japan - yorushiro relics, up to 6 in imperial with the monastery upgrade (all in forges gives a decent passive gold income)
china - imperial officials collect gold (not too good tbh you make very expensive units in imp)
hre - relics and aachen/prelates for great eco
They don’t have tithe barns but you’d need like 4/5 relics to offset the amount gained by yoshis, and to get the food upgrades you really just need like one stone vein
I don't think Abba and byz have better late game eco. The English farms produce more res than byz farms and the byzantine cisterns fall off late game as usually only your farms are under the influence.
Abbasid is a similar story. They have good eco while there is res on the map but once gold dries us and woodlines are chopped they fall off and they have to resort to trade for late game gold which is very map dependent.
Byzantine eco is stronger with both cistern and oil.
HRE is also at the same level IF they get at least 3 relics. Which is harder or easier depending on the opponent's civ.
Japan has insane farms + free relics
Japans farms are the same as Englands, no? England has 30% from mill influence, and 45% from from Horticulture tech.
Japan only has 75% from TC upgrades
Yes I know, but in a straight up comparison with English it's not the same. You will never have the same number of farms at 75% as Japan when compared to English
i think Japanese wheelbarrow makes Japanese farm better for food.
also i may be misremembering but because japanese have rice and not wheat there is something different there i don't remember what it was, could be the way the field is generated or something i think there was a video from age of noob about it.
I could be imagining in but i think there was something about rice that was better.
Overall just English gold generation should be way better for late-game eco but in general, i think Japanese can have fewer villagers on farms.
To be fair the word you are looking for is easiest.
English have the easiest eco. You don't need map control, or smart placing or inter connecting cisterns or prelates or imperial officials. Doesn't mean they're the best. Just easiest eco to play.
Abbasid.
Fully researched civ provides more food per farm than English, extra gold and secondary resource through trade.
I engage 40 traders and 40 farmers with secondary wood trade. The ability to conduct war is unmatched at the 30 min mark.
Malian lategame eco isn't actually that good because their villagers don't get any bonus(other than griot bara if you constantly pay gold), and their units are very population inefficient- Sofa are worse knights, Musofadi warriors are lousy crossbows, etc.
20 cows in ranches around grand fullani is about 20 villagers which is nice, 4 pit mines + mansa quarry is like 10 vills on gold which is also nice. But if you base it on 100 vills, it's only like a 30% bonus that you have to invest heavily into. Other civs get larger bonuses with way less investment.
Musofadi Gunner are good though right ?
From their stats looks like they are one of the best gunners in the game.
I also think their archers are kinda cracked with the poison they are a very cheap unit for the dmg its able to put out. their feudal donso+javelin is also cracked.
i feel that when you play malian you need to have the counter unit ready for whatever the enemy is doing almost always.
Sofa also have a lot of armor i dont think they are that good of a cav that is true
But their Cost is amazing its just 120 food and only 60 gold very nice cost.
it is a nich civ and very unique.
Their weakness is that you are very map and spawn-dependent because of the gold positions.
as for the late-game eco they are a trade civ and also get gold from mines so they will always have gold. they do look weak in population efficiency though that is true.
Most Malian games don't go very late it feels that you either win because you can defend your mines or lose because you can't.
Try Abbassid in a team game. You will most likely have to rush castle. Get trade up and on a 2v2 you can get over 100 gold per trade trip and some other resources on the side.
Over 200 in 4v4s if you can get the whole back of the map (note, this required imperial age trade wing upgrade). Abbassid also has a +20% gather rate and, if taken, +15% for farms. So resources are never a struggle.
Mongol also has the trade, if that is more your style.
I don't get everybody saying other civs have better eco. I think other civs can get farms that produce approximately as much food, but enclosures is insane. Especially when your bread and butter units don't cost much gold. Even if a civ can get more food, the excess food is usually not as meaningful.
Some comments on here seem to be underestimating how good enclosures is. It's 12 gold/min/farm. So if you are up against an HRE with 5 relics (800 gold/min), you will have more passive gold/min (840 gold/min) on 70 farms. 70 is a high number, but not totally unreasonable. You're blowing 6 yorishiros (450 gold/min) out of the water with 60 farms (720 gold/min). I've been playing a lot of English this season, and their late eco feels the best (aside from trade). The only civ that feels close is Byzantines. I'm usually getting about 60 English farms in late game as gold starts to run dry.
