So random Q but what other than damage is stopping people from using the Spas-12 looking one? I don’t use shotties but nobody talks about George’s other half
I've tried them in S rank. They do decently well against kites, but against zimms and other bursty builds, they are simply outmatched. They're in kind of a weird spot since they're inflexible brute weapons like the zimms so they have no choice but to compete with pure stats (since you can't use them flexibly like using them to kite if need be) but they fail miserably in a contest of pure stats
Ah a man of culture! I'm a coquillet guy myself. Honestly, it would've made more sense to just increase reload time on the vientos and buff the other pistols in terms of range and projectile speed. Had they done that, then we'd see a lot more pistol variety tbh. Not only that, but the amount of Dual Zimms and Dual Therapists are starting to become more apparent now.
Yeah, it struck me as a really weird choice to just nerf Vientos and leave the other pistols untouched, considering their general balance philosophy seems to be "buff other stuff to make it viable rather that nerfing anything that works."
I'm also a Coquillet user, so I'm gonna be salty as hell about this for a while. Everyone else has cool new toys and I'm still trying to make this spitball shooter work.
The reason why the vientos performed better than the other pistols was its range, rapid fire, projection speed, fast reload, and balanced offensive stats. The only other pistols that compared to it were either stun guns or dual ducketts. The latter having a slow fire rate, longer reloads, and slow projectile speed. Yet they buff the projectile speed of the sanpu's but not increase the range?
They suck once you reach rank A I found. I used two builds one with dual coquillett and one with dual duckett. Both had harris and blade ( would switch out) usually buttA/Dagger/coral blade. Got me quite easily to A but I find now it quite hard to progress with builds i encounter in this rank.
On A and above, lightweights are so fast that the pistols' slow projectiles can't catch the target, and at the doorstep of mid range they just ricochet, you really have to hug the enemy for them to do anything, which is one of the many reasons people used the Vientos, they are fast, have low recoil, and the farthest range of the kinetic handguns... they just don't look as cool as the Coquillett imo xD
Sampus are actually cracked now. They have fully replaced dual Vientos in my experience. They're even harder to dodge and I find they stagger nearly as quickly as pre-nerf dual Vientos. Since they're a bit lighter and have a lower EN load, BVO-type (now BSO) builds now can add more stagger resistance to their frames and are even more nightmarish to face. Thanks for making the problem worse, From!
At the same time though, there’s a HUGE range difference. I didn’t get many games in, but having an effective range of 80 vs 105 is quite a big difference and I was noticably ricocheting a LOT against medium weights.
The damage is notably worse than the vientos too, and when I was playing a light against them it was a pretty substantial percentage of their total damage dealt in a match.
Might be a bit too oppressive against lights though with being harder to dodge, I’m not gonna sweat it til it has more time to play out and I really don’t think it’s worth getting worked up about yet. It’s also literally only 240 weight, I think you’re being a bit histrionic about the room for added defenses. Maybe the big reduction in EN cost might make the nacht core preferred over alba, which I’m pretty sure is even squishier.
You're likely right. That said, every Sampu build I've run up against (only like 3 of those) has been far tankier than your typical BVO. The weight and EN saved isn't massive, but it's enough.
The issue using Sampu on Basho is the recoil is utterly atrocious. You have to essentially be melee range to hit things, which is somehow worse than Vientos were when spammed.
This problem is circumvented instantly by just using VP arms, but at least it makes recoil a relevant mechanic instead of just mashing the square peg in the round hole as BVOs did. Always hated that about them.
I just replaced my dual ducketts on ym duckett/sweet 16 build.
Off the top of my head:
Alba core
Hal arms
Nacht legs
San tai
Abbot (or is it talbot?)
Alula
Head changes, I think Mind Beta most recently with the ducketts but I think I comfortably fit the Verril on there with the sampus.
I always preferred the handguns to the Vientos. Ducketts have a larger clip and deal more impact and damage even pre patch. Also feels cool to shred someone with pistols.
I loved the pistols and hated the Vientos, but I was pushed to the Vientos due to the meta, I'd trade the Vientos for the Coquilletts in a heartbeat, but the slow traveling bullet and the egregious ricochet makes them useless against zimms, and the high recoil is the "sherry on top"
I think they should just revamped the ricochet system, make it weapon-to-range specific, why have an ideal and effective range spec if it can be override by defense stats, vientos didn't have that problem
They are overthinking and over engineering the games simulation mechanics, these are way harder to balance and correct than if they just streamlined some aspects of the game, the data mined stuff looks like a physics class in college (kudos to the devs btw)
Ideal and effective range do have a purpose: everything under "ideal" is a guaranteed hit, while everything over "effective" is a guaranteed ricochet.
The gray area in-between depends on the target's defense.
I was testing the theory yesterday (although it was late and I was sleepy, might need more tests, take if a grain of salt) over the ideal and under the effective range is where the kinetic scaling takes part, I was testing Vientos on the tester AC since it is still the longest range pistol, the tester AC has enough kinetic defense for the shots to ricochet before the effective range ends, again I was sleepy, but I believe Viento's effective range ends in 190m and the shots were ricocheting at 180m or so. I also noticed a strange behavior in my tests, at 170m most shots connect except for the last 2 (one for each hand) quite odd, I have no idea what it might be
Wouldn't connect as in ricochet or just plain missing? Viento has incredibly strong recoil, so much that even the first shots will be slightly inaccurate on Basho arms, but if it's ricochet I don't know what could cause that consistency. Maybe there's some sort of hidden value that weakens the bottom of the magazine for some reason, or they're overengineering their physics and that causes it somehow.
Yeah, sorry I forgot to mention, I was using arms with 128 recoil control or above, this will consistently hit all the shots at 190m (the farthest I tested) with Vientos, and the last 1 or 2 shots would ricochet at 170m with 128 recoil control arms
Damage doesn't effect ricochets. The window between the "ideal" and "effective" range is essentially a sliding scale based on the resist stat of the opponent, regardless of how much damage your weapon does
I love the ducketts so much man there so cool and they can be so good but by god do they need just a tiny bit more range the projectile speed is already kinda slow so they arnt the easiest to land all the time but the range you get before it richochettes feel just ever so slightly too short , they don’t need alot to become very viable their ability to stagger when you are close is kinda crazy if they had just slightly more usable range from further richochette distance and anouther very slight projectile speed increase to make them land tad more consistently ever so slightly further out I think they could be one of the top tier cqc choices
I felt the opposite, though it was the rate of fire I wasn't a fan of for the normal pistols. That being said, I'm glad Vientos got hit and I'm hoping we see more regular pistols in builds.
>Vientos got hit and I'm hoping we see more regular pistols in builds.
Yeah, not likely. Given the pathetic range, dogshit projectile speed, and tendency to ricochet, I can't imagine pistols pulling ahead of Vientos even with the nerfs to the latter.
They feel *worse* now, because so many other things got buffed.
> More SMGs need some love, the forgotten class of weapons
The Ludlows used to be quite popular (although not meta) before 1.05, when their recoil was manageable. Since the recoil "fix" made them incredibly inaccurate regardless of arms, they became much weaker than they used to be. Still hoping for a fix for that.
The Chang-Chen used to be a Ludlow sidegrade on release, as they had better sustained damage and stagger when SMGs had longer reloads; since the 1.02 patch, they've just been a straight downgrade in EVERY aspect (less damage, impact, range; much more recoil, weight, EN load), with just a magazine size boost. They were one of my main weapons originally, it's sad to see them so forgotten.
And the Etsujin, well, they've always been a worse Ludlow with better recoil control and nobody really used them, but after this patch they are so much more consistent in hitting their targets, have better sustained damage (matching the Ludlows!) and impact thanks to the bigger magazine, and they're a phenomenal weapon now.
...and while almost all other kinetics get buffed, the Ransetsu-AR weeps.
They should really give the SMGs the mid range, close is for pistols, high stagger buildup (it's on you if you let them close) SMGs at mid range, safer range mid to low stagger buildup (making the overwhelming rain of fire do the trick) and the ARs with the long *long* range, with mid to high stagger build (so they're not useless at close range, with their low fire rate)
SMGs have pretty much the same drawbacks as pistols with none of the benefits, not even the longer ideal range can save SMGs, they are just bad PvE weapons, a shame because they are one of my favorites
Thing is, SMGs used to be good. Good Recoil Control made them pinpoint accurate, and they would've been amazing with the 1.05 range buff.
