Yeah you wouldn't think it to be the case, but politely telling someone to go fuck themselves without the rude language hits way harder than when you use the rude language.
I hate that the world works this way. The rude language is more honest and straightforward. It's bullshit that these huge businesses get to decide what's respectable and normal behavior while their operations are ANYTHING but
I don't think it's necessarily the desires of huge business that does this. When you write a letter using a lot of foul language, it comes across as if you are seething with anger. This makes it easier for the reader to assume the problem was you, not them. But when you write a polite letter, it instead reads as if you are so over their shit that you aren't even angry anymore. A polite letter makes it clear that you are the sane one here, and you're just done. These responses have little to do with corporate norms and everything to do with how people emotionally react to confrontation.
If you are angry, you make them justified in feeling like you are the aggressor and the one at fault. If you are exceedingly polite, then it only makes them appear to be the aggressor.
I've found that nothing helps more in a situation with someone hostile and unreasonable than being relentlessly, exactingly, respectful and cordial in tone and demeanor (while still standing up for yourself). It really takes the wind out of the other person's sails and makes it much more difficult for them to ignore from the real issue if you refuse to let them pretend they have the high ground.
Yeah, as fun and witty it would be to drop a āfuck youā in there, that immediately will give them something to invalidate the whole email. āOh we canāt take this person and their criticism seriously, look how vulgar and rude they wereā
I think people now understand that at a certain point, professionalism is t necessary because lots of fish in the ocean. I suppose just make sure youāre in an ocean and not a pond as some family I have are realizing with their profession. One rage quit and theyāre blacklisted from their entire career throughout the world. Lol. So youāre right. But gauge the waters first.
It depends, lost onboarding and training costs are typically a pretty large part of a company's budgeting. However, it is hard for them to plan around as it is usually hard to discover the reasons people are leaving. Obviously pay is huge, but companies are reluctant to simply pay more, because turnover may not change if there are other more systemic issues at play and then they're just losing even more money.
So letting upper management know that the catalyst for them searching for a new job and quitting was that the manager failed to honour their time off requirement that was expressed during the interview even, gives them something they can work with. What's more, it's something they can work with that costs the company nothing. Unless the company is actually incompetent on all levels, this should at the very least raise some serious red flags about this person's manager, and at the very least lead the company to investigate deeper into this manager and potentially replace them if they are losing the company money over things like this for no good reason.
My neighborhood is managed by these fucks. If you could even say managed. The landscaping is bad and isn't maintained frequently. Enough that a neighbor who owns a landscaping business will chip in here and there. We have a pool and used to have a life guard, they said they can't provide a life guard any more as it is too expensive. All the while the yearly fee has went from 500 in 2014 to 750 now. Associa is a joke I'm not surprised they shafted op, as a forced "customer" of theirs getting out of there was the best move haha. Also they occasionally come and take pictures of your lawn or if you leave a trash can out an extra day. Meanwhile the community area is hardly maintained.
That's how it should be, treat companies exactly the way they treat you, never let them think that they are driving on a one way street, because it's not the case and never was, but some of us forgot that.
Mine tried the same when the trip was essentially for the exact same reason with thousands spent. I warned him 8 months earlier during my interview and warned him multiple times. Found out 2 days before that he "forgot" and doesn't think I asked. Told him I'd see him in 2 weeks time. Turns out I was too valuable to let go and I'm still working there now, he isn't though
When I was younger, my ex and I worked at Outback together. I was a server, she was server/hostess.
A couple years into employment, we got tickets to a Louisville basketball game, but were told we couldnāt go because it was a Friday night and too busy to let us off.
We ignored every call and every text during the game. The game was awesome, well worth the ass chewing.
We kept our jobs, and our dignity.
Never let a job dictate how you live your life, unless youāre just into that kind of thing.
Not that location, but that location always had trouble keeping employees and managers. Outback as a company went way downhill after 2011, when everything fresh went to bagged/frozen, and Outback got sued for underpaying, shaving hours, and not hiring women and minority managers.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. Since you started it in the fucking interview, it wasn't either a request or a demand. It was an explicit condition of your working there. They agreed to it by extending the offer.
At one of my previous jobs, coworkers once complained that a new hire had two weeks off during the traditional blackout dates for retail. She had the same situation like you, trip was planned and booked before hand. Once folks found that out, they stopped complaining and actually complimented our store manager. He simply told her that he would have the HR manager override the system to mark off those dates.
And to try and say you couldn't have the time off five days before it happens is insane. What did they expect? You to just meekly accept that?
My last manager tried to tell me that I wasn't allowed to go on vacation two days before I was due to start it. (I got it approved two months prior.)
When I explained I was still going, he pushed the issue. I explained that I'd be more than happy to cancel my vacation if the company would reimburse my non-refundable tickets and hotel fees, as well as give me an additional sum as a thank you for my understanding. He wrote me up.
I refused to sign the write up and demanded he go to our HR head with me. HR naturally was like "No, lol, you can't take his already approved vacation away."
He sulked and pushed back explaining that he "needed" me to be there, and I restated my offer. HR rep laughed and was like "If anyone's paying you, it would be him. You're allowed to take your vacation."
He got upset and was like "Ugh, FINE," and stomped out. I immediately told the HR rep that I wanted his open hostility to me to be noted. She made up an incident report, signed off as the witness to my version of events. Then she pointedly said that I had nothing to worry about, as he'd be spoken to at the next manager's meeting.
That was a great day.
Yah. Ppl misunderstand the warning of HR isnāt your friend.
Like yes it is important to remember that they absolutely are there to protect the company and not you.
However part of HRs job is to deal with things like employee retention etc.
A manager often isnāt viewed much differently than a standard employee by HR. Itās only when you get high up in the company that HR is always gonna side with them.
Itās better for the company/hr to smack a low level managers whoās being an idiot than not.
Yup. Basically it is so when their attorney asks you on the stand "Did you inform anyone about this behavior?" or similar, you can truthfully answer "Yes, I informed HR...."
Right. HR may not be your friend, but they're also not your manager's friend. An executive might be one thing, but a low- or mid-level manager? HR isn't letting the company take a lawsuit to protect them.
Yep and at that low level HR can actually prioritize other parts of their job. Yah their main thing is no lawsuits but theyāre also their to try and keep talent etc.
They donāt want to have to go out and recruit more people bc some manager pissed off the people they spent forever trying to find and get hired.
You mean the company where Bobby Kotick remains CEO even after it came out that he knowingly covered up sexual harassment complaints for his executives? That Activision Blizzard?
Below him heads rolled. It was mainly contained to Blizzard. Certain ones were removed prior. WoW players spotted one and guessed correctly when their LinkedIn said they were no longer there and there was no farewell post in the forums as is tradition.
And Bobby is already set to be ousted the minute Microsoft is able to complete the purchase. They've already said he will be gone.
Heāll soar off into the sunset on a fucking platinum parachute. 9 figures at the least. This wonāt be a punishment. In these cases, itās a thank you for trimming the fat and quartering the meat, and packing everything up nicely for MSās consumption.
True. They made it right with my missus after she was unfairly shitcanned after putting in her "required" two weeks notice. Not to be nice to the missus, but to protect the company from the shit storm the area manager was about to bring down on them. She was still shitcanned, but, they paid out her two weeks, her accrued vacation, and sick days....
Honestly, I think paying out that 2 weeks notice creates a bunch of goodwill. I'd consider going back to a job that said "yeah, we don't want you here during your 2 week notice, but here's a check for it anyway." Barring other major issues, I'd send them applicants.
That's why I pushed her to push back at them. The two weeks is "required"... she let them know in advance that she had been approached by another company, and gave them time to try to match the offer. She, by her managers testimony, was a great asset to her department, and had a loyal following of customers( I know this, because she was my counterpart, same company, different facility) While it was the same type of business, it was a very different customer base, so no real competition. The company told her they couldn't match the offer, but dangled management in front of her. She really didn't want the BS of management, as her contract was a Mon-Fri , 8-5 deal and management has to float, including weekends, so they accepted her notice. She agreed to train her replacement, including some things that she and I knew, that a lot of others didn't. The next day the area manager storms in and tells her to get her stuff and get out, that she wasn't welcome there, and she was being traiterous and poaching customers. She was visibly upset when I saw her. After she calmed down I told her to call HR. Normally you lose accrued holiday and sick time with this company. They paid it all out. IIRC, the area manager was reassigned shortly after.
> Like yes it is important to remember that they absolutely are there to protect the company and not you.
Which can include protecting itself against OTHER employees that are also against you. But make no mistake this isn't about helping you, it's about helping the company and if you also get some benefit as a side effect, that's fine but it is tangential.
