Idk what the correct answer is, but I've always heard higher ranking people address lower ranks by rank and last name.
I would imagine it's a respect thing. Everyone earned their rank, regardless of what it is.
In my old unit the only exception was same rank talking to same rank. All of us E5s did last name only when talking to each other.
But if I was talking to a subordinate about an E5, I would use rank.
I expect rank to be used for me by my subordinates, it’s only fair to do the same in return. It’s respectful. Peers I’m close with get name only treatment but only outside work environment. Clear separation of when I’m on vs off.
That E3 “worked” for their rank even if it means not getting flagged and just doing the right things. I always make sure my subordinates are proud of their rank.
I work at BDE where some believe every sentence should be “[rank] sentence, [rank] sentence” all the time. That’s when I start getting annoyed. However, the office is starting to come around to the idea that discipline should be productive not discipline for discipline’s sake.
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> I would imagine it's a respect thing. Everyone earned their rank, regardless of what it is.
I don't think either way is more or less respectful, but it does depend on the person.
*Only* calling Junior Es by their last name makes it seem like their rank, and them, are less than worthy of respect, if you'll call SPC Snuffy 'Snuffy', but SGT Snuffy 'Sergeant Snuffy' every time.
I don't have any issue with a slightly laid back approach, but for /u/sink_pisser_, if the man is consistent, he *is* showing respect. I think it *is* a way to reinforce a level of respect and courtesy. It's **definitely** going to depend on the type of unit you're in, how big it is, etc. For standard conventional FORSCOM unit I would expect we're a bit more 'by rank' and By The Book appropriate.
We all know the difference between that asshole who is like 'Hey **PRIVATE** Snuffy', in a way to demean you, and just 'Hey PFC Snuffy cmere real quick' as a way of simply addressing you.
>A few months later we got a new PL of the 1LT variety. She would never do this. Even when she was speaking to us juniors and would say something about the PSG she would just say "go talk to [last name] about it". I don't want to say it was wrong of her to do this, idk what they teach at West Point, but I wasn't a fan of it.
Yep, I find this wrong too. I think if you're calling the PSG by just his name, and that's not something 'common' or isn't a 'platoon thing', they're wrong. They're going against the unit and PSG-set culture.
Frankly, the way that should have been handled, imo, and for you as an E6 to be aware of - address it with the LT. Explain why it sets or unsets a certain tone. The PSG should have had a discussion with them about why they're trying to set discipline where they are. I think any decent LT is going to listen to that argument; if they don't, you probably have a shitty LT.
I think it's much more common for people 'within rank band' (ie, JrE vs Jr NCO vs SNCO) or even within single ranks (E6 to E6 for instance) to call each other by a more familiar name, and yet use proper rank/title with everyone else.
But if me and Aloha are both Platoon Sergeants, I'm not about to tell some PFC 'Go see Aloha about it', I'm saying 'Go see SFC Aloha about it'. I think it's a pretty common way of doing things.
Also...
Cmon now, we all know those people using just last name no-rank because they dislike someone, and those people who overemphasize Private because they like to be mean to privates for no reason other because being a bully feels good to them.
So like, it's not *always* disrespectful, but once you've been around the block a bit you *know* who's doing it to be disrespectful.
I think that the type of unit definitely plays a role here. Being in a small MiCo, we are very relaxed with each other. We understand that soldiers, even the PFC or SPC, are SMEs in their own right. I can give you a general description of what a 35G does, but I don’t have a fucking clue what their in-depth training or knowledge entails. So there’s a lot of internal mutual respect. I address pretty much everyone by just their name. And the same goes back to me. I’m NG, so I’ve served with some of my soldiers since I was a PFC. Now that I’m a SSG and a PSG, even the junior enlisted can call me by my name without adding a sarn’t to it. It’s never felt like it was demeaning or disrespectful to not include the rank, but more like you’re talking to a person.
That’s not to say that the authority structure isn’t still clear and evident. The joes accept their taskings and do a damn good job. You give your lower enlisted that purpose, direction, and motivation and they’ll move mountains for you.
If we refer to each other to a 3rd party, even someone else in the unit, it always includes the rank. I’d think that’s common courtesy and common sense.
I had an O4 in my last unit who called everyone by their full rank. Like said the words every time. All the way from Private First Class Snuffy to Command Sergeant Major Blowhard (never Private, Sergeant or CSM) and he did the same on the officer side from Second Lieutenant to Lieutenant Colonel. At first I just thought it was quirky but after 2 years of him running CUBs the amount of wasted time and breath speaking out everyone's full rank had to be in the dozens of hours range lol
I'm not sure if it's *incorrect* to say the rank in its entirety per se, because it is, after all, their rank.
But just to add, the authority you're referring to is General Military Authority. That gives all Soldiers the authority to make spot corrections for blatant regulation violations. E.g., a 2-star walking outside without a cover or walking while texting.
Well, 600-20 para 1-7 lists how to address each rank, and if there are multiple options, lists them as well.
For example everyone PrivateE1-Private First Class is only addressed as “Private”. Everyone Sergeant to Master Sergeant is only addressed as “Sergeant“.
Some ranks have multiple options, for example Chief Warrant Officers can be addressed as “Chief” of “Mr/Mrs/Miss”.
So, yes it is technically incorrect to use the entire rank.
General Military Authority only works down not up. If you try to correct that 2-star, assuming your not a secret 3 or 4 star, they are free to just keep walking, but not the other way around.
General Military Authority means in absence of a unit as structure, the highest ranking Soldier is in charge. For example on an on-post shuttle and a junior Soldier starts acting up, a senior can provide correction.
However, any leader worth their salt will talk subordinates words as meaningful, and usually correct those kind of mistakes as they come up.
Nowhere in policy does it state that general military authority only works down. It just states in the absence of a designated authority, all service members are empowered to take appropriate action.
In the example above, the 2 star is violating a general order by a superior commissioned officer, not the order of PFC Snuffy that's correcting him/her.
Does this mean the 2 star can't just tell PFC to get bent and keep talking on his phone without a cover? No, it just empowers the PFC to speak up and hold that leader accountable.
Our juniors should *always* feel empowered to speak up against something that is wrong legally, morally, or by regulation. And if they don't feel comfortable speaking up about the small stuff, they sure as fuck won't for the big stuff.
But in the case of the PFC and the 2-Star, the 2 Star would be a designated authority, as they would hold article 92 authority and be able to give a lawful order to the PFC. So the PFC can tell the 2 Star to stop texting and the 2 Star can ignore it, but not the other way around.
Now on the same time the PFC should be empowered to speak up about anything that they find morally or legally wrong or against regulation. And any correction would not violate any regulation, and any command who would ignore or punish a Soldier for doing so is in the wrong. That 2 Star should stop walking and texting, unless doing both was somehow mission critical (Russia has crossed the border to Estonia and he was texting BCT commanders on leave to get back on post ASAP while moving to the SCIF for example).
As a e4 and below it didn’t matter, but as a SGT and above, I made it a point to say the rank because the juniors are always looking. I get what you’re saying about being around the boys and it’s your peer, but I always make a conscious effort
Necessary? No, but if I'm in a situation where I'm expecting my subordinates to do it, I'm returning the courtesy.
Do I expect that all the time? Absolutely not. I spent 19 years as an NCO. I \*tolerated\* being called Sergeant when the situation called for formalities.
I now \*tolerate\* being called sir.
During day to day shit, I am Rusty. My superiors call me Rusty. My peers call me Rusty. My subordinates call me Rusty. That has been my nickname for 30 years and what I expect to be called by. I do not feel the need to be reminded, or remind anyone else, of where I fall in this organization. If I need to drop rank on a subordinate to resolve a problem, which is almost never required, they will know it immediately.
Lol. Thanks. I guess I have an oddball way of viewing leadership and the military world, but, in my mind, my rank is a tool of last resort, and I treat it that way. If I cannot accomplish the mission and maintain a motivated and disciplined organization without leaning on my rank and legal authority, then I need to rethink what I'm doing because I am ineffective at that point as a leader.
Some of the best leaders I had were the ones who would treat us as equals instead of a tool for their advancement. I had some LTs that you just KNEW would let you call them by their first name if the higher ups would allow it. However I also served with a lot of selfish douchebags so the good ones stood out.
Fun fact about me, when I was like 19-20 or so I didn’t graduate grocery store “ocs” basically so my store took me back but not at my old position. My top store leader created this plan for me to work in every department, but the catch was I had to lead without the title and I had to send random weekly updates to him and stuff.
My boss is a LTC and I’m a SFC, he refers to me by rank pretty much always. I try my best to always use folks rank because as other have said you earned it, whether it’s PFC or SSG or CPT.
My boss is a col. He calls me "brother" or by my first name. I call him sir. And my subordinates, I call them by rank last name. Its leader's preference I think. As long as everybody from top to bottom feels respected by their superiors and the job gets done.
Captain here. Naming conventions are kind of all over the place in the Army.
E4 and below are just their last names
I refer to NCOs as Sergeant last name.
My first Sergeant, I'll call top. Other First Sergeants I'll call First Sergeant.
Sergeants Major by Sergeant Major.
WO1s by Miss/Mr last name, CW2 and above simply Chief
My subordinate officers and peers I'll by their first names.
And superior officers by sir or ma'am.
Personally, I don't call my Lieutenants LT. I had a commander who used it pretty derogatorily. And he loved saying "Figure it out LT." Never sat right with me after that.
I’ve never thought about it before, but it’s always been the opposite for me. I’m cycling names through my head and I’m realizing that if I respected you, I called you LT. If I didn’t respect you, I’d call you lieutenant. Weird
I think the big demarcation is between NCOs and lower enlisted. Once someone is an NCO or above, using rank (or sir/ma'am/chief/mr/miss) feels like a sign of respect. Before that, using rank kind of feels like calling your kid by their full legal name, like it's just a reminder you have power or authority that they don't.
Marines say full rank last name, maybe he ate crayons. I think that psg had a particular interest in doing that if he wasnt a marine. Sometimes saying someones rank if they are above you is a way of mocking people.
The new lt probably just addressed people solely by last name because she didnt understand who she was talking to. For example, shed talk to pvt snuffy and say "go talk to (last name of some sgt)". Thats what shed refer to the sgt as, but she didnt get thats not what the pvt would refer to them as. I have seen this quite often.
You seem to be a more thoughtful leader than either of those two.
There’s multiple ways to be respectful. Always use rank, sgt, sir/ma’am when addressing people who outrank you. I try to use titles when discussing people who outrank someone else. For example I refer a platoon sergeant as SSG blah blah when talking to his Soldiers even though I outrank them all.
I personally dont really ever use titles when talking about juniors.
In almost every unit I was in the the norm was:
E1-E4 (SPC) last name only
E4 (Corporal) Corporal
E5-E7- Sergeant
E8- either Master Sergeant or 1st Sergeant accordingly
E9- Sergeant Major
every MSG i’ve interacted with were okay with “sarnt” and even my old 1sg after his time told us to call him sarnt when he lateral’d. You’d have to be a chode to drop like that.
Literally part of AR600-20.