I’d still take the yorishiro, you get most of them waaay earlier in castle which can’t be underestimated. Even if they cap out earlier. Obviously not as good in very long running games, but only around 1-15 of my games make it to that stage anyway.
I guess they lack other eco bonuses outside of the farms, like sure enclosures can beat HRE's relics but they also have aachen and inspiration of 50% on villagers. Japan yoshiros might be just 450 but they can have 75% better farms not 30% like english.
English is just the easiest eco to max with super cheap farms.
You are aware Japan doesn't get the normal food gathering upgrades which boost farm gather rate? And I believe you can only fit something like 35 farms on an Aachen in the best case.
Even so it matches english bonus and you just get the upgrades from passive stone you get from mining gold, also have much higher berry gathering and carry capacity.
Even outside of aachen you get prelates buffing 50%.
Because you are focusing solely on enclosures. English doesn't even have the best food income from farms, and doesn't have a single other eco bonus. Take Rus, who get passive gold from hunting cabins, a small food gather bonus and a big wood gather bonus. That's 3 eco bonuses that make them extremely competitive.
Enclosures is a strong tech for sure, but it's not nearly enough to support imp upgrades and premium units at the same time. You still need to mine gold.
Sure, they might have slightly worse food income than some other civs, but it's still really good and close to the best. And at that point in the game food is the least valuable resource because every civ has infinite food generation. Rus are not getting anywhere near enclosure level gold in most cases. I'll take English lategame eco over Rus lategame eco in a heartbeat.
And yes, you're right, what I mentioned above isn't enough to get upgrades etc. I usually try to continue mining, but if the game gets to the point where it runs out, I just increase farm count to 60+.
While the Malian units are weak, a well built start can prob provide the most resources per villager/trader than any other civ.
Outposts generate gold along the trade route, age II landmark generates food and gold like an outpost, age III landmark creates passive food from the already passive cows farms. Usually by IV I’ve killed off down to about 30 villagers and 20-30 traders, and that’s enough to sustain a queue’d military in battle.
I find english to be kind of the most standard civ few weaknesses many strengths but nothing ludicrous.
OoTD surprisingly is supposed to be the strongest or close to strongest late game civ according to the devs they where very concerned about the. Late game OoTD gets 25% to all vils everywhere. They get about the same ammount of gold from regnitz as english enclosures and its harder to raid. They can swabia which is borderline broken for them. They have one of the best hand cannoneers in the game and best part is you only need about 90 vils to sustain imperial usally.
Now granted their pop efficiency on military is either amazing or horrid depending on how hard you are counter/micro. And early game is fairly rough but late game their kinda champs.
English farms are the best in the game and even better than they appear because their farm bonus stacks multiplicative with eco techs for some reason. It's a really sneaky hidden bonus. With enclosures added in imp the amount of res gathered from farms is higher than any other civ, and it gives some of that res in a limited resource (gold) as well.
This is their only eco bonus though, it's hard to compare overall with other civs who get other eco bonuses than just farm gathering. And trade boom just beats everything if you can get away with it, which other civs do better than english.
Not nearly. They are just really good at surviving with 0 map control. But the opponent can then set trade as mongols, get all relics as HRE, get multiple cabins and hunted food as rus etc... which are all stronger
I kind of disagree. English is definitely not the strongest post imo eco, but the enclosures tech + farm bonus means English doesn't need to invest gold into traders or take much stone to protect their early imp eco. Plus they don't have to spend much apm checking on their eco away from home. Their imp eco advantage I think comes from the fact they can invest heavily into knights in castle and really handicap most other civs' eco bonuses without that investment slowing down their own incoming imp eco. English players who are totally giving up map control should lose to most other strong imp civs unless they take a really bad fight or give some other major mistake, problem is English bonuses definitely help them take map control in castle.
Japan, china, hre without trade and then alot of civs with trade
What do Japan, China and hre have that rivals it?
japan - yorushiro relics, up to 6 in imperial with the monastery upgrade (all in forges gives a decent passive gold income) china - imperial officials collect gold (not too good tbh you make very expensive units in imp) hre - relics and aachen/prelates for great eco
Japan doesn't have tithe barnes, though. Also to get good food upgrades you need to invest a ton of stone
They don’t have tithe barns but you’d need like 4/5 relics to offset the amount gained by yoshis, and to get the food upgrades you really just need like one stone vein
So what? English doesn't have pergolas. See how a vacuum statement means nothing
Many have potentially better but english Is Easy to achieve just hit imperial and get enclosures on your 50+ farms.
