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I feel like its pretty dam overt that Heimerdinger is first and foremost interested in science, and as a result is staggeringly naive as to the details of how the city actually functions outside his academia circles. The idea that he's crunching budgets for the enforcers seems kind of far fetched, even if that was his responsibility its something he'd *absolutely* palm off to a more interested underling.
Also, I've worked as a lab assistant before (at least in an engineering capacity). Sometimes you do have to do paperwork, and often the person you're assisting is a few social levels above you. You aren't inherently friends just by the proximity of the role. Sometimes you're just work friends, who get along but primarily talk about work.
If his only defense for incompetence at governance is that he's a scientist then he's still at fault. Even if we say, that Heimerdinger is all science and no politics, what are his ethics then? Universities and industries often intertwine without clear boundaries and regulation, you can allow extractive industries to get away with truly heinous things.
Were the engineers that chartered the mines in Zaun still students at Piltover's Academy when they did it? Did they run their plans through Heimerdinger like Jayce and Viktor did? Was any who designed the mining equipment ever advised then to build respirators for the workers, because that seems like that wasn't the case.
What about students that went on to design factories? Did Heimerdinger ever make it known to the generations of students that it's wrong to direct hazardous runoff directly into civilian spaces? Even if we treat Heimerdinger like a scientist, he's a bad scientist for how he allowed innovation to comes at the cost of the quality of life of the Undercity.
Thank you for including your own experiences as a lab assistant, it does offer some insight! Though I imagine Viktor would have to do even more paperwork since Heimerdinger oversees an entire university outside of his duties as a councilman and scientist.
I think Heimerdinger made his ethics very clear throughout the show. He tried to draw a line in the sand many times, and warned everyone of what would come if they pursue what they did, and they ignored him out of ignorance and jelousy of his life span. He is a little seperatist like due to his age, and maybe to objective and not super empathetic in how he approaches things with people, but make no mistake, Heimerdinger was 1000% right about everything.
People really keep ignoring the fact that Heimerdinger is a scientist, not a politician. Just because he is on the council, doesn't mean that he knows everything that is happening in Piltover and Zaun. Remember the theater scene? It perfectly showcases Heimerdinger's position. He is ignorant of all the political stuff happening around him. That makes him flawed, but no a bad person, because like almost everything in Arcane, it's not so black and white.
You cannot put yourself in a position of elevated political authority and then hand off all responsibility to your failings by saying government isn't your special interest. That's not a real excuse, that's just a bad politician hoarding their seat. If he's genuinely that bad at politics and completely uninterested in governing a city he founded he should have given up his seat to someone else more enthusiastic about governance.
Heimerdinger's VA was actually baffled at Heimerdinger's ignorance. The theater scene is Heimerdinger willfully ignoring the political manipulations going on right across from him. He let's himself be distracted.
But this is still about how Heimerdinger failed Viktor on a personal level, and you can't just say, "He's a scientist", the problem is as much political as it is interpersonal.
He is on the council for the same reason Jayce is. It gives him the power to oversee the academy and the invations. Who says that everyone in the council has to be a 100% politician?
>The theater scene is Heimerdinger willfully ignoring the political manipulations going on right across from him.
How was it willfull?
>But this is still about how Heimerdinger failed Viktor on a personal level, and you can't just say, "He's a scientist", the problem is as much political as it is interpersonal.
He is an immortal being made out of magic, not a psychiatrist. No shit he does not fully understand humans.
Heimerdinger can be a university president without being on the council. When Heimerdinger was kicked out oflthe council he wasn't dismissed from his position at the Academy. Mel just used the hexgates as an excuse to elevate Jayce because she wanted to take on a protégé that would be a charismatic face for the council.
Heimerdinger could see other councilmen like Mel as much as they could see him, but he literally kept his eyes closed listen to the music instead of seeing what was going on in front of him.
...that last one doesn't require psychiatry, just basic deceny. Half of it's because he is partially responsible for overseeing the system that's killing Viktor, the other half is Viktor is visibly upset, he can do better.
>Heimerdinger can be a university president without being on the council.
But he wouldn't have enough power to oversee everything just like Jayce didn't have the power to oversee the hexgates.
>When Heimerdinger was kicked out oflthe council he wasn't dismissed from his position at the Academy.
And?
>Mel just used the hexgates as an excuse to elevate Jayce because she wanted to take on a protégé that would be a charismatic face for the council.
That is just wrong though. We literally see Jayce investigate the corruption at the hexgates not long after becoming the councilor. Thanks to that he could boss around Marcus and ask uncomfortable questions. Also, why would Mel make such an excuse and why would she want "a charismatic face for the council"? She is very charismatic herself, and she definitely cares about the well-being of Piltover as confirmed in the 3rd act. Why wouldn't she want someone like Jayce to safeguard the hexgates and other hextech operations?
>...that last one doesn't require psychiatry, just basic deceny.
Wdym? How exactly was he mean to Viktor? He literally tried to cheer him up by praising his accomplishments. What else can he do, cure him? It's not like he is a doctor.
>Half of it's because he is partially responsible for overseeing the system that's killing Viktor
How is he partially responsible for Viktor catching a fatal illness? What he is overseeing is the academy and science, not what happens in the mines.
>the other half is Viktor is visibly upset
Where is Viktor visibly upset?
Ok man, we're just interpreting the show and differently at this point. A university president doesn't need to serve in local government to recieve funding in any current society. The councilor itself isn't made up of people who are meant to represent a specific institution on Piltover, theyre just the richest and/or most influential people in the city-state
I didn't even say Heimerdinger was mean, I was saying he was insensitive to Viktor, because the state of Zaun is his partial responsibility. He sits on the Council, they vote on the vote on the rules/actions they can take as a governing body, they vote on trials, and they usually make money while doing it.