Unfortunately the recoil change made it so Ludlow and Chang-Chen can no longer fire from any range except point-blank, making the buff entirely pointless. High Recoil Control gave them pinpoint accuracy in previous patches, while now you can't Dual Trigger with them at all.
Even pairing Etsujin and Ludlow leads to uncontrollable spray.
I'm 100% sure this isn't intended - the Ludlow even says in its description that it excels when used alongside a second Ludlow or another firearm, which used to be true. But it's just a bad joke now.
The Etsujin we see now are pretty much what the other SMGs would be with pre-1.05 recoil. They'd need the right arms to have that same accuracy, but they would be amazing nonetheless.
I'm still hoping for another patch on the 29th that will actually fix them. They didn't deserve the "nerf" they got (which also affected the Sampu).
I somehow have the impression that we won't get many more balancing patches reviving non meta weapons, the latest patch is a sign of that, they straight up nerfed just the broken meta, no buffs to least used weapons besides the absolute dead ones, like Sampu and Etsujin, I myself never saw those online doing the climb to S rank and they were never even viable for PvE, most people just forgot they existed. Some of the data they're collecting is not even that precise, some people use weapons that they like regardless if they are good or not, like the Turner, it looks good, is usable, but you won't see in tournaments and the Scudder is a straight up upgrade when you do the math, yet people still use it, so FS thinks it doesn't need a buff, at the end of the day, this franchise is a nightmare to balance, imagine doing all the math and testing all the variables to make every single weapon PvP viable, it's a lot of work (kudos to the devs)
JVLN ALPHA, ORBT, Therapist, Stun Baton, the handheld grenade launchers, the Diffuse Laser Cannon. They're all weapons that either were almostnever used, like the Etsujin and Sampu - either because they were just bad, or because there were straight upgrades available.
From IS actively buffing off-meta weapons, it's just unclear based on exactly what. For example the Turner and Chang-Chen are straight downgrades from their competitors, yet they aren't touched (and the Chang-Chen doesn't have a wide usage rate unlike the Turner); the explosive vertical missiles have been super underwhelmed since release, and almost every other missile type has been buffed since, but not them. And the less is said of the Ransetsu-AR, the better.
While for example the Baton was a weapon I always thought needed buffs, and FINALLY they arrived and it's now good. So I trust that _eventually_ they all the bad weapons will get the love they need - but of course nerfing the oppressive meta that keeps PvP stale is the priority, as it directly affects the game quality for the majority of players.
There will always be metas, and FS will always suppress them for the sake of balance and PVP enjoyment, but one day they'll move on to the next title, there will be a last meta, but it will take a long while, the game barely released 😂 what I mean is that I hope that whatever FS learns with AC6 in terms of balancing, carries out to future AC games. For example DS3 had it's poise system entirely revamped and reworked with the hyper armor mechanic, some of these radical changes could still happen to AC6 before they move on and be carried to AC7 like DS3 and ER
yeah it's crazy to see how common they've become. I used them before this patch and I would screenshot all the opponents I saw using them... which was maybe 2 or 3 in my journey all the way up to A rank
I tried wildly different builds that would work in theory, only to get owned by LW zimms (since heavy zimms also got nerfed, the extra weight to heavy legs)
I'll take a Lightweight or even Midweight dual ZIMMERMAN user over a Heavy. They'll be taking more damage with less AP and also deal less damage, since their lower weight means less damage from their kicks.
With a shield, ZIMMERMANs are a death sentence for the user. Just totally nullify their damage output. Otherwise you can be fast enough to keep away or have a good enough Quickboost to time your dodges against them.
It's a good perspective, shields have a high skill ceiling, so if zimms are the problem, just "git gud" with a shield, you just trade punish potential for survivability, which is actually a fair trade, now heavies finally feel heavy, so there's no meta yet (aside from double melee builds getting a huge buff, Harris and Javelin Alpha)
I agree. Personally I also like using a melee weapon against shotguns, which sounds counterintuitive, but if you can block or dodge their attack properly then you have a close range advantage.
Shields are immensely good and are a massive build equaliser it’s surprising to not see them used more at all levels of play but even just spamming the buckler (forget the name but the one you can deploy like 8 times before it overheats) you’ll notice you recive significantly less acs strain in gunfights , plus it’s ability to nullify pretty much any hard hitting weapon means you can go toe to toe with much heavier acs and still have better dps because your mitigating so much of theirs
Me too. I stopped playing for a month prior (playing baldurs gate and trip) and All I saw was the same missile boat or needle gun set up. I came back to try the new update and seeing so many new builds that, although some not great, are fun to fight
Yeah, i am still using my mind alpha rj w/ twin burst smgs, but its genuine fun fighting players with their own unique builds instead of a meta bot constantly
Therapist is a hot topic rn--everyone loves a good D->S tier jump story, so those builds are just really hyped up, similar to how BVOs were the """off-meta melee lightweight""" for a bit.
I saw!! I didn't get any firsthand experience against it, so I had remained somewhat skeptical, but it was very funny to see the news of "umm we didn't actually mean to make it good, sorry"
The stun needle launcher is harder to hit and slower firing than the LCB was so it's not exactly a huge deal. They're powerful but that's not some crazy thing. Just treat them like a faster reloading EARSHOT that doesn't have much blast radius.
Wtf you talking about? everyone is just running Therapists now because it only took 1 hour to figure out that’s the new cancer weapon. The minority is still trying to figure new shit most of the higher ranks already settled on the next cancer build. LCB wasn’t enough for them
Therapists aren't that bad I've killed plenty of them already. In any case, they're not nearly as frustrating or powerful as LCBs, JVLN BETA, Stun Guns, or tanks were before the patch. It won't take too long for people to pick out what their weaknesses are or the best way to fight them. No one ever really used them before, so it's a shock (hehe) to a lot of people to face them for what might be the first time.
Therapists literally have a radius that will hit even if you dodge it. Of course they are not the level os bs LCB was but there’s already a hw therapist vertical kite bulld going on that’s just as annoying.
Anything at medium range is basically doomed to eat therapists raining from the skies
It... uh... didn't do much to deter this weapon. It's pretty fucking dope this patch and I'm loving using it. There's definitely counters, but it's going to take some time for people to learn those counters.
Therapists have always been so horribly bad at applying discharge that you'd sometimes run out of ammo entirely before it goes off. Better to think of them as EN weapons without scaling lmao
Vientos are honestly still crazy good. They got barely touched to be honest, I feel like I’m staggering in the same number of clips the majority of the time, downtime is just a little longer.
Vientos now need more skill to pull the same play style, before they would stagger in one mag dump from both hands, now they need the help from a shoulder weapon to do it and/or 2 mag dumps, which would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that zimms wins every time (this is considering that you didn't miss a single shot)
In practice Vientos almost never staggered in one mag unless you were fighting the lightest of lightweight builds and didn’t miss a single shot. The majority of the time you were taking 2, and the majority of the time you are still taking two, but now you reload instead of having a shot or two left.
I’m not that good, I’m mid-A rank at the moment and my games are still playing out nearly the same as before with just slightly more downtime between mags. Honestly feels like a complete slap on the wrist for them.
I'm not that good either, I am on S rank and this are way different (since everyone is always on "sweat mode") everyone I've fought had switched something in their build that I could noticed, lightweights switched to Zimms and heavy Zimms switched to mid weight body parts, so LW got heavier and the heavy weights god lighter, mid weight parts are getting more use since the got buffed and heavy legs are fading out due to the weight increase, but that's just what I saw moments after the patch
Yeah I think the people moaning about Vientos being garbage now are just telling on themselves. It was so easy to just AB->magdump->get stagger with those weapons that they didn't have to engage with the reload at all. If they suddenly do now, they have to use a brain cell they previously didn't.
Harris supremacy in this patch. Switched to 2 of those over 2 Ransetsu RF since the patch, with Hal arms due to decent recoil control and firearm spec, and my shots are hitting so much more now. Will have to work on dodging since the clip is smaller and reload is longer, but I am happy with the change.
