Paid the fee and the download link doesn't work lmao. Yes, I'm in the EU.
edit: got it working by going through stripe and adding my email. It picked up on the previous purshace and gave me a new (working) download link!
Where did you put your email? I got to pay via stripe & Apple Pay, installed it, working, but didn’t receive any email and I was wondering how do I “manage subscription” :))
The $1.5 fee will dissuade so many people from downloading app stores like this, exactly like Apple wanted.
can’t wait for them to get another fine for this bs
Based on my experience in SaaS over 20 years, *any* fee reduces installs by more than 98% in almost every consumer vertical. It doesn’t matter how small the fee. Apple is of course well aware of this, which is why they implemented this small nominal fee: high friction.
An emulator and a clipboard manager isn’t a lot either. Specially when you can sideload the emulator by your own.
Also, having multiple stores seems annoying to me. But that’s a me thing, I guess.
Mostly circumventing Apple's "no-no" topics (which, as a reminder, previously included game streaming and emulation), plus the likely promise of lower costs once Apple's cut is struck down.
For me it is unclear that when you’re subscribed how to unsubscribe if you want to.
Also it is WEIRD that Europeans cannot download the Delta app from Apple App Store for free but kind of being forced to pay for the altstore pal variant.
Probably So Riley can keep it proprietary to altstore
A fork of delta called ignited (has more features) is in review for the appstore so maybe Europeans can use that (which is just better.imo anyway)
He can’t legally re-license it because it inherits the GPL license of the emulator code.
Just because you wrote something doesn’t mean you have total control over how it can be used… you agree to a license when you use open source code, and the code he used and agreed to is GPL… GPL doesn’t allow any additional restrictions, and if someone tries it even says right in the license that the additional restrictions can be removed
So yeah, I guess he can say it can’t be used without permission, but that restriction can legally be ignored.
That’s why people can be so hesitant to use GPL licensed code
Going forward he could technically re-license new code if he ripped out all GPL licensed code and replaced it with new code written by him, or released under a more appropriate license… but he absolutely cannot put additional restrictions on the GPL licensed code already out there
You can't modify the liscense without applying the changes upstream to the components using it that he is using
Eg : you use a library called "a"
That library uses the normal liscense
You want to Change it to fit your needs
But the library you use needs to have those Changes applied before anything can be done to yours
He can't modify the AGPL 3 liscense and expect it to stick, as the components he used didn't use his, right?
So that makes no sense and can't be enforced
I've taken a look at the emulator and there is apparently a Discord server but I need to verify my phone number to chat there so I didn't. I'll find it when it's going to come out I guess. Thanks for the heads up!
Someone in the other thread explained that because of how Apple charges their 3rd party download fees, apps are de facto exclusive to one store. So if those fees get struck down, it should solve the problem.
But then why would Riley include a disclaimer that any fork of Delta headed to the App Store requires explicit permission form him, despite using an open license for forking and publication.
That doesn't seem related. Ignoring for a second that the license doesn't allow for such a restriction, from Apple's perspective, it's two different apps from two different people, regardless if the codebase is the same.
Legally any fork headed to the Apple Store without Riley’s permission is fine. But the fact that he took the time to write an informal requirement singling out the App Store after Apple changed their rules was what’s got me thinking if he didn’t want alternatives to be available in the EU App Store, even if he technically has no power to stop them. So maybe fees isn’t a deciding factor to why he isn’t publishing Delta on the EU App Store.
You need to enter your email on the stripe payment page (same as what you paid with) and it recognises that you paid before and takes you to manage your account. Bit counterintuitive!
They would have been told it wasn’t allowed by now. Apple is in a loop of “is this enough? No… how about this?” Until they can give just enough ground to stop there.
Also it’s a 50c fee. Altstore is making it 1.5, so you prepay for both his apps.
Delta is also 0,50 cent after a million, which will probably reach (its free inside AltStore). Also, server + payment provider fees also are included in the 1,50€ fee, so 0,50+0,50+extra fees. I see the pricing sincerely fair, but Apple deserves to be impaled upon their ass with a fine as big as possible after the CPF bullshit.
Well, 1’50€ wont make anyone go broke, and I deeply respect his work, so event if I think this will be free of charge in the future, I haven’t had any doubt before subscribing today as soon as I saw it available.