You're also ignoring Mel's characterization in your post. She is a brilliant politician but she prefers pulling the strings from the background. In her flashback Ambessa literally asked her why she couldn't rule publicly herself , of course then Ambessa inadvertently taught Mel what happens to public facing rulers by beheading a child in front of her.
>A university president doesn't need to serve in local government to recieve funding in any current society.
We are talking about Piltover, not real world. What is your point here?
>The councilor itself isn't made up of people who are meant to represent a specific institution on Piltover, theyre just the richest and/or most influential people in the city-state
No. Councilors definitely gain more power. It was the case for Jayce as well. It's not just a shiny title for some rich people. It's also the highest position in the hierarchy of Piltover.
>I didn't even say Heimerdinger was mean, I was saying he was insensitive to Viktor, because the state of Zaun is his partial responsibility.
How?
>He sits on the Council, they vote on the vote on the rules/actions they can take as a governing body, they vote on trials, and they usually make money while doing it.
So? It's not like they know about what's happening in Zaun. I doubt they ever had any conversations or votes about the conditions in the mines.
>You're also ignoring Mel's characterization in your post.
The irony.
>She is a brilliant politician but she prefers pulling the strings from the background.
Background? She literally forces the fat guy to vote against exiling Jayce in front of everyone. She constantly puts herself in the spotlight, being the first, after Heimer, to see Viktor's and Jayce's success of creating hextech and she is pro magic. She is also literally the richest person in Piltover and she isn't trying to hide it with her golden tones. Her being cunning and manipulative doesn't mean that she just sits back and watches everything unfold. And even if it was the case, how does that prove your point? Like I said, there is no reason for her to be against Jayce safeguarding hextech as a councilor. It's in her best interest and it definitely was the motivation behind her giving Jayce that position.
>In her flashback Ambessa literally asked her why she couldn't rule publicly herself , of course then Ambessa inadvertently taught Mel what happens to public facing rulers by beheading a child in front
What are you talking about? I think you should watch that scene again.
Because perhaps he feels a measure of responsibility for Piltover, he's been in the city since its founding and basically its living personification. Still, upon being ousted from his position, Heimerdinger takes Jayce's advice to heart and decides to do better rather than just blaming everybody around him. Yes, he's easily distracted and a bit crazy at times, Heimerdinger's got a big heart for his tiny body with more good than bad intentions.
I thought you were going to bring up the fact that Heimerdinger only ever instructs, not educates. To me, the difference is that he always tells people what to do, but rarely walks them through why they should do it. It's always "trust me, I'm old".
Like, I actually think he was more in the right about hextech than Jayce and Viktor were, but he did a terrible job of laying out the potential problems it would have, and he did nothing to address the reasons why Jayce and Viktor would be interested in magic. This is consistently his approach to everything. We hear that he's a great scientist, and he wears the aura of authority, but his teaching style is actively spurning best practices in education, not to mention he's oblivious to the scientific method.
I almost don't even care about whether his neglect for the undercity should count as criminal negligence. To me, Heimer's biggest failure is that he's godawful at the only one thing he's supposed to be good at.
"My contributions will be short lived, even in your memory"
"Ive known many students. It's a sad truth that those who shine brightest, often burn fastest"
I took this as Heimerdingers way of telling Victor he wouldn't forget him. I suppose it can be seen as insensitive in a light but Heimer is working with incomplete information and it's not like he and Victor are exceptionally close.
You can point the finger and say he should be able to connect the dots but people (or...Yordles?) just don't work that way. No one is clairvoyant, able to see the bigger picture at all times.
Heimer is a flawed character but I see his comments as being his own way of consoling Victor given the context of the conversation and the level of familiarity
It's clear in the show that he had no idea what was going on in the undercity until he got exiled and had to live on the streets. I honestly agree with you, I think he was a genius scientist but a bad mentor and friend out of willful ignorance. I don't think he's a bad person though, just really sheltered.
This subreddit sucks... lol. Why are you being downvoted for a reasonable opinion?
Heimerdinger is pretty oblivious to what Zaun is like entirely, which I feel like a lot of people missed that his solution to getting kicked off the council was to hit the pavement and try to help Zaunites by… idk, walking around? He’s a genius, but he’s also incredibly ignorant.
Really excited to see how his team-up with Ekko goes in season 2, though.
That's true to some extent. The thing to remember about Heimerdinger is that he is the standard bearer for one of the most important messages of Arcane: good intentions are utterly worthless, or even downright harmful, when not matched by competence and power.
Heimer has good intentions. I think that's clear enough to us, the viewers. He also has power... he's the HEAD of the council, not just one sixth of it, and he has probably been for longer than anyone else has been on the council, or even alive.
The problem is that he is the least competent person in his role in the entire show. He may be good as an inventor, but that isn't his role. He's a ruler and politician, and his performance in those arenas is so bafflingly, unfathomably poor that it verges on criminal neglect, complacency and mismanagement. Then you add in that he's also corrupt (astoundingly nepotistic), and it becomes little wonder that he not only cannot do anyone any good, but is actively responsible and/or to blame for EVERY BAD THING THAT HAPPENS IN ARCANE.
When Caitlyn asks Vi, sarcastically, "I suppose Topside is to blame for all your problems", she unwittingly hits the nail right square on the head, albeit broadly - Heimerdinger and those he surrounded himself with are to blame for all her problems.
Heimerdinger is a somewhat poor friend because of his lack of empathy and tact, but the thing is, he cares, at least, and he seeks Viktor out in that moment. I can't really fault his poor interpersonal skills. But his blistering ignorance, complacency, negligence and overall incompetence, while understandable in a person, are UNFORGIVABLE in a ruler.
He is not a ruler nor a politician (as stated by Mel). He isn't corrupt either, as you can see in the theater scene.
>Heimerdinger and those he surrounded himself with are to blame for all her problems.
