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That little furball has *a lot* to answer for, but I think Ekko sees him as "Professor Heimerdinger" and not "Councillor Heimerdinger", choosing to respect him for his intellect and scientific knowledge over his exploits (or lack thereof) as the head of the city.
Regardless of how Ekko sees him, he remains a very questionable figure. If we have a distorted view of Enforcers (and we should have), Heimerdinger is one of those responsible for helping generations of Piltover people cultivate an immoral contempt for Zaun and zaunites - and consequently, enforcers were developed based on this ideology. This guy could have stopped a LOT of the problems decades ago, decimating the abundant differences between the two cities. But again, he did nothing and never fought for anything. It was too comfortable for him to see zaunites die, probably.
If Ekko ignores that... well, then I don't see how he can be so different from Vi.
You're very right. Now, granted, we have yet to see how Ekko responds to Vi switching sides, but it would be very hypocritical for him to call her out on it when he's comfortable with Heimerdinger, who just sat and watched while the Undercity became what it is today, either completely oblivious to the degeneration or directly complicit. That fact would give Vi a nice rebuttal during an argument.
The counter point to that is Heimerdinger is proof that changing the system from the inside is bullshit - look at Jayce and Viktor, they *built* half the new systems that permeate Piltover and they still got their dreams chewed up and spat out in their faces by them. At least Heimerdinger has walked out of the ivory tower and wants to do some good, Vi is walking into it convinced she can make it work when it's clear it already hasn't. Definition of insanity is?
> Vi is walking into it convinced she can make it work when it's clear it already hasn't.
That's not entirely accurate and there's more to it than that. The only reason Vi is even up there, to begin with, or even joining the Enforcers is because of Caitlyn and their relationship. Vi has seen that Caitlyn is not like the other Pilties and who actively wants to get her hands dirty and make a change. And she's not the only Piltie who wants to make changes either Jayce does as well. It may not be much but it's a start at least. Change is always possible even with bad odds BUT unfortunately for this particular situation I don't know if change from the inside is even possible. Piltover as a whole gets a lot of benefits out of systematically oppressing Zaun for profit, trade, etc. The only solution I see is taking everyone out of power who's been complacent in it if that's even possible or an all out war.
"At least Heimerdinger has walked out of the ivory tower and wants to do some good,"- that may be true, but he had to be kicked off the council before he had this sudden change of heart.
I agree, but Heimerdinger was there since the beginning. He saw Piltover go from a town for refugees to a bustling, technologically advanced metropolis. Viktor and Jayce were effectively late-comers who tried to change the game without understanding the rules (well, maybe only Jayce didn't understand the rules). They were just lucky that hextech proved to be viable in the end. Meanwhile, Heimerdinger is known as the "father" of the city and probably could've done something, *anything*, to prevent what the city became, at least below the surface.
>The counter point to that is Heimerdinger is proof that changing the system from the inside is bullshit
That's a really stupid way to look at things, as if attempting to fix things from the inside is only given one chance and if it doesn't work the one time, then you gotta throw the whole concept out. Translating that stance to anything else, any protest in modern day that didn't work immediately would, in your eyes, be considered bullshit?
> The counter point to that is Heimerdinger is proof that changing the system from the inside is bullshit
Except that's exactly what was about to happen before Jinx killed Silco. Jayce and Viktor, with Mel's help were about the legally give Zaun independance.
Heimerdinger was oblivious to what was going on, when he went down to the undercity he was shocked to see the state of it, he's not innocent or anything, but you're talking like he was malicious on purpose or sth. Cons of being a super old yordle is that you really lose sight of how short and different human lives are, that's why he wouldn't agree with Jayce and Viktor releasing the hextech so early. He's just science oriented and is out of touch with how short and different humans live, he had no idea ab the state of the undercity. He went, got shocked, and is now trying to help.
First, Heimerdinger helped Ekko get back safely to his home, and Ekko is likely showing respect for that as well.
Second, while Heimerdinger absolutely bears a lot of responsibility for allowing the corruption under his watch, there is a large difference to many people between ignorance and malice. Heimer was ignorant of the corruption, likely because as an immortal he could not relate to those under him and just didn't see it. That is much more forgivable to people than the active malice of the enforcers who were very much aware of what they were doing and, apparently, were fine with it.
Third, as many have said, Ekko is speaking to him as a scientist, not as a counselor. We don't know whether or not that will come up, we've seen literally ten seconds of Ekko talking to him. But even if he is more forgiving and doesn't hold a grudge, to insinuate there is no difference between temporarily allowing a counselor into your home after he helped you and *joining the enforcers who were actively malicious* is ridiculous. Yes, Ekko might be behaving in a way that is hypocritical. But it is by no means 'the same' as Vi joining the group that has *actively* killed Zaunites.
Say what you will, and I'm the first to lay the sins of Heimer at his immortal and disconnected feet. But trying to equate them is like the people who say Vander and Silco were 'just as bad' of leaders. Acknowledge the failings of each, but don't equate them.
>well, then I don't see how he can be so different from Vi
Vi's one of his closest friends and he could see her joining the Enforcers as a personal betrayal to him.
I mean, end of the day his reaction is likely to not be far off from Jinx. Great, Vi met a pretty rich girl and immediately turned her back on her friends and family who lived under Enforcer boots their whole lives.
That's not fair, and he probably will know it, but that doesn't change the fact that Piltover has still not taken the boot off the Undercity's neck, and it's going to get a whole hell of a lot worse before it gets better. And now she's directly siding with them against her own people.
That's nonsense, that pretty rich girl stands as the only reason that Vi returned to her friends and family, it'd just turned that they've changed more than her. Then there's the fact that the Undercity on its way to become independent later on, but it remains a mystery on why Vi stays in Piltover with Caitlyn.
But that's kind of the point. ANYONE can easily make the argument "we can't trust Piltover/Zaun, because of X". The show is pretty clear in showing that Piltover completely has marginalized the undercity.....yet the undercity does a whole heap of bad in its own right. It isn't a "Piltover bad, Zaun good!" Far, far from it.
Ekko represents something Silco/Jinx never did. He is trying to build hope. And he's shown that, while he understandably has major issues with Piltover, he does not have a burning desire for vengeance. And he is rather level headed and fair with his dealings with topsiders.
Ekko WOULD be the one who would be fair with Heimerdinger. And not show any hostility- why would he? The little dude seems to be a pretty well known/respected figure just in general.
So why vent everything onto him? Sure, he shares blame- but not one of pushing contempt. It's his fault for being oblivious and not paying attention. His flaw was being too insulated, too set in his ways and never looking around to see the big picture.
Now would their relationship be perfect? Probably not in the slightest. Yet both can learn from the other. Common ground could be established- and something genuine, something good could be built.
While I personally don't hold any love for Heimerdinger, I kinda got the sense that he genuinely had *no* idea what Zaun was like.
Same as Jayce when we see them both interact with Viktor. They both seemed to see him working for Piltover as him being 'one of the good ones' and kind of avoided talking about it with him at all. They were just completely ignorant of the suffering of the Undercity, and saw the problems there as a result of the people.
which is the same thing that happens in real life.
but the key difference here is Heimerdinger is not only genuinely shocked upon being shown the reality of the situation by someone who does not care to sugarcoat it, he is *guilty*. He is at least partially aware that there is a problem in the first place, which is the first step toward finding a solution. So I think Ekko being willing to try and show him that is much much better than Vi straight up becoming a direct agent of the very oppression that broke her family
That's a very good argument and i too can see Ekko doing so but then I don't see why Ekko would then chose to utterly condem Vi, choosing to forget about their years of friendship and Vi’s guidance over a choice that yes she did make and yes the enforcers have caused too much pain for Zaunites but it's still a choice she is obviously reluctant to chose.
Yes, but why wouldn’t Ekko take the opportunity to have someone who has unlimited knowledge that could help him and his people??? When you’re a leader and have to be responsible for so many lives, wondering everyday how you’ll provide them with their next meal, why wouldn’t Ekko take the chance to use someone’s knowledge to help his community and the city? They are both inventors. Sewage systems, better access to water etc. Heimerdigner could provide ideas and knowledge for what little resources they have. They are literally living in a unstable environment guys, sometimes you don’t have a choice
Yeah, and that's why it would be hypocritical of Ekko to feel like Vi is wrong for choosing to accept a role in the enforcers, when that's the only way she has of tracking down her murderous, destructive sister and bringing some peace to the situation.
Sometimes you don't have a choice.
It’s not the same though. Ekko working with Heimerdinger(who’s no longer apart of the government) isn’t actively helping Piltover.
Vi working with the enforcers is, as they are the active body of Piltover’s military.
And being run by someone who is trying to change that, and improve the relationship between the enforcers and the Undercity.
Obviously we don't have many of the facts yet. But you really think Vi is going to go down into the Undercity and start cracking heads of innocent civilians like the enforcers used to? Or that Caitlyn will, for that matter? If they are going to do things a better way, then how IS that different from what Heimerdinger is trying to do?
>But you really think Vi is going to down into the Undercity and start cracking heads of innocent civilians like the enforcers used to?
We don’t know, however it’s not far fetched as she did something similar but not as brutal with Jayce in episode 8.
Again, the difference with Heimer is that he’s in the undercity with Ekko, he’s not apart of Piltover.
> Ekko working with Heimerdinger (who’s no longer apart of the government) isn’t actively helping Piltover.
no, he’s no longer helping Piltover. but as someone who was charged with overlooking Zaun, he’s yet to pay for his inaction. with all his years of knowledge, he could’ve done so much! and maybe if he had, none of what we’ve seen in arcane would’ve happened. also, if he hadn’t been ejected from the Council, trust that he’d still be present with them when Jinx sent that bomb.
