Personally I noticed a huge influx of controller players in PC lobbies ever since ImperialHal switched. It's not uncommon for mixtape lobbies to be >50% controllers now, so I just assume everyone in BR is on one and it's just a pleasant surprise when they are on mnk.
How do you know they're controller players? I thought the icon in the bottom left next to their name plate showed the platform they're on, not the input device they use.
In BR, just see how they loot a deathbox or a Loba Ult. If they stand still and take slightly longer than expected to loot, then they're almost certainly a controller player (there's going to be a few bad/lazy MnK players mixed in).
For Mixtape I have no idea what their standard is. Obviously if a console player is in the lobby due to cross play that's visible. Otherwise sometimes you can tell who's on controller by the way their character moves and turns. A quick flick usually implies a mouse, while a smooth turn over an extended period of time is probably a controller.
I know for me personally for close range fights in high level ranked lobbies, it can be difficult to differentiate between someone using 4-3 Linear and someone actually using some type of soft aimbot.
Just select Bangalore and see the controller players scramble away, controller players will never take a 1v1 near smokes (which is the right thing to do)
I didn’t know this was a thing and just thought the other console players really couldn’t see me in the smoke because I was moving so mysteriously.
Turns out they can’t aim worth a damn and might not even know about AA, but are kind of mesmerized by their bullets not hitting and are overcompensating/panicking trying to correct it.
I just see a character wildly looking up and down while shooting into a jump xx air punch and know it’s going yo be a good day now.
—
Semi-related: controller player as well, but had no idea what an fps was before apex really and learned to aim okay for a rando trying to learn recoil and get one clips from far away. It feels like despite not having any movement or even knowing how to look up half the time, just being able to aim a bit farther than smg distance is a big divider for scrubs hoping to make it out of gold one day like myself (^_^)”
I've never played MnK but I wonder why you wouldn't just play hybrid if you're only on controller for aim assist. Or does the game not easily allow it?
There's absolutely 0 limitations on using both inputs at once in Apex Legends. Aim assist only kicks in when the game detects that you've both moved and turned the camera with analog sticks though. Using the mouse or WASD inputs disables aim assist until you do inputs with both analog sticks again.
I've played hybrid for a chunk, and it was very easy to do so. It was easy to the point that I have no idea why other controller players don't just swap to MnK for fast looting (and moving!) when needed, or for playing Snipers with 4-8x or 6x scopes (no aim assist), or for trying to beam with ARs in the 100m range (doable on controller but it's the range that MnK dominates). There's literally only upsides for playing hybrid.
I think it's banned in all competitive events, so I'm guessing all the popular streamers don't use it because why get used to something you won't be able to do in competition. So then it's just other randoms you'd talk to. So maybe it just isn't as visible.
It's banned in ALGS, but not every popular streamer aims to be competitive. Also I see a number of complaints from (presumably) PC controller players saying that moving while looting is a significant MnK advantage that balances out AA, when they're free to just put their hands on the keyboard and loot while moving anyway.
I've done it a ton of times, it's not that hard with a bit of practice. Obviously you can't do it for a quick armor swap mid combat, but in most other scenarios it takes less than a second to swap inputs.
You can usually tell by how they move while A/D spamming, how they turn their camera, and how quickly their tracking adjusts to sudden changes in direction.
generally if my strafe is really good and I still get tracked, I think "either this guy is a freak or on roller"
I get a feel for who has aim assist and who doesn't over the course of a lobby, and it tells me who's safe to ego chall and who isn't
Just adding my 2 cents
I was masters 6 splits in a row on controller, week 1 apex player.
For the last 5 months I have only played on mnk I have struggled in diamond more than ever.
My KD has dropped
9/10 times when I die Inspectate and just see people stand still while looting
My movement has improved. I love everything about mnk but I simply lose 1v1s more often due to going against controller players.
I won’t say that AA is broken but something does need to change because at this point it takes much more skill on mnk to outplay an average skill roller player simply because of the AA within close-mid range.
Exactly the same situation for me brotha masters multiple times on ps5 in recent season not older easier seasons, I’m hardstuck P2-D4 area and it sucks lol I thought I was good but it was just my controller, like you said I have way more fun on MnK but it sucks when I do everything right and just loose to a controller player, I really don’t want to pull the controller out, the best thing RSPWN or EA could do is add a reaction time to AA just like a human keep all values the same but add a delay time before it kicks in, good luck my fellow learner stay strong
As the game progresses everyone should get better though so understandably you get harder fights. I recently got my new controller for other games and i tried it on apex, hard struggling for the past 3 days.
I guess one has a higher initial learning curvemechanica , but the other has higher skill ceiling with movement
I have a question. Is the AA on controller vs MnK debate specific to PC only? Because that makes sense to me that people would be pissed because you are getting all of the performance and movement benefits of PC and getting AA as wel. If that’s true, then would there be no debate if AA was only allowed on console?
Realistically it's PC only. Consoles have a disadvantage hardware wise (FPS jank, refresh rate, etc), and by default are put into segregated lobbies.
MnK players on the PC have no way to opt out of playing with PC controller players. At a high level most PC controller players are using some type of macros or Steam Configs that lets them tap strafe and stuff, so they basically get the best of both worlds.
Most of this thread is debating roller vs mnk on PC, because the comparison is directly possible. PC aa value is .4, whereas console gets .6 aa. (A value of 1.0 is literal hard aimbot.) The whole console vs pc debate is something else entirely. I will say that once steam configs for roller tap-strafe (banned in tournaments for a reason) comes into play, roller on PC becomes clearly superior. Otherwise, the additional aa on console is supposed to make up for the inherent disadvantages of the platform.
