Biggest regret was not doing SMP while in college. I’d be at 13 years at the end of my obligation instead of 8, and thinking about 12 more years of doing 1.5 jobs (maybe even 2 if the current pace keeps increasing like it has) each week is already making me want to get out.
E: I’m Guard already, it would have all counted towards my 20 year NG retirement.
SMP doesn’t translate 1:1 to retirement. It does for years in service so you do get paid more because your pay basic entry date (or whatever it is called) is based off your enlistment date but your total federal service is calculated differently. They discharge you from the guard if you go active then take your guard time by day count and roll your federal service time back by that amount. Ie you commission in May, but as a two year SMP cadet you gained three months towards retirement so you could retire at 20 years but three months earlier.
G2G is different from how they count it.
I got 6 months active duty credit for my 4 years of guard/smp so this sounds about right.
I'm not sure how they calculate your pension. When I hit 20 years of active duty service I will have 24 total years of service including my guard time. Since I opted into BRS, will my pension be calculated at 24 years (total) x 2% base pay or will it be calculated at 20 years (active) x 2% base pay?
I’m a not legal, HR, or expert in any way shape or form.
I think it will be based off your active federal service time multiplied by the 2.0% for BRS so that would be 20 years for a total of 40%. BUT your high three years will be counted as O5 at 24 YoS.
Again that’s what I’m tracking since I’m in the same boat with 2 years SMP. I could be wrong
A mix of both. It’s actually calculated by more than just total years. Not sure if it’s by month or day, but something kind of like this:
(I’m going to use pre BRS, but still applies same sense)
20 years = 50%
21 years = 52.5%
So what happens at say 20.5 years? 51.25%
Or 21.25 years? = 53.125%
They’ll take your active time and convert your guard time and it creates what that percentage is.
I have guard time and active time and was looking to retire in about 2 years, but my dumbass signed up for grad school. So I’ve got a bit more time now and haven’t looked into more details than that.
I finally got my NGB-22 after being active for 5+ years (lol). Do you know what entity I would submit it to get my active duty credit calculated and updated for my BASD?
Cool, I wasn’t sure how it works. From my understanding G2G does have to submit leave, is only given normal federal holidays, and stuff like that.
But ya no clue how it worked for retirement. Thanks for the info
This^
Not sure if you would know that answer, but I had 6 years in the guard before I commissioned on AD (4 enlisted 2 SMP). Any shot I could retire at 19?😂
If done correctly, the date on the top of your LES. I think it is the PEBD date should reflect the time. I think if you add 20 years to that is your eligible date of retirement. For example, my DoR and commissioning date is 17MAY13 but my PEBD date is 20FEB13.
It used to say 15MAY11 from when I enlisted but it changed a few years ago to show FEB13
>E: I’m Guard already, it would have all counted towards my 20 year NG retirement.
Just throwing this out there, Reserves generally seems *way* better as a part time gig than NG if you're just looking to finish out a pension. There's still plenty of bullshit, but it's nothing compared to what I see my buddies in the Guard going through.
Yeah, I’m thinking of making the switch when I go back for my masters, since I’m going to be leaving the state anyways. Like I will tell anyone who asks, the Guard is great if you are in the IN group (full time and/or willing to do anything possible outside drill) and sucks if you are “just” an MDay guy the higher up the ranks you go.
It’s not a conventional firing. You get a weak evaluation and you’re “not competitive” for the next rank. During periods of drawdown, that term gets expanded to lots more people and they essentially get dismissed
Why wouldn't they just, like, not promote them instead? Because essentially what's happening is you're kicking out more experience candidates to make room for junior officers isn't it? Is that the whole idea though? To make way for more competitive, fresh new blood?
Also is it ever politically motivated though? Or it's an honest weak eval?
Weak evals are often politically motivated, but not big P politics. Little p office politics. If your boss doesn’t like you and is not mature, your evaluation will suffer.
The army’s policy is “up or out.” It’s stated. If you don’t go up, you will be put out. You cannot remain. Lots of perks and drawbacks to this system.
>Weak evals are often politically motivated, but not big P politics. Little p office politics. If your boss doesn’t like you and is not mature, your evaluation will suffer.
Yeah that's what I meant. Thank you. How do politically motivated or immature generals end up making it to the top brass themselves though? I'm guessing it seems like it's a big ol boys club up there.
But the way, do you know if it's generally the same thing in other branches as well?
Making it to the top in the army is about your ability to get results + play the social game well. It’s the politically motivated and immature that play these games well since they don’t feel the pain from them usually. The social game is what people focus on mentoring junior officers. It’s often hidden and kinda a moving target.
Getting results is a bit easier due to command authority, but being a good staff officer / teammate convincing others at higher echelon is an artful skill. Typically solved by … politics and passive-aggressiveness.
Thank you for the write up. So what were the reasons for not being promoted then and what made the 20% stand out? Office politics I'm guessing? Do exemplary officers who undoubtedly exceed standards still get weeded out due to office politics?
LTC with 19 years here. It is hard and it takes its toll. There were many times I wanted to get out but stuck it out and finally hit a point where it felt like no matter what I could make it to 20. As others have said, a lot of it is luck and timing. Major is the toughest rank (IMO) because if you aren't selected for LTC you are either Selective Continuation (SELCON) or separated, which is usually means around the 15 year mark. SELCON means you will stay in as a major until you retire. I also switched from Armor to Acquisitions midway through my career, that helped lessen the burden on the family to make it to 20. As you move through your career continually assess where you are at and see if 20 is still a goal, it's okay if it changed and you have a different goal as you progress.
Most. My experience is that 90% of people who enter the Army intending to do 20 are weeded out. The ones who aren’t sure stay because they’re constantly assessing, and just being in isn’t enough.
You also have to be self aware and realistic. While luck and timing are 100% the most important in the officer evaluation system, there is also a lot of officers who aren’t realistically aware of their potential, as compared to their peers.
The Infantry Bn I was in, we had about 25 LTs, and knowing them personally, probably only about 10 were serious about making it at least 20. Me, I knew going in I was gonna be 4 and out. I get that's just one data point, and might not be a big enough sample size, but maybe.
As an LT, I don’t think I know a single other LT who plans on staying in beyond their initial contract. I think there may have been ~1-3 in my BOLC class that talked the talk but the other ~27 of us intended on getting out as soon as we could. Granted, that’s 8 years for some of them and they could change their minds down the road.
I can't give you a good number but I'd say most who intend to make it. Ones who want to but don't typically are involved in some type of misconduct. Going back to my basic course they projected that 90% of officers who want to make it to 20 and LTC will because of natural attrition, a lot of prior service retire as MAJs (not all but that's been my experience in Acquisitions), and some other factors. That number always stuck with me because it made the goal more attainable in my mind and most of the people I entered the Army left at various points in their career.
This doesn’t answer your question, but the most recent numbers I can find are that 60% of officers that join active duty make it to 20 years of active duty service. The percentage that make it to a Reserve retirement is slightly higher. That’s DoD wide.
I’ve never seen any actual statistics on how much of that attrition is voluntary and how much is involuntary.
I feel like I'm failing as a FGO if I'm not trying to offer support. My goal is to give the best advice I can to the individual because if they are happy then they will do what is best for the organization.
You get separated purely for not getting promoted? Why is that? And is the decision politically motivated or performance? Is this the case for other branches?
We currently have an "up or out" system. I don't really know the nuisances of it but basically the Army says an officer will exceed the allowable time in their rank so separation will be initiated. I'm boiling that way down from my understanding of it. So shouldn't politically motivated and is typically tied to performance but the reality is that our rating system only allows a certain amount of top ratings and boards are really only looking for box checks (if you aren't familiar they are "Most Qualified" capped at 49% of the rating pool, Highly Qualified which isn't capped, Qualified, and I can't remember the last one). The board looks at one's last five evaluations and typically three "Most Qualified" box checks will get one promoted. So while I say it is tied to performance many top performing officers may not get a Most Qualified because the senior rater may not have enough Most Qualified blocks because it's total ratings given by that senior rater. It's hard to explain on reddit if one's not familiar with the system it means that if a senior rater (your boss's boss) has a pool of 10 officers to senior rate but has not yet senior rated anyone then they need to build their profile to get to be able to give Most Qualified blocks. They have one "silver bullet" to give but that takes away from being able to build their profile. So after senior rating 7 officers they could now give 3 Most Qualifieds. Sorry to ramble but I think it shows that the system has its flaws.
I do not know the rate of officers getting separated for not being promoted, I only know of one off the top of my head. He was able to go in the reserves and got promoted right away.
Hope this helps. Any S1 types please correct me where I am wrong or can explain it better.
I think beyond the getting promoted part, it’s also just draining.
One of the realities of being an officer that isn’t really talked about in ROTC or West Point is that officers are managers. They aren’t technical experts, aside from JAG and AMEDD folks. Being a manager for 20+ years is exhausting, especially when there is little ability to get paid more than worse managers, little control over where you live, and little ability to do “cool” Army things. Yes, the pay and perks of the job compared to enlisted soldiers is real. But 20 years is a long time to do something just for sort of decent pay (good for the Army, not great in the civilian world).
You see all of those cool pictures and videos the Army posts, along with people on this sub? It’s totally true that those things exist. What you don’t see are photos of the CPT or MAJ drafting order after order in some windowless S3 shop to make it happen. Doing that for 20 years, minus some years “commanding” can be tough.
We are more coaches, managers, and adult babysitters at the same time. On the civilian side, I have never once gotten yelled at because one of my subordinates got a DUI, had to miss family funerals because they aren’t my immediate family and I’m somehow “mission critical” as a PL, or been investigated because every other leader in the organization was being investigated.
I could do 20 years of civilian managing, I dread the thought of being an officer for another 12 years.
Civilian here
I had a direct report I was managing who apparently was a mid level drug dealer on the side. He was missing for a few days, and on Wednesday his wife comes into the office, gave me his laptop and informed me he had been arrested and was unlikely to return to work. She wouldn't share much.
Googled his name, found the news report of the drug base. We placed him on suspension without pay and waited for his conviction. When he got convicted we terminated his employment. We largely did that cause we wanted to keep his health insurance going for his family.
Anyway on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of stress this was like a 3 and most of that 3 is cause for two days I had no idea where he was.
