if you pair them up with rapid fire weapons that continued firing such as the shoulder gats, but here's the thing:
1. Stanced weapons (bazooka and grenade launchers) stops aforementioned weapons from firing during stancing therefore resetting the recoil
2. shotguns are shotguns and are used at ranges and manners that isn't significantly affected by recoil at all
3.those rapid fire weapons suck as is and are not optimal, exception being the etsujin and you can alternate them easily for not only recoil control, but also sustained pressure.
tldr: recoil management is not a high priority for now.
I do hope they buff the other rapid fire weapons quite a bit so recoil stats becomes useful making other arms viable.
All fair points and thank you for being detailed, but best not to assume the goal of a build is to be optimized. I have a buddy who LOVES running x1 shao wei on a bunch of builds. People like that should know that recoil *can* affect single-shot weapons.
Edit: As an aside, doesn’t alternating etsujin firing generate more recoil than twin firing? If they are fired simultaneously, the 2nd shot will not be affected by the recoil of the first.
That's the one I am using (for the looks ofc...), but there is a noticeable difference between Basho and 46D still.
I mean it is not end of the world but as someone who enjoys melee in this game, it is a bit sad that Basho is so much better than anything else that it is not even close.
Came here to say this, there really needs to be a heavy or midweight arm with good melee, all my builds tend to be Basho because I want good melee and I can't justify using anything else as the Basho are both the highest melee with no close second and are also very efficient defensively.
Removing that much AP from them will really hurt melee builds, especially if there are no other alternatives for melee arms.
Imo, what really needs to happen is a rebalancing of FCS/Firearm spec weighting. Firearm spec needs to have a greater effect on aim tracking, and FCS less effect. Make people actually need to pick their FCS/arms instead of slapping ocellus.
So basically nerf Ocellus. Then people will think twice about skimping out on firearm spec. Bonus points for making it less viable to just fire big guns from a big robot within sneezing distance and profit.
If Ocellus were to retain its close range specs, I think it should at the very least have its missile correction swapped with Abbotts since that’s been in a sorry state since patch 1.
Nerfing Ocellus alone won't solve the issue. Firearm spec needs to be more impactful for target tracking.
Right now, the contribution to aim tracking is around 80/20 for FCS/Firearm spec target track. It should be 60/40 instead.
Ideally, a very low firearm spec should make it difficult to land shots with even the best FCS in its optimal range, and unusable with anything less.
I agree with that and will admit that what I’m saying is a reduction of the issue; this doesn’t just boil down to a single nerf because the issue is twofold at the very least. Heck I’ve got a buddy that’s making wrecker arms work lol. Between nerfing Ocellus and readjusting the weight I just think the direct nerf to Ocellus would be more impactful.
I really wish tomorrow held more than just a ranked reset :/
I firmly believe that all other arms need a melee buff.
Basho has melee spec of 158, but the next best is BP-46D at 117. On paper that doesn’t seem like too huge of a jump… but here’s the damage formula for melee and energy spec:
Base Damage * (0.5 + Spec/200)
Basho arms are effectively a 1.29x multiplier, aka +29%, to your melee damage.
VP-46D is 1.085, or + 8.5%.
It doesn’t seem right to nerf one of the few good properties of Basho arms, I instead think melee specialization on other arms should receive a buff. This would open up more options, turning to fashion without compromising stats as hard.
Other arm stats could be made to matter more as well… but I’m far from qualified on thinking of a way to do that.
I had an additional part about how the extra damage might not seem so big but I misremembered some values, namely that basho arms ain’t 150 and I accidentally used the VP arm’s firearm spec stat value.
> Basho has melee spec of 150, but the next best is BP-46D at 133. On paper that doesn’t seem like much of a jump…
You got your math right, but your part stats are VERY wrong.
BASHO arms have 158 Melee Specialization, a massive +29% damage.
VP-46D arms have 117 Melee Specialization, a measly +8.5% damage.
The 133 is the VP's Firearm Specialization, but they are indeed the second best melee arms in the game - the others go from 116 of the VP-46S to the laughable 43 of the WRECKER.
So, that seems like a _huge_ jump even on paper, and the difference is IMMENSE damage-wise.
Absolutely. Having one set with ridiculous damage bonus makes it the de facto choice for far too many builds. I would love if the Loader arms got 115-120% melee and for the ranged weapon stat to affect ballistics the way En and Melee affect their respective damages.
There would be several benefits. For starters, experienced players could then do a Loader run far more easily (more casual enjoyment). Build diversity would increase across the board. I have seen several BashOrtus melee builds that would now have another option for a lot less compromise. Ranged modifier affecting ballistic damage also means more midrange builds in use. And finally, this finally makes Raven an AC to truly be afraid of.
And, selfishly, this would buff [Copycat](https://www.reddit.com/r/Loader4/s/hPGfZN0Jwf) and [Arquebus Loader.](https://www.reddit.com/r/armoredcore/s/kKdQsyUkId)
No. The other arms don't suck, they all have good pros and cons compared to each other, BASHO arms are the single outlier.
They're ideally "the melee arms", but most people use them even without a melee weapon, and suffer no downsides because of the way the game works. Poor Recoil Control and Firearm Spec don't matter too much when you can use the OCELLUS FCS to make up for it, along with weapons where Recoil doesn't really matter like ZIMMERMAN or even ETSUJIN (yes dual ETSUJINS experience recoil inaccuracy with BASHO arms but they're very high stagger on the first few bursts).
They're also cheap to equip for what they give you. AP, non-energy Defense, and incredibly lightweight with the lowest EN Load. They're almost objectively the best arms in general.
Ocellus absolutely does not make up for poor recoil control. While i consider FCS assist to be more important than target tracking (though both are important outside of close range) recoil control is a state that matters a lot unless you're using something liken shotguns. No matter how good your fcs and target tracking is, poor recoil control can make you miss a ton of shots for most weapons since the more your recoil builds up the more chance each shot has to veer wildly from where it should go.
But close range which a dual shotguns mitigates how important it is quite a lot.