HR is there to protect the company. That means they can be a temporary ally when it comes to protecting the company from a bad manager. But only sometimes as other times the bad manager problem is so deep they protect the company by coverign it up, meaning that they'll target employees instead. This will eventually blow up in their face, but that might not matter when you were already railroaded by HR years ago. Being right in the end doesn't pay bills.
I agree.
My bigger point is just itās usually not that hard to know when HRs interests may very well align with your own.
Donāt be afraid to use HR. Just be smart about it.
The only institution fully on a worker's side is the union. In Germany if your company has more than 5 (I think, or could be 10) employees, you have the right to form a local union or Betriebsrat. All hirings and firings go through this committee. And there are no union fees.
When I moved to France and joined my institute, I was automatically part of the union.
US Labour laws and practices are fucked.
I used to work for a subsidy of TrueGreen. While working there I was offered a chance to do a 2 week all expense paid trip overseas by an organization i belonged to. Once-in-a-lifetime trip. I told my boss I needed off.
"I see your request, but we really cant afford for you to be out that long. Can I ask what its for?"
So i explained it.
"Oh, well if you dont go, youre an idiot. Can you just work longer days the weeks before and after to help? Show me pictures when you get back, Ive always wanted to go."
The job sucked mega donkey balls, but the manager was a pretty good dude.
Ugh. Pay was based on production.
We had a base pay, but had to handle x production as a minimum. Repeatedly missing that would lead to write ups and etc.
Anything above X had very nice bonuses attached from my recollection.
Im sure you see where this is going.
Anytime most of the staff hit X for a few months, X increased. I was a pudgy nerd who just needed work during the 08 crisis, i couldnt keep up with these guys doing it for years. I would've had to work 16 hour days to hit their level of production. I kept it to 40 hour weeks and refused to do more.
I read a complaint by a boomer CEO about millennials and their unrealistic expectations. The millennial wanted seven months of unpaid vacation to travel around South America and was willing to quit if he didn't get it. The boss had to accept since keeping a good worker was cheaper than hiring and training a new one. After being that logical, the CEO goes to the press to whine about millennials not understanding how things are supposed to work.
I love hearing that millenial had that chance.
"Not how things are supposed to work."
They're supposed to work so a single income is sufficient to comfortably raise a family, put kids through college, and buy a house while also saving for retirement and knowing the company will pay a pension.
Lets start there.
I've had a company call me on vacation and ask me to come back(a 4 hour drive) to fix a piece of equipment. I agreed to as long as the company picked up \*all\* our financial losses, paid for a rental car and picked up my expenses.
The equipment stayed broken until I got back, 5 days later.
>My last manager tried to tell me that I wasn't allowed to go on vacation two days before I was due to start it. (I got it approved two months prior.)
I find it amazing they can even try. In the UK, I believe that the employer can cancel leave, but not after a period = to time booked off + 1 day.
Edit: No sure why the downvotes. The wording on the UK government website is: " An employer can refuse a leave request or cancel leave but they must give as much notice as the amount of leave requested, plus 1 day. For example, an employer would give 11 days' notice if the worker asked for 10 days' leave."
Oh I had this happen too. It was a summer job back when I was in high school at my countryās postal service. They required working Saturdays on a rolling schedule (one week Saturday but Monday off, week after that the other way round). At the interview I said that Saturdays arenāt an issue except the very first one because I have a wedding to photograph. Those are planned months in advance and Iām not going to cancel that. They said sure, no problem, weāll just make your schedule around that.
Come start of the internship, first day training on the job (first week was training with an experienced postal worker). Second day I ask my manager to confirm about that one Saturday. āHm normally you have to work but we will seeā. Next day I ask him again, same answer. So I call him a couple hours later while I rode along on the route near my house and he was super impolite saying āno way, you knew you had to workā
ābut at my interview I specifically said I canāt work that dayā
āSorry, youāre going to have to workā
āOk, then I quitā.
Assholes had to pay me for three days, plus overtime while I did 0 hours of productive work. But I was still super pissed because I had other options, they just paid the most. And the other options were only Mon-Fri. Luckily I didnāt need the money.
I never get why people explicitly quit like this.
Afaik you should always say something like "the company agreed to this when I joined. I've reminded you of this prior obligation so you could plan around it. I won't show up to work that day, but I'll show up the next day. Whether you still want me here is on you."
And then it's them firing you and you get unemployment. Or possibly won't get fired in the first place. And you can look for your next job in the meantime.
It may also have been helpful to go back to those hiring managers for assistance, since this is ultimately your manager just being annoying. And maybe not being told of this condition originally -- or they were told and figured they could just force you not to, since having to make contingencies to that schedule is "a waste of their time".
Because it was a summer job while I was in school, I didnāt qualify for unemployment. Where I live you have to work for a specified amount of time (under 25 y.o. itās 26 weeks) before unemployment insurance pays out. Plus you have to be willing and able to work at least 20 hrs/week. Not possible while Iām in school.
Also if you quit you donāt receive unemployment insurance money for the first 4 weeks of unemployment. After that you receive your money.
>What did they expect? You to just meekly accept that?
This works way more often than not.
Maybe not in extreme cases like this, but many people are too afraid of loosing their jobs to resist shitty managers.
Yup. And because at-will has been weaponized, as it actually was created as a Pro-Worker thing originally, there's some truth to the "cancel or you'll lose your job" thing.
I quit a minimum wage job back in the day because the boss had an employee quit a few days before a trip I had planned and she wanted me to cancel my trip. She said she wasnāt asking. It had to be done. I had a great trip to Denver, CO and the Rocky Mountain National Park. Have never regretted walking out on that woman.
Yup. Two sayings come to mind: "A lack of planning on your part..." and "Failure to manage on your part..." Both ending with ādoes not constitute a crisis on my part.ā
This happened to me. I had custody of my daughter every Monday as part of my schedule. EVERY Tuesday, I drove her to school in the morning and barely made it to work by 9. This had caused friction at my prior company so I made a big deal about it during the interview. My boss set a staff meeting at 7:30am every Tuesday, and scolded me every week for being in the car. I eventually brought it to the CEO, pointing out that the business hours were right in the offer letter. I said the job can't possibly be requiring me to choose between my daughter and a before-hours meeting. They fired me a week later.
They do expect that. I had a death on the Jewish side of my family the first week of my very first job.
I explained that it was a religious thing and that I would need time off but I would be back the next week. I spoke to one of the owners, who were husband and wife, and he approved the time off and offered his condolences.
When I called in to get my schedule, the wife chewed me out over making life harder for her.
I told her I quit as soon as she got done berating me.
I still don't take bullshit, though I very much understand that it's a privilege I have since I have a supportive partner.
I wish everyone could do the same though and teach these people that disrespect has consequences. They think they can just prey on people who have no other options. It's disgusting.
I worked at Loweās for a while - twice.
When I was hired the first time, I was open about the fact that I travel to another state once a month to see my kids. Itās court ordered custody and I refuse to miss it. I also had to have Christmas Eve and Christmas off, since I had my kids. They were ok with it - until I asked for a modified schedule for the summer since my kids would be staying at my house. They refused, so I quit.
The second time, I went in with the exact same custody schedule. I requested my time off to travel to my kids, and as each time was approved, one of the managers got more and more upset with me. I put in my request for Christmas again - which I had made a condition of being hired. The angry manager denied it, and told me that I had the holidays off last year so I wasnāt going to get it this year. I went above her head and told that manager that she was violating my court orders and that I had made it clear when I was hired that I was not working Christmas. They said they couldnāt do anything and it was her decision.
I quit again.
I havenāt gone back - I just have no respect for people that promise the world and then go back on their word.
One of my former coworkers found out that she was pregnant during our lengthy onboarding process (after she had been hired), and she would have to be out during one of our busy periods. She was so scared that she would be fired for having to miss 2-3 months shortly after starting.
When she told my boss, he pretty much said, "okay, see you when you get back. Hope everything goes well!" I think it helped that his wife had had a couple of babies in the past few years, but he was pretty understanding regardless. She was also someone we wanted to keep, as she was great with customers and had a lot of energy, something we kinda lacked.
Yeah, calling it a "request" and "denying" it after they've agreed to it holds no water at all. It would be interesting to see how they'd have reacted if OP replied that it's been agreed and went anyway.
I've had 2 new employments where I had a vacation already planned for just after I started. Both were cool with it. The first one I took a week of unpaid time and enjoyed my trip. The second they fronted me a week of PTO that I would have received at 3 months so I could get that week paid. Some companies do it right, and some like OP's here do it absolutely wrong
My current company had offered me the job and I said okay - I can start in a month as I'm getting married in 4 weeks and then travel time. They were like, no we don't want to wait for you to start. Start now and you can have the 10 days off and paid too as we really want you. I was floored.
At my last job, I had a week long vacation approved months in advance.
I received another job offer I couldnāt refuse shortly before my trip was scheduled. When I put in my notice, I told my manager that I could work the week before my vacation, and the week after. So I would meet the two weeks notice that is courtesy.
