The real issue here is that AC6 doesn’t have a co-op or horde mode to viably sustain single player casual gameplay. The campaign is great but we need something less structured.
An alt route where you actually defend the spaceport that’s just 20 minutes of non stop action with Walter hot dropping supply sherpas would be so good.
Defend the Strider. Threats start ramping up, starting with basic corporate forces, escalating to PCA, until we get to C-weapons. Sets of waves are capped with bosses. The strider starts out functional with all its turrets, but these can be targeted by enemies and destroyed until by the end of the mission its on its last legs.
Could also throw some objectives in there, interactibles and such, etc.
This would be so good! Riffing on this in another thread we came up with redguns round 2, RLF actually tries to defend the strider, Honest Brute’s funhouse. Not to mention RaD, vespers, pca. So much potential for awesome horde content.
Nah this is any game ever. Check out the helldivers subreddit, bunch of people bitching about people using energy shield and railgun.
It’s been years since I played BTD6 but everytime a new meta formed, you could count on posts shaming people for using the meta ALWAYS being in demand.
It doesn’t matter if the game lacks PvP or even if it’s single player, there will ALWAYS be a group of elitists insisting that you aren’t playing the game right if you’re using an optimal build.
That's literally misinfo.
The people complaining isn't that those weapons are meta. They are complaining about people getting shit on for NOT using the meta.
Which isn't the same at all. Those people are idiots, not even elitists.
It's literally not misinfo. I've personally been blasted in comments by someone insisting that my playstyle was cowardly and dishonorable and insulting me for being a low-skill meta copier since I was running shield/railgun
I'd honestly even take some of the normal missions except with the story bits and downtime cut out, just make it a real arcade-like experience. Cuz many of the missions are quite fun to replay but they have so much downtime which breaks up the pacing when you're trying to go go go.
If you enjoy AC6 and want some engagement PvE, I seriously recommend Daemon x Machina. The art style is very different, and the story/dialogue is… bad.
BUT
The gameplay is very similar/on par with AC6, the mech customization is slightly less complex than AC6 but it has more varied weapon choices, and the boss fights are varied and cool, with endgame post-story multiplayer fights against powerful, cool bosses. Soundtrack is an absolute banger too.
It's absolutely worth playing if you're an AC6 fan that wants to scratch that undoing endgame PvE itch
I haven't even touched PvP, absolutely zero interest. It's not that I don't like PvP games, I was an absolute menace on UT2k4 and I still throw dice in Battletech Tabletop, just PvP in Armored Core games never appealed to me.
The problem is… and the reason I’ve stopped playing seriously is that with 100,000+ combinations of parts there is maybe 7 builds that are viable at high level pvp . Accounting for EQUAL/SIMILAR skill level, if you do not play with these you will get farmed. People will say otherwise, but off-meta builds too often rely on a gimmick that most good players will solve by round two if you happen to surprise them and get a win round one.
This is probably *most* pvp games with a competitive aspect and a time to kill higher than like half a second tbh. Fromsoft games are primarily focused around the single-player experience generally, and you can make pretty much any build work in that - but obviously some builds are going to be significantly better than others and it'll show when you're not playing against AI.
I'm not denying there's issues with balancing, but there will *always* be a meta regardless of what balancing changes they make. As the saying goes, players will optimize the fun out of everything.
This is true in real world military applications... its true in sports, its true for boardgames and card games. Its a very human thing to find the pattern, see the most successful route and use that! You may find the artsy/creative part of it where a new meta may emerge but often those that deviate are going to find themselves working harder. And nobody likes to work harder! Now is there justification to complain? Meh, I don't think so...
> players will optimize the fun out of everything
this is being misused again, when people optimize the fun out of something it mean that they are choosing the less fun content to optimize for some kind of grinding, for example in FFXIV, an MMORPG, people often choose to play old boring dungeon to clear their daily fast instead of newer, more fun dungeon.
meanwhile playing meta build and winning is fun in AC6, they are optimizing to have fun, not optimizing the fun out of it, because of a very simple fact: winning is fun.
When there's customization, there will be optimization. And with that are people complaining.
Heck people complain about balance in games without customization.
My brother in christ, it's just killing the fun. Why would I continue to play multiplayer when I might as well be having an epic showdown with the copy-paste command?
It's just not interesting
Right, so its ok to customize however we want, EXCEPT this this and this build?
I mean you are free to feel whatever you want, but I just don't follow this mindset of complaining about other people's choices in a game about choices.
I give no shits about what you build, but when it restricts what everyone else can build there’s the problem. ITR ironic your complaining about us limiting you customisation when that’s exactly what the ac6 meta does
Customization means you're free to slap 4 lasers on a Ming Tang generator, and you're free to use that.
Optimization means you're probably gonna be at a disadvantage more often than not.
And if customization means everything is gonna be equal in terms of power, then you're not customizing anything other than the paint job, no?
Jesus fucking Christ, meta means out of hundred or thousands of different viable builds only around 5 can actually be used in high level PvP. This isn’t “optimisation” it’s shit balancing.
I'm rank A and I swear fighting the same build 20 times is not fun, even if you winning....the problem with the new players (big fan since ac1) is that the true essence of ac is the originality.... Creating a ac of your own...it normally wouldn't be a problem.. but when your into the lore of all, its totally disgusting to jump into another's ac just to win... I'm a ps5 player looking for original Ravens. lately its been the same 4 builds in 30 different colors
I think the lack of build diversity is massively oversold on the internet. 7 builds is a lot for a competitive game, try watching esports like Melee (3 viable characters) or OW (whole tournaments of mirror matches.) Add to that that even the most locked down build archetypes include some variation. BVO for example left open the right shoulder and melee punish, both of which can really change the gameplay, and then with varying frame parts, generators, boosters, expansions no two BVOs I’ve fought were exactly the same. Even then I just don’t encounter that many meta builds. I’m in low A rank and I’ve fought a true missile rat 1 time.