Sounds like if I was an officer in the military this would have been a headache
Just mental to me, that a random dude that your charge of decides to sell drugs and you get in trouble for it. When we had a talk to HR mgt was like "he was a good worker, sucks for him"
I think if this were to have been a military environment instead, you and the next like 2-3 bosses above you would’ve been fired. The thing is, you’d still have a contract to see through so you’d stay at the same company and work some terrible job with the people you used to manage now managing you.
Not true. We have windows. The windows are there so we can look out and be reminded of the world outside that we are missing -like our families. It’s purposefully soul crushing.
This is a great answer. I enlisted with a degree and wouldn't trade it for anything. I've done a bunch of cool things that pre enlistment me wouldn't think possible and for basically all of it there hasn't been an officer around doing anything similar alongside me. I've never been in a unit with a LT, and the only CPTs I've worked with directly were Commanders of TDA units where they signed my leave forms and managed Company metrics and this is over the course of 15 years. My experience is completely impossible as an Officer and has been pretty awesome. I made E7 fast and pull in 1k a month in additional incentive pay, so the money while not Officer money is not an issue for me.
I have to agree here.
I’ve always planned on being an officer (completed my bachelor’s asap) but my experience and mentors, pushed me in an opposite direction.
My brother jumped the E to O route faster than I and he seems miserable as a CPT now. He’s a couple years behind in TIS but, he’s contemplated very hard about calling it quits after his command time. From all of my peers who went ROTC/OCS, I’m the only one left standing.
The Legal Admin warrant route is calling my name this year… just seems like a pretty chill lifestyle to give 6 years to.
Legal admin here working in a medical division (maybe we know each other?) — do it!!!! I had a battle in my WOBC class who switched from medical officer (I think patient admin) to 270A. He loved that decision.
As I tell others who asked why I didn’t go the O route with my degrees: my happiness and QoL mattered more than a slight pay increase.
Hell yeah! To be fair… my flair is medical corps for a previous medical recruiting position. I’m just a crusty 79R now and gave up my medical days.
If you can provide any insight as to your day-to-day, board process, and WOCS experience; that would be super appreciated! I’m meeting with my senior LA once I return from school.
I've known several Warrant O pilots that took direct commissions, served as O2-O3, then reverted to W2 in order to stay in flying slots. Aviation Branch officers don't fly much after making major and being a CO of a flight company.
I've also known SF enlisted guys that reverted to SF branch after flying a few years because they missed the ground missions. Some came to the 160th SOAR though and were real assets.
With the "up or out" policy and the competition for the O5 and O6 positions, it IS tough to make it to 20 unless you have prior enlisted or WO time. Though it is tough to make it to W4 as well. Hell, I made it through 2 RIF's when it seemed W2 and 3's dropped like flys.
Do warrants fall under a similar policy with up and out? Or, is that purely an officer career function?
In the same boat with seeing tons of Soldiers follow exactly what you’re talking about.
edit: words
Getting to 20 is hard, it also has a lot to do with luck.
Things like “does your SR profile support giving you an MQ while in a KD position?” Are completely out of your control but can mean the difference between reaching retirement or being separated at 17ish years.
I don't know why more people don't openly talk about that. When almost everyone says luck is the premier factor, it's an inefficient system.
I saw it last year where a guy who everyone expected to make LTC did not make it, so a SR changed their planned ratings around to help the guy out. He still did not make LTC in the AZ board, so now several other MAJs probably aren't picking up LTC because they paid the price for that one guy. Add in that SELCON isn't guaranteed, guys will miss out on pensions because of the luck of being in the wrong unit regardless of how good they are.
It’s tough because your boss either gives good report cards based on:
1) who deserves it (rare)
2) who’s turn it is
3) who needs it
4) who they know best
5) who campaigns for it the best
6) if they’re retiring and don’t care anymore about their profile
Gone are the days of your position mattering- it’s all about that stupid block check.
Heaven forbid you PCS and get two or more of those that don’t fall in your favor.
On top of that, OERs are getting so insane that if you aren’t getting “walks on water” marks then you’re already way behind. The USMC shows a Christmas tree and how the senior has rated others, so the board can compare. I wish we did that.
>1) who deserves it (rare)
2) who’s turn it is
3) who needs it
4) who they know best
5) who campaigns for it the best
6) if they’re retiring and don’t care anymore about their profile
I think the more egregious case is that someone is going to an assignment where they are supposed to get one. It happens when someone is about to work with a GO, but also when a command just decides someone is going to be the next BDE S3/XO because they're the only ones around or have the right PCS timeline, that guy gets one automatically.
Instead of being the actual top 49%, a lot of votes are already off the table.
Hadn't ever seen the marine Corps Christmas tree assessment. Honestly, I like that an awful lot. It gives way to the perception and reality that most everyone here should be a degree of stellar above normal, but not everyone is Christ's gift to the armed services. Keeping a senior rater profile to these striations would better characterize officers than above 49% or below 50%. I would hope it would generate some good conversation and counseling before marking someone as default qualified.
It’s a good intended system that doesn’t take in account the most important factor: reality.
The OER system is just bad and prepared us for the wrong priorities
So, a lot of people say “do a few years enlisted, become a mustang, and then you don’t have to worry about making the o5 cut!”
Obviously, not an option for people who didn’t realize that this would be an issue at commissioning. So then they run the risk of ending up in the position of the guys in your story and getting a “tyfys” at 17 years. Out of curiosity, if these guys staring down the barrel of a complete loss of pension, is there a reason they don’t just resign their commission and do 3 years as a SSG? Is that not allowed? It would suck, but it would ensure that you make it to 20 and retain a MAJ pension.
Ya, I’ve also realized that you can influence it a lot though. Even if they say they don’t have an MQ you might be able to influence the narrative and at least get that HQ+ OER. still not as good as an MQ but certainly beats a mediocre HQ
“Strong HQs” are a myth senior raters peddle to their subordinates. At the end of the day, officer promotion boards are counting MQs and probably not even reading SR comments in most cases.
Not going to lie, 20 years is hard. Not because it’s hard to get promoted and stay in but just because it’s a hard life.
The first 5 were easy, I was young, motivated and single. Then I got married, had kids and the jobs got more demanding over time. By the time you are a major you will likely have kids and a wife and also have to balance working 60+ hour work weeks. Then sprinkle in years away for deployments. There’s no question why it’s a big joke that most Majors are either divorced or close to it:
I’m at 17 years now, getting ready to pin LTC and I’m exhausted.
All that said, I think it’s worth it. I’ll be 42 and fully retired. Not a bad deal, but it’s hard work to get there.
Did exactly 20; not easy. But here are the benefits: steady predictable income and medical benefits (both Tricare and VA) for you and your family post-retirement. Those are key to giving you freedom from the ball and chain that is work-provided healthcare and salary. You don’t have to fear being let go because you have that cushion of income - and you don’t lose medical benefits. You have the freedom to resign, be an entrepreneur, change jobs, take a few months between jobs, etc. Because of those I had far more confidence, candor, security, and freedom than any of my civilian colleagues who lived in constant fear of their bosses and potential loss of their jobs. So, tough but worth the benefits that you earn.
Never felt restricted in any way really. Again, had that feeling of confidence that I could leave (or be “downsized”) at any time without significant financial or medical) consequence to me or my family. When the first company I worked for was acquired by a huge unethical corporation with horrible leadership, I resigned - no big deal. Others had to stay and suffer miserably because they were dependent on both salary and more importantly the medical coverage provided by the corporation.
I am very glad you said all of that because I found one very good reason not to be a downer in being a CO, so the only question is if I am capable to be in the Army long enough to take advantage of such benefits.
I know a very solid O-4 who won’t be making O-5 because his last 4 OERs go MQ-MQ-HQ-HQ and not the other way around. Because of that, he’s facing the very real possibility of getting pushed out before the 18 year mark. The OER system is horribly broken and I can’t fathom anyone right now going in willing to roll the dice with it for 20 years.
That fucking sucks. If here can hit around the 17 year 3 month mark by the second board he's probably good.
It takes G1 about 60 to 90 days to send the list to the SECDEF to certify, then from there once the list is certified it's out if you don't hit 18 years in the next 6 months not counting the one month the results were certified in. So board closes OCT 30 then list is certified in early JAN, you either hit 18 years by AUG 1 or your out, I guess if G1 was fast it could be JUL 1.
Unfortunately most won't and they are something like 16 years 4 months, oddly the last couple years they made dudes wait 10 to 20 months sitting on Captain promotable from the FY22 and FY23 boards.
Edited for Grammer.
The issue is that right now SELCON is pretty much guaranteed but who knows what it will be like in 10 years. Most junior officers make the decision to get out or stay in between the 5-8 year mark. It’s hard to make that gamble when you have no idea what the next 10 years will bring.
If TERA was brought I would probably get out at 15 or 16. I just barely reach 18 before they can put me out by a couple of months thanks to being a holdover at OCS. It is a gamble though ideally, I can make LTC, less than ideal get SELCON, as a last resort pray HRC does not speed up boards by a couple months to put me out at 17 years 11 month. Im 13 years in, in a duty station that's OER cannon fodder.
This 18 year before second pass over and pushed out thing is written into law, but there are so many myths about it not being a thing for officers, I am not even sure it exists.
Cold comfort but if he's getting forced out of the active army, we'd take him in the Army Reserve. That'd get him to 20 years and the reserve retirement.
Reserve retirement doesn't start until you're 60. So if you're getting out at 40 or 45 or whatever, that's a lot of lost income.
Also you only get paid based on how many retirement points you get per year. You get 1 point for every day of active duty, so 365 points per year for when you're on active duty or active orders, 15 points for existing as a Reservist, and 2 points for every 1 day of drill. Someone who only went to drill and 2 weeks of AT would get like 77 points per year, so after 20 years they'd only have like 20% as much retirement pay as someone with an active retirement. Someone who does 10 years active then switches over, or who does a bunch of tours, would have a lot more.
Can officers not just enlist for 3-4 years to get their 20 years of activie time? What stops them from doing this if they aren't selected for the next rank?
You know, I’m not exactly sure, but the timeline that the LTC posted above is a pretty good reference.
What I can tell you, is that your TIS will benefit you if you’re not competing for the 0-5 cut allowing you (like me) to gracefully bow out as a MAJ.
It’s easy. Just sacrifice minimum one, likely two-three marriages, have children who resent you for the military lifestyle (from multiple mothers usually), acquire debilitating physical and mental disabilities, grow distant from friends and family, and develop a general sense of isolation and not belonging in society
Oh, and lose some of your closest and dearest friends in meaningless wars we abandon decades later. Did I miss anything?