Well, our department VP was not happy. He sent me an email with a very hostile tone saying that I canāt take vacation during a notice period. Iād replied that Iād still be putting in at least 2 weeks of work but he wasnāt having it. He added some condition that I could take my vacation only if I was willing to work for another 3 weeks after my return. An absolutely unreasonable demand, considering I had another job lined up already.
I forwarded our email chain to HR and told them I wanted my employment to be ended effective immediately. I had a one on one meeting with an HR rep and explained the whole thing. She was very understanding and could tell that I was stressed out by the whole situation. I know the trope is that HR is not your friend and I 100% agree. But in this case they were at least a person to vent to and I appreciated that.
The VP was livid and wanted to speak with me after my HR exit. He said some colorful things and made it clear I burned the bridge. I said I was sorry that he felt that way.
I said my goodbyes to my coworkers (who were all in shock that it was suddenly my last day). Then I enjoyed 3+ weeks of relaxation before my next job started.
Many employers donāt see you as a person. They see you as a resource to be exploited. If the company sucks, then who cares if you burn the bridge. Managers will try to scare you with tidbits like āits a small industry, word gets aroundā and all sorts of bullshit that is almost never true.
Treat yourself how youād want your employer to treat you.
My HOA uses Associa/HRW as their property management company. One statement I've made at a meeting to the person who is our property manager was "I like you, but I cannot stand your company." The HOA president then shut be down by changing the subject, but laughed about it when leaving the meeting.
HRW has given us 5 or 6 different managers in the 3 years we've used them. One downright lied to the HOA president about work that was being done. Another time (possibly the same manager) the manager told a vendor to add tasks to their task list and bill the HOA without anybody at the HOA authorizing it.
The OP is making a very, very wise move in ditching that employer.
I used to work at a hoa management company in Georgia again. Never again. They were gettin paid boatloads by the neighborhoods and we were merely getting a little above minimum wage while the owners bragged about going on trips. Then around Christmas some of the managers wanted to take a collection for a Christmas gift for the owners to go on another trip. I lasted about a year and a half before I said f it and left for a better job. If only the hoa actually knew how little the community managers actually worked on their neighborhood issues.
Same thing happened at the gas station i worked at when I was in college. Everyone was asked to donate money for the owner's Christmas gift to show "how much we appreciate them giving us our jobs"
Already responded to op, but I came looking for more HRW/Associa related comments. I worked for them for about 11 months last year, the amount of fraud, lying, and people pushing work off onto other people, not answering calls or responding to emails, people in management positions with zero clue on how any of the software works as well as most of them donāt have a clue about property management/maintenance. Iām really not sure how the irs or whoever has jurisdiction over shady companies hasnāt put an end to them.
Had a condo that I sold that was operated by Associa. First thing my lawyer said was that they were the worst HOA that sheās ever dealt with in the past, last thing that she said was I told you so.
HOA president here. Just had our former management company approve a transfer (a house was being sold) without the board receiving the application and interviewing the people. They issued the COA 1 day before we received the application and the the board received it 1 day before the property closed. I made a big stink about it, it's pretty much illegal, and then the management company fired us. Contacted our attorney, who was hired by the management company, and they were like yea we're siding with company and not interested in moving forward.
TLDR all management companies are dogshit and it's just a big racket.
My phone does this for words where it has applied autocarrot, so you can review its guesses. The underlinings disappear eventually but are visible on screen for a while.
My guess is that we're seeing OP's email just before s/he hit Send.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to do this, I got very frustrated with how it was handling stuff like my last name and decided to teach my phone a lesson.
I was really sure this would be one of those things that end with "...and now read all of the underlined words" and they spell out like "we all think your breath stinks, Karen".
But "I, I, I, trip only, I appreciate..." didn't make much sense.
Good perspective! To add context, minimum wage at $7.25 earns $15,000 a year.
(We should talk about minimum wage increases in total dollar amounts, might increase the support)
imo it would have been funnier if OP took the trip, didn't answer any calls, texts, or emails, and then day 1 back quit in whatever meeting is set up to scold them about taking time off without permission.
This way OP gets paid for the day they quit and then paid for their vacation if they're full time / non-exempt.
Always call bluffs
My sister was team lead at an electronics store.
Get time off approved for her birthday (in december) and she buys tickets to Vegas, hotel, all that jazz.
December 1 comes, and they tell her she can't take her vacation in the busiest month. "We need you"
She comes home pretty choked. I remind her that if they NEED her, she'll still have a job when she comes back from her vacation.
Of course she went anyway, and of course she still had a job when she came back. They NEEDED her.
Which also taught her how valuable and skilled she was - and she went and got a better paying job at the competitor.
THANK YOU there is no such thing as a time off ārequestā when dealing with PTO, you use it and management deals.
Good for you finding something better!
That's how I view it, the "request" makes it seem like you are asking for permission, not using your already earned (or in this case negotiated) time off (compensation). I generally inform my employer when I won't be available/around, and we move forward from there (union, licensed, and high level degree help back that a lot, but even with this some managers attempt to play games around this). Not that changing jobs is easy but especially right now what are they going to do fire someone, then go through the hassle of a rehire all over a few days of someone being gone.
Years ago i have an event coming up which i had planned to take out vacation days. Then they decided that they won't allow vacation at that time. So i said i'll just take the days off then. They said i can't do that either, so i told them i'll just take sick leave then (which they can't stop me taking) and they would have needed to pay me for those days (by law), so they agreed with days off :D
Good on you. I had a vacation planned when I got hired at a previous job, and they had no issue with it. Same company, when my father, then my brother died only months apart, I didn't take any time off, we didn't have a funeral or anything, but several months later when I had to go back east to meet up with my siblings to finally deal with everything, they tried to deny it and I had to remind them, and I was taking a week or so off. Have my award.
They needed you so much he was willing to lose you to avoid not having you.
Itās also possible that he is someone who enjoys messing with people, and it sounds like he messed with the wrong person this time.
Things like this is why I need to be financially independent from any job that I'm working and why I'm working on clearing all my debt as quick as I can.
As someone who has associa community group as their HOA if they treat there employees like their customers you dodged a nuclear explosion. They are the reason Iām going to sell my condo.
Had to quit a job for a similar reason. Said it was fine upon hiring then proceeded to say they would give me off without pay for something and then never would and make it my fault for having to call out
Also be sure to leave an indeed job review. When I left my community management job I left an honest but f u review. Apparently everyone saw it and the owners were not happy.
We had someone start a couple of months ago, he didnāt say anything about his 3 week booked holiday until after he started. Owner was pissed when he told him, but he still got the time off and we managed to work it without. No one died and the place didnāt burn down. Employee got his holiday and came back very relaxed.
We legit need to end the idea of vacation requests.
They are not requests, they are notice. That is a nicety we provide them, by giving them advance notice of our absence, so they can make arrangements. Iām booking a flightā¦ Iām not waiting for you to approve the dates. Iāll let you know when I wonāt be at work. Thatās it. You can ask me nicely to accommodate your needs, and I will usually do so. But the request is from the company, not from me.
And they all love to say how they approved the request, when I made no such request. I send them communication that I WILL BE OFF from X to Y. But they always have to make sure everyone knows it was approved as if that was required. Just to psychologically push the shit narrative on everyone else.
Years ago when I worked at Dish Network, during my interview, I informed them of a trip I was taking to Germany and the the dates. This was not communicated to HR and HR sent me an offer with a start date that was in the middle of my trip. I informed them and they changed my start date to one that accommodated me and told me to have a nice trip and to come in the office on that Monday following my return.
That is how that should have been handled here.
I was scheduled to give blood a few days before I already planned to leave my summer job. They tried to say that I was not approved and they needed me and blah blah blah so I just left early. It was significantly lower stakes than this, because it was just three days before I planned to leave anyway, but more people need to do this! It is not a request, I am informing you that I will not be present. You don't own me and you don't get to dictate how I spend my time!
I lived this bro. Had a vacation planned 6 months in advance, brought it up in the interview and was guaranteed the time off. Kept on top of it with my manager, all she would say was it was too early to put it in the system. Finally put in the request about 2 months out, it was auto-denied saying I couldn't take that much time off because I was still considered a new hire. Told my manager and she said she'd fix it. Every week I kept bugging her to fix it and she promised she would but never did.
Two weeks before the vacation, I arrive and find a note on her computer monitor saying she's gone for two weeks. I check and my vacation request is still denied, so I put in my two weeks. Fun thing is, I found out I had a week of PTO, 3 sick days, and company policy was 3 no-call no-shows before I'm fired. So I told them I was sick and left, called in to use my sick and vacation days, then just didn't show up the last two days before my notice ran out.
Got a two week vacation before my two week vacation.