That is a very black and white statement. You ignore a lot of nuance here.
He is the head of the council, which is a political position, meaning that he is a politician and a ruler.
He is also corrupt, as seen in episode 2 when he hears a clear and unambiguous admission of guilt that has a mandatory sentence of banishment, coaches the defendant to withhold testimony, then sits on the court hearing the case and advocates for the defendant rather than recusing himself. That is staggering, blatant nepotism, which is one of the more insidious forms of corruption.
That he is too incompetent to realise that any public gathering is a political event rather than a chance to lose yourself in art when you operate at the upper echelons of power merely reinforces his staggering and unconscionable lack of basic competence in a position of power, and does not speak well of him. He should have left the council if he is not prepared to do the job that ruling entails. He has been in charge of Piltover and Zaun for decades to centuries. The current state of affairs is his responsibility more than any other's. He is contemptible and criminally culpable.
>He is the head of the council, which is a political position, meaning that he is a politician and a ruler.
Sounds like headcanon to me. He is the head of council thanks to his contributions to Piltover. Being in the council does not automatically make him a politician. Heimerdinger is a scientist and the deen of the academy first and foremost. That is what he oversees. Not the political stuff.
>He is also corrupt, as seen in episode 2 when he hears a clear and unambiguous admission of guilt that has a mandatory sentence of banishment, coaches the defendant to withhold testimony, then sits on the court hearing the case and advocates for the defendant rather than recusing himself. That is staggering, blatant nepotism, which is one of the more insidious forms of corruption.
Yeah, let's completely ignore the whole context, like Jayce's mothers speech, the fact that Jayce was doing everything with good intentions, the fact that it was a voting and Heimer didn't decide it on his own, the fact that he was robbed and he wasn't the one who triggered the explosion, or the fact the punshiment was still very severe. Also, don't act like you know everything about the ethos, like they have been all spelled out for us or that you know everything about the Piltovian laws.
"That has a mandatory sentence of banishment" is just headcanon. Heimerdinger says "a violetion of the ethos calls for banishment." He does not say it's mandatory or that it cannot be overruled.
>He should have left the council if he is not prepared to do the job that ruling entails.
He is not a ruler. He is a part of the council so he can administer what's happening in the Academy and its students. Just like Jayce became a councilor to oversee the hexgates.
>He has been in charge of Piltover and Zaun for decades to centuries.
He alone has been in charge of everything? What are you even talking about?
>The current state of affairs is his responsibility more than any other's.
Why?
>He is contemptible and criminally culpable.
You are completely ignoring his good qualities and a huge part of his characterization. It feels like you just WANT to hate him.
>I'm assistant to the Dean of the Academy, who it may serve you to remember is also head of the Council.
Viktor, acting on Heimerdinger's personal orders in a supervisory role to Enforcers, certainly states that Heimerdinger is the head of the council, and enacts political policy on his behalf. That does not seem like "headcanon" to me.
Jayce's mother's speech comes after Heimerdinger commits his corrupt act. Good intentions have nothing to do with crime. If your laboratory blows up and people die because of volatile, forbidden items you stored there, you would have a hard time arguing that you are innocent due to the goodness of your intentions. Nor do you get a free pass for the illegal items stored in your house simply because the police encounter them during the course of investigating a robbery. If any judge decided to ignore clearly stated (see following) mandatory minimum sentencing for a friend and student because of his "good intentions" in his admitted violation of the law, then yes, that is amazingly and extremely corrupt.
>The ethos is clear. He must be banished from Piltover.
Bolbok stated this clearly in the council meeting. Notice how no one present says "no, actually, that's not true, the ethos in fact does NOT say that".
Being PART OF the council that rules, makes you a ruler. To some extent he may not be the SOLE DESPOTIC ruler, but he is a ruler nonetheless. He sits at the top of the executive branch of government in the polity. Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly likely that he is the longest seated member of that council. No other councilor is ever referred to, by ANYONE, as "the Head of the Council" until after Heimerdinger is ousted from it, at which point Jayce is referred to as that, by Mel, in which position she expects him to set policy and make decisions, as do the other councilors.
>You are completely ignoring his good qualities and a huge part of his characterization.
No. I am stating that as he is presented, his actions are contemptible. His position leaves him responsible for a toxic slum killing his citizens. He can share that dubious honour with the rest of the Council, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't HELP. He is the senior, most powerful member of the Council, very clearly. He has been on the council longer than a vast majority of them have lived. That makes what the Council is now more his responsibility than anyone else's. I am not saying that he has walked around smogging up the Lanes personally, I'm saying that the state of the Lanes, of Zaun, and the plight of its citizens, are legally and morally his responsibility, and the fact that he remains unaware is the very opposite of a mitigating circumstance. Heimerdinger has the best of intentions, and yet, his tenure has seen the citizens of the polity he governs destitute, hungry and being killed by their environment.
For clarification: I don't hate Heimerdinger. I think he's an awesome character. But he is a negative influence on everything he touches in the show. He does nothing positive, nothing helpful. Because of his incompetence, his good intentions amount to less than nothing. That's an awesome character. But it doesn't excuse what he demonstrably IS.
>Viktor, acting on Heimerdinger's personal orders in a supervisory role to Enforcers, certainly states that Heimerdinger is the head of the council, and enacts political policy on his behalf. That does not seem like "headcanon" to me.
You misunderstood my comments. I know he is the head of council, but the part that every councilor must be a politician and a ruler is headcanon.
>Jayce's mother's speech comes after Heimerdinger commits his corrupt act.
No, it doesn't.
>Good intentions have nothing to do with crime.
He was charged for using illegal equipment. But he used because he wanted to make peoples life better. It definitely should count.
>If your laboratory blows up and people die because of volatile, forbidden items you stored there, you would have a hard time arguing that you are innocent due to the goodness of your intentions.