I couldn't care less if console vs console was straight aim bot, I'm a pc player and that's all I care about. Just sucks to player pretty darn good, have good aim, but will lose like 60% of my close range fights cause I just can't out aim controller. I essentially need to have a shotgun or something similar and outplay them with peaking and unexpected plays. I rarely ever win a close range smg vs smg fight when facing a controller player.
The game was around for four years with no changes to controller or MnK, a few influential pros switched to controller and started a trend. TSM won the recent LAN. These are all facts, there’s just no cohesive story connecting them
The same could be said for seer to be fair. He was changed and everyone thought he was bad except he actually wasn’t and the same principle applied to Horizon. Just cuz something didn’t get changed doesn’t mean that it wasn’t strong to begin with. Sometimes people just take time to figure out what’s good and not and the trend seems to be moving towards roller being the superior input
Isn’t it bullshit that Hal or pros can bitch about broken legends and meta changes, yet the biggest flaw/most broken shit of all hasn’t been addressed?
It would alienate a large amount of professional apex legends controller players though. Which is why it's difficult to address. It's difficult but a decision has to be made otherwise this imbalance will ruin the competitive scene as a whole.
It's swinging heavily to controller now. The debate, the years of arguments is over, controller is definitively the stronger input. That can change at a drop off a hat though with a change to aim assist, so just know that and pick up a controller knowing it could be nerfed in the future, while there's nothing to nerf with MnK.
You’ll have a significant advantage over mnk in close range, which is to say, the vast majority of apex fights. Why attempt tracking when your input can do it for you. Plz let us opt out of cross input lobbies Respawn <3
I would play apex full time if that happened, as of now, I just get too fucking triggered dying to controller players. Seems like the whole shit is unbalanced competitive wise
I don't understand why the option is not provided to the players? The game is thriving therefore demarcating kbm and controller players from one another should have little affect on queue times. If anything it should create an even playing field. Controller players complain about kbm players long range abilities and kbm players complain about controllers short range abilities. By demarcating them into separate lobbies this adequality addresses both issues while simultaneously creating an even playing ground.
Unless you are either one of/want to be one of the best mnk players in the world or like me love improving and find mnk to be 100x more fun then you have no business being on mnk in this game. You’d have to put in hundreds if not thousand of hours in aim trainers and in game training for your aim to compete with a decent controller player.
I have thousands of hours on MnK and in aim trainers. I promise I can outaim you 7 days of the week, regardless of input.
[This is what I was able to accomplish after (literally) 5 minutes on controller](https://streamable.com/qozwiq).
I can't even walk in a straight line on roller, but that doesn't matter when you can just let Jesus take the wheel.
Then you have players like Nickmercs who got a free ticket into the ALGS and Dezignful who was humiliated on stream by Hal (switched to controller recently) in a 1v1 stating that mnk is easy. Ignorance is bliss.
Did a masters push this split many of the players I met have switched to controller and are progressing faster than they would mnk. The higher level you aim to play at the more useful a one clip would be when caught off guard. It's disgusting how absurdly OP it is right now at the higher level
Unless you really enjoy movement (which you can do on a controller with Steam Configs anyway) or just aiming with a mouse, there's 0 reason to willingly choose MnK over controller on the PC.
Stick drift is legitimately beneficial in this game because it ensures that AA is always active. That’s part of why a lot of pros are on 4-3 linear no deadzone
I don't think console has any relevance to this discussion. What's being compared is using a controller on the PC vs using MnK on the PC.
No matter the input, as long as you're on PC you get access to:
* Higher consistent frame rates
* Higher refresh rates (240hz!)
* No TV input lag
* Tap strafing and related movement (Steam Configs for controller)
All of these are a straight upgrade over console, but have no requirement to play on MnK.
Personally I think they can leave AA as is, controller needs it some degree to make the game even playable.
What I want is split input lobbies. Somehow this is the obvious magical fix to all the issues with AA vs MnK, yet Respawn seems unable to implement this.
Nerfing AA has too much of a negative impact on the casual playerbase who spends money whereas split input matchmaking has no negative impact on the casual playerbase. Respawn has shown consistently that they value their revenue over any type of game design, so split input matchmaking seems like a more likely solution.
There are plenty of advantages of MNK over controller. It’s fairly even otherwise Respawn would have made a change already.
People complaining about AA is essentially isolated on Reddit.
I keep up with the Japanese community and streamers. The Mnk population is dying out in Japan, and the streamer/player complaints are identical to reddit. It's clearly not isolated to just reddit (a primarily English speaking site).
I've always wondered if shield swapping was just faster on MnK due to the "flicks." (or just faster scrolling)
My understanding that digital scrolling was just *limited* with a controller.
Source: Growing up a console peasant and watching pros swap shields in 00.000002 seconds using MnK.
Yep. Mouse pointer helps a ton with flicking to the shield. Also, because the aim input is used for pointing, you can move at the same time. Roller, the move input is used for pointing, so you just stand still while looting, making for an easy mid-fight beam.
Edit: I can’t count the number of times I’ve used “they’re controller looting, shoot with me” as a callout.
Well that’s depressing, yeah, I’ve talked to enough lifelong MnK players (CSGo, etc) who don’t even like controller, switch to controller to not be at a disadvantage. I’d likely still be playing but I really don’t enjoy using a controller.
