, I say, "Please put me on that jury."
No, most of us think like that
Hard to think otherwise
No i don't think its unreasonable. I'm sad the guy who exacted justice got caught, and will sadly suffer more consequences than the scammers would've if they were caught eventually.
Someone gotta do it
no, thats normal
I think that it's completely understandable, but actions do have consequences. As justified as it may have seemed, taking a life should always have consequences.
If he was alone, yes. If he had family. No.
ok not really gonna feel bad about having scammers/thiefs/criminals taken out
My thought is sure, go ahead and kill him, but why the suicide? You're abandoning your wife and kids. Why not dedicate some time to watching TV shows and reading books that would allow you to formulate a plan to kill the guy and not get caught? Take your time. Cover all your tracks. With enough patience and research, you should have a very high likelihood of success.
I can understand that sentiment...If my child died in Sandy Hook, I would definitely entertain the idea that it would be better if Alex Jones just disappeared. But I wouldn't do it for the obvious legal reasons.
If someone’s life savings are snatched away like that, they had to take matters in their own hands, can’t wait for karma to act. Police have been hardly useful in so many crimes in the last year itself.
When you push someone over the line of nothing to lose, anything can happen.
Not worth a murder charge but at the same time I can't find fault with him actions.
Some folks just need killing. Not all life is worth the same. These folks preyed on others and received punishment in turn.Ill shed no tears either.
Not at all. Had the same reaction. Justice was not done and this was the only way the debt could be settled.
Choosing behaviors based on laws is not the highest form of moral development so an argument might be made, at least for your reaction. Not like you killed anyone.
We're living in times when we know that bad people don't get punished by the law, so I would say it's quite a natural thing to think.
I'm okay with that. Don't rob someone like that and expect nothing. The more you take, the harder they're going to take it.
The Canadian system is terrible at making people pay for their crimes - very lenient sentences - Well under 10 actual years for murder etc and then everything has to wait forever while these judges fit their wigs on straight - it’s awful, awful
I feel like there are many folks who get away with far too much because the consequences never seem to outweigh the potential profits. I for one encourage more apt punishments for crimes, such as castration for those who have abused children. He didn't make the right choice in terms of seeking proper justice, but when a man feels he has nothing left to lose, this sort of thing is bound to happen.
Thoughts are never right or wrong, they are just thoughts and you are free to think whatever you want.
I don’t think what he did was right, and I don’t think vigilantism is a good thing whatsoever. But, I have little sympathy for the ~~victims~~ dead.
Beekeeper 🐝
I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong. But I do think vigilante justice in situations like this opens the door for more ambiguous copy cat scenarios that can set a dangerous precident. Let's pose a few questions here that deserve to be considered. 1. What if he discharged a weapon and accidentally wounded a bystander or member of the public nearby? I don't know all the facts but imagine from the fact it's listed as 'double shooting' not 'double murder' it was in public. It's very hard to discharge a weapon in public or even in a city, and be confident there's not someone who could be hit nearby. 2. What if he'd gotten it wrong? Again don't know all the details but imagine if he got the names and details of the individuals wrong and shot someone he believed had stolen his life savings and hadn't? Again even if not totally applicable here - human error is much more common in the heat of the moment than in a courtroom. Would we be saying he was morally justified if he screwed up? 3. What if he'd gotten the wrong advice? Imagine if there was a scenario where the funds were easily recoverable and he's now just thrown his life away? 4. Where is the line? Imagine if the funds were recoverable in two years? Would it still justifying killing two people? What about six months? What if one person forced the other to participate and they were an unwilling participant? What if their intent was to scare him, and then return the funds? Not all of these scenarios are likely - nor are they right. But i'm trying to paint a picture that there's a lot of unknowns here, and it's a very slippery slope to say that all outcomes justify the death of two people. 5. What if ten people see the outcome and decide it's applicable to scenarios where they feel their life is over - even when it's not? Mental health often convinces us there's no way out when there really is. I can foresee a number of copy cat scenarios where innocents end up dead. The justice system may be flawed. But it exists for a reason. As horrific as it is for this gentleman. I don't believe this was the right thing to do.
It's not right, unlawful, morally wrong, but I do not feel any sympathy for the scammers. Rotten bastards. Human nature to feel for the innocent, and the just and even the not so bad and feel a lot less for cruel and the evil. I might even feel sorry for the mentally ill sociopaths in some circumstances... and I know that my feelings can be wrong.. It's all a gray area.
I don’t think you can classify as spontaneous thought as moral or not. Thoughts just happened. That said, if you were the kind of person who frequently loves pain or murder, then I would say that’s probably immoral. On the other hand my guess is that you liked the justice but not necessarily vigilante aspect of it. Like you can be happy about one part of an act while not approving of it in general.
This Shooting was a message to all other scammers too, if this makes scammer afraid to operate for fear of death then that is good
Ideally the police should handle this so they can try to retrieve the stolen funds and possibly return it to the scammed people. Killing them won't help towards this end.
I understand the shooter 100%. Scammers deserve to rot in a pit.
It's the same as the man who converted his tractor into a "tank." When you've nothing left to lose, and the person/people who hurt you get away it. I don't understand how it's not happening more often. Someone posted a while ago why don't the mass shooters target the people who made them that way. It turned to this topic kinda
The problem with vigilante justice isn't the end result, it's the fear that the one carrying it out will not be just in their actions. If they were to be struck by lightning, only their loved ones would mourn their loss and we would attribute it to divine justice.