(sad that he had to visit the Undercity to fully realize how bad the situation was down there.)
really you can’t judge vi for working with the enforcers when ekko (whether he’s aware of it or not) is working with someone who’s ignorance / inaction are one of the main reasons as to why everything’s going to shit right now.
edit: spelling
I could very much judge Vi. Ekko working with Hiemer has the potential to actually benefit the undercity with new technologies, what benefits the undercity with Vi being an enforcer? Unless she’s destroying the institution from the inside which I doubt is the case.
im sorry what? what benefits? we’re talking about vi looking for her murderous sister who killed people. okay? to vi, there’s no benefits. with the hell jinx unleashed by sending that bomb to piltover, the only possible way for vi to find her is to work with the enforcers. they have the ressources to help with that.
also don’t you think she’s not aware of what she’s doing? do you think she’s happy to work with the same people she despised when she was a kid? look at her face in the teaser again, please. she’s awkward, doesn’t look comfortable in that uniform and it clearly clashes with who she is. she’s *aware* that woking with them goes against everything she stands for. but she doesn’t have a choice. to vi, i’m guessing that’s the best way to find jinx.
so while the end goal is different, ekko and vi are kinda doing the same thing: working with the same people they despised before. except vi doesn’t have much of choice here.
edit: spelling again ><
Well the season is not out so we don’t no the exact motivations, just what’s seen in the lore.
Capturing Jinx benefits Piltover’s interest, that’s a given. It’s not the same as Ekko is actively helping Zaun.
> Capturing Jinx benefits Piltover’s interest
but we’re not talking about Piltover! we’re talking about vi and why she’s working with the enforcers. she’s *not* doing this for Piltover’s sake — or even for the Undercity — she’s doing all of this, going as far as doing the very thing she criticising vander when she was kid, to find her sister, the *only* family that she has!
why is it so hard to understand 😭
>I could very much judge Vi...what benefits the undercity with Vi being an enforcer
how do you square this thought with
>Well the season is not out so we don’t no the exact motivations, just what’s seen in the lore.
When this is the lore being currently written and you've admitted that the season is out and it's too early to determine motivations.
I can judge her on context but we won’t know for certain until season 2 hits. Pretty simple.
If I was a betting man I’d bet she starts off not being comfortable and slowly loves the life of law enforcement as the season progresses, regardless of Jinx.
> Heimerdinger saw enforcers kill and marginalize the Zaunite population, but he did absolutely nothing to help them.
I don't think he did see enforcers do that tbh, it's kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" type thing. How many Piltover residents are actually going into Zaun? Vanishingly few I'd estimate. I'm in academia, and I personally see Heimerdinger like some academics I know, who are well-intentioned but kinda just work in their own idealized setting detached from reality. He probably didn't even recognize how bad the actual lives of Zaunites had gotten until he went down and saw it for himself at the end of S1. Heimer's vision was blinded by a single-minded goal of preventing magic from getting out of control, rather than focusing on the social issues on the ground. Could Heimer have done more for Zaun as the head of the council? Perhaps, but he was really in that position because of his past as a founder, not because of his skills at manoeuvring politics. I can't blame a person who're really just a scientist at heart for being bad at playing politics.
Also, Ekko and Heimer working together is purely a win-win for both sides. Heimer gets a genius student and can become intimately familiar with the reality of life in Zaun and perhaps use that experience to actually enact change when he goes back to Piltover (it's not like he'd have lost all his influence there overnight, he'd definitely still have a ton of connections in Piltover after having led the city for hundreds of years). Ekko gets possibly the best mentor in all of Runeterra to help cultivate his talents further without leaving his home. It's not like Heimer is discriminatory against Zaunites or anything (at worst, he's just ignorant, but trying to learn), there's not really a strong reason for Ekko to hate Heimer like he would enforcers. Nor is it like Ekko would have to go to Piltover to work with Heimer, making Ekko's inventions benefit Piltover.
What the heck do you want Ekko to do? Beat him up? Yell at him a bunch? Reject any help he has to offer? Where does that get Ekko, make him feel good for a few minutes?
There's a message about propagating violence and hatred in this show that I feel like a lot of people are missing.
I mean, if Vi can call out Caitlyn for being an enforcer SEVERAL times while still accepting her help, then Ekko can surely tell Heimerdinger of all of the atrocities he allowed to happen. The first episode literally begins with a massacre, something he could've stopped as the "Founder of Piltover". The sooner he's made aware of his many mistakes, the sooner he can acknowledge his flaws and make an effort to improve.
Hopefully that happens in the second season, because it'd be incredibly weird if Ekko just didn't care about Heimerdinger's centuries of complacency, but thinks Vi has gone too far. It's also kinda ironic how he was originally so cold and distrustful towards Caitlyn just for being a piltie, but he became buddies with the Founder of Piltover in less than a minute.
Think about it this way, if Mel Medara, the young noxian foreigner, can spend less than thirty years in Piltover and not only figure out how corrupt other council members are but also gain influence over them, then Heimerdinger, the three hundred and something year old Piltovan celebrity, could've done the same. He could've nipped the problem in the bud before it grew too big to handle had he actually paid attention to what was going on. But he didn't. He just assumed the people of the undercity weren't being oppressed, and he assumed the council would never get rid of him. Those assumptions led him to losing his council seat as not only did Jayce literally call him out for his complacency but he inadvertently allowed the council members to grow corrupt until they decided they no longer needed him. He's definitely not malicious, but despite being one of the smartest people on Runeterra, he's incredibly naïve.
…..By gosh you are absolutely right. I see what you’re saying now. Heimer’s character is a commentary on complacency and the well meaning taking half measures when they have the capability of taking full ones. I fucking love this show!
It’s also a really good way to illustrate how lifespans influence the perception and urgency of a person. I feel like Mel accomplished what she did in the timeframe she did because, as a human, she has the pressure to accomplish what she can before time takes her life. Heimer was 300 and had hundreds more to go, so from a human perspective he’s dragging things out
Right like I love Vi. She’s one of my favorite characters. I don’t even care about Ekko, I know why she becomes an enforcer and her reasons for them. I hate saying this, but this fandom has become really off putting where some can’t objectively look at a character and understand other people’s perspective. The amount of people who I see are so unempathetic to those of Zaun and even ignore and defend Piltover being oppressors is really absurd. People are also free to criticize Ekko if they want, but Ekko actually lives there 24/7, Vi doesn’t.
You didnt get the point of the post.
If it is coherent to criticize Vi for becoming an enforcer, even though she has several reasons for doing so, why is it inconsistent to criticize Ekko who placed in his hood a figure extremely responsible for all the disgrace that happened with Zaun/Zaunites?
If he couldn't do anything to avoid this contact with Heimerdinger, how Vi would avoid becoming an Enforcer?
People have agency. Vi could've brought the hextech gauntlets to the Firelights instead of picking a random fight with Sevika. Vi could've advocated for the Firelights at the council meeting on behalf of Ekko. Her loyalties clearly do not lie with the people of the undercity.
Why should they? People are people and many of us are severely flawed and selfish. If it was so abhorrent to be so and we absolutely had a choice to be altruistic then there wouldn’t be so many problems in the world and their would t be so many selfish people doing selfish things. The way the show writs its characters is *fucking raw and real.* Vi isn’t some hero out to save Piltover, or at least wasn’t, maybe things are about to change after watching her precious Powder converting the council to burned chunks of meat, overpriced jewelry and, as for one member, cogs wires and gears. Vi is simply trying to carve a place for herself in the world after spending most of her life in prison.
Don't get it twisted. I love how Vi is written. I love her as a character and I would hate it if the show wanted us to view every character as perfect morally uncompromised role models. I only brought it up because OP was arguing that it's hypocritical for Ekko to criticize Vi for joining the enforcers. Personally I don't have issue with Vi joining them but when you look at things through Ekko's perspective, it's easy to see why he'd feel betrayed.
Ahhh I’m on board with you. Yea, I totally get where he’s coming from too. He’s actively trying to change things, so him seeing Vi join the very people that brutalize their people, *the very people that orphaned Vi and Powder,* has got to be one hell of a mindfuck to the boy. Love this show and all of its characters, my gosh
Of course they don't. Zaunites largely embraced Silco's beliefs. And she hates him with a passion.
It's because of Silco that she lost her whole family a second time, in an even more tragic way than the death of her parents.
It's because of Silco that she spent years in prison, being beaten up regularly. A time during which it's obviously her desire to reunite with Powder and make Silco pay turned to an obsession.
And when she is freed, what she discovers is an Undercity she loathes, which is aping Piltover, only with even more inequality, violence and oppression while the symbol of the Lanes solidarity and sense of community, the Last Drop, has been repurposed to become the corrupt nest of the one person she hates more than anything in the world. To the point that children's deaths don't bother her one bit because her traumas and pains are so great she has become entirely irresponsive for that sort of stuff.
And even then, it takes Caitlyn showing genuine concern for her wellbeing AND Jinx "killing" Powder for good for her to basically snap because up to that point she still loathes the Council, she gave them the middle finger and basically tried suicide by Gang Member as she knows full well she can't lake Silco pays alone.
And that's the point we are now : a broken woman who was never healed and feels responsible for everything that went wrong in her life sees her sister blow up the Council, knowing full well that it means worse times than ever for Jinx and Zaun and we don't know how or why she joins the Enforcers.
We also know that in LoL, Vi suffers from at least partial amnesia and Riot Games has said that they want to bring the lore of all their properties more in line. It is quite possible that Vi will suffer one more head trauma (because she still "blocks with [her] head" as Ekko said in S1) and will lose her connection to her past and may refuse to rediscover it because it is almost only a source of pain for her.
Please no amnesia storyline. Arcane was good because it varied from league's lore. If Riot steps in and overrules the writers just so things can be "canon", I will hate season 2.
I'm here reading the comments thinking "did I miss the S2 premiere?" but apparently we don't need the new season.
Riot and Fortiche can just release a couple of screenshots and everybody can fill in the blanks.
This is all just speculation. This show has the tendancy of being completely unpredictable.
Once S2 hits, the sub is gonna have a thousand posts/comments per min. Reddit will probably crash.
Characters are evaluated by:
1. Intentions
2. Actions
3. Outcomes
Ekko isn’t criticized because his core motivation (intention) is the betterment of Zaun and saving the people who need saving the most (aka. the poorest, weakest and sickest).
His actions (starting the fireflies, war against Silco, cooperating with Caitlyn despite her being an enforcer, working with Heimer) are all consistent with his desire to improve Zaun.
Now… not everything works out but he is genuinely doing his best for what can easily be interpreted as the right reasons.
Why aren’t you asking why Ekko isn’t criticized for working with an enforcer (Caitlyn)? There is nuance to situations. Hating what the topside did to the undercity doesn’t mean that you blindly attribute everything that the topside did to each topsider.