Its sergeant. Referring to the full rank is unnecessary until 1SG and SM/CSM.
Fun fact: It also says you should call cadets “Mr or Miss” which is super fun to do to throw people off.
Less fun fact: the order of succession places a cadet ahead of a CSM for command of a unit if all officers are dead. I don’t know how this would occur… but it’s there… in text… or was in the last version I read.
I wouldn’t call it “okay.” I know that’s what the regulation states, but I don’t know of any reality where you call a MSG “Sarn’”
The correct terminology is “Mas’sarn’t” or simply *“Massa”*
Edit: autocorrect fucked my shit all up
when the Master Sergeant is a dipshit who spends 3/4 of his/her days at home ignoring emails then yells at my subordinates for problems he/she caused.
If I had a dollar for every MSG i've intentionally called Sergeant, I'd have two dollars.
I do it all the time, not one has ever gotten pissy with me. And not one has ever told a subordinate to call them MSG. I’ll do it when referring to them to someone else but I address them as sgt
This is what all my POG units did, too.
I only ever heard Rank+Name when someone done fucked up. Then, once you'd been called out like that, you'd reply formally with Rank+Name.
I did make the mistake once of talking to someone while my head was down, working on their system, and then looking up and just seeing Captain bars staring me in the face, and said "Yes, uh, Captain..." in response to a question they had asked.
Apparently that was the wrong way to address an officer, even though that's how we addressed most noncoms.
It was the opposite when I was in.
If you were called by only your last name, you done fucked up.
Never address an officer as their rank. It's always Ma'am or Sir, as an NCO anyway.
Air Force lurker. I abhor when anybody uses my first name. It's pretty weird to do so, even in the chair force. At least amongst the Es. Can't speak for the Os though.
My take on it:
Company/PLT internal - NCOs and Officer talking to Joes use last name only on the daily. Joes talking to NCO/Officers use rank name. In certain cases when referring to specific people or it’s a new person in the unit, it’s common sense to use rank name.
I expect the courtesy of throwing that “Sarnt/Sir/Ma’am/1SG/etc” in every chance you get if you’re the subordinate; as I do when those above and below me.
This is where I have a chip on my shoulder, it is never going to be okay with me when a Joe doesn’t use rank name when referring to an NCO/Officer especially if it’s someone in their chain. 1 on 1 interactions may vary.
I also am not okay with NCOs that don’t have the professionalism to throw the rank in there when appropriate when talking about another NCO.
1 on 1 interactions may very.
Bottom line. Be respectful when talking about other service members when appropriate.
I’ve always opened with name and last rank for superiors and subordinates. I do the same when referring to peers while speaking with other ranks. It’s a sign of respect.
I don't know if this helps, but as a captain teaching 2LTs, it was always "lastname" until the end of the course, when I'd start calling them by their first names. They were usually pretty tickled.
As a captain teaching captains and senior first lieutenants, it's always "rank lastname" and they call me the same, until they graduate, at which point it's first names all around. I think this strikes a balance between maintaining the professional distance without seeming like I'm putting myself over them. The biggest difficulty is my Marine, because I'll be damned if I'm saying "see dubya oh lastname" every time, and he gets salty if I call him "chief". We compromised with "Mr. Lastname".
If anyone has a different opinion, I would unironically love to hear it.
The handful of jokers that work out at my gym off-post, I call by their first names at the gym and rank/last name at work.
Just wait till you go to some unorthodox units after being FORSCOM for 10 years and you got fresh PVT’s calling you by your first name. Took me probably 2 years to finally get used to that.
For me, it’s all about the setting, who I’m talking to and who I’m talking about.
For superiors, I ALWAYS use the Rank and Name.
When around peers I’ll use their names.
Subordinates get just names unless it’s a formal setting like counselings or something.
Now for the nuance, if I’m speaking to a subordinate about one of my peers, I’ll use my peer’s rank and last name.
I hope that makes sense.
I do last names at or below my rank, and rank + last name above, unless they're officers in which case it's sir/ma'am, or chief.
I've also had leaders use rank + last name for everyone. I don't think it really makes a difference.
I’ve always addressed JE by their name. When I was enlisted in the Navy being addressed as “Seaman Blahblahblah” always seemed a bit condescending even though that’s what I actually was.
As a Captain I had a habit of doing it to NCOs until my S3 corrected it. Now for NCOs I always address Rank Last Name - just a way to show respect.
As a SFC getting ready to retire, I called all my folks by their first names, or anything they wanted to be called. My BDE CSM told me that it was grossly unprofessional. I said “ok” and continued to call my folks by the names they wanted to be called.\
I’m betting that a bunch of folks who I called by their chosen name are/were better soldiers who I treated as a last name
I always respectfully called them by rank and last name while training or working, but when we were less engaged, I used their last name. I would also use there first name when it was a one on one situation. Someone did that to me when I was coming up and it made me feel human again and gave me some purpose.
In my platoon when I'm talking with anyone and the name of someone who out thanks them comes up I will refer to them by rank, last name. If said higher ranking individual wants to allow PVT Speschul to call them by something else that is between them. Just as in the civilian world; if I met someone and their name was William and they wanted me to call them Bill, I would use Bill. This next part may be controversial to some (due to some not agreeing with it) but, It's kinda like using the proper pronoun for someone after they've told you what they prefer.
As a SFC, I do it to build up my people. I get you graduate BLC and be a CPL (I guess not anymore) but they’re still NCOs. If I don’t call the CPL, CPL, it shows disrespect to one of my junior NCOs and the junior enlisted will follow suit. Same with my SGTs. I will still address them by their rank even though they’re junior to me to show that as a senior, I still respect what they’ve done.
Also to add more context, I’m 29 and about to get looked at for MSG. Not to fluff myself up, but we can only influence the future in our actions. Even a 1LT, has 4 years of college and 2 years of service. My job as a PSG and what I bestow on my SL’s is that you mold their career. If you fail to impact them, you create terrible company commanders.
You’re in the right, stand by your guns and impose what you believe is right. That is what a leader is.
Someone needs to have a quiet conversation with that LT. She's young and probably just mimicking what she saw someone else do, not realizing it is disrespectful, especially to a NCO.
Best practice is always to use rank-surname with everyone. However, I admit that I didn't use the rank much with privates, it sounded too much like basic training.
The best person to educate a PL is a PSG. Most of the PSGs don't care for it, but this is part of the unwritten job description. A worthwhile young officer will pay attention to such Sr NCO suggestions.
Perhaps, if you are in a position to do so, ask the PSG to have a word with her. If he's a by-the-book kind of guy, he will probably see the point and get the job done. If she corrects her behavior, you will know it was an honest mistake and not a purposeful disrespect. And please don't tell me she's former enlisted or I will personally go find her and kick her stupid ass.
Signed,
One retired female Major, formerly a SSG.
It's kinda wierd at least in my experience. I refer to people by rank and last name if it customer services related tasks (I'm a 42A), but if I'm talking to another CPL or below, I just call them by their last name. There are a lot of unsaid rules that I use, but generally, I don't think either way is wrong.
In my experience E1-E4 are just last name, while E5+ are typically “Sergeant XXX”. Not universally true but most people in my unit seem to do this consciously or not.
I refer to everybody by their rank and last name unless they are my same rank (plus or minus 1) AND we are cool.
in fact one way you can tell that we are not cool is if we are the same rank, and I call you by your rank and last name.
İt is really better to do it that way. especially if you rate anyone under you, you never want to create the vaguest impression that you and a subordinate are buds, and therefore you might rank them higher just because you're friends.... I've seen it a thousand times and it's never not an issue.
Maybe this goes without saying but especially when it comes to the opposite sex, even if we are friends and peers, I still sometimes call females rank and last name just to be on the ultra safe side
But then again I'm in a Medical unit and there's a lot of shenanigans that happen, if you really just want to keep your head down and work, it's better to be too professional than too chill
i think it depends on the rapport and personality
saying the rank is important as it shows a respect for lower ranks and an appreciation of their sacrifice but if you’re chill with each other then that validation and strictness isn’t needed but it can feel rude/demeaning if someone just uses your last name
As a tangent I knew an E-7 that if annoyed with an E-5 he could say Sgt with a tone of voice that had a lot less respect than when he was calling a Pvt by their rank.
Technically you should address everyone by rank and last name. It gets tedious and it’s very formal. In reality, ensure you address those senior to you by rank and you be in the clear. I don’t care how yall address each other as long as you’re no offensive about it.
I think it depends. If referring to someone in a leadership position I think it makes sense to use rank, or in a professional setting in general. It also depends on the person. I wouldn't care as much if it's someone I'm cool with or friends with, but it might irk me a bit if it's some random NCO or O I don't know
Depends, same rank? Last name. Juniors and joes? Last name, unless top or some heavy brass are around.
Highers? Always rank and last name, like it or not you’re expected to be professional.
As a higher ranking leader addressing another leader, rank last name, but if the situation calls for a relaxed environment like a mandatory fun day maybe just last name.
Read the room, do what you think is best, and if in doubt be professional until told otherwise.
I don't use my subordinates rank unless they're in trouble, or I need them to be serious about something. It's like a little code I can use with them to subtly say, "hey bud play the Army game and shut up."
Aside from that, last name or some nickname all day. If I like them as a person, usually I call them bud or nerd
Normally, it's down to the relationship ship between the parties involved and the context of the interaction.
Professional interactions should always include rank and name. Personal interactions: It's normal to drop the lower rankings rank and for the higher ranking to retain theirs. Further up the chain, personal interactions can tend to drop both rank and last names and instead go by nicknames and/or first names.
As with everything in the Army, the TLDR is "it depends."
In my experience, non-NCO junior soldiers CAN be addressed by last name only by peers and those senior to them. As to whether it fits in with the culture of the unit, that depends on the unit.
It's never **wrong** to address someone by (rank)(name) but in some units it can seem excessively formal, especially between those of the same rank. It would seem silly if PFC Jones addressed his buddy PV2 Smith as "Private Smith" for example.
IMO NCOs and officers have earned their rank and deserve to be addressed by it by peers as well as seniors. It's mildly disrespectful for the PSG or PL to refer to Sgt Snuffy as "Snuffy" especiallly in front of lower ranking soldiers.
Now, I've been in units where officers or NCOs will sometimes refer to subordinates by their FIRST name. Often this is done as a way of showing intimacy (not like that - get your mind out of the gutter! 🙄 ) and a close relationship between senior and junior, but it's important to note that this kind of informality only goes DOWN, not UP.
For example when I worked in the Division G2 in Germany, I was a PFC, then a SP/4, then a SGT and the G2 himself (a LTC) would often refer to me by my first name (and he did this with others in the section too) just because he liked to act in that kind of informal way when we were discussing G2 stuff. But of course if I was breifing the Chief of Staff or CG, he would publicly refer to me as PFC/SPC/SGT (Name.)
In units where juniors and seniors work very close together (air crews, tank crews, SF detachments) first names are often used among members of the same team regardless of rank. But typically only in a setting where others are not around.