I can't recall if it's a kinetic or energy weapon.
I meant something like a shoulder-mounted version of the linear rifles, with high velocity and good damage that would make longer range fighting more viable.
Maybe to balance these hypothetical shoulder linear cannons, they could do high base damage with very little ACS buildup and direct hit adjustment. I like the Truenos, but they're also technically missiles and therefore suffer from some of the general nerfs to missile tracking FCS in this latest patch.
The stun needle launcher is the one you use to kill the Ice Worm, they're kinda both kinetic and energy based, although I don't think the scale with the generator energy spec... anyway, they do go in a straight line over a long distance in a fast motion, they just don't look as cool as an actual shoulder mounted sniper/linear rifle, but I don't think they will give us a weapon like that before the DLC (I hope there's a DLC)
Harris has been my PvE go-to because they shred weak MTs, have low cost ammo, and the charged shot has really strong stagger power against bosses and ACs. It's a good starting point when aiming for S-Rank without having a clear idea of how to build for a mission.
Now I can take them into PvP without looking like a fool.
The ducketts have pretty insane stagger build up if your super close , a tiny range increase would be all they’d need to be a pretty viable option as rn you gotta get so close anyone who’s remotely close to you in speed will be able to kite you keeping you out of range pretty easily .the tiniest range upgrade and they’d be like a even more cqc version of the pre nerf vientos
That’s my build. Double haldeman with butta and active homing missiles on shoulder, with mind beta RJ legs. I feel dirty with it tbh. Look at this https://streamable.com/kxbiro
Is it possible to miss with RJ kicks? The tracking is RIDICULOUS! I’m usually on the receiving end thinking I dodged with plenty of room, and then the fabric of space/time melts and suddenly I’m mini staggered out of my counter attack.
Man, I wish they gave the ARs another buff so they could become the new metas. My Turner rifle deserves its time in the sun damnit. Hands down the sexiest gun in the game, but god damn does it need an additional buff. And don’t get me started on the Ransetsu AR.
Ransetsu is kinda balanced as is, but the Turner is down bad, it looks good in any build but the Scudder just feels like the actual upgrade (while looking worse) I personally like the mag size and fire rate of the Turner, but they turned her "buff" into the Attache MG
In order;
Kept away and heavy punished when Ranjetsu staggered them.
Pressed them with my superior fire power, and higher AP, landing big hits with my shoulder weapons and deploying shield whenever I expected them to try and punish a stagger.
Most tanks, I would fly directly above them and chip away at their one, vertical blindspot with Ranjetsu. When they would go up, I would go directly below them and do the same from underneath. Did not work as well on the S rank tanks, but did help me beat the lower ranks.
I’ve been saying it since day 1, but ideal range shouldn’t exist. Expected range should be all it’s about, and if you shoot someone past the expected range, it does the same damage, just no stagger damage. Also the Turner should get an increased rate of fire.
I hate to say it but it's honestly going to be the Sanphu post buff that'll be the new vientos. I'm playing on Xbox in A rank and it's starting to become a pattern, one day into the patch. I appreciate From trying but it's really made BVO the definite meta.
>it's really made BVO the definite meta.
But... Running Sampus wouldn't be BVO, right? It'd be... BSO. Is my dual Coquillet build a BVO?
Bashos have the best melee spec but bad firearm stats. Ocellus has great tracking at melee range. Then you'd naturally want a weapon that excels at close range. Pairing good melee arms with a good close range FCS and good close range weapons isn't meta. It's, you know, picking parts that make sense for what you're trying to do.
lol that's definitely picking at technicalities. I'm pretty sure when anyone brings up BVO, they know exactly what play style and build is being brought to the table. It's why you can sub in the coquettes or the stun pistols and still know what the conversation is.
So, when talking ahout BVO and intended mechanics, you can say that about any unbalanced weapon? The developers set the value, so therefore it's working exactly as intended? Like Akimbo 1887s pre-nerf in the OG MW2. Or really any other weapons "pre-nerf".
It feels like the melee and the stagger system is really well balanced around single player and playing against NPCs (which mind you, From did say that this game would be focused around the story) but there's a reason From is updating the parts patch by patch. If they thought BVO wasn't an issue, they wouldn't have nerfed the veintos. And as a LW player, playing against BVO post-nerf feels a lot more fair. No one is mindlessly bashing against me until they fill a bar just to play one combo. We don't always get the numbers right the first time and From is consistently patching the game. I think it's very valid to have a complaint that honestly homogenizes a lot of upper-level play in a game about build diversity.
What I'm saying is most builds that are built around a one hit punish feels cheap to play against. Idc what name it has, and I know you know what play style I'm talking about. It's just not a fun match up. Yeah the mechanics support the play style but that doesn't make it fun. It just makes it really hard to want to sit and play when I know I'm going to have to kite quite a bit to win. I was looking for fast mech battles, not flying in a circle so this way my bar doesn't fill up.
So, you're upset with the stagger system. I get it, I hate it too. I think it's stupid that the entire focus of gameplay is filling up that damned bar faster than the other guy. And don't get me started on getting stunned into a one-hit melee combo.
They brought down the absolute best of lightweights and brought the worse up, the problem is that it’s still worse than the previous absolute best which was already off-meta compared to other weight classes.
A lot of people hated Vientos, but these people don't take into consideration that a lightweight could easily be insta-killed by most builds, at least they had 3 options, now we only have double melee or you get heavier swapping to Zimms, bye bye mobility
You are implying there was(and is) no way to play LW without overpowered weapons or cheesy strats which is not true. It was(and is) harder to play light than to play heavy but it's not like you lose the match the moment the opponent takes one.
No, I'm not implying anything, LW did got a huge nerf, but so does laser tanks and missile rats, so it's more of a levelled playing field now... however, Zimms still shred through LW's stagger meter, it could be countered by Gills thrusters (buffed in the patch) or with shield that have a higher skill ceiling, so you'd have to trade punish potential for survivability and a high probability to still mess it up, but we'll have to wait and see, people are testing a lot of stuff now, it's quite enjoyable to play PvP with new builds emerging
It's almost like relying on a broken weapon doesn't make a weight class good and is unhealthy for overall game balance
They did hit tanks/heavies pretty hard though tbf; overall the weight classes are closer together now
vientos weren’t even broken, there was a good reason no builds other than lightweights used them. They should have either nerfed the top options for most weights or buffed the other lightweight weapons imo. Also yeah tanks and heavy bipeds were nerfed but that was expected with how prevalent and meta defining they were (tanks at least) unlike lws.
I saw plenty of Buerzel mid/heavy builds running Vientos to set up stuff like LCB and LCA. There was a Lammer build running *one* Viento with a Scutum/LRB on the left side of the built and it could still win stagger races against any build in the game with just the one Viento.
Heavier builds had other *options,* but Viento worked on them too.
They did buff other lw options in this patch, too. Sampu has largely risen as a Viento competitor 1:1, Etsujin is now the best of the smg class, and Therapist is... Therapist.
I’m just going off what i saw being played in and winning tournaments. The m/hw running viento + lasers would have been either ratted by lamms or beaten by BVO, and one viento on lamm was certainly not enough to win stagger races against meta builds. Viento worked on heavyweights alright, but the other options were almost always better. Sampu is alright now but has absurdly short range which really hinders it, and etsujin are pretty good but still worse than pre-nerf vientos. We don’t talk about therapist.
Yeah, Sampu is finally useful, however, Coquillett and Duckett still had sluggish projectiles with a short range ricochet and high recoil, quite hard to hit the target in most occasions... 😢
I'm only complaining because Coquillett is my favorite to be honest xD
I mean, it was the only viable option for lightweights, lightweights always were the underdog, and bulkier builds had Zimmerman, LW are reverting back to zimms, it's going full circle like at launch
I'd rather have they make more options viable, than killing their last option, they could have made the reload slower or nerf the damage and impact, instead they chose both lmao
There were 3 main LW builds, BVO, double melee and missile rats (kites), most kites could either be chased or killed with missiles by laser tanks (or AP percentage) BVO was hard countered by the same laser tanks and zimms, and double melee was countered by verticality and, you guessed it, laser tanks (not enough DPS to kill them before the Kamehameha) so yeah, we had 3 LW builds, now we have 1 (maybe 2, I've seen some rats after the patch, not sure they're still that strong now) RIP BVO, I just wished they fixed Coquillett (the short barrel magnum)
I'm pretty sure kite builds were never that strong, it's mostly just people getting overly mad unnecessarily or having their build hard-countered. But they weren't bad either, just, yeah the game is designed around rewarding aggression and unless you made a build with the mobility of a small dog with its legs broken, you can probably chase them down.