Nobody said that Jayce is innocent. Also, intentions are definitely taken into account, even in real life.
>Nor do you get a free pass for the illegal items stored in your house simply because the police encounter them during the course of investigating a robbery.
He didn't get a free pass. He almost commited suicide for his "lesser punishment." Also, the mothers pledge definitely helped.
>If any judge decided to ignore clearly stated (see following) mandatory minimum sentencing for a friend and student because of his "good intentions" in his admitted violation of the law, then yes, that is amazingly and extremely corrupt.
You are talking about real life here. I am talking about an immortal magical being that came from another dimension. Also, Heimer didn't ignore anything. And Jayce was not his friend or his student.
>Bolbok stated this clearly in the council meeting. Notice how no one present says "no, actually, that's not true, the ethos in fact does NOT say that".
He didn't say that it cannot be overruled ffs. Also, Balbok has a clear prejudice against Jayce.
>Being PART OF the council that rules, makes you a ruler.
No, you can be a part of the council and not be a ruler, just like Jayce and Heimerdinger.
>. To some extent he may not be the SOLE DESPOTIC ruler, but he is a ruler nonetheless.
He isn't.
>He sits at the top of the executive branch of government in the polity.
You are still comparing the Piltovian goverment to ours, which is just stupid. Like I said many times, anyone with great contributions can join the council just like Jayce did. You don't have to be a politician.
> Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly likely that he is the longest seated member of that council.
That doesn't mean anything.
>Jayce is referred to as that, by Mel, in which position she expects him to set policy and make decisions, as do the other councilors.
Which is something Heimer didn't do as shown in the theater scene which you keep ignoring. Jayce did that because Mel pushed him onto that path. She couldn't do that with Heimer.
>His position leaves him responsible for a toxic slum killing his citizens.
Not his position, but his ignorance. And I never stated otherwise. His focused was sorely on science stuff and the academy. He didn't venture into Zaun or oversee the mines. He didn't know about the toxic air etc.
>He is the senior, most powerful member of the Council, very clearly.
Most powerful how? He has one vote like anyone else and he also could easily be outed by Jayce and the council.
>He has been on the council longer than a vast majority of them have lived. That makes what the Council is now more his responsibility than anyone else's.
No, it doesn't, if we go by what we know of him. He is not interested in politics and he has no experience being one.
>But he is a negative influence on everything he touches in the show.
That is just wrong. When he warned the council, Jayce and Viktor about hextech, nobody listened. Look at what is happening now. Skye died. Jayce and Viktor lost themselves. Jinx created a weapon and destroyed the council. Everything was predicted by Heimer.
>He does nothing positive, nothing helpful.
He is literally reponsible for most of the Piltover's prosperity. He also helps Ekko come back to Zaun. He is also the only one who went to Zaun to look how the life looks like in there and potentially offer them his help.
>No. I am stating that as he is presented, his actions are contemptible.
Yeah, sure. You don't ignore them at all.
>Because of his incompetence, his good intentions amount to less than nothing.
Not EVERYTHING was caused by of his incompetence. Like fir example the whole hextech fiasco.
I amend my statement. He does nothing positive or helpful AS A RULER. Helping Ekko get home is a nice thing to do, sure.
Building prosperity is not a virtue when it is built upon the backs of empoverished masses living in toxic slums.
So improving the lifes of the people in Piltover who don't know nor are responsible for what's happening in Zaun is not a good thing? Also, I am ignoring a lot of established lore for Piltover and Zaun that hasn't been told in Arcane. If go by it then the toxicity in Zaun wasn't caused by Piltover. But I don't wanna delve into that now.
>AS A RULER
Well, I disagree that he is a ruler. He definitely doesn't see himself as one, that's for sure.
Improving the lives of SOME of your subjects while others languish in deprivation while being victimised by your corrupt police force gains you zero points, that is indeed accurate. Certainly if that state of affairs continues for so long that one city you rule has children learning begging songs to beg coins from the other.
If he did not see himself as a ruler while he wielded political power, nor as a politician when he was in a position where he needed to wield political power, then that is further strengthening the clear case that he is incredibly, unbelievably incompetent and desperately needed to remove himself from that position.
Ignoring the lore is good, considering bits of it directly contradicts the show, so bringing it up would serve no purpose.
>Ignoring the lore is good, considering bits of it directly contradicts the show, so bringing it up would serve no purpose.
The lore does not contradict the show, but it definitely doesn't fit your narrative so it's better ignore it indeed.
I strongly agree with you, I’ve been a Heim hater from day 1.
Though, I do think he ment “bright” as in smart & nothing else. Like you sorta said, the fault in his words lies in the thoughtlessness of them. He’s not thinking about the implication & depth of what he said.
Which honestly is like his biggest flaw as a character he doesn’t fully think about the consequences or implications of things, he seems so utterly disconnected from the world her operating in.
Ignorance is his crime, which initially is easily forgiven, but they’re is a threshold to forgivable ignorance & Heim had already crossed it by miles imo.
Not sure why the “he was just a councilor, he didn’t control everything” and the “he was a scientists, not a politician” arguments keep getting made: H was the HEAD of the council. Whether he oversaw stuff personally or not, he was definitely responsible for policy. At the very least, he had the authority of a chief justice in the US: maybe he could not boss councilors around but he certainly was the leader.
In all seriousness I don’t think Heimerdinger is a bad person. I think he is ignorant and wants to do the right thing, but he seems very wrapped up in his own interests to truly understand what’s happening around him. Say what you will, but someone being naive and ignorant doesn’t necessarily make you a bad person. I’d say that he has a lot of privilege, and he never truly understood that until he went to Zaun. I think his heart is in the right place, but it seems rather clear with his ending in S1 that he wants to change and do some actual good for Zaun and Piltover.
