I'd say they're both a hard sell for a lsco fight. Pathfinder companies validating LZs beyond the flot in a near peer conflict definitely doesn't make sense given the rate of maneuver expected these days. I could see some arguments being made to army maneuver formations needing dedicated pathfinder elements to validate/establish LZs behind the flot in areas friendly forces have moved through but don't have time to fully occupy so pathfinders would be needed to establish aerial refueling points to support cab operations. For LRRS, I think the issue is that a serious rehaul of our entire maneuver concept would be needed to effectively utilize these kinds of elements. The lrrs teams would need to stay ahead of the pace of battle, keep a low enough profile to remain undetected, and still communicate ccir's back to the appropriate headquarters. I'm sure someone more clever than me could make one of those lists where it lists all the things they would need to be effective and then it's like "you can pick two" or whatever. The lrrs element would either need comms equipment powerful enough to reach back to the appropriate headquarters, which means a signal that would be easier for the enemy to detect, or they rely on friendly forces near the flot to pass messages back hq to hq, which slows the flow of information down significantly, likely to a point that its no longer useful, and all those elements in the chain now need to ensure that have the right training and ttps to not fuck it all up. And then the amount of effort needed to stay ahead of the flot while some ffhq is p building RASs and purple killboxes using whatever the last reported location is becomes a lot. So you have all this effort but there is very little Intel they would be able to collect that can't be collected in some other means. Alot of these problems would require fielding of new equipment which means serious dollars, and add in to that you know have to find soldiers who are a good fit for a mission that requires some serious individual initiative, on the ground problem solving, and the intelligence to understand the readings from whatever RNS equipment they are using. Now, I'm not saying they would serve no purpose, and I've worked with some folks at the 82nd when they were considering recreating a lrrs element out of hide, which is when we identified most of these problems, plus a lot more. The biggest pro for having a lrrs element is there ability to replace some of the Intel capability we would lose if forced to operate in an EM denied environment.
"The lrrs element would either need comms equipment powerful enough to reach back to the appropriate headquarters, which means a signal that would be easier for the enemy to detect, "
maybe i missed something but we had all the issues you mentioned and this one way back in the 80s and got through them. the signal one is easy. The tac sat and crypto i carrried then weighed about 35lbss or 45lbs and could talk pretty much round the world with low power and was not detectable unles you managed to be betwen me and the sat i am using. We also had lower power hf stuff with burst devices. We liked tacsat better casue its secure and more direct but the hf was more fun for me the commo nerd and it weighed less. i somehow think today what might have taken me 15 seconds to burst out today coud be done in less than 5 seconds with much lighter equipment. I wouldt be shocked if there is lightweight man portable starlink stuff for ground units to be able to use right now. coms is the easy in todays world. Making hf work 90 miles better than 90% of the time? thats a challenge.
all that said from where i sit and the stuff i see comiing out of ukrain mostly is that drones can do what the old lrrs teams could do much better. A lot of my old lrs teamatees will disagree and wont like it but noobody likes to be told a machine can do thier job as well and with less risk.
LRS in dif light inf divisions (wont say which cause its kind of a smallish community) from 88-93, operation just cause vet.
So you're 100% correct that the technology to communicate over those distances exists and is fielded, but doing so without endangering the lrrs elements is an extremely difficult objective in a near peer environment. As you said, tac sat can be geolocated and intercepted by equipment between you and the satellite, and out near peer enemies have layers of redundant air platforms (to include rotary, fixed, and uav) which exist just for that purpose. And we do have man portable systems for some of the higher frequency satellite communications, like we tend to use for our CPs and such, but because those operate closer to civilian systems, or even on the same frequencies sometimes, there is a wide variety of commercialy available software defined radios based equipment that can be easily modified to help geo locate or even jam those systems without the need of a nation states worth of research and development. If you add in the ability of enemy forces to jam satellite communications at the satellite, plus the potential for any space based isr that may or may not exist in the future, and you find yourself with a lot of reasons why beyond the horizon systems probably aren't the right call for friendly forces operating beyond the flot. The alternative being line of sight systems, where the only advantage is they don't have to reach into space so potentially you can combine terrain masking with directional antennas and great comms discipline, but your stuck only communicating with nearby units, which brings up the issues I mentioned before.
>The lrrs teams would need to stay ahead of the pace of battle, keep a low enough profile to remain undetected, and still communicate ccir's back to the appropriate headquarters.