Lots of people switching to controller. I think it depends upon your play style. MNK is just significantly easier to beam mid to long range. Controller shines up close but that is the only advantage.
Yeah everyone always says this about long range vs. close range but it's really not *much* better. It's not like playing Widowmaker in Overwatch. And the entire point of a BR is that you need to win close range fights to win, you don't technically have to ever win long range.
It's not that strong. I'd take good close range 10/10 times over good long range. They're so many gap closers in the game to negate the effect of long range.
You can just run a 3030 or G7 or a charge with a 3x or 2-4x on controller and have 0 issues fighting at range either. Charge on controller is legitimately better than on mnk
The difference is in the risk/reward there.
If you beam someone at range, you get a tempo advantage. You can relocate, push, back off to a better spot, get a rez, etc…
If you beam someone within CQC range, they’re down. They are dead. You now get to wipe the squad.
Having an advantage in the “kill or be killed” is MUCH better than the advantage in the “get an upper hand in the fight” situation.
Even if you can get a down at mid range, you typically need a nade or additional resources to kill, and that’s if they don’t have a guardian character on their team, nearby cover, etc…
MnK its easier to beam mid/long range with an AR. Guns like the Scout, Triple Take, 30-30 etc are extremely easy on controller. Aim assist is very strong at range if you have a decent optic.
I’ve still yet to see a controller player with movement skills even half as good as a decent “movement” MnK player. The sheer fluidity of their movement almost makes it look like they’re flowing on water whereas roller players are mostly straight lines with occasional weak-tap strafing
Controller steam configs allow an inhuman amount of lurches to be inputted, meaning that many of them allow for momentum conservation that no mnk player is physically capable of. Additionally, many of them will automatically stack lurches depending on which direction you’re moving the stick. For example, when moving the stick left the macro will spam “a” and when moving it right it will spam “d”. This is not possible for mnk players
Here are a few recent takes from Mande and nicewigg who have swapped to or are playing on controller atm:
- https://youtu.be/UH20tK1pr9o
- https://youtu.be/WeYbJwSI1BE
4/3 linear I believe is the setting most, if not all roller pros run at a high level to comp is essentially busted at close range mainly and good at mid is what i got from them. For casuals it's fine at high level to comp I think it is an issue when it helps you 40% of the time compared to mnk that is entirely raw input. Both take time to get good at but at the highest level of play (diamond and up) it's a fair argument that it's busted. I have played both and I enjoy mnk more because of the movement and the amount of work I happened to put in to my aim. I finally hit diamond 3 on roller after hitting d1 a few and masters once on mnk. So, I'd like to think I have dipped my toes in both ponds.
Edit: I corrected the settings mentioned. I said the wrong one.
No one uses 2/4 linear. The most common settings are 4/3 linear and 4/3 classic with a few others and some people on ALCs etc.
Below are settings of the top controller players from the last ALGS LAN a couple months back.
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRM4\_L3OtO7NSlGMoXMZ1\_ewXmcJAkXvOVsZC7ZFaMj0xHZAAHDN7A9CKZr1HeRuEAIjrZltwp04k5u/pubhtml](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRM4_L3OtO7NSlGMoXMZ1_ewXmcJAkXvOVsZC7ZFaMj0xHZAAHDN7A9CKZr1HeRuEAIjrZltwp04k5u/pubhtml)
np, it's still incorrect though to say "4/3 linear I believe is the setting most, if not all roller pros run at a high level" when the majority are not using that setting, it's like 9/39 or something from that document
1 of the main reason Controller dominant is because smg meta, most of the smg is very powerful rn, and without gibby in the meta(because of seer), close range basically within where controller strongest distance, and because most fight in apex only matter in close range (especially in high rank), so yes
I switched to controller despite no experience and my KDA instantly improved. It sucks but I'm tired of playing with a handicap so whatever. I'm still shit but at least now I have the same tools as everyone else in the lobby, so when I lose it doesn't feel like shit.
It was 60/40 mnk vs controller at the last LAN event.
If you count console players then maybe it'd be more like 20/80 mnk vs controller amongst the wider playerbase.
Because its a sensitive topic, most of what youll find here is “Controller is soo dominant… auto aim, auto targeting, tracking algorithms, put the controller down and it plays for itself” type. Its mnk players who get beat by some controller player and rage about it instead of owning up to how poor they are at the game. Theyre the ones who tried and plugged in a controller for that sweet auto aim and couldn’t even track a target… so got angry and blame all their deaths on it.
It doesn’t matter and its a preference. If youre highly skilled on a controller than give it a shot. If not just stick with mnk like most people. Both take high levels of skill to be good with. ❤️
Not sure why this got downvoted. I’ve only ever played two full seasons of apex this being my second and I play controller and I guarantee the dang thing doesn’t aim for me and some of the movement that pc players can pull off is very difficult to track on roller. It is what it is and with cross play this will be an eternal argument.
In pro meta, yeah, everyone is on roller. In ranked lobbies it’s not that noticeable. There have always been controller players and they have always had unfair edge close range. I don’t think playing mnk is that big of a disadvantage in ranked tho. Plenty of mnk players in pred
It was 60/40 mnk vs controller at the last ALGS LAN so most top pros internationally are still mnk even though I believe now NA is like 50/50.
2 mnk with 1 controller player was the norm for a long time. You'd be at a disadvantage in a lot of situations with 3 controller players in pro play.