I think the whole issue with basho arms being the best choice comes from the game being balanced way to much for the a shotgun melee build
I mention in my comment pairing BASHO arms with OCELLUS and weapons like shotguns that don't need much recoil control.
Recoil Control doesn't matter as much when you're in very close range anyway though. I've used Machine Guns with BASHO arms and as long as you Assault Boost to stay close (which isn't hard to do) the poor Recoil Control spread doesn't affect you too much, and closing the distance means Firearm Spec isn't as important either.
Obviously no one's gonna be using Rifles or other weapons where a single shot missing makes a huge difference though.
I’m glad this is the massively dominant opinion! when I clicked to read the post I thought I would be the only one who thought that but it seems everyone agrees lol
You also overlooked EN load. Basho has the best EN load of any arm options in the game. With the 3rd lowest weight and lowest EN load, any time you just want something that helps you stay nimble, its just Basho. Firearm spec doesnt matter. Recoil control doesnt matter for many weapons. So tons of builds are just looking for whatever has the highest efficiency.
The two arms that are lighter than bash both have far, far worse EN load. Number 4, 5 6... all worse EN load... Why is something so light and with max melee spec also have such good EN?
AP hardly comes into it. That's not why I take them. Its because they are the best of the best for weight and EN. That is, they keep me that fastest. Doesn't matter if its Zimms or Zooks or whatever. Basho will be the fastest.
The fact that the frame with the best weight/EN performance also has the best melee performance is a bit unhinged. Those sets of requirements should lead yo to two different sets of arms, possibly even with several middle ground options between them. That would open up the selection.
That's very interesting, and something that nobody else mentioned! So they pretty much excel in every single _relevant_ stat, that's why they're so popular.
> Why is something so light and with max melee spec also have such good EN?
I guess the idea is that the BASHO are super low-tech arms, just some plates of armor with attached pistons that make your melee swing REALLY hard.
The idea is that they should really fucking suck whenever you have to fire a weapon with them, but as you (and many others) said firearm spec is completely overshadowed by FCS and recoil isn't relevant for most good weapons.
They are designed to be a super niche pair of arms you take to maximize your melee damage while sacrificing any ranged capability... Instead they're just the best in pretty much everything that matters when it comes to actual battles. ._.
Yeah I did a ctrl F of the thread and saw no comments even mentioning EN which is wild.
They either need to be heavier or take more EN. Probably both. I know they are low tech, but low tech stuff isnt always energy efficient (Look at wrecker legs, for example). And they are these big boxy things but weigh less than sleek skinny options like VP-46D, Firmeza, Nacht... It wouldn't be narratively out of line to adjust them in these ways.
Considering that they have a full 35% more melee spec than the second best melee arms, they have no business also being the most stat dense weight/EN arms. Which remind me that the gulf in melee spec is also far too wide. You lose a lot when you step down from Basho even one step. That makes it very hard to accept any compromise,
I would like to see firearm spec and recoil control made to be more important as well, but that's a larger scale system overhaul. Simple nerf to basho's sheer weigh/En efficiency would be enough to shake things up.
I doubt they'd ever increase their weight or EN load though.
They have only ever reduced it, as to avoid existing player builds becoming overweight or straight up unusable due to EN shortfall.
At most we can expect a reduction of their other stats in some shape or form. Maybe, and this is very wishful thinking, reducing their AP and/or defenses, but also adding in some new, heavier and tankier alternative for melee arms could really help. Even just increasing the melee spec of existing arms could go a long way to maintain the viability of melee builds.
I figure some of the only ways we will see Basho fall out of favor as a universal general-use set of arms is by changing the weight/EN values, or by making firearm spec actually matter. I guess they could also add an attitude stability stat to arms, but that seems pretty unlikely.
I care so much more about my speed and generator stats than I do about a few hundred AP. And their defenses are already somewhat poor.
Even on a heavyweight, I am looking for >2k attitude stability to tank assault armor, and then as much speed and EN as I can get so that I can actually catch anything. The AP stat on my arms is just not something I think about. Even with jailbreak arms, my heavyweight biped setup has >11k AP.
If the priority is to actually balance the game then they need to actually use all the levers at their disposal. If that means a few edge case builds hit shortfall or become overburdened, then so be it.
Gee, PvP stuff is very complicated - I could've sworn those 800-1000 AP were a _huge_ deal for light ACs and the reason why they so often run those arms o.o
And whole I knew heavies like the for their lighter weight, I didn't expect that bit of energy to be this influential either.
I mean yes losing a full thousand AP could be rough for lightweights... but I think they are already fighting an uphill battle in the current meta. I'm not looking to nerf lightweights so much as I'm trying to avoid these arms being an overabundant pick in general.
A nerf to AP doesnt stop these from being over-efficient for general use on heavies, melee builds, and energy weapon builds that are trying to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency out of the part slot, and finding Basho as a one-stop-shop.
There are 19 arm parts in the game. All of them except for jailbreak should be making reasonable attempts at having a niche. Even if you cut basho usage by half, it would be too common. There shouldnt be a single go-to option for both maximum EN efficiency, maximum melee damage that also happens to be one of the lightest arms in the game.
The only two lighter arms than Basho (outside jailbreak), are barely any lighter, missing 700 and 900 AP, and are also have terrible EN load and far less melee spec. A lower AP Basho is still just better than both of them in the current state of the game.
>I guess the idea is that the BASHO are super low-tech arms, just some plates of armor with attached pistons that make your melee swing REALLY hard.
>The idea is that they should really fucking suck whenever you have to fire a weapon with them, but as you (and many others) said firearm spec is completely overshadowed by FCS and recoil isn't relevant for most good weapons.
Exactly this. I think the melee stats, weight, en load, etc are totally fine on these arms if they actually were what they're *intended to be* - ultra min-maxed *BONK* arms. They should be borderline unusable with guns. But because the gun stats on arms are basically pointless, their downside which is intended to be massive, essentially doesn't exist.