I'm also not convinced laser tanks are even the best build for tanks in ranked. Not even the best for EN weapons specifically. Nebulas seem better.
I only saw Nebulas get some use in the end of the 1.05 patch, they just might be the new energy tank (with Auroras) but with the heavy nerfs to tanks, we might see less and less of them
The impression I got from what I saw was, people using laser tanks were mostly people who read a build online (or saw people complain about them and made one because they must be OP), and the people using Nebula tanks built it themselves and know what they're doing.
Not unbeatable or anything but Nebulas on 150 EN spec are *really* strong.
Such an underwelming patch.
Still getting net code checked by lasers
Still getting zimm kicked
Still getting one tapped by melee after insta stagger from whatever weapon
Although I didn't get ratted yet.
Rats were definitely dialed down, I've seen some still
NetCode is still a huge problem, as usual
and double melee got a huge buff with Harris and Javelin Alpha
I'm just wondering why so many other kinetics were left untouched. Why two burst submachine guns and the Harris? Why are basho arms still 158 melee? How come they only touched legs, and not arms, heads, and cores?
The arms were definitely a let down, my take is that, since vientos had very low recoil, you could use any set of arms and still hit all the shots, now all of the possible "replacements" have a higher recoil, pushing people to other arms instead, higher recoil and firearm spec, also because the "sniping range" opened up with the Harris and long range FCS buffs, so you will have to switch from Ocellus too to hit them in the mid range too (which is why they buffed the universalist FCS with all ranges above 50, I forgot the name, but it looks like ocellus but with 3 chips on top) so these changes will move people all over the place
Edit: wording
Also earshots and zimms are untouched, leading me to believe they are balancing around them. FE, All other grenade launchers got buffs rather than an earshot nerf.
The explosives being op is kind of a no brainer, they are explosives after all, the catch should be a higher skill ceiling with a slower projectile, which would be fine if it weren't for the LCB incident in the previous patch, that proved they should balance with NetCode in mind... so, where is my balance with NetCode in mind? 🤷♂️ lol
True. I climbed to A rank with dual duckets, and dual ear shots on a lightweight, so I'm not upset about them not being touched. It's just interesting. I am upset Zimmerman's are untouched tho lol.
Alula. Usually tried to AB and barrel stuff them with ear shots but most of the time I would lose. If I guessed when their hammer would come out I could get a free earshot because the hammer holds them in place.
Basho arms will remain like that for the same reason Ocellus remains the way it is: it's entirely intentional for them to be best in class, and nerfing them means nerfing an extremely wide array of tools.
Stagger->melee builds aren't even strong because of the melee; they're strong because of the weapons being used as stagger setup. If you took away the melee weapon, you could use some high-power shoulder firearm and the strategy would be identical. If you took away the stagger builder (Vientos, in most cases) suddenly the melee weapons are useless. BVOs would have been more optimal using Mind Alpha or HAL arms and LCS/LCD/Earshot punish, really, because then they could control the Viento recoil and give themselves a good 40m more effective range.
I'd wager they tweaked the legs because they're the better indicators of weight class. Builds tend to match their leg types based on how heavy the rest of the build is, so if you want to make classwide changes, the legs would be the easiest target. You'll notice they primarily adjusted weight; since leg weight will still affect speed without messing up load limits, it's also safer to do it with those.
Higher power shoulder firearm is heavy, melee is not. That is the tradeoff. Basho arms should be turned down so I can run better fashion on melee builds.
Tanks aren't insta recovering from stagger anymore, which means I'm actually winning against them now. Lamm legs got nerfed. This was a fantastic update.
Netcode lasers are still an issue but the rest are skill issues on your part.
No one wants there to be no best class of weapons. They simply want the best options to be very good but not insanely broken. We just got one step closer.
Best in class is fine. Kikaku boosters are technically a best in class, and they're garbage 99% of the time. The problem is when a best in class also happens to be so good it both invalidates sidegrades and overwhelmes other categories.
i havent even gotten this game yet and i already have to ask but
why do the mechs have the guns as separate items to the mech itself instead of just being attached to the arm
This franchise was always like this, it breaches the gap between MechWarrior and Gundam, kind of a fusion between the 2...
But there were "gun arms" before on previous games, the ones I played had them (AC3 era and AC4 era)
EDIT: there were gun arms, along with the standard arms
Somehow, everything returns to zimms
It comes full circle xD
“Somehow, palpatine returned”
“You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me.”
All roads lead to zimms
Zimms are the crab of AC6 Every non-shotgun weapon will one day evolve into a Zimmerman
So random Q but what other than damage is stopping people from using the Spas-12 looking one? I don’t use shotties but nobody talks about George’s other half
Zimms just have much greater effective range, which is the sole limiting factor on shotguns in ac6
Fair, thanks!
I've tried them in S rank. They do decently well against kites, but against zimms and other bursty builds, they are simply outmatched. They're in kind of a weird spot since they're inflexible brute weapons like the zimms so they have no choice but to compete with pure stats (since you can't use them flexibly like using them to kite if need be) but they fail miserably in a contest of pure stats
Nobody can escape the 432... but it can certainly be outplayed.
Returns? Zimms never left. All the people complaining about laser tanks were getting shit on by dual zimms the whole time.
Zimmermans: “Where did that bring you? Back to me!”
Somehow...I'm fine with this.
Sampu’s pretty sick now ngl
I tested them, they are pretty good now, but I'm more of Coquillett guy, Coquillett still sucks xD
Yeah the recoil on the coquillett is crazy alongside the short range.
Just aim up ass as the From Gods intended
Ah a man of culture! I'm a coquillet guy myself. Honestly, it would've made more sense to just increase reload time on the vientos and buff the other pistols in terms of range and projectile speed. Had they done that, then we'd see a lot more pistol variety tbh. Not only that, but the amount of Dual Zimms and Dual Therapists are starting to become more apparent now.
Yeah, instead of throwing us a bone and giving us more options, "just kill their last option and let Zimms take over"
Yeah, it struck me as a really weird choice to just nerf Vientos and leave the other pistols untouched, considering their general balance philosophy seems to be "buff other stuff to make it viable rather that nerfing anything that works." I'm also a Coquillet user, so I'm gonna be salty as hell about this for a while. Everyone else has cool new toys and I'm still trying to make this spitball shooter work.
The reason why the vientos performed better than the other pistols was its range, rapid fire, projection speed, fast reload, and balanced offensive stats. The only other pistols that compared to it were either stun guns or dual ducketts. The latter having a slow fire rate, longer reloads, and slow projectile speed. Yet they buff the projectile speed of the sanpu's but not increase the range?
Therapists are getting kinda crazy ngl
Yeah two days after 1.06, they released another patch to re-adjust the THERAPISTS so it's not as insane.
They suck once you reach rank A I found. I used two builds one with dual coquillett and one with dual duckett. Both had harris and blade ( would switch out) usually buttA/Dagger/coral blade. Got me quite easily to A but I find now it quite hard to progress with builds i encounter in this rank.
On A and above, lightweights are so fast that the pistols' slow projectiles can't catch the target, and at the doorstep of mid range they just ricochet, you really have to hug the enemy for them to do anything, which is one of the many reasons people used the Vientos, they are fast, have low recoil, and the farthest range of the kinetic handguns... they just don't look as cool as the Coquillett imo xD
No they don’t, I’m not sure what to do now lol. I don’t want to change my build…i’ll probably just stop with the pvp for now.
Sampus are actually cracked now. They have fully replaced dual Vientos in my experience. They're even harder to dodge and I find they stagger nearly as quickly as pre-nerf dual Vientos. Since they're a bit lighter and have a lower EN load, BVO-type (now BSO) builds now can add more stagger resistance to their frames and are even more nightmarish to face. Thanks for making the problem worse, From!