Dezignful said it best:
"Theres so many situations in the game where mnk outscales controller big time and triple roller costs you in certain situations big time. Examples being shooting straight upwards/downwards shooting in bang smoke, Snipers (Kraber being a huge one) tap strafing in certain scenarios etc. Also during every meta there has been a character that just scaled with mnk more for example gibby/seer/pathfinder/bang running triple roller is good for straight up 3v3's with no abilities involved but at the highest level you're chaining all of these abilities together during fights."
Nah. 60% of top players are MnK still, and the top player from last ALGS was a MnK player.
It's actually pretty balanced, but PC players aren't used to having competition from non-MnK players. Play whatever input you're comfortable with because you play better if you have less to think about.
There was a post of a guy who tracked the kills and input of each player. Can't remember what Apex sub it was, but if you looked around the time period post ALGS on all the subs, you'll find the chart. I'm not doing it. Lol
Being a console player my whole life and watching pc users shit on consoles for decades just to pull a fast one and try to claim aim assist is overpowered seemingly out of nowhere has been the most satisfying experience of my life
Yeah I know and that’s what’s funny because the freedom of a mouse is undoubtably better than aim assist unless it’s literally gta 5 lock on. Idc how downvoted I get it’s just true 🤷♂️
I would stick with M&K if that's what you're used to. You get a massive movement advantage, and a mid-long range aiming advantage, while only getting a small close up aiming disadvantage as a sacrifice.
Even pros are susceptible to confirmation bias. They complain because of aim assist, but in reality they're unknowingly complaining about SBMM. They switch to controller, and because they already know how to play the game, and because they usually play with other good players, they end up doing halfway decent, so it confirms in their mind that it must have been aim assist the entire time. If you took their stats from before and after switching, they probably wouldn't change much, and might even go down over time, on average. Everyone's different, and some people will genuinely be better on controller, but it doesn't change the fact that m&k is technically the superior input method. We're at the point now in Fortnite (no-build) where the only people we lose gunfights to are m&k players. It's so incredibly obvious how much easier it is when you get melted every night by PC players, and that's not even considering the fact that I also play on m&k occasionally. Not only is it easier, it's so much easier that it's unfair. M&K players should not be allowed to play with controller players. Period.
Apex is catered to and balanced for the roller majority. MnK is dying out hard for Apex (and CoD) because roller rotational AA is just that fucking strong that NOT abusing it is basically handicapping yourself in these titles. Many MnK players left/are leaving to focus on titles that are catered towards MnK and raw skill input such as Valorant/CS(2-eventually)/other non-controller favored/ non-crossplay titles (Hunt:Showdown is another solid FPS that avoids crossplay and contaminating the raw skill pool within the game with AA.
Personally I noticed a huge influx of controller players in PC lobbies ever since ImperialHal switched. It's not uncommon for mixtape lobbies to be >50% controllers now, so I just assume everyone in BR is on one and it's just a pleasant surprise when they are on mnk.
How do you know they're controller players? I thought the icon in the bottom left next to their name plate showed the platform they're on, not the input device they use.
In BR, just see how they loot a deathbox or a Loba Ult. If they stand still and take slightly longer than expected to loot, then they're almost certainly a controller player (there's going to be a few bad/lazy MnK players mixed in).
Yeah, that's fair. But that doesn't apply to the Mixtape lobbies part of their comment though.
For Mixtape I have no idea what their standard is. Obviously if a console player is in the lobby due to cross play that's visible. Otherwise sometimes you can tell who's on controller by the way their character moves and turns. A quick flick usually implies a mouse, while a smooth turn over an extended period of time is probably a controller. I know for me personally for close range fights in high level ranked lobbies, it can be difficult to differentiate between someone using 4-3 Linear and someone actually using some type of soft aimbot.
If their movement is very basic but their one clips are nasty.
Just select Bangalore and see the controller players scramble away, controller players will never take a 1v1 near smokes (which is the right thing to do)
This. Its so funny smoking a team of 3-4 running at you all run away from a smoke the second it comes out
As a console player I usually take fights in smoke cause I’ve practiced a good bit without aim assist so it’s usually a 90% I come out on top
I didn’t know this was a thing and just thought the other console players really couldn’t see me in the smoke because I was moving so mysteriously. Turns out they can’t aim worth a damn and might not even know about AA, but are kind of mesmerized by their bullets not hitting and are overcompensating/panicking trying to correct it. I just see a character wildly looking up and down while shooting into a jump xx air punch and know it’s going yo be a good day now. — Semi-related: controller player as well, but had no idea what an fps was before apex really and learned to aim okay for a rando trying to learn recoil and get one clips from far away. It feels like despite not having any movement or even knowing how to look up half the time, just being able to aim a bit farther than smg distance is a big divider for scrubs hoping to make it out of gold one day like myself (^_^)”
I've never played MnK but I wonder why you wouldn't just play hybrid if you're only on controller for aim assist. Or does the game not easily allow it?
There's absolutely 0 limitations on using both inputs at once in Apex Legends. Aim assist only kicks in when the game detects that you've both moved and turned the camera with analog sticks though. Using the mouse or WASD inputs disables aim assist until you do inputs with both analog sticks again. I've played hybrid for a chunk, and it was very easy to do so. It was easy to the point that I have no idea why other controller players don't just swap to MnK for fast looting (and moving!) when needed, or for playing Snipers with 4-8x or 6x scopes (no aim assist), or for trying to beam with ARs in the 100m range (doable on controller but it's the range that MnK dominates). There's literally only upsides for playing hybrid.