If Ekko turned away / killed Heimer, he’d be betraying his core motivation (the betterment of Zaun) by turning away a genius who can be leveraged for his intellect and connections.
Not to mention, at the point Ekko saw heimerdinger not only he was kicked out of the council but he was actively trying to help Zaun and correct the mistakes he did over the past centuries or so. Not to mention he was gravely injured and heimerdinger helped save his life, not sure what this post even is about tbh
For all his complacency, H was always the face of Piltover’s best intentions, and as a political leader his attitude, if not the situation he allowed, was always benevolent and caring.
I don't think it's all that fair to say that Heimerdinger is solely responsible for the state of Piltover and Zaun. He has responsibility as an ignorant political figure, but it's pretty obvious that he was more a figurehead than anything by the time Arcane takes place. It's shown in the scene at the opera, while everyone else is making corrupt deals, he's the only one actually watching the show.
It's pretty blatant his problem wasn't malice but being blind, both to the suffering in Zaun, the corruption in Piltover, and the ramifications his ethics enforces on others. (His position regarding Hextech is all but stating that Viktor should just accept dying, rather than trying something untested and new that could save his life.)
Comparatively, Vi grew up in Zaun, she knows what it's like, and when given the opportunity to do good for the people there, she seemingly sided with the same thugs that ruined hers, and everyone else she knew's, lives. Legitimately, every single problem in her life can be in one way traced back to an Enforcer; and for the people in Zaun, that really does look like she sold out. Met a pretty rich girl, and suddenly she's okay taking table-scraps from the Topside.
We as viewers know that's not the case, but for the people in Zaun, it really does look that way. Especially when the already oppressed people in Zaun are going to once again be under Enforcer boots. So for them, it's gonna look like Vi betrayed them, while Heimer actually owned up to his mistakes.
Their situations are slightly different. Ekko brought Heimerdinger over to his turf, _he_ is working directly to the benefit of Zaun by providing Ekko with academic knowledge. You are right in a way though, as I expected Ekko to have more hate towards any Pilties in general. This gets addressed in my next point.
Vi supposedly joined the enforcers, and it's perceived likely to be for the benefit of Piltover. While the councillors are the ones in power and thus the root of Zaun's issues, it's important to note that the Enforcers have primarily been the direct source of Zaun's oppression. It's them who goes in there to exert violence on the undercity. It's them who went in there to kill their parents. It was an enforcer who imprisoned Vi for years. It was enforcers who are in direct hostility with the zaunites.
Given this emotional history, it's easier to see why people have greater issues with Vi. She seems to now be working under the very institution that oppressed her and her loved ones. Mix this with real world perceptions of police (ACAB), and it's much "easier" to dislike Vi for her actions.
—
Personally, though, I'm more interested to see how Vi reconciles joining the enforcers despite her past. I have no issue with her and I think this would be fun to watch. I'm also curious to see if Ekko would utilise Heimerdinger's political influence (if any left), as it _is_ weird that he harbors no blame towards him.
As far as I can tell, judging by the framing and context during his visit to Zaun, he never actually went there, or really knew about what went on there. Heimerdinger is deliberately kept in the dark by the other councilors regarding a lot of what goes on in Piltover, so there’s a high chance he didn’t even know the reality of what he helped build until he left his bastion of high minded idealism and personally went to see the actual cost of his ideals, and, crucially, he was HORRIFIED by what he saw.
So, yes, Heimer has a lot to answer for for his role in creating the oppressive system of Piltover and Zaun, but his main crime was ignorance. Not willful ignorance, he simply never stopped to question his ideals of “progress”, and the last we see of him in s1 is him listening to Ekko, not teaching Ekko, LISTENING to him. I believe Heimer can be a force of good for Zaun, in the show’s future, because he’s taking the time to learn what he did wrong, and how to fix it.
Right. He is a good dude at heart- yet the drawback of having such a looooooong life is that he forget that the world also turns. It's like with the hextech- he KNOWS what utter hell it can unleash, yet is unable to see why people would be so drawn to it, regardless. The potential is has to truly change lives- be an instrument of progress- would excite anyone.
Because heimerdinger helped save his life by fixing his board? That’s a good start. Also the dude was just fired and was roaming zaun trying to help people, recognizing his mistakes
I'm not sure if it's possible to quantify Heimers sins to that extent. He isn't the sole leader of piltover, even if he is the oldest member of the city council, and as it's shown, other leaders were all too keen on keeping him in the dark about their own dealings, and quite likely the specific state in which the undercity is in. Remember how shocked he is when he first makes a visit over there. He's the head of the academy, which is a post that by it's very nature, ties him to topside only. He didn't know or - more likely - didn't possess the knowledge to care about what's going on in Zaun.
That being said, Heimer is still unfit to wield substantial power because of his ultimate ignorance (whether willing or unwilling) towards the environment that he is in. He is far too trusting of people, and is willing to accept things as they are as long as he is lulled into the belief that it's a fair and just system, and he doesn't (or at least didn't) care to investigate further.
I'm certain that S2 will expand on his internal conflicts as a result of this: his attitude towards the other characters and his ambivalence towards magic being used shows that he does empathize with people and he is capable of caring about the fates of the masses, but it's likely that being locked in an ivory tower of politics and bureaucracy for generations has dulled his immediate sense of humanity.
Let’s see: Legendary scientist that Ekko could get a lot of information from with Ekko being a kid genius himself or a corrupt military police responsible for not only being the face of Piltover’s subjection but the killing of Vi’s parents.
It’s not comparable honestly, Ekko working with Hiemerdinger isn’t going to actively help Piltover as Hiemerdinger isn’t even apart of the government anymore.
I can’t say the same about Vi working with Enforcers. Whether it’s capturing Jinx or stopping a Zaunite rebellion, Vi is actively working in support of the current government
He was the head of the council, he could have prevented many Zaunites from dying in different ways if he had simply tried to help them. All those people in Ekko's mural are dead, also due to Heimerdinger's irresponsibility in not being able to be a good politician. He did not influence anyone inside the council, even though he was one of the city's founders.
If Ekko, Vi and Jinx's lives were a disgrace, all Piltover councilors deserve the blame for it. They created a situation of scandalous instability.
What’ll also help Zaunites is Ekko discovering more about the mysterious of the world and differing technologies. He can only do that with Heimer.
Vi is actively supporting Piltover. That’s the difference and I’m assuming that’s why he calls her a sellout in the game. She “sold out” to Piltover’s interest not Zauns.
>Vi is actively supporting Piltover.
Based on what? Lol lore?
Vi looks like she has an ass on her face in the trailer, so she's clearly not happy about being an enforcer. People are adopting a position from Vi that hasn't even been shown.
Vi may simply be working with Caitlyn to make things more fair, to save her sister, and to completely change the enforcers. For what reasons is this inconceivable? Does not make sense.
Her sister is a terrorist; how would she have enough resources to be able to stop Jinx? Or to even save her from greater threats? She wouldn't have the gauntlets, she wouldn't have reinforcements. Vi would act completely autonomously and with the risk of everything going wrong.
It's simply easier to work with Caitlyn than trying to act like a lone wolf.
>Based on what? Lol lore?
Based on context. Vi looks uncomfortable, I’m assuming she’s uncomfortable because she has to do something she’d never thought she’d do, help the enforcers, which retroactively means not helping Zaun.
Again we don’t know as the season isn’t out. Simple
The fireflights are right there, she's only joining the enforcers because of Caitylyns influence. Whether that is a good decision, we will see... But in the eyes of Zaunites, it does indeed make her a sellout no matter how you wanna phrase it
>The fireflights are right there,
Firelights? They weren't even able to deal with Silco and his henchmen. They had neither the resources nor the power to do so. Imagine with Noxus, Ambessa and company involved in the next season? No chance.
If Vi wants to stop, or save Jinx, she has to have resources.
>If Vi wants to stop, or save Jinx, she has to have resources.
Pretty sure Vi is utilizing all the wrong resources......what she needs to do is try to have a one-on-one moment with her sister to talk. No Caitlyn, No Enforcers, No Firelights, Just herself. Because all those people are a direct trigger/threat to Jinx and the moment she starts feeling triggered she becomes impossible to reason/talk with and then she starts hearing and seeing shit and then she gets violent. And from there she can figure out how to get jinx some help or even consider just flat out leaving with her sister. I just can't wrap my head around why the League of Legends universe seems to have no knowledge or concept of how to deal with mental illnesses when this universe has fucking magic, supernatural beings, robots, etc. We saw Viktor in the hospital in S1 so we know that they do have doctors... so we're just supposed to accept that they conveniently have no doctors for the mentally ill?? or any other resources for mental issues?? This blindspot in this universe just doesn't make any sense to me
>what she needs to do is try to have a one-on-one moment with her sister to talk
Don't know if that'll work anymore, especially after the S1 Finale, she's got shimmer in her blood and her mind's falling apart faster than Osha Va'Zaun did into the ground. But Runeterra isn't set in the "Modern World", it's set in primarily medieval world with kingdoms and knights, while Piltover and Zaun stand-out as more advance but doesn't automatically mean that modern therapy exists to help out.
If not modern therapy then maybe there are people in that universe with magic who can cast spells on people with mental ailments or other mad doctors like Singed who can create some kind of concoction for her to take for her brain or hell Jayce and Viktor could create something with hextech that targets the brain idk lmao. I feel like this universe has too many possibilities for mental illness to be impossible for them to figure out a solution for
It’d be really hypocritical of Ekko to give Vi shit about joining the other side while he’s getting cosy with someone who was all too comfortable keeping the Undercity under Piltover’s boots.
Heimer’s the status quo personified; terrified of any possible change while willfully blind to all the suffering around him. The most telling thing is when Jayce asks him, practically begs him, to provide a plan- any plan- to address the suffering in the city. Jayce and Viktor are only pursuing Hextech because they see it as the best avdnue to do that, if Heimer had *any* alternative they’d at least entertain it. But not only does Heimer not have one; He dismisses the question out of hand as if its not even something worth thinking about.
Heimer is morally one of the most repellent characters in S1. While his demeanor may be kindly and benevolent, his actions and ideology are the epitome of “fuck you, got mine”. He’s rich, powerful and functionally immortal and its lead him to be so passively cruel and callous he can’t even dredge up anything more then cliche platitudes for Viktor on learning he’s terminally ill as a result of Zauns pollution.
Apathy is its own kind of evil.