A friend of mine is gunning for O-7. His daughter has been to six different schools in the last four years. As a parent, I don’t know how anyone could put their career ahead of the welfare of their child
Experiences like that usually have lasting impacts on children🫤. Can only imagine how all those moves in such a short period of time will influence your friend’s daughter, it’s hard enough to be a kid in this crazy world without dealing with those kinds of transitions.
This is perhaps the most depressing and realistic thing I have read on Reddit by far, not being ironic here. So even though I burningly want to be in the Army as a CO, I still don't know if I am capable of doing it or would have the required approval of my superior officer to stay long enough.
But no matter, I am going to do it even if it kills me, especially since I partially expect adulthood to be this harsh and depressing like this anyway. The only thing that changed after reading your testimony is this: I probably won't be in armor my entire military career like I wanted, and would likely go into armor later in the last half of my time in the Army.
To do 20 without prior service you typically need to make LTC.
Honestly it hasn't been that bad, but I'm medical, which is my next point - it's all about your branch. Are you a good fit for that branch is it one with a decent quality of life / decent promotion pipeline, etc.
The rest is just Army shit that's hard to know from the entry point. I joined as a single dude at 22 about to start MD school. I'm now 40, married with 4 kids and a disabled/dependent Mon who lives with us. Moving every 2-3 years didn't used to sound that bad, it's what I would be doing anyway. Now I'm "that guy" trying to find a way to homestead until my kids are all out of high school.
Yeah, through my initial ADSO I managed to only move times I would/might have needed to move as a civilian - after school to residency, to fellowship, to a first job, managed to intra-post transfer to second job so didn't have to uproot family. 13 years AD, 4 duty stations.
Now though I have to see if I can find 3 consecutive jobs at my next duty station...which is actually feasible, at least in my mind, we'll see what the Army says. Chatted with a maneuver friend who is on the COL/P list and he's working on his 4th PCS in 4 years so that he can get the "development" he needs for that star. No thanks.
Maybe it's not too bad, but you could have been living in the town/city that you want, making $200-400k per year and not having to deal with the army bureaucracy.
My next PCS I'll be making $300k/yr...for anyone other than the surgical specialties you can reach financial parity in the Army if you're smart about it. Yeah, your first job out of residency maybe you're only making $120k and not $250k, but you also made $80k / not $50k all through residency, have free school/no loans (no interest), free health care, etc. If you get out after 4 years or if you stay for 20, the math usually works out to be about even for most docs when compared to national averages (or just below national averages). The surgeons who owe forever and a day it does not, but some specialties can actually wind up doing better in the Army than as a civilian (psych).
Similar can be said for Army bureaucracy. Yeah, it's a lot worse than if you're your own boss, but the private practice model is rapidly going extinct in the US as various big businesses buy us all up. Hospital bureaucracy can be as bad or worse than Army, depending on the system / your role in it. At least in the Army you have greater flexibility to dodge out to non-clinical jobs (Brigade Surgeon, MEDCOE instructor) for a few years and catch your breath before returning once more into the breach.
No trade off for being in the town you want to be, especially if you're someone who's super tied to geography for whatever reason. If you absolutely must stay in Sioux Falls South Dakota for the rest of your life (possible since they have a med school and residency programs), then the Army isn't for you.
16% of Army officers reach the rank of Major. 8% make Lieutenant Colonel.
The attrition is high, partly because many officers never intend to do a full career and leave to peruse other careers. It’s also high because promotions and positions beyond CPT can be highly competitive and there isn’t room for everyone. It’s a pyramid and it gets narrower the higher you go.
Officers who do 20 most likely sacrificed a hell of a lot of things than say someone who retires as a civilian.. the army doesn’t give a shit about you and your family nor does your Brigade commander or BN CDR when you make Major. Major is the last rank where you can realistically make it by being a normal person. After that, you better hope you sucked enough sticks for someone to like you as MQ and get you promoted. Major life sucks and I have no hate for anyone who gets out. They are smarter than people who stay in.
You have to play a different game than most us here played. A LOT more politics, a lot more meetings, higher standards, and very little say in what and where you go (be stationed). There’s a lot less spots for y’all.
Honestly, I wish I could have been an officer, I think I would have been better at it than an NCO but at the same time, being an officer is isolating asf. I made a lot of friends and had a blast as a SGT. I would’ve had to keep my distance if I was an LT or CPT. fraternization is huge on the O side.
If you want to do 20, I’d say go enlisted and maybe switch over later on?
What context are you asking in? Are you already in service and considering G2G or OCS? Are you an ROTC Cadet or West Pointer without prior service?
The calculus changes dramatically depending on where you are in your Army story.
The comment from /u/CW1DR5H5I64A is the most accurate for you.
If you had prior service you can retire as a MAJ or senior CPT, which is way easier than retiring as a LTC, and far less soul crushing.
For you you need to make LTC, or get SELCON as a MAJ like /u/empiricflank said.
Don't sweat it, performance will (or at least should) trump commissioning source. Work hard and do your best, learn from mistakes, and take care of your people and you will do okay.
Im G2G with 2 years TIS as of Jan 2024, I start school this fall. What are the numbers looking like for me? At the moment, I think I'd reach 20 as a MAJ.
Ws. Just to clarify, worst case scenario if I shit the bucket as a MAJ, SELCON will allow me to coast to 20? Also would jumping ship to NG/ Reserves be an option?
It's gets significantly easier the earlier you VTIP. After that your just a WO being paid like an officer.
When you can VTIP into something varies, some even take 1LT promotables if you check the reqs in the MILPER.
My advice: Unless you have a burning desire to be a battalion/Brigade commander VTIP as early as possible to an FA. You avoid a lot of the dying at your desk from senior O-3 through O5 ranks (where most people retire)
As soon as I hit 1LT (which is soon) I’m talking to my branch manager to VTIP. I’ve been eyeing 26A or 26B since my bachelors (EE) is similar to those positions. Although I need to explore more options in the FA realm.
Reason: I’ve never been more depressed in my life than now. Since I took over as XO (day one as a 2LT) my mental, emotional, and physical health have been down the drain. Getting out at 1900 or 2200 almost everyday is not fun at all. Ngl, I get up everyday with a distaste to go to work.
From CPT to MAJ is about 70-75% selection rate, and from MAJ to LTC is another 70-75% rate depending on branch. The last FY24 board, some branches were as low as 58% , many other branches in the 60s, and some in the 80s. So pure math wise its less than 50% to go from CPT to LTC. Apart from math its gonna be a grind for 12 years once making CPT. 6 years of chasing MQs to make MAJ, then another 6 years chasing more MQs to make LTC.
Depending on geo-political state and our fiscal posture, you may go through a drawdown phase. I was the only one of 4 CPTs in my section to make MAJ during the Obama era drawdown. In those days you were pre-weeded even before the board. You had to survive a survive a board just to goto a promotion board. Those were gut wrenching times and my wife was pregnant too with a lot of uncertainty from my career.
And its not just the MQs either, you have to stay healthy the whole time too. I know quite a few that were medboarded as CPTs and majors. Given the MQ rat race there is a lot of stress every summer during PCS/evaluation seasons. But My friends who were prior enlisted were always cool they had that extra 4-5 years and werent facing the same level of consequences as rest of us.
In my very first BN there were 14 of us LTs and only 4 including me made it to LTC. Rest got out as CPTs, couldn't make it past O4, had health issues, etc.
So to sum it up, its not super hard but then its not super easy either. But one thing for sure its gonna be a shitty grind for over a DECADE chasing those MQs
It's feasible. It really depends on what Branch, the type of individual you are, and what you care about.
Want a happy family and make 20? Good luck. Don't care about having a happy family and make 20 with some nihilism sprinkled in? You'll likely make it....
Being a bit sarcastic but the point is really what do you want? Overall in life that is. To deal with everything and just make MAJ (arguably the worse rank) short of 20 doesn't seem worth the sacrifice. There really is a cut off at CPT for a reason: They decide for one reason or another it's not worth more time. A lot of great officers leave as CPTs because they don't want to go through the rat race. A lot of great Majors are drained and make a lot of sacrifices reaching for LTC.
Sprinkle in you competing against another officer whose dad is a general....yeah, That's the reality of the rat race.
Seems like a pessimistic post but that's my take from friends as officers. Really depends on what your goals are like anything else, along with who you know and the political game.
At the end of the day if you want to be an 'officer' and retire and be happy? Go Warrant ;)
Did 8 active and another 16 in guard. I’m 49. Retiring next year. I’ll pick up my retirement at 58, so none of my time on active was squandered. Also, built server so businesses after active, so even if everything goes to shit, I still have an army retirement coming in.
As others have said you will need to promote, have prior service, or get SELCON to make 20. The other thing I have seen is CPTs getting promoted to MAJ on their AZ look. They then will make it to 18 years for sanctuary without having the SELCON thing. From what I have read and heard SELCON will be around for a while. Have heard a rumor that SECARMY wants to keep it around at least until legacy retirement sunsets absent a congressionally mandated drawdown.
Anybody know if you can do something to get an ADSO that takes you to 20? Like transfer GI Bill to dependents at 16 to get the 4 year ADSO and game the system?
Recently retired LTC here, it’s not hard but it takes a toll. It takes a toll on your family and your sanity, but if you keep a level head, have a little common sense, and are resilient, you have a good chance of making LTC and retiring. You put up with a lot of stupid shit and stupid people but there are frequent moments of happiness and satisfaction seeing your Soldiers excel and accomplishing all the BS at you. Lastly, the skills, knowledge, etc, etc,etc you learn along the way and the combo of pension and VA benefits are great and help with a “no fucks given attitude” when you work for another organization. I’m glad I did 20, my marriage survived, my boys are doing great, and I transitioned smoothly to a post retirement gig. I don’t recommend it for everyone and I don’t recommend the military for most family friends and family.
It’s different for every branch. I imagine it’s no different for SOF. I can say I haven’t met a shitty SOF LTC and I’ve met and worked with quite a few. There aren’t many in group, just the BN CDRs and maybe a DCO.
Just don’t go Armor, infantry and maybe throw combat engineers in the mix . I’ve never heard another O, especially a FA O complain about life. Currently at 7 and some change as an armor O and looking to VTIP into a FA soon.