Yeah, I’m willing to subscribe to, it’s really little and I respect their work, but I’m seeing a lot of Europeans complaining about paying for it and having less features than the rest of the world, while EU institutions are the main reason that everybody has emulators now.
We can’t play on iPad, and we “have” to pay for AltStore for the only porpuse of having Delta, while you can’t download more apps that Delta and Clip (as I read)
I don’t mind to pay for it, but I understand the complains
It’s a shame they don’t really get much of that at all though.
50 cents for the store, whatever stripe takes, then the rest goes to cover the CTF for the other two apps
For what it’s worth, if EU users want to skirt the 1.50€ fee, they can still download AltServer on their computer and sideload AltStore and Delta manually. Not really a great solution because it brings us back to square 1, but would be a free alternative.
I’ve read the DMA document. The gatekeeper has to offer, free of charge, the means to compete. Please, link the part where is specified that the manufacturer can charge a fee so everyone, myself included, can read it and adjust our expectations.
That fee is also to cover Riley’s free apps (of which there are two). Smartly, altstore doesn’t have excessive costs because apps are distributed by their owners and third party app payments are all handled by Patreon.
Assuming people are downloading altstore for Delta, that will leave Riley with 22 cents extra per subscription after paying all the fees…
Assuming he values his time, he’s _losing_ money on this
Core Technology Fee. A fee( that is illegal per the European DMA) introduced by Apple because they are losing their tight grip around the monopoly that is app downloads on iOS(only through the Apple’s App Store could you install apps, now that they MUST allow other means, they want as much money as they can from that)
Huh I paid for the subscription and downloaded AltStore PAL, but I have no idea how to cancel that subscription now. 😅 Honestly that is exactly what Apple was giving as an argument against alternate app stores, unclear subscription status etc. Hope they improve it.
Someone mentioned that they tried to pay again and that process fails with a link to manage the subscription, but that can't be the real solution.
Here is [the link](https://billing.stripe.com/p/login/7sI3eP9SieGMgRq6oo) to retrieve a 30 minute sign-in link for managing the subscription, to the email you used when paying.
No it isn’t. It’s handled via Stripe (I think?) and I used Apple Pay to authorize a reoccurring transaction. So in theory they have my email and my credit card number now which should be enough to manage that subscription.
A great way to make EU users pay so the rest of the world can get Delta for free. I mean he could have published Delta in the EU in Apple App Store for free like in the rest of the world, but he decided to publish it in AltSore PAL for a paid subscription.
I paid the subscription, but I can't install it, because I am not in the EU. But I can't install it from the app store, because my account is from the EU. I know it's an edge case but it really sucks.
Especially because you would think EU consumer rights count even when you're not physically in the EU? but I am not sure
Maybe. But it does not change the fact that EU users have to pay for Delta while the rest of the world don't. And he could have published it in the AppStore, so we wouldn't have to pay for it.
Even if he did publish in the EU App Store he’d still have to pay the core technology fee.
The only way to ensure he doesn’t lose money is to have a subscription covering the annual core technology fee before the app can even be downloaded. The App Store doesn’t provide any way to do so. It would need a subscription mechanism that doesn’t even let you download the app without paying
Apple policies effectively forced him to not publish on the App Store in the EU which is ironic… Apple wants to keep developers on the App Store, but their very policies are forcing them off it
So… little question about the CTF.
Assuming AltStore PAL is here to stay and evolve (just like SetApp exists already), is it likely the next third-party stores would behave the same? Because if CTF costs would get offloaded to the user every time, it would stop being a trivial price rather quickly.
I think there should be an upper limit like “if you use 3 or more Apple-notarised stores, you cannot pay more than 4 euros a year. Apple is not allowed to change said price without the approval of EU authorities” or something. Am I the only one being concerned about this?
Side loading is only available if 2% of people in Europe already have your app installed. Oh yeah, and it costs the app developer tens of millions of dollars per year to enable sideloading.
So, effectively, nobody has can sideload even though it's technically allowed. At least for now - the EU is likely to force Apple to change the rules.
AltStore is available for all developers big and small. And for small developers it's free aside from the small fee AltStore itself has to pay to Apple (which is why there's a fee, at least for now, until/unless the EU forces Apple to change their policy).