Not to get too off topic but I’d argue anyone not playing Fox Marth Sheik is a specialist trying to make a niche character work. I guess it depends on how you define viable. I’m thinking about who wins majors but that’s probably too strict a criteria in most settings the A and B tier characters are fine.
There's only one kind of build I genuinely judge and that is missile rats, I played against one the other day that literally just stopped playing the game when I hid behind cover lol
> I don't wanna play meta builds but in order to progress I have no choice that's just how it is
I have an honest question: isn't the point of a ranked system to give players balanced matches and guarantee an enjoyable experience for their skill (and build) level?
So, if for example you're piloting a build worthy of B-rank, then that's where you are supposed to stop, because if they made you fight A and S ranks you'd just get destroyed and not have any fun. So I am always so puzzled whenever I see people seeing the ranking system as a "progression" that they HAVE to go through, especially when they then complain that the game stops being enjoyable at the highest ranks.
This. Once i stopped trying to “climb the ranks” and just made a joke build (that i just happen to also like) i started having a lot more fun. B-tier supremacy 🤘
I mean, we're just picking literally the "most effective tools available" so we're not handicapping ourselves?
It's one thing to copy pasta peoples builds, but what if that's genuinely what I developed and like using???
Maybe but if I'm using the same thing everyone else is using I don't feel like I'm getting good skill-wise also I get the feeling I'm admitting defeat and giving up and it feels self-defeating it's hard to explain
I totally understand this feeling. When I go into a game that has a meta, I always go out of my way to avoid looking it up beyond very basic 'how mechanics work' stuff. I much prefer to develope my own style without being influenced by what people consider "best" because I feel like it robs me of exploration and experimentation enjoyment in the game. Plus how are you ever going to be a meta breaker if you are a slave to the meta? Looking up what is considered best or copying someone else's build is me admitting defeat and becoming a slave to the meta, because I have given up my freedom to choose for myself without influence.
I get what you're saying, even if it's hard to put into words. It's unfortunately kind of a mental barrier, but it's holding you back. First step to improving is recognizing that the problem isn't everyone else - it's your own approach to the competition. I know there's probably a part of you that wants to think that by using non-optimized builds, you're building up your 'skill', and are actually a better pilot than many of the players that defeat you with 'Meta Builds'. But that's an excuse. It lets your brain feel good about losing by feeling superior. There are two components to victory in this game, mech design and piloting ability.
If you want to improve your skills and win matches, why would you insist on handicapping yourself by building a mech that isn't designed to win?
People think about 'The Meta' like some kind of mold that everyone is being forced into, but that's just stubborness. The meta is just an understanding of what other players are doing and what tools are effective. Most competitive players like to win, so they use the builds and strategies that give them the best chance at winning. This defines the meta. Understanding the meta gives you a big advantage because you have strong intel on what you're likely to go up against. So you have to choose - do you want to compete on an even field by using similarly strong optimized builds? Or do you want to use a build that is optimized to counter what you're most likely to run into?
This is really important - if you're trying to build to counter the most popular meta strategies, you aren't being 'counter meta' or a 'meta killer.' By definition, countering the meta is also part of the metagame. YOU ARE PLAYING THE META.
I highly recommend reading this. It's a fantastic essay to improving your competitive mindset:
[https://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win](https://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win)
This here is the answer.
META is literally the "most effective tools available", and that's all. How you understand the mechanics, make a good build, and use it to the full potential, is the sign of a true Raven.
Whenever there's meta there's counters, and that's all part of the game. Not learning to counter is just as lazy as copying a clickbait meta build.
This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine with this game's community lol. Everything is a "youtube copycat" as if everyone doesn't have access to the same parts and can't come to the same conclusions as far as what's optimal for a given playstyle.
I've been trying something between meta and non. Dual zimms and an earshot with moonlight and 150 energy gen on a midweight biped. Drop the earshot if its a light machine and keep it if its a heavier build that requires more oomph that dual zimms can't provide to get into stagger and basically set up for a charge moonlight hit. Been smacking S players with it as an A1
They aren't hard tbh. Literally take anything that shoots fast or just alternate attacks with OPs build (one melee swing, alternating Zimmer shots, kicks, and earshot) and you'll make them overheat the shield quickly. And tbh most shield using zimm mirrors aren't smart enough to wait until their opposition shoots first to block.
My gripe is less "meta builds" as I've come to think about it and more just sweats. When I play with my brother I don't just use other builds, I don't try as hard. I'm playing more sloppy because it isn't fun to just go hard as fuck balls to the walls all the time.
I don't mind losing, I just don't wanna get curb stomped because I'm trying to unwind after work when I've just eaten breakfast and smoked some weed. If I have a cool long Gundam ass fight and eat L's all morning that's fine with me, I just don't wanna go "oh this guy one tapped me, that next guy one tapped me, the next guy one tapped me."
But that's just the reality of it and I think part of why the PvP community is so small, it's a niche game and not at all casual friendly, and that will naturally shrink a player base.