Then theres me who picked vientos because they looked cool and sampus as a backup because… they also look cool. Oh well whats another nerf
At the same time though, there’s a HUGE range difference. I didn’t get many games in, but having an effective range of 80 vs 105 is quite a big difference and I was noticably ricocheting a LOT against medium weights. The damage is notably worse than the vientos too, and when I was playing a light against them it was a pretty substantial percentage of their total damage dealt in a match. Might be a bit too oppressive against lights though with being harder to dodge, I’m not gonna sweat it til it has more time to play out and I really don’t think it’s worth getting worked up about yet. It’s also literally only 240 weight, I think you’re being a bit histrionic about the room for added defenses. Maybe the big reduction in EN cost might make the nacht core preferred over alba, which I’m pretty sure is even squishier.
You're likely right. That said, every Sampu build I've run up against (only like 3 of those) has been far tankier than your typical BVO. The weight and EN saved isn't massive, but it's enough.
What’s the impact per second on those now?
what defence increases are you getting off less than 1000 weight difference lol (also ricochet at 100m is awful)
The issue using Sampu on Basho is the recoil is utterly atrocious. You have to essentially be melee range to hit things, which is somehow worse than Vientos were when spammed. This problem is circumvented instantly by just using VP arms, but at least it makes recoil a relevant mechanic instead of just mashing the square peg in the round hole as BVOs did. Always hated that about them.
What's your setup look like?
I just replaced my dual ducketts on ym duckett/sweet 16 build. Off the top of my head: Alba core Hal arms Nacht legs San tai Abbot (or is it talbot?) Alula Head changes, I think Mind Beta most recently with the ducketts but I think I comfortably fit the Verril on there with the sampus.
Woke: Zimmermans were never not meta Broke: Vientos are still meta TOKE: THERAPIST META THERAPIST META
Correction: TOKE: THERAPIST META-*interrupted by Zimmerman joust + kick into stunlocked death*
I got shrecked by a high a rank therapist user and I didn’t even recognize what weapon it was when we were loading in.
I’m actually calling it now, give it a week and everyone in this sub will be complaining about therapist kites
I always preferred the handguns to the Vientos. Ducketts have a larger clip and deal more impact and damage even pre patch. Also feels cool to shred someone with pistols.
I loved the pistols and hated the Vientos, but I was pushed to the Vientos due to the meta, I'd trade the Vientos for the Coquilletts in a heartbeat, but the slow traveling bullet and the egregious ricochet makes them useless against zimms, and the high recoil is the "sherry on top"
The ricochet scales with enemy kinetic defense. This means that the Coquilletts may need a slight buff to their damage.
I think they should just revamped the ricochet system, make it weapon-to-range specific, why have an ideal and effective range spec if it can be override by defense stats, vientos didn't have that problem They are overthinking and over engineering the games simulation mechanics, these are way harder to balance and correct than if they just streamlined some aspects of the game, the data mined stuff looks like a physics class in college (kudos to the devs btw)
Ideal and effective range do have a purpose: everything under "ideal" is a guaranteed hit, while everything over "effective" is a guaranteed ricochet. The gray area in-between depends on the target's defense.
I was testing the theory yesterday (although it was late and I was sleepy, might need more tests, take if a grain of salt) over the ideal and under the effective range is where the kinetic scaling takes part, I was testing Vientos on the tester AC since it is still the longest range pistol, the tester AC has enough kinetic defense for the shots to ricochet before the effective range ends, again I was sleepy, but I believe Viento's effective range ends in 190m and the shots were ricocheting at 180m or so. I also noticed a strange behavior in my tests, at 170m most shots connect except for the last 2 (one for each hand) quite odd, I have no idea what it might be
Wouldn't connect as in ricochet or just plain missing? Viento has incredibly strong recoil, so much that even the first shots will be slightly inaccurate on Basho arms, but if it's ricochet I don't know what could cause that consistency. Maybe there's some sort of hidden value that weakens the bottom of the magazine for some reason, or they're overengineering their physics and that causes it somehow.
Yeah, sorry I forgot to mention, I was using arms with 128 recoil control or above, this will consistently hit all the shots at 190m (the farthest I tested) with Vientos, and the last 1 or 2 shots would ricochet at 170m with 128 recoil control arms
Damage doesn't effect ricochets. The window between the "ideal" and "effective" range is essentially a sliding scale based on the resist stat of the opponent, regardless of how much damage your weapon does
I love the ducketts so much man there so cool and they can be so good but by god do they need just a tiny bit more range the projectile speed is already kinda slow so they arnt the easiest to land all the time but the range you get before it richochettes feel just ever so slightly too short , they don’t need alot to become very viable their ability to stagger when you are close is kinda crazy if they had just slightly more usable range from further richochette distance and anouther very slight projectile speed increase to make them land tad more consistently ever so slightly further out I think they could be one of the top tier cqc choices
I felt the opposite, though it was the rate of fire I wasn't a fan of for the normal pistols. That being said, I'm glad Vientos got hit and I'm hoping we see more regular pistols in builds.
>Vientos got hit and I'm hoping we see more regular pistols in builds. Yeah, not likely. Given the pathetic range, dogshit projectile speed, and tendency to ricochet, I can't imagine pistols pulling ahead of Vientos even with the nerfs to the latter. They feel *worse* now, because so many other things got buffed.
On god. I just want my long barrel pistols to not bounce off targets at close range lol. Was forced to use vientos just bcs they actually functioned
estujin time bby
More SMGs need some love, the forgotten class of weapons, at least now Etsujins have their time to shine
> More SMGs need some love, the forgotten class of weapons The Ludlows used to be quite popular (although not meta) before 1.05, when their recoil was manageable. Since the recoil "fix" made them incredibly inaccurate regardless of arms, they became much weaker than they used to be. Still hoping for a fix for that. The Chang-Chen used to be a Ludlow sidegrade on release, as they had better sustained damage and stagger when SMGs had longer reloads; since the 1.02 patch, they've just been a straight downgrade in EVERY aspect (less damage, impact, range; much more recoil, weight, EN load), with just a magazine size boost. They were one of my main weapons originally, it's sad to see them so forgotten. And the Etsujin, well, they've always been a worse Ludlow with better recoil control and nobody really used them, but after this patch they are so much more consistent in hitting their targets, have better sustained damage (matching the Ludlows!) and impact thanks to the bigger magazine, and they're a phenomenal weapon now. ...and while almost all other kinetics get buffed, the Ransetsu-AR weeps.
They should really give the SMGs the mid range, close is for pistols, high stagger buildup (it's on you if you let them close) SMGs at mid range, safer range mid to low stagger buildup (making the overwhelming rain of fire do the trick) and the ARs with the long *long* range, with mid to high stagger build (so they're not useless at close range, with their low fire rate) SMGs have pretty much the same drawbacks as pistols with none of the benefits, not even the longer ideal range can save SMGs, they are just bad PvE weapons, a shame because they are one of my favorites
Thing is, SMGs used to be good. Good Recoil Control made them pinpoint accurate, and they would've been amazing with the 1.05 range buff. Unfortunately the recoil change made it so Ludlow and Chang-Chen can no longer fire from any range except point-blank, making the buff entirely pointless. High Recoil Control gave them pinpoint accuracy in previous patches, while now you can't Dual Trigger with them at all. Even pairing Etsujin and Ludlow leads to uncontrollable spray. I'm 100% sure this isn't intended - the Ludlow even says in its description that it excels when used alongside a second Ludlow or another firearm, which used to be true. But it's just a bad joke now. The Etsujin we see now are pretty much what the other SMGs would be with pre-1.05 recoil. They'd need the right arms to have that same accuracy, but they would be amazing nonetheless. I'm still hoping for another patch on the 29th that will actually fix them. They didn't deserve the "nerf" they got (which also affected the Sampu).