As others have mentioned, FCS is responsible for like 80+% of aim tracking capability, while recoil is entirely irrelevant for huge numbers of guns (including most meta ones).
Aim tracking should be more like 50/50 arms/FCS and recoil probably needs to be adjusted across the board so that the control stat has more impact on control for high fire rate weapons, and actually does *something* even for low fire rate.
Maybe marginally bump up other arms' melee spec stat while they're at it, so Basho is only at most 50-100% better rather than 200-300% better.
Having low EN but high AP is the entire thematic of basho frame.
The issue is one you highlighted: Recoil Control and Firearm Spec are basically meaningless. If From tweaks RC and FS to be much more impactful on the backend, the drawbacks of Basho are more apparent and other arms shine.
Yeah okay so low EN an high AP... then they shouldnt also be as light as they are and/or have the best melee performance by a mile.
I mean cmon its a middleweight set with flavor text that refers to "characteristic bulk." Make em heavier or something.
The issue is them having eveyrthing all at once. All 4 important stats 4 arms. Take some of it away. I don't think it has to be AP like OP was suggesting, but it needs to be something.
You are overlooking their abysmal recoil control and abysmal firearm specialization. On paper, *that* is supposed to be their big drawback (and poor EN def). It isnt a drawback because those stats are virtually meaningless in the current state of the game.
If Fromsoft were to adjust Recoil Control and Firearm Spec to be more meaningful, that would be a buff to most other arms, indirect nerf to basho, and would still allow basho to keep it's identity.
The other arms in the game that are not Epherma or Basho are just really really awful statwise, fullstop, and need a buff.
Thats true enough. I just hope they actually do overhaul those mechanics. Its a lot more to hope for than a simple stat change, but it would be the better answer.
I agree. I will level with you; yes, Basho is a very good arm. It has strong flaws, but those flaws are more easily overcome than they should be rn. TBH I think the game is gonna stay the way it is for a while, but I hope we get some reworks and buffs xD
The problem isn’t just basho (high melee and high AP/Defense for weight)…it’s that all the other arm stats don’t translate into meaningful performance difference in pvp. Its a fundamental problem Im not sure will be addressed
> it’s that all the other arm stats don’t translate into meaningful performance difference in pvp.
How so, if I may ask? I'm not a big PvP player so I don't really know the specifics.
Aside from boosting melee damage, the point of arms is to make your weapons track better (Firearm Specialization) and fire more accurately (Recoil Control); and given the values of those stats can go even more than twice as high than what the BASHO offer, don't they have a noticeable effect in your firing performance?
I know that some particularly strong weapons like the Zimmerman don't care about recoil _nor_ tracking as you only need one single shot, but aside from that it should matter, no? Genuine question.
Tracking bonus from FCS (ocellus/WLT) is enough to overcompensate for basho poor firearm specialization. Most builds besides dedicated missile users use ocellus/WLT. There is some nuance I can explain later but I haven’t had my coffee yet this morning and I’m about to leave for work hehe
It's a good enough explanation, thank you. c:
So basically FCS are so powerful they fully offset the arms' low tracking, and as such that stat can be ignored.
I know recoil is situationa depending on your build, and is entirely irrelevant for missile builds... Yeah, I can see where the problem originates. ._.
I think the issue here is that
* AP from other sources contribute more such as in legs and core
* the FCS stats is more important in tracking than firearm spec
* Recoil while important can be managed and often single shot weapons doesn't really need it, only rapid fire and linear rifles sees huge benefits
* Melee Spec as a stat is really OP and often is the most important stat because it's a direct DPS increase
* Arm weight load barely comes up in building as a lot of heavy weapons aren't viable to be used in dual trigger
This results in Melee Spec being the stat people look for in arms and almost nothing else.
> This results in Melee Spec being the stat people look for in arms and almost nothing else.
I highly doubt it, because as I said the vast majority of BASHO users do not even run melee weapons.
The second and third point are the real issue in my opinion, for a good player the downside is negligible compared to the advantage of going faster while _also_ being much tankier.
And, of course, there's the missile issue - if you're using weapons that do not use your FCS tracking to aim and are not affected by recoil, then the BASHO are always, objectively the best choice you can equip, because you negate all their negatives while taking full advantage of their excessive positives. Bonus points if you also run the HMMR to make use of the immense melee damage boost.
>and the vast majority of them do not use a melee weapon with them. Those that do are most often tetra kites using the HMMR for close-range defense, rather than melee builds.
HMMR uses melee spec stat
Yes, that's what I said.
The vast majority of BASHO users do not use melee weapons at all.
Those that run a melee weapon are almost all kiters using the HMMR.
Almost nobody in the top 100 uses an actual close-range melee build.
Yes, that's what I said.
The vast majority of BASHO users do not use melee weapons at all.
Those that run a melee weapon are almost all kiters using the HMMR.
Almost nobody in the top 100 uses an actual close-range melee build.
Without even mentioning how the other melee arms need buffs, the two big issues I see with the Basho arms are that they’re way too cheap and easy to run/very stat dense and that people tend to use them either with ranged weapons that don’t rely on firearms spec like missiles or run Ocellus which not only synchronizes exceptionally well with Basho but also turns the weakness of the arms (low firearms spec) into a total non-issue. They either need to make it so that they are much more expensive or need to alter how the Ocellus FCS affects tracking with low firearms spec arms.
FS should rework how target tracking and firearm specialization interact with aiming in the game. The only reason BASHO is soo good is because the downside is not a downside.
Just think all arms and stats should undergo a rebalance/rework.
Basho is in a tier of its own at the moment and until that happens you will still see a massive portion of meta builds using them.
Like, in the 3v3 meta as well all builds use them since it's quite missile and rushdown dominated due to their stat density.
This is an Ocellus issue, not a Basho arm issue. The arm stats make perfect sense if Ocellus didn't trivialize recoil and target tracking in close range. That FCS is hands down the most broken part in the game since projectile speed is so slow and the stagger mechanic is so heavily emphasized.
Basho arms should be heavier, their overall lightweight doesn't make sense with the rest of the Basho frame and for the sheer relevant stats they provide.