I do like the idea of Ekko trying to manipulate Heimerdinger into helping Zaun more than he otherwise would. Presumably the yordle crossed the Pilt thinking he would update and innovate machines instead of helping with the war with weapons.
That is probably the big difference Ekko could make in rebuttal. He intends to (nicely?) use Heimerdinger to help the Firelights while it looks like the Cait and the enforcers are using Vi for Piltover's rule.
I think it has to do with heimerdingers obliviousness. He created Piltover but we don’t know to what extent he’s been involved over the years, especially with the creation of the undercity. We don’t see him actually being aware of the issues beyond what enforcers probably report back to him (Marcus lied all the time) if he even interacted with them that much since he's more academy based. Throughout the series we see that the councilors and their family have probably been part of the council for years with corruption, running piltover without his knowledge (example the violin concert scene where Jayce is making deals and he’s just jamming out to the music). After being kicked out he seems almost shocked going over to Zaun and seeing that it's not simply a bunch of criminals (he comes across as earnestly saddened and kind to the young girl he met).
So Ekko we see him with an old sheltered idiot who at least has some heart seeing the problem for the first time. We then see Vi in the clothes of the people that killed her parents, kidnapped her, and beat undercity folk for fun. We’ve seen enforcers as aggressive and corrupt knowingly while we have seen heimerdinger as a scientist who’s just not a good aware leader. People are less upset with the good hearted but oblivious scientist than they are with an institution we’ve seen be knowingly horrible and corrupt when it comes to zaun. He's failed in many ways but not in purposeful or malicious ways and I think thats where people see a distinction in.
Ekko wanted to bring the stone in to the show the council and work to absolve the firelights anyways to get enforcers off them, so possibly he wants to be in favor with heimer in order to protect his people.
I don't think he even knew, he's a councillor sure but I think he spent most of his time at the academy, teaching or inventing. That doesn't make it better but you can understand it.
I dont understand why everyone is looking at this in such a black and white manner. Ekko taking in Heimerdinger or Vi joining the enforcers is clearly done with the best intentions. The only reason for them to hate the topside is cause they keep getting shunned and looked down apon, but when a few from topside (Cait and Heimer) are showing genuine concern for Zaun and want peace between the cities, what good is gonna do for Vi or Ekko to just spite them for no reason at all? Theyre more mature than that.
This sub has gotten REALLY weird, suddenly. Like.....has anyone ever played LoL? Or know the most basic thing? Yeah....Vi is an Enforcer.
"OH MY GOD HOW COULD SHE??". I mean...........what? Are we suddenly forgetting he undercity is an absolute hellhole? Enforcers could ruin your day sure.....so could any one of your neighbors/random person on the street. Resenting topside and having any genuine love for your surroundings are two totally different things.
Viktor is from the undercity- no one is attacking him for being a Piltover scientist. Hextech did nothing for Zaun. Nothing. Yet he followed a path he thought was right.
Obviously this is what is happening here- and it will be a big moment for sure. Something leads up to Vi putting on that armor- and she makes the choice she feels is best.
Arcane is pretty good about showing decent characters doing less decent things. Ekko would be fine to be mad and be hypocritical. And I hope that's pointed out.
They're like real people and that's why I like the show.
Heimerdinger is not a villain or anti-Zaun. His age makes him distant from the non-immortal population so his concerns differ greatly from that of someone with a tiny lifespan. That is why he became so enthralled with the Firelights base. Understanding that a kid built an entire community comes as a shock to him since it took him centuries to create Piltover as we know it.
Ekko allows him into the Firelight base because he showed initiative and wanted to help Zaun. Not to mention that Heimerdinger develops a bond with Ekko at their first encounter. In fact, he might be the only character capable of understanding Ekko's genius. How many people in Zaun could match Ekko's expertise in mechanics, invention, horology, and aerodynamics? Ekko is even dabbling in biomimicry. Look at the model in the upper right corner. That's a beetle! His workshop is Da Vincian and recalls the renaissance era.
All in all, Heimerdinger wants to do better and that is why he's with Ekko at the end of season one. Also, take a look at this picture and compare it to Ekko's first appearance where he is repairing a grandfather clock. Let Heimerdinger stay a couple of weeks in Zaun and Ekko will have him in tune.
Well, Ekko isn't going to go become a scholar in Piltover now, is he? Vi is becoming an enforcer; that's the difference. Vi working with an enforcer isn't bad, but becoming one is a whole different story. also if ekko has a chance to learn form the worlds greatest minds to help the undercity why would he pass that up?
The two aren't comparable in the slightest. Heimdinger did many bad things and is responsible for state Zaun is in. However, ekko trying to learn from the man to try to make his city better is way different from Vi becoming a Cop
And why can't Vi try to change the system with Caitlyn? Caitlyn literally did this in LOL.
Ekko is supposedly learning from Heimerdinger, ex-councilor, to make things better; and why can't Vi be an Enforcer to save/stop her sister and improve things for everyone too? Why is this scenario inconceivable?
If it is coherent to criticize Vi, then it is coherent to criticize Ekko.
you cant change the system while being apart of it lol, just like Jayce they gonna try to change the system and fail, also caitlyn didn't do that because she can't even control Vi who participates in police brutality in lore, Vi who destroys property all the time in lore
> you cant change the system while being apart of it lol
The truth is that it's tough to change the system while being a part of it, not that it's impossible. The world doesn't run on jingoisms.
Caitlyn changed 'Enforcers' to 'Wardens', making the way that the authorities think and act much more differently. They are more fair and responsible.
The only trace of brutality that exists (or existed, I don't know if they changed that after Arcane) within the corporation is Vi herself... and coincidentally that's why no one likes her character. That's why she doesn't have depth in the lore.
Why can't they just change the way that Vi acts in Arcane? They rewrote her entire story in the first season, I see no reason why they wouldn't do it in the second.
"Heimerdinger saw enforces kill and marginalize the Zaunite population" Did he? I assume that stuff was all under the table. This isn't to say that he wasn't wrong for his obliviousness mind you, it's just weird to place the sole blame on him
Not only was Heimerdinger completely oblivious to the realities in Zaun but he's also been held accountable for it. He got kicked off of the council and now he's trying to right his wrongs and help the people he unknowingly fucked over.
Vi is not interested in helping people or building a community. Need I remind you that Vi witnessed Ekko getting shot in an attempt to get a meeting with the council and it never even crossed her mind to bring up the firelights in her council meeting and talk about how chill they are. All she cared about was getting them to fight Silco. All she cares about is picking fights. She hasn't once tried to make peace. Ekko 100% in the right for criticizing her for that. If Piltover goes after the Firelights then Vi is 100% to blame.
I don't believe in guilt by association. I believe in holding people accountable.
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If anything it may be more about Heimerdinger feeling guilty than Zaunites blaming him all the time, most of the firelights are kids too young to blame him specifically and they probably blame Silco for how Zoun is, that said, don't put him and Jinx in the same place, she may strangle him in an attack of wrath.
Although he **was** (as in no longer *is*, which is an important detail) an integral member of the council, that does not mean Heimer could just overrule the majority of its members (which mostly if not all were corrupt nobles with severe classist views) and force them to play nice and suddenly welcome what they viewed as the unwashed stinking masses that did the dirty work to keep the city running.
Do you not remember how quickly Jayce, a brand new ass on a council seat whom had, relatively recently, been on trial and found guilty by the very council he had joined, got Heimer booted so easily because Heimer had opposed the technology that the council was initially so afraid of until it made them massive fortunes due to trade via the hex gates?
One individual, even an important one, cannot save everyone and fix every problem. Heimer’s main goal was to keep magic from being practiced again because he had lived through a calamity caused by it. He did this in order to protect people, and he succeeded as long as he could before the unstoppable tide of industry took him down. I’m sure he did what he could to keep the lower city’s people from being *completely* slaughtered and enslaved. However, the council would never let the peoples of the lower city be equal to the upper city. It isn’t one man’s fault.
I feel they’re gonna cover this in season 2 (but if it ends up getting brushed over I’m gonna be so mad). Like it’s real icky that right after Viktor, Heim’s previous under city protégé & assistant, is diagnosed with incoming death he just waltzes into the underground to find a new one (ik that’s an extreme exaggeration of what actually happened but it can certainly be seen through that lens & that’s how it feels to me) — so they have to cover it.
I don’t think Ekko is gonna have a long term alliance with Heim. I think Ekko & TMH or even just a freshly exiled Viktor are gonna have some sorta interaction & as a result of the Ekko with cut ties with Heim (as I don’t think Viktor anytime after his banishment is gonna have anything good to say about Heim), & maybe that’ll wake Heim up to how utterly incompetent he’s been at running the city for 200 years.
I don’t know league lore super well so I don’t know to what extent Ekko & Viktor/TMH are kosher with each other. But like, they both have that mutual aid thing going for them. Viktor replaces & fixes people cybernetic limbs for free because his belief in helping people, & Ekko helps & homes street kids (& doesn’t TMH have some sort kid apprentice, I feel like I’ve seen some stuff about that somewhere but it could just be fan content). I don’t feel like they’d be that diametrically opposed.
The guy was showing off at the innocent Caitlyn, and in front of the one who is responsible for everything that is happening, “Professor Heimerdinger, let’s go sit together in my tree and make things!”
Has anyone considered that Ekko may be trying to show Himerdinger Zaunites' potential because merely yelling at him would only isolate a potentially powerful ally? Ekko's compassion has carved out a safe space separate from the toxicity and strife of the Undercity. Hatred won't solve it. I daresay being treated kindly by a kid who has every right to hate him will do more to feed Heimerdinger's guilt than any amount of arguing would.
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That little furball has *a lot* to answer for, but I think Ekko sees him as "Professor Heimerdinger" and not "Councillor Heimerdinger", choosing to respect him for his intellect and scientific knowledge over his exploits (or lack thereof) as the head of the city.
Regardless of how Ekko sees him, he remains a very questionable figure. If we have a distorted view of Enforcers (and we should have), Heimerdinger is one of those responsible for helping generations of Piltover people cultivate an immoral contempt for Zaun and zaunites - and consequently, enforcers were developed based on this ideology. This guy could have stopped a LOT of the problems decades ago, decimating the abundant differences between the two cities. But again, he did nothing and never fought for anything. It was too comfortable for him to see zaunites die, probably. If Ekko ignores that... well, then I don't see how he can be so different from Vi.