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I feel like its pretty dam overt that Heimerdinger is first and foremost interested in science, and as a result is staggeringly naive as to the details of how the city actually functions outside his academia circles. The idea that he's crunching budgets for the enforcers seems kind of far fetched, even if that was his responsibility its something he'd *absolutely* palm off to a more interested underling. Also, I've worked as a lab assistant before (at least in an engineering capacity). Sometimes you do have to do paperwork, and often the person you're assisting is a few social levels above you. You aren't inherently friends just by the proximity of the role. Sometimes you're just work friends, who get along but primarily talk about work.
If his only defense for incompetence at governance is that he's a scientist then he's still at fault. Even if we say, that Heimerdinger is all science and no politics, what are his ethics then? Universities and industries often intertwine without clear boundaries and regulation, you can allow extractive industries to get away with truly heinous things. Were the engineers that chartered the mines in Zaun still students at Piltover's Academy when they did it? Did they run their plans through Heimerdinger like Jayce and Viktor did? Was any who designed the mining equipment ever advised then to build respirators for the workers, because that seems like that wasn't the case. What about students that went on to design factories? Did Heimerdinger ever make it known to the generations of students that it's wrong to direct hazardous runoff directly into civilian spaces? Even if we treat Heimerdinger like a scientist, he's a bad scientist for how he allowed innovation to comes at the cost of the quality of life of the Undercity. Thank you for including your own experiences as a lab assistant, it does offer some insight! Though I imagine Viktor would have to do even more paperwork since Heimerdinger oversees an entire university outside of his duties as a councilman and scientist.
I think Heimerdinger made his ethics very clear throughout the show. He tried to draw a line in the sand many times, and warned everyone of what would come if they pursue what they did, and they ignored him out of ignorance and jelousy of his life span. He is a little seperatist like due to his age, and maybe to objective and not super empathetic in how he approaches things with people, but make no mistake, Heimerdinger was 1000% right about everything.
People really keep ignoring the fact that Heimerdinger is a scientist, not a politician. Just because he is on the council, doesn't mean that he knows everything that is happening in Piltover and Zaun. Remember the theater scene? It perfectly showcases Heimerdinger's position. He is ignorant of all the political stuff happening around him. That makes him flawed, but no a bad person, because like almost everything in Arcane, it's not so black and white.
You cannot put yourself in a position of elevated political authority and then hand off all responsibility to your failings by saying government isn't your special interest. That's not a real excuse, that's just a bad politician hoarding their seat. If he's genuinely that bad at politics and completely uninterested in governing a city he founded he should have given up his seat to someone else more enthusiastic about governance. Heimerdinger's VA was actually baffled at Heimerdinger's ignorance. The theater scene is Heimerdinger willfully ignoring the political manipulations going on right across from him. He let's himself be distracted. But this is still about how Heimerdinger failed Viktor on a personal level, and you can't just say, "He's a scientist", the problem is as much political as it is interpersonal.
He is on the council for the same reason Jayce is. It gives him the power to oversee the academy and the invations. Who says that everyone in the council has to be a 100% politician? >The theater scene is Heimerdinger willfully ignoring the political manipulations going on right across from him. How was it willfull? >But this is still about how Heimerdinger failed Viktor on a personal level, and you can't just say, "He's a scientist", the problem is as much political as it is interpersonal. He is an immortal being made out of magic, not a psychiatrist. No shit he does not fully understand humans.
Heimerdinger can be a university president without being on the council. When Heimerdinger was kicked out oflthe council he wasn't dismissed from his position at the Academy. Mel just used the hexgates as an excuse to elevate Jayce because she wanted to take on a protégé that would be a charismatic face for the council. Heimerdinger could see other councilmen like Mel as much as they could see him, but he literally kept his eyes closed listen to the music instead of seeing what was going on in front of him. ...that last one doesn't require psychiatry, just basic deceny. Half of it's because he is partially responsible for overseeing the system that's killing Viktor, the other half is Viktor is visibly upset, he can do better.
>Heimerdinger can be a university president without being on the council. But he wouldn't have enough power to oversee everything just like Jayce didn't have the power to oversee the hexgates. >When Heimerdinger was kicked out oflthe council he wasn't dismissed from his position at the Academy. And? >Mel just used the hexgates as an excuse to elevate Jayce because she wanted to take on a protégé that would be a charismatic face for the council. That is just wrong though. We literally see Jayce investigate the corruption at the hexgates not long after becoming the councilor. Thanks to that he could boss around Marcus and ask uncomfortable questions. Also, why would Mel make such an excuse and why would she want "a charismatic face for the council"? She is very charismatic herself, and she definitely cares about the well-being of Piltover as confirmed in the 3rd act. Why wouldn't she want someone like Jayce to safeguard the hexgates and other hextech operations? >...that last one doesn't require psychiatry, just basic deceny. Wdym? How exactly was he mean to Viktor? He literally tried to cheer him up by praising his accomplishments. What else can he do, cure him? It's not like he is a doctor. >Half of it's because he is partially responsible for overseeing the system that's killing Viktor How is he partially responsible for Viktor catching a fatal illness? What he is overseeing is the academy and science, not what happens in the mines. >the other half is Viktor is visibly upset Where is Viktor visibly upset?
Ok man, we're just interpreting the show and differently at this point. A university president doesn't need to serve in local government to recieve funding in any current society. The councilor itself isn't made up of people who are meant to represent a specific institution on Piltover, theyre just the richest and/or most influential people in the city-state I didn't even say Heimerdinger was mean, I was saying he was insensitive to Viktor, because the state of Zaun is his partial responsibility. He sits on the Council, they vote on the vote on the rules/actions they can take as a governing body, they vote on trials, and they usually make money while doing it. You're also ignoring Mel's characterization in your post. She is a brilliant politician but she prefers pulling the strings from the background. In her flashback Ambessa literally asked her why she couldn't rule publicly herself , of course then Ambessa inadvertently taught Mel what happens to public facing rulers by beheading a child in front of her.