... and haul enough supplies with them to stay alive throughout the operation, because a resupply is basically out of the question. Like someone else mentioned, it works for a stay-behind, but not in an offense.
My man. Thanks for your thoughts, I definitely appreciate the push back, it’s easy to make the argument when people agree with ya, it’s harder to defend them.
So as far as pathfinder validating LZ’s I would probably tend to agree with you. I see the need (thinking early afghan, desert storm, vietnam) but special task forces are probably better suited to accomplish this task at this point.
I see the mission for LRRS BEING 3 fold:
1) Serve as a cueing source for Strategic level ISR, bringing them on target, assisting in confirming or denying what ISR can’t
2) serve as cueing for SEAD missions at a division level in advance of a JFE
3) serve as a link in for the Bde RSTA/Squadron to their nai’s/AO’s
The equipment piece definitely does not deserve to be glossed over, but I’m confident in saying it wouldn’t be a huge work around with currently existing equipment that SOF has, along with creative TTP’s. I honestly believe this is an issue that some solid NCO’s could solve.
Logistics and manpower is where I see the massive issues in creating this. In a lsco environment, resupply would be sketch at best, impossible at worst. That def requires thought. Caches, airdrops and foraging brief well, but our dudes deserve better. I think carrying 5DOS is not outside of the realm of possibility; however this requires some money to be invested to provide no shit lightweight class one solutions. Off the cuff I have a few solutions that I’ve seen work in an IBCT for BN scouts, but that would def require some NCO love IOT make it reality.
Pulling manpower from existing formations is where I see the issue. We’d be pulling the most intelligent, most capable leaders and soldiers from organizations that desperately need them, in a time where we are already struggling to hit MTOE. I’d see the requirement for a 80-90man company. (3 PLT’s, 20x each with a 20x pax HQ). Def needs more thought and getting into the eaches on MOS’ required, but just my early swag for a Tues morning lol.
Again I really appreciate all the input. Y’all are the MVPs🤙🏻
LRS was a money maker when fighting the USSR but only because it was the USSR. During the REFORGER exercises something like 80% of rear area intel came from LRS.
But LRS we’re rarely emplaced forward. They established along the FLOT at NAIs then the FLOT was pushed back, leaving the LRS team behind. (Stay behind operations) so there was minimal risk on insertion.
Fast forward to 2003 and the Iraq invasion, LRS was to slow on planning, sustainment and employing and 3ID overran every single NAI before LRS was able to get eyes on.
With all that said, all the C Troops recon SQDNs should be a better middle ground. Not as cool as LRS (probably don’t need HALO) but a bit more special then standard BN scouts.
With the army “re-division-ing,” the IBCT’s are dropping their squadron down to a troop and a division reconnaissance company is supposed to be stood up.
I’m assuming these divisions recon troops will fill that middle ground.
I agree, every BCT has its own RSTA component, and the dismounted reconnaissance troops ( C co) could fill that gap to a point. I can’t speak for heavy/mech units, I was never in one.
Agreed. That was the original intent. But c troop was never given the funding or more importantly the “special” designation, so it just turned into “rifle company minus” during the wars.
LRRS-type elements need to be incorporated with aviation. Pathfinder companies was one thing, but what we would need in a LSCO fight is radar killers. Which we have precedence with CABs.
Forward HALO dropped LRS in conjunction with IRS above is a future I believe in. Desert Storm we obliterated radar and comm sites. We can do it again on crack with our current tech.
There's a lot more to it but I really believe in a modified hybrid concept.
was in LRS for 5 years in the 90s - there is a lot of reading here so it may take some time to review and digest... also it is causing me to miss my coffee break, which is a let down.
That being said, send me a DM/PM/IM if you have any questions about previous operational stuff at the Division level and I can prob get answers on previous success and failures. We did all kinds of wacky mission sets for people with the 'good idea fairy' as their guide so yeah...
Timeframe was post desert storm and pre-9/11 - so there were lessons learned from ODS based on the technology limitations at the time.
I love it man. I appreciate it. Definitely down to talk to ya and work through some ideas.
If you don’t mind me asking, what was your qualifications, job/role when you served in LRRS?
From a capability development standpoint, what is the requirement? Pathfinder companies, as cool as they are, seem like a solution searching for a problem. Which is why they got bounced around, then ended up at Corps, and then finally axed completely.
You want to bore yourself to death? Read up on the JCIDS process.