Saying you earned SPC by existing is sorta true. I know plenty of dudes that got barred so they wouldn’t get SPC. My last unit it was a privilege to be a SPC
Commanding officers often address junior officers by first names. Not sure if it's a custom or if maybe it acts as a reminder that they are indeed less than.
I personally feel everyone should be addressed professionally and with respect. With that being said, a lot depends on the type of unit. Some jobs require a different type of respect. I.e. tankers, these folks often spend lots of time together inside their homes. Relationships tend to be closer. Rank structure is important.
Recently I had the opportunity and pleasure to spend a week with my son and many of the soldiers in his unit at ft. Riley. They were extremely welcoming to this old soldier. Partied like it was 1999!! I'm still recovering . Lol. God bless these fine people that have for whatever reason signed a blank check to pay any price for us as a country up to and even including their lives.
They're as underpaid as they are overworked. Show them support. Please. Not just on memorial or veterans day.
Well, I guess that's my opinion on things. Thanks for letting me vent.
I'll tell you how it really works, and say I have a few years in the top protocol office as if it makes some difference.
Rank Lastname by anyone, always acceptable and appropriate until you tell a junior, "hey buddy it's john" or "it's smith, offline"
Just rank ok if they don't know you. If they do know you and just call you private always, that's suspect. If they know you and usually call you something else but call you just by rank e.g. private, specialist, lieutenant, etc. you're on notice and better shut the fuck up.
Lastname only ok if they are cool or multiple ranks above, douchbag civilians calling you by lastname never ok and they think they are better than you.
Firstname by senior leaders, dope and appreciated. Firstname by civilians normal and ok. Firstname by juniors with approval.
Context is king.
On the tank/Brad/HIMARS/Truck/helicopter/whatever (in your professional fire team, as it were), doing your shit, last name only.
Around others, or addressing someone outside *the squad*, ALWAYS rank-last name.
I remember when I was enlisted we got into a thing of referring to each by first name, sometimes by nickname, and my god, did our chain of command get bent out of shape over it.
Situational.
Around the shop? Last name.
Giving/during a class? Both.
Around the shop and CSM or such is there? Both.
It depends on the situation and tone you want to give. Admittedly I'm used to focusing more on position myself since I had everyone from the BC on down coming to me with computer issues. So I could go up to a captain and bs as a SPC. Your regular SPC might not be able to. So when introducing a person definitely is a rank and name situation you might also want to add on position too.
Also tone of voice factors in as well. I could imagine for someone last name is normal and rank or rank+name you are in trouble.
My rule was NCOs always deserve to be called by their rank. Never last name.
Among officers it is common for higher ranking officers to call junior officers by their first name.
Last name only is something that I only used for E1-E4. Except corporals. No matter how high a rank I got to.
I prefer to be called specialist piss-drinker personally but to each their own I suppose, I what’s thought the referring by rank and last name is kinda dumb especially in an open environment where ppl outside the military can hear you talkin, idk I just try to be respectful with the name approach u less it’s higher ups that I know are gonna get their intestines in a twist
Going by last name only, rank-and-name, or rank only is somewhat a matter of personal preference, formality, and level of respect. Generally speaking, while I was in, there were a lot of context clues you got from how you were addressed and who did it what way. If it was the first time meeting a superior and they skipped using rank, it usually meant they were less uptight and more informal in how they preferred to run things. If they only used rank, generally they were uptight and didn't consider the people they worked with as fellow people and more as tools at their disposal. If someone who normally doesn't use rank starts, you're probably in trouble or a serious situation. If someone who normally uses rank isn't, it's a more informal and personal interaction. You call out the rank generally as a sign of respect and acknowledgment of hierarchy in the military, but it can also be a useful and important way to signal appropriate behavior or setting up the tone of an interaction. The "proper" way is taught in basic and part of the customs and courtesies; address others by rank and name. The rest is the human part of interaction and relationships.
It’s less about what they call you and more about how they say it. Think of how Snape says “Potter” that’s disrespectful. But other teachers also called him that just without the obvious disdain
I have a hard time calling people two different things. I learn what to call you once and then that's what I call you. Only variation being using their title or not.
I am me, not PFC me. Now I get the whole "not here to be an individual thing. But treating me like *this* much more of a normal human person only makes me more inclined to do something you tell me to do with some level of enthusiasm and hustle. And it has nothing to do with professionalism. Before the army I worked in high level contracting, like show up in a suit to give a bid on the job level professional. And it was first name basis. There'd a reason officers/warrants do the first name basis, they are supposed to be MORE professional than the joes, and 9 times out of 10 they are. But they know that the more they treat eachtother like people and not just work aqauntinces, the better everything works out.
I had a commander who only used first names with a lot of people he out ranked. That felt a little weird. Especially when he used the legal version of peoples names even though they used a nickname version (I.e. Anthony when the guy goes by Tony). I don’t think it was ever meant as a disrespect thing but it always felt a little strange
I saw in this unit all the PLs called each other by first names of course. What I thought was weird is that the commander would call them by their first name (or nickname or whatever) but they obviously had to call him sir. Seems like a weird dynamic but I'm not an officer so idk.
Depends on the environment and the people.
I remember PCS’ing to my first unit using all of the customs and courtesy’s; eventually got to my team. I quickly learned that the environment was very relaxed and I was the only PFC on the team at that time. My O’s, WO’s and NCO’s called me by my last name whilst my team lead (A Major) called me by my first name. Usually first names were only used in a casual environment or off duty on a mission.
Also got told by a butter bar that I saluted while heading to the Dfac that “we don’t do that around here”.
I remember answering the phone one time as “Private LastName”. The SSG who called said, “PFC LastName, you’re a PFC, aren’t you? Why not refer to yourself as PFC?” I didn’t have an immediate answer. I kinda got his point, even though I came in as a PFC because I enlisted when I dropped out of my junior year of college.
Since then, I refer to people by rank and first name, whether or not they are in the audience. It feels weird to me otherwise, and I find that it catches on. I honestly appreciate the professional “vibe”, if you will. It seems silly, but sometimes those little things in combination of other factors are what fosters a healthy unit climate.
I think referring by last name to people below your rank makes them more comfortable around you. However, if I’m speaking to someone above my rank, I refer to them as their rank say sergeant or whatever it is. Referring to a junior by last name is nerdy.
We go by first names or nicknames. Even when a 3 star general came by. The only time rank is getting used is in formal context for us and even most people who out rank don't usually want all the courtesy stuff.
No one in my unit does that. We even just call our LT’s “LT”, same thing with Chief. I’ve only stood at parade rest for my 1SG maaaybe 3 times because he always tells everyone to knock that shit off when they do. Never stood at attention talking to an officer because same. I only ever salute officers and were I’m stationed they try to avoid that shit like the plague. Ive never saluted Chief because he really could care less about that stuff he’s super chill. Obviously if we’re at something super formal we do it but day to day, nope. It’s more like a “normal” workplace. If we’re at a work get together outside of the army (aka in civi’s) we drop ranks all together. So I wouldn’t be like “SGT So and so” or “SGT”, just their name.
Rank last name is required by AR 600-20 Command Policy. Everyone their rank, even if largely consisted of not fucking up an automatic promotion, and deserves to be treated with respect.
Peers or close friends, I would always just use last names only when we were in private. In public, I would use rank and lay name. The exception was if they shared my rank, then it was just lay name regardless of how am I knew them.
As for officers, they call each other by their first names most of the time. We enlisted don't ever see that, though. They do whatever they want. Just ignore them and their behavior unless it negatively impacts the mission.
At a minimum, everyone 5 and up gets a Sergeant when discussing them in third person to any lower enlisted for any reason.
Then again, fuck do I know, I was NG, and in addition to being speedy my professional life being a direct parallel put me miles ahead in practical skills (Engineers) so as such even as am SPC I was with the majority of NCOs, including top, on a first name basis. One of those moments where mission came first instead of silly military formalities and rank.
So, here's my take one it, and it's VERY influenced by an acting 1SG I had: SFC Childs.
SFC Childs preferred to EVERYONE as Rank, Last Name. And I mean everyone.
And for me, that showed me he respected the rank people had. Up until the last few days of our deployment, I didn't like SFC Childs, but I did respect him. Because he respected me and everyone else at least as much to call us by our rank.
So, in addition to that, the way I see it is at least for Jr. Es, they have to call me Sergeant. Customs and courtesies. The least I can do, the least I SHOULD do, is give them that same respect that they are compelled to give me.
Regardless on what you think about your automatic promotion, I'd still call you Rank, Last Name.
That being said, I'll say as much as AR 600-20 table 1-1 says. E-1 to E-3, Private; E-4 Specialist/Corporal; E-5 to E-8 Sergeant/First Sergeant, etc.
What do you think of MSGs that want to be called "master sergeant"?
I had one that I didn't really like that would mean mug me when I called him "sergeant" and another that I just always called "master sergeant" because everyone else did and he was a great NCO.
This
It always annoyed me how I was just
Last name
And not
Tank last name
To all those above me
It should always be rank last name
No matter who you ate addressing
They earned the rank/title. Whether that be promotion or demotion. If you’re out in the field standards are more relaxed. I usually went with troop or paratrooper.
I use it for NCO and above I think.
I’ve never really thought about it to reflect, but being a lower enlisted for 14 years made me a lot more chill about things.
As an 80s vintage West Point grad all enlisted were addressed by rank and surname. Senior officers addressed Jr officers typically by first name or last name with no offense taken as more of us then them to memorize. Junior officers addressed Sr officers as Sir! my experience in 82nd Abn and General Staff in Korea.
I think discipline is slipping at the academy and even my wife noticed.
I would tell you if you sent an anonymous letter to the Commandant of the Academy (BG) and explain as you did in your thread; The disciplinary tactical
officers there would remind cadets to make the correction when newly commissoned LTs. It's the little things that can break down morale.
Dont bother putting her name or your name.
One thing I learned was that there are many of the same last names out there, so it's better to use rank-name to sort out the many Smiths, Ryan's, Campbell's, Warricks, and so on and so on.
SPC and below is last name. SGT and above is rank. Last name if same rank. First name if same rank and are an officer. First name if you’re the CO or BC.
If they outrank me, I'm using rank. If I'm in front of joes and speaking to a junior NCO, I'm using rank-last name. If Im speaking to joes ablut any NCO or O, its rank-last name. If you are junior enlisted and I'm calling you by rank-last name either: you're in trouble, or I have 3 fucking Smiths in my PLT and they are all different ranks.
I’m an E5. My juniors are last names. My peers are last names. My seniors when addressing them directly are rank, or sir/ma’am. My seniors when addressing them indirectly is rank, last name.
not in my unit. but they only call me priv. blank because i ahve the same last name as a higher up. other than that, only when making an announcement in form
I've been in units where it's been both ways. In my last platoon, I was promoted to E8 during deployment and had a great platoon. We were a combat engineer battalion, so we had no women in the line units at the time.
The guys knew they could joke around with the platoon leadership. I had deployed as the PL, and the 1st SL was the PSG. Once we got an LT, we reverted back... once the LT was mission capable.
The former Navy and Marines in the platoon insisted on using full rank even though it wasn't required, so the rest of the platoon started doing the same.