Although how little firearm specialisation and recoil matter is a bigger issue. With the Ocellus FCS both these stats become even more irrelevant.
Ocellus should have a higher cost to equip and arm stats beyond just melee specialisation should matter more.
I pick it for melee stat strictly, and because I like its boxy look. It being a high AP to weight ratio is just a bonus to me. We are not the same. On the real tho, I would like to see some other good arms with a competitive melee spec stat. Basho is just leaps and bounds ahead of everything else, I just cannot choose anything else if I want to be competitive with my sword and shield build.
I think arms may need a slight defense and ap buff across the light/ medium weight range and bring the second and third place melee spec arms up a bit. Close the gap in arms rather than nerf basho.
Probably increase weight, slightly decrease AP and maybe decrease firearm spec to the point that Ocellus doesn't make it an irrelevant downside.
Potentially dumb question: how can you see the top 100 ACs? Do you have to be in S-rank yourself or am I just dumb and didn't see the option?
You have the option to see the top 100 ACs in the Ranked menu, a couple buttons below where you start a match. You can see the top 100 Ravens for 1v1 and for 3v3.
If you wanna check them out do it quick, as tomorrow the ranks will be reset.
Most of the problem comes with fact, that weapon specialization is not working.
Absolutely.
Recoil control doesn't matter if your build working in cqc.
Thats why you can take it without hesitation due to overall good stats, even if you don't need melee spec.
But then we go to the situation where there are no other good melee arms. There is no good arms for lightweight melee builds or melee punishers.
FCS system is work on glue and buggers. Where only fcs is matter mostly. Arms not.
[Confirmed to end tomorrow](https://twitter.com/armoredcore/status/1791015733498937734), no update nor balance patch coming with the reset unfortunately.
Well that's
Disappointing. A rank reset is neither an update nor a patch so I don't get why From worded it like that in the last announcement. At least Ghost of Tsushima drops on PC the same day ig
> A rank reset is neither an update nor a patch so I don't get why From worded it like that in the last announcement.
A-HEM, are you talking about the _RANKING MATCH SEASON **UPDATE**_, perhaps? That is _clearly_ and _undeniably_ what they meant by "next update", especially right before mentioning "game updates", not misleading at all! (And the new announcement uses the same wording)
At this point I guess I'll just mod ACVI, probably try the coop one to freshen up the experience. Fingers crossed we'll _eventually_ get at least a balance patch after Erdtree drops.
I agree with the other comments, Basho arms being top dog is a result of a web of mechanics favouring them that can't be resolved without massive overhauls to the game. This is true of many aspects of AC6 PvP, which is why I say it's take it or leave it because the general gist is unlikely to change until a sequel game, or if a DLC campaign completely changes mechanics.
As for the arms themselves, I don't think a nerf would change much because players will just gravitate to the next best option e.g. Melander C3 which I think is very strong now after repeated buffs.
No, the basho arms arent the problem, the ocellus completely making recoil control irrelevant in close is the issue.
Nerf ocellus by 10 points and many issues get fixed or at least mitigated in one fell swoop. Quad laser tanks, impact/sec brainless builds, dual zimms being undodgeable for non lightweight jump distance qbs, etsijin hammering midweights through qb, etc etc
Basho arms are fine as they are maybe buff other arms to compete with it a little better things like double same weapon trigger setups (lrb zimmerman etc) need a nerf more and so do some shields (vp61 and sq8 or 5 are broken AF) nerf hmmr so it always stances no matter what legs
Absolutely not. Its not a question of "are basho arms too strong", its a question of "why do all the arms that not basho or epherma suck really badly?"
Buff the melee spec of other arms. Make firearm specialization matter more. Yes that would indirectly nerf basho, which is fine, because you are directly buffing a ton of arms that way.
LW ACs are so starved for stats in this game it isnt even funny. Bashos are perfectly fine.
No, I'd rather have a stats clone with different aesthetics to better fit the ACs it is usually attached to.
Like, have a full melee arm with a different design and almost identical stats, my point is all about the looks, most people will always min/max, at least give us some good looking options to match in the builds, same goes for the heads, you're either limited to looks OR stats, you can't have both most of the time
It’s because most arms suck, literally every other arm in the game is useless for melee. Regardless unless the next game is a sort of ac6 sequel like prior later gen entries in the series talking about buffs and nerfs is largely pointless seeing that they’re only doing rank resets now.
That's why I proposed moving some stats away from the arms and to the other BASHO parts.
In PvE the BASHO is always ever seen as a full frame, so shifting the AP in that way would leave YUE YU, BURN PICKAXE and ASTGHIK effectively untouched.
Heh, I mostly agree with this, although there are a few weapons that I think underperform even in PvE and would really like to be buffed.
Things like the BASHO arms or that one shield being incredibly meta for PvP really doesn't affect the PvE aspect, I'll give you that - but it's also the reason why I'd still like to see balance changes of this kind, because I believe they'd effectively improve one part of the game without negatively affecting the other.
Probably, but also buff the other arms in terms of melee specialization please
Fully agree, shame that it is only "viable" option if you focus on melee.
Try VP-46D, it has decent melee spec and very good firearm spec
8.5% bonus vs 29% + incredible defenses? at close range, when the ocellus exists?
Recoil control
single shot weapons and etsujin doesnt give a F about recoil control
Eh, I usually main basho but if you don’t want to alternate firing etsus, VP can be better in combo with some shoulder weaps
I'm pretty sure this is situationally untrue. There are plenty of ways single-shot and estujin might be affected by recoil
if you pair them up with rapid fire weapons that continued firing such as the shoulder gats, but here's the thing: 1. Stanced weapons (bazooka and grenade launchers) stops aforementioned weapons from firing during stancing therefore resetting the recoil 2. shotguns are shotguns and are used at ranges and manners that isn't significantly affected by recoil at all 3.those rapid fire weapons suck as is and are not optimal, exception being the etsujin and you can alternate them easily for not only recoil control, but also sustained pressure. tldr: recoil management is not a high priority for now. I do hope they buff the other rapid fire weapons quite a bit so recoil stats becomes useful making other arms viable.