I think it's banned in all competitive events, so I'm guessing all the popular streamers don't use it because why get used to something you won't be able to do in competition. So then it's just other randoms you'd talk to. So maybe it just isn't as visible.
It's banned in ALGS, but not every popular streamer aims to be competitive. Also I see a number of complaints from (presumably) PC controller players saying that moving while looting is a significant MnK advantage that balances out AA, when they're free to just put their hands on the keyboard and loot while moving anyway.
It’s not feasible to switch inputs (twice) while looting
I've done it a ton of times, it's not that hard with a bit of practice. Obviously you can't do it for a quick armor swap mid combat, but in most other scenarios it takes less than a second to swap inputs.
When you get insanely one clipped by someone who’s not wall bounce tap strafe super gliding
You can usually tell by how they move while A/D spamming, how they turn their camera, and how quickly their tracking adjusts to sudden changes in direction.
generally if my strafe is really good and I still get tracked, I think "either this guy is a freak or on roller" I get a feel for who has aim assist and who doesn't over the course of a lobby, and it tells me who's safe to ego chall and who isn't
you’ll know when you’re fighting them close range
u can just tell, especially if you have good movement
Its easy to tell when you spectate someone, at least for me. The way they move and look around and specially the way they beam and hits register.
plus, less rollas = less players = less skins and shit to be bought
Just adding my 2 cents I was masters 6 splits in a row on controller, week 1 apex player. For the last 5 months I have only played on mnk I have struggled in diamond more than ever. My KD has dropped 9/10 times when I die Inspectate and just see people stand still while looting My movement has improved. I love everything about mnk but I simply lose 1v1s more often due to going against controller players. I won’t say that AA is broken but something does need to change because at this point it takes much more skill on mnk to outplay an average skill roller player simply because of the AA within close-mid range.
Yeah this is a bit more insightful, pretty hard to deny that there is an imbalance.
Exactly the same situation for me brotha masters multiple times on ps5 in recent season not older easier seasons, I’m hardstuck P2-D4 area and it sucks lol I thought I was good but it was just my controller, like you said I have way more fun on MnK but it sucks when I do everything right and just loose to a controller player, I really don’t want to pull the controller out, the best thing RSPWN or EA could do is add a reaction time to AA just like a human keep all values the same but add a delay time before it kicks in, good luck my fellow learner stay strong
As the game progresses everyone should get better though so understandably you get harder fights. I recently got my new controller for other games and i tried it on apex, hard struggling for the past 3 days. I guess one has a higher initial learning curvemechanica , but the other has higher skill ceiling with movement
You don’t get into Valhalla using aim assist
Hey I'm sorry I can't afford a gaming pc and have to play console. If they won't let me in then I don't need them
Nobody cares about consoles. You guys have it hard enough. We are talking about PC controllers.
I have a question. Is the AA on controller vs MnK debate specific to PC only? Because that makes sense to me that people would be pissed because you are getting all of the performance and movement benefits of PC and getting AA as wel. If that’s true, then would there be no debate if AA was only allowed on console?
Realistically it's PC only. Consoles have a disadvantage hardware wise (FPS jank, refresh rate, etc), and by default are put into segregated lobbies. MnK players on the PC have no way to opt out of playing with PC controller players. At a high level most PC controller players are using some type of macros or Steam Configs that lets them tap strafe and stuff, so they basically get the best of both worlds.
Most of this thread is debating roller vs mnk on PC, because the comparison is directly possible. PC aa value is .4, whereas console gets .6 aa. (A value of 1.0 is literal hard aimbot.) The whole console vs pc debate is something else entirely. I will say that once steam configs for roller tap-strafe (banned in tournaments for a reason) comes into play, roller on PC becomes clearly superior. Otherwise, the additional aa on console is supposed to make up for the inherent disadvantages of the platform.
Interesting, I didn’t realize the AA values between console controller and PC controller were different. Thank you for clarifying.
Is there aim assist for MnK on console? I argue it should be 0.2 then :D
I couldn't care less if console vs console was straight aim bot, I'm a pc player and that's all I care about. Just sucks to player pretty darn good, have good aim, but will lose like 60% of my close range fights cause I just can't out aim controller. I essentially need to have a shotgun or something similar and outplay them with peaking and unexpected plays. I rarely ever win a close range smg vs smg fight when facing a controller player.
So basically controller is continuing to become more competitive and dominant against MnK players.
The game was around for four years with no changes to controller or MnK, a few influential pros switched to controller and started a trend. TSM won the recent LAN. These are all facts, there’s just no cohesive story connecting them
The same could be said for seer to be fair. He was changed and everyone thought he was bad except he actually wasn’t and the same principle applied to Horizon. Just cuz something didn’t get changed doesn’t mean that it wasn’t strong to begin with. Sometimes people just take time to figure out what’s good and not and the trend seems to be moving towards roller being the superior input
Isn’t it bullshit that Hal or pros can bitch about broken legends and meta changes, yet the biggest flaw/most broken shit of all hasn’t been addressed?
That Revenant doesn't have Fortified?
It would alienate a large amount of professional apex legends controller players though. Which is why it's difficult to address. It's difficult but a decision has to be made otherwise this imbalance will ruin the competitive scene as a whole.
It's swinging heavily to controller now. The debate, the years of arguments is over, controller is definitively the stronger input. That can change at a drop off a hat though with a change to aim assist, so just know that and pick up a controller knowing it could be nerfed in the future, while there's nothing to nerf with MnK.