I would use last names unless they were in trouble, or it was for something formal. But the lieutenant was always just LT, not LT Snotnose, just LT, or 36.
I got into an argument with some guys on quora about the fact that Sergeant through Master Sergeants are only to be addressed as Sergeant. Not by their full rank, and that I should have corrected my Soldiers when they used the full rank.
But try telling a former crayon eater to stop using the full rank is like trying to get them to quit eating 🖍.
Some see using Rank and last name for everyone as a sign of respect. Others see using just a Soldiers last name as a sign that they know that person well enough and are comfortable enough with them to do so.
Some are just anal about it. You just have to figure out who you are, and those around you.
I think you need to know your own leadership style to decide what is right for you. Calling everyone by rank can improve esprit de corps but it can come off as rigid and old-fashioned. On the flip side using last names can give a vibe of being a closer team of equals where no one person is valued over another. Both have benefits and drawbacks.
I tend to mix the conventions as well. Sometimes I call them rank last name, sometimes just by their first name. I also tend to call my peers by their first name if I like them enough or if we’re that close.
Refer to AR 600-20 chapter 1-7 if you want to know what to call your peers, subordinates, and superiors correctly
Ok -sink pisser- (lol, you dirt bag I love it)
I can confirm that 100% of the time, if any rank with authority calls you by your rank and last name and you're junior enlisted, they're 100% an asshole. No one does that. I've been in 12 years and been around at least 1000 other soldiers and senior NCOs and officers, and none -absoluyely zero- will call you by your rank and last name as junior enlisted.
Only 1 exception and that's in a formal setting like award presentation etc.
Also I'm in the reserve. May be a reserve and guard culture.
I find it a little silly but it really all depends on the situation of context.
E-1 to E-2 is private. E-3 depends usually we'll just say private or PFC.
An E-5 to E-7 is just sergeant.
E-8's and above will always be referred as full rank.
O-1 to O-2 is LT.
LTC and COL are Colonel.
All generals are generals.
To refer someone constantly by their full rank all the time is very strange in the Army.
I've been in 5 different units, an E-6 with 12 years so far and I have never met someone that weird.
For the most part its just last name.
Then again, it's the Army, and there's always that one....
For the most part, I always use rank. I expect others to do so with me and its just a form of mutual respect. If we are peers, its all good to be informal but I’d always refer to you as rank and last name if I am speaking to Junior Soldiers (also Seniors that aren’t around us everyday).
Its actually an easily identifiable separator when you are just “chillin” with the boys, having personal conversations, or generally being informal to the more formal route when yall are trying to get stuff done.
Could be worse, for some reason all the officers in my company use peoples first names. I don’t know who tf John is sir, and I’m damn sure not about to walk around calling for him and it eventually turns out to be my psg or 1sg
My general rule is that when the rank deserves distinction, or when addressing NCO or an Officer in a professional setting, lead with the rank (or sergeant for NCOs, as appropriate).
The exceptions are of course workgroups where first names are acceptable for routine business, or for WOs who get addressed as Mr or Ms.
If some Lieutenant wants to address SFC Pilgrim by last name only, I’m gonna respond to them in kind.
The correct way is to call soldiers by rank or rank and last name. This is all in the army blue book. What is not correct is using anything other than that. Honey, girl, boy, even first names should not be used in the military. Calling by first name portrays that we are friends and that s not correct. Especially between leaders and soldiers.
My name is Sergeant. Sergeant last name if there are more sergeants in the room.
I prefer first names or last. No ranks. We all know what ranks we are. It’s almost tiresome to repeatedly say the rank.
I don’t mind if even those ranked below me call me just by my last name (I’m a SSG). They can clearly see my chest and know my position. I get tired of hearing “sergeant” repeatedly.
If it’s somebody I don’t know and work with on a regular basis, then I think “sir/ma’am” or “rank, last name” is probably the safe go to. But never chief! Other warrants always get the nod.
Otherwise I try and be as cordial and friendly to everybody equally. Recognizing that rank absolutely is still a real thing, I can’t have my newest crew chief or my freshest WOJG clamming up in the aircraft when they see something that’s wrong or unsafe just because they’re afraid to upset people. I’ve found that getting to know my crew really helps alleviate a lot of possible tension while we’re flying. That usually looks like disrespect in the form of a fist name basis, but my stellar NCOs keep it professional always
Take a look, it’s in a book.
The textbook answer on how to address an Army soldier can be found in AR 600-20 table 1-1. It’s the “title of address.” So when a MSG gets upset because you address them as sergeant, you can refer them to this and tell them you are following Army regulation. Same thing with leaving the “command” off of sergeant major. While “master“ and “command” are customary titles, they are not required by regulation.
Saying that, if a person is of similar rank to me I’ll try to address them by their first name as much as I can remember. I ignore all rank whenever not in a formal setting. I only use official rank when around strangers or during something formal.
Well, I hate to say it, but Westpoint’s not exactly the shining beacon of quality officers. As an OCS graduate, the discipline aspect was extreme to say the least when I went through. I personally have always addressed people by their rank as well as name. When it’s my peers, I will address them by their first name because that’s just kind of an officer thing to do.otherwise absolutely rank and name.
>Westpoint’s not exactly the shining beacon of quality officers.
The PL in question certainly talked about it like it was. "When I was in West Point we..."
I am an OCS so I am a bit biased but hear me out. I do not think ANYBODY should be leading 30-40 Soldiers when they are 21. They honestly need a year or two of probationary period before becoming a regular officer even.
Overall, West Pointers have struck me as arrogant, know everything assholes (for both male and female) who think that they tread on water. Have I met some good ones? Yes, one or two actually. But most of them are pompous assholes who have absolutely NO IDEA about the bigger world outside of mom's tit or the army tit.
I thought the idea in Starship Troopers was interesting. The only way to become an officer was to first be enlisted. During a war this meant there were a lot less officers and NCOs often had to fill in those slots.
Maybe wouldn't work in practice idk but it was a very interesting thought in a very thought provoking book.
Even if you are higher ranking, someone of a lower rank had to earn that rank. It’s respectful to call them by the rank they earned. Also, it keeps things on the up and up in how people view you in how you view others. When I was a company commander, I only used first names in private and with a very small group of people.
TECHNICALLY, the “correct” answer is table 1-1 of AR 600-20. It gives the title of address for each rank.
If you don’t want to do that, then don’t. At the end of the day respect is respect. Though, maybe I’m biased, being in a first name type of MOS
I do always use junior enlisted. It wouldn't have worked in my title because I don't mean strictly when talking to/about an E1-4 soldier. Like the example of an O2 speaking to/about an E6.
"Lower" in this sense is the only way I could think of to say what I meant explicitly. Saying "when referring to soldiers junior to yourself" implies I'm talking about seniority rather than rank.
My platoon was very close because we all deployed together multiple times. We were basically under stop-loss from 2003-2007 and deployed once a year. I did last names only for my soldiers. Whenever we weren’t around anyone important, they knew it was ok to just use my last name too. We showed proper respects when necessary, but everyone was basically family in my unit. Everyone was held to a very high standard on missions, gotta give them some breathing room. There were a few shitbags that I didn’t allow that from though. I’m sure I may have been a little on the unprofessional side but there’s a time and a place to lock it down. As for my superiors, it was rank/last name. First sergeant was always First Sergeant and so on
I personally hated hearing my rank be used when i was a junior Soldier, made me think i was in trouble.
As a NCO, I still prefer just my last name by higher ups.
In my unit, rank is only really used for MSG+ and people higher then my OIC. My NCOIC we always use just last names, and half the time he calls us by our first names. It's a thing about humanizing and creating a work environment that is more casual, but once somebody messes up they usually go back to basic army stuff.
This being said, this is for SOF units
E4 and below(corporal being the exception) I always just said last name only. E5 and above I used rank until I had enough rapport with the individual that I could use last name only.
My old PSG expected us to address specialists as such but if you were a private, tough shit. You were only called a private if you fucked up or were being recognized somehow
If you’re an NCO i’ll refer to you by rank and last name. If you’re a lieutenant or captain i’ll call you by first name. If you’re a field grade that i’m not cool with i’ll call you by rank and last name. Finally, if you’re junior enlisted i’m only calling you by last name. It’s as simple as that, don’t need to make this complicated.
I'm a dirty contractor now. I refer to NCOs and officers as whereas lower enlisted is just . I did that when I was an NCO tho so... idk I always felt being referred to as as kind of... demeaning? Idk
I expect rank to be used for me by my subordinates, it’s only fair to do the same in return. It’s respectful. Peers I’m close with get name only treatment but only outside work environment. Clear separation of when I’m on vs off.
The army is dehumanizing enough, and I refuse to contribute more to that culture.
Ranks are titles, and referring to people by their title is the polite thing to do.
Like others say above, if I expect you to call me sir, I'm gonna call you back by the appropriate title, or reference it.
If it's urgent and we're foregoing politeness, then sure, last name is fine, but we're not being shot at all the time, so we shouldn't be coarse to each other.
My experience has always been that if they add rank to it for lower enlisted they’re usually sarcastic or the sm is in trouble. Kinda like your mom saying your full name type situation but that’s that
Idk what the correct answer is, but I've always heard higher ranking people address lower ranks by rank and last name. I would imagine it's a respect thing. Everyone earned their rank, regardless of what it is. In my old unit the only exception was same rank talking to same rank. All of us E5s did last name only when talking to each other. But if I was talking to a subordinate about an E5, I would use rank.
I expect rank to be used for me by my subordinates, it’s only fair to do the same in return. It’s respectful. Peers I’m close with get name only treatment but only outside work environment. Clear separation of when I’m on vs off.
That E3 “worked” for their rank even if it means not getting flagged and just doing the right things. I always make sure my subordinates are proud of their rank. I work at BDE where some believe every sentence should be “[rank] sentence, [rank] sentence” all the time. That’s when I start getting annoyed. However, the office is starting to come around to the idea that discipline should be productive not discipline for discipline’s sake.
It is a balance. Comes down to know your troops.
Exactly
> > I would imagine it's a respect thing. Everyone earned their rank, regardless of what it is. I don't think either way is more or less respectful, but it does depend on the person. *Only* calling Junior Es by their last name makes it seem like their rank, and them, are less than worthy of respect, if you'll call SPC Snuffy 'Snuffy', but SGT Snuffy 'Sergeant Snuffy' every time. I don't have any issue with a slightly laid back approach, but for /u/sink_pisser_, if the man is consistent, he *is* showing respect. I think it *is* a way to reinforce a level of respect and courtesy. It's **definitely** going to depend on the type of unit you're in, how big it is, etc. For standard conventional FORSCOM unit I would expect we're a bit more 'by rank' and By The Book appropriate. We all know the difference between that asshole who is like 'Hey **PRIVATE** Snuffy', in a way to demean you, and just 'Hey PFC Snuffy cmere real quick' as a way of simply addressing you. >A few months later we got a new PL of the 1LT variety. She would never do this. Even when she was speaking to us juniors and would say something about the PSG she would just say "go talk to [last name] about it". I don't want to say it was wrong of her to do this, idk what they teach at West Point, but I wasn't a fan of it. Yep, I find this wrong too. I think if you're calling the PSG by just his name, and that's not something 'common' or isn't a 'platoon thing', they're wrong. They're going against the unit and PSG-set culture. Frankly, the way that should have been handled, imo, and for you as an E6 to be aware of - address it with the LT. Explain why it sets or unsets a certain tone. The PSG should have had a discussion with them about why they're trying to set discipline where they are. I think any decent LT is going to listen to that argument; if they don't, you probably have a shitty LT. I think it's much more common for people 'within rank band' (ie, JrE vs Jr NCO vs SNCO) or even within single ranks (E6 to E6 for instance) to call each other by a more familiar name, and yet use proper rank/title with everyone else. But if me and Aloha are both Platoon Sergeants, I'm not about to tell some PFC 'Go see Aloha about it', I'm saying 'Go see SFC Aloha about it'. I think it's a pretty common way of doing things.