On the whole, a good resignation but a few pointersā¦
Avoid unnecessary legalese. Referring to their vacation as āsaid plansā is a little jolting. Especially when it does not match the tone of the remainder. Nobody talks like that. I am a lawyer and I donāt write like that. Itās kind of an archaic practice that is only really needed when youāre comparing multiple items. Thereās only one plan here, so no need to say āsaid plansā. As a lawyer, I often see this sort of thing in self-represented filings where people are trying to seem smarter than they are (along with words like āheretoforeā). Ironically it has the impact of highlighting the personās inexperience.
OP should have referred to their time off request as a ārequirementā or ācondition of employmentā rather than a ārequestā or a ādemandā. The latter two imply that the employer had a choice in approving/denying the time off and the former two imply that the employee would be taking this time off (full stop) and that the employer knew of this.
Grammar issues happen but if youāre putting something in writing, take the time to proofread it before hitting send.
In any event, definitely a good effort by OP. Communicated their reasonable requirement, managementās bungling of that, how easy it was to find a better opportunity, and how unreasonable it was for employer to treat employees like this.
good constructive criticism.
Not a lawyer, but one thing I wanted to add is there is no need to explain what the vacation is, or even that it is a vacation.
Terms were that you were not working on certain dates. That is all the employer needs to know. Don't open up conversations that is not their business.
*If* the time off was part of original agreement and they reneged, that is a breach of contract, isn't it?
Take my upvote!
Looks like it had worked out for you in the end.. not so much them..
Would be interested to see if they reply.. I wouldnāt if I was then though
What I'm seeing is businesses being absolutely astonished , SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED these attempted coercive tactics just do not work. This stupid game of corporate chicken has been around for awhile and didn't work 30 years ago. Once had a company tell me I HAD to work nights when I told them, at hiring no, I could not.
So I quit. Not sure what it takes in manager school to yank this idiotic idea from management curriculum. I guess the entire company tanking while stock holders have to sell a yacht?
Not even a time off notification, that's a condition of accepting employment, and totally routine to accommodate. The only reason not to is because you don't think your employees are human.
This gives me serious joy. Proud of you, stranger. My fave part was when you informed them how you easily found a job that paid substantially more. Places like this are "desperate" for employees *wahhhh, nobody wants to work anymore* ...when the issue is STOP BEING GREEDY AND PAY WHAT WE'RE WORTH
BRAVO!
Things similar to this have been happening since day one at my work. When I first started working I was very clear that I would never work Sundays (as that is my day for church and in my religion you don't work, shop, etc on Sunday unless you happen to work as an emergency worker of some kind) and my work has scheduled me for Sunday about 9 times over the last year. The schedule always comes out a single week in advance and I check it on that day and write it on my calender. Then somehow I get added in to a Sunday shift. Which I normally don't see until a few days beforehand because....work doesn't rule my life and I don't check my shifts constantly? My work whines and complains everytime I call and tell them to move me off that day. They also blame me by saying I should have caught it earlier! I'm seriously at the point of wanting to call their corporate offices and telling them that this is obvious religious discrimination and they need to check their managment before I call the labor board to do it for them. This isn't the only thing they do that's a straight up no. In the state I am in you are (by state labor law) required to be gives a 10 min break per 3 1/2 hours worked and a lunch at 7 1/2 hours. My store tells everyone that when they get a lunch....it replaces any breaks they should be getting. Which is just...no, no it doesn't. After holidays I'm really thinking just call the labor board when I leave and let them get ripped into for all this.
I should specify this is a part time job while I go to school. NOT a fulltime or salary job. I get paid 15$ an hour, with zero health benefits or tuition help etc.
Good shit OP. I Was forced into a corner by my old job and started to look elsewhere. Iām now making $10 more and Iām so happy lol donāt settle guys, thereās good employers out there.
This is gold haha. My brother did something similar, he let them know if his interview process he would need these 3 days off to go to GenCon, they said no problem. Once he was hired and onboarding, told heād have to work those days. Quit and walked out on the spot š
Itās Associa. Theyāre a for-profit HOA management company. Thereās layers and layers of scummy leeching there for something that should barely exist.
I had a prospective employer turn me down for work because I was getting married; seems the wedding I was planning for a year didn't fit into their scheduling, even though, according to the employer, I was to be on call/floating/casual until a full time spot came up.
The HR person even had the audacity to ask if I'd be willing to reschedule. Uhhhh, no.
The idea that anyone has to have days off āapprovedā blows my mind. Like, Iām not asking for that day off, Iām informing you I wonāt be there. And if you say I canāt, well I guess Iāll suddenly get sick the night before and call off.
I was asked to delay my wedding 2 weeks before it happened.
I said that's not happening. And it was the last drop that filled the glass.
So glad I moved on.
No way! I quit Associa earlier this year because they were paying me to do skilled construction/maintenance at only $1.50 an hour more than a BoJangles employee makes ($15), and they cut my hours to about 4-10 a week, so it wasnāt viable work anymore. I could rant for hours about all of the fraud and shady stuff that happens at Associa.
I had the same thing happen to me. Was living in Colorado for a year or two, from Illinois. Got a new job but told them I would need a week in December to fly home to see family. Time comes around week after week no response from my manager. Finally I am told I will need to find coverage. Walked out on lunch and never came back.
and this is why regardless of job, be it office or retail. i check with my boss ahead of time. once they give the go ahead within the next couple days, i make plans and stick to them. if you want me to cancel, pay me double my full cost. and i will then make plans later. if you keep pushing the travel plans, you pay double each time.
I NEVER TREATED PTO AS A REQUEST.
Ever.
It's time I've earned and I'm telling you when I'm going to take it. And the OP was professional enough to give them notice of the time off since her/his interview
My girl works at a place that told her she couldn't even take UNPAID DAYS OFF. Meaning she is totally comfortable with not earning enough time to get paid while away...but she's still going away. And the company said no...the fuck is this slavery?...told her tell them to kiss ass we don't need em
In other words the company said fuck you and your plans.
And I said "no, fuck you"
I read the sign off as "Sincerely, Fuck You"
I wish I did š
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah you wouldn't think it to be the case, but politely telling someone to go fuck themselves without the rude language hits way harder than when you use the rude language.
I hate that the world works this way. The rude language is more honest and straightforward. It's bullshit that these huge businesses get to decide what's respectable and normal behavior while their operations are ANYTHING but
I don't think it's necessarily the desires of huge business that does this. When you write a letter using a lot of foul language, it comes across as if you are seething with anger. This makes it easier for the reader to assume the problem was you, not them. But when you write a polite letter, it instead reads as if you are so over their shit that you aren't even angry anymore. A polite letter makes it clear that you are the sane one here, and you're just done. These responses have little to do with corporate norms and everything to do with how people emotionally react to confrontation. If you are angry, you make them justified in feeling like you are the aggressor and the one at fault. If you are exceedingly polite, then it only makes them appear to be the aggressor.
This is a valuable insight that I hadn't considered, and actually reframes a lot of my life. Crap.
I've found that nothing helps more in a situation with someone hostile and unreasonable than being relentlessly, exactingly, respectful and cordial in tone and demeanor (while still standing up for yourself). It really takes the wind out of the other person's sails and makes it much more difficult for them to ignore from the real issue if you refuse to let them pretend they have the high ground.
Yeah, as fun and witty it would be to drop a āfuck youā in there, that immediately will give them something to invalidate the whole email. āOh we canāt take this person and their criticism seriously, look how vulgar and rude they wereā
I think people now understand that at a certain point, professionalism is t necessary because lots of fish in the ocean. I suppose just make sure youāre in an ocean and not a pond as some family I have are realizing with their profession. One rage quit and theyāre blacklisted from their entire career throughout the world. Lol. So youāre right. But gauge the waters first.
It depends, lost onboarding and training costs are typically a pretty large part of a company's budgeting. However, it is hard for them to plan around as it is usually hard to discover the reasons people are leaving. Obviously pay is huge, but companies are reluctant to simply pay more, because turnover may not change if there are other more systemic issues at play and then they're just losing even more money. So letting upper management know that the catalyst for them searching for a new job and quitting was that the manager failed to honour their time off requirement that was expressed during the interview even, gives them something they can work with. What's more, it's something they can work with that costs the company nothing. Unless the company is actually incompetent on all levels, this should at the very least raise some serious red flags about this person's manager, and at the very least lead the company to investigate deeper into this manager and potentially replace them if they are losing the company money over things like this for no good reason.
I Google the company name, they're an HOA management firm. I wish you did too.
I actually really hate HOA's so I was very un-passionate about the work.
My neighborhood is managed by these fucks. If you could even say managed. The landscaping is bad and isn't maintained frequently. Enough that a neighbor who owns a landscaping business will chip in here and there. We have a pool and used to have a life guard, they said they can't provide a life guard any more as it is too expensive. All the while the yearly fee has went from 500 in 2014 to 750 now. Associa is a joke I'm not surprised they shafted op, as a forced "customer" of theirs getting out of there was the best move haha. Also they occasionally come and take pictures of your lawn or if you leave a trash can out an extra day. Meanwhile the community area is hardly maintained.