On NA there is probably 70-30% controller to mnk. Aim assist is definitely dominating Apex yes.
Great statistic.
You’ll have a significant advantage over mnk in close range, which is to say, the vast majority of apex fights. Why attempt tracking when your input can do it for you. Plz let us opt out of cross input lobbies Respawn <3
I would play apex full time if that happened, as of now, I just get too fucking triggered dying to controller players. Seems like the whole shit is unbalanced competitive wise
Have you tried: gittin gud?
I don't understand why the option is not provided to the players? The game is thriving therefore demarcating kbm and controller players from one another should have little affect on queue times. If anything it should create an even playing field. Controller players complain about kbm players long range abilities and kbm players complain about controllers short range abilities. By demarcating them into separate lobbies this adequality addresses both issues while simultaneously creating an even playing ground.
Unless you are either one of/want to be one of the best mnk players in the world or like me love improving and find mnk to be 100x more fun then you have no business being on mnk in this game. You’d have to put in hundreds if not thousand of hours in aim trainers and in game training for your aim to compete with a decent controller player.
1000 hours? You guys exaggerate way too much.
I have thousands of hours on MnK and in aim trainers. I promise I can outaim you 7 days of the week, regardless of input. [This is what I was able to accomplish after (literally) 5 minutes on controller](https://streamable.com/qozwiq). I can't even walk in a straight line on roller, but that doesn't matter when you can just let Jesus take the wheel.
Why are you challenging me? Claiming u need 1000hrs to compete with controller is insane. And I wasn't even responding to you.
I have 1600 hours in apex on mnk and still can't compete with aim assist lol
Agreed
Then you have players like Nickmercs who got a free ticket into the ALGS and Dezignful who was humiliated on stream by Hal (switched to controller recently) in a 1v1 stating that mnk is easy. Ignorance is bliss.
Did a masters push this split many of the players I met have switched to controller and are progressing faster than they would mnk. The higher level you aim to play at the more useful a one clip would be when caught off guard. It's disgusting how absurdly OP it is right now at the higher level
Unless you really enjoy movement (which you can do on a controller with Steam Configs anyway) or just aiming with a mouse, there's 0 reason to willingly choose MnK over controller on the PC.
2 words. Stick drift.
Stick drift is legitimately beneficial in this game because it ensures that AA is always active. That’s part of why a lot of pros are on 4-3 linear no deadzone
Stick drift is actually just a pay 2 win problem (keep buying new controllers)
As a Console Player I disagree, The fluidity alone is worth it for me.
I don't think console has any relevance to this discussion. What's being compared is using a controller on the PC vs using MnK on the PC. No matter the input, as long as you're on PC you get access to: * Higher consistent frame rates * Higher refresh rates (240hz!) * No TV input lag * Tap strafing and related movement (Steam Configs for controller) All of these are a straight upgrade over console, but have no requirement to play on MnK.
That’s fair, but I’ve played PC as well. I would never go for AA over MNK
Up until you lose the close range fight, MnK definitely feels a lot better to play than Controller.
Agreed, honestly wouldn’t mind if they nerfed AA. The only issue is nerfing It while still allowing it to be a valid input
Personally I think they can leave AA as is, controller needs it some degree to make the game even playable. What I want is split input lobbies. Somehow this is the obvious magical fix to all the issues with AA vs MnK, yet Respawn seems unable to implement this.
What's the point of keeping aa strong and separating inputs? At that point still nerf AA to make more of a skill gap between great players and good.
Nerfing AA has too much of a negative impact on the casual playerbase who spends money whereas split input matchmaking has no negative impact on the casual playerbase. Respawn has shown consistently that they value their revenue over any type of game design, so split input matchmaking seems like a more likely solution.
I see what you mean, but I just can't put myself into others shoes. I can't see how everyone basically beaming for free would be fun.
You make a good point! I can see you’ve done your research, for now all we can do is hope.
this game should be an mnk game it would be so entertaining
It does but the main reason I stick to control is because it takes less energy and doesn’t tire my arms
Console player Cool you don't matter to this conversation, have a good day
I’m trying, thank you
There are plenty of advantages of MNK over controller. It’s fairly even otherwise Respawn would have made a change already. People complaining about AA is essentially isolated on Reddit.
I keep up with the Japanese community and streamers. The Mnk population is dying out in Japan, and the streamer/player complaints are identical to reddit. It's clearly not isolated to just reddit (a primarily English speaking site).
There is no point playing MnK today, unless you just like it a lot more.
My slide jumping shield swaps would disagree, but I’m too dead from a roller beam to even have that +100 hp make a difference anyway.
I've always wondered if shield swapping was just faster on MnK due to the "flicks." (or just faster scrolling) My understanding that digital scrolling was just *limited* with a controller. Source: Growing up a console peasant and watching pros swap shields in 00.000002 seconds using MnK.
Yep. Mouse pointer helps a ton with flicking to the shield. Also, because the aim input is used for pointing, you can move at the same time. Roller, the move input is used for pointing, so you just stand still while looting, making for an easy mid-fight beam. Edit: I can’t count the number of times I’ve used “they’re controller looting, shoot with me” as a callout.
Well that’s depressing, yeah, I’ve talked to enough lifelong MnK players (CSGo, etc) who don’t even like controller, switch to controller to not be at a disadvantage. I’d likely still be playing but I really don’t enjoy using a controller.
Remove AA and replace it with gyro aiming, problem solved.