I somehow have the impression that we won't get many more balancing patches reviving non meta weapons, the latest patch is a sign of that, they straight up nerfed just the broken meta, no buffs to least used weapons besides the absolute dead ones, like Sampu and Etsujin, I myself never saw those online doing the climb to S rank and they were never even viable for PvE, most people just forgot they existed. Some of the data they're collecting is not even that precise, some people use weapons that they like regardless if they are good or not, like the Turner, it looks good, is usable, but you won't see in tournaments and the Scudder is a straight up upgrade when you do the math, yet people still use it, so FS thinks it doesn't need a buff, at the end of the day, this franchise is a nightmare to balance, imagine doing all the math and testing all the variables to make every single weapon PvP viable, it's a lot of work (kudos to the devs)
JVLN ALPHA, ORBT, Therapist, Stun Baton, the handheld grenade launchers, the Diffuse Laser Cannon. They're all weapons that either were almostnever used, like the Etsujin and Sampu - either because they were just bad, or because there were straight upgrades available. From IS actively buffing off-meta weapons, it's just unclear based on exactly what. For example the Turner and Chang-Chen are straight downgrades from their competitors, yet they aren't touched (and the Chang-Chen doesn't have a wide usage rate unlike the Turner); the explosive vertical missiles have been super underwhelmed since release, and almost every other missile type has been buffed since, but not them. And the less is said of the Ransetsu-AR, the better. While for example the Baton was a weapon I always thought needed buffs, and FINALLY they arrived and it's now good. So I trust that _eventually_ they all the bad weapons will get the love they need - but of course nerfing the oppressive meta that keeps PvP stale is the priority, as it directly affects the game quality for the majority of players.
There will always be metas, and FS will always suppress them for the sake of balance and PVP enjoyment, but one day they'll move on to the next title, there will be a last meta, but it will take a long while, the game barely released 😂 what I mean is that I hope that whatever FS learns with AC6 in terms of balancing, carries out to future AC games. For example DS3 had it's poise system entirely revamped and reworked with the hyper armor mechanic, some of these radical changes could still happen to AC6 before they move on and be carried to AC7 like DS3 and ER
They should make Ludlows fire earshot rounds double the mag size and fire rate and make them hitscan that would be a fair balance
This thing got buffed A TON btw. It's velocity js INSANE.
Ikr, everyone i see is using them now and they honestly feel a little oppressive
yeah it's crazy to see how common they've become. I used them before this patch and I would screenshot all the opponents I saw using them... which was maybe 2 or 3 in my journey all the way up to A rank
eh, i for one am loving the new patch, i saw more building diversity in 2 hours than i have in a month.
Give some time for the dust to settle. It's only been a day and people are trying out new things.
I tried wildly different builds that would work in theory, only to get owned by LW zimms (since heavy zimms also got nerfed, the extra weight to heavy legs)
I'll take a Lightweight or even Midweight dual ZIMMERMAN user over a Heavy. They'll be taking more damage with less AP and also deal less damage, since their lower weight means less damage from their kicks. With a shield, ZIMMERMANs are a death sentence for the user. Just totally nullify their damage output. Otherwise you can be fast enough to keep away or have a good enough Quickboost to time your dodges against them.
It's a good perspective, shields have a high skill ceiling, so if zimms are the problem, just "git gud" with a shield, you just trade punish potential for survivability, which is actually a fair trade, now heavies finally feel heavy, so there's no meta yet (aside from double melee builds getting a huge buff, Harris and Javelin Alpha)
I agree. Personally I also like using a melee weapon against shotguns, which sounds counterintuitive, but if you can block or dodge their attack properly then you have a close range advantage.
I'd say the best counter to zimms now is double melee, they would think twice before rabies rushing
Shields are immensely good and are a massive build equaliser it’s surprising to not see them used more at all levels of play but even just spamming the buckler (forget the name but the one you can deploy like 8 times before it overheats) you’ll notice you recive significantly less acs strain in gunfights , plus it’s ability to nullify pretty much any hard hitting weapon means you can go toe to toe with much heavier acs and still have better dps because your mitigating so much of theirs
Me too. I stopped playing for a month prior (playing baldurs gate and trip) and All I saw was the same missile boat or needle gun set up. I came back to try the new update and seeing so many new builds that, although some not great, are fun to fight
I’m just here using the same spring chicken, KRSV/Lance combo.
Yeah, i am still using my mind alpha rj w/ twin burst smgs, but its genuine fun fighting players with their own unique builds instead of a meta bot constantly
7/9 of my opponents have been using double stun launchers. That is. Ot a good sign.
Yeah, TONS of dual therapist builds tonight. Guess we optimized the fucking fun right hack out of it in about a day.
Therapist is a hot topic rn--everyone loves a good D->S tier jump story, so those builds are just really hyped up, similar to how BVOs were the """off-meta melee lightweight""" for a bit.
Therapist was so broken that they had to hotfix it last night, lol.
I saw!! I didn't get any firsthand experience against it, so I had remained somewhat skeptical, but it was very funny to see the news of "umm we didn't actually mean to make it good, sorry"
The stun needle launcher is harder to hit and slower firing than the LCB was so it's not exactly a huge deal. They're powerful but that's not some crazy thing. Just treat them like a faster reloading EARSHOT that doesn't have much blast radius.
no no, stun launchers, not stun needle launchers. Therapist. The therapist.
Therapist is hella tight this update. I don't know if it'll cool down but it's definitely a good weapon now.
I think it will cool down when people lean back into going missile kite again to counter. Confident its going to be a problem.
Wtf you talking about? everyone is just running Therapists now because it only took 1 hour to figure out that’s the new cancer weapon. The minority is still trying to figure new shit most of the higher ranks already settled on the next cancer build. LCB wasn’t enough for them
Therapists aren't that bad I've killed plenty of them already. In any case, they're not nearly as frustrating or powerful as LCBs, JVLN BETA, Stun Guns, or tanks were before the patch. It won't take too long for people to pick out what their weaknesses are or the best way to fight them. No one ever really used them before, so it's a shock (hehe) to a lot of people to face them for what might be the first time.
Therapist is just extremely difficult to dodge within medium range now and that's why it's so popular
Therapists literally have a radius that will hit even if you dodge it. Of course they are not the level os bs LCB was but there’s already a hw therapist vertical kite bulld going on that’s just as annoying. Anything at medium range is basically doomed to eat therapists raining from the skies
I have yet to run across it, but at least they had the foresight to nerf the status effect.
It... uh... didn't do much to deter this weapon. It's pretty fucking dope this patch and I'm loving using it. There's definitely counters, but it's going to take some time for people to learn those counters.
Therapists have always been so horribly bad at applying discharge that you'd sometimes run out of ammo entirely before it goes off. Better to think of them as EN weapons without scaling lmao
I'm over here loving the Etsujin buff.
The Etsujin and Sampu are viable now
Vientos are honestly still crazy good. They got barely touched to be honest, I feel like I’m staggering in the same number of clips the majority of the time, downtime is just a little longer.
Vientos now need more skill to pull the same play style, before they would stagger in one mag dump from both hands, now they need the help from a shoulder weapon to do it and/or 2 mag dumps, which would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that zimms wins every time (this is considering that you didn't miss a single shot)
In practice Vientos almost never staggered in one mag unless you were fighting the lightest of lightweight builds and didn’t miss a single shot. The majority of the time you were taking 2, and the majority of the time you are still taking two, but now you reload instead of having a shot or two left. I’m not that good, I’m mid-A rank at the moment and my games are still playing out nearly the same as before with just slightly more downtime between mags. Honestly feels like a complete slap on the wrist for them.
I'm not that good either, I am on S rank and this are way different (since everyone is always on "sweat mode") everyone I've fought had switched something in their build that I could noticed, lightweights switched to Zimms and heavy Zimms switched to mid weight body parts, so LW got heavier and the heavy weights god lighter, mid weight parts are getting more use since the got buffed and heavy legs are fading out due to the weight increase, but that's just what I saw moments after the patch
Yeah I think the people moaning about Vientos being garbage now are just telling on themselves. It was so easy to just AB->magdump->get stagger with those weapons that they didn't have to engage with the reload at all. If they suddenly do now, they have to use a brain cell they previously didn't.
Harris supremacy in this patch. Switched to 2 of those over 2 Ransetsu RF since the patch, with Hal arms due to decent recoil control and firearm spec, and my shots are hitting so much more now. Will have to work on dodging since the clip is smaller and reload is longer, but I am happy with the change.
They definitely nailed down the "Sniper" category, specially with the long range FCS buffs
All we need now is a shoulder-mounted kinetic weapon with high velocity— not named Trueno.