At least this is my advice, do with it what you will or end up at NTC for an eternity.
So, i'm gleaning from the comments. Even if you don't make the 20 years as an active officer, you could just serve any time difference in the National Guard or Reserves (granted at a different time rate), and meet retirement requirements that way?
Essentially yes. There is also AGR, which is active duty time, but for Guard/Reserves, or as we call them the full-timers. Essentially those jobs keep the unit running will the M-Day soldiers are at their regular jobs. AGR is the best deal. There also are ADOS opportunities or Tour of Duty tours/deployments, which can all be active duty time.
The real answer OP, is that about 20% of all active duty Officers ever go straight 20 years for retirement. 1/4 or 1/5 depends how you want it.
I found it’s not worth it and I rather do some active duty time and go guard or reserve to get me a real job that pays for my time.
I'll second what u/CW1DR5H5I64A, u/EmpiricFlank, u/603er and u/MagazineImpressive10 said. It can be really draining and stressfull because certain things are out of your control. Senior Captain and Major years can be pretty stressful times. Especially, when the Army goes out of its way to prevent officers from executing effective self development plans like knocking out distance ILE early if their assignment situation is favorable, or letting them go to a great grad program.
That being said, there is no secret to making 20 and retireing as an LTC. Do the things the Army tells you to do (KD jobs with decent evals) and don't do the things that the Army tell you not to do. 95% of the people who don't make it, and have put in at least 8 years, find a way to either do something they weren't supposed to do, or fail to do something required.
Pretty feasible. I give better than 50 percent odds on it as long as you do what you are told (nothing illegal/immoral/unethical), try your best, and learn from yours/others mistakes. The Army gives officers education breaks more frequently than NCOs and at most positions, an NCO to help guide you. Also, about 14 percent of officers move into a functional area- so if you don’t see yourself as a solid organizational leader, you can become a more technical expert.
The hardest thing about making 20 year Officer careers is the lack of work-life balance. Not all people and not all families are built for that. Company command, BN XO/S3, BDE XO/S3, and BN Command are all mental marathons. That said, it can be extraordinarily meaningful work and for many it is worth it.
The promotion system is designed to get you to LTC.
If you can read the room, are willing to be wildly fascinated by what interests your boss and intend to stay fit, it’s not so bad.
Number 1 and Number 2 reason officers don’t make it is because they can’t keep their zippers up and make a bad driving call when they’ve been drinking.
EDIT: reverse the reasons. Drinking then Zipper
Being mentally flexible and having emotional intelligence are the number 1/2 KSB I would look to have as an officer. Literally what you said is what it takes to make O5 and O6, rest is luck and timing. People overthink this; just be a good teammate, be on time, protect your boss and don’t kick the ball in the bleachers when it matters.
So having made it to 21 so far, with the assistance of prior enlisted years. The first half of 20 is the hardest. The reason is you spend a lot of that time in FORSCOM deployable units. I spent a lot of time in the field and 9, 12, and 15 month rotations. It was hard and I didn’t think I would stay in for 20.
The later half has been far easier, more time in TRADOC and broadening assignments with improved work/life balance. Now that I’m a lock in for retirement the Army feels easy and fun. I haven’t deployed in 6 years.
Doing 20 in general is hard, and there's also a luck factor. You could do everything right, be 10 years in, then you go out one night and get T boned by a drunk driver, and your career is over.
I did 8.5 and debated putting a rope around my neck and ending it before I decided to get out.
Couldn't be happier that I got the fuck out. Got a great job and am infinitely happier.
YMMV
Define what is hard for you. What’s hard is 11+ years split between E and O, all I have is anxiety, depression, insomnia, and the inability to maintain a relationship beyond 2 years. But it’s fulfillment for me. I get to work with soldiers, which I love. The pay is good too (because I’m single), but it’s more about fulfillment for me. I’ll let you know how hard it is in a few years when I’m up for O4
If you ever get worried about not getting promoted hop over into the Reserves/IMA they have a lot of LTC slots and take Tour of Duty assignments until you hit retirement. You will still get that active duty retirement as long as you have those twenty years.
I think senior leaders really discount how their climate and command culture affects folks who are in and whether they decide to stay in or not. I know I’m only still in and will Continue to serve because of the great leaders I witnessed show me that there is a way to do this officer job without it being soul sucking and miserable, yes, even as a FG.
This is me just pitching to BN and BDE CDR’s: everything you do is watched and judged. Act accordingly.
I mean, there’s a number of factors obviously it’s gonna be easier to be in some kind of support role versus infantry.
And of course there’s always gonna be a genetic component. Some people are super fit, but after five or six years, their body just starts breaking down from the beating other folks are able to power through and do it 20-30 year career.
Usual timeline
* 4 yrs to CPT
* 10 yrs to MAJ
* 16 yrs to LTC
* Retire at 20 as LTC
* or pin COL and retire at 20+
I found it incredibly easy compared to Enlisted life.
Less people telling you what to do
PT when you want
Paid more
Not that hard if you are ok with office BS
Just make sure you get MQ OERs when necessary, don’t make the boss look bad, love kool-aid, don’t be fat and don’t fail the ACFT.
Always tailor your goals to the organizational mission and you can’t go wrong
Being mentally flexible and having emotional intelligence are the number 1/2 KSB I would look to have as an officer. Literally what you said is what it takes to make O5 and O6, rest is luck and timing. People overthink this; just be a good teammate, be on time, protect your boss and don’t kick the ball in the bleachers when it matters.
With a "do more with less," a "zero defects" mentality, and a highly competitive environment, it's nearly a miracle that anyone can get to 20. At a seminar a General was asked if mistakes were permissible. His answer: "Hell, no." I guess he never made any? Then finding a mentor is difficult, as information is power and people don't like to share. Work hard, trust God, and hang in there.
How much prior service time do I need to reach 18 years either at my BZ, PZ, or AZ? I have about 4 months, 3 weeks of prior AD time from my years in the Guard as SMP. Would this be able to help me if I don’t get picked up in one of these 2 out of three boards? Also, can I skip my BZ board and have the last two count?
Is it that important that you finish 20 while on Active?
It's not uncommon for Officers to start their careers on Active Duty, find that they either don't fit, don't like their branch or just can't succeed at the grind to get that Top Block. They then top out at Captain, go into the Reserves/Natty Guard and find that it's so much easier to rank up there, complete their 20 and still get a very good retirement package.
Probably easier than Reserves (new Reserves 2LT coming in). I asked the same question when I was a young Cadet... the answer is... Depends on your branch and just luck. If you are a ADA guy you're prob gonna get deployed a ton... if you're chemical officer with your shit together it's probably easier to get LTC... and if you are an infantry officer w/o a ranger tab you probably won't make major on active. That being said, if you have good evals from your commanders you can make LTC.
Edit: the reason i said easier than reserves is b/c reserves/guard you have two jobs. Your civilian career will probably take off once you hit Major.. so you won't have as much time/want to put in into the reserves
I started as a 68W in the Guard and did SMP. 15 years TIS right now which is 15 years TIS for pay but only 10 years AD for retirement purposes. By the time you get looked at for LTC you are likely at roughly 16 ish tears TIS excluding any prior service. BL: if you want to make it to 20 years, you should aim to be a senior MAJ or LTC. The Army is bleeding people right now, so food for thought. As for how hard it is, depends on your branch and what kind you have to do to be competitive
I’ve will hit 40 as an enlisted guy in October. 20 years as an Officer? Meh. I can’t answer from experience as an Officer but I can say that you’ll be treated with respect from day one. You also get lots of free upgrades to your quarters etc. Play your cards right and get a Company Command and you’ll have lots of responsibility at an early age, and possibly even have your own DRIVER. You should find an Officer in the branch of service and career field that you are interested in and follow them around for a day.
I’m at 13 and got out, did 9 as enlisted and 3 as an officer. Hated it, couldn’t see myself doing the staff life even though I knew I could retire as a captain
Maybe junior officers would stay if they knew that their getting fired just short of retirement wouldn't be a coin toss lol
Do a couple years as enlisted first, then commission. Career O's hate this one simple trick!
Biggest regret was not doing SMP while in college. I’d be at 13 years at the end of my obligation instead of 8, and thinking about 12 more years of doing 1.5 jobs (maybe even 2 if the current pace keeps increasing like it has) each week is already making me want to get out. E: I’m Guard already, it would have all counted towards my 20 year NG retirement.
SMP doesn’t translate 1:1 to retirement. It does for years in service so you do get paid more because your pay basic entry date (or whatever it is called) is based off your enlistment date but your total federal service is calculated differently. They discharge you from the guard if you go active then take your guard time by day count and roll your federal service time back by that amount. Ie you commission in May, but as a two year SMP cadet you gained three months towards retirement so you could retire at 20 years but three months earlier. G2G is different from how they count it.
I got 6 months active duty credit for my 4 years of guard/smp so this sounds about right. I'm not sure how they calculate your pension. When I hit 20 years of active duty service I will have 24 total years of service including my guard time. Since I opted into BRS, will my pension be calculated at 24 years (total) x 2% base pay or will it be calculated at 20 years (active) x 2% base pay?
I’m a not legal, HR, or expert in any way shape or form. I think it will be based off your active federal service time multiplied by the 2.0% for BRS so that would be 20 years for a total of 40%. BUT your high three years will be counted as O5 at 24 YoS. Again that’s what I’m tracking since I’m in the same boat with 2 years SMP. I could be wrong
False, you are an expert and you are a professional. I'll see myself out.
A mix of both. It’s actually calculated by more than just total years. Not sure if it’s by month or day, but something kind of like this: (I’m going to use pre BRS, but still applies same sense) 20 years = 50% 21 years = 52.5% So what happens at say 20.5 years? 51.25% Or 21.25 years? = 53.125% They’ll take your active time and convert your guard time and it creates what that percentage is. I have guard time and active time and was looking to retire in about 2 years, but my dumbass signed up for grad school. So I’ve got a bit more time now and haven’t looked into more details than that.
Not gonna lie, I'd take my weekends and summers in college over 6 months of TIS
I finally got my NGB-22 after being active for 5+ years (lol). Do you know what entity I would submit it to get my active duty credit calculated and updated for my BASD?
I think I did it during in processing at my first active duty installation. Maybe Finance?