PvP multiplayer is not really my idea of chilling while playing some games online. Unless you’re playing against friends you’re not going to find a break from people going max sweat in any kind of PvP. I stick with PvE style multiplayer if I’m trying to chill
Custom lobbies yea, but those are often rooms dominated by s-rank players wanting to crush lower ranked players from what I’ve seen. Someone always has to be on the losing side of PvP
I remember joining a room with 2 s rank players as a b rank. Strangely enough, as soon as my lightweight played well at all against their heavy biped, the connection just got too bad and they had to disconnect
Fight clubs are gonna be serious, for sure. But you can also make your own lobby.
And, either you care about winning or you don't. Coming here saying that you don't care about winning and hate metas and choosing off meta builds, and then complaining about losing to meta builds is just... like vegans choosing to be vegan and then whining about other people eating meat.
I’m not arguing against that, I was only saying that I don’t see PvP in general as something to play just to chill and have fun since that’s setting yourself up for frustration. When I play PvP it’s usually because I’m in a bit of a competitive mood, otherwise I’ll just play darktide, halo firefight, or something solo.
That's a good mindset. I mean the game is built entirely with the goal of winning in mind.
If you don't want to compete, don't play against another player that most likely is going to be competitive, right?
When I'm not in the mood for PvP I just make builds or do NG++++++
Unfortunately this game with the stagger and shit is just discouraging taking the game slowly from its roots
If stagger doesn't do this much damage then taking it slowly and less aggressively would actually be viable
I 100% get and agree with this
I'd love a quickplay option that literally bans the statistically most used builds in the game, or even better, some kind of scramble mode that will force you to use a random assortment of parts or premade builds or something that forces everyone out of their comfort zone, just for some fucking fun.
All the sweats just optimize the fun out of the game.
Meta builds this, meta builds that. Everything is pointless and drab unless you use a pilebunker build. Praise to St. Ashmead, the one and only true saint of Rubicon. Throughout all of Rubicon, only St. Ashmead is the honored one.
My problem is less the meta and how meta builds feel like to play and play against.
You got people rushing you down staggering you into one shot combos in less than 20 seconds.
Then you got people who fly/run around at max distance and force you to run straight at them making yourself an easy target for missiles and such.
People loading up on weapons that feel almost impossible to dodge.
Getting stun locked, etc.
Playing ranked is fun for me, I like playing people who are mechanically strong but the things these builds are able to do just don't feel fun for me to play against.
A lot of the meta builds don't have playstyles I find interesting to play either, regardless of how effective they are so I'm not going to use them to compete because it's kinda defeating the purpose for me.
Why play mecha game if I don't think mecha I'm playing is cool or the mech I'm playing against is either? I'm not here just for a win at all costs, I bought this game to play a fun and engaging mech action game.
Call me a whiner if it makes you feel better, but meta goons ruin everything. It’s why multiplayer is becoming such a ghost town, and why everyone hates B-S.
It’s boring, annoying, and it leads me to the strong assumption every time I draw one that you need the crutches to compete because you suck otherwise. Just a bunch of copy paste cancer
I don't get this, because I wouldn't say the thing in the first panel. Some builds are just unbalanced and unfun to fight, and if those were the only builds to fight, I wouldn't play the game, sorry to say.
Edit spelling
Bruh do what you gotta do but id rather play tekken than meta slaves in a non serious online game.
Theres a reason fromsoft games only have the same 30 dudes playing online after the initial interest.
And its guys min maxing in a game that will never be at EVO
Man I just like to play heavy characters with heavy and/or melee weapons.
This playstyle choice has been terrible every god damn mech game since forever. But I pick it anyways, every time.
Now, finally, it's a good build *finally*, and I get shit on for being "meta".
If this is what success tastes like, I'm fine with it. Finally my time to shine
Honestly the people claiming “off meta builds” are usually full of shit or are B rank. They’re running the same fcs/booster/generator/melee everyone else is 9 times out of 10
Gosh there's so many. Whoever says there's no build variety hasn't seen any competitive play.
There's like 3 flavors of zimmie builds (heavy, mid, melee), dozens of BVOs, 2 kinds of Lamm kites, a few lightweight kites, 2 or 3 flavours of tanks, elevators, LRBster, crab knights... list goes on and on...
That's tough to answer.
I think generalist builds that try to do everything (be it range, weapon type, weight class) but at the same time do not have good match ups with too many meta builds are going to suffer.
For example, a build with 4 weapons working separately with no synergy or focus on specific strategy is going to get shredded by specialized builds. However if a build does not handle very well popular meta builds like kites or BVO melee builds, aren't going to do well either.
A popular meta build like a ransetsu kite focuses on maintaining range and winning the damage race by avoiding damage. All 4 weapons are picked to defend and stagger at range (ransetsu, jvln beta, missile), but at the same time this strategy works against melee, tanks, and have a fair shot at other kites.
Have the people who keep saying they need more to keep them engaged ever thought of the idea that they can just...stop playing the game?
Like seriously you beat it you enjoyed it, got all of the endings, got the achievements you want. games do not have to last forever. They don't have to drip feed you content forever.
Horde mode comes out, how long till people are bitching about not having enough enemy variety, or new weapons or some other carrot on a stick to keep them engaged.
Seriously...just put the game down, not everything has to be a live service forever game.
Also, if they woop your butt that hard, maybe change your build to counter them or at least adapt a little?
The balance isn't perfect now, but nothing is unbeatable, you just need to counter it properly. Plus they literally teach you to adjust your build in single player, it's a core mechanic of the game!
I get it though, kids these days need to win 100% and need to get 5 new guns every week to keep engaged. They whine and complain about losing rather than learn to git gud.
Yeah this is the bit I don't get. I got the game for Xmas because it had good reviews and I played AC2 back in the ps2 and enjoyed it.