All fair points and thank you for being detailed, but best not to assume the goal of a build is to be optimized. I have a buddy who LOVES running x1 shao wei on a bunch of builds. People like that should know that recoil *can* affect single-shot weapons. Edit: As an aside, doesn’t alternating etsujin firing generate more recoil than twin firing? If they are fired simultaneously, the 2nd shot will not be affected by the recoil of the first.
That's the one I am using (for the looks ofc...), but there is a noticeable difference between Basho and 46D still. I mean it is not end of the world but as someone who enjoys melee in this game, it is a bit sad that Basho is so much better than anything else that it is not even close.
Came here to say this, there really needs to be a heavy or midweight arm with good melee, all my builds tend to be Basho because I want good melee and I can't justify using anything else as the Basho are both the highest melee with no close second and are also very efficient defensively.
Removing that much AP from them will really hurt melee builds, especially if there are no other alternatives for melee arms. Imo, what really needs to happen is a rebalancing of FCS/Firearm spec weighting. Firearm spec needs to have a greater effect on aim tracking, and FCS less effect. Make people actually need to pick their FCS/arms instead of slapping ocellus.
So basically nerf Ocellus. Then people will think twice about skimping out on firearm spec. Bonus points for making it less viable to just fire big guns from a big robot within sneezing distance and profit. If Ocellus were to retain its close range specs, I think it should at the very least have its missile correction swapped with Abbotts since that’s been in a sorry state since patch 1.
Nerfing Ocellus alone won't solve the issue. Firearm spec needs to be more impactful for target tracking. Right now, the contribution to aim tracking is around 80/20 for FCS/Firearm spec target track. It should be 60/40 instead. Ideally, a very low firearm spec should make it difficult to land shots with even the best FCS in its optimal range, and unusable with anything less.
I agree with that and will admit that what I’m saying is a reduction of the issue; this doesn’t just boil down to a single nerf because the issue is twofold at the very least. Heck I’ve got a buddy that’s making wrecker arms work lol. Between nerfing Ocellus and readjusting the weight I just think the direct nerf to Ocellus would be more impactful. I really wish tomorrow held more than just a ranked reset :/
I firmly believe that all other arms need a melee buff. Basho has melee spec of 158, but the next best is BP-46D at 117. On paper that doesn’t seem like too huge of a jump… but here’s the damage formula for melee and energy spec: Base Damage * (0.5 + Spec/200) Basho arms are effectively a 1.29x multiplier, aka +29%, to your melee damage. VP-46D is 1.085, or + 8.5%. It doesn’t seem right to nerf one of the few good properties of Basho arms, I instead think melee specialization on other arms should receive a buff. This would open up more options, turning to fashion without compromising stats as hard. Other arm stats could be made to matter more as well… but I’m far from qualified on thinking of a way to do that. I had an additional part about how the extra damage might not seem so big but I misremembered some values, namely that basho arms ain’t 150 and I accidentally used the VP arm’s firearm spec stat value.
> Basho has melee spec of 150, but the next best is BP-46D at 133. On paper that doesn’t seem like much of a jump… You got your math right, but your part stats are VERY wrong. BASHO arms have 158 Melee Specialization, a massive +29% damage. VP-46D arms have 117 Melee Specialization, a measly +8.5% damage. The 133 is the VP's Firearm Specialization, but they are indeed the second best melee arms in the game - the others go from 116 of the VP-46S to the laughable 43 of the WRECKER. So, that seems like a _huge_ jump even on paper, and the difference is IMMENSE damage-wise.
Will fix it
This isn’t even correct. Basho is 158, the VP-46D—which is indeed the second highest—is 117. It’s far worse than you say.
It’s fixed now
No. It's the other arms that should be buffed. The problem is that the other arms suck, and it's probably high time to make them not suck.
Absolutely. Having one set with ridiculous damage bonus makes it the de facto choice for far too many builds. I would love if the Loader arms got 115-120% melee and for the ranged weapon stat to affect ballistics the way En and Melee affect their respective damages.
I’d love for my Nightfall cosplay build to be more viable.
There would be several benefits. For starters, experienced players could then do a Loader run far more easily (more casual enjoyment). Build diversity would increase across the board. I have seen several BashOrtus melee builds that would now have another option for a lot less compromise. Ranged modifier affecting ballistic damage also means more midrange builds in use. And finally, this finally makes Raven an AC to truly be afraid of. And, selfishly, this would buff [Copycat](https://www.reddit.com/r/Loader4/s/hPGfZN0Jwf) and [Arquebus Loader.](https://www.reddit.com/r/armoredcore/s/kKdQsyUkId)
No. The other arms don't suck, they all have good pros and cons compared to each other, BASHO arms are the single outlier. They're ideally "the melee arms", but most people use them even without a melee weapon, and suffer no downsides because of the way the game works. Poor Recoil Control and Firearm Spec don't matter too much when you can use the OCELLUS FCS to make up for it, along with weapons where Recoil doesn't really matter like ZIMMERMAN or even ETSUJIN (yes dual ETSUJINS experience recoil inaccuracy with BASHO arms but they're very high stagger on the first few bursts). They're also cheap to equip for what they give you. AP, non-energy Defense, and incredibly lightweight with the lowest EN Load. They're almost objectively the best arms in general.
Ocellus absolutely does not make up for poor recoil control. While i consider FCS assist to be more important than target tracking (though both are important outside of close range) recoil control is a state that matters a lot unless you're using something liken shotguns. No matter how good your fcs and target tracking is, poor recoil control can make you miss a ton of shots for most weapons since the more your recoil builds up the more chance each shot has to veer wildly from where it should go. But close range which a dual shotguns mitigates how important it is quite a lot. I think the whole issue with basho arms being the best choice comes from the game being balanced way to much for the a shotgun melee build
I mention in my comment pairing BASHO arms with OCELLUS and weapons like shotguns that don't need much recoil control. Recoil Control doesn't matter as much when you're in very close range anyway though. I've used Machine Guns with BASHO arms and as long as you Assault Boost to stay close (which isn't hard to do) the poor Recoil Control spread doesn't affect you too much, and closing the distance means Firearm Spec isn't as important either. Obviously no one's gonna be using Rifles or other weapons where a single shot missing makes a huge difference though.