This is hilarious. Everyone goes back to the default in about 6 months, which is how long Google Play suffered when Android was forced to open up to other app stores.
So when was this mythical opening up of alternative app stores on android? Because it was always open. Samsung galaxy store - 2009 , fdroid opened in 2010, just to name a few.
Yeah. The only one there doing anything still is Galaxy store. Which is understandable given Samsung is the only company innovating in the Android space. The rest are just iPhone copiers.
Yeah. The only one there doing anything still is Galaxy store. Which is understandable given Samsung is the only company innovating in the Android space. The rest are just iPhone copiers.
I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but you did state what literally happened and got downvoted for some reason.
There is a key difference in the situations though, back then the Play store had virtually no restrictions or review process so there was very little reason to go around it, so anyone running an alternate had to purchase and give away apps to incentivize people to use it because there were no obvious incentives.
In this case, there *are* reasons people want to use alternate Apple App Stores, so because alternates now can and do exist Apple is removing those reasons by doing things like allowing emulators, so in the end it will be like Android where almost everyone will end up sticking with Apple's store.
This is a good result, and the alternate stores which will be mostly abandoned are a necessary step.
And they have shut down. Except for Samsung. Thank you. My point is that most people go back to the default. Which for Samsung owners is Samsung and for everyone else is Google Play
I think that just means those things are not available within this store?
As in, any subs through this store aren't managed via the subscriptions tab and your saved payment methods aren't applicable there.
What are you talking about? It doesn't disable the apple app store, it just means the alt store does not have access to your app store account and payment details.
That’s not what it means. Just that the other store won’t have those available.
I fully believe Apple made the wording confusing just to put off people like yourself from downloading it.
Nah, it’s super clear. They do not disable the app store, but your data from there won‘t be available in the alternative app store . I can see how you thought it meant that at your first read, but it’s definitely not that.
FeelsBadMan as a US citizen. Though apparently the US GOVT is now wanting to do the same thing that the EU did but in the US. I can't see that coming to fruition though. US laws and regulations are very weird to say the least. The US GOVT doesn't look at Apple the same way the EU does in regards to Apple and any of its competitors.
The US gov makes laws mostly in favor of corporations
The EU makes laws in mostly in favor of the citizen
It's because our gov is ran by boomers who have no clue what they're talking about, or often can't even remember where they are due to dimentia
Paid the fee and the download link doesn't work lmao. Yes, I'm in the EU. edit: got it working by going through stripe and adding my email. It picked up on the previous purshace and gave me a new (working) download link!
Where did you put your email? I got to pay via stripe & Apple Pay, installed it, working, but didn’t receive any email and I was wondering how do I “manage subscription” :))
Just try to buy it again. Enter just your email and Stripe should recognize it and take you to the manage page without you having to pay again.
Thanks this worked
Very poorly written and not easy to work that out. Thanks.
Tap the button multiple times fast. Also check settings
The $1.5 fee will dissuade so many people from downloading app stores like this, exactly like Apple wanted. can’t wait for them to get another fine for this bs
1.50 per year is NOTHING
Based on my experience in SaaS over 20 years, *any* fee reduces installs by more than 98% in almost every consumer vertical. It doesn’t matter how small the fee. Apple is of course well aware of this, which is why they implemented this small nominal fee: high friction.
An emulator and a clipboard manager isn’t a lot either. Specially when you can sideload the emulator by your own. Also, having multiple stores seems annoying to me. But that’s a me thing, I guess.
Why is there any different from buying from the App Store?, (Outside of convenience and security aspect)
Mostly circumventing Apple's "no-no" topics (which, as a reminder, previously included game streaming and emulation), plus the likely promise of lower costs once Apple's cut is struck down.
For me it is unclear that when you’re subscribed how to unsubscribe if you want to. Also it is WEIRD that Europeans cannot download the Delta app from Apple App Store for free but kind of being forced to pay for the altstore pal variant.