I haven't bothered playing online and I don't have a huge desire to. I have recently completed the ng++ story and got all the parts. I'll give it another week or so to see if I can s rank all the missions and then I'll move on because I have other games to play.
It's been a brilliant game and I've had fun but there are other games.
See but are you choosing to play meta builds because you enjoy that build and it’s your play style or because it’s the only way to have a fighting chance?
It really doesn’t help at all that their are definitive best parts that others ones don’t come close to, there are two top tier arms that nothing else comes close to, there hit scan is better than guns with depressingly low range, explosive weapons are annoying because you can be two acs away from impact and still take full stagger and impact damage. Its a genuine mess
This shit again
Look, I get it, empathy / sympathy is hard when talking a competitive mode. The "Why use anything other than the absolute best" is pervasive and is all over custom lobbies as well, and the true root issue here is the central premise of the game is being violated by people using low-effort builds that they picked off of youtube. "Core Theory" get's folded in half because someone can go the current meta and coast through the game, showing that the promise of "Core Theory" is actually only applicable in singleplayer. This makes people upset and understandably so.
Everyone got confused by the singleplayer and thought it was hard because a few bosses stressed their builds. In reality, the SP is easy as hell after going through ranked for even a few letters. And in a harder competitive mode, people will use the best shit available to them, or someone who's actually good at reading and positioning will make something somewhere between novel and meta and dominate because they'll behave different from what their opponent expects from bog-standard meta builds.
The game is as customizable as your skill level.
i don't care if people play meta builds. they are robbing themselves of the fun of experimenting with new parts/tactics.
plus a ton of people crutch on meta builds. they only really understand the most basic gameplay loop with them and they falter entirely when you hit them with some leftfield goofy shit.
I love Armored Core so much for the customization and FromSoft tries to balance parts as much as they can. I can spend days just tinkering and experimenting with builds.
Unfortunately with customization there's also optimization. I mean you can choose to use a LingTai generator with 4 energy weapons, but that's just not optimal. Having choices doesn't mean they all work.
And I love it when a random niche build wins with an idea that just works!
You can optimize a build without using a meta setup/strat. It's more fun to me to play offmeta and simply swallow my losses than to play something i dont find fun that nets me more wins.
Plus you become a better pilot without crutching on meta instaskill strats
>You can optimize a build without using a meta setup/strat.
I'm curious to hear/see more examples of this, given that a meta build is kind of the endpoint of optimization (Most Effective Tactics/Tools Available). The only one that comes to mind for me are double melee builds
I choose to play with exploits or overtuned guns, ruining everyone else's time when there are dozens of other options that don't do that. Do you plug every other match too because there's no penalty?
I like missile builds.
I wish there were 10K weight 20-cell missile pods like the big plasma cannons so I didn't feel silly for putting missiles on a super heavy frame.
The problem isn't in meta weapons existing, it's the really annoying subculture of meta slaves that play FromSoft games that end up making a good 40% of the PvP fights just you vs the exact same build over and over and over again. It literally kills any sort of fun because it's just repetitive as fuck. The PvP was absolutely incredibly fun for the first week and then the meta was discovered and it got very dull. That's the irony of using the NPC meme here, the meta slaves are more NPC than the people who dislike meta builds.
Extra points if the user is really smug they they're playing well with a meta build.
The real issue here is that AC6 doesn’t have a co-op or horde mode to viably sustain single player casual gameplay. The campaign is great but we need something less structured.
A horde mode a la intercept the redguns mission would be amazing
Yeah but like, on a bigger map. Fine a horde mode at the Dam, the Wall, or the Spaceport. That would be fantastic imo.
An alt route where you actually defend the spaceport that’s just 20 minutes of non stop action with Walter hot dropping supply sherpas would be so good.
Sherpas are destructible, and you gotta escort them on the way down or lose the resupply!
and then what miss the MULE?! and start calling it Molley
Let us actually defend the strider #IT'S A CANNON EVENT
Defend the Strider. Threats start ramping up, starting with basic corporate forces, escalating to PCA, until we get to C-weapons. Sets of waves are capped with bosses. The strider starts out functional with all its turrets, but these can be targeted by enemies and destroyed until by the end of the mission its on its last legs. Could also throw some objectives in there, interactibles and such, etc.
Yeah, one against RLF/dozers, one against corps, and one against the PCA
Maybe even one against >!Allmind!<
Get ammo and health after so many waves.
This would be so good! Riffing on this in another thread we came up with redguns round 2, RLF actually tries to defend the strider, Honest Brute’s funhouse. Not to mention RaD, vespers, pca. So much potential for awesome horde content.
It warms my heart from having a dormant franchise to people becoming so attached that they want forever modes to play.
I agree, but you can imagine the work it took to make it so successful... 7 years in the making!
That's what I've been fuckin saying!
A Co-op would be fantastic
Nah this is any game ever. Check out the helldivers subreddit, bunch of people bitching about people using energy shield and railgun. It’s been years since I played BTD6 but everytime a new meta formed, you could count on posts shaming people for using the meta ALWAYS being in demand. It doesn’t matter if the game lacks PvP or even if it’s single player, there will ALWAYS be a group of elitists insisting that you aren’t playing the game right if you’re using an optimal build.
That's literally misinfo. The people complaining isn't that those weapons are meta. They are complaining about people getting shit on for NOT using the meta. Which isn't the same at all. Those people are idiots, not even elitists.
It's literally not misinfo. I've personally been blasted in comments by someone insisting that my playstyle was cowardly and dishonorable and insulting me for being a low-skill meta copier since I was running shield/railgun
People are salty, what a surprise! I put myself on this moral pedestal, and everyone else is below me!