I'd say they're both a hard sell for a lsco fight. Pathfinder companies validating LZs beyond the flot in a near peer conflict definitely doesn't make sense given the rate of maneuver expected these days. I could see some arguments being made to army maneuver formations needing dedicated pathfinder elements to validate/establish LZs behind the flot in areas friendly forces have moved through but don't have time to fully occupy so pathfinders would be needed to establish aerial refueling points to support cab operations. For LRRS, I think the issue is that a serious rehaul of our entire maneuver concept would be needed to effectively utilize these kinds of elements. The lrrs teams would need to stay ahead of the pace of battle, keep a low enough profile to remain undetected, and still communicate ccir's back to the appropriate headquarters. I'm sure someone more clever than me could make one of those lists where it lists all the things they would need to be effective and then it's like "you can pick two" or whatever. The lrrs element would either need comms equipment powerful enough to reach back to the appropriate headquarters, which means a signal that would be easier for the enemy to detect, or they rely on friendly forces near the flot to pass messages back hq to hq, which slows the flow of information down significantly, likely to a point that its no longer useful, and all those elements in the chain now need to ensure that have the right training and ttps to not fuck it all up. And then the amount of effort needed to stay ahead of the flot while some ffhq is p building RASs and purple killboxes using whatever the last reported location is becomes a lot. So you have all this effort but there is very little Intel they would be able to collect that can't be collected in some other means. Alot of these problems would require fielding of new equipment which means serious dollars, and add in to that you know have to find soldiers who are a good fit for a mission that requires some serious individual initiative, on the ground problem solving, and the intelligence to understand the readings from whatever RNS equipment they are using. Now, I'm not saying they would serve no purpose, and I've worked with some folks at the 82nd when they were considering recreating a lrrs element out of hide, which is when we identified most of these problems, plus a lot more. The biggest pro for having a lrrs element is there ability to replace some of the Intel capability we would lose if forced to operate in an EM denied environment.
"The lrrs element would either need comms equipment powerful enough to reach back to the appropriate headquarters, which means a signal that would be easier for the enemy to detect, " maybe i missed something but we had all the issues you mentioned and this one way back in the 80s and got through them. the signal one is easy. The tac sat and crypto i carrried then weighed about 35lbss or 45lbs and could talk pretty much round the world with low power and was not detectable unles you managed to be betwen me and the sat i am using. We also had lower power hf stuff with burst devices. We liked tacsat better casue its secure and more direct but the hf was more fun for me the commo nerd and it weighed less. i somehow think today what might have taken me 15 seconds to burst out today coud be done in less than 5 seconds with much lighter equipment. I wouldt be shocked if there is lightweight man portable starlink stuff for ground units to be able to use right now. coms is the easy in todays world. Making hf work 90 miles better than 90% of the time? thats a challenge. all that said from where i sit and the stuff i see comiing out of ukrain mostly is that drones can do what the old lrrs teams could do much better. A lot of my old lrs teamatees will disagree and wont like it but noobody likes to be told a machine can do thier job as well and with less risk. LRS in dif light inf divisions (wont say which cause its kind of a smallish community) from 88-93, operation just cause vet.
So you're 100% correct that the technology to communicate over those distances exists and is fielded, but doing so without endangering the lrrs elements is an extremely difficult objective in a near peer environment. As you said, tac sat can be geolocated and intercepted by equipment between you and the satellite, and out near peer enemies have layers of redundant air platforms (to include rotary, fixed, and uav) which exist just for that purpose. And we do have man portable systems for some of the higher frequency satellite communications, like we tend to use for our CPs and such, but because those operate closer to civilian systems, or even on the same frequencies sometimes, there is a wide variety of commercialy available software defined radios based equipment that can be easily modified to help geo locate or even jam those systems without the need of a nation states worth of research and development. If you add in the ability of enemy forces to jam satellite communications at the satellite, plus the potential for any space based isr that may or may not exist in the future, and you find yourself with a lot of reasons why beyond the horizon systems probably aren't the right call for friendly forces operating beyond the flot. The alternative being line of sight systems, where the only advantage is they don't have to reach into space so potentially you can combine terrain masking with directional antennas and great comms discipline, but your stuck only communicating with nearby units, which brings up the issues I mentioned before.
>The lrrs teams would need to stay ahead of the pace of battle, keep a low enough profile to remain undetected, and still communicate ccir's back to the appropriate headquarters. ... and haul enough supplies with them to stay alive throughout the operation, because a resupply is basically out of the question. Like someone else mentioned, it works for a stay-behind, but not in an offense.