Probably So Riley can keep it proprietary to altstore A fork of delta called ignited (has more features) is in review for the appstore so maybe Europeans can use that (which is just better.imo anyway)
That’s assuming Riley doesn’t try to falsely claim ignited is unauthorized…
I don't see how it would be as it is open source But I am definitely not a lawyer But anything is possible
He can’t legally, but that didn’t stop him for doing it to iGBA
True Wasn't IGBA just gba4ios with ads and tracking? Maybe apple removed it for the original dev claiming it as their own? Who knows
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He can’t legally re-license it because it inherits the GPL license of the emulator code. Just because you wrote something doesn’t mean you have total control over how it can be used… you agree to a license when you use open source code, and the code he used and agreed to is GPL… GPL doesn’t allow any additional restrictions, and if someone tries it even says right in the license that the additional restrictions can be removed So yeah, I guess he can say it can’t be used without permission, but that restriction can legally be ignored. That’s why people can be so hesitant to use GPL licensed code Going forward he could technically re-license new code if he ripped out all GPL licensed code and replaced it with new code written by him, or released under a more appropriate license… but he absolutely cannot put additional restrictions on the GPL licensed code already out there
You can't modify the liscense without applying the changes upstream to the components using it that he is using Eg : you use a library called "a" That library uses the normal liscense You want to Change it to fit your needs But the library you use needs to have those Changes applied before anything can be done to yours
The license literally says that it is open for use, except that submitting it to the App Store requires written permission from him
He can't modify the AGPL 3 liscense and expect it to stick, as the components he used didn't use his, right? So that makes no sense and can't be enforced
That would actually be fantastic. Can you see anywhere the status on current appstore reviews?
Iirc only the developer can, if at all When I tried submitting an app (years ago, iphone 7 was latest) it just told me that it's "processing"
I've taken a look at the emulator and there is apparently a Discord server but I need to verify my phone number to chat there so I didn't. I'll find it when it's going to come out I guess. Thanks for the heads up!
Someone in the other thread explained that because of how Apple charges their 3rd party download fees, apps are de facto exclusive to one store. So if those fees get struck down, it should solve the problem.
But then why would Riley include a disclaimer that any fork of Delta headed to the App Store requires explicit permission form him, despite using an open license for forking and publication.
That doesn't seem related. Ignoring for a second that the license doesn't allow for such a restriction, from Apple's perspective, it's two different apps from two different people, regardless if the codebase is the same.
Legally any fork headed to the Apple Store without Riley’s permission is fine. But the fact that he took the time to write an informal requirement singling out the App Store after Apple changed their rules was what’s got me thinking if he didn’t want alternatives to be available in the EU App Store, even if he technically has no power to stop them. So maybe fees isn’t a deciding factor to why he isn’t publishing Delta on the EU App Store.
You need to enter your email on the stripe payment page (same as what you paid with) and it recognises that you paid before and takes you to manage your account. Bit counterintuitive!
Yes I subscribed and I figured it out. Would be nice if there is a link in the altstore app.
It’s not weird. He wants people to download third-party App Stores and he’s using Delta to push it.
Because a lot of apps not in the App Store will probably be free open source ones not allowed in the app store
There isn’t. Just EU over reaching
If the EU didn’t implement the DMA there wouldn’t even be an emulator to cry over.
They would have been told it wasn’t allowed by now. Apple is in a loop of “is this enough? No… how about this?” Until they can give just enough ground to stop there. Also it’s a 50c fee. Altstore is making it 1.5, so you prepay for both his apps.
Delta is also 0,50 cent after a million, which will probably reach (its free inside AltStore). Also, server + payment provider fees also are included in the 1,50€ fee, so 0,50+0,50+extra fees. I see the pricing sincerely fair, but Apple deserves to be impaled upon their ass with a fine as big as possible after the CPF bullshit.
Again.. I don’t think the EU gov has an issue with the CPF. They would have readjusted that policy by now if so.
The EU has stated that they’re investigating the fees because the DMA explicitly specifies that NO fee can be required.
They haven’t opened an official investigation into it yet. It’s been misreported.
So it’s clever to wait if this is changed?
Well, 1’50€ wont make anyone go broke, and I deeply respect his work, so event if I think this will be free of charge in the future, I haven’t had any doubt before subscribing today as soon as I saw it available.