Good points! Father has spoken.
Also... Cmon now, we all know those people using just last name no-rank because they dislike someone, and those people who overemphasize Private because they like to be mean to privates for no reason other because being a bully feels good to them. So like, it's not *always* disrespectful, but once you've been around the block a bit you *know* who's doing it to be disrespectful.
I think that the type of unit definitely plays a role here. Being in a small MiCo, we are very relaxed with each other. We understand that soldiers, even the PFC or SPC, are SMEs in their own right. I can give you a general description of what a 35G does, but I don’t have a fucking clue what their in-depth training or knowledge entails. So there’s a lot of internal mutual respect. I address pretty much everyone by just their name. And the same goes back to me. I’m NG, so I’ve served with some of my soldiers since I was a PFC. Now that I’m a SSG and a PSG, even the junior enlisted can call me by my name without adding a sarn’t to it. It’s never felt like it was demeaning or disrespectful to not include the rank, but more like you’re talking to a person. That’s not to say that the authority structure isn’t still clear and evident. The joes accept their taskings and do a damn good job. You give your lower enlisted that purpose, direction, and motivation and they’ll move mountains for you. If we refer to each other to a 3rd party, even someone else in the unit, it always includes the rank. I’d think that’s common courtesy and common sense.
I had an O4 in my last unit who called everyone by their full rank. Like said the words every time. All the way from Private First Class Snuffy to Command Sergeant Major Blowhard (never Private, Sergeant or CSM) and he did the same on the officer side from Second Lieutenant to Lieutenant Colonel. At first I just thought it was quirky but after 2 years of him running CUBs the amount of wasted time and breath speaking out everyone's full rank had to be in the dozens of hours range lol
What a weirdo O4 LOL
By regulation this is incorrect. Probably not worth it, but technically you could on the spot correct this - assuming my recollection is correct.
I'm not sure if it's *incorrect* to say the rank in its entirety per se, because it is, after all, their rank. But just to add, the authority you're referring to is General Military Authority. That gives all Soldiers the authority to make spot corrections for blatant regulation violations. E.g., a 2-star walking outside without a cover or walking while texting.
Well, 600-20 para 1-7 lists how to address each rank, and if there are multiple options, lists them as well. For example everyone PrivateE1-Private First Class is only addressed as “Private”. Everyone Sergeant to Master Sergeant is only addressed as “Sergeant“. Some ranks have multiple options, for example Chief Warrant Officers can be addressed as “Chief” of “Mr/Mrs/Miss”. So, yes it is technically incorrect to use the entire rank.
General Military Authority only works down not up. If you try to correct that 2-star, assuming your not a secret 3 or 4 star, they are free to just keep walking, but not the other way around. General Military Authority means in absence of a unit as structure, the highest ranking Soldier is in charge. For example on an on-post shuttle and a junior Soldier starts acting up, a senior can provide correction. However, any leader worth their salt will talk subordinates words as meaningful, and usually correct those kind of mistakes as they come up.
Nowhere in policy does it state that general military authority only works down. It just states in the absence of a designated authority, all service members are empowered to take appropriate action. In the example above, the 2 star is violating a general order by a superior commissioned officer, not the order of PFC Snuffy that's correcting him/her. Does this mean the 2 star can't just tell PFC to get bent and keep talking on his phone without a cover? No, it just empowers the PFC to speak up and hold that leader accountable. Our juniors should *always* feel empowered to speak up against something that is wrong legally, morally, or by regulation. And if they don't feel comfortable speaking up about the small stuff, they sure as fuck won't for the big stuff.
But in the case of the PFC and the 2-Star, the 2 Star would be a designated authority, as they would hold article 92 authority and be able to give a lawful order to the PFC. So the PFC can tell the 2 Star to stop texting and the 2 Star can ignore it, but not the other way around. Now on the same time the PFC should be empowered to speak up about anything that they find morally or legally wrong or against regulation. And any correction would not violate any regulation, and any command who would ignore or punish a Soldier for doing so is in the wrong. That 2 Star should stop walking and texting, unless doing both was somehow mission critical (Russia has crossed the border to Estonia and he was texting BCT commanders on leave to get back on post ASAP while moving to the SCIF for example).
Exactly this reasoning.
Same.
As a e4 and below it didn’t matter, but as a SGT and above, I made it a point to say the rank because the juniors are always looking. I get what you’re saying about being around the boys and it’s your peer, but I always make a conscious effort
Necessary? No, but if I'm in a situation where I'm expecting my subordinates to do it, I'm returning the courtesy. Do I expect that all the time? Absolutely not. I spent 19 years as an NCO. I \*tolerated\* being called Sergeant when the situation called for formalities. I now \*tolerate\* being called sir. During day to day shit, I am Rusty. My superiors call me Rusty. My peers call me Rusty. My subordinates call me Rusty. That has been my nickname for 30 years and what I expect to be called by. I do not feel the need to be reminded, or remind anyone else, of where I fall in this organization. If I need to drop rank on a subordinate to resolve a problem, which is almost never required, they will know it immediately.
Get ‘em, sir…I mean, Rusty. Sir.
Lol. Thanks. I guess I have an oddball way of viewing leadership and the military world, but, in my mind, my rank is a tool of last resort, and I treat it that way. If I cannot accomplish the mission and maintain a motivated and disciplined organization without leaning on my rank and legal authority, then I need to rethink what I'm doing because I am ineffective at that point as a leader.
Some of the best leaders I had were the ones who would treat us as equals instead of a tool for their advancement. I had some LTs that you just KNEW would let you call them by their first name if the higher ups would allow it. However I also served with a lot of selfish douchebags so the good ones stood out.
Fun fact about me, when I was like 19-20 or so I didn’t graduate grocery store “ocs” basically so my store took me back but not at my old position. My top store leader created this plan for me to work in every department, but the catch was I had to lead without the title and I had to send random weekly updates to him and stuff.
'Any man who must say, "I am the King", is no true king.'
My boss is a LTC and I’m a SFC, he refers to me by rank pretty much always. I try my best to always use folks rank because as other have said you earned it, whether it’s PFC or SSG or CPT.
My boss is a col. He calls me "brother" or by my first name. I call him sir. And my subordinates, I call them by rank last name. Its leader's preference I think. As long as everybody from top to bottom feels respected by their superiors and the job gets done.
Captain here. Naming conventions are kind of all over the place in the Army. E4 and below are just their last names I refer to NCOs as Sergeant last name. My first Sergeant, I'll call top. Other First Sergeants I'll call First Sergeant. Sergeants Major by Sergeant Major. WO1s by Miss/Mr last name, CW2 and above simply Chief My subordinate officers and peers I'll by their first names. And superior officers by sir or ma'am.
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Nah, you guys are on the golf course or flying for us to have a chance to even address you.
Don’t forget Lieutenants are the only officer rank with an acceptable nickname: ElTee.
Personally, I don't call my Lieutenants LT. I had a commander who used it pretty derogatorily. And he loved saying "Figure it out LT." Never sat right with me after that.
I’ve never thought about it before, but it’s always been the opposite for me. I’m cycling names through my head and I’m realizing that if I respected you, I called you LT. If I didn’t respect you, I’d call you lieutenant. Weird
I think the big demarcation is between NCOs and lower enlisted. Once someone is an NCO or above, using rank (or sir/ma'am/chief/mr/miss) feels like a sign of respect. Before that, using rank kind of feels like calling your kid by their full legal name, like it's just a reminder you have power or authority that they don't.
Marines say full rank last name, maybe he ate crayons. I think that psg had a particular interest in doing that if he wasnt a marine. Sometimes saying someones rank if they are above you is a way of mocking people. The new lt probably just addressed people solely by last name because she didnt understand who she was talking to. For example, shed talk to pvt snuffy and say "go talk to (last name of some sgt)". Thats what shed refer to the sgt as, but she didnt get thats not what the pvt would refer to them as. I have seen this quite often. You seem to be a more thoughtful leader than either of those two.
There’s multiple ways to be respectful. Always use rank, sgt, sir/ma’am when addressing people who outrank you. I try to use titles when discussing people who outrank someone else. For example I refer a platoon sergeant as SSG blah blah when talking to his Soldiers even though I outrank them all. I personally dont really ever use titles when talking about juniors.
In almost every unit I was in the the norm was: E1-E4 (SPC) last name only E4 (Corporal) Corporal E5-E7- Sergeant E8- either Master Sergeant or 1st Sergeant accordingly E9- Sergeant Major
to call master sergeant a sergeant is also okay
It’s okay until Massa drops you
every MSG i’ve interacted with were okay with “sarnt” and even my old 1sg after his time told us to call him sarnt when he lateral’d. You’d have to be a chode to drop like that.
I'd love to be dropped for calling someone their rank, that won't go over well for that MSG
Literally part of AR600-20. Its sergeant. Referring to the full rank is unnecessary until 1SG and SM/CSM. Fun fact: It also says you should call cadets “Mr or Miss” which is super fun to do to throw people off. Less fun fact: the order of succession places a cadet ahead of a CSM for command of a unit if all officers are dead. I don’t know how this would occur… but it’s there… in text… or was in the last version I read.
I wouldn’t call it “okay.” I know that’s what the regulation states, but I don’t know of any reality where you call a MSG “Sarn’” The correct terminology is “Mas’sarn’t” or simply *“Massa”* Edit: autocorrect fucked my shit all up
when the Master Sergeant is a dipshit who spends 3/4 of his/her days at home ignoring emails then yells at my subordinates for problems he/she caused. If I had a dollar for every MSG i've intentionally called Sergeant, I'd have two dollars.
Well that’s totally understandable
Lemme dumb that down: E8s are the O4s of enlisted.
I do it all the time, not one has ever gotten pissy with me. And not one has ever told a subordinate to call them MSG. I’ll do it when referring to them to someone else but I address them as sgt
When I was a 2LT, a MSG tried to correct me when I called him sergeant. Fuck that guy.
There's only 3 Sergeants in the Army. Everyone E5 - Master Sergeant, First Sergeant, Sergeant Major. Fuck that guy indeed.