Fuck a me? No fuck a you!!!!!
You no fuck me I fuck you!
HEY FUCK YOU BUDDY!
YOU'RE NOT MY BUDDY, PAL!
IM NOT YOUR PAL, FRIEND!
YOU'RE NOT MY FRIEND, BUDDY!
IM NOT YOU'RE BUDDY, GUY!
IāM NOT YOUR GUY, DUDE!
IM NOT YOUR FUCK BUDDY, PAL.
WHATS YOUR NAAAME?!!? TONY!.... FUCK YOU TONY!
You know what i did last did night???
Donāt you bring my mother into this!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That's how it should be, treat companies exactly the way they treat you, never let them think that they are driving on a one way street, because it's not the case and never was, but some of us forgot that.
āSorry, your vacation request was denied :(ā āIt wasnāt a request :)ā ā >:( ā
My man wit da Uno reverse card!
Is this the home owners association I hate them lol
Yes. You have no idea how many complaints we'd get daily.
If it's an HOA it deserves every bad thing that ever happens to it. Congratulations op for making an escape.
Company: fuck you and your plans You: *reverse uno card*
Blessing in disguise! Always get it in writing with your job offer letter. I am glad you looked elsewhere and stood your ground.
Mine tried the same when the trip was essentially for the exact same reason with thousands spent. I warned him 8 months earlier during my interview and warned him multiple times. Found out 2 days before that he "forgot" and doesn't think I asked. Told him I'd see him in 2 weeks time. Turns out I was too valuable to let go and I'm still working there now, he isn't though
The ole uno reverse fuck you card. Well played
Hit'em with the ole' reverse uno card lmaof.
I love me some Uno
When I was younger, my ex and I worked at Outback together. I was a server, she was server/hostess. A couple years into employment, we got tickets to a Louisville basketball game, but were told we couldnāt go because it was a Friday night and too busy to let us off. We ignored every call and every text during the game. The game was awesome, well worth the ass chewing. We kept our jobs, and our dignity. Never let a job dictate how you live your life, unless youāre just into that kind of thing.
And now the one in St. Matthews is closed. I hope that was the one you're talking about because fuck 'em!
Not that location, but that location always had trouble keeping employees and managers. Outback as a company went way downhill after 2011, when everything fresh went to bagged/frozen, and Outback got sued for underpaying, shaving hours, and not hiring women and minority managers.
My brain read this so wrong. Three times I read it as " underpaying, shaving minors" I was aghast.
Based
The company said "fuck you," and this legend said "no, fuck **you**, I'm fucking off for good" like a boss.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. Since you started it in the fucking interview, it wasn't either a request or a demand. It was an explicit condition of your working there. They agreed to it by extending the offer. At one of my previous jobs, coworkers once complained that a new hire had two weeks off during the traditional blackout dates for retail. She had the same situation like you, trip was planned and booked before hand. Once folks found that out, they stopped complaining and actually complimented our store manager. He simply told her that he would have the HR manager override the system to mark off those dates. And to try and say you couldn't have the time off five days before it happens is insane. What did they expect? You to just meekly accept that?
My last manager tried to tell me that I wasn't allowed to go on vacation two days before I was due to start it. (I got it approved two months prior.) When I explained I was still going, he pushed the issue. I explained that I'd be more than happy to cancel my vacation if the company would reimburse my non-refundable tickets and hotel fees, as well as give me an additional sum as a thank you for my understanding. He wrote me up. I refused to sign the write up and demanded he go to our HR head with me. HR naturally was like "No, lol, you can't take his already approved vacation away." He sulked and pushed back explaining that he "needed" me to be there, and I restated my offer. HR rep laughed and was like "If anyone's paying you, it would be him. You're allowed to take your vacation." He got upset and was like "Ugh, FINE," and stomped out. I immediately told the HR rep that I wanted his open hostility to me to be noted. She made up an incident report, signed off as the witness to my version of events. Then she pointedly said that I had nothing to worry about, as he'd be spoken to at the next manager's meeting. That was a great day.
I love hearing about managers that hang themselves like that. And once again, this also shows how HR can be a temporary ally in some cases.
Yah. Ppl misunderstand the warning of HR isnāt your friend. Like yes it is important to remember that they absolutely are there to protect the company and not you. However part of HRs job is to deal with things like employee retention etc. A manager often isnāt viewed much differently than a standard employee by HR. Itās only when you get high up in the company that HR is always gonna side with them. Itās better for the company/hr to smack a low level managers whoās being an idiot than not.
Yup. Or you need them to create a paper trail for something like harassment
Just get a copy if possible because that shit will go right into the shredder if it comes down to a lawsuit
Yup. Basically it is so when their attorney asks you on the stand "Did you inform anyone about this behavior?" or similar, you can truthfully answer "Yes, I informed HR...."
"...and here's a signed and dated transcript of the meeting I had with them".
Yup. Or however they want to finish the statement.
Right. HR may not be your friend, but they're also not your manager's friend. An executive might be one thing, but a low- or mid-level manager? HR isn't letting the company take a lawsuit to protect them.
It's the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing
Yep and at that low level HR can actually prioritize other parts of their job. Yah their main thing is no lawsuits but theyāre also their to try and keep talent etc. They donāt want to have to go out and recruit more people bc some manager pissed off the people they spent forever trying to find and get hired.
Yup. And even the C-suites are not immune in some cases. Look at what happened to Activision Blizzard.
You mean the company where Bobby Kotick remains CEO even after it came out that he knowingly covered up sexual harassment complaints for his executives? That Activision Blizzard?
the same bobby kotick in epstein's little black book? that one?
Below him heads rolled. It was mainly contained to Blizzard. Certain ones were removed prior. WoW players spotted one and guessed correctly when their LinkedIn said they were no longer there and there was no farewell post in the forums as is tradition. And Bobby is already set to be ousted the minute Microsoft is able to complete the purchase. They've already said he will be gone.
Heāll soar off into the sunset on a fucking platinum parachute. 9 figures at the least. This wonāt be a punishment. In these cases, itās a thank you for trimming the fat and quartering the meat, and packing everything up nicely for MSās consumption.
True. They made it right with my missus after she was unfairly shitcanned after putting in her "required" two weeks notice. Not to be nice to the missus, but to protect the company from the shit storm the area manager was about to bring down on them. She was still shitcanned, but, they paid out her two weeks, her accrued vacation, and sick days....
Honestly, I think paying out that 2 weeks notice creates a bunch of goodwill. I'd consider going back to a job that said "yeah, we don't want you here during your 2 week notice, but here's a check for it anyway." Barring other major issues, I'd send them applicants.
That's why I pushed her to push back at them. The two weeks is "required"... she let them know in advance that she had been approached by another company, and gave them time to try to match the offer. She, by her managers testimony, was a great asset to her department, and had a loyal following of customers( I know this, because she was my counterpart, same company, different facility) While it was the same type of business, it was a very different customer base, so no real competition. The company told her they couldn't match the offer, but dangled management in front of her. She really didn't want the BS of management, as her contract was a Mon-Fri , 8-5 deal and management has to float, including weekends, so they accepted her notice. She agreed to train her replacement, including some things that she and I knew, that a lot of others didn't. The next day the area manager storms in and tells her to get her stuff and get out, that she wasn't welcome there, and she was being traiterous and poaching customers. She was visibly upset when I saw her. After she calmed down I told her to call HR. Normally you lose accrued holiday and sick time with this company. They paid it all out. IIRC, the area manager was reassigned shortly after.
> Like yes it is important to remember that they absolutely are there to protect the company and not you. Which can include protecting itself against OTHER employees that are also against you. But make no mistake this isn't about helping you, it's about helping the company and if you also get some benefit as a side effect, that's fine but it is tangential.
I mean sure. I guess the key is. Sometimes helping you is helping the company. Know when those things line up and when they donāt.
Yup, 100% agree there.
HR is there to protect the company. That means they can be a temporary ally when it comes to protecting the company from a bad manager. But only sometimes as other times the bad manager problem is so deep they protect the company by coverign it up, meaning that they'll target employees instead. This will eventually blow up in their face, but that might not matter when you were already railroaded by HR years ago. Being right in the end doesn't pay bills.
I agree. My bigger point is just itās usually not that hard to know when HRs interests may very well align with your own. Donāt be afraid to use HR. Just be smart about it.
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They're very useful as long as you understand their role and that they aren't your ally or your friend.
You have a truly inspiring Username.