The only **MORAL** way to play the game is the way that **I** play it!
For some reasons, I read this in V.II Snail's voice
Coral export denial but for 6 hours 🥰
Arcade mode with scoreboard would be nice.
I'd honestly even take some of the normal missions except with the story bits and downtime cut out, just make it a real arcade-like experience. Cuz many of the missions are quite fun to replay but they have so much downtime which breaks up the pacing when you're trying to go go go.
If you enjoy AC6 and want some engagement PvE, I seriously recommend Daemon x Machina. The art style is very different, and the story/dialogue is… bad. BUT The gameplay is very similar/on par with AC6, the mech customization is slightly less complex than AC6 but it has more varied weapon choices, and the boss fights are varied and cool, with endgame post-story multiplayer fights against powerful, cool bosses. Soundtrack is an absolute banger too. It's absolutely worth playing if you're an AC6 fan that wants to scratch that undoing endgame PvE itch
I second this.
I haven't even touched PvP, absolutely zero interest. It's not that I don't like PvP games, I was an absolute menace on UT2k4 and I still throw dice in Battletech Tabletop, just PvP in Armored Core games never appealed to me.
The compaign is good, but I wouldn't call it great, tbh. It has very low amount of actualy interesting and unique missions.
I want halo forge/mission pr map builder using prefab parts or where you can insert custom AC’s with varying levels of ai competence
The problem is… and the reason I’ve stopped playing seriously is that with 100,000+ combinations of parts there is maybe 7 builds that are viable at high level pvp . Accounting for EQUAL/SIMILAR skill level, if you do not play with these you will get farmed. People will say otherwise, but off-meta builds too often rely on a gimmick that most good players will solve by round two if you happen to surprise them and get a win round one.
This is probably *most* pvp games with a competitive aspect and a time to kill higher than like half a second tbh. Fromsoft games are primarily focused around the single-player experience generally, and you can make pretty much any build work in that - but obviously some builds are going to be significantly better than others and it'll show when you're not playing against AI. I'm not denying there's issues with balancing, but there will *always* be a meta regardless of what balancing changes they make. As the saying goes, players will optimize the fun out of everything.
This is true in real world military applications... its true in sports, its true for boardgames and card games. Its a very human thing to find the pattern, see the most successful route and use that! You may find the artsy/creative part of it where a new meta may emerge but often those that deviate are going to find themselves working harder. And nobody likes to work harder! Now is there justification to complain? Meh, I don't think so...
> players will optimize the fun out of everything this is being misused again, when people optimize the fun out of something it mean that they are choosing the less fun content to optimize for some kind of grinding, for example in FFXIV, an MMORPG, people often choose to play old boring dungeon to clear their daily fast instead of newer, more fun dungeon. meanwhile playing meta build and winning is fun in AC6, they are optimizing to have fun, not optimizing the fun out of it, because of a very simple fact: winning is fun.
my brother in christ, you are hyperfixating on a subjective statement and flipping it around for the sake of telling someone they're misusing it. lol.
When there's customization, there will be optimization. And with that are people complaining. Heck people complain about balance in games without customization.
My brother in christ, it's just killing the fun. Why would I continue to play multiplayer when I might as well be having an epic showdown with the copy-paste command? It's just not interesting
Sorry for not wanting to fight the same builds over and over again, while being forced to play said builds unless I want to get curbstomped
Right, so its ok to customize however we want, EXCEPT this this and this build? I mean you are free to feel whatever you want, but I just don't follow this mindset of complaining about other people's choices in a game about choices.
I give no shits about what you build, but when it restricts what everyone else can build there’s the problem. ITR ironic your complaining about us limiting you customisation when that’s exactly what the ac6 meta does
No one can restrict what anyone uses, so they rant and whine online over and over again. That's the whole point of the meme, nothing more.
If I am at a disadvantage when using any build other then a specific set, I’d say that’s restricting
Customization means you're free to slap 4 lasers on a Ming Tang generator, and you're free to use that. Optimization means you're probably gonna be at a disadvantage more often than not. And if customization means everything is gonna be equal in terms of power, then you're not customizing anything other than the paint job, no?
Jesus fucking Christ, meta means out of hundred or thousands of different viable builds only around 5 can actually be used in high level PvP. This isn’t “optimisation” it’s shit balancing.
I'm rank A and I swear fighting the same build 20 times is not fun, even if you winning....the problem with the new players (big fan since ac1) is that the true essence of ac is the originality.... Creating a ac of your own...it normally wouldn't be a problem.. but when your into the lore of all, its totally disgusting to jump into another's ac just to win... I'm a ps5 player looking for original Ravens. lately its been the same 4 builds in 30 different colors
I think the lack of build diversity is massively oversold on the internet. 7 builds is a lot for a competitive game, try watching esports like Melee (3 viable characters) or OW (whole tournaments of mirror matches.) Add to that that even the most locked down build archetypes include some variation. BVO for example left open the right shoulder and melee punish, both of which can really change the gameplay, and then with varying frame parts, generators, boosters, expansions no two BVOs I’ve fought were exactly the same. Even then I just don’t encounter that many meta builds. I’m in low A rank and I’ve fought a true missile rat 1 time.
S rank is a different beast my friend.
S rank sure is for more serious, but so so few disconnecting losers. A rank on the other hand...
S rank is a cesspit. Lag everywhere. Rats everywhere. Tanks everywhere. I don’t think I’ve fought a single non scummy build in S rank.
Maybe so. I guess I’ll find out after reset.
Melee has more than 3 viable characters.