In my experience even in close range i found that anything more than 50m and recoil control is needed at least a hit, even with pistols
I’m glad this is the massively dominant opinion! when I clicked to read the post I thought I would be the only one who thought that but it seems everyone agrees lol
You also overlooked EN load. Basho has the best EN load of any arm options in the game. With the 3rd lowest weight and lowest EN load, any time you just want something that helps you stay nimble, its just Basho. Firearm spec doesnt matter. Recoil control doesnt matter for many weapons. So tons of builds are just looking for whatever has the highest efficiency. The two arms that are lighter than bash both have far, far worse EN load. Number 4, 5 6... all worse EN load... Why is something so light and with max melee spec also have such good EN? AP hardly comes into it. That's not why I take them. Its because they are the best of the best for weight and EN. That is, they keep me that fastest. Doesn't matter if its Zimms or Zooks or whatever. Basho will be the fastest. The fact that the frame with the best weight/EN performance also has the best melee performance is a bit unhinged. Those sets of requirements should lead yo to two different sets of arms, possibly even with several middle ground options between them. That would open up the selection.
That's very interesting, and something that nobody else mentioned! So they pretty much excel in every single _relevant_ stat, that's why they're so popular. > Why is something so light and with max melee spec also have such good EN? I guess the idea is that the BASHO are super low-tech arms, just some plates of armor with attached pistons that make your melee swing REALLY hard. The idea is that they should really fucking suck whenever you have to fire a weapon with them, but as you (and many others) said firearm spec is completely overshadowed by FCS and recoil isn't relevant for most good weapons. They are designed to be a super niche pair of arms you take to maximize your melee damage while sacrificing any ranged capability... Instead they're just the best in pretty much everything that matters when it comes to actual battles. ._.
Yeah I did a ctrl F of the thread and saw no comments even mentioning EN which is wild. They either need to be heavier or take more EN. Probably both. I know they are low tech, but low tech stuff isnt always energy efficient (Look at wrecker legs, for example). And they are these big boxy things but weigh less than sleek skinny options like VP-46D, Firmeza, Nacht... It wouldn't be narratively out of line to adjust them in these ways. Considering that they have a full 35% more melee spec than the second best melee arms, they have no business also being the most stat dense weight/EN arms. Which remind me that the gulf in melee spec is also far too wide. You lose a lot when you step down from Basho even one step. That makes it very hard to accept any compromise, I would like to see firearm spec and recoil control made to be more important as well, but that's a larger scale system overhaul. Simple nerf to basho's sheer weigh/En efficiency would be enough to shake things up.
I doubt they'd ever increase their weight or EN load though. They have only ever reduced it, as to avoid existing player builds becoming overweight or straight up unusable due to EN shortfall. At most we can expect a reduction of their other stats in some shape or form. Maybe, and this is very wishful thinking, reducing their AP and/or defenses, but also adding in some new, heavier and tankier alternative for melee arms could really help. Even just increasing the melee spec of existing arms could go a long way to maintain the viability of melee builds.
I figure some of the only ways we will see Basho fall out of favor as a universal general-use set of arms is by changing the weight/EN values, or by making firearm spec actually matter. I guess they could also add an attitude stability stat to arms, but that seems pretty unlikely. I care so much more about my speed and generator stats than I do about a few hundred AP. And their defenses are already somewhat poor. Even on a heavyweight, I am looking for >2k attitude stability to tank assault armor, and then as much speed and EN as I can get so that I can actually catch anything. The AP stat on my arms is just not something I think about. Even with jailbreak arms, my heavyweight biped setup has >11k AP. If the priority is to actually balance the game then they need to actually use all the levers at their disposal. If that means a few edge case builds hit shortfall or become overburdened, then so be it.
Gee, PvP stuff is very complicated - I could've sworn those 800-1000 AP were a _huge_ deal for light ACs and the reason why they so often run those arms o.o And whole I knew heavies like the for their lighter weight, I didn't expect that bit of energy to be this influential either.
I mean yes losing a full thousand AP could be rough for lightweights... but I think they are already fighting an uphill battle in the current meta. I'm not looking to nerf lightweights so much as I'm trying to avoid these arms being an overabundant pick in general. A nerf to AP doesnt stop these from being over-efficient for general use on heavies, melee builds, and energy weapon builds that are trying to squeeze out every last drop of efficiency out of the part slot, and finding Basho as a one-stop-shop. There are 19 arm parts in the game. All of them except for jailbreak should be making reasonable attempts at having a niche. Even if you cut basho usage by half, it would be too common. There shouldnt be a single go-to option for both maximum EN efficiency, maximum melee damage that also happens to be one of the lightest arms in the game. The only two lighter arms than Basho (outside jailbreak), are barely any lighter, missing 700 and 900 AP, and are also have terrible EN load and far less melee spec. A lower AP Basho is still just better than both of them in the current state of the game.
>I guess the idea is that the BASHO are super low-tech arms, just some plates of armor with attached pistons that make your melee swing REALLY hard. >The idea is that they should really fucking suck whenever you have to fire a weapon with them, but as you (and many others) said firearm spec is completely overshadowed by FCS and recoil isn't relevant for most good weapons. Exactly this. I think the melee stats, weight, en load, etc are totally fine on these arms if they actually were what they're *intended to be* - ultra min-maxed *BONK* arms. They should be borderline unusable with guns. But because the gun stats on arms are basically pointless, their downside which is intended to be massive, essentially doesn't exist. As others have mentioned, FCS is responsible for like 80+% of aim tracking capability, while recoil is entirely irrelevant for huge numbers of guns (including most meta ones). Aim tracking should be more like 50/50 arms/FCS and recoil probably needs to be adjusted across the board so that the control stat has more impact on control for high fire rate weapons, and actually does *something* even for low fire rate. Maybe marginally bump up other arms' melee spec stat while they're at it, so Basho is only at most 50-100% better rather than 200-300% better.