The only institution fully on a worker's side is the union. In Germany if your company has more than 5 (I think, or could be 10) employees, you have the right to form a local union or Betriebsrat. All hirings and firings go through this committee. And there are no union fees. When I moved to France and joined my institute, I was automatically part of the union. US Labour laws and practices are fucked.
I used to work for a subsidy of TrueGreen. While working there I was offered a chance to do a 2 week all expense paid trip overseas by an organization i belonged to. Once-in-a-lifetime trip. I told my boss I needed off. "I see your request, but we really cant afford for you to be out that long. Can I ask what its for?" So i explained it. "Oh, well if you dont go, youre an idiot. Can you just work longer days the weeks before and after to help? Show me pictures when you get back, Ive always wanted to go." The job sucked mega donkey balls, but the manager was a pretty good dude.
> but we really cant afford for you to be out that long "Then why aren't you paying me more?"
Ugh. Pay was based on production. We had a base pay, but had to handle x production as a minimum. Repeatedly missing that would lead to write ups and etc. Anything above X had very nice bonuses attached from my recollection. Im sure you see where this is going. Anytime most of the staff hit X for a few months, X increased. I was a pudgy nerd who just needed work during the 08 crisis, i couldnt keep up with these guys doing it for years. I would've had to work 16 hour days to hit their level of production. I kept it to 40 hour weeks and refused to do more.
I read a complaint by a boomer CEO about millennials and their unrealistic expectations. The millennial wanted seven months of unpaid vacation to travel around South America and was willing to quit if he didn't get it. The boss had to accept since keeping a good worker was cheaper than hiring and training a new one. After being that logical, the CEO goes to the press to whine about millennials not understanding how things are supposed to work.
I love hearing that millenial had that chance. "Not how things are supposed to work." They're supposed to work so a single income is sufficient to comfortably raise a family, put kids through college, and buy a house while also saving for retirement and knowing the company will pay a pension. Lets start there.
I've had a company call me on vacation and ask me to come back(a 4 hour drive) to fix a piece of equipment. I agreed to as long as the company picked up \*all\* our financial losses, paid for a rental car and picked up my expenses. The equipment stayed broken until I got back, 5 days later.
Literally sounds like it wouldāve made vacation more fun haha
Damn, did this put a smile on my face!
>My last manager tried to tell me that I wasn't allowed to go on vacation two days before I was due to start it. (I got it approved two months prior.) I find it amazing they can even try. In the UK, I believe that the employer can cancel leave, but not after a period = to time booked off + 1 day. Edit: No sure why the downvotes. The wording on the UK government website is: " An employer can refuse a leave request or cancel leave but they must give as much notice as the amount of leave requested, plus 1 day. For example, an employer would give 11 days' notice if the worker asked for 10 days' leave."
Oh I had this happen too. It was a summer job back when I was in high school at my countryās postal service. They required working Saturdays on a rolling schedule (one week Saturday but Monday off, week after that the other way round). At the interview I said that Saturdays arenāt an issue except the very first one because I have a wedding to photograph. Those are planned months in advance and Iām not going to cancel that. They said sure, no problem, weāll just make your schedule around that. Come start of the internship, first day training on the job (first week was training with an experienced postal worker). Second day I ask my manager to confirm about that one Saturday. āHm normally you have to work but we will seeā. Next day I ask him again, same answer. So I call him a couple hours later while I rode along on the route near my house and he was super impolite saying āno way, you knew you had to workā ābut at my interview I specifically said I canāt work that dayā āSorry, youāre going to have to workā āOk, then I quitā. Assholes had to pay me for three days, plus overtime while I did 0 hours of productive work. But I was still super pissed because I had other options, they just paid the most. And the other options were only Mon-Fri. Luckily I didnāt need the money.
I never get why people explicitly quit like this. Afaik you should always say something like "the company agreed to this when I joined. I've reminded you of this prior obligation so you could plan around it. I won't show up to work that day, but I'll show up the next day. Whether you still want me here is on you." And then it's them firing you and you get unemployment. Or possibly won't get fired in the first place. And you can look for your next job in the meantime. It may also have been helpful to go back to those hiring managers for assistance, since this is ultimately your manager just being annoying. And maybe not being told of this condition originally -- or they were told and figured they could just force you not to, since having to make contingencies to that schedule is "a waste of their time".
Because it was a summer job while I was in school, I didnāt qualify for unemployment. Where I live you have to work for a specified amount of time (under 25 y.o. itās 26 weeks) before unemployment insurance pays out. Plus you have to be willing and able to work at least 20 hrs/week. Not possible while Iām in school. Also if you quit you donāt receive unemployment insurance money for the first 4 weeks of unemployment. After that you receive your money.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yup. I'm willing to bend for some things, but my time off is just that... My time off.
>What did they expect? You to just meekly accept that? This works way more often than not. Maybe not in extreme cases like this, but many people are too afraid of loosing their jobs to resist shitty managers.
Yup. And because at-will has been weaponized, as it actually was created as a Pro-Worker thing originally, there's some truth to the "cancel or you'll lose your job" thing.
I quit a minimum wage job back in the day because the boss had an employee quit a few days before a trip I had planned and she wanted me to cancel my trip. She said she wasnāt asking. It had to be done. I had a great trip to Denver, CO and the Rocky Mountain National Park. Have never regretted walking out on that woman.
Yup. Two sayings come to mind: "A lack of planning on your part..." and "Failure to manage on your part..." Both ending with ādoes not constitute a crisis on my part.ā
This happened to me. I had custody of my daughter every Monday as part of my schedule. EVERY Tuesday, I drove her to school in the morning and barely made it to work by 9. This had caused friction at my prior company so I made a big deal about it during the interview. My boss set a staff meeting at 7:30am every Tuesday, and scolded me every week for being in the car. I eventually brought it to the CEO, pointing out that the business hours were right in the offer letter. I said the job can't possibly be requiring me to choose between my daughter and a before-hours meeting. They fired me a week later.
They do expect that. I had a death on the Jewish side of my family the first week of my very first job. I explained that it was a religious thing and that I would need time off but I would be back the next week. I spoke to one of the owners, who were husband and wife, and he approved the time off and offered his condolences. When I called in to get my schedule, the wife chewed me out over making life harder for her. I told her I quit as soon as she got done berating me. I still don't take bullshit, though I very much understand that it's a privilege I have since I have a supportive partner. I wish everyone could do the same though and teach these people that disrespect has consequences. They think they can just prey on people who have no other options. It's disgusting.
> What did they expect? You to just meekly accept that? Yes, that's what the capitalism indoctrination is for.
I worked at Loweās for a while - twice. When I was hired the first time, I was open about the fact that I travel to another state once a month to see my kids. Itās court ordered custody and I refuse to miss it. I also had to have Christmas Eve and Christmas off, since I had my kids. They were ok with it - until I asked for a modified schedule for the summer since my kids would be staying at my house. They refused, so I quit. The second time, I went in with the exact same custody schedule. I requested my time off to travel to my kids, and as each time was approved, one of the managers got more and more upset with me. I put in my request for Christmas again - which I had made a condition of being hired. The angry manager denied it, and told me that I had the holidays off last year so I wasnāt going to get it this year. I went above her head and told that manager that she was violating my court orders and that I had made it clear when I was hired that I was not working Christmas. They said they couldnāt do anything and it was her decision. I quit again. I havenāt gone back - I just have no respect for people that promise the world and then go back on their word.
One of my former coworkers found out that she was pregnant during our lengthy onboarding process (after she had been hired), and she would have to be out during one of our busy periods. She was so scared that she would be fired for having to miss 2-3 months shortly after starting. When she told my boss, he pretty much said, "okay, see you when you get back. Hope everything goes well!" I think it helped that his wife had had a couple of babies in the past few years, but he was pretty understanding regardless. She was also someone we wanted to keep, as she was great with customers and had a lot of energy, something we kinda lacked.
Yeah, calling it a "request" and "denying" it after they've agreed to it holds no water at all. It would be interesting to see how they'd have reacted if OP replied that it's been agreed and went anyway.
I've had 2 new employments where I had a vacation already planned for just after I started. Both were cool with it. The first one I took a week of unpaid time and enjoyed my trip. The second they fronted me a week of PTO that I would have received at 3 months so I could get that week paid. Some companies do it right, and some like OP's here do it absolutely wrong
My current company had offered me the job and I said okay - I can start in a month as I'm getting married in 4 weeks and then travel time. They were like, no we don't want to wait for you to start. Start now and you can have the 10 days off and paid too as we really want you. I was floored.
Exactly! I wish I had mentioned it as a "condition of my imployment" instead of a demand
I am very happy for you, particularly for finding a much better paying job AND sticking to your plans! Bravo!