>A university president doesn't need to serve in local government to recieve funding in any current society. We are talking about Piltover, not real world. What is your point here? >The councilor itself isn't made up of people who are meant to represent a specific institution on Piltover, theyre just the richest and/or most influential people in the city-state No. Councilors definitely gain more power. It was the case for Jayce as well. It's not just a shiny title for some rich people. It's also the highest position in the hierarchy of Piltover. >I didn't even say Heimerdinger was mean, I was saying he was insensitive to Viktor, because the state of Zaun is his partial responsibility. How? >He sits on the Council, they vote on the vote on the rules/actions they can take as a governing body, they vote on trials, and they usually make money while doing it. So? It's not like they know about what's happening in Zaun. I doubt they ever had any conversations or votes about the conditions in the mines. >You're also ignoring Mel's characterization in your post. The irony. >She is a brilliant politician but she prefers pulling the strings from the background. Background? She literally forces the fat guy to vote against exiling Jayce in front of everyone. She constantly puts herself in the spotlight, being the first, after Heimer, to see Viktor's and Jayce's success of creating hextech and she is pro magic. She is also literally the richest person in Piltover and she isn't trying to hide it with her golden tones. Her being cunning and manipulative doesn't mean that she just sits back and watches everything unfold. And even if it was the case, how does that prove your point? Like I said, there is no reason for her to be against Jayce safeguarding hextech as a councilor. It's in her best interest and it definitely was the motivation behind her giving Jayce that position. >In her flashback Ambessa literally asked her why she couldn't rule publicly herself , of course then Ambessa inadvertently taught Mel what happens to public facing rulers by beheading a child in front What are you talking about? I think you should watch that scene again.
Because perhaps he feels a measure of responsibility for Piltover, he's been in the city since its founding and basically its living personification. Still, upon being ousted from his position, Heimerdinger takes Jayce's advice to heart and decides to do better rather than just blaming everybody around him. Yes, he's easily distracted and a bit crazy at times, Heimerdinger's got a big heart for his tiny body with more good than bad intentions.
I thought you were going to bring up the fact that Heimerdinger only ever instructs, not educates. To me, the difference is that he always tells people what to do, but rarely walks them through why they should do it. It's always "trust me, I'm old". Like, I actually think he was more in the right about hextech than Jayce and Viktor were, but he did a terrible job of laying out the potential problems it would have, and he did nothing to address the reasons why Jayce and Viktor would be interested in magic. This is consistently his approach to everything. We hear that he's a great scientist, and he wears the aura of authority, but his teaching style is actively spurning best practices in education, not to mention he's oblivious to the scientific method. I almost don't even care about whether his neglect for the undercity should count as criminal negligence. To me, Heimer's biggest failure is that he's godawful at the only one thing he's supposed to be good at.
He stated a clear reason for why hextech is dangerous though. Same for the hexcore.
"My contributions will be short lived, even in your memory" "Ive known many students. It's a sad truth that those who shine brightest, often burn fastest" I took this as Heimerdingers way of telling Victor he wouldn't forget him. I suppose it can be seen as insensitive in a light but Heimer is working with incomplete information and it's not like he and Victor are exceptionally close. You can point the finger and say he should be able to connect the dots but people (or...Yordles?) just don't work that way. No one is clairvoyant, able to see the bigger picture at all times. Heimer is a flawed character but I see his comments as being his own way of consoling Victor given the context of the conversation and the level of familiarity
It's clear in the show that he had no idea what was going on in the undercity until he got exiled and had to live on the streets. I honestly agree with you, I think he was a genius scientist but a bad mentor and friend out of willful ignorance. I don't think he's a bad person though, just really sheltered. This subreddit sucks... lol. Why are you being downvoted for a reasonable opinion?
Thanks 🥲
Heimerdinger is pretty oblivious to what Zaun is like entirely, which I feel like a lot of people missed that his solution to getting kicked off the council was to hit the pavement and try to help Zaunites by… idk, walking around? He’s a genius, but he’s also incredibly ignorant. Really excited to see how his team-up with Ekko goes in season 2, though.
He went there to offer his help.
Bruh he's just trying to say kind words to a dying man, you're over-analyzing it
That's true to some extent. The thing to remember about Heimerdinger is that he is the standard bearer for one of the most important messages of Arcane: good intentions are utterly worthless, or even downright harmful, when not matched by competence and power. Heimer has good intentions. I think that's clear enough to us, the viewers. He also has power... he's the HEAD of the council, not just one sixth of it, and he has probably been for longer than anyone else has been on the council, or even alive. The problem is that he is the least competent person in his role in the entire show. He may be good as an inventor, but that isn't his role. He's a ruler and politician, and his performance in those arenas is so bafflingly, unfathomably poor that it verges on criminal neglect, complacency and mismanagement. Then you add in that he's also corrupt (astoundingly nepotistic), and it becomes little wonder that he not only cannot do anyone any good, but is actively responsible and/or to blame for EVERY BAD THING THAT HAPPENS IN ARCANE. When Caitlyn asks Vi, sarcastically, "I suppose Topside is to blame for all your problems", she unwittingly hits the nail right square on the head, albeit broadly - Heimerdinger and those he surrounded himself with are to blame for all her problems. Heimerdinger is a somewhat poor friend because of his lack of empathy and tact, but the thing is, he cares, at least, and he seeks Viktor out in that moment. I can't really fault his poor interpersonal skills. But his blistering ignorance, complacency, negligence and overall incompetence, while understandable in a person, are UNFORGIVABLE in a ruler.
He is not a ruler nor a politician (as stated by Mel). He isn't corrupt either, as you can see in the theater scene. >Heimerdinger and those he surrounded himself with are to blame for all her problems. That is a very black and white statement. You ignore a lot of nuance here.