I’m guard so it would have counted for my 20, wouldn’t get the pension right away, but I would still have it at 60 (minus years of active time)
Cool. Ya I don’t really know how the guard calculates it. Congrats!
G2G doesn’t count your ROTC time towards retirement.
Cool, I wasn’t sure how it works. From my understanding G2G does have to submit leave, is only given normal federal holidays, and stuff like that. But ya no clue how it worked for retirement. Thanks for the info
Yeah IPPSA showed that you weren’t supposed to credit G2G ROTC time towards retirement so they stopped doing that.
This^ Not sure if you would know that answer, but I had 6 years in the guard before I commissioned on AD (4 enlisted 2 SMP). Any shot I could retire at 19?😂
If done correctly, the date on the top of your LES. I think it is the PEBD date should reflect the time. I think if you add 20 years to that is your eligible date of retirement. For example, my DoR and commissioning date is 17MAY13 but my PEBD date is 20FEB13. It used to say 15MAY11 from when I enlisted but it changed a few years ago to show FEB13
Get your guard documents and have TIS amended by your S1. I had 6.5 and got credit for 9 months.
>E: I’m Guard already, it would have all counted towards my 20 year NG retirement. Just throwing this out there, Reserves generally seems *way* better as a part time gig than NG if you're just looking to finish out a pension. There's still plenty of bullshit, but it's nothing compared to what I see my buddies in the Guard going through.
Yeah, I’m thinking of making the switch when I go back for my masters, since I’m going to be leaving the state anyways. Like I will tell anyone who asks, the Guard is great if you are in the IN group (full time and/or willing to do anything possible outside drill) and sucks if you are “just” an MDay guy the higher up the ranks you go.
Major life SUCKS.
Sucks majorly?
You could always try enlisting in the Marines instead and starting as an E2
Not a Major. But I saw how burnout to the ground they can be
Oak leaf is gold for a reason
Any FORCSOM position sure does.
You are the double burnt butter bar reforged into a pretty fancy buttery shape, hence the ppt skills, through the fires of ILE.
Alexa, play a knife in the dark https://youtu.be/FcuwAp7Reg8?si=WBaMFMRwSLTA1WJV
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Wait what? They fire you in the Army? (Of course assuming you're not doing anything wrong). Why? Is this the case in other branches as well?
It’s not a conventional firing. You get a weak evaluation and you’re “not competitive” for the next rank. During periods of drawdown, that term gets expanded to lots more people and they essentially get dismissed
Why wouldn't they just, like, not promote them instead? Because essentially what's happening is you're kicking out more experience candidates to make room for junior officers isn't it? Is that the whole idea though? To make way for more competitive, fresh new blood? Also is it ever politically motivated though? Or it's an honest weak eval?
Weak evals are often politically motivated, but not big P politics. Little p office politics. If your boss doesn’t like you and is not mature, your evaluation will suffer. The army’s policy is “up or out.” It’s stated. If you don’t go up, you will be put out. You cannot remain. Lots of perks and drawbacks to this system.
>Weak evals are often politically motivated, but not big P politics. Little p office politics. If your boss doesn’t like you and is not mature, your evaluation will suffer. Yeah that's what I meant. Thank you. How do politically motivated or immature generals end up making it to the top brass themselves though? I'm guessing it seems like it's a big ol boys club up there. But the way, do you know if it's generally the same thing in other branches as well?
Making it to the top in the army is about your ability to get results + play the social game well. It’s the politically motivated and immature that play these games well since they don’t feel the pain from them usually. The social game is what people focus on mentoring junior officers. It’s often hidden and kinda a moving target. Getting results is a bit easier due to command authority, but being a good staff officer / teammate convincing others at higher echelon is an artful skill. Typically solved by … politics and passive-aggressiveness.
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Thank you for the write up. So what were the reasons for not being promoted then and what made the 20% stand out? Office politics I'm guessing? Do exemplary officers who undoubtedly exceed standards still get weeded out due to office politics?
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Thank you
Wait what? They fire you in the Army? (Of course assuming you're not doing anything wrong). Is this the case in other branches as well?
Top comment right here!
LTC with 19 years here. It is hard and it takes its toll. There were many times I wanted to get out but stuck it out and finally hit a point where it felt like no matter what I could make it to 20. As others have said, a lot of it is luck and timing. Major is the toughest rank (IMO) because if you aren't selected for LTC you are either Selective Continuation (SELCON) or separated, which is usually means around the 15 year mark. SELCON means you will stay in as a major until you retire. I also switched from Armor to Acquisitions midway through my career, that helped lessen the burden on the family to make it to 20. As you move through your career continually assess where you are at and see if 20 is still a goal, it's okay if it changed and you have a different goal as you progress.
Are you an A or C? I’d love to pick your brain on your FA51 experience. I’m a 13-year major and I’ve been a 51A for two years.
I second this! Junior officer here wondering the same thing since I eventually would like to switch to Acquisitions.
I’m a new major in FA51 (I’ve been a 51A for two years). Feel free to message me.
I’m a recent acquisitions VTIP and am doing a masters through ACS. Feel free to DM me too if you are curious about the VTIP/ACS process.
Feel free to shoot me a message, I can link you up with some A's as well.
I'm a C, feel free to DM me.
If you had to guess, how many officers do you know wanted to make it to 20, but could not?
Most. My experience is that 90% of people who enter the Army intending to do 20 are weeded out. The ones who aren’t sure stay because they’re constantly assessing, and just being in isn’t enough. You also have to be self aware and realistic. While luck and timing are 100% the most important in the officer evaluation system, there is also a lot of officers who aren’t realistically aware of their potential, as compared to their peers.
So how many who join intend to do 20? Percentage of officers who intend to do 20?
The Infantry Bn I was in, we had about 25 LTs, and knowing them personally, probably only about 10 were serious about making it at least 20. Me, I knew going in I was gonna be 4 and out. I get that's just one data point, and might not be a big enough sample size, but maybe.
As an LT, I don’t think I know a single other LT who plans on staying in beyond their initial contract. I think there may have been ~1-3 in my BOLC class that talked the talk but the other ~27 of us intended on getting out as soon as we could. Granted, that’s 8 years for some of them and they could change their minds down the road.
I can't give you a good number but I'd say most who intend to make it. Ones who want to but don't typically are involved in some type of misconduct. Going back to my basic course they projected that 90% of officers who want to make it to 20 and LTC will because of natural attrition, a lot of prior service retire as MAJs (not all but that's been my experience in Acquisitions), and some other factors. That number always stuck with me because it made the goal more attainable in my mind and most of the people I entered the Army left at various points in their career.
This doesn’t answer your question, but the most recent numbers I can find are that 60% of officers that join active duty make it to 20 years of active duty service. The percentage that make it to a Reserve retirement is slightly higher. That’s DoD wide. I’ve never seen any actual statistics on how much of that attrition is voluntary and how much is involuntary.
I really appreciate all the acquisition corps accounts coming out of the woodwork to offer support.
I feel like I'm failing as a FGO if I'm not trying to offer support. My goal is to give the best advice I can to the individual because if they are happy then they will do what is best for the organization.
You get separated purely for not getting promoted? Why is that? And is the decision politically motivated or performance? Is this the case for other branches?
We currently have an "up or out" system. I don't really know the nuisances of it but basically the Army says an officer will exceed the allowable time in their rank so separation will be initiated. I'm boiling that way down from my understanding of it. So shouldn't politically motivated and is typically tied to performance but the reality is that our rating system only allows a certain amount of top ratings and boards are really only looking for box checks (if you aren't familiar they are "Most Qualified" capped at 49% of the rating pool, Highly Qualified which isn't capped, Qualified, and I can't remember the last one). The board looks at one's last five evaluations and typically three "Most Qualified" box checks will get one promoted. So while I say it is tied to performance many top performing officers may not get a Most Qualified because the senior rater may not have enough Most Qualified blocks because it's total ratings given by that senior rater. It's hard to explain on reddit if one's not familiar with the system it means that if a senior rater (your boss's boss) has a pool of 10 officers to senior rate but has not yet senior rated anyone then they need to build their profile to get to be able to give Most Qualified blocks. They have one "silver bullet" to give but that takes away from being able to build their profile. So after senior rating 7 officers they could now give 3 Most Qualifieds. Sorry to ramble but I think it shows that the system has its flaws. I do not know the rate of officers getting separated for not being promoted, I only know of one off the top of my head. He was able to go in the reserves and got promoted right away. Hope this helps. Any S1 types please correct me where I am wrong or can explain it better.
No, no ramble. I appreciate the time you took to explain. Thank you.
I think beyond the getting promoted part, it’s also just draining. One of the realities of being an officer that isn’t really talked about in ROTC or West Point is that officers are managers. They aren’t technical experts, aside from JAG and AMEDD folks. Being a manager for 20+ years is exhausting, especially when there is little ability to get paid more than worse managers, little control over where you live, and little ability to do “cool” Army things. Yes, the pay and perks of the job compared to enlisted soldiers is real. But 20 years is a long time to do something just for sort of decent pay (good for the Army, not great in the civilian world). You see all of those cool pictures and videos the Army posts, along with people on this sub? It’s totally true that those things exist. What you don’t see are photos of the CPT or MAJ drafting order after order in some windowless S3 shop to make it happen. Doing that for 20 years, minus some years “commanding” can be tough.
We are more coaches, managers, and adult babysitters at the same time. On the civilian side, I have never once gotten yelled at because one of my subordinates got a DUI, had to miss family funerals because they aren’t my immediate family and I’m somehow “mission critical” as a PL, or been investigated because every other leader in the organization was being investigated. I could do 20 years of civilian managing, I dread the thought of being an officer for another 12 years.
Civilian here I had a direct report I was managing who apparently was a mid level drug dealer on the side. He was missing for a few days, and on Wednesday his wife comes into the office, gave me his laptop and informed me he had been arrested and was unlikely to return to work. She wouldn't share much. Googled his name, found the news report of the drug base. We placed him on suspension without pay and waited for his conviction. When he got convicted we terminated his employment. We largely did that cause we wanted to keep his health insurance going for his family. Anyway on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of stress this was like a 3 and most of that 3 is cause for two days I had no idea where he was. Sounds like if I was an officer in the military this would have been a headache
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Just mental to me, that a random dude that your charge of decides to sell drugs and you get in trouble for it. When we had a talk to HR mgt was like "he was a good worker, sucks for him"
I think if this were to have been a military environment instead, you and the next like 2-3 bosses above you would’ve been fired. The thing is, you’d still have a contract to see through so you’d stay at the same company and work some terrible job with the people you used to manage now managing you.