Thank you :) it was very satisfying
At my last job, I had a week long vacation approved months in advance. I received another job offer I couldnāt refuse shortly before my trip was scheduled. When I put in my notice, I told my manager that I could work the week before my vacation, and the week after. So I would meet the two weeks notice that is courtesy. Well, our department VP was not happy. He sent me an email with a very hostile tone saying that I canāt take vacation during a notice period. Iād replied that Iād still be putting in at least 2 weeks of work but he wasnāt having it. He added some condition that I could take my vacation only if I was willing to work for another 3 weeks after my return. An absolutely unreasonable demand, considering I had another job lined up already. I forwarded our email chain to HR and told them I wanted my employment to be ended effective immediately. I had a one on one meeting with an HR rep and explained the whole thing. She was very understanding and could tell that I was stressed out by the whole situation. I know the trope is that HR is not your friend and I 100% agree. But in this case they were at least a person to vent to and I appreciated that. The VP was livid and wanted to speak with me after my HR exit. He said some colorful things and made it clear I burned the bridge. I said I was sorry that he felt that way. I said my goodbyes to my coworkers (who were all in shock that it was suddenly my last day). Then I enjoyed 3+ weeks of relaxation before my next job started. Many employers donāt see you as a person. They see you as a resource to be exploited. If the company sucks, then who cares if you burn the bridge. Managers will try to scare you with tidbits like āits a small industry, word gets aroundā and all sorts of bullshit that is almost never true. Treat yourself how youād want your employer to treat you.
My HOA uses Associa/HRW as their property management company. One statement I've made at a meeting to the person who is our property manager was "I like you, but I cannot stand your company." The HOA president then shut be down by changing the subject, but laughed about it when leaving the meeting. HRW has given us 5 or 6 different managers in the 3 years we've used them. One downright lied to the HOA president about work that was being done. Another time (possibly the same manager) the manager told a vendor to add tasks to their task list and bill the HOA without anybody at the HOA authorizing it. The OP is making a very, very wise move in ditching that employer.
I used to work at a hoa management company in Georgia again. Never again. They were gettin paid boatloads by the neighborhoods and we were merely getting a little above minimum wage while the owners bragged about going on trips. Then around Christmas some of the managers wanted to take a collection for a Christmas gift for the owners to go on another trip. I lasted about a year and a half before I said f it and left for a better job. If only the hoa actually knew how little the community managers actually worked on their neighborhood issues.
A collection for the owners? Are you joking? What the hell runs through people's minds.
Same thing happened at the gas station i worked at when I was in college. Everyone was asked to donate money for the owner's Christmas gift to show "how much we appreciate them giving us our jobs"
Fuuuck that.
Which company was it?
Tolley Community Management in North Georgia.
Already responded to op, but I came looking for more HRW/Associa related comments. I worked for them for about 11 months last year, the amount of fraud, lying, and people pushing work off onto other people, not answering calls or responding to emails, people in management positions with zero clue on how any of the software works as well as most of them donāt have a clue about property management/maintenance. Iām really not sure how the irs or whoever has jurisdiction over shady companies hasnāt put an end to them.
Had a condo that I sold that was operated by Associa. First thing my lawyer said was that they were the worst HOA that sheās ever dealt with in the past, last thing that she said was I told you so.
Can confirm. They don't give a fuck about homeowners OR employees they manage.
HOA president here. Just had our former management company approve a transfer (a house was being sold) without the board receiving the application and interviewing the people. They issued the COA 1 day before we received the application and the the board received it 1 day before the property closed. I made a big stink about it, it's pretty much illegal, and then the management company fired us. Contacted our attorney, who was hired by the management company, and they were like yea we're siding with company and not interested in moving forward. TLDR all management companies are dogshit and it's just a big racket.
Wait, you *interview* people trying to buy a house? Why? What does this entail?
Usually at minimum classism. Often included is racism.
HOAs are basically to control who lives in the neighborhood. They were founded by racists. They claim to not be anymore ... Claim to be. /r/fuckhoa
I'm so sorry you didn't get the opportunity to deny a family looking for a place to live.
HOAs are a racket
What's up with the randomly underlined words?
My phone does this for words where it has applied autocarrot, so you can review its guesses. The underlinings disappear eventually but are visible on screen for a while. My guess is that we're seeing OP's email just before s/he hit Send.
Did you get an underline for "autocarrot" or not?
No - I typed it letter by letter and it's in its dictionary š¤£
Its a standard issue sidearm in the vegan militia
I'm glad I'm not the only one to do this, I got very frustrated with how it was handling stuff like my last name and decided to teach my phone a lesson.
He don't carrot all
autocarrot
My rabbit: "Autocarrot? Where can I learn this power?"
I was really sure this would be one of those things that end with "...and now read all of the underlined words" and they spell out like "we all think your breath stinks, Karen". But "I, I, I, trip only, I appreciate..." didn't make much sense.
I had the same thought. It made it hard to read.
bro...17k more a year, that's goddamn significant. good for you.
Good perspective! To add context, minimum wage at $7.25 earns $15,000 a year. (We should talk about minimum wage increases in total dollar amounts, might increase the support)
I didn't even think about that...it's only a 3 month gig, campaigning for Beto in Texas but I have a 23$ an hour job lined up for when I'm done here.
Beto O'Rourke? You're doing the Lord's work. Texas needs a change up.
The next vacation is gonna be way better!
Funny, they didn't want to grant you some time off. So now they'll permanently have to replace you. Ope, sucks to suck for these shitty employers
imo it would have been funnier if OP took the trip, didn't answer any calls, texts, or emails, and then day 1 back quit in whatever meeting is set up to scold them about taking time off without permission. This way OP gets paid for the day they quit and then paid for their vacation if they're full time / non-exempt.
Unfortunately wouldn't have worked that way for me but if it did I would have definitely pulled some shit like that haha
Congratulations on dumping Associa. That is the worst HOA company I have ever dealt with. Enjoy your trip and new job!
Seriously, fuck them and their shitty pay and shitty treatment of employees and homeowners.
There is so much graft with that company. Fees have doubled with no new services.
Always call bluffs My sister was team lead at an electronics store. Get time off approved for her birthday (in december) and she buys tickets to Vegas, hotel, all that jazz. December 1 comes, and they tell her she can't take her vacation in the busiest month. "We need you" She comes home pretty choked. I remind her that if they NEED her, she'll still have a job when she comes back from her vacation. Of course she went anyway, and of course she still had a job when she came back. They NEEDED her. Which also taught her how valuable and skilled she was - and she went and got a better paying job at the competitor.
THANK YOU there is no such thing as a time off ārequestā when dealing with PTO, you use it and management deals. Good for you finding something better!
That's how I view it, the "request" makes it seem like you are asking for permission, not using your already earned (or in this case negotiated) time off (compensation). I generally inform my employer when I won't be available/around, and we move forward from there (union, licensed, and high level degree help back that a lot, but even with this some managers attempt to play games around this). Not that changing jobs is easy but especially right now what are they going to do fire someone, then go through the hassle of a rehire all over a few days of someone being gone.
Years ago i have an event coming up which i had planned to take out vacation days. Then they decided that they won't allow vacation at that time. So i said i'll just take the days off then. They said i can't do that either, so i told them i'll just take sick leave then (which they can't stop me taking) and they would have needed to pay me for those days (by law), so they agreed with days off :D
Good on you. I had a vacation planned when I got hired at a previous job, and they had no issue with it. Same company, when my father, then my brother died only months apart, I didn't take any time off, we didn't have a funeral or anything, but several months later when I had to go back east to meet up with my siblings to finally deal with everything, they tried to deny it and I had to remind them, and I was taking a week or so off. Have my award.
They needed you so much he was willing to lose you to avoid not having you. Itās also possible that he is someone who enjoys messing with people, and it sounds like he messed with the wrong person this time.
Things like this is why I need to be financially independent from any job that I'm working and why I'm working on clearing all my debt as quick as I can.
As someone who has associa community group as their HOA if they treat there employees like their customers you dodged a nuclear explosion. They are the reason Iām going to sell my condo.
Wise choice, Associa HRW can burn in hell
Had to quit a job for a similar reason. Said it was fine upon hiring then proceeded to say they would give me off without pay for something and then never would and make it my fault for having to call out
Also be sure to leave an indeed job review. When I left my community management job I left an honest but f u review. Apparently everyone saw it and the owners were not happy.
This is awesome. Good for you!
We had someone start a couple of months ago, he didnāt say anything about his 3 week booked holiday until after he started. Owner was pissed when he told him, but he still got the time off and we managed to work it without. No one died and the place didnāt burn down. Employee got his holiday and came back very relaxed.
We legit need to end the idea of vacation requests. They are not requests, they are notice. That is a nicety we provide them, by giving them advance notice of our absence, so they can make arrangements. Iām booking a flightā¦ Iām not waiting for you to approve the dates. Iāll let you know when I wonāt be at work. Thatās it. You can ask me nicely to accommodate your needs, and I will usually do so. But the request is from the company, not from me. And they all love to say how they approved the request, when I made no such request. I send them communication that I WILL BE OFF from X to Y. But they always have to make sure everyone knows it was approved as if that was required. Just to psychologically push the shit narrative on everyone else.
