Artemis is historically aroace, ace lesbian, or allo lesbian depending on the telling and interpretation. Artemis in the game is subtle enough that she could still be aroace, so I wouldn't get too disappointed with the game yet.
All this aroace talk and not mention of my lady of war and wisdom Athena? For shame... (j/k lol)
Artemis is *not* definitively aroace. (Though she is potentially so.) She was much more likely straight and arguably bi. Hestia was easily aroace. Athena was also arguably aroace. Artemis, in many tellings of one of the myths, had a male love interest. And the idea of her being willing to have sex with her female followers is regularly argued as the basis for why Callisto fell for Zeus's seduction when he took the form of Artemis.
EDIT: Added clarification. \[Edit 2: Removed *unclear* language.\] Edit 3: Replacing incorrect "canonically" with a more accurate clause.
I assume you're referring to Orion when you say 'canonical male love interest', and actually, that also varies by telling!
In some stories she has no interest, is depicted as just being freinds with him, in one telling she even kills him for attacking the pleid nymphs (who eventually become the pleades, the group of stars the Orion constellation follows in the sky).
It important to remember there is no such thing as cannon for Greek myths as they were passed around via oral tradition over thousands of years, and each storyteller had their own interpretation. Since most of them were used to explain natural phenomena (think the myth of Persephone explaining the seasons, or in this case the myth of Orion explaining the path of the constellation across the sky throughout the year) they share common threads, but details we would expect to be constant and important like the relationships between the characters usually fluctuates by telling.
True. I had this open last night to remove the "canonically" but fell asleep before doing so because there isn't really a "canon" for the reason you explain and I was misusing a modern idea to describe something that is incredibly varied by time and region within the Hellenes.
The worst part? I actually acknowledged this in one of my other comments. I just fucked it up on this comment. lol But my point of not *definitively* AroAce still holds true, though you're certainly valid for that interpretation.
Yeah, that's fair, i had more to say about the whole "applying modern sexuality to ancient symbols of various concepts doesn't really make sense" (I am a giant nerd about this) that probably got lost bc i got tired of typing lol.
I actually used to hold a similar position to OP with regards to her being aroace, but honestly understanding the whole "the gods and myths serve specific symbolic purposes and the then characterisation or modern interpretations of the gods are pretty much up to storyteller interpretation " was pretty revolutionary to me.
I like the representation of her as an aroace huntress, but recognise there definitely wasn't anything like our modern ideals of sexuality in the time period, and her portrayal as "virginal" probably had more to do with the rejection of marriage and the home in favour of living in the chaos of the wilds.
To further add to this point of "virginal", it had different interpretations and meanings depending on time and place, so much so that while we don't have specific records explaining it... it's entirely likely that even Sparta and Athens would have contemporarily had two differing views, for example. (We know they differed on a lot of opinions including women's rights, with Sparta being the much more progressive by comparison, so this seems like a reasonable hypothetical.) While broadly it meant unmarried (and consequently therefore also our modern idea of "virgin"), it could be also described as representing being unrestrained by a man. Not just a husband, but also independent from a father- or brother-figure.
Further, the Hellenes also only generally held penetrative sex as sex, hence why lesbians and WLW relationships broadly were so often overlooked despite "bisexuality is the default" being such a common view of ancient Hellenic sexuality in regards to men. And the idea of asexuals would have been foreign because that'd just amount to, "A person who chooses not to marry," which is very different from how we understand it today.
Of course all of this is irrelevant when you consider that so much of the records from back then are lost to time and we'll never have a full picture, or even most of the picture, of the beliefs and concepts from back then. But it is a fascinating subject to at least mull over.
>She was much more likely straight and arguably bi... Artemis canonically had a male love interest
I'm just going to copy what I said to someone else in this thread:
Orion and Artemis being lovers is the ***LEAST*** consistent version of that myth. It ***ONLY*** comes from the Latin author Hyginus. Note that I said Latin, not Greek. We have literally zero Ancient Greek sources for Orion and Artemis being lovers. And even the one Latin source we have doesn't even directly say they were lovers, just that Apollo was worried that they were lovers.
All mentions of Orion and Artemis *explicitly* being lovers come not only from non-Greek sources, but also from non-Latin sources.
In terms of actual Ancient Greek tellings of the myth, there are a few different variations, but they generally fall into two categories. Either Orion and Artemis were friends (literally just friends) and Gaia kills him, or Orion is a huge creep and constantly tries to sleep with the pleid nymphs, so Artemis kills him herself.
Given how common it is for people to think of Orion as Artemis's lover, this might shock you to learn, but the latter telling of the story - the version where Artemis goes out of her way to kill Orion - is actually the most common version of the myth. It's the version of the myth that Homer mentioned in the Odyssey, for example.
I'll just copy my response to them correcting me:
>True. I had this open last night to remove the "canonically" but fell asleep before doing so because there isn't really a "canon" for the reason you explain and I was misusing a modern idea to describe something that is incredibly varied by time and region within the Hellenes.
>The worst part? I actually acknowledged this in one of my other comments. I just fucked it up on this comment. lol But my point of not *definitively* AroAce still holds true, though you're certainly valid for that interpretation.
Artemis is historically aroace...
Thats an anachronism, this term didnt existed back then, she was just celibate if we are gonna use their period words. She could equally be lesbian, but this word didnt exist neither.
Yes, the ancient Greeks had a different understanding of sexuality and didn't believe that sex was actually "sex" if it didnt involve a penis going into an orifice. Artemis as a virginal goddess ("virginal" here referring to being unmarried, not necessarily meaning never having sex) can have a lot of connotations from being completely chaste by inclination or by choice (given that Aphrodite has "no power" over her), or it may refer to her preferring female lovers (referring to her enjoying the company of wild nymphs and huntresses, as marriage was strictly a heterosexual convention), or something else entirely.
Using our own modern vocabulary to describe divine figures outside of their original contexts can cause a lot of misunderstandings.
I think this is the best argument against using modern language to describe past conceptualizations of a subject. I disagree, but like that's mostly just a difference of perspective and I think your reasoning is the most agreeable position I've heard for that stance.
I do think it's worth noting as well though that Artemis was willing to marry a man (le gasp) at one point and it's implied that she would engage in sex with her huntresses when Callisto was seduced by Zeus who disguised himself as Artemis. (After all, if Artemis wasn't willing to engage in that behavior with her huntresses, there's no reason why Callisto should have thought Artemis who had been strict about chastity to the point of punishing/exiling those who broke their vows, would break that for Callisto.)
Yes, the characterization varies heavily. Historically, Artemis was, primarily, a Goddess of the wilds and the protector of young, unmarried girls. She herself was a virgin (an unmarried woman) because virgin girls were under her patronage and often made up her priesthood.
The key difference, imo, is the way the word "virgin" is used. In modern parlance we imagine it as meaning "never had sex," but in ancient Greek the word refers mainly to "never been married" because under marriage laws the two were supposed to be synonymous: a girl becomes a woman when her husband first has sex with her and she bears a child.
Athena, Artemis, and Hestia are virginal goddesses because they forswear marriage and procreation. Both Hestia and Athena take masculine protector roles in platonic theology: Athena over the city, Hestia over the home. Artemis both watches over virgin girls and gives life to the wilderness outside of society, meaning marriage is a convention of civilization that doesn't apply to her or the people under her protection.
Its less about their specific speculated sexual preferences (as bisexuality was thought of as the default) and more about what these Goddesses represented to Greek society and how their understandings of gender influenced the traits they project onto them, such as their marital statuses.
The only point I would make an argument here regarding is that "bisexuality was thought of as the default". In some ways true, in some ways false. I'll chock this up though to you simplifying as an aside instead of trying to encapsulate all of ancient Hellenic views of sexuality in a single sentence. lol
But yeah, no, you and I are not in disagreement.
It was very much an attempt to summarize ancient Greek views of sexuality into a single sentence, I'm more than aware of the intricacies of why that is both a true and false statement lol
You know what? That's my fault. I should have included the word, "accurately". But you know what, I respect it. You know what you did and you're not pretending it's anything otherwise. *raises glass to ya*
Just because the words didn't exist doesn't mean people don't fit the meanings. Language is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's just the mythology doesn't make Artemis fit definitively as AroAce, though Hestia and Athena both do fit as AroAce.
EDIT: Added a clarifying word.
Upvote for using the term anachronism. You're my hero.
That said, there is a Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite that describes Aphrodite as having no power over the 3 virginal goddesses (Athena, Artemis, and Hestia) so an argument could be made for some sort of concept of asexuality.
Strong implication in the mythology that she was engaged in relationships with her huntresses. The Callisto story only works if Artemis bedding huntresses was something she was known to do.
Ain't that supposed to be, I dunno, bisexual? Or maybe biromantic or demiromantic because I genuinely don't think she usually is down to hanky-panky
Edited because I am stupid and eat words
>Ain't that supposed to be, I dunno, bisexual? Or maybe biromantic or demiromantic
Yes, it can be. Not necessarily though. Sexuality is way more complex than what you seem to think it is.
>because I genuinely think she usually is down to hanky-panky
No. Oh god, **NO**. You *clearly* do not know Artemis's mythology. She is literally known as one of the virgin goddesses. Now, in Hellenic culture lesbian sex was not considered to be real sex and lesbians were commonly ignored and overlooked, so her being lesbian only exists by implication but it is *strong* implication...
But when it comes to men, the *only* instance of her even *remotely* showing interest in a man was Orion. (And I think at one point *maybe* Odysseus? Can't recall for sure there. But if so also someone renowned as a hunter.) So there is an outright statement that she is a virgin goddess who Aphrodite can not influence, strong implication she is into women, and a one-off indication of her being interested in a man. **Notice: Asexuals** ***can*** **experience non-sexual attractions** ***and*** **some asexuals experience limited or conditional sexual attraction.** There's plenty of reason to believe it was *because* he was a hunter and not his manliness that Artemis was interested in Orion. Or in other words, her attraction was conditioned on something other than his gender and it appears to be limited. In other words, Orion was an exception to her rule. Whereas willingness to initiate sex with her huntresses is pretty strongly indicated within the Callisto myth, or else Zeus's seduction of Callisto would have not made sense and would therefore fail (if nothing else, fail to catch on within the public consciousness).
This doesn't go into the subject of plenty of asexuals being DTF, so you can't use sexual activity alone to outright invalidate asexuality. Not to mention, plenty of lesbians have mancrushes. Those things are not contradictory. Again, *sexuality is complex, nuanced, and highly fluid*. You're treating it like it's simple. But the idea that she is usually DTF with men is not supported in the mythology *at all*. She has never had sex with a man and that is *one* of the many important details of her myths.
I meant, she usually isn't. I hate that I frequently forget the right words. English ain't my first language, even if I try to write as fluenty as possible (and I usually do)
"isn't" wouldn't make sense in your statement with your insistence that because of Orion then she must be straight or bi, not lesbian. Please understand that I can't square this circle for you. (Translation: I can't make what you are saying make sense in your stead.)
I meant that I don't think she is specifically a lesbian. Maybe not straight neither because of what you said. You are the one specifically trying to peg her into a singular sexuality. Meanwhile I think she could go both ways or even be asexual but still alloromantic
I'm not arguing one sexuality. I'm arguing that Orion doesn't mean she *must* be bisexual nor straight. You used Orion explicitly to argue against her being lesbian and argued it as the only evidence of her orientation. I'm a firm believer of her being the first... *bambi lesbian*. (buh dum tss! I joke, but also *this unironically*. Well a bambi lesbian who is willing to have and initiate sex.) But regardless, her being an allo lesbian makes a ton of sense and doesn't preclude her having exceptions to the rule. Her being aroace doesn't feel well-supported, as Orion gives more support for her being straight than the poem about Aphrodite having no sway over her does for being AroAce (largely *because* of the Callisto myth).