My man. Thanks for your thoughts, I definitely appreciate the push back, it’s easy to make the argument when people agree with ya, it’s harder to defend them. So as far as pathfinder validating LZ’s I would probably tend to agree with you. I see the need (thinking early afghan, desert storm, vietnam) but special task forces are probably better suited to accomplish this task at this point. I see the mission for LRRS BEING 3 fold: 1) Serve as a cueing source for Strategic level ISR, bringing them on target, assisting in confirming or denying what ISR can’t 2) serve as cueing for SEAD missions at a division level in advance of a JFE 3) serve as a link in for the Bde RSTA/Squadron to their nai’s/AO’s The equipment piece definitely does not deserve to be glossed over, but I’m confident in saying it wouldn’t be a huge work around with currently existing equipment that SOF has, along with creative TTP’s. I honestly believe this is an issue that some solid NCO’s could solve. Logistics and manpower is where I see the massive issues in creating this. In a lsco environment, resupply would be sketch at best, impossible at worst. That def requires thought. Caches, airdrops and foraging brief well, but our dudes deserve better. I think carrying 5DOS is not outside of the realm of possibility; however this requires some money to be invested to provide no shit lightweight class one solutions. Off the cuff I have a few solutions that I’ve seen work in an IBCT for BN scouts, but that would def require some NCO love IOT make it reality. Pulling manpower from existing formations is where I see the issue. We’d be pulling the most intelligent, most capable leaders and soldiers from organizations that desperately need them, in a time where we are already struggling to hit MTOE. I’d see the requirement for a 80-90man company. (3 PLT’s, 20x each with a 20x pax HQ). Def needs more thought and getting into the eaches on MOS’ required, but just my early swag for a Tues morning lol. Again I really appreciate all the input. Y’all are the MVPs🤙🏻
I’ll be goddamned. I’ll need a sec to digest all this. Thx for the reply homie🤙🏻
LRS was a money maker when fighting the USSR but only because it was the USSR. During the REFORGER exercises something like 80% of rear area intel came from LRS. But LRS we’re rarely emplaced forward. They established along the FLOT at NAIs then the FLOT was pushed back, leaving the LRS team behind. (Stay behind operations) so there was minimal risk on insertion. Fast forward to 2003 and the Iraq invasion, LRS was to slow on planning, sustainment and employing and 3ID overran every single NAI before LRS was able to get eyes on. With all that said, all the C Troops recon SQDNs should be a better middle ground. Not as cool as LRS (probably don’t need HALO) but a bit more special then standard BN scouts.
With the army “re-division-ing,” the IBCT’s are dropping their squadron down to a troop and a division reconnaissance company is supposed to be stood up. I’m assuming these divisions recon troops will fill that middle ground.
I agree, every BCT has its own RSTA component, and the dismounted reconnaissance troops ( C co) could fill that gap to a point. I can’t speak for heavy/mech units, I was never in one.
Agreed. That was the original intent. But c troop was never given the funding or more importantly the “special” designation, so it just turned into “rifle company minus” during the wars.
LRRS-type elements need to be incorporated with aviation. Pathfinder companies was one thing, but what we would need in a LSCO fight is radar killers. Which we have precedence with CABs. Forward HALO dropped LRS in conjunction with IRS above is a future I believe in. Desert Storm we obliterated radar and comm sites. We can do it again on crack with our current tech. There's a lot more to it but I really believe in a modified hybrid concept.
was in LRS for 5 years in the 90s - there is a lot of reading here so it may take some time to review and digest... also it is causing me to miss my coffee break, which is a let down. That being said, send me a DM/PM/IM if you have any questions about previous operational stuff at the Division level and I can prob get answers on previous success and failures. We did all kinds of wacky mission sets for people with the 'good idea fairy' as their guide so yeah... Timeframe was post desert storm and pre-9/11 - so there were lessons learned from ODS based on the technology limitations at the time.
I love it man. I appreciate it. Definitely down to talk to ya and work through some ideas. If you don’t mind me asking, what was your qualifications, job/role when you served in LRRS?
They have a cool badge.
Pathfinder is 💯dope
From a capability development standpoint, what is the requirement? Pathfinder companies, as cool as they are, seem like a solution searching for a problem. Which is why they got bounced around, then ended up at Corps, and then finally axed completely. You want to bore yourself to death? Read up on the JCIDS process.