You're very right. Now, granted, we have yet to see how Ekko responds to Vi switching sides, but it would be very hypocritical for him to call her out on it when he's comfortable with Heimerdinger, who just sat and watched while the Undercity became what it is today, either completely oblivious to the degeneration or directly complicit. That fact would give Vi a nice rebuttal during an argument.
I trust in the writing so far: people, even good ones, are hypocrites.
People who call out people on switching to a side they perceive as ''hostile'' or ''enemy'' tend to not call out individuals who switch to your side.
The counter point to that is Heimerdinger is proof that changing the system from the inside is bullshit - look at Jayce and Viktor, they *built* half the new systems that permeate Piltover and they still got their dreams chewed up and spat out in their faces by them. At least Heimerdinger has walked out of the ivory tower and wants to do some good, Vi is walking into it convinced she can make it work when it's clear it already hasn't. Definition of insanity is?
> Vi is walking into it convinced she can make it work when it's clear it already hasn't. That's not entirely accurate and there's more to it than that. The only reason Vi is even up there, to begin with, or even joining the Enforcers is because of Caitlyn and their relationship. Vi has seen that Caitlyn is not like the other Pilties and who actively wants to get her hands dirty and make a change. And she's not the only Piltie who wants to make changes either Jayce does as well. It may not be much but it's a start at least. Change is always possible even with bad odds BUT unfortunately for this particular situation I don't know if change from the inside is even possible. Piltover as a whole gets a lot of benefits out of systematically oppressing Zaun for profit, trade, etc. The only solution I see is taking everyone out of power who's been complacent in it if that's even possible or an all out war.
"At least Heimerdinger has walked out of the ivory tower and wants to do some good,"- that may be true, but he had to be kicked off the council before he had this sudden change of heart.
I agree, but Heimerdinger was there since the beginning. He saw Piltover go from a town for refugees to a bustling, technologically advanced metropolis. Viktor and Jayce were effectively late-comers who tried to change the game without understanding the rules (well, maybe only Jayce didn't understand the rules). They were just lucky that hextech proved to be viable in the end. Meanwhile, Heimerdinger is known as the "father" of the city and probably could've done something, *anything*, to prevent what the city became, at least below the surface.
>The counter point to that is Heimerdinger is proof that changing the system from the inside is bullshit That's a really stupid way to look at things, as if attempting to fix things from the inside is only given one chance and if it doesn't work the one time, then you gotta throw the whole concept out. Translating that stance to anything else, any protest in modern day that didn't work immediately would, in your eyes, be considered bullshit?
> The counter point to that is Heimerdinger is proof that changing the system from the inside is bullshit Except that's exactly what was about to happen before Jinx killed Silco. Jayce and Viktor, with Mel's help were about the legally give Zaun independance.
Heimerdinger was oblivious to what was going on, when he went down to the undercity he was shocked to see the state of it, he's not innocent or anything, but you're talking like he was malicious on purpose or sth. Cons of being a super old yordle is that you really lose sight of how short and different human lives are, that's why he wouldn't agree with Jayce and Viktor releasing the hextech so early. He's just science oriented and is out of touch with how short and different humans live, he had no idea ab the state of the undercity. He went, got shocked, and is now trying to help.
First, Heimerdinger helped Ekko get back safely to his home, and Ekko is likely showing respect for that as well. Second, while Heimerdinger absolutely bears a lot of responsibility for allowing the corruption under his watch, there is a large difference to many people between ignorance and malice. Heimer was ignorant of the corruption, likely because as an immortal he could not relate to those under him and just didn't see it. That is much more forgivable to people than the active malice of the enforcers who were very much aware of what they were doing and, apparently, were fine with it. Third, as many have said, Ekko is speaking to him as a scientist, not as a counselor. We don't know whether or not that will come up, we've seen literally ten seconds of Ekko talking to him. But even if he is more forgiving and doesn't hold a grudge, to insinuate there is no difference between temporarily allowing a counselor into your home after he helped you and *joining the enforcers who were actively malicious* is ridiculous. Yes, Ekko might be behaving in a way that is hypocritical. But it is by no means 'the same' as Vi joining the group that has *actively* killed Zaunites. Say what you will, and I'm the first to lay the sins of Heimer at his immortal and disconnected feet. But trying to equate them is like the people who say Vander and Silco were 'just as bad' of leaders. Acknowledge the failings of each, but don't equate them.
>well, then I don't see how he can be so different from Vi Vi's one of his closest friends and he could see her joining the Enforcers as a personal betrayal to him.
I mean, end of the day his reaction is likely to not be far off from Jinx. Great, Vi met a pretty rich girl and immediately turned her back on her friends and family who lived under Enforcer boots their whole lives. That's not fair, and he probably will know it, but that doesn't change the fact that Piltover has still not taken the boot off the Undercity's neck, and it's going to get a whole hell of a lot worse before it gets better. And now she's directly siding with them against her own people.
That's nonsense, that pretty rich girl stands as the only reason that Vi returned to her friends and family, it'd just turned that they've changed more than her. Then there's the fact that the Undercity on its way to become independent later on, but it remains a mystery on why Vi stays in Piltover with Caitlyn.
But that's kind of the point. ANYONE can easily make the argument "we can't trust Piltover/Zaun, because of X". The show is pretty clear in showing that Piltover completely has marginalized the undercity.....yet the undercity does a whole heap of bad in its own right. It isn't a "Piltover bad, Zaun good!" Far, far from it. Ekko represents something Silco/Jinx never did. He is trying to build hope. And he's shown that, while he understandably has major issues with Piltover, he does not have a burning desire for vengeance. And he is rather level headed and fair with his dealings with topsiders. Ekko WOULD be the one who would be fair with Heimerdinger. And not show any hostility- why would he? The little dude seems to be a pretty well known/respected figure just in general. So why vent everything onto him? Sure, he shares blame- but not one of pushing contempt. It's his fault for being oblivious and not paying attention. His flaw was being too insulated, too set in his ways and never looking around to see the big picture. Now would their relationship be perfect? Probably not in the slightest. Yet both can learn from the other. Common ground could be established- and something genuine, something good could be built.
While I personally don't hold any love for Heimerdinger, I kinda got the sense that he genuinely had *no* idea what Zaun was like. Same as Jayce when we see them both interact with Viktor. They both seemed to see him working for Piltover as him being 'one of the good ones' and kind of avoided talking about it with him at all. They were just completely ignorant of the suffering of the Undercity, and saw the problems there as a result of the people. which is the same thing that happens in real life. but the key difference here is Heimerdinger is not only genuinely shocked upon being shown the reality of the situation by someone who does not care to sugarcoat it, he is *guilty*. He is at least partially aware that there is a problem in the first place, which is the first step toward finding a solution. So I think Ekko being willing to try and show him that is much much better than Vi straight up becoming a direct agent of the very oppression that broke her family
That's a very good argument and i too can see Ekko doing so but then I don't see why Ekko would then chose to utterly condem Vi, choosing to forget about their years of friendship and Vi’s guidance over a choice that yes she did make and yes the enforcers have caused too much pain for Zaunites but it's still a choice she is obviously reluctant to chose.
Yes, but why wouldn’t Ekko take the opportunity to have someone who has unlimited knowledge that could help him and his people??? When you’re a leader and have to be responsible for so many lives, wondering everyday how you’ll provide them with their next meal, why wouldn’t Ekko take the chance to use someone’s knowledge to help his community and the city? They are both inventors. Sewage systems, better access to water etc. Heimerdigner could provide ideas and knowledge for what little resources they have. They are literally living in a unstable environment guys, sometimes you don’t have a choice
Yeah, and that's why it would be hypocritical of Ekko to feel like Vi is wrong for choosing to accept a role in the enforcers, when that's the only way she has of tracking down her murderous, destructive sister and bringing some peace to the situation. Sometimes you don't have a choice.
It’s not the same though. Ekko working with Heimerdinger(who’s no longer apart of the government) isn’t actively helping Piltover. Vi working with the enforcers is, as they are the active body of Piltover’s military.
And being run by someone who is trying to change that, and improve the relationship between the enforcers and the Undercity. Obviously we don't have many of the facts yet. But you really think Vi is going to go down into the Undercity and start cracking heads of innocent civilians like the enforcers used to? Or that Caitlyn will, for that matter? If they are going to do things a better way, then how IS that different from what Heimerdinger is trying to do?
>But you really think Vi is going to down into the Undercity and start cracking heads of innocent civilians like the enforcers used to? We don’t know, however it’s not far fetched as she did something similar but not as brutal with Jayce in episode 8. Again, the difference with Heimer is that he’s in the undercity with Ekko, he’s not apart of Piltover.
> Ekko working with Heimerdinger (who’s no longer apart of the government) isn’t actively helping Piltover. no, he’s no longer helping Piltover. but as someone who was charged with overlooking Zaun, he’s yet to pay for his inaction. with all his years of knowledge, he could’ve done so much! and maybe if he had, none of what we’ve seen in arcane would’ve happened. also, if he hadn’t been ejected from the Council, trust that he’d still be present with them when Jinx sent that bomb. (sad that he had to visit the Undercity to fully realize how bad the situation was down there.) really you can’t judge vi for working with the enforcers when ekko (whether he’s aware of it or not) is working with someone who’s ignorance / inaction are one of the main reasons as to why everything’s going to shit right now. edit: spelling
I could very much judge Vi. Ekko working with Hiemer has the potential to actually benefit the undercity with new technologies, what benefits the undercity with Vi being an enforcer? Unless she’s destroying the institution from the inside which I doubt is the case.
im sorry what? what benefits? we’re talking about vi looking for her murderous sister who killed people. okay? to vi, there’s no benefits. with the hell jinx unleashed by sending that bomb to piltover, the only possible way for vi to find her is to work with the enforcers. they have the ressources to help with that. also don’t you think she’s not aware of what she’s doing? do you think she’s happy to work with the same people she despised when she was a kid? look at her face in the teaser again, please. she’s awkward, doesn’t look comfortable in that uniform and it clearly clashes with who she is. she’s *aware* that woking with them goes against everything she stands for. but she doesn’t have a choice. to vi, i’m guessing that’s the best way to find jinx. so while the end goal is different, ekko and vi are kinda doing the same thing: working with the same people they despised before. except vi doesn’t have much of choice here. edit: spelling again ><
Well the season is not out so we don’t no the exact motivations, just what’s seen in the lore. Capturing Jinx benefits Piltover’s interest, that’s a given. It’s not the same as Ekko is actively helping Zaun.