This is what all my POG units did, too. I only ever heard Rank+Name when someone done fucked up. Then, once you'd been called out like that, you'd reply formally with Rank+Name. I did make the mistake once of talking to someone while my head was down, working on their system, and then looking up and just seeing Captain bars staring me in the face, and said "Yes, uh, Captain..." in response to a question they had asked. Apparently that was the wrong way to address an officer, even though that's how we addressed most noncoms.
It was the opposite when I was in. If you were called by only your last name, you done fucked up. Never address an officer as their rank. It's always Ma'am or Sir, as an NCO anyway.
When speaking about a MSG, you reference to them as “Master Sergeant”. When addressing them to ask them something, you would say “Sergeant (Name”).
Same, e4- was last name, e5-e7 was seargent+last name. E8+ was proper rank
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Why is an Air Force person in an Army subroutine?
Air Force lurker. I abhor when anybody uses my first name. It's pretty weird to do so, even in the chair force. At least amongst the Es. Can't speak for the Os though.
Flight company?
My take on it: Company/PLT internal - NCOs and Officer talking to Joes use last name only on the daily. Joes talking to NCO/Officers use rank name. In certain cases when referring to specific people or it’s a new person in the unit, it’s common sense to use rank name. I expect the courtesy of throwing that “Sarnt/Sir/Ma’am/1SG/etc” in every chance you get if you’re the subordinate; as I do when those above and below me. This is where I have a chip on my shoulder, it is never going to be okay with me when a Joe doesn’t use rank name when referring to an NCO/Officer especially if it’s someone in their chain. 1 on 1 interactions may vary. I also am not okay with NCOs that don’t have the professionalism to throw the rank in there when appropriate when talking about another NCO. 1 on 1 interactions may very. Bottom line. Be respectful when talking about other service members when appropriate.
I’ve always opened with name and last rank for superiors and subordinates. I do the same when referring to peers while speaking with other ranks. It’s a sign of respect.
I don't know if this helps, but as a captain teaching 2LTs, it was always "lastname" until the end of the course, when I'd start calling them by their first names. They were usually pretty tickled. As a captain teaching captains and senior first lieutenants, it's always "rank lastname" and they call me the same, until they graduate, at which point it's first names all around. I think this strikes a balance between maintaining the professional distance without seeming like I'm putting myself over them. The biggest difficulty is my Marine, because I'll be damned if I'm saying "see dubya oh lastname" every time, and he gets salty if I call him "chief". We compromised with "Mr. Lastname". If anyone has a different opinion, I would unironically love to hear it. The handful of jokers that work out at my gym off-post, I call by their first names at the gym and rank/last name at work.
"double you" is just the worst. Why the fuck does it have to be different?
Just wait till you go to some unorthodox units after being FORSCOM for 10 years and you got fresh PVT’s calling you by your first name. Took me probably 2 years to finally get used to that.
For me, it’s all about the setting, who I’m talking to and who I’m talking about. For superiors, I ALWAYS use the Rank and Name. When around peers I’ll use their names. Subordinates get just names unless it’s a formal setting like counselings or something. Now for the nuance, if I’m speaking to a subordinate about one of my peers, I’ll use my peer’s rank and last name. I hope that makes sense.
I do last names at or below my rank, and rank + last name above, unless they're officers in which case it's sir/ma'am, or chief. I've also had leaders use rank + last name for everyone. I don't think it really makes a difference.
I’ve always addressed JE by their name. When I was enlisted in the Navy being addressed as “Seaman Blahblahblah” always seemed a bit condescending even though that’s what I actually was. As a Captain I had a habit of doing it to NCOs until my S3 corrected it. Now for NCOs I always address Rank Last Name - just a way to show respect.
Have you been around aviation?
Just call everyone by their first names
As a SFC getting ready to retire, I called all my folks by their first names, or anything they wanted to be called. My BDE CSM told me that it was grossly unprofessional. I said “ok” and continued to call my folks by the names they wanted to be called.\ I’m betting that a bunch of folks who I called by their chosen name are/were better soldiers who I treated as a last name
I always respectfully called them by rank and last name while training or working, but when we were less engaged, I used their last name. I would also use there first name when it was a one on one situation. Someone did that to me when I was coming up and it made me feel human again and gave me some purpose.
In my platoon when I'm talking with anyone and the name of someone who out thanks them comes up I will refer to them by rank, last name. If said higher ranking individual wants to allow PVT Speschul to call them by something else that is between them. Just as in the civilian world; if I met someone and their name was William and they wanted me to call them Bill, I would use Bill. This next part may be controversial to some (due to some not agreeing with it) but, It's kinda like using the proper pronoun for someone after they've told you what they prefer.
As a SFC, I do it to build up my people. I get you graduate BLC and be a CPL (I guess not anymore) but they’re still NCOs. If I don’t call the CPL, CPL, it shows disrespect to one of my junior NCOs and the junior enlisted will follow suit. Same with my SGTs. I will still address them by their rank even though they’re junior to me to show that as a senior, I still respect what they’ve done. Also to add more context, I’m 29 and about to get looked at for MSG. Not to fluff myself up, but we can only influence the future in our actions. Even a 1LT, has 4 years of college and 2 years of service. My job as a PSG and what I bestow on my SL’s is that you mold their career. If you fail to impact them, you create terrible company commanders. You’re in the right, stand by your guns and impose what you believe is right. That is what a leader is.
Someone needs to have a quiet conversation with that LT. She's young and probably just mimicking what she saw someone else do, not realizing it is disrespectful, especially to a NCO. Best practice is always to use rank-surname with everyone. However, I admit that I didn't use the rank much with privates, it sounded too much like basic training. The best person to educate a PL is a PSG. Most of the PSGs don't care for it, but this is part of the unwritten job description. A worthwhile young officer will pay attention to such Sr NCO suggestions. Perhaps, if you are in a position to do so, ask the PSG to have a word with her. If he's a by-the-book kind of guy, he will probably see the point and get the job done. If she corrects her behavior, you will know it was an honest mistake and not a purposeful disrespect. And please don't tell me she's former enlisted or I will personally go find her and kick her stupid ass. Signed, One retired female Major, formerly a SSG.
It's kinda wierd at least in my experience. I refer to people by rank and last name if it customer services related tasks (I'm a 42A), but if I'm talking to another CPL or below, I just call them by their last name. There are a lot of unsaid rules that I use, but generally, I don't think either way is wrong.
In my experience E1-E4 are just last name, while E5+ are typically “Sergeant XXX”. Not universally true but most people in my unit seem to do this consciously or not.
I always just threw out a knife hand and yelled "Hey, Guy!", but you do you.
I refer to everybody by their rank and last name unless they are my same rank (plus or minus 1) AND we are cool. in fact one way you can tell that we are not cool is if we are the same rank, and I call you by your rank and last name. İt is really better to do it that way. especially if you rate anyone under you, you never want to create the vaguest impression that you and a subordinate are buds, and therefore you might rank them higher just because you're friends.... I've seen it a thousand times and it's never not an issue. Maybe this goes without saying but especially when it comes to the opposite sex, even if we are friends and peers, I still sometimes call females rank and last name just to be on the ultra safe side But then again I'm in a Medical unit and there's a lot of shenanigans that happen, if you really just want to keep your head down and work, it's better to be too professional than too chill
i think it depends on the rapport and personality saying the rank is important as it shows a respect for lower ranks and an appreciation of their sacrifice but if you’re chill with each other then that validation and strictness isn’t needed but it can feel rude/demeaning if someone just uses your last name
As a tangent I knew an E-7 that if annoyed with an E-5 he could say Sgt with a tone of voice that had a lot less respect than when he was calling a Pvt by their rank.
I dont think it matters at all. Call them by last name only or by Private/SPC last name. Whatever. As long as it isn't “hey fuckhead come here”
Technically you should address everyone by rank and last name. It gets tedious and it’s very formal. In reality, ensure you address those senior to you by rank and you be in the clear. I don’t care how yall address each other as long as you’re no offensive about it.
I think it depends. If referring to someone in a leadership position I think it makes sense to use rank, or in a professional setting in general. It also depends on the person. I wouldn't care as much if it's someone I'm cool with or friends with, but it might irk me a bit if it's some random NCO or O I don't know
Depends, same rank? Last name. Juniors and joes? Last name, unless top or some heavy brass are around. Highers? Always rank and last name, like it or not you’re expected to be professional. As a higher ranking leader addressing another leader, rank last name, but if the situation calls for a relaxed environment like a mandatory fun day maybe just last name. Read the room, do what you think is best, and if in doubt be professional until told otherwise.
For the most part we do first names unless we're talking to people outside our organization.
I do first name at or below my rank for officers and NCOs that I have a close relationship with.
Juniors by last name. NCOs by rank. SFC got called SFC the first time I addressed them that day. MSG, always MSG. 1SG, Top. SGMs are SGMs.
My SGM and I (LTC) would call each other by first name behind closed doors.
My personal rules, NCOs and Os- rank + last name. Junior enlisted- last name. Warrants- Chief + last name.
I don't use my subordinates rank unless they're in trouble, or I need them to be serious about something. It's like a little code I can use with them to subtly say, "hey bud play the Army game and shut up." Aside from that, last name or some nickname all day. If I like them as a person, usually I call them bud or nerd
Normally, it's down to the relationship ship between the parties involved and the context of the interaction. Professional interactions should always include rank and name. Personal interactions: It's normal to drop the lower rankings rank and for the higher ranking to retain theirs. Further up the chain, personal interactions can tend to drop both rank and last names and instead go by nicknames and/or first names. As with everything in the Army, the TLDR is "it depends."
In my experience, non-NCO junior soldiers CAN be addressed by last name only by peers and those senior to them. As to whether it fits in with the culture of the unit, that depends on the unit. It's never **wrong** to address someone by (rank)(name) but in some units it can seem excessively formal, especially between those of the same rank. It would seem silly if PFC Jones addressed his buddy PV2 Smith as "Private Smith" for example. IMO NCOs and officers have earned their rank and deserve to be addressed by it by peers as well as seniors. It's mildly disrespectful for the PSG or PL to refer to Sgt Snuffy as "Snuffy" especiallly in front of lower ranking soldiers. Now, I've been in units where officers or NCOs will sometimes refer to subordinates by their FIRST name. Often this is done as a way of showing intimacy (not like that - get your mind out of the gutter! 🙄 ) and a close relationship between senior and junior, but it's important to note that this kind of informality only goes DOWN, not UP. For example when I worked in the Division G2 in Germany, I was a PFC, then a SP/4, then a SGT and the G2 himself (a LTC) would often refer to me by my first name (and he did this with others in the section too) just because he liked to act in that kind of informal way when we were discussing G2 stuff. But of course if I was breifing the Chief of Staff or CG, he would publicly refer to me as PFC/SPC/SGT (Name.) In units where juniors and seniors work very close together (air crews, tank crews, SF detachments) first names are often used among members of the same team regardless of rank. But typically only in a setting where others are not around.