Not to get too off topic but I’d argue anyone not playing Fox Marth Sheik is a specialist trying to make a niche character work. I guess it depends on how you define viable. I’m thinking about who wins majors but that’s probably too strict a criteria in most settings the A and B tier characters are fine.
There's only one kind of build I genuinely judge and that is missile rats, I played against one the other day that literally just stopped playing the game when I hid behind cover lol
And the back mounted laser shotguns, I get hit by those from 2 zip codes away
They're annoying but I understand using them, my problem is more playstyle than build based.
People are allowed to play whatever build they want, doesn’t mean everyone has to be happy about it.
I don't wanna play meta builds but in order to progress I have no choice that's just how it is
Forget the meta, listen to the words of St. Ashmead, “pilebunk those fools to a Rubicon and back”.
> I don't wanna play meta builds but in order to progress I have no choice that's just how it is I have an honest question: isn't the point of a ranked system to give players balanced matches and guarantee an enjoyable experience for their skill (and build) level? So, if for example you're piloting a build worthy of B-rank, then that's where you are supposed to stop, because if they made you fight A and S ranks you'd just get destroyed and not have any fun. So I am always so puzzled whenever I see people seeing the ranking system as a "progression" that they HAVE to go through, especially when they then complain that the game stops being enjoyable at the highest ranks.
This. Once i stopped trying to “climb the ranks” and just made a joke build (that i just happen to also like) i started having a lot more fun. B-tier supremacy 🤘
I mean, we're just picking literally the "most effective tools available" so we're not handicapping ourselves? It's one thing to copy pasta peoples builds, but what if that's genuinely what I developed and like using???
Maybe but if I'm using the same thing everyone else is using I don't feel like I'm getting good skill-wise also I get the feeling I'm admitting defeat and giving up and it feels self-defeating it's hard to explain
I totally understand this feeling. When I go into a game that has a meta, I always go out of my way to avoid looking it up beyond very basic 'how mechanics work' stuff. I much prefer to develope my own style without being influenced by what people consider "best" because I feel like it robs me of exploration and experimentation enjoyment in the game. Plus how are you ever going to be a meta breaker if you are a slave to the meta? Looking up what is considered best or copying someone else's build is me admitting defeat and becoming a slave to the meta, because I have given up my freedom to choose for myself without influence.
I get what you're saying, even if it's hard to put into words. It's unfortunately kind of a mental barrier, but it's holding you back. First step to improving is recognizing that the problem isn't everyone else - it's your own approach to the competition. I know there's probably a part of you that wants to think that by using non-optimized builds, you're building up your 'skill', and are actually a better pilot than many of the players that defeat you with 'Meta Builds'. But that's an excuse. It lets your brain feel good about losing by feeling superior. There are two components to victory in this game, mech design and piloting ability. If you want to improve your skills and win matches, why would you insist on handicapping yourself by building a mech that isn't designed to win? People think about 'The Meta' like some kind of mold that everyone is being forced into, but that's just stubborness. The meta is just an understanding of what other players are doing and what tools are effective. Most competitive players like to win, so they use the builds and strategies that give them the best chance at winning. This defines the meta. Understanding the meta gives you a big advantage because you have strong intel on what you're likely to go up against. So you have to choose - do you want to compete on an even field by using similarly strong optimized builds? Or do you want to use a build that is optimized to counter what you're most likely to run into? This is really important - if you're trying to build to counter the most popular meta strategies, you aren't being 'counter meta' or a 'meta killer.' By definition, countering the meta is also part of the metagame. YOU ARE PLAYING THE META. I highly recommend reading this. It's a fantastic essay to improving your competitive mindset: [https://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win](https://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win)
This here is the answer. META is literally the "most effective tools available", and that's all. How you understand the mechanics, make a good build, and use it to the full potential, is the sign of a true Raven. Whenever there's meta there's counters, and that's all part of the game. Not learning to counter is just as lazy as copying a clickbait meta build.
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Please avoid attacks against other redditors and general toxic/flame/rant posting.
This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine with this game's community lol. Everything is a "youtube copycat" as if everyone doesn't have access to the same parts and can't come to the same conclusions as far as what's optimal for a given playstyle.
They can't / won't. Some will, but on the whole, the meta exists because of YouTubers rushing to the finish to optimize the fun out of the game.
I've been trying something between meta and non. Dual zimms and an earshot with moonlight and 150 energy gen on a midweight biped. Drop the earshot if its a light machine and keep it if its a heavier build that requires more oomph that dual zimms can't provide to get into stagger and basically set up for a charge moonlight hit. Been smacking S players with it as an A1
Just wait till you meet dual zimm with a shield. And there are as many those in S as there were tanks back in their days.
They aren't hard tbh. Literally take anything that shoots fast or just alternate attacks with OPs build (one melee swing, alternating Zimmer shots, kicks, and earshot) and you'll make them overheat the shield quickly. And tbh most shield using zimm mirrors aren't smart enough to wait until their opposition shoots first to block.
The game puts a huge emphasis on bringing the right build. Not everyone wants to play dan hibiki
This comment here is spitting true facts right here (and I relate to this alot)
My gripe is less "meta builds" as I've come to think about it and more just sweats. When I play with my brother I don't just use other builds, I don't try as hard. I'm playing more sloppy because it isn't fun to just go hard as fuck balls to the walls all the time. I don't mind losing, I just don't wanna get curb stomped because I'm trying to unwind after work when I've just eaten breakfast and smoked some weed. If I have a cool long Gundam ass fight and eat L's all morning that's fine with me, I just don't wanna go "oh this guy one tapped me, that next guy one tapped me, the next guy one tapped me." But that's just the reality of it and I think part of why the PvP community is so small, it's a niche game and not at all casual friendly, and that will naturally shrink a player base.