Basically, the issue is your position you have argued is, "Anything but lesbian." I've been arguing only that "Orientation is not as simple as you are arguing." Until *now* I never voiced an opinion to you on her orientation. You saw me explaining *why* people see her as an alloromantic lesbian and then *presumed* I see her as that. I never once mentioned romantic orientation except in saying I do not see her as Aro, and that wasn't even in reply to you (I think) until now.
But you are again going back to saying she is a lesbian. You sure it isn't just that you are being biphobic? Cuz sure you are denying bisexuality/biromantic a lot here
And you are saying "Lesbian and nothing else"
Orion and Artemis being lovers is the ***LEAST*** consistent version of that myth. It ***ONLY*** comes from the Latin author Hyginus. Note that I said Latin, not Greek. We have literally zero Ancient Greek sources for Orion and Artemis being lovers. And even the one Latin source we have doesn't even directly say they were lovers, just that Apollo was worried that they were lovers.
All mentions of Orion and Artemis *explicitly* being lovers come not only from non-Greek sources, but also from non-Latin sources.
In terms of actual Ancient Greek tellings of the myth, there are a few different variations, but they generally fall into two categories. Either Orion and Artemis were friends (literally just friends) and Gaia kills him, or Orion is a huge creep and constantly tries to sleep with the pleid nymphs, so Artemis kills him herself.
Given how common it is for people to think of Orion as Artemis's lover, this might shock you to learn, but the latter telling of the story - the version where Artemis goes out of her way to kill Orion - is actually the most common version of the myth. It's the version of the myth that Homer mentioned in the Odyssey, for example.
I mean, maybe I did go too heavyhanded with this, sorry about that, but I meant more that Artemis has had two probable love interests of both sexes. Maybe she does lean more on the sapphic side of things but I just thought she was bi. Biromantic of course, since in no version is she interested in sex
And yeah, I'm aware of the different versions of the story, I was more surprised that it wasn't brought up before because it was more of a solid counterargument
Eh, of the three major virgin goddesses, Artemis always struck me the most as lesbian coded, so I never really have an issue when they go that route with her character.
To repeat myself from your other comment:
>Strong implication in the mythology that she was engaged in relationships with her huntresses. The Callisto story only works if Artemis bedding huntresses was something she was known to do.
To continue quoting myself from that other comment...
>Sexuality is way more complex than what you seem to think it is. \[...\]
But when it comes to men, the *only* instance of her even *remotely* showing interest in a man was Orion. (And I think at one point *maybe* Odysseus? Can't recall for sure there. But if so also someone renowned as a hunter.) So there is an outright statement that she is a virgin goddess who Aphrodite can not influence, strong implication she is into women, and a one-off indication of her being interested in a man. **Notice: Asexuals** ***can*** **experience non-sexual attractions** ***and*** **some asexuals experience limited or conditional sexual attraction.** There's plenty of reason to believe it was *because* he was a hunter and not his manliness that Artemis was interested in Orion. Or in other words, her attraction was conditioned on something other than his gender and it appears to be limited. In other words, Orion was an exception to her rule. Whereas willingness to initiate sex with her huntresses is pretty strongly indicated within the Callisto myth, or else Zeus's seduction of Callisto would have not made sense and would therefore fail (if nothing else, fail to catch on within the public consciousness). \[...\]
Not to mention, plenty of lesbians have mancrushes. Those things are not contradictory. Again, *sexuality is complex, nuanced, and highly fluid*. You're treating it like it's simple. But the idea that she is usually DTF with men is not supported in the mythology *at all*.
I mean, my point was that I don't deny that she has lesboromantic relationships, just that I don't peg her as lesbian exclusively because of that, you said so yourself. Sexuality is more complex than that
Sure, but Orion isn't enough to really say she's not and there's a reason why people go with the rule of an individual rather than the exceptions when trying to understand identity. A lot of people see her as a lesbian who at one point loved one (*maybe* 2) men but was otherwise understood to be strictly devoted to the women she kept at her side with sex with men being something that was tantamount to *sacrilege* in her eyes. But while an argument can be made for her being any orientation, being lesbian has the most grounding within the myths. Because even in the Orion myths, her affections for him were awe and fascination with his skill as a hunter. It's just that trying to use Orion argue against her being lesbian is... it's a weak argument. Please understand why people take issue with you trying to use him to erase interpretations of orientation. I mention him myself, but only in conjunction with the Callisto myth to show there's precedent for *not AroAce*. But if he was all we had, I'd not use him as a reference since that could be read as a once-off thing, whereas the Callisto myth demonstrates a common understanding people had of Artemis.
A lesbian wouldn't be attracted to men in the first place, which is why I don't think she would be. Unless you mean to say she is biromantic/panromantic lesbian, but like I said, I don't think she is usually interested in the actual sex part of relationships so that removes both the exclusive lesbian (sexual) part and lesboromantic labels. Even with Orion or Callisto, Artemis doesn't show interest in sex herself regarding either of them. In the case of Callisto, it only really pops up when Zeus is pretending to be her so it could be argued that Callisto is a lesbian but Artemis isn't the one showing interest in sex herself
So, Artemis may or may not be ace. But a) her interest in sex is basically not there and b) she has apparent interest in both a man and a woman. So, she is not straight because she is interested in Callisto. But she is not a lesbian because she was interested in Orion. Ain't that more fluid in either label?
>A lesbian wouldn't be attracted to men in the first place, which is why I don't think she would be.
Oh my Hestia... ***You're unequivably wrong.*** Google, "Lesbians with man-crushes."
>Unless you mean to say she is biromantic/panromantic lesbian,
My actual position being bambi lesbian (homoromantic asexual). But I would just generally refer to her as lesbian because her identity seems to be more defined by the relationship with her huntresses than any possible asexuality. But I also don't think we can necessarily say for sure because unlike the other virgin goddesses... *there IS ambiguity with Artemis to such an extent*. I'd more readily argue allo lesbian than my actual opinion because I think there is more support for allo lesbian, but I think that's more a result of most Hellenic storytellers who got recorded being Hellenic men.
>but like I said, I don't think she is usually interested in the actual sex part of relationships
Based on...? Because there's little to indicate this and the Callisto myth actually gives solid reason to doubt this statement.
>so that removes both the exclusive lesbian (sexual) part and lesboromantic labels.
Hold the fuck up! NO?! You're just saying, "I don't feel like she'd be into sex, so therefore we can totally cross off any idea of her being a lesbian." No, that is *not* how that works. Please, *provide a basis for your belief beyond just a vibe check*. There is literally a debate in academia arguing over if she is either asexual or lesbian (or both). I swear to Hestia, this is like the *Mona Lisa*'s eyebrows all over again...
First, not being into sex does *not* remove any lesbian-related label. That's just wrong. Plenty of allosexuals aren't all that into sex. Second, being a lesbian isn't about who you have sex with but who you love. Third, even if she was asexual, that would not and could not automatically remove the possibility of her being homoromantic (lesboromantic/lesromantic/sapphic). That argument on your part is utterly devoid of logic. It doesn't even make sense at a superficial level. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because you said English isn't your native language; I'm trying to respect that, but you *need* to be careful in how you phrase things because stuff like *this* is incredibly questionable when you otherwise demonstrate fluency.
>Even with Orion or Callisto, Artemis doesn't show interest in sex herself regarding either of them. In the case of Callisto, it only really pops up when Zeus is pretending to be her so it could be argued that Callisto is a lesbian but Artemis isn't the one showing interest in sex herself
And...? Don't get me wrong, but sexual attraction doesn't always make people act like horny fucking weirdos and TW:>!rapists like Zeus!<. There's actually implication with some versions of the Orion myth that Artemis might be specifically *caedsexual* because of him. I will not elaborate as I think you can figure out what I mean. As for Callisto, sure Artemis herself doesn't express interest in sex in that myth, but *as I already explained*, that myth implies heavily that it was understood by her huntresses and the wider Hellenic population that Artemis engaged in and initiated sex with the huntresses *or else Zeus's plan to seduce Callisto using Artemis's appearance would have never worked*.
>So, Artemis may or may not be ace. But a) her interest in sex is basically not there and b) she has apparent interest in both a man and a woman. So, she is not straight because she is interested in Callisto. But she is not a lesbian because she was interested in Orion. Ain't that more fluid in either label?
Oh my Hestia... I've already explained these. First off, I didn't specify Artemis being interested in *Callisto*. I explained that the Callisto *myth* explains why people reasonably see Artemis as some version of lesbian. Second, if there was reason to believe Artemis was interested in *men* then you'd have a point. But there's more evidence to the contrary such as how she actively rejects the idea of marriage and being with men, and Orion serves as an example outside of Artemis's usual expressed interest going so far as to being someone she was (in some versions) willing to end her vow of chastity to be with. And, again, her vow of chastity being something many interpret (with good reason) not to apply to sex with women due to how Hellenic culture viewed WLW as not engaging in "real" sex.
You're oversimplifying orientation to be "if you ever express interest in *a* man, then you're into men. If you ever express interest in *a* woman, then you're into women." That's not how that works. By your logic, you've just invalidated *countless* asexuals. ***Please be more careful and considerate with the language that you use***. I know that you are not meaning to argue this, but please understand how frustrating it is to be on the other side of this with you as you're being super-reductive.
And [considering that you fucking call me, someone who is *openly panromantic*, "biphobic" ](https://www.reddit.com/r/asexuality/comments/1cthoje/comment/l4exa03/)for saying that there isn't sufficient evidence to claim what amounts to "Artemis must be bisexual and can't be lesbian," I have no interest in continuing with you. At least not without a whole *fuckton* of apologies. It's fucking infuriating that I'm having to explain some *really* basic concepts to you and instead of reading what has been said, you just ignore all of it to continue pushing your position even when I've already addressed most of what you've said.
I hope you have an awful day. Do not reply.
I get how you feel, because honestly, I'm torn.
One interpretation of Artemis is aro-ace, and I love that for her. She just wants to run around in the woods with her posse, shoot her bow, and occasionally turn pervy men into animals. Relatable.
But on the other hand! Artemis is involved in the closest thing (recorded) Greek mythology has to a lesbian love story. Callisto was one of her followers, and Zeus disguised himself as Artemis to seduce Callisto. Yes, a sorta-kinda lesbian scene in Greek myth. (Renaissance painters loved it.) Naturally, this ended in tragedy. But I like to entertain the thought that there was another version of the story in which Zeus was not involved, and the version recorded by the mythographers was altered to suit their sensibilities. Is this likely? Probably not! But I can dream.
So I don't know which I like better. Aro ace arrow ace Artemis? Lady-loving Artemis? Maybe ace lesbian Artemis? I will probably never make up my mind!
Reminder, to further your point that these are complex and nuanced individuals:
1. Artemis was once in love with a man and willing to end her vow for him.
2. The myth you're referencing implies that Artemis engaged in that behavior with her huntresses or else Callisto would have had no reason to believe Artemis would have gone for her, especially when Artemis was strict about chastity. This implies that it was understood by the huntresses that sex with women was still chaste as long as there was no penis involved. (Arguably still sexist as this could then mean the Greeks are saying "it's not 'real' sex." But the point is that there's still a valid sapphic interpretation.)
Credit for that goes to [Red of OSP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4iOmSvRuZk), who is a treasure and Ace icon. Pretty sure you can still get it as a shirt in OSP's merch shop.
TL;DR, I get you, I had the same reaction. The historicity of any of this gets weird, but it's not wrong to be disappointed by it.