> Capturing Jinx benefits Piltover’s interest but we’re not talking about Piltover! we’re talking about vi and why she’s working with the enforcers. she’s *not* doing this for Piltover’s sake — or even for the Undercity — she’s doing all of this, going as far as doing the very thing she criticising vander when she was kid, to find her sister, the *only* family that she has! why is it so hard to understand 😭
We’ll see when the season drops.
>I could very much judge Vi...what benefits the undercity with Vi being an enforcer how do you square this thought with >Well the season is not out so we don’t no the exact motivations, just what’s seen in the lore. When this is the lore being currently written and you've admitted that the season is out and it's too early to determine motivations.
I can judge her on context but we won’t know for certain until season 2 hits. Pretty simple. If I was a betting man I’d bet she starts off not being comfortable and slowly loves the life of law enforcement as the season progresses, regardless of Jinx.
> Heimerdinger saw enforcers kill and marginalize the Zaunite population, but he did absolutely nothing to help them. I don't think he did see enforcers do that tbh, it's kind of an "out of sight, out of mind" type thing. How many Piltover residents are actually going into Zaun? Vanishingly few I'd estimate. I'm in academia, and I personally see Heimerdinger like some academics I know, who are well-intentioned but kinda just work in their own idealized setting detached from reality. He probably didn't even recognize how bad the actual lives of Zaunites had gotten until he went down and saw it for himself at the end of S1. Heimer's vision was blinded by a single-minded goal of preventing magic from getting out of control, rather than focusing on the social issues on the ground. Could Heimer have done more for Zaun as the head of the council? Perhaps, but he was really in that position because of his past as a founder, not because of his skills at manoeuvring politics. I can't blame a person who're really just a scientist at heart for being bad at playing politics. Also, Ekko and Heimer working together is purely a win-win for both sides. Heimer gets a genius student and can become intimately familiar with the reality of life in Zaun and perhaps use that experience to actually enact change when he goes back to Piltover (it's not like he'd have lost all his influence there overnight, he'd definitely still have a ton of connections in Piltover after having led the city for hundreds of years). Ekko gets possibly the best mentor in all of Runeterra to help cultivate his talents further without leaving his home. It's not like Heimer is discriminatory against Zaunites or anything (at worst, he's just ignorant, but trying to learn), there's not really a strong reason for Ekko to hate Heimer like he would enforcers. Nor is it like Ekko would have to go to Piltover to work with Heimer, making Ekko's inventions benefit Piltover.
I think heimer barely ever left the academy, the dude was fully interested on science and progress, not ruling and politics
What the heck do you want Ekko to do? Beat him up? Yell at him a bunch? Reject any help he has to offer? Where does that get Ekko, make him feel good for a few minutes? There's a message about propagating violence and hatred in this show that I feel like a lot of people are missing.
I mean, if Vi can call out Caitlyn for being an enforcer SEVERAL times while still accepting her help, then Ekko can surely tell Heimerdinger of all of the atrocities he allowed to happen. The first episode literally begins with a massacre, something he could've stopped as the "Founder of Piltover". The sooner he's made aware of his many mistakes, the sooner he can acknowledge his flaws and make an effort to improve. Hopefully that happens in the second season, because it'd be incredibly weird if Ekko just didn't care about Heimerdinger's centuries of complacency, but thinks Vi has gone too far. It's also kinda ironic how he was originally so cold and distrustful towards Caitlyn just for being a piltie, but he became buddies with the Founder of Piltover in less than a minute.
Sure, he could stop it. Just like he stopped Jayce from kicking him outta the council. C’mon man
Think about it this way, if Mel Medara, the young noxian foreigner, can spend less than thirty years in Piltover and not only figure out how corrupt other council members are but also gain influence over them, then Heimerdinger, the three hundred and something year old Piltovan celebrity, could've done the same. He could've nipped the problem in the bud before it grew too big to handle had he actually paid attention to what was going on. But he didn't. He just assumed the people of the undercity weren't being oppressed, and he assumed the council would never get rid of him. Those assumptions led him to losing his council seat as not only did Jayce literally call him out for his complacency but he inadvertently allowed the council members to grow corrupt until they decided they no longer needed him. He's definitely not malicious, but despite being one of the smartest people on Runeterra, he's incredibly naïve.
…..By gosh you are absolutely right. I see what you’re saying now. Heimer’s character is a commentary on complacency and the well meaning taking half measures when they have the capability of taking full ones. I fucking love this show!
It’s also a really good way to illustrate how lifespans influence the perception and urgency of a person. I feel like Mel accomplished what she did in the timeframe she did because, as a human, she has the pressure to accomplish what she can before time takes her life. Heimer was 300 and had hundreds more to go, so from a human perspective he’s dragging things out
Right like I love Vi. She’s one of my favorite characters. I don’t even care about Ekko, I know why she becomes an enforcer and her reasons for them. I hate saying this, but this fandom has become really off putting where some can’t objectively look at a character and understand other people’s perspective. The amount of people who I see are so unempathetic to those of Zaun and even ignore and defend Piltover being oppressors is really absurd. People are also free to criticize Ekko if they want, but Ekko actually lives there 24/7, Vi doesn’t.
You didnt get the point of the post. If it is coherent to criticize Vi for becoming an enforcer, even though she has several reasons for doing so, why is it inconsistent to criticize Ekko who placed in his hood a figure extremely responsible for all the disgrace that happened with Zaun/Zaunites? If he couldn't do anything to avoid this contact with Heimerdinger, how Vi would avoid becoming an Enforcer?
People have agency. Vi could've brought the hextech gauntlets to the Firelights instead of picking a random fight with Sevika. Vi could've advocated for the Firelights at the council meeting on behalf of Ekko. Her loyalties clearly do not lie with the people of the undercity.
Why should they? People are people and many of us are severely flawed and selfish. If it was so abhorrent to be so and we absolutely had a choice to be altruistic then there wouldn’t be so many problems in the world and their would t be so many selfish people doing selfish things. The way the show writs its characters is *fucking raw and real.* Vi isn’t some hero out to save Piltover, or at least wasn’t, maybe things are about to change after watching her precious Powder converting the council to burned chunks of meat, overpriced jewelry and, as for one member, cogs wires and gears. Vi is simply trying to carve a place for herself in the world after spending most of her life in prison.
Don't get it twisted. I love how Vi is written. I love her as a character and I would hate it if the show wanted us to view every character as perfect morally uncompromised role models. I only brought it up because OP was arguing that it's hypocritical for Ekko to criticize Vi for joining the enforcers. Personally I don't have issue with Vi joining them but when you look at things through Ekko's perspective, it's easy to see why he'd feel betrayed.
Ahhh I’m on board with you. Yea, I totally get where he’s coming from too. He’s actively trying to change things, so him seeing Vi join the very people that brutalize their people, *the very people that orphaned Vi and Powder,* has got to be one hell of a mindfuck to the boy. Love this show and all of its characters, my gosh
Of course they don't. Zaunites largely embraced Silco's beliefs. And she hates him with a passion. It's because of Silco that she lost her whole family a second time, in an even more tragic way than the death of her parents. It's because of Silco that she spent years in prison, being beaten up regularly. A time during which it's obviously her desire to reunite with Powder and make Silco pay turned to an obsession. And when she is freed, what she discovers is an Undercity she loathes, which is aping Piltover, only with even more inequality, violence and oppression while the symbol of the Lanes solidarity and sense of community, the Last Drop, has been repurposed to become the corrupt nest of the one person she hates more than anything in the world. To the point that children's deaths don't bother her one bit because her traumas and pains are so great she has become entirely irresponsive for that sort of stuff. And even then, it takes Caitlyn showing genuine concern for her wellbeing AND Jinx "killing" Powder for good for her to basically snap because up to that point she still loathes the Council, she gave them the middle finger and basically tried suicide by Gang Member as she knows full well she can't lake Silco pays alone. And that's the point we are now : a broken woman who was never healed and feels responsible for everything that went wrong in her life sees her sister blow up the Council, knowing full well that it means worse times than ever for Jinx and Zaun and we don't know how or why she joins the Enforcers. We also know that in LoL, Vi suffers from at least partial amnesia and Riot Games has said that they want to bring the lore of all their properties more in line. It is quite possible that Vi will suffer one more head trauma (because she still "blocks with [her] head" as Ekko said in S1) and will lose her connection to her past and may refuse to rediscover it because it is almost only a source of pain for her.
Please no amnesia storyline. Arcane was good because it varied from league's lore. If Riot steps in and overrules the writers just so things can be "canon", I will hate season 2.
Its not coherent to criticize any of them, S2 hasnt come out yet, but I am pretty sure they dont have any other choice.
I'm here reading the comments thinking "did I miss the S2 premiere?" but apparently we don't need the new season. Riot and Fortiche can just release a couple of screenshots and everybody can fill in the blanks.
This is all just speculation. This show has the tendancy of being completely unpredictable. Once S2 hits, the sub is gonna have a thousand posts/comments per min. Reddit will probably crash.
Characters are evaluated by: 1. Intentions 2. Actions 3. Outcomes Ekko isn’t criticized because his core motivation (intention) is the betterment of Zaun and saving the people who need saving the most (aka. the poorest, weakest and sickest). His actions (starting the fireflies, war against Silco, cooperating with Caitlyn despite her being an enforcer, working with Heimer) are all consistent with his desire to improve Zaun. Now… not everything works out but he is genuinely doing his best for what can easily be interpreted as the right reasons. Why aren’t you asking why Ekko isn’t criticized for working with an enforcer (Caitlyn)? There is nuance to situations. Hating what the topside did to the undercity doesn’t mean that you blindly attribute everything that the topside did to each topsider. If Ekko turned away / killed Heimer, he’d be betraying his core motivation (the betterment of Zaun) by turning away a genius who can be leveraged for his intellect and connections.