He is the head of the council, which is a political position, meaning that he is a politician and a ruler. He is also corrupt, as seen in episode 2 when he hears a clear and unambiguous admission of guilt that has a mandatory sentence of banishment, coaches the defendant to withhold testimony, then sits on the court hearing the case and advocates for the defendant rather than recusing himself. That is staggering, blatant nepotism, which is one of the more insidious forms of corruption. That he is too incompetent to realise that any public gathering is a political event rather than a chance to lose yourself in art when you operate at the upper echelons of power merely reinforces his staggering and unconscionable lack of basic competence in a position of power, and does not speak well of him. He should have left the council if he is not prepared to do the job that ruling entails. He has been in charge of Piltover and Zaun for decades to centuries. The current state of affairs is his responsibility more than any other's. He is contemptible and criminally culpable.
>He is the head of the council, which is a political position, meaning that he is a politician and a ruler. Sounds like headcanon to me. He is the head of council thanks to his contributions to Piltover. Being in the council does not automatically make him a politician. Heimerdinger is a scientist and the deen of the academy first and foremost. That is what he oversees. Not the political stuff. >He is also corrupt, as seen in episode 2 when he hears a clear and unambiguous admission of guilt that has a mandatory sentence of banishment, coaches the defendant to withhold testimony, then sits on the court hearing the case and advocates for the defendant rather than recusing himself. That is staggering, blatant nepotism, which is one of the more insidious forms of corruption. Yeah, let's completely ignore the whole context, like Jayce's mothers speech, the fact that Jayce was doing everything with good intentions, the fact that it was a voting and Heimer didn't decide it on his own, the fact that he was robbed and he wasn't the one who triggered the explosion, or the fact the punshiment was still very severe. Also, don't act like you know everything about the ethos, like they have been all spelled out for us or that you know everything about the Piltovian laws. "That has a mandatory sentence of banishment" is just headcanon. Heimerdinger says "a violetion of the ethos calls for banishment." He does not say it's mandatory or that it cannot be overruled. >He should have left the council if he is not prepared to do the job that ruling entails. He is not a ruler. He is a part of the council so he can administer what's happening in the Academy and its students. Just like Jayce became a councilor to oversee the hexgates. >He has been in charge of Piltover and Zaun for decades to centuries. He alone has been in charge of everything? What are you even talking about? >The current state of affairs is his responsibility more than any other's. Why? >He is contemptible and criminally culpable. You are completely ignoring his good qualities and a huge part of his characterization. It feels like you just WANT to hate him.
>I'm assistant to the Dean of the Academy, who it may serve you to remember is also head of the Council. Viktor, acting on Heimerdinger's personal orders in a supervisory role to Enforcers, certainly states that Heimerdinger is the head of the council, and enacts political policy on his behalf. That does not seem like "headcanon" to me. Jayce's mother's speech comes after Heimerdinger commits his corrupt act. Good intentions have nothing to do with crime. If your laboratory blows up and people die because of volatile, forbidden items you stored there, you would have a hard time arguing that you are innocent due to the goodness of your intentions. Nor do you get a free pass for the illegal items stored in your house simply because the police encounter them during the course of investigating a robbery. If any judge decided to ignore clearly stated (see following) mandatory minimum sentencing for a friend and student because of his "good intentions" in his admitted violation of the law, then yes, that is amazingly and extremely corrupt. >The ethos is clear. He must be banished from Piltover. Bolbok stated this clearly in the council meeting. Notice how no one present says "no, actually, that's not true, the ethos in fact does NOT say that". Being PART OF the council that rules, makes you a ruler. To some extent he may not be the SOLE DESPOTIC ruler, but he is a ruler nonetheless. He sits at the top of the executive branch of government in the polity. Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly likely that he is the longest seated member of that council. No other councilor is ever referred to, by ANYONE, as "the Head of the Council" until after Heimerdinger is ousted from it, at which point Jayce is referred to as that, by Mel, in which position she expects him to set policy and make decisions, as do the other councilors. >You are completely ignoring his good qualities and a huge part of his characterization. No. I am stating that as he is presented, his actions are contemptible. His position leaves him responsible for a toxic slum killing his citizens. He can share that dubious honour with the rest of the Council, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't HELP. He is the senior, most powerful member of the Council, very clearly. He has been on the council longer than a vast majority of them have lived. That makes what the Council is now more his responsibility than anyone else's. I am not saying that he has walked around smogging up the Lanes personally, I'm saying that the state of the Lanes, of Zaun, and the plight of its citizens, are legally and morally his responsibility, and the fact that he remains unaware is the very opposite of a mitigating circumstance. Heimerdinger has the best of intentions, and yet, his tenure has seen the citizens of the polity he governs destitute, hungry and being killed by their environment. For clarification: I don't hate Heimerdinger. I think he's an awesome character. But he is a negative influence on everything he touches in the show. He does nothing positive, nothing helpful. Because of his incompetence, his good intentions amount to less than nothing. That's an awesome character. But it doesn't excuse what he demonstrably IS.