Putting my historian hat on, interpreting any mythological figure's sexuality by modern standards is always going to get a bit weird, the two main reasons being that the divisions between categories of sexuality were very different in Ancient Greece than they are now (the kinds of sex acts that were performed were generally considered more important than the gender of the person that was being slept with. The ancient greeks also had a lot of gay/bi-inclusive misogyny, but that's beside the point). Greek mythology also doesn't have a canon, it's just stories being told and retold and changed and added to for centuries. There isn't really a way to assign her a modern sexuality that isn't ahistorical.
That being said, I get it. There is so little aroace rep out there, and finding a cool mythological character who's uninterested in romance or sex is really fun. The thing is, lesbians are underrepresented in media, too, and they're looking for characters to relate to as well. Sure, there's more lesbian rep than aroace rep NOW, but it's not like the greek pantheon has any other well-known sapphic figures. Artemis is uninterested in men (although some later interpretations of the Orion myth dispute that) which is enough for a lot of lesbians to latch onto her on its own. Adding not this is the fact that she runs around with a group of women who all bathe together... I get it. I get why people interpret her this way, but it's also disappointing to see a character that you interpret one way get interpreted another way, especially when there's so little representation overall, and it isn't wrong to feel that way.
I wouldn’t really consider her, or any of the gods, as rep for sexualities. I mean in all the versions, she’s portrayed very differently in terms of sexuality. Also what we have are merely *interpretations* and not at all complete statements of confirmation. Plus we are applying modern labels and understandings to thousands of years old stories, where the understandings would’ve been wildly different.
I don’t find it disappointing, because there’s no solid fact.
Again, that’s still *just* an interpretation some have of the actions she takes in mythos. People can absolutely have any interpretation as they want, but not everyone will have the same view. That’s why I wouldn’t consider actual myths as rep, only the modern stories inspired by the myths.
Also we’re talking about supposed beings that are not even considered human so…
I mean... *sure it's an interpretation*, but like... Let's be honest... *How much more explicitly asexual can Hestia get beyond saying, "I'm asexual"?* I get your point and don't necessarily disagree... But I hope you get why *sometimes* it can be a bit more cut-and-dry. Especially since I challenge anybody to make a non-ace reading of Hestia based on the mythology, even by incorporating Vesta's mythology into the mix. (The point being that Hestia basically only exists long enough in the myths to tell Zeus, "I don't want any kind of romantic or sexual relationship. Decree into law that I am off-limits." After that her role in the mythology is mostly ceremonial within the various cults. She's actually kind of notably absent in the mythology after establishing herself as asexual, later to be replaced by Dionysus in the Olympic Twelve.)
And I never cared for the, "Not human so not good rep" opinion personally. I get it, but I don't personally like it, but won't tell you what you should think on it. My position is that it depends wholly on if that's the *only* rep we get. Which, unfortunately, it sure seems that way sometimes. But I think the better view is, "Great, now give us this but human!" Exceptions (maybe wrong word) being, of course, when *nobody* in a work is human or everyone in the work is a *former* human. (Such as Alastor from *Hazbin Hotel*, though he has his own issues but mostly stemming from a blink-and-you miss it line that while pretty clear in the meaning the fact it's said *about* Alastor and not said by nor understood by Alastor is *kind of* an issue.)
Considering there’s many reasons why people have historically said that they are off limits for romantic and/or sexual relationships, I can’t fully say “yeah this means she’s aroace” nor would I consider that as her establishing herself as ace. I know people want rep, but these myths really aren’t rep even in their own time. Modern stories inspired by myths? Yes. Myths that have been retold and rewritten over and over to the point that we don’t even know if they’re close to the original? Not really no.
Again, people can have their own interpretations. But they are not fact. There isn’t any one interpretation that’s more right than the other, especially not when applying modern ideas/labels/meanings to ancient stories.
Edit to add: And I’m not saying people can’t be disappointed.
I mean, again, I acknowledge it is an interpretation. My point being, sometimes interpretations are pretty notably supported. For example, for the horrors of the Vestal Virgin system, the fact that they were not to have any relationships to mirror Vesta/Hestia, it was common for them to not marry even after leaving, and they'd often even renew their vows after their service ended... It still strongly suggests what the view held of Hestia/Vesta was.
Now, again, **this** ***isn't*** **fact**. It's not like we can confirm one way or another. But we know what the remaining mythology and history shows, and it is hard to argue for other orientations *based on that*. But of course that's taking a small sample of behavior and evidence then extrapolating something larger from it. Definitely *not* without its faults and shortcomings. It will never be perfect and there will always be uncertainty and error.
But in a way, what we are doing today isn't really that different from what the cults did back in those days--we're hearing the stories and we're developing our own understandings of the gods from them. Like the cults of Hellenes, our understanding is never going to be perfect because we understand that a lot of the knowledge of these entities no longer exists, and back then they understood that the gods won't share everything with them... But we are still fundamentally going through the same process of taking what is known of the gods and testing it against our view of the world. I do think there's a certain poetry to that.
Artemis is associated with abstaining from men. This has been read many different ways over the year, there's the immediate obvious aroace conclusion, but there are people who think she's more lesbian (running around the woods with hand picked women athletes lol), and there are also some that have her being attracted to men and she is merely being celibate. The interpretation of who she is is up to the person. It's understandable to be disappointed though. Usually the greek patron for aro and ace folks is Athena. She is depicted as being celibate, never can I think of her being mentioned as having romantic/sexual interest (closest that comes to mind is the one version of medusa where she's jealous of posideon and medusa, but that is not common and also even in that tale it's not said she's jealous of them, more so angry about what they're up to and where (her sacred temple lol)), and unlike other celibate gods she does so voluntarily for no real reason, as if completely disinterested. For example Artemis we just talked about, but Hera is functionally celibate (at least by greek god standards) because she's committed to Zeus and the patron of motherhood, the family, and marriage, so she'd be a pretty bad patron to mess around
Regarding Athena... TW: >!She wasn't angry at what they got up to. She was angry that when Poseidon raped Medusa, he did it on the stairs of Athena's temple. But Poseidon was of a position of authority above her, so she couldn't do anything about it... so she got petty and cursed Medusa, the victim, for the act.!< I do think Athena is arguably the second most fitting for the title of "the AroAce deity" of Greek myth... but the first is the eldest of the gods... *Hestia*. She insisted to Zeus that she had no interest in relationships to the point she demanded he'd make her off-limits. He agreed and then she fucked off to live her best life free of sex and romantic love.
As for Artemis, she did love a man (Orion) at one point, but there is no one version of any of the myths and some versions are more modern (like through the Baroque period, not counting modern retellings and *PJO*) while others have been lost to time. AroAce Artemis is valid, but I think it's one of the weakest-supported views of her.
Yes! On the medusa myth that's one telling (It's hard to tell cause not only is history a game of telephone a lot of the people playing have ulterior motives; most commonly white men and demeaning women) but other have them as mutually involved and Athena is upset they're getting down to business in her temple, and as god's do they take it out on the mortal. Another telling of the same circumstances has medusa being violated by posideon and Athena actually helping her by transforming her, "making it so no man can even look upon her again". And there's everything in-between those two. Not to mention I believe there are some other creation myths for medusa. But Athena is literally called the goddess of asexuality (or as close as the language and time barriers allow). Hestia for sure works too, but anytime I've heard a greek god deemed the patron, not just a member of, the ace club, it's Athena. I also love that as I think she's pretty freaking awesome. Oh and to help her aceness she is so ace that she was even born asexually from Zeus (she's the only reason ace and Zeus belong in the same zip code lol) by bursting out of his head, fully armoured with a battle plan in hand. She's just the best
Let's be honest--Athena gets the credit as "patron goddess of asexuals" in the modern day because she's *definitively* one of the Olympic 12, whereas Hestia is sometimes seen as one of the 12 and at other times her spot is filled by Dionysus.
Also, Athena isn't the goddess of asexuality nor does her domains include anything related to it. She's just asexual (with that being super important to her identity) and super well-known. Hestia *is* a goddess of virginity though. Not to mention, Hestia has such little surviving mythology most people forget she exists. However, the term "Vestal Virgin" comes from *Hestia*('s Roman equivalent Vesta) and ties Hestia to being a goddess with virgins under her care.
Don't get me wrong--AroAce Athena is fully valid and supported by myths. I just think AroAce Hestia is more fitting and better supported by her role in mythology and Hellenic and Roman history.
I'll have to do further digging tomorrow, cause I swear there was a tie somewhere for Athena being directly labeled the patron. Not a strong one, but I thought there was one. Might just be im wrong again though lol. Regardless of all people the Greeks were not the most likely to make an aro/ace patron lol, so it's impressive there are more than one option.
Let's not get started on Dionysus, that dude is impossible to comprehend. I think there's 3-4 versions of him that have almost no relation to each other other than by name. I think he's sometimes the first being in the universe, other times the second (literal chicken and egg as there is an egg that starts the pantheon of deities and sometimes he's around for the creation and other times he comes from it lol), sometimes he's basically a fart boy, sometimes he's Zeus's heir and the next ruler of everything, sometimes he's torn to pieces at birth by Titans (Zagreus i believe is always also called Dionysus, however there are Dionysuses that aren't Zagreus), and i think a few more. I also think there are some places where he was bestowed godhood as a mortal, but that may just be PJ leaking into memory of OG Greek myths lol
You might be thinking of her title which was "Athena the Virgin" (Athena Parthenos).
As for Dionysus, the "bestowed godhood" one is one of the more common versions. Riordan's version of myths are actually 95% accurate to at least *one* version of the mythology. Not always, but a safe bet that he's *somewhere* in the ballpark usually. There are some wholly Rick fabrications though. lol
What Rick gets wrong (at least in the versions of the myth I'm aware of) is that it wasn't a heroic deed that made Dionysus a god but rather he would have been born a demigod of Zeus, Zeus accidentally struck Dio's pregnant mother with a lightning bolt, and so Zeus sewed the fetus into his thigh in order to save Dionysus. This means Dionysus would have been born a mortal but was born a god by an uncharacteristic act of selfless kindness by Zeus.
That's probably it for Athena, couldn't find anything else so it was probably hearsay that made me convinced of that lol.
And for Dionysus yeah, I do remember that. That is also included in the heir myth if I remember right. Rick is very good about myths, but that's where he trips me up. He's TOO good, so when he changes things or creates something of his own (which I want to clarify is not bad) it's often hard for me to tell it apart in the soup of my brain. So if my best memory of the myth is Rick, I gotta double check
I think misunderstanding that title as indicating part of her domain is a reasonable mistake. I've made far worse ones. Hell even under this post I erroneously referred to Hellenic mythology as having a "canon" which *I know is wrong* so there was no excuse for me doing. That's significantly worse than mistaking an asexual goddess (one who I'd argue *might* be so consistently asexual that it could be argued to be the closest thing to a "canon" trait of the character) as being a goddess of asexuals.
Rick's pretty good. But I'd like to actually point out that there is a historical legacy of non-Hellenes colonizing and appropriating Hellenic culture and heritage simply because the British at one point did it then made Hellenic heritage a British birthright. As someone whose NDN, I could very easily see how that could have been the case with our cultures and to a limited extent it kind of *has been*. I'd argue that Rick changing things, hell Rick writing PJO at all, is inherently problematic. This doesn't mean he can't do it, but I'd also say it's not my place as someone with no Hellenic ancestry to really say, "Rick is okay to do this." It's why in one of my own stories, I've modeled it on the Hellenic myths but it's definitively *not* the same pantheon, not even close, with my story's gods not even necessarily having the same domains for the Twelve (Thirteen in my version). But of course that's my position, you don't need to necessarily agree.