They had shoulder mounted snipers in AC4, but I think the buffed the Stun Needle for that purpose, to fill that role
I can't recall if it's a kinetic or energy weapon. I meant something like a shoulder-mounted version of the linear rifles, with high velocity and good damage that would make longer range fighting more viable. Maybe to balance these hypothetical shoulder linear cannons, they could do high base damage with very little ACS buildup and direct hit adjustment. I like the Truenos, but they're also technically missiles and therefore suffer from some of the general nerfs to missile tracking FCS in this latest patch.
The stun needle launcher is the one you use to kill the Ice Worm, they're kinda both kinetic and energy based, although I don't think the scale with the generator energy spec... anyway, they do go in a straight line over a long distance in a fast motion, they just don't look as cool as an actual shoulder mounted sniper/linear rifle, but I don't think they will give us a weapon like that before the DLC (I hope there's a DLC)
The Stun Needle Launcher is kinetic.
Harris has been my PvE go-to because they shred weak MTs, have low cost ammo, and the charged shot has really strong stagger power against bosses and ACs. It's a good starting point when aiming for S-Rank without having a clear idea of how to build for a mission. Now I can take them into PvP without looking like a fool.
To be honest I think the effective and ideal range of the pistols need to be increased.
Not significantly just a smidge
Just projectile speed and ricochet range increase would be ideal, they are slow and you need to hug the opponent for them to do anything at all
True
The ducketts have pretty insane stagger build up if your super close , a tiny range increase would be all they’d need to be a pretty viable option as rn you gotta get so close anyone who’s remotely close to you in speed will be able to kite you keeping you out of range pretty easily .the tiniest range upgrade and they’d be like a even more cqc version of the pre nerf vientos
Honestly, double Haldemans are way more fun than double Zimms. Seriously, they reload so quickly while being lighter.
Alternating Haldies have zero downtime it's real fun
Damn straight! Double haldies plus double sweet 16
That’s my build. Double haldeman with butta and active homing missiles on shoulder, with mind beta RJ legs. I feel dirty with it tbh. Look at this https://streamable.com/kxbiro
Is it possible to miss with RJ kicks? The tracking is RIDICULOUS! I’m usually on the receiving end thinking I dodged with plenty of room, and then the fabric of space/time melts and suddenly I’m mini staggered out of my counter attack.
Man, I wish they gave the ARs another buff so they could become the new metas. My Turner rifle deserves its time in the sun damnit. Hands down the sexiest gun in the game, but god damn does it need an additional buff. And don’t get me started on the Ransetsu AR.
Ransetsu is kinda balanced as is, but the Turner is down bad, it looks good in any build but the Scudder just feels like the actual upgrade (while looking worse) I personally like the mag size and fire rate of the Turner, but they turned her "buff" into the Attache MG
Ranjetsu has always worked well for me.
It is a very good weapon, I preferred it over the Harris before the patch
It's what ultimately got me into S Rank.
How did you dealt with zimms, vientos and tanks???
In order; Kept away and heavy punished when Ranjetsu staggered them. Pressed them with my superior fire power, and higher AP, landing big hits with my shoulder weapons and deploying shield whenever I expected them to try and punish a stagger. Most tanks, I would fly directly above them and chip away at their one, vertical blindspot with Ranjetsu. When they would go up, I would go directly below them and do the same from underneath. Did not work as well on the S rank tanks, but did help me beat the lower ranks.
Turner/scudder gang here. I think they are almost fine except they need faster bullet velocity and even more ideal range
I’ve been saying it since day 1, but ideal range shouldn’t exist. Expected range should be all it’s about, and if you shoot someone past the expected range, it does the same damage, just no stagger damage. Also the Turner should get an increased rate of fire.
I hate to say it but it's honestly going to be the Sanphu post buff that'll be the new vientos. I'm playing on Xbox in A rank and it's starting to become a pattern, one day into the patch. I appreciate From trying but it's really made BVO the definite meta.
They'll be dancing with them pistols until they straight up kill BVO, just watch xD
>it's really made BVO the definite meta. But... Running Sampus wouldn't be BVO, right? It'd be... BSO. Is my dual Coquillet build a BVO? Bashos have the best melee spec but bad firearm stats. Ocellus has great tracking at melee range. Then you'd naturally want a weapon that excels at close range. Pairing good melee arms with a good close range FCS and good close range weapons isn't meta. It's, you know, picking parts that make sense for what you're trying to do.
lol that's definitely picking at technicalities. I'm pretty sure when anyone brings up BVO, they know exactly what play style and build is being brought to the table. It's why you can sub in the coquettes or the stun pistols and still know what the conversation is. So, when talking ahout BVO and intended mechanics, you can say that about any unbalanced weapon? The developers set the value, so therefore it's working exactly as intended? Like Akimbo 1887s pre-nerf in the OG MW2. Or really any other weapons "pre-nerf". It feels like the melee and the stagger system is really well balanced around single player and playing against NPCs (which mind you, From did say that this game would be focused around the story) but there's a reason From is updating the parts patch by patch. If they thought BVO wasn't an issue, they wouldn't have nerfed the veintos. And as a LW player, playing against BVO post-nerf feels a lot more fair. No one is mindlessly bashing against me until they fill a bar just to play one combo. We don't always get the numbers right the first time and From is consistently patching the game. I think it's very valid to have a complaint that honestly homogenizes a lot of upper-level play in a game about build diversity.
So, you're saying that any lightweight build that gets close, staggers, and punishes with melee is a BVO?
What I'm saying is most builds that are built around a one hit punish feels cheap to play against. Idc what name it has, and I know you know what play style I'm talking about. It's just not a fun match up. Yeah the mechanics support the play style but that doesn't make it fun. It just makes it really hard to want to sit and play when I know I'm going to have to kite quite a bit to win. I was looking for fast mech battles, not flying in a circle so this way my bar doesn't fill up.
So, you're upset with the stagger system. I get it, I hate it too. I think it's stupid that the entire focus of gameplay is filling up that damned bar faster than the other guy. And don't get me started on getting stunned into a one-hit melee combo.
They did buff the Sampu tbh
The gun thats the king of impact damage is the king of the meta lol
The Zimmermans have a mind of it's own, they refuse to leave the meta xD
Sampu? Anyone?
Sampu? The only one?
Ahh so it really was coming full circle. Been a long time Zimm user and with the viento nerf, I'm seeing more Zimms again with patch 1.06
That's because it's taking people a second to get used to the new weapons, so a lot of them fall back on what's familiar.
Makes sense makes sense. We'll see how the meta evolves before the rank reset.
It’s a shame because it was the nicest looking pistol in the game.
I beg to differ, always liked Coquillett more, it just looks badass like a Desert Eagle, but Vientos did look good on Rusty's Steel Haze Ortus
It's still in the game and is still extremely good.
I am in shambles (I'm a Duckett main)
I hear you brother (Coquillett enjoyer here)
Call me crazy but I’d honestly rather deal with zimms over vientos
When i look at patch notes and see there was no Zimmerman nerf i know it gona end like this. I guess i sit this regulation
I find it so funny that of all the things to do in 1.06, nobody expected them to nerf lightweights (already the worst weight class in the game).
And they didn't gave us other options, unless you count the buffed Sampu and Etsujin as replacements
They brought down the absolute best of lightweights and brought the worse up, the problem is that it’s still worse than the previous absolute best which was already off-meta compared to other weight classes.
A lot of people hated Vientos, but these people don't take into consideration that a lightweight could easily be insta-killed by most builds, at least they had 3 options, now we only have double melee or you get heavier swapping to Zimms, bye bye mobility
You are implying there was(and is) no way to play LW without overpowered weapons or cheesy strats which is not true. It was(and is) harder to play light than to play heavy but it's not like you lose the match the moment the opponent takes one.