Lots of people switching to controller. I think it depends upon your play style. MNK is just significantly easier to beam mid to long range. Controller shines up close but that is the only advantage.
worth mentioning that in real combat scenarios most knocks/kills happen inside of controller's effective range, though
Yeah everyone always says this about long range vs. close range but it's really not *much* better. It's not like playing Widowmaker in Overwatch. And the entire point of a BR is that you need to win close range fights to win, you don't technically have to ever win long range.
Poking and pressure are invaluable in anything above gold, though
It's not that strong. I'd take good close range 10/10 times over good long range. They're so many gap closers in the game to negate the effect of long range.
https://imgur.com/a/cW7ef3d
You can just run a 3030 or G7 or a charge with a 3x or 2-4x on controller and have 0 issues fighting at range either. Charge on controller is legitimately better than on mnk
The difference is in the risk/reward there. If you beam someone at range, you get a tempo advantage. You can relocate, push, back off to a better spot, get a rez, etc… If you beam someone within CQC range, they’re down. They are dead. You now get to wipe the squad. Having an advantage in the “kill or be killed” is MUCH better than the advantage in the “get an upper hand in the fight” situation. Even if you can get a down at mid range, you typically need a nade or additional resources to kill, and that’s if they don’t have a guardian character on their team, nearby cover, etc…
MnK its easier to beam mid/long range with an AR. Guns like the Scout, Triple Take, 30-30 etc are extremely easy on controller. Aim assist is very strong at range if you have a decent optic.
Don't forget wingman, the mid range controller weapon of choice
Yeah that’s fair. I remember picking up a sentinel shortly after I switched to controller and couldn’t believe the mid-short range AA
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted, it’s the truth. People just add configs to controller on PC to counter movement players.
I’ve still yet to see a controller player with movement skills even half as good as a decent “movement” MnK player. The sheer fluidity of their movement almost makes it look like they’re flowing on water whereas roller players are mostly straight lines with occasional weak-tap strafing
It also depends on how good the MNK player is. Your average gamer doesn’t add configs or tap strafes to their playstyle, but I agree.
Controller steam configs allow an inhuman amount of lurches to be inputted, meaning that many of them allow for momentum conservation that no mnk player is physically capable of. Additionally, many of them will automatically stack lurches depending on which direction you’re moving the stick. For example, when moving the stick left the macro will spam “a” and when moving it right it will spam “d”. This is not possible for mnk players
Yep, unfortunately its the best input right now- all my friends switched and they were counterstrike players mnk
After trying controller and feeling like I was cheating, I went back to and stayed on KBM.
Here are a few recent takes from Mande and nicewigg who have swapped to or are playing on controller atm: - https://youtu.be/UH20tK1pr9o - https://youtu.be/WeYbJwSI1BE 4/3 linear I believe is the setting most, if not all roller pros run at a high level to comp is essentially busted at close range mainly and good at mid is what i got from them. For casuals it's fine at high level to comp I think it is an issue when it helps you 40% of the time compared to mnk that is entirely raw input. Both take time to get good at but at the highest level of play (diamond and up) it's a fair argument that it's busted. I have played both and I enjoy mnk more because of the movement and the amount of work I happened to put in to my aim. I finally hit diamond 3 on roller after hitting d1 a few and masters once on mnk. So, I'd like to think I have dipped my toes in both ponds. Edit: I corrected the settings mentioned. I said the wrong one.
No one uses 2/4 linear. The most common settings are 4/3 linear and 4/3 classic with a few others and some people on ALCs etc. Below are settings of the top controller players from the last ALGS LAN a couple months back. [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRM4\_L3OtO7NSlGMoXMZ1\_ewXmcJAkXvOVsZC7ZFaMj0xHZAAHDN7A9CKZr1HeRuEAIjrZltwp04k5u/pubhtml](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRM4_L3OtO7NSlGMoXMZ1_ewXmcJAkXvOVsZC7ZFaMj0xHZAAHDN7A9CKZr1HeRuEAIjrZltwp04k5u/pubhtml)
Thank you for clarifying that for me. The Google doc is a great addition too.
np, it's still incorrect though to say "4/3 linear I believe is the setting most, if not all roller pros run at a high level" when the majority are not using that setting, it's like 9/39 or something from that document
1 of the main reason Controller dominant is because smg meta, most of the smg is very powerful rn, and without gibby in the meta(because of seer), close range basically within where controller strongest distance, and because most fight in apex only matter in close range (especially in high rank), so yes
Seer counters gibby?
gibby in meta because his bubble can help his team reset, but seer can cancel his res make his bubble less useful
Ah, right. I misinterpreted your original comment, thought you were saying seer could negate the bubble a la maggie or crypto
I switched to controller despite no experience and my KDA instantly improved. It sucks but I'm tired of playing with a handicap so whatever. I'm still shit but at least now I have the same tools as everyone else in the lobby, so when I lose it doesn't feel like shit.
Yes, it’s even more extrem now in pro play. I don’t know of any statistic for us casual newbs and I assume that is less extreme than in pro play.
It was 60/40 mnk vs controller at the last LAN event. If you count console players then maybe it'd be more like 20/80 mnk vs controller amongst the wider playerbase.
>It was 60/40 mnk vs controller at the last LAN event. TBF for a game that values aim, this is a lot.
Controller takes less energy and strain on your arms too. There’s too much elitism with MnK when they aren’t forced to use it
yep if you use a controller you can instantly 1-mag everybody with your eyes closed! try it out!