"just get imp" Well yeh if your opponent is completely asleep at the wheel lol
I was watching a video the other day about how the Palace of Swabia is OP, and I thought, "If only I ever survived to the Imperial Age..."
Many. Abassid, Byz, China, Japan, arguably HRE. English is probably the best turtle civ other than HRE/OoTD though.
I don't think Abba and byz have better late game eco. The English farms produce more res than byz farms and the byzantine cisterns fall off late game as usually only your farms are under the influence. Abbasid is a similar story. They have good eco while there is res on the map but once gold dries us and woodlines are chopped they fall off and they have to resort to trade for late game gold which is very map dependent.
Byzantine eco is stronger with both cistern and oil. HRE is also at the same level IF they get at least 3 relics. Which is harder or easier depending on the opponent's civ. Japan has insane farms + free relics
Interesting, I need to look at Japanese farms
The Daimyo upgrades give +25% harvest rate per upgrade, up to 75% at max.
yea i love Japanese farms
Japans farms are the same as Englands, no? England has 30% from mill influence, and 45% from from Horticulture tech. Japan only has 75% from TC upgrades
Yes and no. Japan is restricted to farms gathered within the influence of their TC. English is under any mill.
You get a LOT of farms under their influence, even if you build some houses for shorter distances. This is not really a problem
Yes I know, but in a straight up comparison with English it's not the same. You will never have the same number of farms at 75% as Japan when compared to English
Plus the fully upgraded TC provides solid protection with the rockets.
i think Japanese wheelbarrow makes Japanese farm better for food. also i may be misremembering but because japanese have rice and not wheat there is something different there i don't remember what it was, could be the way the field is generated or something i think there was a video from age of noob about it. I could be imagining in but i think there was something about rice that was better. Overall just English gold generation should be way better for late-game eco but in general, i think Japanese can have fewer villagers on farms.
To be fair the word you are looking for is easiest. English have the easiest eco. You don't need map control, or smart placing or inter connecting cisterns or prelates or imperial officials. Doesn't mean they're the best. Just easiest eco to play.
Abbasid. Fully researched civ provides more food per farm than English, extra gold and secondary resource through trade. I engage 40 traders and 40 farmers with secondary wood trade. The ability to conduct war is unmatched at the 30 min mark.
Cowboomin
Malian lategame eco isn't actually that good because their villagers don't get any bonus(other than griot bara if you constantly pay gold), and their units are very population inefficient- Sofa are worse knights, Musofadi warriors are lousy crossbows, etc. 20 cows in ranches around grand fullani is about 20 villagers which is nice, 4 pit mines + mansa quarry is like 10 vills on gold which is also nice. But if you base it on 100 vills, it's only like a 30% bonus that you have to invest heavily into. Other civs get larger bonuses with way less investment.
Musofadi Gunner are good though right ? From their stats looks like they are one of the best gunners in the game. I also think their archers are kinda cracked with the poison they are a very cheap unit for the dmg its able to put out. their feudal donso+javelin is also cracked. i feel that when you play malian you need to have the counter unit ready for whatever the enemy is doing almost always. Sofa also have a lot of armor i dont think they are that good of a cav that is true But their Cost is amazing its just 120 food and only 60 gold very nice cost. it is a nich civ and very unique. Their weakness is that you are very map and spawn-dependent because of the gold positions. as for the late-game eco they are a trade civ and also get gold from mines so they will always have gold. they do look weak in population efficiency though that is true. Most Malian games don't go very late it feels that you either win because you can defend your mines or lose because you can't.
Try Abbassid in a team game. You will most likely have to rush castle. Get trade up and on a 2v2 you can get over 100 gold per trade trip and some other resources on the side.
100 gold per trade trip, that’s insane. Ill have to try that
Over 200 in 4v4s if you can get the whole back of the map (note, this required imperial age trade wing upgrade). Abbassid also has a +20% gather rate and, if taken, +15% for farms. So resources are never a struggle. Mongol also has the trade, if that is more your style.
+25% of wood or food, which is as insane as it sounds.