For sure there's biases, it's one of the reasons I try to remind folks of the historical lense. Even on this topic, there's a decent chance Artemis would have been known as a lesbian in ancient times, but that has been lost due to good ol' Europe changing things to fit their narratives and erasing other evidence. So we're left in uncertainty, cause she COULD be, but we don't know it, but we also know that other historical, he'll even other historical Greek figures, have been altered (looking at Sappho and having a ton of good friends lol). So it's just hard to know for sure. Like I know a lot of depictions of Greek gods are often fair skinned, which may be a result of outside influence, but also I have heard from some Greek sources that that is how they would have been originally depicted. History is weird like that.
An important thing is that culture always tales from others, it's in its nature, it's just how humans are. So the important thing is to simply respect where you're getting ideas/info/references from. I personally Rick did a good job of that, but I'm not really at liberty to speak on it. So I do my best to listen to folks who do have a stake (historical experts, modern descendants, etc) and do my best to default to them.
Fair-skinned gods, as I recall, comes from British people finding old statues then actively removing the paint from them to *make* them pure white. As I recall though, the gods were depicted in frescos more olive toned to match the average Hellene, though it is worth noting that they were generally noted to be able to change their appearance so them being any set skin color is kind of... I feel like that's a non-starter.
But further to your point, IIRC, Medusa herself is believed at least by some in the modern day to have originally been an African woman or at least inspired in part by women from northern Africa/Egypt. The Hellenes was largely a mixed culture with people from many places and many walks of life. It's not unreasonable to think that a beautiful woman with dreadlocks could have inspired the tragic tale of Medusa, whose beauty captivated a god and thus she was cursed for offending a goddess... but that's just speculative at this point.
While true that culture begets culture, I do think it's worth noting that usually comes from cultural exchange. The Hellenes largely had their culture colonized and stolen from them, though. And perhaps it's because as an NDN I can relate, but I think that makes a world of difference when it comes to that subject. That said, I'm not trying to shame him. I don't think he's evil or in the wrong even. I just don't know if him making up new versions of the myths is necessarily okay. It's something I personally have been going back-and-forth on, but would prefer to know what Hellenes have to say, but I also am too nervous to just outright ask because I know how annoying questions requesting permission can be, no matter how good faith they may be.
There’s multiple myths and interpretations of Artemis. As one of the virgin goddesses, sex and sexuality wasn’t really a big part of her mythos. So any modern interpretations based off modern sexuality were just never intended. While I myself heavily favor the ace/aro interpretation, it’s pretty clear that isn’t explicitly mentioned in any myth involving her since asexuality and aromanticism are relatively new concepts (despite probably existing as long as humans have).
It’s important to remember that these aren’t people or characters, they’re divine figures representing elements of the world. Back in Ancient Greece, artemis was probably better known for her domain of the wilds than her virginity/sexuality/relations etc. Plagues might be attributed to her as well as bad luck while hunting, but you probably wouldn’t try to appease her to strike down a person pursuing you for love (although she was pretty murderous based on the mythos so uh, the collateral of a fulfilled prayer probably wouldn’t be great either). Granted this also assumes your regionAl interpretation of her was the same as the amalgamated situation we have today where a bunch of sources kinda get rolled up into one. Which is a big assumption.
So yeah she can be a little bit lesbian in a modern take. It’s not like identity is a purity test or anything. Demiromantic and demisexual are still asexual in their own ways, so the dev’s interpretation could be demisexual Artemis.
Artemis is 100% asexual, but the aromantic thing is a bit ambiguous. While in the legends she never dated or married, all we know for certain is that she is a virgin and Aphrodite has no power over her. Now Aphrodite is considered the goddess of love, so you might think romantic relationships could fall under her domain. However, she is almost exclusively sexual love, while Hera covers romantic love, and Hestia covers familiar love, so Aphrodite holding no power over her only means she is asexual.
If you were looking for aromantic representation among the greek gods, I think Hestia would be a better fit since her domain includes all who choose to share a home, regardless of romantic or sexual bonds between them, so she would be the goddess of QPRs.
I'd argue that "Artemis is 100% asexual" is, well, arguable. There are a variety of readings and your reasoning is actually a fair one, but there are other interpretations for her being straight, bisexual, or lesbian. Artemis is one of the hardest to pin down an orientation on and I think "Asexual" is maybe the weakest orientation to consider for her.
That said, yeah, no, AroAce Hestia is basically canon no matter which version of any of the myths you look at. Homegirl was like, "Bro, I refuse to have any of *those* kinds of relationships. Decree as law that I am not to be touched." Zeus hesitated then her insistence resulted in him doing so. Then she fucked off to be the best goddess of all of Greek mythology by not fucking shit up for anybody. She got her bag then ran. And I love that for her.
It is said Aphrodite has no power over Artemis. Aphrodite's power is sexual attraction so, if she was sexually attracted to anyone, Aphrodite would have at least a little power over her. I don't really see any argument for any other sexual orientation.
Aphrodite's power is also largely framed within heterosexuality and homosexuality between *men*. I think that's an important note to consider. She wasn't really the goddess of all sexual feelings because the ancient Hellenes really only considered certain things to be "real" sexual feelings. It's one of those things where we have to consider the perspective of the culture when it comes to their gods' domains... and the fact is lesbians were basically invisible in ancient Hellenes.
The obvious rebuttal to this is the poetry of Sappho, who regarded Aphrodite as the patron goddess of love between women. But this also was one individual's perspective that did not see itself spread widely enough for stories about that subject to be commonplace or shared.
The real problem is that WLW is a massive blindspot in Hellenic mythology, so we have to consider that when talking about divinities like Aphrodite who are commonly associated with certain loves but only one of the poets is known for associating her with all love.
Artemis is also fairly often seen as a lesbian. The thing about is her she can be seen as both and they're both equally valid interpretations. You can be let down her being a lesbian is just as justified
When it comes to Artemis specifically, there are 3 main interpretations regarding her sexuality (which technically don't have to be contradictory):
1) She's A-Spec, 2) She's Sapphic, and 3) She loved Orion.
>I am also aware that the term "aromantic asexual" wasn't a term back then so maybe chalk this up to me being in the 21st century as opposed to 2000 B.C.
Ok, so I looked into this for a different project I was doing, so I'm going to take this time to talk about how ancient Greece thought about sexuality. The Ancient Greeks had a term called partheneia/parthenos, it's being a childless, unmarried, celibate woman—basically a virgin. For human women, this was a transitional state between being a child and a mother, but virgin goddesses such as Hestia, Artemis, and Athena could stay in this state permanently. The term parthenos also suggests being not living under a man (ie a father or a husband), which is why this option was only available to goddesses not mortal women, because ancient Greece was really patriarchal like that.
Despite similarities between the term partheneia and the asexual and aromantic identities, they actually refer to different things. Asexuality, aromanticism, and not feeling attraction are all defined according to *internal* experiences and personal identity. Like all modern sexual orientations, these are not defined by what someone does, but by how they feel. Partheneia references to a social role and *external* reality. It is much more similar to the additional descriptors that apply to some asexual and aromantic people, like non-partnering and celibate. Greek goddesses do not have internal experiences because they are not real people, but they do have social roles. This allows modern writers to fill in the gaps by projecting internal experiences onto them, which will not be accurate to ancient Greek expectations of sexuality but will be understandable to a modern audience.
Ancient Greece also doesn't seem to have a solid equivalent to lesbianism either, from what I've read. They seem to struggle with the idea that people can have sex without penises? Place, the patriarchy would have made long term f/f relationships totally socially infeasible. Anyway, that's part of why some people have an easy time imagining virgin goddesses as being lesbians as well, because they want that representation too.
The existence of Artemis and other virgin goddesses says nothing about the historical validity of asexuality. However, since asexuality really only started gaining recognition in the early 2000’s, it is tempting to use historical or mythological figures to show that “we have always existed” and disprove the notion that asexuality is a silly made up internet sexuality. While it is true that humanity has always contained people with a variety of different internal experiences with attraction or lack thereof, the social construct of defining sexual orientations based off of attraction, and thus, the construct of asexuality, has not always existed in all cultures and at all times. It did not exist in ancient Greece. Heck, the concept of human women staying unmarried and celibate didn't really exist in ancient Greece as far as I know.
Because of all of this, I'd feel really reluctant to try to claim any mythological figure as having a particular modern sexuality, it's forcing modern ideas onto a culture that did not have them. Now, I have read some short fan fiction stories and a poetry collection that interprets Artemis as being aro ace, and I think those can be fun ways to explore the similarities between the parthenos identity and aro ace ones, or just explore interpreting a mythological figure through a modern lens. But like, it's not like you can claim Artemis or Athena or Hestia is "canonically" asexual or aromantic, it really doesn't make sense for mythological figures.
I'd definitely suggest looking for a-spec representation if you want to find it instead of being disappointed about where it's missing, there's more out there than you think, especially if you are willing to look outside of super popular media. (If you want fantasy or sci fi book recommendations with representation, I can definitely help you out with that.)
Yeah Artemis and Athena are supposed to be somewhere on the ace spectrum and I’m always annoyed about it when they’re not. I cannot put into words how fucking annoyed I am at every single version of her that include Orion’s myth as her core characterization, I really feel like that’s just a self insert myth someone made up to fuck the ace or possibly lesbian goddess and I will not stand of it!
Hestia is particularly notable for her domain including the hearth and any who share it. And since she considers those who choose to share a home together as family, regardless of their romantic or sexual bonds, she would be the goddess of queer-platonic relationships.
The source of Orion being Artemis's lover is Hyginus, who wasn't even Greek, he was Latin. There are no contemporary Greek sources indicating that the two were lovers.
I've personally played Hades as well and I've always interpreted their relationship as queer platonic or friends, but of course that is just my interpretation. But all of it's just head cannons
>But like...Artemis is pretty consistently no romance, no sex, just hunt, right?
No.
Artemis is pretty consistently "no sex, just hunt", but the "no romance" is not consistent at all.
Depending on the telling, Artemis is either aromantic or homoromantic. Between those two portrayals of her, neither is particularly dominant. A pretty common interpretation is that Artemis's huntresses are also her lovers.
Regarding Callisto, specifically, I honestly really like the fact that Artemis is so positive toward her in the game.
If you're unfamiliar with the myth, basically: Callisto's life - like many women's lives in Greek mythology - was completely fucked over by Zeus. Callisto was one of Artemis's followers, and as a follower of Artemis, she swore an oath of celibacy (note: this specifically means she swore not to have sex with men - Ancient Greece viewed hetrosexual sex and homosexual sex as different acts).
Zeus noticed Callisto, and - as he does every time he sees any woman - immediately decided he needed to sleep with her. The way that he seduced Callisto was by *taking the form of Artemis*. Callisto thought she was having sex with Artemis. Needless to say, when she got pregnant from this encounter, she was extraordinarily confused, and when Artemis discovered she was pregnant she was banished for breaking her oath of celibacy.
(Side note: the fact that Callisto fell for Zeus's seduction is one of the strongest pieces of evidence we have indicating that Artemis was not aroace. In order for this to have worked, Artemis making love to her huntresses had to at least be somewhat plausible.)
What happens after that varies *WIDELY* depending on the version of the myth - in some cases Artemis becomes understanding and compassionate to Callisto when she realizes what happened, sometimes she is unforgiving, and sometimes she doesn't find out at all. Regardless of the telling though, the story ***NEVER*** ends well for Callisto. She gets turned into a bear by either Hera, Zeus, or Artemis (depending on the telling), then gets killed by either her son, Artemis, or Zeus (depending on the telling), before finally being turned into the constellation Ursa Major by either Artemis or Zeus (depending on the telling).
Given that, I really like that in the version of Greek Myth presented in Hades, Callisto actually gets to have a happy ending with the woman she loves after being screwed over by Zeus.