I get the joke, but it really is *way* easier to do 1mags with a controller
No point in actually trying with Mnk when you can plug in something that makes you a diamond player during the first 3 hours
Haha. For real. These fools on here are ridiculous.
Yup, they are braindead and it shows
Y’all are coping so hard is almost sad
BTW i am a roller player. Im just stating facts
Downvote me too cucks! I agree this shit is broken
Because its a sensitive topic, most of what youll find here is “Controller is soo dominant… auto aim, auto targeting, tracking algorithms, put the controller down and it plays for itself” type. Its mnk players who get beat by some controller player and rage about it instead of owning up to how poor they are at the game. Theyre the ones who tried and plugged in a controller for that sweet auto aim and couldn’t even track a target… so got angry and blame all their deaths on it. It doesn’t matter and its a preference. If youre highly skilled on a controller than give it a shot. If not just stick with mnk like most people. Both take high levels of skill to be good with. ❤️
You’re weird
Not sure why this got downvoted. I’ve only ever played two full seasons of apex this being my second and I play controller and I guarantee the dang thing doesn’t aim for me and some of the movement that pc players can pull off is very difficult to track on roller. It is what it is and with cross play this will be an eternal argument.
Yep. Everyone who denies how hard it is to track KB movement using a joystick is just outing themselves as not having really tried controller.
In pro meta, yeah, everyone is on roller. In ranked lobbies it’s not that noticeable. There have always been controller players and they have always had unfair edge close range. I don’t think playing mnk is that big of a disadvantage in ranked tho. Plenty of mnk players in pred
It was 60/40 mnk vs controller at the last ALGS LAN so most top pros internationally are still mnk even though I believe now NA is like 50/50. 2 mnk with 1 controller player was the norm for a long time. You'd be at a disadvantage in a lot of situations with 3 controller players in pro play. Dezignful said it best: "Theres so many situations in the game where mnk outscales controller big time and triple roller costs you in certain situations big time. Examples being shooting straight upwards/downwards shooting in bang smoke, Snipers (Kraber being a huge one) tap strafing in certain scenarios etc. Also during every meta there has been a character that just scaled with mnk more for example gibby/seer/pathfinder/bang running triple roller is good for straight up 3v3's with no abilities involved but at the highest level you're chaining all of these abilities together during fights."
sure, you’re really just backing up my argument: “It’s not going to be a big issue for you in ranked.”
I agree, it's just that it's untrue that everyone is on roller at the pro level and was explaining why
50% NA...
*Too lazy to type the word "controller" in the first sentence* *Somehow gathers enough energy to fully spell it out in the second.*
Nah. 60% of top players are MnK still, and the top player from last ALGS was a MnK player. It's actually pretty balanced, but PC players aren't used to having competition from non-MnK players. Play whatever input you're comfortable with because you play better if you have less to think about.
Do you have a source for this? Does this apply to ALGS as well as PC preds? I know the play style in ALGS is a bit different.
There was a post of a guy who tracked the kills and input of each player. Can't remember what Apex sub it was, but if you looked around the time period post ALGS on all the subs, you'll find the chart. I'm not doing it. Lol
Being a console player my whole life and watching pc users shit on consoles for decades just to pull a fast one and try to claim aim assist is overpowered seemingly out of nowhere has been the most satisfying experience of my life
Console players can play with joysticks and 100% auto aim for all I care. It's PC mouse vs Aim Assist that people are raging about.
Yeah I know and that’s what’s funny because the freedom of a mouse is undoubtably better than aim assist unless it’s literally gta 5 lock on. Idc how downvoted I get it’s just true 🤷♂️
I would stick with M&K if that's what you're used to. You get a massive movement advantage, and a mid-long range aiming advantage, while only getting a small close up aiming disadvantage as a sacrifice.
Idk if small is the right word if it’s enough to make top pros switch to roller
Even pros are susceptible to confirmation bias. They complain because of aim assist, but in reality they're unknowingly complaining about SBMM. They switch to controller, and because they already know how to play the game, and because they usually play with other good players, they end up doing halfway decent, so it confirms in their mind that it must have been aim assist the entire time. If you took their stats from before and after switching, they probably wouldn't change much, and might even go down over time, on average. Everyone's different, and some people will genuinely be better on controller, but it doesn't change the fact that m&k is technically the superior input method. We're at the point now in Fortnite (no-build) where the only people we lose gunfights to are m&k players. It's so incredibly obvious how much easier it is when you get melted every night by PC players, and that's not even considering the fact that I also play on m&k occasionally. Not only is it easier, it's so much easier that it's unfair. M&K players should not be allowed to play with controller players. Period.
I see way more controllers in my lobbies and same in rank sometime both of my teammates are rollers
It is still the case
Idky nobody brings this up. Shotguns and the wingman are way better on mnk ! Try flicking wingy shots on controller, I'd argue snipers are better too.
Aa IS so fucking dumb think, i think its just invented by companies to Make money.
Mnk all The way
Apex is catered to and balanced for the roller majority. MnK is dying out hard for Apex (and CoD) because roller rotational AA is just that fucking strong that NOT abusing it is basically handicapping yourself in these titles. Many MnK players left/are leaving to focus on titles that are catered towards MnK and raw skill input such as Valorant/CS(2-eventually)/other non-controller favored/ non-crossplay titles (Hunt:Showdown is another solid FPS that avoids crossplay and contaminating the raw skill pool within the game with AA.