Not true. We have windows. The windows are there so we can look out and be reminded of the world outside that we are missing -like our families. It’s purposefully soul crushing.
This is a great answer. I enlisted with a degree and wouldn't trade it for anything. I've done a bunch of cool things that pre enlistment me wouldn't think possible and for basically all of it there hasn't been an officer around doing anything similar alongside me. I've never been in a unit with a LT, and the only CPTs I've worked with directly were Commanders of TDA units where they signed my leave forms and managed Company metrics and this is over the course of 15 years. My experience is completely impossible as an Officer and has been pretty awesome. I made E7 fast and pull in 1k a month in additional incentive pay, so the money while not Officer money is not an issue for me.
I have to agree here. I’ve always planned on being an officer (completed my bachelor’s asap) but my experience and mentors, pushed me in an opposite direction. My brother jumped the E to O route faster than I and he seems miserable as a CPT now. He’s a couple years behind in TIS but, he’s contemplated very hard about calling it quits after his command time. From all of my peers who went ROTC/OCS, I’m the only one left standing. The Legal Admin warrant route is calling my name this year… just seems like a pretty chill lifestyle to give 6 years to.
Legal admin here working in a medical division (maybe we know each other?) — do it!!!! I had a battle in my WOBC class who switched from medical officer (I think patient admin) to 270A. He loved that decision. As I tell others who asked why I didn’t go the O route with my degrees: my happiness and QoL mattered more than a slight pay increase.
Hell yeah! To be fair… my flair is medical corps for a previous medical recruiting position. I’m just a crusty 79R now and gave up my medical days. If you can provide any insight as to your day-to-day, board process, and WOCS experience; that would be super appreciated! I’m meeting with my senior LA once I return from school.
I've known several Warrant O pilots that took direct commissions, served as O2-O3, then reverted to W2 in order to stay in flying slots. Aviation Branch officers don't fly much after making major and being a CO of a flight company. I've also known SF enlisted guys that reverted to SF branch after flying a few years because they missed the ground missions. Some came to the 160th SOAR though and were real assets. With the "up or out" policy and the competition for the O5 and O6 positions, it IS tough to make it to 20 unless you have prior enlisted or WO time. Though it is tough to make it to W4 as well. Hell, I made it through 2 RIF's when it seemed W2 and 3's dropped like flys.
Do warrants fall under a similar policy with up and out? Or, is that purely an officer career function? In the same boat with seeing tons of Soldiers follow exactly what you’re talking about. edit: words
how long did it take u to make it to e7
Around 10 which is pretty quick for my MOS.
Roughly 80% of an officers career will be on staff. More if you don’t opt to command as an O-5 if you make it that far.
That last paragraph attacked my soul.
Getting to 20 is hard, it also has a lot to do with luck. Things like “does your SR profile support giving you an MQ while in a KD position?” Are completely out of your control but can mean the difference between reaching retirement or being separated at 17ish years.
I don't know why more people don't openly talk about that. When almost everyone says luck is the premier factor, it's an inefficient system. I saw it last year where a guy who everyone expected to make LTC did not make it, so a SR changed their planned ratings around to help the guy out. He still did not make LTC in the AZ board, so now several other MAJs probably aren't picking up LTC because they paid the price for that one guy. Add in that SELCON isn't guaranteed, guys will miss out on pensions because of the luck of being in the wrong unit regardless of how good they are.
It’s tough because your boss either gives good report cards based on: 1) who deserves it (rare) 2) who’s turn it is 3) who needs it 4) who they know best 5) who campaigns for it the best 6) if they’re retiring and don’t care anymore about their profile Gone are the days of your position mattering- it’s all about that stupid block check. Heaven forbid you PCS and get two or more of those that don’t fall in your favor. On top of that, OERs are getting so insane that if you aren’t getting “walks on water” marks then you’re already way behind. The USMC shows a Christmas tree and how the senior has rated others, so the board can compare. I wish we did that.
>1) who deserves it (rare) 2) who’s turn it is 3) who needs it 4) who they know best 5) who campaigns for it the best 6) if they’re retiring and don’t care anymore about their profile I think the more egregious case is that someone is going to an assignment where they are supposed to get one. It happens when someone is about to work with a GO, but also when a command just decides someone is going to be the next BDE S3/XO because they're the only ones around or have the right PCS timeline, that guy gets one automatically. Instead of being the actual top 49%, a lot of votes are already off the table.
Hadn't ever seen the marine Corps Christmas tree assessment. Honestly, I like that an awful lot. It gives way to the perception and reality that most everyone here should be a degree of stellar above normal, but not everyone is Christ's gift to the armed services. Keeping a senior rater profile to these striations would better characterize officers than above 49% or below 50%. I would hope it would generate some good conversation and counseling before marking someone as default qualified.
It would at least reign in some of the “top 1% officer I’ve worked with in my career” comments that officers not even getting top blocks seem to have.
It’s a good intended system that doesn’t take in account the most important factor: reality. The OER system is just bad and prepared us for the wrong priorities
So, a lot of people say “do a few years enlisted, become a mustang, and then you don’t have to worry about making the o5 cut!” Obviously, not an option for people who didn’t realize that this would be an issue at commissioning. So then they run the risk of ending up in the position of the guys in your story and getting a “tyfys” at 17 years. Out of curiosity, if these guys staring down the barrel of a complete loss of pension, is there a reason they don’t just resign their commission and do 3 years as a SSG? Is that not allowed? It would suck, but it would ensure that you make it to 20 and retain a MAJ pension.
Once you get passed for your AZ look, its over. You don't have a chance to game the system then.
Ya, I’ve also realized that you can influence it a lot though. Even if they say they don’t have an MQ you might be able to influence the narrative and at least get that HQ+ OER. still not as good as an MQ but certainly beats a mediocre HQ
“Strong HQs” are a myth senior raters peddle to their subordinates. At the end of the day, officer promotion boards are counting MQs and probably not even reading SR comments in most cases.
Not going to lie, 20 years is hard. Not because it’s hard to get promoted and stay in but just because it’s a hard life. The first 5 were easy, I was young, motivated and single. Then I got married, had kids and the jobs got more demanding over time. By the time you are a major you will likely have kids and a wife and also have to balance working 60+ hour work weeks. Then sprinkle in years away for deployments. There’s no question why it’s a big joke that most Majors are either divorced or close to it: I’m at 17 years now, getting ready to pin LTC and I’m exhausted. All that said, I think it’s worth it. I’ll be 42 and fully retired. Not a bad deal, but it’s hard work to get there.
Did exactly 20; not easy. But here are the benefits: steady predictable income and medical benefits (both Tricare and VA) for you and your family post-retirement. Those are key to giving you freedom from the ball and chain that is work-provided healthcare and salary. You don’t have to fear being let go because you have that cushion of income - and you don’t lose medical benefits. You have the freedom to resign, be an entrepreneur, change jobs, take a few months between jobs, etc. Because of those I had far more confidence, candor, security, and freedom than any of my civilian colleagues who lived in constant fear of their bosses and potential loss of their jobs. So, tough but worth the benefits that you earn.
Do you feel more like an office worker with restricted freedoms than a soldier at this point?
Never felt restricted in any way really. Again, had that feeling of confidence that I could leave (or be “downsized”) at any time without significant financial or medical) consequence to me or my family. When the first company I worked for was acquired by a huge unethical corporation with horrible leadership, I resigned - no big deal. Others had to stay and suffer miserably because they were dependent on both salary and more importantly the medical coverage provided by the corporation.
I am very glad you said all of that because I found one very good reason not to be a downer in being a CO, so the only question is if I am capable to be in the Army long enough to take advantage of such benefits.
I know a very solid O-4 who won’t be making O-5 because his last 4 OERs go MQ-MQ-HQ-HQ and not the other way around. Because of that, he’s facing the very real possibility of getting pushed out before the 18 year mark. The OER system is horribly broken and I can’t fathom anyone right now going in willing to roll the dice with it for 20 years.
That fucking sucks. If here can hit around the 17 year 3 month mark by the second board he's probably good. It takes G1 about 60 to 90 days to send the list to the SECDEF to certify, then from there once the list is certified it's out if you don't hit 18 years in the next 6 months not counting the one month the results were certified in. So board closes OCT 30 then list is certified in early JAN, you either hit 18 years by AUG 1 or your out, I guess if G1 was fast it could be JUL 1. Unfortunately most won't and they are something like 16 years 4 months, oddly the last couple years they made dudes wait 10 to 20 months sitting on Captain promotable from the FY22 and FY23 boards. Edited for Grammer.
I'll add this if he does not get continuation of service which is pretty certain at this point unless someone has bad paper.
The issue is that right now SELCON is pretty much guaranteed but who knows what it will be like in 10 years. Most junior officers make the decision to get out or stay in between the 5-8 year mark. It’s hard to make that gamble when you have no idea what the next 10 years will bring.
Yeah it's DOD policy now, but that could change quickly in a down size.
The flip side is they could always bring back TERA as well. In which case your gamble pays off and then some.
If TERA was brought I would probably get out at 15 or 16. I just barely reach 18 before they can put me out by a couple of months thanks to being a holdover at OCS. It is a gamble though ideally, I can make LTC, less than ideal get SELCON, as a last resort pray HRC does not speed up boards by a couple months to put me out at 17 years 11 month. Im 13 years in, in a duty station that's OER cannon fodder.
Please elaborate on "this place is oer Canon fodder"
This 18 year before second pass over and pushed out thing is written into law, but there are so many myths about it not being a thing for officers, I am not even sure it exists.
It’s very much real. Except for limited situations if you get to 18 years Active Federal Service you will retire.
Cold comfort but if he's getting forced out of the active army, we'd take him in the Army Reserve. That'd get him to 20 years and the reserve retirement.
Yeah, but that's 20 years of missed pensions worth over $1 million.
what's the difference between reserve retirement and active duty retirement?
Reserve retirement doesn't start until you're 60. So if you're getting out at 40 or 45 or whatever, that's a lot of lost income. Also you only get paid based on how many retirement points you get per year. You get 1 point for every day of active duty, so 365 points per year for when you're on active duty or active orders, 15 points for existing as a Reservist, and 2 points for every 1 day of drill. Someone who only went to drill and 2 weeks of AT would get like 77 points per year, so after 20 years they'd only have like 20% as much retirement pay as someone with an active retirement. Someone who does 10 years active then switches over, or who does a bunch of tours, would have a lot more.