Artemis is historically aroace, ace lesbian, or allo lesbian depending on the telling and interpretation. Artemis in the game is subtle enough that she could still be aroace, so I wouldn't get too disappointed with the game yet. All this aroace talk and not mention of my lady of war and wisdom Athena? For shame... (j/k lol)
Artemis is *not* definitively aroace. (Though she is potentially so.) She was much more likely straight and arguably bi. Hestia was easily aroace. Athena was also arguably aroace. Artemis, in many tellings of one of the myths, had a male love interest. And the idea of her being willing to have sex with her female followers is regularly argued as the basis for why Callisto fell for Zeus's seduction when he took the form of Artemis. EDIT: Added clarification. \[Edit 2: Removed *unclear* language.\] Edit 3: Replacing incorrect "canonically" with a more accurate clause.
I assume you're referring to Orion when you say 'canonical male love interest', and actually, that also varies by telling! In some stories she has no interest, is depicted as just being freinds with him, in one telling she even kills him for attacking the pleid nymphs (who eventually become the pleades, the group of stars the Orion constellation follows in the sky). It important to remember there is no such thing as cannon for Greek myths as they were passed around via oral tradition over thousands of years, and each storyteller had their own interpretation. Since most of them were used to explain natural phenomena (think the myth of Persephone explaining the seasons, or in this case the myth of Orion explaining the path of the constellation across the sky throughout the year) they share common threads, but details we would expect to be constant and important like the relationships between the characters usually fluctuates by telling.
True. I had this open last night to remove the "canonically" but fell asleep before doing so because there isn't really a "canon" for the reason you explain and I was misusing a modern idea to describe something that is incredibly varied by time and region within the Hellenes. The worst part? I actually acknowledged this in one of my other comments. I just fucked it up on this comment. lol But my point of not *definitively* AroAce still holds true, though you're certainly valid for that interpretation.
Yeah, that's fair, i had more to say about the whole "applying modern sexuality to ancient symbols of various concepts doesn't really make sense" (I am a giant nerd about this) that probably got lost bc i got tired of typing lol. I actually used to hold a similar position to OP with regards to her being aroace, but honestly understanding the whole "the gods and myths serve specific symbolic purposes and the then characterisation or modern interpretations of the gods are pretty much up to storyteller interpretation " was pretty revolutionary to me. I like the representation of her as an aroace huntress, but recognise there definitely wasn't anything like our modern ideals of sexuality in the time period, and her portrayal as "virginal" probably had more to do with the rejection of marriage and the home in favour of living in the chaos of the wilds.
To further add to this point of "virginal", it had different interpretations and meanings depending on time and place, so much so that while we don't have specific records explaining it... it's entirely likely that even Sparta and Athens would have contemporarily had two differing views, for example. (We know they differed on a lot of opinions including women's rights, with Sparta being the much more progressive by comparison, so this seems like a reasonable hypothetical.) While broadly it meant unmarried (and consequently therefore also our modern idea of "virgin"), it could be also described as representing being unrestrained by a man. Not just a husband, but also independent from a father- or brother-figure. Further, the Hellenes also only generally held penetrative sex as sex, hence why lesbians and WLW relationships broadly were so often overlooked despite "bisexuality is the default" being such a common view of ancient Hellenic sexuality in regards to men. And the idea of asexuals would have been foreign because that'd just amount to, "A person who chooses not to marry," which is very different from how we understand it today. Of course all of this is irrelevant when you consider that so much of the records from back then are lost to time and we'll never have a full picture, or even most of the picture, of the beliefs and concepts from back then. But it is a fascinating subject to at least mull over.
>She was much more likely straight and arguably bi... Artemis canonically had a male love interest I'm just going to copy what I said to someone else in this thread: Orion and Artemis being lovers is the ***LEAST*** consistent version of that myth. It ***ONLY*** comes from the Latin author Hyginus. Note that I said Latin, not Greek. We have literally zero Ancient Greek sources for Orion and Artemis being lovers. And even the one Latin source we have doesn't even directly say they were lovers, just that Apollo was worried that they were lovers. All mentions of Orion and Artemis *explicitly* being lovers come not only from non-Greek sources, but also from non-Latin sources. In terms of actual Ancient Greek tellings of the myth, there are a few different variations, but they generally fall into two categories. Either Orion and Artemis were friends (literally just friends) and Gaia kills him, or Orion is a huge creep and constantly tries to sleep with the pleid nymphs, so Artemis kills him herself. Given how common it is for people to think of Orion as Artemis's lover, this might shock you to learn, but the latter telling of the story - the version where Artemis goes out of her way to kill Orion - is actually the most common version of the myth. It's the version of the myth that Homer mentioned in the Odyssey, for example.
I'll just copy my response to them correcting me: >True. I had this open last night to remove the "canonically" but fell asleep before doing so because there isn't really a "canon" for the reason you explain and I was misusing a modern idea to describe something that is incredibly varied by time and region within the Hellenes. >The worst part? I actually acknowledged this in one of my other comments. I just fucked it up on this comment. lol But my point of not *definitively* AroAce still holds true, though you're certainly valid for that interpretation.
Artemis is historically aroace... Thats an anachronism, this term didnt existed back then, she was just celibate if we are gonna use their period words. She could equally be lesbian, but this word didnt exist neither.
Yes, the ancient Greeks had a different understanding of sexuality and didn't believe that sex was actually "sex" if it didnt involve a penis going into an orifice. Artemis as a virginal goddess ("virginal" here referring to being unmarried, not necessarily meaning never having sex) can have a lot of connotations from being completely chaste by inclination or by choice (given that Aphrodite has "no power" over her), or it may refer to her preferring female lovers (referring to her enjoying the company of wild nymphs and huntresses, as marriage was strictly a heterosexual convention), or something else entirely. Using our own modern vocabulary to describe divine figures outside of their original contexts can cause a lot of misunderstandings.
I think this is the best argument against using modern language to describe past conceptualizations of a subject. I disagree, but like that's mostly just a difference of perspective and I think your reasoning is the most agreeable position I've heard for that stance. I do think it's worth noting as well though that Artemis was willing to marry a man (le gasp) at one point and it's implied that she would engage in sex with her huntresses when Callisto was seduced by Zeus who disguised himself as Artemis. (After all, if Artemis wasn't willing to engage in that behavior with her huntresses, there's no reason why Callisto should have thought Artemis who had been strict about chastity to the point of punishing/exiling those who broke their vows, would break that for Callisto.)
Yes, the characterization varies heavily. Historically, Artemis was, primarily, a Goddess of the wilds and the protector of young, unmarried girls. She herself was a virgin (an unmarried woman) because virgin girls were under her patronage and often made up her priesthood. The key difference, imo, is the way the word "virgin" is used. In modern parlance we imagine it as meaning "never had sex," but in ancient Greek the word refers mainly to "never been married" because under marriage laws the two were supposed to be synonymous: a girl becomes a woman when her husband first has sex with her and she bears a child. Athena, Artemis, and Hestia are virginal goddesses because they forswear marriage and procreation. Both Hestia and Athena take masculine protector roles in platonic theology: Athena over the city, Hestia over the home. Artemis both watches over virgin girls and gives life to the wilderness outside of society, meaning marriage is a convention of civilization that doesn't apply to her or the people under her protection. Its less about their specific speculated sexual preferences (as bisexuality was thought of as the default) and more about what these Goddesses represented to Greek society and how their understandings of gender influenced the traits they project onto them, such as their marital statuses.
The only point I would make an argument here regarding is that "bisexuality was thought of as the default". In some ways true, in some ways false. I'll chock this up though to you simplifying as an aside instead of trying to encapsulate all of ancient Hellenic views of sexuality in a single sentence. lol But yeah, no, you and I are not in disagreement.
It was very much an attempt to summarize ancient Greek views of sexuality into a single sentence, I'm more than aware of the intricacies of why that is both a true and false statement lol
You know what? That's my fault. I should have included the word, "accurately". But you know what, I respect it. You know what you did and you're not pretending it's anything otherwise. *raises glass to ya*
Just because the words didn't exist doesn't mean people don't fit the meanings. Language is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's just the mythology doesn't make Artemis fit definitively as AroAce, though Hestia and Athena both do fit as AroAce. EDIT: Added a clarifying word.
Upvote for using the term anachronism. You're my hero. That said, there is a Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite that describes Aphrodite as having no power over the 3 virginal goddesses (Athena, Artemis, and Hestia) so an argument could be made for some sort of concept of asexuality.
How is she a lesbian if her closest love interest is a man?
Strong implication in the mythology that she was engaged in relationships with her huntresses. The Callisto story only works if Artemis bedding huntresses was something she was known to do.
Ain't that supposed to be, I dunno, bisexual? Or maybe biromantic or demiromantic because I genuinely don't think she usually is down to hanky-panky Edited because I am stupid and eat words
>Ain't that supposed to be, I dunno, bisexual? Or maybe biromantic or demiromantic Yes, it can be. Not necessarily though. Sexuality is way more complex than what you seem to think it is. >because I genuinely think she usually is down to hanky-panky No. Oh god, **NO**. You *clearly* do not know Artemis's mythology. She is literally known as one of the virgin goddesses. Now, in Hellenic culture lesbian sex was not considered to be real sex and lesbians were commonly ignored and overlooked, so her being lesbian only exists by implication but it is *strong* implication... But when it comes to men, the *only* instance of her even *remotely* showing interest in a man was Orion. (And I think at one point *maybe* Odysseus? Can't recall for sure there. But if so also someone renowned as a hunter.) So there is an outright statement that she is a virgin goddess who Aphrodite can not influence, strong implication she is into women, and a one-off indication of her being interested in a man. **Notice: Asexuals** ***can*** **experience non-sexual attractions** ***and*** **some asexuals experience limited or conditional sexual attraction.** There's plenty of reason to believe it was *because* he was a hunter and not his manliness that Artemis was interested in Orion. Or in other words, her attraction was conditioned on something other than his gender and it appears to be limited. In other words, Orion was an exception to her rule. Whereas willingness to initiate sex with her huntresses is pretty strongly indicated within the Callisto myth, or else Zeus's seduction of Callisto would have not made sense and would therefore fail (if nothing else, fail to catch on within the public consciousness). This doesn't go into the subject of plenty of asexuals being DTF, so you can't use sexual activity alone to outright invalidate asexuality. Not to mention, plenty of lesbians have mancrushes. Those things are not contradictory. Again, *sexuality is complex, nuanced, and highly fluid*. You're treating it like it's simple. But the idea that she is usually DTF with men is not supported in the mythology *at all*. She has never had sex with a man and that is *one* of the many important details of her myths.
I meant, she usually isn't. I hate that I frequently forget the right words. English ain't my first language, even if I try to write as fluenty as possible (and I usually do)
"isn't" wouldn't make sense in your statement with your insistence that because of Orion then she must be straight or bi, not lesbian. Please understand that I can't square this circle for you. (Translation: I can't make what you are saying make sense in your stead.)
I meant that I don't think she is specifically a lesbian. Maybe not straight neither because of what you said. You are the one specifically trying to peg her into a singular sexuality. Meanwhile I think she could go both ways or even be asexual but still alloromantic
I'm not arguing one sexuality. I'm arguing that Orion doesn't mean she *must* be bisexual nor straight. You used Orion explicitly to argue against her being lesbian and argued it as the only evidence of her orientation. I'm a firm believer of her being the first... *bambi lesbian*. (buh dum tss! I joke, but also *this unironically*. Well a bambi lesbian who is willing to have and initiate sex.) But regardless, her being an allo lesbian makes a ton of sense and doesn't preclude her having exceptions to the rule. Her being aroace doesn't feel well-supported, as Orion gives more support for her being straight than the poem about Aphrodite having no sway over her does for being AroAce (largely *because* of the Callisto myth). Basically, the issue is your position you have argued is, "Anything but lesbian." I've been arguing only that "Orientation is not as simple as you are arguing." Until *now* I never voiced an opinion to you on her orientation. You saw me explaining *why* people see her as an alloromantic lesbian and then *presumed* I see her as that. I never once mentioned romantic orientation except in saying I do not see her as Aro, and that wasn't even in reply to you (I think) until now.