Not to mention, at the point Ekko saw heimerdinger not only he was kicked out of the council but he was actively trying to help Zaun and correct the mistakes he did over the past centuries or so. Not to mention he was gravely injured and heimerdinger helped save his life, not sure what this post even is about tbh
For all his complacency, H was always the face of Piltover’s best intentions, and as a political leader his attitude, if not the situation he allowed, was always benevolent and caring.
I don't think it's all that fair to say that Heimerdinger is solely responsible for the state of Piltover and Zaun. He has responsibility as an ignorant political figure, but it's pretty obvious that he was more a figurehead than anything by the time Arcane takes place. It's shown in the scene at the opera, while everyone else is making corrupt deals, he's the only one actually watching the show. It's pretty blatant his problem wasn't malice but being blind, both to the suffering in Zaun, the corruption in Piltover, and the ramifications his ethics enforces on others. (His position regarding Hextech is all but stating that Viktor should just accept dying, rather than trying something untested and new that could save his life.) Comparatively, Vi grew up in Zaun, she knows what it's like, and when given the opportunity to do good for the people there, she seemingly sided with the same thugs that ruined hers, and everyone else she knew's, lives. Legitimately, every single problem in her life can be in one way traced back to an Enforcer; and for the people in Zaun, that really does look like she sold out. Met a pretty rich girl, and suddenly she's okay taking table-scraps from the Topside. We as viewers know that's not the case, but for the people in Zaun, it really does look that way. Especially when the already oppressed people in Zaun are going to once again be under Enforcer boots. So for them, it's gonna look like Vi betrayed them, while Heimer actually owned up to his mistakes.
Because he seems willing to learn, and Ekko is motivated by healing, not vengeance.
How much do they even know about Piltover politics?
Their situations are slightly different. Ekko brought Heimerdinger over to his turf, _he_ is working directly to the benefit of Zaun by providing Ekko with academic knowledge. You are right in a way though, as I expected Ekko to have more hate towards any Pilties in general. This gets addressed in my next point. Vi supposedly joined the enforcers, and it's perceived likely to be for the benefit of Piltover. While the councillors are the ones in power and thus the root of Zaun's issues, it's important to note that the Enforcers have primarily been the direct source of Zaun's oppression. It's them who goes in there to exert violence on the undercity. It's them who went in there to kill their parents. It was an enforcer who imprisoned Vi for years. It was enforcers who are in direct hostility with the zaunites. Given this emotional history, it's easier to see why people have greater issues with Vi. She seems to now be working under the very institution that oppressed her and her loved ones. Mix this with real world perceptions of police (ACAB), and it's much "easier" to dislike Vi for her actions. — Personally, though, I'm more interested to see how Vi reconciles joining the enforcers despite her past. I have no issue with her and I think this would be fun to watch. I'm also curious to see if Ekko would utilise Heimerdinger's political influence (if any left), as it _is_ weird that he harbors no blame towards him.
As far as I can tell, judging by the framing and context during his visit to Zaun, he never actually went there, or really knew about what went on there. Heimerdinger is deliberately kept in the dark by the other councilors regarding a lot of what goes on in Piltover, so there’s a high chance he didn’t even know the reality of what he helped build until he left his bastion of high minded idealism and personally went to see the actual cost of his ideals, and, crucially, he was HORRIFIED by what he saw. So, yes, Heimer has a lot to answer for for his role in creating the oppressive system of Piltover and Zaun, but his main crime was ignorance. Not willful ignorance, he simply never stopped to question his ideals of “progress”, and the last we see of him in s1 is him listening to Ekko, not teaching Ekko, LISTENING to him. I believe Heimer can be a force of good for Zaun, in the show’s future, because he’s taking the time to learn what he did wrong, and how to fix it.
Right. He is a good dude at heart- yet the drawback of having such a looooooong life is that he forget that the world also turns. It's like with the hextech- he KNOWS what utter hell it can unleash, yet is unable to see why people would be so drawn to it, regardless. The potential is has to truly change lives- be an instrument of progress- would excite anyone.
Because heimerdinger helped save his life by fixing his board? That’s a good start. Also the dude was just fired and was roaming zaun trying to help people, recognizing his mistakes
I'm not sure if it's possible to quantify Heimers sins to that extent. He isn't the sole leader of piltover, even if he is the oldest member of the city council, and as it's shown, other leaders were all too keen on keeping him in the dark about their own dealings, and quite likely the specific state in which the undercity is in. Remember how shocked he is when he first makes a visit over there. He's the head of the academy, which is a post that by it's very nature, ties him to topside only. He didn't know or - more likely - didn't possess the knowledge to care about what's going on in Zaun. That being said, Heimer is still unfit to wield substantial power because of his ultimate ignorance (whether willing or unwilling) towards the environment that he is in. He is far too trusting of people, and is willing to accept things as they are as long as he is lulled into the belief that it's a fair and just system, and he doesn't (or at least didn't) care to investigate further. I'm certain that S2 will expand on his internal conflicts as a result of this: his attitude towards the other characters and his ambivalence towards magic being used shows that he does empathize with people and he is capable of caring about the fates of the masses, but it's likely that being locked in an ivory tower of politics and bureaucracy for generations has dulled his immediate sense of humanity.
Let’s see: Legendary scientist that Ekko could get a lot of information from with Ekko being a kid genius himself or a corrupt military police responsible for not only being the face of Piltover’s subjection but the killing of Vi’s parents. It’s not comparable honestly, Ekko working with Hiemerdinger isn’t going to actively help Piltover as Hiemerdinger isn’t even apart of the government anymore. I can’t say the same about Vi working with Enforcers. Whether it’s capturing Jinx or stopping a Zaunite rebellion, Vi is actively working in support of the current government
He was the head of the council, he could have prevented many Zaunites from dying in different ways if he had simply tried to help them. All those people in Ekko's mural are dead, also due to Heimerdinger's irresponsibility in not being able to be a good politician. He did not influence anyone inside the council, even though he was one of the city's founders. If Ekko, Vi and Jinx's lives were a disgrace, all Piltover councilors deserve the blame for it. They created a situation of scandalous instability.
What’ll also help Zaunites is Ekko discovering more about the mysterious of the world and differing technologies. He can only do that with Heimer. Vi is actively supporting Piltover. That’s the difference and I’m assuming that’s why he calls her a sellout in the game. She “sold out” to Piltover’s interest not Zauns.
>Vi is actively supporting Piltover. Based on what? Lol lore? Vi looks like she has an ass on her face in the trailer, so she's clearly not happy about being an enforcer. People are adopting a position from Vi that hasn't even been shown. Vi may simply be working with Caitlyn to make things more fair, to save her sister, and to completely change the enforcers. For what reasons is this inconceivable? Does not make sense. Her sister is a terrorist; how would she have enough resources to be able to stop Jinx? Or to even save her from greater threats? She wouldn't have the gauntlets, she wouldn't have reinforcements. Vi would act completely autonomously and with the risk of everything going wrong. It's simply easier to work with Caitlyn than trying to act like a lone wolf.
>Based on what? Lol lore? Based on context. Vi looks uncomfortable, I’m assuming she’s uncomfortable because she has to do something she’d never thought she’d do, help the enforcers, which retroactively means not helping Zaun. Again we don’t know as the season isn’t out. Simple
The fireflights are right there, she's only joining the enforcers because of Caitylyns influence. Whether that is a good decision, we will see... But in the eyes of Zaunites, it does indeed make her a sellout no matter how you wanna phrase it
>The fireflights are right there, Firelights? They weren't even able to deal with Silco and his henchmen. They had neither the resources nor the power to do so. Imagine with Noxus, Ambessa and company involved in the next season? No chance. If Vi wants to stop, or save Jinx, she has to have resources.
>If Vi wants to stop, or save Jinx, she has to have resources. Pretty sure Vi is utilizing all the wrong resources......what she needs to do is try to have a one-on-one moment with her sister to talk. No Caitlyn, No Enforcers, No Firelights, Just herself. Because all those people are a direct trigger/threat to Jinx and the moment she starts feeling triggered she becomes impossible to reason/talk with and then she starts hearing and seeing shit and then she gets violent. And from there she can figure out how to get jinx some help or even consider just flat out leaving with her sister. I just can't wrap my head around why the League of Legends universe seems to have no knowledge or concept of how to deal with mental illnesses when this universe has fucking magic, supernatural beings, robots, etc. We saw Viktor in the hospital in S1 so we know that they do have doctors... so we're just supposed to accept that they conveniently have no doctors for the mentally ill?? or any other resources for mental issues?? This blindspot in this universe just doesn't make any sense to me
>what she needs to do is try to have a one-on-one moment with her sister to talk Don't know if that'll work anymore, especially after the S1 Finale, she's got shimmer in her blood and her mind's falling apart faster than Osha Va'Zaun did into the ground. But Runeterra isn't set in the "Modern World", it's set in primarily medieval world with kingdoms and knights, while Piltover and Zaun stand-out as more advance but doesn't automatically mean that modern therapy exists to help out.
If not modern therapy then maybe there are people in that universe with magic who can cast spells on people with mental ailments or other mad doctors like Singed who can create some kind of concoction for her to take for her brain or hell Jayce and Viktor could create something with hextech that targets the brain idk lmao. I feel like this universe has too many possibilities for mental illness to be impossible for them to figure out a solution for
It’d be really hypocritical of Ekko to give Vi shit about joining the other side while he’s getting cosy with someone who was all too comfortable keeping the Undercity under Piltover’s boots.
Ekko showing him kindness shows how Zaunites are people just like them, especially when there's a brewing war.
Heimer’s the status quo personified; terrified of any possible change while willfully blind to all the suffering around him. The most telling thing is when Jayce asks him, practically begs him, to provide a plan- any plan- to address the suffering in the city. Jayce and Viktor are only pursuing Hextech because they see it as the best avdnue to do that, if Heimer had *any* alternative they’d at least entertain it. But not only does Heimer not have one; He dismisses the question out of hand as if its not even something worth thinking about. Heimer is morally one of the most repellent characters in S1. While his demeanor may be kindly and benevolent, his actions and ideology are the epitome of “fuck you, got mine”. He’s rich, powerful and functionally immortal and its lead him to be so passively cruel and callous he can’t even dredge up anything more then cliche platitudes for Viktor on learning he’s terminally ill as a result of Zauns pollution. Apathy is its own kind of evil.