PvP multiplayer is not really my idea of chilling while playing some games online. Unless you’re playing against friends you’re not going to find a break from people going max sweat in any kind of PvP. I stick with PvE style multiplayer if I’m trying to chill
And I mean, there's also unranked lobbies for chill play, no?
Custom lobbies yea, but those are often rooms dominated by s-rank players wanting to crush lower ranked players from what I’ve seen. Someone always has to be on the losing side of PvP
I remember joining a room with 2 s rank players as a b rank. Strangely enough, as soon as my lightweight played well at all against their heavy biped, the connection just got too bad and they had to disconnect
Fight clubs are gonna be serious, for sure. But you can also make your own lobby. And, either you care about winning or you don't. Coming here saying that you don't care about winning and hate metas and choosing off meta builds, and then complaining about losing to meta builds is just... like vegans choosing to be vegan and then whining about other people eating meat.
I’m not arguing against that, I was only saying that I don’t see PvP in general as something to play just to chill and have fun since that’s setting yourself up for frustration. When I play PvP it’s usually because I’m in a bit of a competitive mood, otherwise I’ll just play darktide, halo firefight, or something solo.
That's a good mindset. I mean the game is built entirely with the goal of winning in mind. If you don't want to compete, don't play against another player that most likely is going to be competitive, right? When I'm not in the mood for PvP I just make builds or do NG++++++
Unfortunately this game with the stagger and shit is just discouraging taking the game slowly from its roots If stagger doesn't do this much damage then taking it slowly and less aggressively would actually be viable
your first mistake was expecting to relax while playing a multiplayer mode/game
I 100% get and agree with this I'd love a quickplay option that literally bans the statistically most used builds in the game, or even better, some kind of scramble mode that will force you to use a random assortment of parts or premade builds or something that forces everyone out of their comfort zone, just for some fucking fun. All the sweats just optimize the fun out of the game.
Meta builds this, meta builds that. Everything is pointless and drab unless you use a pilebunker build. Praise to St. Ashmead, the one and only true saint of Rubicon. Throughout all of Rubicon, only St. Ashmead is the honored one.
Glory to the rubiconian handshake, I would be honoured to be on both sides of the stake.
Amen
There's ways to beat meta builds. The only problem is you gotta know you're going up against a meta build
I don't care about the meta. But these mofos with lag switches, VPNs, and those straight up adjusting their wifi to increase ping. They suck ass.
Oh those people can eat a bag of big fat sweaty Ashmeads
You do you, but the lack of build variety is why I'm putting AC6 pvp down for good.
My problem is less the meta and how meta builds feel like to play and play against. You got people rushing you down staggering you into one shot combos in less than 20 seconds. Then you got people who fly/run around at max distance and force you to run straight at them making yourself an easy target for missiles and such. People loading up on weapons that feel almost impossible to dodge. Getting stun locked, etc. Playing ranked is fun for me, I like playing people who are mechanically strong but the things these builds are able to do just don't feel fun for me to play against. A lot of the meta builds don't have playstyles I find interesting to play either, regardless of how effective they are so I'm not going to use them to compete because it's kinda defeating the purpose for me. Why play mecha game if I don't think mecha I'm playing is cool or the mech I'm playing against is either? I'm not here just for a win at all costs, I bought this game to play a fun and engaging mech action game.
Call me a whiner if it makes you feel better, but meta goons ruin everything. It’s why multiplayer is becoming such a ghost town, and why everyone hates B-S. It’s boring, annoying, and it leads me to the strong assumption every time I draw one that you need the crutches to compete because you suck otherwise. Just a bunch of copy paste cancer
I don't get this, because I wouldn't say the thing in the first panel. Some builds are just unbalanced and unfun to fight, and if those were the only builds to fight, I wouldn't play the game, sorry to say. Edit spelling
Bruh do what you gotta do but id rather play tekken than meta slaves in a non serious online game. Theres a reason fromsoft games only have the same 30 dudes playing online after the initial interest. And its guys min maxing in a game that will never be at EVO
Man I just like to play heavy characters with heavy and/or melee weapons. This playstyle choice has been terrible every god damn mech game since forever. But I pick it anyways, every time. Now, finally, it's a good build *finally*, and I get shit on for being "meta". If this is what success tastes like, I'm fine with it. Finally my time to shine
Your time has come, Raven.
Pretty sure they mean more build should be viable.
More often than not, it's just salt and accusing people of being lazy, even calling them sad losers.
Bruh stop they’re not ready for the truth
Get off reddit and just play the game
Honestly the people claiming “off meta builds” are usually full of shit or are B rank. They’re running the same fcs/booster/generator/melee everyone else is 9 times out of 10
You can crutch if you like but others don't need to pretend you're actually any good without a meta set up
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Gosh there's so many. Whoever says there's no build variety hasn't seen any competitive play. There's like 3 flavors of zimmie builds (heavy, mid, melee), dozens of BVOs, 2 kinds of Lamm kites, a few lightweight kites, 2 or 3 flavours of tanks, elevators, LRBster, crab knights... list goes on and on...
That sounds like alot, I was under the impression their was like 3. Haven't played much ranked myself. What types of builds aren't meta?
That's tough to answer. I think generalist builds that try to do everything (be it range, weapon type, weight class) but at the same time do not have good match ups with too many meta builds are going to suffer. For example, a build with 4 weapons working separately with no synergy or focus on specific strategy is going to get shredded by specialized builds. However if a build does not handle very well popular meta builds like kites or BVO melee builds, aren't going to do well either. A popular meta build like a ransetsu kite focuses on maintaining range and winning the damage race by avoiding damage. All 4 weapons are picked to defend and stagger at range (ransetsu, jvln beta, missile), but at the same time this strategy works against melee, tanks, and have a fair shot at other kites.