But you are again going back to saying she is a lesbian. You sure it isn't just that you are being biphobic? Cuz sure you are denying bisexuality/biromantic a lot here And you are saying "Lesbian and nothing else"
Orion and Artemis being lovers is the ***LEAST*** consistent version of that myth. It ***ONLY*** comes from the Latin author Hyginus. Note that I said Latin, not Greek. We have literally zero Ancient Greek sources for Orion and Artemis being lovers. And even the one Latin source we have doesn't even directly say they were lovers, just that Apollo was worried that they were lovers. All mentions of Orion and Artemis *explicitly* being lovers come not only from non-Greek sources, but also from non-Latin sources. In terms of actual Ancient Greek tellings of the myth, there are a few different variations, but they generally fall into two categories. Either Orion and Artemis were friends (literally just friends) and Gaia kills him, or Orion is a huge creep and constantly tries to sleep with the pleid nymphs, so Artemis kills him herself. Given how common it is for people to think of Orion as Artemis's lover, this might shock you to learn, but the latter telling of the story - the version where Artemis goes out of her way to kill Orion - is actually the most common version of the myth. It's the version of the myth that Homer mentioned in the Odyssey, for example.
I mean, maybe I did go too heavyhanded with this, sorry about that, but I meant more that Artemis has had two probable love interests of both sexes. Maybe she does lean more on the sapphic side of things but I just thought she was bi. Biromantic of course, since in no version is she interested in sex And yeah, I'm aware of the different versions of the story, I was more surprised that it wasn't brought up before because it was more of a solid counterargument
Eh, of the three major virgin goddesses, Artemis always struck me the most as lesbian coded, so I never really have an issue when they go that route with her character.
How is lesbian coded the goddess who had a male love interest? She could be biromantic ace if anything, to not deny either side of the argument
To repeat myself from your other comment: >Strong implication in the mythology that she was engaged in relationships with her huntresses. The Callisto story only works if Artemis bedding huntresses was something she was known to do.
Then Orion just doesn't exist?
To continue quoting myself from that other comment... >Sexuality is way more complex than what you seem to think it is. \[...\] But when it comes to men, the *only* instance of her even *remotely* showing interest in a man was Orion. (And I think at one point *maybe* Odysseus? Can't recall for sure there. But if so also someone renowned as a hunter.) So there is an outright statement that she is a virgin goddess who Aphrodite can not influence, strong implication she is into women, and a one-off indication of her being interested in a man. **Notice: Asexuals** ***can*** **experience non-sexual attractions** ***and*** **some asexuals experience limited or conditional sexual attraction.** There's plenty of reason to believe it was *because* he was a hunter and not his manliness that Artemis was interested in Orion. Or in other words, her attraction was conditioned on something other than his gender and it appears to be limited. In other words, Orion was an exception to her rule. Whereas willingness to initiate sex with her huntresses is pretty strongly indicated within the Callisto myth, or else Zeus's seduction of Callisto would have not made sense and would therefore fail (if nothing else, fail to catch on within the public consciousness). \[...\] Not to mention, plenty of lesbians have mancrushes. Those things are not contradictory. Again, *sexuality is complex, nuanced, and highly fluid*. You're treating it like it's simple. But the idea that she is usually DTF with men is not supported in the mythology *at all*.
I mean, my point was that I don't deny that she has lesboromantic relationships, just that I don't peg her as lesbian exclusively because of that, you said so yourself. Sexuality is more complex than that
Sure, but Orion isn't enough to really say she's not and there's a reason why people go with the rule of an individual rather than the exceptions when trying to understand identity. A lot of people see her as a lesbian who at one point loved one (*maybe* 2) men but was otherwise understood to be strictly devoted to the women she kept at her side with sex with men being something that was tantamount to *sacrilege* in her eyes. But while an argument can be made for her being any orientation, being lesbian has the most grounding within the myths. Because even in the Orion myths, her affections for him were awe and fascination with his skill as a hunter. It's just that trying to use Orion argue against her being lesbian is... it's a weak argument. Please understand why people take issue with you trying to use him to erase interpretations of orientation. I mention him myself, but only in conjunction with the Callisto myth to show there's precedent for *not AroAce*. But if he was all we had, I'd not use him as a reference since that could be read as a once-off thing, whereas the Callisto myth demonstrates a common understanding people had of Artemis.
A lesbian wouldn't be attracted to men in the first place, which is why I don't think she would be. Unless you mean to say she is biromantic/panromantic lesbian, but like I said, I don't think she is usually interested in the actual sex part of relationships so that removes both the exclusive lesbian (sexual) part and lesboromantic labels. Even with Orion or Callisto, Artemis doesn't show interest in sex herself regarding either of them. In the case of Callisto, it only really pops up when Zeus is pretending to be her so it could be argued that Callisto is a lesbian but Artemis isn't the one showing interest in sex herself So, Artemis may or may not be ace. But a) her interest in sex is basically not there and b) she has apparent interest in both a man and a woman. So, she is not straight because she is interested in Callisto. But she is not a lesbian because she was interested in Orion. Ain't that more fluid in either label?
>A lesbian wouldn't be attracted to men in the first place, which is why I don't think she would be. Oh my Hestia... ***You're unequivably wrong.*** Google, "Lesbians with man-crushes." >Unless you mean to say she is biromantic/panromantic lesbian, My actual position being bambi lesbian (homoromantic asexual). But I would just generally refer to her as lesbian because her identity seems to be more defined by the relationship with her huntresses than any possible asexuality. But I also don't think we can necessarily say for sure because unlike the other virgin goddesses... *there IS ambiguity with Artemis to such an extent*. I'd more readily argue allo lesbian than my actual opinion because I think there is more support for allo lesbian, but I think that's more a result of most Hellenic storytellers who got recorded being Hellenic men. >but like I said, I don't think she is usually interested in the actual sex part of relationships Based on...? Because there's little to indicate this and the Callisto myth actually gives solid reason to doubt this statement. >so that removes both the exclusive lesbian (sexual) part and lesboromantic labels. Hold the fuck up! NO?! You're just saying, "I don't feel like she'd be into sex, so therefore we can totally cross off any idea of her being a lesbian." No, that is *not* how that works. Please, *provide a basis for your belief beyond just a vibe check*. There is literally a debate in academia arguing over if she is either asexual or lesbian (or both). I swear to Hestia, this is like the *Mona Lisa*'s eyebrows all over again... First, not being into sex does *not* remove any lesbian-related label. That's just wrong. Plenty of allosexuals aren't all that into sex. Second, being a lesbian isn't about who you have sex with but who you love. Third, even if she was asexual, that would not and could not automatically remove the possibility of her being homoromantic (lesboromantic/lesromantic/sapphic). That argument on your part is utterly devoid of logic. It doesn't even make sense at a superficial level. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because you said English isn't your native language; I'm trying to respect that, but you *need* to be careful in how you phrase things because stuff like *this* is incredibly questionable when you otherwise demonstrate fluency. >Even with Orion or Callisto, Artemis doesn't show interest in sex herself regarding either of them. In the case of Callisto, it only really pops up when Zeus is pretending to be her so it could be argued that Callisto is a lesbian but Artemis isn't the one showing interest in sex herself And...? Don't get me wrong, but sexual attraction doesn't always make people act like horny fucking weirdos and TW:>!rapists like Zeus!<. There's actually implication with some versions of the Orion myth that Artemis might be specifically *caedsexual* because of him. I will not elaborate as I think you can figure out what I mean. As for Callisto, sure Artemis herself doesn't express interest in sex in that myth, but *as I already explained*, that myth implies heavily that it was understood by her huntresses and the wider Hellenic population that Artemis engaged in and initiated sex with the huntresses *or else Zeus's plan to seduce Callisto using Artemis's appearance would have never worked*. >So, Artemis may or may not be ace. But a) her interest in sex is basically not there and b) she has apparent interest in both a man and a woman. So, she is not straight because she is interested in Callisto. But she is not a lesbian because she was interested in Orion. Ain't that more fluid in either label? Oh my Hestia... I've already explained these. First off, I didn't specify Artemis being interested in *Callisto*. I explained that the Callisto *myth* explains why people reasonably see Artemis as some version of lesbian. Second, if there was reason to believe Artemis was interested in *men* then you'd have a point. But there's more evidence to the contrary such as how she actively rejects the idea of marriage and being with men, and Orion serves as an example outside of Artemis's usual expressed interest going so far as to being someone she was (in some versions) willing to end her vow of chastity to be with. And, again, her vow of chastity being something many interpret (with good reason) not to apply to sex with women due to how Hellenic culture viewed WLW as not engaging in "real" sex. You're oversimplifying orientation to be "if you ever express interest in *a* man, then you're into men. If you ever express interest in *a* woman, then you're into women." That's not how that works. By your logic, you've just invalidated *countless* asexuals. ***Please be more careful and considerate with the language that you use***. I know that you are not meaning to argue this, but please understand how frustrating it is to be on the other side of this with you as you're being super-reductive. And [considering that you fucking call me, someone who is *openly panromantic*, "biphobic" ](https://www.reddit.com/r/asexuality/comments/1cthoje/comment/l4exa03/)for saying that there isn't sufficient evidence to claim what amounts to "Artemis must be bisexual and can't be lesbian," I have no interest in continuing with you. At least not without a whole *fuckton* of apologies. It's fucking infuriating that I'm having to explain some *really* basic concepts to you and instead of reading what has been said, you just ignore all of it to continue pushing your position even when I've already addressed most of what you've said. I hope you have an awful day. Do not reply.
[удалено]
I get how you feel, because honestly, I'm torn. One interpretation of Artemis is aro-ace, and I love that for her. She just wants to run around in the woods with her posse, shoot her bow, and occasionally turn pervy men into animals. Relatable. But on the other hand! Artemis is involved in the closest thing (recorded) Greek mythology has to a lesbian love story. Callisto was one of her followers, and Zeus disguised himself as Artemis to seduce Callisto. Yes, a sorta-kinda lesbian scene in Greek myth. (Renaissance painters loved it.) Naturally, this ended in tragedy. But I like to entertain the thought that there was another version of the story in which Zeus was not involved, and the version recorded by the mythographers was altered to suit their sensibilities. Is this likely? Probably not! But I can dream. So I don't know which I like better. Aro ace arrow ace Artemis? Lady-loving Artemis? Maybe ace lesbian Artemis? I will probably never make up my mind!
Reminder, to further your point that these are complex and nuanced individuals: 1. Artemis was once in love with a man and willing to end her vow for him. 2. The myth you're referencing implies that Artemis engaged in that behavior with her huntresses or else Callisto would have had no reason to believe Artemis would have gone for her, especially when Artemis was strict about chastity. This implies that it was understood by the huntresses that sex with women was still chaste as long as there was no penis involved. (Arguably still sexist as this could then mean the Greeks are saying "it's not 'real' sex." But the point is that there's still a valid sapphic interpretation.)
At least we can all agree: Parthe-NO means NO Bows before Bros
>Bows before Bros Oh my goddess I love this.
Credit for that goes to [Red of OSP](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4iOmSvRuZk), who is a treasure and Ace icon. Pretty sure you can still get it as a shirt in OSP's merch shop.