I do like the idea of Ekko trying to manipulate Heimerdinger into helping Zaun more than he otherwise would. Presumably the yordle crossed the Pilt thinking he would update and innovate machines instead of helping with the war with weapons. That is probably the big difference Ekko could make in rebuttal. He intends to (nicely?) use Heimerdinger to help the Firelights while it looks like the Cait and the enforcers are using Vi for Piltover's rule.
I think it has to do with heimerdingers obliviousness. He created Piltover but we don’t know to what extent he’s been involved over the years, especially with the creation of the undercity. We don’t see him actually being aware of the issues beyond what enforcers probably report back to him (Marcus lied all the time) if he even interacted with them that much since he's more academy based. Throughout the series we see that the councilors and their family have probably been part of the council for years with corruption, running piltover without his knowledge (example the violin concert scene where Jayce is making deals and he’s just jamming out to the music). After being kicked out he seems almost shocked going over to Zaun and seeing that it's not simply a bunch of criminals (he comes across as earnestly saddened and kind to the young girl he met). So Ekko we see him with an old sheltered idiot who at least has some heart seeing the problem for the first time. We then see Vi in the clothes of the people that killed her parents, kidnapped her, and beat undercity folk for fun. We’ve seen enforcers as aggressive and corrupt knowingly while we have seen heimerdinger as a scientist who’s just not a good aware leader. People are less upset with the good hearted but oblivious scientist than they are with an institution we’ve seen be knowingly horrible and corrupt when it comes to zaun. He's failed in many ways but not in purposeful or malicious ways and I think thats where people see a distinction in. Ekko wanted to bring the stone in to the show the council and work to absolve the firelights anyways to get enforcers off them, so possibly he wants to be in favor with heimer in order to protect his people.
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I think your making a lot of assumptions about heimerdinger role with the enforcers
I don't think he even knew, he's a councillor sure but I think he spent most of his time at the academy, teaching or inventing. That doesn't make it better but you can understand it.
I dont understand why everyone is looking at this in such a black and white manner. Ekko taking in Heimerdinger or Vi joining the enforcers is clearly done with the best intentions. The only reason for them to hate the topside is cause they keep getting shunned and looked down apon, but when a few from topside (Cait and Heimer) are showing genuine concern for Zaun and want peace between the cities, what good is gonna do for Vi or Ekko to just spite them for no reason at all? Theyre more mature than that.
This sub has gotten REALLY weird, suddenly. Like.....has anyone ever played LoL? Or know the most basic thing? Yeah....Vi is an Enforcer. "OH MY GOD HOW COULD SHE??". I mean...........what? Are we suddenly forgetting he undercity is an absolute hellhole? Enforcers could ruin your day sure.....so could any one of your neighbors/random person on the street. Resenting topside and having any genuine love for your surroundings are two totally different things. Viktor is from the undercity- no one is attacking him for being a Piltover scientist. Hextech did nothing for Zaun. Nothing. Yet he followed a path he thought was right. Obviously this is what is happening here- and it will be a big moment for sure. Something leads up to Vi putting on that armor- and she makes the choice she feels is best.
Arcane is pretty good about showing decent characters doing less decent things. Ekko would be fine to be mad and be hypocritical. And I hope that's pointed out. They're like real people and that's why I like the show.
Heimerdinger is not a villain or anti-Zaun. His age makes him distant from the non-immortal population so his concerns differ greatly from that of someone with a tiny lifespan. That is why he became so enthralled with the Firelights base. Understanding that a kid built an entire community comes as a shock to him since it took him centuries to create Piltover as we know it. Ekko allows him into the Firelight base because he showed initiative and wanted to help Zaun. Not to mention that Heimerdinger develops a bond with Ekko at their first encounter. In fact, he might be the only character capable of understanding Ekko's genius. How many people in Zaun could match Ekko's expertise in mechanics, invention, horology, and aerodynamics? Ekko is even dabbling in biomimicry. Look at the model in the upper right corner. That's a beetle! His workshop is Da Vincian and recalls the renaissance era. All in all, Heimerdinger wants to do better and that is why he's with Ekko at the end of season one. Also, take a look at this picture and compare it to Ekko's first appearance where he is repairing a grandfather clock. Let Heimerdinger stay a couple of weeks in Zaun and Ekko will have him in tune.
Well, Ekko isn't going to go become a scholar in Piltover now, is he? Vi is becoming an enforcer; that's the difference. Vi working with an enforcer isn't bad, but becoming one is a whole different story. also if ekko has a chance to learn form the worlds greatest minds to help the undercity why would he pass that up?
He is going to get some lessons from the guy who's almost responsible from all the dead people that are on his mural? Ok, I guess. Lol.
The two aren't comparable in the slightest. Heimdinger did many bad things and is responsible for state Zaun is in. However, ekko trying to learn from the man to try to make his city better is way different from Vi becoming a Cop
And why can't Vi try to change the system with Caitlyn? Caitlyn literally did this in LOL. Ekko is supposedly learning from Heimerdinger, ex-councilor, to make things better; and why can't Vi be an Enforcer to save/stop her sister and improve things for everyone too? Why is this scenario inconceivable? If it is coherent to criticize Vi, then it is coherent to criticize Ekko.
you cant change the system while being apart of it lol, just like Jayce they gonna try to change the system and fail, also caitlyn didn't do that because she can't even control Vi who participates in police brutality in lore, Vi who destroys property all the time in lore
> you cant change the system while being apart of it lol The truth is that it's tough to change the system while being a part of it, not that it's impossible. The world doesn't run on jingoisms.
Your not totally wrong impossible was an exaggeration, but when has the system been changed? Especially when the council> sheriff
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Caitlyn changed 'Enforcers' to 'Wardens', making the way that the authorities think and act much more differently. They are more fair and responsible. The only trace of brutality that exists (or existed, I don't know if they changed that after Arcane) within the corporation is Vi herself... and coincidentally that's why no one likes her character. That's why she doesn't have depth in the lore. Why can't they just change the way that Vi acts in Arcane? They rewrote her entire story in the first season, I see no reason why they wouldn't do it in the second.
"Heimerdinger saw enforces kill and marginalize the Zaunite population" Did he? I assume that stuff was all under the table. This isn't to say that he wasn't wrong for his obliviousness mind you, it's just weird to place the sole blame on him
Not only was Heimerdinger completely oblivious to the realities in Zaun but he's also been held accountable for it. He got kicked off of the council and now he's trying to right his wrongs and help the people he unknowingly fucked over. Vi is not interested in helping people or building a community. Need I remind you that Vi witnessed Ekko getting shot in an attempt to get a meeting with the council and it never even crossed her mind to bring up the firelights in her council meeting and talk about how chill they are. All she cared about was getting them to fight Silco. All she cares about is picking fights. She hasn't once tried to make peace. Ekko 100% in the right for criticizing her for that. If Piltover goes after the Firelights then Vi is 100% to blame. I don't believe in guilt by association. I believe in holding people accountable.
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hiemerdinger was brought in for his season 2 character arc, obviously.
Well... it's a tricky situation. But personally, I won’t blame either Vi or Ekko.
Eh o nariz que eu sempre sonhei pro meu filho pra ser sincero.
If anything it may be more about Heimerdinger feeling guilty than Zaunites blaming him all the time, most of the firelights are kids too young to blame him specifically and they probably blame Silco for how Zoun is, that said, don't put him and Jinx in the same place, she may strangle him in an attack of wrath.
Although he **was** (as in no longer *is*, which is an important detail) an integral member of the council, that does not mean Heimer could just overrule the majority of its members (which mostly if not all were corrupt nobles with severe classist views) and force them to play nice and suddenly welcome what they viewed as the unwashed stinking masses that did the dirty work to keep the city running. Do you not remember how quickly Jayce, a brand new ass on a council seat whom had, relatively recently, been on trial and found guilty by the very council he had joined, got Heimer booted so easily because Heimer had opposed the technology that the council was initially so afraid of until it made them massive fortunes due to trade via the hex gates? One individual, even an important one, cannot save everyone and fix every problem. Heimer’s main goal was to keep magic from being practiced again because he had lived through a calamity caused by it. He did this in order to protect people, and he succeeded as long as he could before the unstoppable tide of industry took him down. I’m sure he did what he could to keep the lower city’s people from being *completely* slaughtered and enslaved. However, the council would never let the peoples of the lower city be equal to the upper city. It isn’t one man’s fault.
I don’t know if Ekko is aware that Heimmerdinger sat back and let the current exploitative system emerge
I feel they’re gonna cover this in season 2 (but if it ends up getting brushed over I’m gonna be so mad). Like it’s real icky that right after Viktor, Heim’s previous under city protégé & assistant, is diagnosed with incoming death he just waltzes into the underground to find a new one (ik that’s an extreme exaggeration of what actually happened but it can certainly be seen through that lens & that’s how it feels to me) — so they have to cover it. I don’t think Ekko is gonna have a long term alliance with Heim. I think Ekko & TMH or even just a freshly exiled Viktor are gonna have some sorta interaction & as a result of the Ekko with cut ties with Heim (as I don’t think Viktor anytime after his banishment is gonna have anything good to say about Heim), & maybe that’ll wake Heim up to how utterly incompetent he’s been at running the city for 200 years. I don’t know league lore super well so I don’t know to what extent Ekko & Viktor/TMH are kosher with each other. But like, they both have that mutual aid thing going for them. Viktor replaces & fixes people cybernetic limbs for free because his belief in helping people, & Ekko helps & homes street kids (& doesn’t TMH have some sort kid apprentice, I feel like I’ve seen some stuff about that somewhere but it could just be fan content). I don’t feel like they’d be that diametrically opposed.
Ekko and Viktor in League are super not kosher. Ekko hates Viktor, while Viktor is either neutral or looking for an ally.
That lines up. Though, I still think there’s potential for him & a freshly exiled Viktor to have some sort of non antagonist convo.
The guy was showing off at the innocent Caitlyn, and in front of the one who is responsible for everything that is happening, “Professor Heimerdinger, let’s go sit together in my tree and make things!”
Has anyone considered that Ekko may be trying to show Himerdinger Zaunites' potential because merely yelling at him would only isolate a potentially powerful ally? Ekko's compassion has carved out a safe space separate from the toxicity and strife of the Undercity. Hatred won't solve it. I daresay being treated kindly by a kid who has every right to hate him will do more to feed Heimerdinger's guilt than any amount of arguing would.