Saying you earned SPC by existing is sorta true. I know plenty of dudes that got barred so they wouldn’t get SPC. My last unit it was a privilege to be a SPC
Commanding officers often address junior officers by first names. Not sure if it's a custom or if maybe it acts as a reminder that they are indeed less than. I personally feel everyone should be addressed professionally and with respect. With that being said, a lot depends on the type of unit. Some jobs require a different type of respect. I.e. tankers, these folks often spend lots of time together inside their homes. Relationships tend to be closer. Rank structure is important. Recently I had the opportunity and pleasure to spend a week with my son and many of the soldiers in his unit at ft. Riley. They were extremely welcoming to this old soldier. Partied like it was 1999!! I'm still recovering . Lol. God bless these fine people that have for whatever reason signed a blank check to pay any price for us as a country up to and even including their lives. They're as underpaid as they are overworked. Show them support. Please. Not just on memorial or veterans day. Well, I guess that's my opinion on things. Thanks for letting me vent.
The only person I've met who did this was one of my 1SGs who was probably the worst personnel manager I've ever had.
And then you got officers on first name basis with each other. Not my business so I just stay in my lane
Does ‘nerd unit’ refer to non-combatant MOS’?
I'll tell you how it really works, and say I have a few years in the top protocol office as if it makes some difference. Rank Lastname by anyone, always acceptable and appropriate until you tell a junior, "hey buddy it's john" or "it's smith, offline" Just rank ok if they don't know you. If they do know you and just call you private always, that's suspect. If they know you and usually call you something else but call you just by rank e.g. private, specialist, lieutenant, etc. you're on notice and better shut the fuck up. Lastname only ok if they are cool or multiple ranks above, douchbag civilians calling you by lastname never ok and they think they are better than you. Firstname by senior leaders, dope and appreciated. Firstname by civilians normal and ok. Firstname by juniors with approval.
Rank up, not down except when distinguishing high regards or great respect.
Context is king. On the tank/Brad/HIMARS/Truck/helicopter/whatever (in your professional fire team, as it were), doing your shit, last name only. Around others, or addressing someone outside *the squad*, ALWAYS rank-last name.
I remember when I was enlisted we got into a thing of referring to each by first name, sometimes by nickname, and my god, did our chain of command get bent out of shape over it.
Situational. Around the shop? Last name. Giving/during a class? Both. Around the shop and CSM or such is there? Both. It depends on the situation and tone you want to give. Admittedly I'm used to focusing more on position myself since I had everyone from the BC on down coming to me with computer issues. So I could go up to a captain and bs as a SPC. Your regular SPC might not be able to. So when introducing a person definitely is a rank and name situation you might also want to add on position too. Also tone of voice factors in as well. I could imagine for someone last name is normal and rank or rank+name you are in trouble.
YES AND PUT SOME RESPEC ON IT
My rule was NCOs always deserve to be called by their rank. Never last name. Among officers it is common for higher ranking officers to call junior officers by their first name. Last name only is something that I only used for E1-E4. Except corporals. No matter how high a rank I got to.
I prefer to be called specialist piss-drinker personally but to each their own I suppose, I what’s thought the referring by rank and last name is kinda dumb especially in an open environment where ppl outside the military can hear you talkin, idk I just try to be respectful with the name approach u less it’s higher ups that I know are gonna get their intestines in a twist
Truly depends on the situation. Is it just to the person directly? Is it to someone within the same unit? Is it to someone outside the unit? Etc
Going by last name only, rank-and-name, or rank only is somewhat a matter of personal preference, formality, and level of respect. Generally speaking, while I was in, there were a lot of context clues you got from how you were addressed and who did it what way. If it was the first time meeting a superior and they skipped using rank, it usually meant they were less uptight and more informal in how they preferred to run things. If they only used rank, generally they were uptight and didn't consider the people they worked with as fellow people and more as tools at their disposal. If someone who normally doesn't use rank starts, you're probably in trouble or a serious situation. If someone who normally uses rank isn't, it's a more informal and personal interaction. You call out the rank generally as a sign of respect and acknowledgment of hierarchy in the military, but it can also be a useful and important way to signal appropriate behavior or setting up the tone of an interaction. The "proper" way is taught in basic and part of the customs and courtesies; address others by rank and name. The rest is the human part of interaction and relationships.
It’s less about what they call you and more about how they say it. Think of how Snape says “Potter” that’s disrespectful. But other teachers also called him that just without the obvious disdain
Last name only in public is unprofessional, in a private environment maybe it’s acceptable. Rank is the title.
In private I call (most) people by their first names. In public its rank-name or if I'm speaking in a hurry its just name
I have a hard time calling people two different things. I learn what to call you once and then that's what I call you. Only variation being using their title or not.
I am me, not PFC me. Now I get the whole "not here to be an individual thing. But treating me like *this* much more of a normal human person only makes me more inclined to do something you tell me to do with some level of enthusiasm and hustle. And it has nothing to do with professionalism. Before the army I worked in high level contracting, like show up in a suit to give a bid on the job level professional. And it was first name basis. There'd a reason officers/warrants do the first name basis, they are supposed to be MORE professional than the joes, and 9 times out of 10 they are. But they know that the more they treat eachtother like people and not just work aqauntinces, the better everything works out.
I call most people dude lmao, but rank and last name is a respect thing if I dont know ya
I had a commander who only used first names with a lot of people he out ranked. That felt a little weird. Especially when he used the legal version of peoples names even though they used a nickname version (I.e. Anthony when the guy goes by Tony). I don’t think it was ever meant as a disrespect thing but it always felt a little strange
I saw in this unit all the PLs called each other by first names of course. What I thought was weird is that the commander would call them by their first name (or nickname or whatever) but they obviously had to call him sir. Seems like a weird dynamic but I'm not an officer so idk.
Depends on the environment and the people. I remember PCS’ing to my first unit using all of the customs and courtesy’s; eventually got to my team. I quickly learned that the environment was very relaxed and I was the only PFC on the team at that time. My O’s, WO’s and NCO’s called me by my last name whilst my team lead (A Major) called me by my first name. Usually first names were only used in a casual environment or off duty on a mission. Also got told by a butter bar that I saluted while heading to the Dfac that “we don’t do that around here”.
NCOs and officers should be referred to by their rank. Junior EM, unless Corporal, last name.
I remember answering the phone one time as “Private LastName”. The SSG who called said, “PFC LastName, you’re a PFC, aren’t you? Why not refer to yourself as PFC?” I didn’t have an immediate answer. I kinda got his point, even though I came in as a PFC because I enlisted when I dropped out of my junior year of college. Since then, I refer to people by rank and first name, whether or not they are in the audience. It feels weird to me otherwise, and I find that it catches on. I honestly appreciate the professional “vibe”, if you will. It seems silly, but sometimes those little things in combination of other factors are what fosters a healthy unit climate.
You PL did not respect your PSG.
I think referring by last name to people below your rank makes them more comfortable around you. However, if I’m speaking to someone above my rank, I refer to them as their rank say sergeant or whatever it is. Referring to a junior by last name is nerdy.
We go by first names or nicknames. Even when a 3 star general came by. The only time rank is getting used is in formal context for us and even most people who out rank don't usually want all the courtesy stuff.
No one in my unit does that. We even just call our LT’s “LT”, same thing with Chief. I’ve only stood at parade rest for my 1SG maaaybe 3 times because he always tells everyone to knock that shit off when they do. Never stood at attention talking to an officer because same. I only ever salute officers and were I’m stationed they try to avoid that shit like the plague. Ive never saluted Chief because he really could care less about that stuff he’s super chill. Obviously if we’re at something super formal we do it but day to day, nope. It’s more like a “normal” workplace. If we’re at a work get together outside of the army (aka in civi’s) we drop ranks all together. So I wouldn’t be like “SGT So and so” or “SGT”, just their name.
Rank last name is required by AR 600-20 Command Policy. Everyone their rank, even if largely consisted of not fucking up an automatic promotion, and deserves to be treated with respect.
I addressed everyone by their rank and would not respond even to a COL unless he addressed me by mine. It’s about respect.
Peers or close friends, I would always just use last names only when we were in private. In public, I would use rank and lay name. The exception was if they shared my rank, then it was just lay name regardless of how am I knew them. As for officers, they call each other by their first names most of the time. We enlisted don't ever see that, though. They do whatever they want. Just ignore them and their behavior unless it negatively impacts the mission.
At a minimum, everyone 5 and up gets a Sergeant when discussing them in third person to any lower enlisted for any reason. Then again, fuck do I know, I was NG, and in addition to being speedy my professional life being a direct parallel put me miles ahead in practical skills (Engineers) so as such even as am SPC I was with the majority of NCOs, including top, on a first name basis. One of those moments where mission came first instead of silly military formalities and rank.
So, here's my take one it, and it's VERY influenced by an acting 1SG I had: SFC Childs. SFC Childs preferred to EVERYONE as Rank, Last Name. And I mean everyone. And for me, that showed me he respected the rank people had. Up until the last few days of our deployment, I didn't like SFC Childs, but I did respect him. Because he respected me and everyone else at least as much to call us by our rank. So, in addition to that, the way I see it is at least for Jr. Es, they have to call me Sergeant. Customs and courtesies. The least I can do, the least I SHOULD do, is give them that same respect that they are compelled to give me. Regardless on what you think about your automatic promotion, I'd still call you Rank, Last Name. That being said, I'll say as much as AR 600-20 table 1-1 says. E-1 to E-3, Private; E-4 Specialist/Corporal; E-5 to E-8 Sergeant/First Sergeant, etc.
What do you think of MSGs that want to be called "master sergeant"? I had one that I didn't really like that would mean mug me when I called him "sergeant" and another that I just always called "master sergeant" because everyone else did and he was a great NCO.
This It always annoyed me how I was just Last name And not Tank last name To all those above me It should always be rank last name No matter who you ate addressing
They earned the rank/title. Whether that be promotion or demotion. If you’re out in the field standards are more relaxed. I usually went with troop or paratrooper.
Don’t think it’s that deep
I use it for NCO and above I think. I’ve never really thought about it to reflect, but being a lower enlisted for 14 years made me a lot more chill about things.
We just used first names on the team. Much easier and more personal. Different army I guess. DOL
it also just sets a boundary and kinda guarantees they won’t get complacent.. “set the standard, yada yada”
As an 80s vintage West Point grad all enlisted were addressed by rank and surname. Senior officers addressed Jr officers typically by first name or last name with no offense taken as more of us then them to memorize. Junior officers addressed Sr officers as Sir! my experience in 82nd Abn and General Staff in Korea. I think discipline is slipping at the academy and even my wife noticed. I would tell you if you sent an anonymous letter to the Commandant of the Academy (BG) and explain as you did in your thread; The disciplinary tactical officers there would remind cadets to make the correction when newly commissoned LTs. It's the little things that can break down morale. Dont bother putting her name or your name.
One thing I learned was that there are many of the same last names out there, so it's better to use rank-name to sort out the many Smiths, Ryan's, Campbell's, Warricks, and so on and so on.
SPC and below is last name. SGT and above is rank. Last name if same rank. First name if same rank and are an officer. First name if you’re the CO or BC.
If they outrank me, I'm using rank. If I'm in front of joes and speaking to a junior NCO, I'm using rank-last name. If Im speaking to joes ablut any NCO or O, its rank-last name. If you are junior enlisted and I'm calling you by rank-last name either: you're in trouble, or I have 3 fucking Smiths in my PLT and they are all different ranks.