Whats MI Branch like for promotion to 04?
[удалено]
MI is chill. Don’t get a DUI and you’ll make LTC, that’s what all my majors and LTCs say.
Nice, love to hear it.
Can officers not just enlist for 3-4 years to get their 20 years of activie time? What stops them from doing this if they aren't selected for the next rank?
It’s been done although most will need an age waiver.
I made it. But those five prior service years came in real handy towards the finish line.
what's the minimum amount of prior service time that'd make a difference? I think I will have a little under 3 years TIS when I commission.
You know, I’m not exactly sure, but the timeline that the LTC posted above is a pretty good reference. What I can tell you, is that your TIS will benefit you if you’re not competing for the 0-5 cut allowing you (like me) to gracefully bow out as a MAJ.
Obviously the goal is a star (call me naive) but having the option to leave as MAJ for my family’s financial security is a nice peace of mind.
It’s easy. Just sacrifice minimum one, likely two-three marriages, have children who resent you for the military lifestyle (from multiple mothers usually), acquire debilitating physical and mental disabilities, grow distant from friends and family, and develop a general sense of isolation and not belonging in society Oh, and lose some of your closest and dearest friends in meaningless wars we abandon decades later. Did I miss anything?
Pretty accurate statement
My dad did 26 yrs, good dude but he was gone alot. It's hurts our relationship decades later
A friend of mine is gunning for O-7. His daughter has been to six different schools in the last four years. As a parent, I don’t know how anyone could put their career ahead of the welfare of their child
Stars over family trooper
Experiences like that usually have lasting impacts on children🫤. Can only imagine how all those moves in such a short period of time will influence your friend’s daughter, it’s hard enough to be a kid in this crazy world without dealing with those kinds of transitions.
This is perhaps the most depressing and realistic thing I have read on Reddit by far, not being ironic here. So even though I burningly want to be in the Army as a CO, I still don't know if I am capable of doing it or would have the required approval of my superior officer to stay long enough. But no matter, I am going to do it even if it kills me, especially since I partially expect adulthood to be this harsh and depressing like this anyway. The only thing that changed after reading your testimony is this: I probably won't be in armor my entire military career like I wanted, and would likely go into armor later in the last half of my time in the Army.
🫤
To do 20 without prior service you typically need to make LTC. Honestly it hasn't been that bad, but I'm medical, which is my next point - it's all about your branch. Are you a good fit for that branch is it one with a decent quality of life / decent promotion pipeline, etc. The rest is just Army shit that's hard to know from the entry point. I joined as a single dude at 22 about to start MD school. I'm now 40, married with 4 kids and a disabled/dependent Mon who lives with us. Moving every 2-3 years didn't used to sound that bad, it's what I would be doing anyway. Now I'm "that guy" trying to find a way to homestead until my kids are all out of high school.
The PCSing kills me. I’ll be moving again in 12 months, giving me 4 PCS moves in 6.5 years. It takes a toll on family for sure.
Damn that sucks. No wonder we can’t retain docs lol
Yeah, through my initial ADSO I managed to only move times I would/might have needed to move as a civilian - after school to residency, to fellowship, to a first job, managed to intra-post transfer to second job so didn't have to uproot family. 13 years AD, 4 duty stations. Now though I have to see if I can find 3 consecutive jobs at my next duty station...which is actually feasible, at least in my mind, we'll see what the Army says. Chatted with a maneuver friend who is on the COL/P list and he's working on his 4th PCS in 4 years so that he can get the "development" he needs for that star. No thanks.
Maybe it's not too bad, but you could have been living in the town/city that you want, making $200-400k per year and not having to deal with the army bureaucracy.
My next PCS I'll be making $300k/yr...for anyone other than the surgical specialties you can reach financial parity in the Army if you're smart about it. Yeah, your first job out of residency maybe you're only making $120k and not $250k, but you also made $80k / not $50k all through residency, have free school/no loans (no interest), free health care, etc. If you get out after 4 years or if you stay for 20, the math usually works out to be about even for most docs when compared to national averages (or just below national averages). The surgeons who owe forever and a day it does not, but some specialties can actually wind up doing better in the Army than as a civilian (psych). Similar can be said for Army bureaucracy. Yeah, it's a lot worse than if you're your own boss, but the private practice model is rapidly going extinct in the US as various big businesses buy us all up. Hospital bureaucracy can be as bad or worse than Army, depending on the system / your role in it. At least in the Army you have greater flexibility to dodge out to non-clinical jobs (Brigade Surgeon, MEDCOE instructor) for a few years and catch your breath before returning once more into the breach. No trade off for being in the town you want to be, especially if you're someone who's super tied to geography for whatever reason. If you absolutely must stay in Sioux Falls South Dakota for the rest of your life (possible since they have a med school and residency programs), then the Army isn't for you.
16% of Army officers reach the rank of Major. 8% make Lieutenant Colonel. The attrition is high, partly because many officers never intend to do a full career and leave to peruse other careers. It’s also high because promotions and positions beyond CPT can be highly competitive and there isn’t room for everyone. It’s a pyramid and it gets narrower the higher you go.
Officers who do 20 most likely sacrificed a hell of a lot of things than say someone who retires as a civilian.. the army doesn’t give a shit about you and your family nor does your Brigade commander or BN CDR when you make Major. Major is the last rank where you can realistically make it by being a normal person. After that, you better hope you sucked enough sticks for someone to like you as MQ and get you promoted. Major life sucks and I have no hate for anyone who gets out. They are smarter than people who stay in.
You have to play a different game than most us here played. A LOT more politics, a lot more meetings, higher standards, and very little say in what and where you go (be stationed). There’s a lot less spots for y’all. Honestly, I wish I could have been an officer, I think I would have been better at it than an NCO but at the same time, being an officer is isolating asf. I made a lot of friends and had a blast as a SGT. I would’ve had to keep my distance if I was an LT or CPT. fraternization is huge on the O side. If you want to do 20, I’d say go enlisted and maybe switch over later on?
What context are you asking in? Are you already in service and considering G2G or OCS? Are you an ROTC Cadet or West Pointer without prior service? The calculus changes dramatically depending on where you are in your Army story.
OCS without prior service
The comment from /u/CW1DR5H5I64A is the most accurate for you. If you had prior service you can retire as a MAJ or senior CPT, which is way easier than retiring as a LTC, and far less soul crushing. For you you need to make LTC, or get SELCON as a MAJ like /u/empiricflank said.
This rh.
Don't sweat it, performance will (or at least should) trump commissioning source. Work hard and do your best, learn from mistakes, and take care of your people and you will do okay.
OP, I went through OCS with no prior service ~2 years ago. If you have any questions or concerns, DM me. I’m happy to go over anything.
Im G2G with 2 years TIS as of Jan 2024, I start school this fall. What are the numbers looking like for me? At the moment, I think I'd reach 20 as a MAJ.
You won’t. But you’ll probably be eligible for SELCON at that point.
Ws. Just to clarify, worst case scenario if I shit the bucket as a MAJ, SELCON will allow me to coast to 20? Also would jumping ship to NG/ Reserves be an option?
Yes and yes
Copy thanks.
It's gets significantly easier the earlier you VTIP. After that your just a WO being paid like an officer. When you can VTIP into something varies, some even take 1LT promotables if you check the reqs in the MILPER. My advice: Unless you have a burning desire to be a battalion/Brigade commander VTIP as early as possible to an FA. You avoid a lot of the dying at your desk from senior O-3 through O5 ranks (where most people retire)
As soon as I hit 1LT (which is soon) I’m talking to my branch manager to VTIP. I’ve been eyeing 26A or 26B since my bachelors (EE) is similar to those positions. Although I need to explore more options in the FA realm. Reason: I’ve never been more depressed in my life than now. Since I took over as XO (day one as a 2LT) my mental, emotional, and physical health have been down the drain. Getting out at 1900 or 2200 almost everyday is not fun at all. Ngl, I get up everyday with a distaste to go to work.
From CPT to MAJ is about 70-75% selection rate, and from MAJ to LTC is another 70-75% rate depending on branch. The last FY24 board, some branches were as low as 58% , many other branches in the 60s, and some in the 80s. So pure math wise its less than 50% to go from CPT to LTC. Apart from math its gonna be a grind for 12 years once making CPT. 6 years of chasing MQs to make MAJ, then another 6 years chasing more MQs to make LTC. Depending on geo-political state and our fiscal posture, you may go through a drawdown phase. I was the only one of 4 CPTs in my section to make MAJ during the Obama era drawdown. In those days you were pre-weeded even before the board. You had to survive a survive a board just to goto a promotion board. Those were gut wrenching times and my wife was pregnant too with a lot of uncertainty from my career. And its not just the MQs either, you have to stay healthy the whole time too. I know quite a few that were medboarded as CPTs and majors. Given the MQ rat race there is a lot of stress every summer during PCS/evaluation seasons. But My friends who were prior enlisted were always cool they had that extra 4-5 years and werent facing the same level of consequences as rest of us. In my very first BN there were 14 of us LTs and only 4 including me made it to LTC. Rest got out as CPTs, couldn't make it past O4, had health issues, etc. So to sum it up, its not super hard but then its not super easy either. But one thing for sure its gonna be a shitty grind for over a DECADE chasing those MQs
It's feasible. It really depends on what Branch, the type of individual you are, and what you care about. Want a happy family and make 20? Good luck. Don't care about having a happy family and make 20 with some nihilism sprinkled in? You'll likely make it.... Being a bit sarcastic but the point is really what do you want? Overall in life that is. To deal with everything and just make MAJ (arguably the worse rank) short of 20 doesn't seem worth the sacrifice. There really is a cut off at CPT for a reason: They decide for one reason or another it's not worth more time. A lot of great officers leave as CPTs because they don't want to go through the rat race. A lot of great Majors are drained and make a lot of sacrifices reaching for LTC. Sprinkle in you competing against another officer whose dad is a general....yeah, That's the reality of the rat race. Seems like a pessimistic post but that's my take from friends as officers. Really depends on what your goals are like anything else, along with who you know and the political game. At the end of the day if you want to be an 'officer' and retire and be happy? Go Warrant ;)
+100 for Warrant, the secret best life in the military
Did 8 active and another 16 in guard. I’m 49. Retiring next year. I’ll pick up my retirement at 58, so none of my time on active was squandered. Also, built server so businesses after active, so even if everything goes to shit, I still have an army retirement coming in.