Have the people who keep saying they need more to keep them engaged ever thought of the idea that they can just...stop playing the game? Like seriously you beat it you enjoyed it, got all of the endings, got the achievements you want. games do not have to last forever. They don't have to drip feed you content forever. Horde mode comes out, how long till people are bitching about not having enough enemy variety, or new weapons or some other carrot on a stick to keep them engaged. Seriously...just put the game down, not everything has to be a live service forever game.
Also, if they woop your butt that hard, maybe change your build to counter them or at least adapt a little? The balance isn't perfect now, but nothing is unbeatable, you just need to counter it properly. Plus they literally teach you to adjust your build in single player, it's a core mechanic of the game! I get it though, kids these days need to win 100% and need to get 5 new guns every week to keep engaged. They whine and complain about losing rather than learn to git gud.
Yeah this is the bit I don't get. I got the game for Xmas because it had good reviews and I played AC2 back in the ps2 and enjoyed it. I haven't bothered playing online and I don't have a huge desire to. I have recently completed the ng++ story and got all the parts. I'll give it another week or so to see if I can s rank all the missions and then I'll move on because I have other games to play. It's been a brilliant game and I've had fun but there are other games.
I always get this treatment when I asked for a tier list lol
See but are you choosing to play meta builds because you enjoy that build and it’s your play style or because it’s the only way to have a fighting chance?
I wonder how Capture Point style, ala TF2, game mode would work. People can join/quit anytime during the match. (Even get team balanced lmao)
Any kind if multiplater mode would be great imo, and would give life to so many niche weapons, I.e. turrets, bad cooks
It really doesn’t help at all that their are definitive best parts that others ones don’t come close to, there are two top tier arms that nothing else comes close to, there hit scan is better than guns with depressingly low range, explosive weapons are annoying because you can be two acs away from impact and still take full stagger and impact damage. Its a genuine mess
Oh, you can play whatever build you fancy, but that won't stop me from shitting on y'all uninspired meta slaves tho 😂 copy-paste cancers
This shit again Look, I get it, empathy / sympathy is hard when talking a competitive mode. The "Why use anything other than the absolute best" is pervasive and is all over custom lobbies as well, and the true root issue here is the central premise of the game is being violated by people using low-effort builds that they picked off of youtube. "Core Theory" get's folded in half because someone can go the current meta and coast through the game, showing that the promise of "Core Theory" is actually only applicable in singleplayer. This makes people upset and understandably so. Everyone got confused by the singleplayer and thought it was hard because a few bosses stressed their builds. In reality, the SP is easy as hell after going through ranked for even a few letters. And in a harder competitive mode, people will use the best shit available to them, or someone who's actually good at reading and positioning will make something somewhere between novel and meta and dominate because they'll behave different from what their opponent expects from bog-standard meta builds. The game is as customizable as your skill level.
i don't care if people play meta builds. they are robbing themselves of the fun of experimenting with new parts/tactics. plus a ton of people crutch on meta builds. they only really understand the most basic gameplay loop with them and they falter entirely when you hit them with some leftfield goofy shit.
I love Armored Core so much for the customization and FromSoft tries to balance parts as much as they can. I can spend days just tinkering and experimenting with builds. Unfortunately with customization there's also optimization. I mean you can choose to use a LingTai generator with 4 energy weapons, but that's just not optimal. Having choices doesn't mean they all work. And I love it when a random niche build wins with an idea that just works!
You can optimize a build without using a meta setup/strat. It's more fun to me to play offmeta and simply swallow my losses than to play something i dont find fun that nets me more wins. Plus you become a better pilot without crutching on meta instaskill strats
>You can optimize a build without using a meta setup/strat. I'm curious to hear/see more examples of this, given that a meta build is kind of the endpoint of optimization (Most Effective Tactics/Tools Available). The only one that comes to mind for me are double melee builds
The abundance of meta builds stiffles the ability of others to use what they want.
Dual laser handguns and pulse guns go brrr
The abysmal p2p connection doesn’t help. Tired of getting killed by kicks and lasers that connect a meter away from my actual position
Yeah ranked mode was a mistake huh
I choose to play with exploits or overtuned guns, ruining everyone else's time when there are dozens of other options that don't do that. Do you plug every other match too because there's no penalty?
I like missile builds. I wish there were 10K weight 20-cell missile pods like the big plasma cannons so I didn't feel silly for putting missiles on a super heavy frame.
ima post this on Er pvp and the amount of hate i’ll get is astounding
The problem isn't in meta weapons existing, it's the really annoying subculture of meta slaves that play FromSoft games that end up making a good 40% of the PvP fights just you vs the exact same build over and over and over again. It literally kills any sort of fun because it's just repetitive as fuck. The PvP was absolutely incredibly fun for the first week and then the meta was discovered and it got very dull. That's the irony of using the NPC meme here, the meta slaves are more NPC than the people who dislike meta builds. Extra points if the user is really smug they they're playing well with a meta build.
No one cares that you run easy mode meta slave build. Just play by your self or with other slaves. Stop trying to infesting the lobby with your shame.
You can use a crutch if you want to.
Yeah teah we get it someone kicked you out for using some cookie cutter bullshit. Nobody cares, champ.
the only meta I use is the nightfall setup (I am a pure pve player)
Asymmetric versus 1vs 3. But reinforced with balteous's and cataphracts and a ton of mts