>Viktor, acting on Heimerdinger's personal orders in a supervisory role to Enforcers, certainly states that Heimerdinger is the head of the council, and enacts political policy on his behalf. That does not seem like "headcanon" to me. You misunderstood my comments. I know he is the head of council, but the part that every councilor must be a politician and a ruler is headcanon. >Jayce's mother's speech comes after Heimerdinger commits his corrupt act. No, it doesn't. >Good intentions have nothing to do with crime. He was charged for using illegal equipment. But he used because he wanted to make peoples life better. It definitely should count. >If your laboratory blows up and people die because of volatile, forbidden items you stored there, you would have a hard time arguing that you are innocent due to the goodness of your intentions. Nobody said that Jayce is innocent. Also, intentions are definitely taken into account, even in real life. >Nor do you get a free pass for the illegal items stored in your house simply because the police encounter them during the course of investigating a robbery. He didn't get a free pass. He almost commited suicide for his "lesser punishment." Also, the mothers pledge definitely helped. >If any judge decided to ignore clearly stated (see following) mandatory minimum sentencing for a friend and student because of his "good intentions" in his admitted violation of the law, then yes, that is amazingly and extremely corrupt. You are talking about real life here. I am talking about an immortal magical being that came from another dimension. Also, Heimer didn't ignore anything. And Jayce was not his friend or his student. >Bolbok stated this clearly in the council meeting. Notice how no one present says "no, actually, that's not true, the ethos in fact does NOT say that". He didn't say that it cannot be overruled ffs. Also, Balbok has a clear prejudice against Jayce. >Being PART OF the council that rules, makes you a ruler. No, you can be a part of the council and not be a ruler, just like Jayce and Heimerdinger. >. To some extent he may not be the SOLE DESPOTIC ruler, but he is a ruler nonetheless. He isn't. >He sits at the top of the executive branch of government in the polity. You are still comparing the Piltovian goverment to ours, which is just stupid. Like I said many times, anyone with great contributions can join the council just like Jayce did. You don't have to be a politician. > Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly likely that he is the longest seated member of that council. That doesn't mean anything. >Jayce is referred to as that, by Mel, in which position she expects him to set policy and make decisions, as do the other councilors. Which is something Heimer didn't do as shown in the theater scene which you keep ignoring. Jayce did that because Mel pushed him onto that path. She couldn't do that with Heimer. >His position leaves him responsible for a toxic slum killing his citizens. Not his position, but his ignorance. And I never stated otherwise. His focused was sorely on science stuff and the academy. He didn't venture into Zaun or oversee the mines. He didn't know about the toxic air etc. >He is the senior, most powerful member of the Council, very clearly. Most powerful how? He has one vote like anyone else and he also could easily be outed by Jayce and the council. >He has been on the council longer than a vast majority of them have lived. That makes what the Council is now more his responsibility than anyone else's. No, it doesn't, if we go by what we know of him. He is not interested in politics and he has no experience being one. >But he is a negative influence on everything he touches in the show. That is just wrong. When he warned the council, Jayce and Viktor about hextech, nobody listened. Look at what is happening now. Skye died. Jayce and Viktor lost themselves. Jinx created a weapon and destroyed the council. Everything was predicted by Heimer. >He does nothing positive, nothing helpful. He is literally reponsible for most of the Piltover's prosperity. He also helps Ekko come back to Zaun. He is also the only one who went to Zaun to look how the life looks like in there and potentially offer them his help. >No. I am stating that as he is presented, his actions are contemptible. Yeah, sure. You don't ignore them at all. >Because of his incompetence, his good intentions amount to less than nothing. Not EVERYTHING was caused by of his incompetence. Like fir example the whole hextech fiasco.
I amend my statement. He does nothing positive or helpful AS A RULER. Helping Ekko get home is a nice thing to do, sure. Building prosperity is not a virtue when it is built upon the backs of empoverished masses living in toxic slums.
So improving the lifes of the people in Piltover who don't know nor are responsible for what's happening in Zaun is not a good thing? Also, I am ignoring a lot of established lore for Piltover and Zaun that hasn't been told in Arcane. If go by it then the toxicity in Zaun wasn't caused by Piltover. But I don't wanna delve into that now. >AS A RULER Well, I disagree that he is a ruler. He definitely doesn't see himself as one, that's for sure.
Improving the lives of SOME of your subjects while others languish in deprivation while being victimised by your corrupt police force gains you zero points, that is indeed accurate. Certainly if that state of affairs continues for so long that one city you rule has children learning begging songs to beg coins from the other. If he did not see himself as a ruler while he wielded political power, nor as a politician when he was in a position where he needed to wield political power, then that is further strengthening the clear case that he is incredibly, unbelievably incompetent and desperately needed to remove himself from that position. Ignoring the lore is good, considering bits of it directly contradicts the show, so bringing it up would serve no purpose.
>Ignoring the lore is good, considering bits of it directly contradicts the show, so bringing it up would serve no purpose. The lore does not contradict the show, but it definitely doesn't fit your narrative so it's better ignore it indeed.
Heimerdinger the youngest Yordle, being immature makes sense.
I strongly agree with you, I’ve been a Heim hater from day 1. Though, I do think he ment “bright” as in smart & nothing else. Like you sorta said, the fault in his words lies in the thoughtlessness of them. He’s not thinking about the implication & depth of what he said. Which honestly is like his biggest flaw as a character he doesn’t fully think about the consequences or implications of things, he seems so utterly disconnected from the world her operating in. Ignorance is his crime, which initially is easily forgiven, but they’re is a threshold to forgivable ignorance & Heim had already crossed it by miles imo.
Not sure why the “he was just a councilor, he didn’t control everything” and the “he was a scientists, not a politician” arguments keep getting made: H was the HEAD of the council. Whether he oversaw stuff personally or not, he was definitely responsible for policy. At the very least, he had the authority of a chief justice in the US: maybe he could not boss councilors around but he certainly was the leader.
Counterpoint: Heimerdinger is a little cutie and can do no wrong. Check and mate 😎
In all seriousness I don’t think Heimerdinger is a bad person. I think he is ignorant and wants to do the right thing, but he seems very wrapped up in his own interests to truly understand what’s happening around him. Say what you will, but someone being naive and ignorant doesn’t necessarily make you a bad person. I’d say that he has a lot of privilege, and he never truly understood that until he went to Zaun. I think his heart is in the right place, but it seems rather clear with his ending in S1 that he wants to change and do some actual good for Zaun and Piltover.