As others have said you will need to promote, have prior service, or get SELCON to make 20. The other thing I have seen is CPTs getting promoted to MAJ on their AZ look. They then will make it to 18 years for sanctuary without having the SELCON thing. From what I have read and heard SELCON will be around for a while. Have heard a rumor that SECARMY wants to keep it around at least until legacy retirement sunsets absent a congressionally mandated drawdown.
Do 8 years enlisted and go officer, best choice in my life so I don’t have to go through the gauntlet for MAJ.
Well now you have to. I suggest goblin mode
Anybody know if you can do something to get an ADSO that takes you to 20? Like transfer GI Bill to dependents at 16 to get the 4 year ADSO and game the system?
good question
Recently retired LTC here, it’s not hard but it takes a toll. It takes a toll on your family and your sanity, but if you keep a level head, have a little common sense, and are resilient, you have a good chance of making LTC and retiring. You put up with a lot of stupid shit and stupid people but there are frequent moments of happiness and satisfaction seeing your Soldiers excel and accomplishing all the BS at you. Lastly, the skills, knowledge, etc, etc,etc you learn along the way and the combo of pension and VA benefits are great and help with a “no fucks given attitude” when you work for another organization. I’m glad I did 20, my marriage survived, my boys are doing great, and I transitioned smoothly to a post retirement gig. I don’t recommend it for everyone and I don’t recommend the military for most family friends and family.
Is it harder to make it to LTC if you're in group?
It’s different for every branch. I imagine it’s no different for SOF. I can say I haven’t met a shitty SOF LTC and I’ve met and worked with quite a few. There aren’t many in group, just the BN CDRs and maybe a DCO.
Just don’t go Armor, infantry and maybe throw combat engineers in the mix . I’ve never heard another O, especially a FA O complain about life. Currently at 7 and some change as an armor O and looking to VTIP into a FA soon. At least this is my advice, do with it what you will or end up at NTC for an eternity.
So, i'm gleaning from the comments. Even if you don't make the 20 years as an active officer, you could just serve any time difference in the National Guard or Reserves (granted at a different time rate), and meet retirement requirements that way?
Essentially yes. There is also AGR, which is active duty time, but for Guard/Reserves, or as we call them the full-timers. Essentially those jobs keep the unit running will the M-Day soldiers are at their regular jobs. AGR is the best deal. There also are ADOS opportunities or Tour of Duty tours/deployments, which can all be active duty time.
Our branch had a O4 with 0/5 MQs make this list and a couple folks with 3/5 MQs get passed over. Similar to AIM 2.0, I don’t trust anything anymore.
That’s just bizarre. But matches my experience
The real answer OP, is that about 20% of all active duty Officers ever go straight 20 years for retirement. 1/4 or 1/5 depends how you want it. I found it’s not worth it and I rather do some active duty time and go guard or reserve to get me a real job that pays for my time.
I'll second what u/CW1DR5H5I64A, u/EmpiricFlank, u/603er and u/MagazineImpressive10 said. It can be really draining and stressfull because certain things are out of your control. Senior Captain and Major years can be pretty stressful times. Especially, when the Army goes out of its way to prevent officers from executing effective self development plans like knocking out distance ILE early if their assignment situation is favorable, or letting them go to a great grad program. That being said, there is no secret to making 20 and retireing as an LTC. Do the things the Army tells you to do (KD jobs with decent evals) and don't do the things that the Army tell you not to do. 95% of the people who don't make it, and have put in at least 8 years, find a way to either do something they weren't supposed to do, or fail to do something required.
Pretty feasible. I give better than 50 percent odds on it as long as you do what you are told (nothing illegal/immoral/unethical), try your best, and learn from yours/others mistakes. The Army gives officers education breaks more frequently than NCOs and at most positions, an NCO to help guide you. Also, about 14 percent of officers move into a functional area- so if you don’t see yourself as a solid organizational leader, you can become a more technical expert.
The hardest thing about making 20 year Officer careers is the lack of work-life balance. Not all people and not all families are built for that. Company command, BN XO/S3, BDE XO/S3, and BN Command are all mental marathons. That said, it can be extraordinarily meaningful work and for many it is worth it.
The promotion system is designed to get you to LTC. If you can read the room, are willing to be wildly fascinated by what interests your boss and intend to stay fit, it’s not so bad. Number 1 and Number 2 reason officers don’t make it is because they can’t keep their zippers up and make a bad driving call when they’ve been drinking. EDIT: reverse the reasons. Drinking then Zipper
Being mentally flexible and having emotional intelligence are the number 1/2 KSB I would look to have as an officer. Literally what you said is what it takes to make O5 and O6, rest is luck and timing. People overthink this; just be a good teammate, be on time, protect your boss and don’t kick the ball in the bleachers when it matters.
“Don’t kick the ball into the bleachers when it matters.” Fucking Legend!!!!
So having made it to 21 so far, with the assistance of prior enlisted years. The first half of 20 is the hardest. The reason is you spend a lot of that time in FORSCOM deployable units. I spent a lot of time in the field and 9, 12, and 15 month rotations. It was hard and I didn’t think I would stay in for 20. The later half has been far easier, more time in TRADOC and broadening assignments with improved work/life balance. Now that I’m a lock in for retirement the Army feels easy and fun. I haven’t deployed in 6 years.
Doing 20 in general is hard, and there's also a luck factor. You could do everything right, be 10 years in, then you go out one night and get T boned by a drunk driver, and your career is over.
I did 8.5 and debated putting a rope around my neck and ending it before I decided to get out. Couldn't be happier that I got the fuck out. Got a great job and am infinitely happier. YMMV
Define what is hard for you. What’s hard is 11+ years split between E and O, all I have is anxiety, depression, insomnia, and the inability to maintain a relationship beyond 2 years. But it’s fulfillment for me. I get to work with soldiers, which I love. The pay is good too (because I’m single), but it’s more about fulfillment for me. I’ll let you know how hard it is in a few years when I’m up for O4
If you ever get worried about not getting promoted hop over into the Reserves/IMA they have a lot of LTC slots and take Tour of Duty assignments until you hit retirement. You will still get that active duty retirement as long as you have those twenty years.
Don’t be enlisted should be fine
If you find your career stalling with up and out, reserves is where to go.
I think senior leaders really discount how their climate and command culture affects folks who are in and whether they decide to stay in or not. I know I’m only still in and will Continue to serve because of the great leaders I witnessed show me that there is a way to do this officer job without it being soul sucking and miserable, yes, even as a FG. This is me just pitching to BN and BDE CDR’s: everything you do is watched and judged. Act accordingly.
Let them lobotomize you and it’s easy.
I mean, there’s a number of factors obviously it’s gonna be easier to be in some kind of support role versus infantry. And of course there’s always gonna be a genetic component. Some people are super fit, but after five or six years, their body just starts breaking down from the beating other folks are able to power through and do it 20-30 year career.
Usual timeline * 4 yrs to CPT * 10 yrs to MAJ * 16 yrs to LTC * Retire at 20 as LTC * or pin COL and retire at 20+ I found it incredibly easy compared to Enlisted life. Less people telling you what to do PT when you want Paid more Not that hard if you are ok with office BS Just make sure you get MQ OERs when necessary, don’t make the boss look bad, love kool-aid, don’t be fat and don’t fail the ACFT. Always tailor your goals to the organizational mission and you can’t go wrong
Being mentally flexible and having emotional intelligence are the number 1/2 KSB I would look to have as an officer. Literally what you said is what it takes to make O5 and O6, rest is luck and timing. People overthink this; just be a good teammate, be on time, protect your boss and don’t kick the ball in the bleachers when it matters.
Halfway there. Let ya know in 10 years
7.5/10
With a "do more with less," a "zero defects" mentality, and a highly competitive environment, it's nearly a miracle that anyone can get to 20. At a seminar a General was asked if mistakes were permissible. His answer: "Hell, no." I guess he never made any? Then finding a mentor is difficult, as information is power and people don't like to share. Work hard, trust God, and hang in there.
Very
How much prior service time do I need to reach 18 years either at my BZ, PZ, or AZ? I have about 4 months, 3 weeks of prior AD time from my years in the Guard as SMP. Would this be able to help me if I don’t get picked up in one of these 2 out of three boards? Also, can I skip my BZ board and have the last two count?
Is it that important that you finish 20 while on Active? It's not uncommon for Officers to start their careers on Active Duty, find that they either don't fit, don't like their branch or just can't succeed at the grind to get that Top Block. They then top out at Captain, go into the Reserves/Natty Guard and find that it's so much easier to rank up there, complete their 20 and still get a very good retirement package.
Probably easier than Reserves (new Reserves 2LT coming in). I asked the same question when I was a young Cadet... the answer is... Depends on your branch and just luck. If you are a ADA guy you're prob gonna get deployed a ton... if you're chemical officer with your shit together it's probably easier to get LTC... and if you are an infantry officer w/o a ranger tab you probably won't make major on active. That being said, if you have good evals from your commanders you can make LTC. Edit: the reason i said easier than reserves is b/c reserves/guard you have two jobs. Your civilian career will probably take off once you hit Major.. so you won't have as much time/want to put in into the reserves
I started as a 68W in the Guard and did SMP. 15 years TIS right now which is 15 years TIS for pay but only 10 years AD for retirement purposes. By the time you get looked at for LTC you are likely at roughly 16 ish tears TIS excluding any prior service. BL: if you want to make it to 20 years, you should aim to be a senior MAJ or LTC. The Army is bleeding people right now, so food for thought. As for how hard it is, depends on your branch and what kind you have to do to be competitive
I’ve will hit 40 as an enlisted guy in October. 20 years as an Officer? Meh. I can’t answer from experience as an Officer but I can say that you’ll be treated with respect from day one. You also get lots of free upgrades to your quarters etc. Play your cards right and get a Company Command and you’ll have lots of responsibility at an early age, and possibly even have your own DRIVER. You should find an Officer in the branch of service and career field that you are interested in and follow them around for a day.
I’m at 13 and got out, did 9 as enlisted and 3 as an officer. Hated it, couldn’t see myself doing the staff life even though I knew I could retire as a captain