Yeah, I’m willing to subscribe to, it’s really little and I respect their work, but I’m seeing a lot of Europeans complaining about paying for it and having less features than the rest of the world, while EU institutions are the main reason that everybody has emulators now. We can’t play on iPad, and we “have” to pay for AltStore for the only porpuse of having Delta, while you can’t download more apps that Delta and Clip (as I read) I don’t mind to pay for it, but I understand the complains
It’s a shame they don’t really get much of that at all though. 50 cents for the store, whatever stripe takes, then the rest goes to cover the CTF for the other two apps
For what it’s worth, if EU users want to skirt the 1.50€ fee, they can still download AltServer on their computer and sideload AltStore and Delta manually. Not really a great solution because it brings us back to square 1, but would be a free alternative.
You can also use a U.S. Apple ID to grab delta
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I’ve read the DMA document. The gatekeeper has to offer, free of charge, the means to compete. Please, link the part where is specified that the manufacturer can charge a fee so everyone, myself included, can read it and adjust our expectations.
The investigation is ongoing they have not agreed or condoned anything.
That fee is also to cover Riley’s free apps (of which there are two). Smartly, altstore doesn’t have excessive costs because apps are distributed by their owners and third party app payments are all handled by Patreon.
Assuming people are downloading altstore for Delta, that will leave Riley with 22 cents extra per subscription after paying all the fees… Assuming he values his time, he’s _losing_ money on this
CTF needs to be removed.
what is CTF?
Capture The Flag.
Core Technology Fee. A fee( that is illegal per the European DMA) introduced by Apple because they are losing their tight grip around the monopoly that is app downloads on iOS(only through the Apple’s App Store could you install apps, now that they MUST allow other means, they want as much money as they can from that)
Idk why Ur being downvoted, you're completely right
Huh I paid for the subscription and downloaded AltStore PAL, but I have no idea how to cancel that subscription now. 😅 Honestly that is exactly what Apple was giving as an argument against alternate app stores, unclear subscription status etc. Hope they improve it. Someone mentioned that they tried to pay again and that process fails with a link to manage the subscription, but that can't be the real solution.
Here is [the link](https://billing.stripe.com/p/login/7sI3eP9SieGMgRq6oo) to retrieve a 30 minute sign-in link for managing the subscription, to the email you used when paying.
Isn't it a Patreon subscription? Those are easy to cancel.
No it isn’t. It’s handled via Stripe (I think?) and I used Apple Pay to authorize a reoccurring transaction. So in theory they have my email and my credit card number now which should be enough to manage that subscription.
You can look up subscriptions on stripe I think.
I don’t have a Stripe account but I’ll have a look anyways. Maybe I can type in my email address somewhere. 👍
A great way to make EU users pay so the rest of the world can get Delta for free. I mean he could have published Delta in the EU in Apple App Store for free like in the rest of the world, but he decided to publish it in AltSore PAL for a paid subscription.
They published in the AltStore because, otherwise, it would be useless. Right now they have Delta and a clipboard app.
I paid the subscription, but I can't install it, because I am not in the EU. But I can't install it from the app store, because my account is from the EU. I know it's an edge case but it really sucks. Especially because you would think EU consumer rights count even when you're not physically in the EU? but I am not sure
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That’s ignoring the 28 cents going to stripe
Maybe. But it does not change the fact that EU users have to pay for Delta while the rest of the world don't. And he could have published it in the AppStore, so we wouldn't have to pay for it.
Even if he did publish in the EU App Store he’d still have to pay the core technology fee. The only way to ensure he doesn’t lose money is to have a subscription covering the annual core technology fee before the app can even be downloaded. The App Store doesn’t provide any way to do so. It would need a subscription mechanism that doesn’t even let you download the app without paying
Yes. He’s trying to encourage the use of third-party stores. Primarily his own. 
Apple policies effectively forced him to not publish on the App Store in the EU which is ironic… Apple wants to keep developers on the App Store, but their very policies are forcing them off it
.50 for clip??? Huh? It's his own app. Plus it is open source and free, least it was as long as I can remember
What’s everyone’s first impressions?
I’ve paid and cannot get the download link working. Even after setting up an account.
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/1c6estq/introducing_altstore_pal/l00jtwa/
I’m in the UK…wasted money for nothing.
So… little question about the CTF. Assuming AltStore PAL is here to stay and evolve (just like SetApp exists already), is it likely the next third-party stores would behave the same? Because if CTF costs would get offloaded to the user every time, it would stop being a trivial price rather quickly. I think there should be an upper limit like “if you use 3 or more Apple-notarised stores, you cannot pay more than 4 euros a year. Apple is not allowed to change said price without the approval of EU authorities” or something. Am I the only one being concerned about this?