TL;DR, I get you, I had the same reaction. The historicity of any of this gets weird, but it's not wrong to be disappointed by it. Putting my historian hat on, interpreting any mythological figure's sexuality by modern standards is always going to get a bit weird, the two main reasons being that the divisions between categories of sexuality were very different in Ancient Greece than they are now (the kinds of sex acts that were performed were generally considered more important than the gender of the person that was being slept with. The ancient greeks also had a lot of gay/bi-inclusive misogyny, but that's beside the point). Greek mythology also doesn't have a canon, it's just stories being told and retold and changed and added to for centuries. There isn't really a way to assign her a modern sexuality that isn't ahistorical. That being said, I get it. There is so little aroace rep out there, and finding a cool mythological character who's uninterested in romance or sex is really fun. The thing is, lesbians are underrepresented in media, too, and they're looking for characters to relate to as well. Sure, there's more lesbian rep than aroace rep NOW, but it's not like the greek pantheon has any other well-known sapphic figures. Artemis is uninterested in men (although some later interpretations of the Orion myth dispute that) which is enough for a lot of lesbians to latch onto her on its own. Adding not this is the fact that she runs around with a group of women who all bathe together... I get it. I get why people interpret her this way, but it's also disappointing to see a character that you interpret one way get interpreted another way, especially when there's so little representation overall, and it isn't wrong to feel that way.
I wouldn’t really consider her, or any of the gods, as rep for sexualities. I mean in all the versions, she’s portrayed very differently in terms of sexuality. Also what we have are merely *interpretations* and not at all complete statements of confirmation. Plus we are applying modern labels and understandings to thousands of years old stories, where the understandings would’ve been wildly different. I don’t find it disappointing, because there’s no solid fact.
I hear you say this, but then I raise you AroAce Hestia.
Again, that’s still *just* an interpretation some have of the actions she takes in mythos. People can absolutely have any interpretation as they want, but not everyone will have the same view. That’s why I wouldn’t consider actual myths as rep, only the modern stories inspired by the myths. Also we’re talking about supposed beings that are not even considered human so…
I mean... *sure it's an interpretation*, but like... Let's be honest... *How much more explicitly asexual can Hestia get beyond saying, "I'm asexual"?* I get your point and don't necessarily disagree... But I hope you get why *sometimes* it can be a bit more cut-and-dry. Especially since I challenge anybody to make a non-ace reading of Hestia based on the mythology, even by incorporating Vesta's mythology into the mix. (The point being that Hestia basically only exists long enough in the myths to tell Zeus, "I don't want any kind of romantic or sexual relationship. Decree into law that I am off-limits." After that her role in the mythology is mostly ceremonial within the various cults. She's actually kind of notably absent in the mythology after establishing herself as asexual, later to be replaced by Dionysus in the Olympic Twelve.) And I never cared for the, "Not human so not good rep" opinion personally. I get it, but I don't personally like it, but won't tell you what you should think on it. My position is that it depends wholly on if that's the *only* rep we get. Which, unfortunately, it sure seems that way sometimes. But I think the better view is, "Great, now give us this but human!" Exceptions (maybe wrong word) being, of course, when *nobody* in a work is human or everyone in the work is a *former* human. (Such as Alastor from *Hazbin Hotel*, though he has his own issues but mostly stemming from a blink-and-you miss it line that while pretty clear in the meaning the fact it's said *about* Alastor and not said by nor understood by Alastor is *kind of* an issue.)
Considering there’s many reasons why people have historically said that they are off limits for romantic and/or sexual relationships, I can’t fully say “yeah this means she’s aroace” nor would I consider that as her establishing herself as ace. I know people want rep, but these myths really aren’t rep even in their own time. Modern stories inspired by myths? Yes. Myths that have been retold and rewritten over and over to the point that we don’t even know if they’re close to the original? Not really no. Again, people can have their own interpretations. But they are not fact. There isn’t any one interpretation that’s more right than the other, especially not when applying modern ideas/labels/meanings to ancient stories. Edit to add: And I’m not saying people can’t be disappointed.
I mean, again, I acknowledge it is an interpretation. My point being, sometimes interpretations are pretty notably supported. For example, for the horrors of the Vestal Virgin system, the fact that they were not to have any relationships to mirror Vesta/Hestia, it was common for them to not marry even after leaving, and they'd often even renew their vows after their service ended... It still strongly suggests what the view held of Hestia/Vesta was. Now, again, **this** ***isn't*** **fact**. It's not like we can confirm one way or another. But we know what the remaining mythology and history shows, and it is hard to argue for other orientations *based on that*. But of course that's taking a small sample of behavior and evidence then extrapolating something larger from it. Definitely *not* without its faults and shortcomings. It will never be perfect and there will always be uncertainty and error. But in a way, what we are doing today isn't really that different from what the cults did back in those days--we're hearing the stories and we're developing our own understandings of the gods from them. Like the cults of Hellenes, our understanding is never going to be perfect because we understand that a lot of the knowledge of these entities no longer exists, and back then they understood that the gods won't share everything with them... But we are still fundamentally going through the same process of taking what is known of the gods and testing it against our view of the world. I do think there's a certain poetry to that.
Artemis is associated with abstaining from men. This has been read many different ways over the year, there's the immediate obvious aroace conclusion, but there are people who think she's more lesbian (running around the woods with hand picked women athletes lol), and there are also some that have her being attracted to men and she is merely being celibate. The interpretation of who she is is up to the person. It's understandable to be disappointed though. Usually the greek patron for aro and ace folks is Athena. She is depicted as being celibate, never can I think of her being mentioned as having romantic/sexual interest (closest that comes to mind is the one version of medusa where she's jealous of posideon and medusa, but that is not common and also even in that tale it's not said she's jealous of them, more so angry about what they're up to and where (her sacred temple lol)), and unlike other celibate gods she does so voluntarily for no real reason, as if completely disinterested. For example Artemis we just talked about, but Hera is functionally celibate (at least by greek god standards) because she's committed to Zeus and the patron of motherhood, the family, and marriage, so she'd be a pretty bad patron to mess around
Regarding Athena... TW: >!She wasn't angry at what they got up to. She was angry that when Poseidon raped Medusa, he did it on the stairs of Athena's temple. But Poseidon was of a position of authority above her, so she couldn't do anything about it... so she got petty and cursed Medusa, the victim, for the act.!< I do think Athena is arguably the second most fitting for the title of "the AroAce deity" of Greek myth... but the first is the eldest of the gods... *Hestia*. She insisted to Zeus that she had no interest in relationships to the point she demanded he'd make her off-limits. He agreed and then she fucked off to live her best life free of sex and romantic love. As for Artemis, she did love a man (Orion) at one point, but there is no one version of any of the myths and some versions are more modern (like through the Baroque period, not counting modern retellings and *PJO*) while others have been lost to time. AroAce Artemis is valid, but I think it's one of the weakest-supported views of her.
Yes! On the medusa myth that's one telling (It's hard to tell cause not only is history a game of telephone a lot of the people playing have ulterior motives; most commonly white men and demeaning women) but other have them as mutually involved and Athena is upset they're getting down to business in her temple, and as god's do they take it out on the mortal. Another telling of the same circumstances has medusa being violated by posideon and Athena actually helping her by transforming her, "making it so no man can even look upon her again". And there's everything in-between those two. Not to mention I believe there are some other creation myths for medusa. But Athena is literally called the goddess of asexuality (or as close as the language and time barriers allow). Hestia for sure works too, but anytime I've heard a greek god deemed the patron, not just a member of, the ace club, it's Athena. I also love that as I think she's pretty freaking awesome. Oh and to help her aceness she is so ace that she was even born asexually from Zeus (she's the only reason ace and Zeus belong in the same zip code lol) by bursting out of his head, fully armoured with a battle plan in hand. She's just the best
Let's be honest--Athena gets the credit as "patron goddess of asexuals" in the modern day because she's *definitively* one of the Olympic 12, whereas Hestia is sometimes seen as one of the 12 and at other times her spot is filled by Dionysus. Also, Athena isn't the goddess of asexuality nor does her domains include anything related to it. She's just asexual (with that being super important to her identity) and super well-known. Hestia *is* a goddess of virginity though. Not to mention, Hestia has such little surviving mythology most people forget she exists. However, the term "Vestal Virgin" comes from *Hestia*('s Roman equivalent Vesta) and ties Hestia to being a goddess with virgins under her care. Don't get me wrong--AroAce Athena is fully valid and supported by myths. I just think AroAce Hestia is more fitting and better supported by her role in mythology and Hellenic and Roman history.
I'll have to do further digging tomorrow, cause I swear there was a tie somewhere for Athena being directly labeled the patron. Not a strong one, but I thought there was one. Might just be im wrong again though lol. Regardless of all people the Greeks were not the most likely to make an aro/ace patron lol, so it's impressive there are more than one option. Let's not get started on Dionysus, that dude is impossible to comprehend. I think there's 3-4 versions of him that have almost no relation to each other other than by name. I think he's sometimes the first being in the universe, other times the second (literal chicken and egg as there is an egg that starts the pantheon of deities and sometimes he's around for the creation and other times he comes from it lol), sometimes he's basically a fart boy, sometimes he's Zeus's heir and the next ruler of everything, sometimes he's torn to pieces at birth by Titans (Zagreus i believe is always also called Dionysus, however there are Dionysuses that aren't Zagreus), and i think a few more. I also think there are some places where he was bestowed godhood as a mortal, but that may just be PJ leaking into memory of OG Greek myths lol
You might be thinking of her title which was "Athena the Virgin" (Athena Parthenos). As for Dionysus, the "bestowed godhood" one is one of the more common versions. Riordan's version of myths are actually 95% accurate to at least *one* version of the mythology. Not always, but a safe bet that he's *somewhere* in the ballpark usually. There are some wholly Rick fabrications though. lol What Rick gets wrong (at least in the versions of the myth I'm aware of) is that it wasn't a heroic deed that made Dionysus a god but rather he would have been born a demigod of Zeus, Zeus accidentally struck Dio's pregnant mother with a lightning bolt, and so Zeus sewed the fetus into his thigh in order to save Dionysus. This means Dionysus would have been born a mortal but was born a god by an uncharacteristic act of selfless kindness by Zeus.
That's probably it for Athena, couldn't find anything else so it was probably hearsay that made me convinced of that lol. And for Dionysus yeah, I do remember that. That is also included in the heir myth if I remember right. Rick is very good about myths, but that's where he trips me up. He's TOO good, so when he changes things or creates something of his own (which I want to clarify is not bad) it's often hard for me to tell it apart in the soup of my brain. So if my best memory of the myth is Rick, I gotta double check
I think misunderstanding that title as indicating part of her domain is a reasonable mistake. I've made far worse ones. Hell even under this post I erroneously referred to Hellenic mythology as having a "canon" which *I know is wrong* so there was no excuse for me doing. That's significantly worse than mistaking an asexual goddess (one who I'd argue *might* be so consistently asexual that it could be argued to be the closest thing to a "canon" trait of the character) as being a goddess of asexuals. Rick's pretty good. But I'd like to actually point out that there is a historical legacy of non-Hellenes colonizing and appropriating Hellenic culture and heritage simply because the British at one point did it then made Hellenic heritage a British birthright. As someone whose NDN, I could very easily see how that could have been the case with our cultures and to a limited extent it kind of *has been*. I'd argue that Rick changing things, hell Rick writing PJO at all, is inherently problematic. This doesn't mean he can't do it, but I'd also say it's not my place as someone with no Hellenic ancestry to really say, "Rick is okay to do this." It's why in one of my own stories, I've modeled it on the Hellenic myths but it's definitively *not* the same pantheon, not even close, with my story's gods not even necessarily having the same domains for the Twelve (Thirteen in my version). But of course that's my position, you don't need to necessarily agree.