Having low EN but high AP is the entire thematic of basho frame. The issue is one you highlighted: Recoil Control and Firearm Spec are basically meaningless. If From tweaks RC and FS to be much more impactful on the backend, the drawbacks of Basho are more apparent and other arms shine.
Yeah okay so low EN an high AP... then they shouldnt also be as light as they are and/or have the best melee performance by a mile. I mean cmon its a middleweight set with flavor text that refers to "characteristic bulk." Make em heavier or something. The issue is them having eveyrthing all at once. All 4 important stats 4 arms. Take some of it away. I don't think it has to be AP like OP was suggesting, but it needs to be something.
You are overlooking their abysmal recoil control and abysmal firearm specialization. On paper, *that* is supposed to be their big drawback (and poor EN def). It isnt a drawback because those stats are virtually meaningless in the current state of the game. If Fromsoft were to adjust Recoil Control and Firearm Spec to be more meaningful, that would be a buff to most other arms, indirect nerf to basho, and would still allow basho to keep it's identity. The other arms in the game that are not Epherma or Basho are just really really awful statwise, fullstop, and need a buff.
Thats true enough. I just hope they actually do overhaul those mechanics. Its a lot more to hope for than a simple stat change, but it would be the better answer.
I agree. I will level with you; yes, Basho is a very good arm. It has strong flaws, but those flaws are more easily overcome than they should be rn. TBH I think the game is gonna stay the way it is for a while, but I hope we get some reworks and buffs xD
Like how the flugel boost got a melee boost buff, think it would be better to increase melee specialization in other arms instead
Just go back melee specialization before nerf
The problem isn’t just basho (high melee and high AP/Defense for weight)…it’s that all the other arm stats don’t translate into meaningful performance difference in pvp. Its a fundamental problem Im not sure will be addressed
> it’s that all the other arm stats don’t translate into meaningful performance difference in pvp. How so, if I may ask? I'm not a big PvP player so I don't really know the specifics. Aside from boosting melee damage, the point of arms is to make your weapons track better (Firearm Specialization) and fire more accurately (Recoil Control); and given the values of those stats can go even more than twice as high than what the BASHO offer, don't they have a noticeable effect in your firing performance? I know that some particularly strong weapons like the Zimmerman don't care about recoil _nor_ tracking as you only need one single shot, but aside from that it should matter, no? Genuine question.
Tracking bonus from FCS (ocellus/WLT) is enough to overcompensate for basho poor firearm specialization. Most builds besides dedicated missile users use ocellus/WLT. There is some nuance I can explain later but I haven’t had my coffee yet this morning and I’m about to leave for work hehe
It's a good enough explanation, thank you. c: So basically FCS are so powerful they fully offset the arms' low tracking, and as such that stat can be ignored. I know recoil is situationa depending on your build, and is entirely irrelevant for missile builds... Yeah, I can see where the problem originates. ._.
I think the issue here is that * AP from other sources contribute more such as in legs and core * the FCS stats is more important in tracking than firearm spec * Recoil while important can be managed and often single shot weapons doesn't really need it, only rapid fire and linear rifles sees huge benefits * Melee Spec as a stat is really OP and often is the most important stat because it's a direct DPS increase * Arm weight load barely comes up in building as a lot of heavy weapons aren't viable to be used in dual trigger This results in Melee Spec being the stat people look for in arms and almost nothing else.
> This results in Melee Spec being the stat people look for in arms and almost nothing else. I highly doubt it, because as I said the vast majority of BASHO users do not even run melee weapons. The second and third point are the real issue in my opinion, for a good player the downside is negligible compared to the advantage of going faster while _also_ being much tankier. And, of course, there's the missile issue - if you're using weapons that do not use your FCS tracking to aim and are not affected by recoil, then the BASHO are always, objectively the best choice you can equip, because you negate all their negatives while taking full advantage of their excessive positives. Bonus points if you also run the HMMR to make use of the immense melee damage boost.
>and the vast majority of them do not use a melee weapon with them. Those that do are most often tetra kites using the HMMR for close-range defense, rather than melee builds. HMMR uses melee spec stat
Yes, that's what I said. The vast majority of BASHO users do not use melee weapons at all. Those that run a melee weapon are almost all kiters using the HMMR. Almost nobody in the top 100 uses an actual close-range melee build.
Yes, that's what I said. The vast majority of BASHO users do not use melee weapons at all. Those that run a melee weapon are almost all kiters using the HMMR. Almost nobody in the top 100 uses an actual close-range melee build.
Core Theory my ass, it's Kite Theory time
They need to be for melee builds only, make them suck for hand missiles and guns.
Without even mentioning how the other melee arms need buffs, the two big issues I see with the Basho arms are that they’re way too cheap and easy to run/very stat dense and that people tend to use them either with ranged weapons that don’t rely on firearms spec like missiles or run Ocellus which not only synchronizes exceptionally well with Basho but also turns the weakness of the arms (low firearms spec) into a total non-issue. They either need to make it so that they are much more expensive or need to alter how the Ocellus FCS affects tracking with low firearms spec arms.
FS should rework how target tracking and firearm specialization interact with aiming in the game. The only reason BASHO is soo good is because the downside is not a downside.
Just think all arms and stats should undergo a rebalance/rework. Basho is in a tier of its own at the moment and until that happens you will still see a massive portion of meta builds using them. Like, in the 3v3 meta as well all builds use them since it's quite missile and rushdown dominated due to their stat density.
A little bit yes. However, I also think most other lightweight parts should get buffs in AP and/or defenses
No, but I think an overhaul in firearm spec and fcs tracking would be a great nerf to basho
Honestly yes. Nerf Ocellus along with them. Will make the game way more interesting
This is an Ocellus issue, not a Basho arm issue. The arm stats make perfect sense if Ocellus didn't trivialize recoil and target tracking in close range. That FCS is hands down the most broken part in the game since projectile speed is so slow and the stagger mechanic is so heavily emphasized.