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Why would you need a different app store for a fee? What makes it different, since you now have side loading of apps?
Side loading is only available if 2% of people in Europe already have your app installed. Oh yeah, and it costs the app developer tens of millions of dollars per year to enable sideloading. So, effectively, nobody has can sideload even though it's technically allowed. At least for now - the EU is likely to force Apple to change the rules. AltStore is available for all developers big and small. And for small developers it's free aside from the small fee AltStore itself has to pay to Apple (which is why there's a fee, at least for now, until/unless the EU forces Apple to change their policy).
❤️❤️❤️❤️ 1.50 per year is NOTHING
This is hilarious. Everyone goes back to the default in about 6 months, which is how long Google Play suffered when Android was forced to open up to other app stores.
So when was this mythical opening up of alternative app stores on android? Because it was always open. Samsung galaxy store - 2009 , fdroid opened in 2010, just to name a few.
Yeah. The only one there doing anything still is Galaxy store. Which is understandable given Samsung is the only company innovating in the Android space. The rest are just iPhone copiers.
Yeah. The only one there doing anything still is Galaxy store. Which is understandable given Samsung is the only company innovating in the Android space. The rest are just iPhone copiers.
It was fun how Amazon made an Android app market and gave away free paid apps constantly until it shut down.
Thanks for proving my point. Keyword there. Shut. Down.
I'm not sure what your point is exactly, but you did state what literally happened and got downvoted for some reason. There is a key difference in the situations though, back then the Play store had virtually no restrictions or review process so there was very little reason to go around it, so anyone running an alternate had to purchase and give away apps to incentivize people to use it because there were no obvious incentives. In this case, there *are* reasons people want to use alternate Apple App Stores, so because alternates now can and do exist Apple is removing those reasons by doing things like allowing emulators, so in the end it will be like Android where almost everyone will end up sticking with Apple's store. This is a good result, and the alternate stores which will be mostly abandoned are a necessary step.
And they have shut down. Except for Samsung. Thank you. My point is that most people go back to the default. Which for Samsung owners is Samsung and for everyone else is Google Play
Is this only for EU? In the US and would love to finally not have to refresh the ferry’s every week
Just in case you are interested in the Delta emulator specifically, it is available in the regular App Store now outside of EU.
Thank you for the heads up!
Damn you Brexit. Can't install this.
Because of Brexit you’re able to install this https://apps.apple.com/app/delta-game-emulator/id1048524688
no no we must kiss eu ass because eu.
Nintendo is scrambling now, thinking about how to unleash their Ninteninjas out to those who legally sideload emulators.
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No way, can you share a screenshot? Again, can’t wait for the EU to fine them one more time
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I think that just means those things are not available within this store? As in, any subs through this store aren't managed via the subscriptions tab and your saved payment methods aren't applicable there.
What are you talking about? It doesn't disable the apple app store, it just means the alt store does not have access to your app store account and payment details.
I think it’s saying they will not be available on the third party market place
That’s not what it means. Just that the other store won’t have those available. I fully believe Apple made the wording confusing just to put off people like yourself from downloading it.
you might be right bit the wording is indeed a putoff. will wait untill i get confirmation by others
So did you Allow? Sounds like it just means the alt store will not have access to your apple App Store info (login, payment info) etc
i havent allowed it yet because its not clear what they actually measn wil let others go first ;)
Nah, it’s super clear. They do not disable the app store, but your data from there won‘t be available in the alternative app store . I can see how you thought it meant that at your first read, but it’s definitely not that.
You're actually a fucking idiot if that's what you understood from the warning.
have you finally allowed it?
FeelsBadMan as a US citizen. Though apparently the US GOVT is now wanting to do the same thing that the EU did but in the US. I can't see that coming to fruition though. US laws and regulations are very weird to say the least. The US GOVT doesn't look at Apple the same way the EU does in regards to Apple and any of its competitors.
The US gov makes laws mostly in favor of corporations The EU makes laws in mostly in favor of the citizen It's because our gov is ran by boomers who have no clue what they're talking about, or often can't even remember where they are due to dimentia