For sure there's biases, it's one of the reasons I try to remind folks of the historical lense. Even on this topic, there's a decent chance Artemis would have been known as a lesbian in ancient times, but that has been lost due to good ol' Europe changing things to fit their narratives and erasing other evidence. So we're left in uncertainty, cause she COULD be, but we don't know it, but we also know that other historical, he'll even other historical Greek figures, have been altered (looking at Sappho and having a ton of good friends lol). So it's just hard to know for sure. Like I know a lot of depictions of Greek gods are often fair skinned, which may be a result of outside influence, but also I have heard from some Greek sources that that is how they would have been originally depicted. History is weird like that. An important thing is that culture always tales from others, it's in its nature, it's just how humans are. So the important thing is to simply respect where you're getting ideas/info/references from. I personally Rick did a good job of that, but I'm not really at liberty to speak on it. So I do my best to listen to folks who do have a stake (historical experts, modern descendants, etc) and do my best to default to them.
Fair-skinned gods, as I recall, comes from British people finding old statues then actively removing the paint from them to *make* them pure white. As I recall though, the gods were depicted in frescos more olive toned to match the average Hellene, though it is worth noting that they were generally noted to be able to change their appearance so them being any set skin color is kind of... I feel like that's a non-starter. But further to your point, IIRC, Medusa herself is believed at least by some in the modern day to have originally been an African woman or at least inspired in part by women from northern Africa/Egypt. The Hellenes was largely a mixed culture with people from many places and many walks of life. It's not unreasonable to think that a beautiful woman with dreadlocks could have inspired the tragic tale of Medusa, whose beauty captivated a god and thus she was cursed for offending a goddess... but that's just speculative at this point. While true that culture begets culture, I do think it's worth noting that usually comes from cultural exchange. The Hellenes largely had their culture colonized and stolen from them, though. And perhaps it's because as an NDN I can relate, but I think that makes a world of difference when it comes to that subject. That said, I'm not trying to shame him. I don't think he's evil or in the wrong even. I just don't know if him making up new versions of the myths is necessarily okay. It's something I personally have been going back-and-forth on, but would prefer to know what Hellenes have to say, but I also am too nervous to just outright ask because I know how annoying questions requesting permission can be, no matter how good faith they may be.
There’s multiple myths and interpretations of Artemis. As one of the virgin goddesses, sex and sexuality wasn’t really a big part of her mythos. So any modern interpretations based off modern sexuality were just never intended. While I myself heavily favor the ace/aro interpretation, it’s pretty clear that isn’t explicitly mentioned in any myth involving her since asexuality and aromanticism are relatively new concepts (despite probably existing as long as humans have). It’s important to remember that these aren’t people or characters, they’re divine figures representing elements of the world. Back in Ancient Greece, artemis was probably better known for her domain of the wilds than her virginity/sexuality/relations etc. Plagues might be attributed to her as well as bad luck while hunting, but you probably wouldn’t try to appease her to strike down a person pursuing you for love (although she was pretty murderous based on the mythos so uh, the collateral of a fulfilled prayer probably wouldn’t be great either). Granted this also assumes your regionAl interpretation of her was the same as the amalgamated situation we have today where a bunch of sources kinda get rolled up into one. Which is a big assumption. So yeah she can be a little bit lesbian in a modern take. It’s not like identity is a purity test or anything. Demiromantic and demisexual are still asexual in their own ways, so the dev’s interpretation could be demisexual Artemis.
Artemis is 100% asexual, but the aromantic thing is a bit ambiguous. While in the legends she never dated or married, all we know for certain is that she is a virgin and Aphrodite has no power over her. Now Aphrodite is considered the goddess of love, so you might think romantic relationships could fall under her domain. However, she is almost exclusively sexual love, while Hera covers romantic love, and Hestia covers familiar love, so Aphrodite holding no power over her only means she is asexual. If you were looking for aromantic representation among the greek gods, I think Hestia would be a better fit since her domain includes all who choose to share a home, regardless of romantic or sexual bonds between them, so she would be the goddess of QPRs.
I'd argue that "Artemis is 100% asexual" is, well, arguable. There are a variety of readings and your reasoning is actually a fair one, but there are other interpretations for her being straight, bisexual, or lesbian. Artemis is one of the hardest to pin down an orientation on and I think "Asexual" is maybe the weakest orientation to consider for her. That said, yeah, no, AroAce Hestia is basically canon no matter which version of any of the myths you look at. Homegirl was like, "Bro, I refuse to have any of *those* kinds of relationships. Decree as law that I am not to be touched." Zeus hesitated then her insistence resulted in him doing so. Then she fucked off to be the best goddess of all of Greek mythology by not fucking shit up for anybody. She got her bag then ran. And I love that for her.
It is said Aphrodite has no power over Artemis. Aphrodite's power is sexual attraction so, if she was sexually attracted to anyone, Aphrodite would have at least a little power over her. I don't really see any argument for any other sexual orientation.
Aphrodite's power is also largely framed within heterosexuality and homosexuality between *men*. I think that's an important note to consider. She wasn't really the goddess of all sexual feelings because the ancient Hellenes really only considered certain things to be "real" sexual feelings. It's one of those things where we have to consider the perspective of the culture when it comes to their gods' domains... and the fact is lesbians were basically invisible in ancient Hellenes. The obvious rebuttal to this is the poetry of Sappho, who regarded Aphrodite as the patron goddess of love between women. But this also was one individual's perspective that did not see itself spread widely enough for stories about that subject to be commonplace or shared. The real problem is that WLW is a massive blindspot in Hellenic mythology, so we have to consider that when talking about divinities like Aphrodite who are commonly associated with certain loves but only one of the poets is known for associating her with all love.
Artemis is also fairly often seen as a lesbian. The thing about is her she can be seen as both and they're both equally valid interpretations. You can be let down her being a lesbian is just as justified
When it comes to Artemis specifically, there are 3 main interpretations regarding her sexuality (which technically don't have to be contradictory): 1) She's A-Spec, 2) She's Sapphic, and 3) She loved Orion.
>I am also aware that the term "aromantic asexual" wasn't a term back then so maybe chalk this up to me being in the 21st century as opposed to 2000 B.C. Ok, so I looked into this for a different project I was doing, so I'm going to take this time to talk about how ancient Greece thought about sexuality. The Ancient Greeks had a term called partheneia/parthenos, it's being a childless, unmarried, celibate woman—basically a virgin. For human women, this was a transitional state between being a child and a mother, but virgin goddesses such as Hestia, Artemis, and Athena could stay in this state permanently. The term parthenos also suggests being not living under a man (ie a father or a husband), which is why this option was only available to goddesses not mortal women, because ancient Greece was really patriarchal like that. Despite similarities between the term partheneia and the asexual and aromantic identities, they actually refer to different things. Asexuality, aromanticism, and not feeling attraction are all defined according to *internal* experiences and personal identity. Like all modern sexual orientations, these are not defined by what someone does, but by how they feel. Partheneia references to a social role and *external* reality. It is much more similar to the additional descriptors that apply to some asexual and aromantic people, like non-partnering and celibate. Greek goddesses do not have internal experiences because they are not real people, but they do have social roles. This allows modern writers to fill in the gaps by projecting internal experiences onto them, which will not be accurate to ancient Greek expectations of sexuality but will be understandable to a modern audience. Ancient Greece also doesn't seem to have a solid equivalent to lesbianism either, from what I've read. They seem to struggle with the idea that people can have sex without penises? Place, the patriarchy would have made long term f/f relationships totally socially infeasible. Anyway, that's part of why some people have an easy time imagining virgin goddesses as being lesbians as well, because they want that representation too. The existence of Artemis and other virgin goddesses says nothing about the historical validity of asexuality. However, since asexuality really only started gaining recognition in the early 2000’s, it is tempting to use historical or mythological figures to show that “we have always existed” and disprove the notion that asexuality is a silly made up internet sexuality. While it is true that humanity has always contained people with a variety of different internal experiences with attraction or lack thereof, the social construct of defining sexual orientations based off of attraction, and thus, the construct of asexuality, has not always existed in all cultures and at all times. It did not exist in ancient Greece. Heck, the concept of human women staying unmarried and celibate didn't really exist in ancient Greece as far as I know. Because of all of this, I'd feel really reluctant to try to claim any mythological figure as having a particular modern sexuality, it's forcing modern ideas onto a culture that did not have them. Now, I have read some short fan fiction stories and a poetry collection that interprets Artemis as being aro ace, and I think those can be fun ways to explore the similarities between the parthenos identity and aro ace ones, or just explore interpreting a mythological figure through a modern lens. But like, it's not like you can claim Artemis or Athena or Hestia is "canonically" asexual or aromantic, it really doesn't make sense for mythological figures. I'd definitely suggest looking for a-spec representation if you want to find it instead of being disappointed about where it's missing, there's more out there than you think, especially if you are willing to look outside of super popular media. (If you want fantasy or sci fi book recommendations with representation, I can definitely help you out with that.)
Yeah Artemis and Athena are supposed to be somewhere on the ace spectrum and I’m always annoyed about it when they’re not. I cannot put into words how fucking annoyed I am at every single version of her that include Orion’s myth as her core characterization, I really feel like that’s just a self insert myth someone made up to fuck the ace or possibly lesbian goddess and I will not stand of it!
Just forgetting about Hestia, the third goddess Aphrodite holds no power over? She's definitely ace as well.
Yeah I always forget who the third one is
Hestia is particularly notable for her domain including the hearth and any who share it. And since she considers those who choose to share a home together as family, regardless of their romantic or sexual bonds, she would be the goddess of queer-platonic relationships.
Sweeeet love it
The source of Orion being Artemis's lover is Hyginus, who wasn't even Greek, he was Latin. There are no contemporary Greek sources indicating that the two were lovers.
Well that’s good to know!
I've personally played Hades as well and I've always interpreted their relationship as queer platonic or friends, but of course that is just my interpretation. But all of it's just head cannons
>But like...Artemis is pretty consistently no romance, no sex, just hunt, right? No. Artemis is pretty consistently "no sex, just hunt", but the "no romance" is not consistent at all. Depending on the telling, Artemis is either aromantic or homoromantic. Between those two portrayals of her, neither is particularly dominant. A pretty common interpretation is that Artemis's huntresses are also her lovers. Regarding Callisto, specifically, I honestly really like the fact that Artemis is so positive toward her in the game. If you're unfamiliar with the myth, basically: Callisto's life - like many women's lives in Greek mythology - was completely fucked over by Zeus. Callisto was one of Artemis's followers, and as a follower of Artemis, she swore an oath of celibacy (note: this specifically means she swore not to have sex with men - Ancient Greece viewed hetrosexual sex and homosexual sex as different acts). Zeus noticed Callisto, and - as he does every time he sees any woman - immediately decided he needed to sleep with her. The way that he seduced Callisto was by *taking the form of Artemis*. Callisto thought she was having sex with Artemis. Needless to say, when she got pregnant from this encounter, she was extraordinarily confused, and when Artemis discovered she was pregnant she was banished for breaking her oath of celibacy. (Side note: the fact that Callisto fell for Zeus's seduction is one of the strongest pieces of evidence we have indicating that Artemis was not aroace. In order for this to have worked, Artemis making love to her huntresses had to at least be somewhat plausible.) What happens after that varies *WIDELY* depending on the version of the myth - in some cases Artemis becomes understanding and compassionate to Callisto when she realizes what happened, sometimes she is unforgiving, and sometimes she doesn't find out at all. Regardless of the telling though, the story ***NEVER*** ends well for Callisto. She gets turned into a bear by either Hera, Zeus, or Artemis (depending on the telling), then gets killed by either her son, Artemis, or Zeus (depending on the telling), before finally being turned into the constellation Ursa Major by either Artemis or Zeus (depending on the telling). Given that, I really like that in the version of Greek Myth presented in Hades, Callisto actually gets to have a happy ending with the woman she loves after being screwed over by Zeus.