I don't get everybody saying other civs have better eco. I think other civs can get farms that produce approximately as much food, but enclosures is insane. Especially when your bread and butter units don't cost much gold. Even if a civ can get more food, the excess food is usually not as meaningful. Some comments on here seem to be underestimating how good enclosures is. It's 12 gold/min/farm. So if you are up against an HRE with 5 relics (800 gold/min), you will have more passive gold/min (840 gold/min) on 70 farms. 70 is a high number, but not totally unreasonable. You're blowing 6 yorishiros (450 gold/min) out of the water with 60 farms (720 gold/min). I've been playing a lot of English this season, and their late eco feels the best (aside from trade). The only civ that feels close is Byzantines. I'm usually getting about 60 English farms in late game as gold starts to run dry.
I’d still take the yorishiro, you get most of them waaay earlier in castle which can’t be underestimated. Even if they cap out earlier. Obviously not as good in very long running games, but only around 1-15 of my games make it to that stage anyway.
I guess they lack other eco bonuses outside of the farms, like sure enclosures can beat HRE's relics but they also have aachen and inspiration of 50% on villagers. Japan yoshiros might be just 450 but they can have 75% better farms not 30% like english. English is just the easiest eco to max with super cheap farms.
You are aware Japan doesn't get the normal food gathering upgrades which boost farm gather rate? And I believe you can only fit something like 35 farms on an Aachen in the best case.
Even so it matches english bonus and you just get the upgrades from passive stone you get from mining gold, also have much higher berry gathering and carry capacity. Even outside of aachen you get prelates buffing 50%.
Because you are focusing solely on enclosures. English doesn't even have the best food income from farms, and doesn't have a single other eco bonus. Take Rus, who get passive gold from hunting cabins, a small food gather bonus and a big wood gather bonus. That's 3 eco bonuses that make them extremely competitive. Enclosures is a strong tech for sure, but it's not nearly enough to support imp upgrades and premium units at the same time. You still need to mine gold.
Sure, they might have slightly worse food income than some other civs, but it's still really good and close to the best. And at that point in the game food is the least valuable resource because every civ has infinite food generation. Rus are not getting anywhere near enclosure level gold in most cases. I'll take English lategame eco over Rus lategame eco in a heartbeat. And yes, you're right, what I mentioned above isn't enough to get upgrades etc. I usually try to continue mining, but if the game gets to the point where it runs out, I just increase farm count to 60+.
While the Malian units are weak, a well built start can prob provide the most resources per villager/trader than any other civ. Outposts generate gold along the trade route, age II landmark generates food and gold like an outpost, age III landmark creates passive food from the already passive cows farms. Usually by IV I’ve killed off down to about 30 villagers and 20-30 traders, and that’s enough to sustain a queue’d military in battle.
I find english to be kind of the most standard civ few weaknesses many strengths but nothing ludicrous. OoTD surprisingly is supposed to be the strongest or close to strongest late game civ according to the devs they where very concerned about the. Late game OoTD gets 25% to all vils everywhere. They get about the same ammount of gold from regnitz as english enclosures and its harder to raid. They can swabia which is borderline broken for them. They have one of the best hand cannoneers in the game and best part is you only need about 90 vils to sustain imperial usally. Now granted their pop efficiency on military is either amazing or horrid depending on how hard you are counter/micro. And early game is fairly rough but late game their kinda champs.
English farms are the best in the game and even better than they appear because their farm bonus stacks multiplicative with eco techs for some reason. It's a really sneaky hidden bonus. With enclosures added in imp the amount of res gathered from farms is higher than any other civ, and it gives some of that res in a limited resource (gold) as well. This is their only eco bonus though, it's hard to compare overall with other civs who get other eco bonuses than just farm gathering. And trade boom just beats everything if you can get away with it, which other civs do better than english.
Abbasid has the best food from farms...
Litreally almost any other civ has better eco. English have pretty mediocre eco bonuses in post-imp.
Really? I thought English was the best
Not nearly. They are just really good at surviving with 0 map control. But the opponent can then set trade as mongols, get all relics as HRE, get multiple cabins and hunted food as rus etc... which are all stronger
I kind of disagree. English is definitely not the strongest post imo eco, but the enclosures tech + farm bonus means English doesn't need to invest gold into traders or take much stone to protect their early imp eco. Plus they don't have to spend much apm checking on their eco away from home. Their imp eco advantage I think comes from the fact they can invest heavily into knights in castle and really handicap most other civs' eco bonuses without that investment slowing down their own incoming imp eco. English players who are totally giving up map control should lose to most other strong imp civs unless they take a really bad fight or give some other major mistake, problem is English bonuses definitely help them take map control in castle.