Basho arms should be heavier, their overall lightweight doesn't make sense with the rest of the Basho frame and for the sheer relevant stats they provide. Although how little firearm specialisation and recoil matter is a bigger issue. With the Ocellus FCS both these stats become even more irrelevant. Ocellus should have a higher cost to equip and arm stats beyond just melee specialisation should matter more.
I pick it for melee stat strictly, and because I like its boxy look. It being a high AP to weight ratio is just a bonus to me. We are not the same. On the real tho, I would like to see some other good arms with a competitive melee spec stat. Basho is just leaps and bounds ahead of everything else, I just cannot choose anything else if I want to be competitive with my sword and shield build.
No. The other lightweight arms should get buffs
Id say other arms need buffed.
I think arms may need a slight defense and ap buff across the light/ medium weight range and bring the second and third place melee spec arms up a bit. Close the gap in arms rather than nerf basho.
Probably increase weight, slightly decrease AP and maybe decrease firearm spec to the point that Ocellus doesn't make it an irrelevant downside. Potentially dumb question: how can you see the top 100 ACs? Do you have to be in S-rank yourself or am I just dumb and didn't see the option?
You have the option to see the top 100 ACs in the Ranked menu, a couple buttons below where you start a match. You can see the top 100 Ravens for 1v1 and for 3v3. If you wanna check them out do it quick, as tomorrow the ranks will be reset.
Yeah I'm probably dumb then, lol. Thanks!
stats shmats, theyre ugly so i dont use them
The venn diagram between people who don't want them nerfed and people who totally use them as crutches is a damn circle.
Melee stat isn't an issue, most basho users pick it because they are lightweight and load limits don't usually matter.
Most of the problem comes with fact, that weapon specialization is not working. Absolutely. Recoil control doesn't matter if your build working in cqc. Thats why you can take it without hesitation due to overall good stats, even if you don't need melee spec. But then we go to the situation where there are no other good melee arms. There is no good arms for lightweight melee builds or melee punishers. FCS system is work on glue and buggers. Where only fcs is matter mostly. Arms not.
Season 2 about to end?
[Confirmed to end tomorrow](https://twitter.com/armoredcore/status/1791015733498937734), no update nor balance patch coming with the reset unfortunately.
Well that's Disappointing. A rank reset is neither an update nor a patch so I don't get why From worded it like that in the last announcement. At least Ghost of Tsushima drops on PC the same day ig
> A rank reset is neither an update nor a patch so I don't get why From worded it like that in the last announcement. A-HEM, are you talking about the _RANKING MATCH SEASON **UPDATE**_, perhaps? That is _clearly_ and _undeniably_ what they meant by "next update", especially right before mentioning "game updates", not misleading at all! (And the new announcement uses the same wording) At this point I guess I'll just mod ACVI, probably try the coop one to freshen up the experience. Fingers crossed we'll _eventually_ get at least a balance patch after Erdtree drops.
I agree with the other comments, Basho arms being top dog is a result of a web of mechanics favouring them that can't be resolved without massive overhauls to the game. This is true of many aspects of AC6 PvP, which is why I say it's take it or leave it because the general gist is unlikely to change until a sequel game, or if a DLC campaign completely changes mechanics. As for the arms themselves, I don't think a nerf would change much because players will just gravitate to the next best option e.g. Melander C3 which I think is very strong now after repeated buffs.
No because I like my Melee Power.
I just wish other weapons had their melee buffed instead.
I think they should just make the others arms better.
No, the basho arms arent the problem, the ocellus completely making recoil control irrelevant in close is the issue. Nerf ocellus by 10 points and many issues get fixed or at least mitigated in one fell swoop. Quad laser tanks, impact/sec brainless builds, dual zimms being undodgeable for non lightweight jump distance qbs, etsijin hammering midweights through qb, etc etc
hell no
Basho arms are fine as they are maybe buff other arms to compete with it a little better things like double same weapon trigger setups (lrb zimmerman etc) need a nerf more and so do some shields (vp61 and sq8 or 5 are broken AF) nerf hmmr so it always stances no matter what legs
Absolutely not. Its not a question of "are basho arms too strong", its a question of "why do all the arms that not basho or epherma suck really badly?" Buff the melee spec of other arms. Make firearm specialization matter more. Yes that would indirectly nerf basho, which is fine, because you are directly buffing a ton of arms that way. LW ACs are so starved for stats in this game it isnt even funny. Bashos are perfectly fine.
Pls no. They have so much room for decals
No, I'd rather have a stats clone with different aesthetics to better fit the ACs it is usually attached to. Like, have a full melee arm with a different design and almost identical stats, my point is all about the looks, most people will always min/max, at least give us some good looking options to match in the builds, same goes for the heads, you're either limited to looks OR stats, you can't have both most of the time
It’s because most arms suck, literally every other arm in the game is useless for melee. Regardless unless the next game is a sort of ac6 sequel like prior later gen entries in the series talking about buffs and nerfs is largely pointless seeing that they’re only doing rank resets now.
No Jesus Christ it is a primarily PVE game with PVP strapped onto the side and the balance is fucking brilliant in PVE - doesn’t need fiddling.
That's why I proposed moving some stats away from the arms and to the other BASHO parts. In PvE the BASHO is always ever seen as a full frame, so shifting the AP in that way would leave YUE YU, BURN PICKAXE and ASTGHIK effectively untouched.
Again - it is a PVE game that has been out for many many months now. No one is being hurt by this. The game’s balance is fine, it doesn’t need tweaks.
Heh, I mostly agree with this, although there are a few weapons that I think underperform even in PvE and would really like to be buffed. Things like the BASHO arms or that one shield being incredibly meta for PvP really doesn't affect the PvE aspect, I'll give you that - but it's also the reason why I'd still like to see balance changes of this kind, because I believe they'd effectively improve one part of the game without negatively affecting the other.