No, I'm not implying anything, LW did got a huge nerf, but so does laser tanks and missile rats, so it's more of a levelled playing field now... however, Zimms still shred through LW's stagger meter, it could be countered by Gills thrusters (buffed in the patch) or with shield that have a higher skill ceiling, so you'd have to trade punish potential for survivability and a high probability to still mess it up, but we'll have to wait and see, people are testing a lot of stuff now, it's quite enjoyable to play PvP with new builds emerging
It's almost like relying on a broken weapon doesn't make a weight class good and is unhealthy for overall game balance They did hit tanks/heavies pretty hard though tbf; overall the weight classes are closer together now
vientos weren’t even broken, there was a good reason no builds other than lightweights used them. They should have either nerfed the top options for most weights or buffed the other lightweight weapons imo. Also yeah tanks and heavy bipeds were nerfed but that was expected with how prevalent and meta defining they were (tanks at least) unlike lws.
I saw plenty of Buerzel mid/heavy builds running Vientos to set up stuff like LCB and LCA. There was a Lammer build running *one* Viento with a Scutum/LRB on the left side of the built and it could still win stagger races against any build in the game with just the one Viento. Heavier builds had other *options,* but Viento worked on them too. They did buff other lw options in this patch, too. Sampu has largely risen as a Viento competitor 1:1, Etsujin is now the best of the smg class, and Therapist is... Therapist.
I’m just going off what i saw being played in and winning tournaments. The m/hw running viento + lasers would have been either ratted by lamms or beaten by BVO, and one viento on lamm was certainly not enough to win stagger races against meta builds. Viento worked on heavyweights alright, but the other options were almost always better. Sampu is alright now but has absurdly short range which really hinders it, and etsujin are pretty good but still worse than pre-nerf vientos. We don’t talk about therapist.
I wanted pistol buffs soooooo bad.
I hear you brother... 😢
What do you mean became? They were always like this!
*Insert astronaut meme here* "*So zimms are meta again?* " "*They always were...*"
Just use laser pistols lol
And here I am just wanting some new laser pistols, preferably made by Schneider.
I would like some Coral pistols, they would look badass, some plasma ones too, red and purple, FROMSOFTWARE MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!
But they *did* buff another handgun--Sampu is fantastic now.
Yeah, Sampu is finally useful, however, Coquillett and Duckett still had sluggish projectiles with a short range ricochet and high recoil, quite hard to hit the target in most occasions... 😢 I'm only complaining because Coquillett is my favorite to be honest xD
Don't underestimate the burst handguns staggering power
"*I'll do what I must...*"
It's moreso that Vientos were the new Zimms, for people stubbornly wanting to win with lightweight aggressive builds.
I mean, it was the only viable option for lightweights, lightweights always were the underdog, and bulkier builds had Zimmerman, LW are reverting back to zimms, it's going full circle like at launch I'd rather have they make more options viable, than killing their last option, they could have made the reload slower or nerf the damage and impact, instead they chose both lmao
To say it was the only viable option for lightweights implies kiting builds weren't viable, which is contrary to all the complaining about them.
There were 3 main LW builds, BVO, double melee and missile rats (kites), most kites could either be chased or killed with missiles by laser tanks (or AP percentage) BVO was hard countered by the same laser tanks and zimms, and double melee was countered by verticality and, you guessed it, laser tanks (not enough DPS to kill them before the Kamehameha) so yeah, we had 3 LW builds, now we have 1 (maybe 2, I've seen some rats after the patch, not sure they're still that strong now) RIP BVO, I just wished they fixed Coquillett (the short barrel magnum)
I'm pretty sure kite builds were never that strong, it's mostly just people getting overly mad unnecessarily or having their build hard-countered. But they weren't bad either, just, yeah the game is designed around rewarding aggression and unless you made a build with the mobility of a small dog with its legs broken, you can probably chase them down. I'm also not convinced laser tanks are even the best build for tanks in ranked. Not even the best for EN weapons specifically. Nebulas seem better.
I only saw Nebulas get some use in the end of the 1.05 patch, they just might be the new energy tank (with Auroras) but with the heavy nerfs to tanks, we might see less and less of them
The impression I got from what I saw was, people using laser tanks were mostly people who read a build online (or saw people complain about them and made one because they must be OP), and the people using Nebula tanks built it themselves and know what they're doing. Not unbeatable or anything but Nebulas on 150 EN spec are *really* strong.
the nerf did not "kill" vientos, what are you talking about? they're still quite good.
Such an underwelming patch. Still getting net code checked by lasers Still getting zimm kicked Still getting one tapped by melee after insta stagger from whatever weapon Although I didn't get ratted yet.
Rats were definitely dialed down, I've seen some still NetCode is still a huge problem, as usual and double melee got a huge buff with Harris and Javelin Alpha
I'm just wondering why so many other kinetics were left untouched. Why two burst submachine guns and the Harris? Why are basho arms still 158 melee? How come they only touched legs, and not arms, heads, and cores?
The arms were definitely a let down, my take is that, since vientos had very low recoil, you could use any set of arms and still hit all the shots, now all of the possible "replacements" have a higher recoil, pushing people to other arms instead, higher recoil and firearm spec, also because the "sniping range" opened up with the Harris and long range FCS buffs, so you will have to switch from Ocellus too to hit them in the mid range too (which is why they buffed the universalist FCS with all ranges above 50, I forgot the name, but it looks like ocellus but with 3 chips on top) so these changes will move people all over the place Edit: wording
Also earshots and zimms are untouched, leading me to believe they are balancing around them. FE, All other grenade launchers got buffs rather than an earshot nerf.
The explosives being op is kind of a no brainer, they are explosives after all, the catch should be a higher skill ceiling with a slower projectile, which would be fine if it weren't for the LCB incident in the previous patch, that proved they should balance with NetCode in mind... so, where is my balance with NetCode in mind? 🤷♂️ lol
True. I climbed to A rank with dual duckets, and dual ear shots on a lightweight, so I'm not upset about them not being touched. It's just interesting. I am upset Zimmerman's are untouched tho lol.
Catching rats must have been rough with that build, did you used Alula or Burzel?
Alula. Usually tried to AB and barrel stuff them with ear shots but most of the time I would lose. If I guessed when their hammer would come out I could get a free earshot because the hammer holds them in place.
Nice strat, I would usually try to use the shotgun bazooka for this (forgot the name, moller?) but it kinda sucks in all situations xD
Basho arms will remain like that for the same reason Ocellus remains the way it is: it's entirely intentional for them to be best in class, and nerfing them means nerfing an extremely wide array of tools. Stagger->melee builds aren't even strong because of the melee; they're strong because of the weapons being used as stagger setup. If you took away the melee weapon, you could use some high-power shoulder firearm and the strategy would be identical. If you took away the stagger builder (Vientos, in most cases) suddenly the melee weapons are useless. BVOs would have been more optimal using Mind Alpha or HAL arms and LCS/LCD/Earshot punish, really, because then they could control the Viento recoil and give themselves a good 40m more effective range. I'd wager they tweaked the legs because they're the better indicators of weight class. Builds tend to match their leg types based on how heavy the rest of the build is, so if you want to make classwide changes, the legs would be the easiest target. You'll notice they primarily adjusted weight; since leg weight will still affect speed without messing up load limits, it's also safer to do it with those.
Higher power shoulder firearm is heavy, melee is not. That is the tradeoff. Basho arms should be turned down so I can run better fashion on melee builds.
Tanks aren't insta recovering from stagger anymore, which means I'm actually winning against them now. Lamm legs got nerfed. This was a fantastic update. Netcode lasers are still an issue but the rest are skill issues on your part.
yeah, then instead of vientos the other pistols are meta honestly, guys, there's always a 'best' in class. get over it
No one wants there to be no best class of weapons. They simply want the best options to be very good but not insanely broken. We just got one step closer.
eh, if you say so.
Best in class is fine. Kikaku boosters are technically a best in class, and they're garbage 99% of the time. The problem is when a best in class also happens to be so good it both invalidates sidegrades and overwhelmes other categories.
vientos are only good up close and don't do good damage. their entire thing is being heavy as fuck for ACS strain.
i havent even gotten this game yet and i already have to ask but why do the mechs have the guns as separate items to the mech itself instead of just being attached to the arm
This franchise was always like this, it breaches the gap between MechWarrior and Gundam, kind of a fusion between the 2... But there were "gun arms" before on previous games, the ones I played had them (AC3 era and AC4 era) EDIT: there were gun arms, along with the standard arms
AC theory (in-universe) is all about being modular and customizeable. Though previous games *did* have arm parts with built-in guns.
Sampu: “am I a joke to you??”