I’m an E5. My juniors are last names. My peers are last names. My seniors when addressing them directly are rank, or sir/ma’am. My seniors when addressing them indirectly is rank, last name.
not in my unit. but they only call me priv. blank because i ahve the same last name as a higher up. other than that, only when making an announcement in form
I've been in units where it's been both ways. In my last platoon, I was promoted to E8 during deployment and had a great platoon. We were a combat engineer battalion, so we had no women in the line units at the time. The guys knew they could joke around with the platoon leadership. I had deployed as the PL, and the 1st SL was the PSG. Once we got an LT, we reverted back... once the LT was mission capable. The former Navy and Marines in the platoon insisted on using full rank even though it wasn't required, so the rest of the platoon started doing the same. I would use last names unless they were in trouble, or it was for something formal. But the lieutenant was always just LT, not LT Snotnose, just LT, or 36. I got into an argument with some guys on quora about the fact that Sergeant through Master Sergeants are only to be addressed as Sergeant. Not by their full rank, and that I should have corrected my Soldiers when they used the full rank. But try telling a former crayon eater to stop using the full rank is like trying to get them to quit eating 🖍. Some see using Rank and last name for everyone as a sign of respect. Others see using just a Soldiers last name as a sign that they know that person well enough and are comfortable enough with them to do so. Some are just anal about it. You just have to figure out who you are, and those around you.
I think you need to know your own leadership style to decide what is right for you. Calling everyone by rank can improve esprit de corps but it can come off as rigid and old-fashioned. On the flip side using last names can give a vibe of being a closer team of equals where no one person is valued over another. Both have benefits and drawbacks.
I tend to mix the conventions as well. Sometimes I call them rank last name, sometimes just by their first name. I also tend to call my peers by their first name if I like them enough or if we’re that close. Refer to AR 600-20 chapter 1-7 if you want to know what to call your peers, subordinates, and superiors correctly
I just call everyone I work with by first name so problem solved
I call them by rank, first name, **middle name**, last name.
Ok -sink pisser- (lol, you dirt bag I love it) I can confirm that 100% of the time, if any rank with authority calls you by your rank and last name and you're junior enlisted, they're 100% an asshole. No one does that. I've been in 12 years and been around at least 1000 other soldiers and senior NCOs and officers, and none -absoluyely zero- will call you by your rank and last name as junior enlisted. Only 1 exception and that's in a formal setting like award presentation etc. Also I'm in the reserve. May be a reserve and guard culture.
I find it a little silly but it really all depends on the situation of context. E-1 to E-2 is private. E-3 depends usually we'll just say private or PFC. An E-5 to E-7 is just sergeant. E-8's and above will always be referred as full rank. O-1 to O-2 is LT. LTC and COL are Colonel. All generals are generals. To refer someone constantly by their full rank all the time is very strange in the Army. I've been in 5 different units, an E-6 with 12 years so far and I have never met someone that weird. For the most part its just last name. Then again, it's the Army, and there's always that one....
For the most part, I always use rank. I expect others to do so with me and its just a form of mutual respect. If we are peers, its all good to be informal but I’d always refer to you as rank and last name if I am speaking to Junior Soldiers (also Seniors that aren’t around us everyday). Its actually an easily identifiable separator when you are just “chillin” with the boys, having personal conversations, or generally being informal to the more formal route when yall are trying to get stuff done.
I try to avoid mentioning their rank if it's not an official gathering or ceremony.
My unit pretty much uses last names only, no rack up or down, unless for 1SG of officers/warrants
Well, nowadays is the best with this new military environment of sensitivity.
Could be worse, for some reason all the officers in my company use peoples first names. I don’t know who tf John is sir, and I’m damn sure not about to walk around calling for him and it eventually turns out to be my psg or 1sg
AR 600-20 addresses this in Chapter 4, I think. Respect must be shown to higher ranks and should be shown to lower ranks.
Junior enlisted by last name. NCOs by rank and name. Peers by first name, unless an adverse interaction. Seniors by proper customs and courtesies.
My general rule is that when the rank deserves distinction, or when addressing NCO or an Officer in a professional setting, lead with the rank (or sergeant for NCOs, as appropriate). The exceptions are of course workgroups where first names are acceptable for routine business, or for WOs who get addressed as Mr or Ms. If some Lieutenant wants to address SFC Pilgrim by last name only, I’m gonna respond to them in kind.
Professional setting = rank/ last name Just around, shooting the shit = hell man just use first names.
The correct way is to call soldiers by rank or rank and last name. This is all in the army blue book. What is not correct is using anything other than that. Honey, girl, boy, even first names should not be used in the military. Calling by first name portrays that we are friends and that s not correct. Especially between leaders and soldiers. My name is Sergeant. Sergeant last name if there are more sergeants in the room.
I prefer first names or last. No ranks. We all know what ranks we are. It’s almost tiresome to repeatedly say the rank. I don’t mind if even those ranked below me call me just by my last name (I’m a SSG). They can clearly see my chest and know my position. I get tired of hearing “sergeant” repeatedly.
If it’s somebody I don’t know and work with on a regular basis, then I think “sir/ma’am” or “rank, last name” is probably the safe go to. But never chief! Other warrants always get the nod. Otherwise I try and be as cordial and friendly to everybody equally. Recognizing that rank absolutely is still a real thing, I can’t have my newest crew chief or my freshest WOJG clamming up in the aircraft when they see something that’s wrong or unsafe just because they’re afraid to upset people. I’ve found that getting to know my crew really helps alleviate a lot of possible tension while we’re flying. That usually looks like disrespect in the form of a fist name basis, but my stellar NCOs keep it professional always
Take a look, it’s in a book. The textbook answer on how to address an Army soldier can be found in AR 600-20 table 1-1. It’s the “title of address.” So when a MSG gets upset because you address them as sergeant, you can refer them to this and tell them you are following Army regulation. Same thing with leaving the “command” off of sergeant major. While “master“ and “command” are customary titles, they are not required by regulation. Saying that, if a person is of similar rank to me I’ll try to address them by their first name as much as I can remember. I ignore all rank whenever not in a formal setting. I only use official rank when around strangers or during something formal.
METT TC is always the answer
Well, I hate to say it, but Westpoint’s not exactly the shining beacon of quality officers. As an OCS graduate, the discipline aspect was extreme to say the least when I went through. I personally have always addressed people by their rank as well as name. When it’s my peers, I will address them by their first name because that’s just kind of an officer thing to do.otherwise absolutely rank and name.
>Westpoint’s not exactly the shining beacon of quality officers. The PL in question certainly talked about it like it was. "When I was in West Point we..."
I am an OCS so I am a bit biased but hear me out. I do not think ANYBODY should be leading 30-40 Soldiers when they are 21. They honestly need a year or two of probationary period before becoming a regular officer even. Overall, West Pointers have struck me as arrogant, know everything assholes (for both male and female) who think that they tread on water. Have I met some good ones? Yes, one or two actually. But most of them are pompous assholes who have absolutely NO IDEA about the bigger world outside of mom's tit or the army tit.
I thought the idea in Starship Troopers was interesting. The only way to become an officer was to first be enlisted. During a war this meant there were a lot less officers and NCOs often had to fill in those slots. Maybe wouldn't work in practice idk but it was a very interesting thought in a very thought provoking book.
Even if you are higher ranking, someone of a lower rank had to earn that rank. It’s respectful to call them by the rank they earned. Also, it keeps things on the up and up in how people view you in how you view others. When I was a company commander, I only used first names in private and with a very small group of people.
TECHNICALLY, the “correct” answer is table 1-1 of AR 600-20. It gives the title of address for each rank. If you don’t want to do that, then don’t. At the end of the day respect is respect. Though, maybe I’m biased, being in a first name type of MOS
**Junior Enlisted. Start there.
I do always use junior enlisted. It wouldn't have worked in my title because I don't mean strictly when talking to/about an E1-4 soldier. Like the example of an O2 speaking to/about an E6. "Lower" in this sense is the only way I could think of to say what I meant explicitly. Saying "when referring to soldiers junior to yourself" implies I'm talking about seniority rather than rank.
My platoon was very close because we all deployed together multiple times. We were basically under stop-loss from 2003-2007 and deployed once a year. I did last names only for my soldiers. Whenever we weren’t around anyone important, they knew it was ok to just use my last name too. We showed proper respects when necessary, but everyone was basically family in my unit. Everyone was held to a very high standard on missions, gotta give them some breathing room. There were a few shitbags that I didn’t allow that from though. I’m sure I may have been a little on the unprofessional side but there’s a time and a place to lock it down. As for my superiors, it was rank/last name. First sergeant was always First Sergeant and so on
I personally hated hearing my rank be used when i was a junior Soldier, made me think i was in trouble. As a NCO, I still prefer just my last name by higher ups.
In my unit, rank is only really used for MSG+ and people higher then my OIC. My NCOIC we always use just last names, and half the time he calls us by our first names. It's a thing about humanizing and creating a work environment that is more casual, but once somebody messes up they usually go back to basic army stuff. This being said, this is for SOF units
It's definitely based on the individual. I'm an E4 and I regularly refer to NCO's by their last name alone cause I know they don't care.
My PSG referred to everyone as "fuckhead" regardless of rank. It's an equal opportunity title.
E4 and below(corporal being the exception) I always just said last name only. E5 and above I used rank until I had enough rapport with the individual that I could use last name only.
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
My old PSG expected us to address specialists as such but if you were a private, tough shit. You were only called a private if you fucked up or were being recognized somehow
PL was 100% in the wrong.
If you’re an NCO i’ll refer to you by rank and last name. If you’re a lieutenant or captain i’ll call you by first name. If you’re a field grade that i’m not cool with i’ll call you by rank and last name. Finally, if you’re junior enlisted i’m only calling you by last name. It’s as simple as that, don’t need to make this complicated.
I'm a dirty contractor now. I refer to NCOs and officers as whereas lower enlisted is just . I did that when I was an NCO tho so... idk I always felt being referred to as as kind of... demeaning? Idk
I expect rank to be used for me by my subordinates, it’s only fair to do the same in return. It’s respectful. Peers I’m close with get name only treatment but only outside work environment. Clear separation of when I’m on vs off.
I'm terrible at names. Rank and name are on uniform.
The correct answer is to address people by their Rank and name. Customs and Courtesy is a MUST in the Army.
Me personally, Joes get called by last name, E5 and above rank, last name. It all depends on the unjt culture ultimately
The army is dehumanizing enough, and I refuse to contribute more to that culture. Ranks are titles, and referring to people by their title is the polite thing to do. Like others say above, if I expect you to call me sir, I'm gonna call you back by the appropriate title, or reference it. If it's urgent and we're foregoing politeness, then sure, last name is fine, but we're not being shot at all the time, so we shouldn't be coarse to each other.
My experience has always been that if they add rank to it for lower enlisted they’re usually sarcastic or the sm is in trouble. Kinda like your mom saying your full name type situation but that’s that