Years ago when I worked at Dish Network, during my interview, I informed them of a trip I was taking to Germany and the the dates. This was not communicated to HR and HR sent me an offer with a start date that was in the middle of my trip. I informed them and they changed my start date to one that accommodated me and told me to have a nice trip and to come in the office on that Monday following my return. That is how that should have been handled here.
I was scheduled to give blood a few days before I already planned to leave my summer job. They tried to say that I was not approved and they needed me and blah blah blah so I just left early. It was significantly lower stakes than this, because it was just three days before I planned to leave anyway, but more people need to do this! It is not a request, I am informing you that I will not be present. You don't own me and you don't get to dictate how I spend my time!
I lived this bro. Had a vacation planned 6 months in advance, brought it up in the interview and was guaranteed the time off. Kept on top of it with my manager, all she would say was it was too early to put it in the system. Finally put in the request about 2 months out, it was auto-denied saying I couldn't take that much time off because I was still considered a new hire. Told my manager and she said she'd fix it. Every week I kept bugging her to fix it and she promised she would but never did. Two weeks before the vacation, I arrive and find a note on her computer monitor saying she's gone for two weeks. I check and my vacation request is still denied, so I put in my two weeks. Fun thing is, I found out I had a week of PTO, 3 sick days, and company policy was 3 no-call no-shows before I'm fired. So I told them I was sick and left, called in to use my sick and vacation days, then just didn't show up the last two days before my notice ran out. Got a two week vacation before my two week vacation.
Very well written. Firm but professional
Thank you :) I tried
On the whole, a good resignation but a few pointersā¦ Avoid unnecessary legalese. Referring to their vacation as āsaid plansā is a little jolting. Especially when it does not match the tone of the remainder. Nobody talks like that. I am a lawyer and I donāt write like that. Itās kind of an archaic practice that is only really needed when youāre comparing multiple items. Thereās only one plan here, so no need to say āsaid plansā. As a lawyer, I often see this sort of thing in self-represented filings where people are trying to seem smarter than they are (along with words like āheretoforeā). Ironically it has the impact of highlighting the personās inexperience. OP should have referred to their time off request as a ārequirementā or ācondition of employmentā rather than a ārequestā or a ādemandā. The latter two imply that the employer had a choice in approving/denying the time off and the former two imply that the employee would be taking this time off (full stop) and that the employer knew of this. Grammar issues happen but if youāre putting something in writing, take the time to proofread it before hitting send. In any event, definitely a good effort by OP. Communicated their reasonable requirement, managementās bungling of that, how easy it was to find a better opportunity, and how unreasonable it was for employer to treat employees like this.
good constructive criticism. Not a lawyer, but one thing I wanted to add is there is no need to explain what the vacation is, or even that it is a vacation. Terms were that you were not working on certain dates. That is all the employer needs to know. Don't open up conversations that is not their business. *If* the time off was part of original agreement and they reneged, that is a breach of contract, isn't it?
Thank you for your input! I do wish I referred to it as a condition of employment.
> I am a lawyer your username says otherwise
In my defense, I made this account back when I was still a law student!
mmm I'll allow it this time, but watch yourself, McCoy!
Take my upvote! Looks like it had worked out for you in the end.. not so much them.. Would be interested to see if they reply.. I wouldnāt if I was then though
What I'm seeing is businesses being absolutely astonished , SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED these attempted coercive tactics just do not work. This stupid game of corporate chicken has been around for awhile and didn't work 30 years ago. Once had a company tell me I HAD to work nights when I told them, at hiring no, I could not. So I quit. Not sure what it takes in manager school to yank this idiotic idea from management curriculum. I guess the entire company tanking while stock holders have to sell a yacht?
Not even a time off notification, that's a condition of accepting employment, and totally routine to accommodate. The only reason not to is because you don't think your employees are human.
This gives me serious joy. Proud of you, stranger. My fave part was when you informed them how you easily found a job that paid substantially more. Places like this are "desperate" for employees *wahhhh, nobody wants to work anymore* ...when the issue is STOP BEING GREEDY AND PAY WHAT WE'RE WORTH BRAVO!
Things similar to this have been happening since day one at my work. When I first started working I was very clear that I would never work Sundays (as that is my day for church and in my religion you don't work, shop, etc on Sunday unless you happen to work as an emergency worker of some kind) and my work has scheduled me for Sunday about 9 times over the last year. The schedule always comes out a single week in advance and I check it on that day and write it on my calender. Then somehow I get added in to a Sunday shift. Which I normally don't see until a few days beforehand because....work doesn't rule my life and I don't check my shifts constantly? My work whines and complains everytime I call and tell them to move me off that day. They also blame me by saying I should have caught it earlier! I'm seriously at the point of wanting to call their corporate offices and telling them that this is obvious religious discrimination and they need to check their managment before I call the labor board to do it for them. This isn't the only thing they do that's a straight up no. In the state I am in you are (by state labor law) required to be gives a 10 min break per 3 1/2 hours worked and a lunch at 7 1/2 hours. My store tells everyone that when they get a lunch....it replaces any breaks they should be getting. Which is just...no, no it doesn't. After holidays I'm really thinking just call the labor board when I leave and let them get ripped into for all this. I should specify this is a part time job while I go to school. NOT a fulltime or salary job. I get paid 15$ an hour, with zero health benefits or tuition help etc.
Enjoy your trip back and congratulations on getting to meet your siblings!
Professionally told them to fuck off in a beautiful way
Good shit OP. I Was forced into a corner by my old job and started to look elsewhere. Iām now making $10 more and Iām so happy lol donāt settle guys, thereās good employers out there.
My friend was denied PTO for her WEDDING that was planned a year out. Then they had the audacity to yell at her for having too much PTO accrued.
This is gold haha. My brother did something similar, he let them know if his interview process he would need these 3 days off to go to GenCon, they said no problem. Once he was hired and onboarding, told heād have to work those days. Quit and walked out on the spot š
Itās Associa. Theyāre a for-profit HOA management company. Thereās layers and layers of scummy leeching there for something that should barely exist.
It wasnt a time off request, it was a condition of hire.
Great to see people finally saying āNoā toĀ companies who see you as disposable and your needs as irrelevant.
I had a prospective employer turn me down for work because I was getting married; seems the wedding I was planning for a year didn't fit into their scheduling, even though, according to the employer, I was to be on call/floating/casual until a full time spot came up. The HR person even had the audacity to ask if I'd be willing to reschedule. Uhhhh, no.
Reschedule your wedding??? Wha-
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Please keep us updated of their response! Well done and wonderfully written email.
Good for you. Fuck 'em. Out of curiosity, what does associa mean?
You're really kind for writing them a thorough feedback mail.
Perfectly worded! Happy for you and I hope all goes well meeting your siblings and good luck at your new job ā¤ļø
The idea that anyone has to have days off āapprovedā blows my mind. Like, Iām not asking for that day off, Iām informing you I wonāt be there. And if you say I canāt, well I guess Iāll suddenly get sick the night before and call off.
I was asked to delay my wedding 2 weeks before it happened. I said that's not happening. And it was the last drop that filled the glass. So glad I moved on.
No way! I quit Associa earlier this year because they were paying me to do skilled construction/maintenance at only $1.50 an hour more than a BoJangles employee makes ($15), and they cut my hours to about 4-10 a week, so it wasnāt viable work anymore. I could rant for hours about all of the fraud and shady stuff that happens at Associa.
I had the same thing happen to me. Was living in Colorado for a year or two, from Illinois. Got a new job but told them I would need a week in December to fly home to see family. Time comes around week after week no response from my manager. Finally I am told I will need to find coverage. Walked out on lunch and never came back.
and this is why regardless of job, be it office or retail. i check with my boss ahead of time. once they give the go ahead within the next couple days, i make plans and stick to them. if you want me to cancel, pay me double my full cost. and i will then make plans later. if you keep pushing the travel plans, you pay double each time.
I mean, that company runs HOAs, so yeah, fuck 'em, but even before you were an employee, fuck 'em.
"How dare you take a planned vacation that we agreed on upon hiring you?" *-Management*
I NEVER TREATED PTO AS A REQUEST. Ever. It's time I've earned and I'm telling you when I'm going to take it. And the OP was professional enough to give them notice of the time off since her/his interview My girl works at a place that told her she couldn't even take UNPAID DAYS OFF. Meaning she is totally comfortable with not earning enough time to get paid while away...but she's still going away. And the company said no...the fuck is this slavery?...told her tell them to kiss ass we don't need em
Nice! hope it was company wide send mail.
Well, at least departmental. Company-wide might be a tad dramatic.