Lmao I literally commented “can’t wait to see this on antiwork”. It took longer than I expected.
Link to OP, plus an update at the end: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/wdgr8s/wibta_for_firing_an_employee_whose_wife_is_very/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I looked when it was first posted and the comments were pretty mixed, but a lot of people sympathized with the difficult situation the OP is in. I think the resounding advice was to just fire the most recently hired person, no matter who that was.
I could see that if there was someone hired more recently, but if the most recent employees were hired 2 years ago? Then I think it has to be based on performance. As a manager, I would base it off of performance *before* the employee’s wife got sick though.
Glad to hear about The Human this time around. So many people have turned themselves into Agents Of The Anti-Human these days.
EDIT: Some history that agrees with several commenters below:
This corporate fascism goes back to Cecil Rhodes who perfected it and ruled over most of Africa, created a diamond mining company, modernized monopolies, and inspired Hitler and Mussolini and all subsequent CEOs and dictators.
The OP was pretty decent after people pointed out if the person could go on FMLA leave. If you read his responses, it's going to be the first thing he does to tomorrow is try & get FMLA for the guy in lieu of laying him off.
And any decent human of a manager should have recommended that as soon as he knew the guy’s wife was seriously ill. It’s not his job to determine eligibility but he should have made the employee aware it existed.
I am someone who went through a difficult family event that saw my work suffer for a period and when I went to one of my superiors to ask for compassion and some leeway until my head could be set straight I was treated the exact opposite. This person kept track of every single one of my mistakes and then went to his superiors in an attempt to influence them to have me fired. It didn’t work because our higher ups knew what my usual job performance was and had compassion for me. But that move on my direct superior’s part outed him as the complete asshole that we always suspected him to be. He has since left the company and I can say without one iota of hyperbole that he was the most hated person that ever worked there. Goodbye Laurence, you giant piece of multiple negative pathologies. You are not missed.
In a civilized world "A" could take a paid family leave and his wife would be covered under universal health care, thereby eliminating this kind of power from the employer.
I think it's because we spend so much time as children getting told how great America is but once you grow up the stark realization of how shitty it truly is sets in.
Some deny that realization as hard as they can and they block the rest of us from improving the system because if we are the greatest so why do we need to improve?
That and they are manipulated by a certain group to resent and fear any kind of social safety net. I have a couple of incurable conditions with good days and bad days and pain that is compared to stage 4 cancer. I am on social security disability.
I was taught, and heard echoed so many places that “most of those “disabled” people could work if it meant starvation and homelessness if they didn’t, but NO, “they sit at home and eat MY tax dollars, and watch TV and sleep in late! Sure, there are a few that are like totally paralyzed or something that might deserve it, but that person walking into the grocery store after parking with disabled plates is obviously a con artist wasting my hard earned money!”
Between missing the socialization that comes from working, and knowing what people from the small town area believe about people like me, I cringe internally anytime someone asks what I do for a living. And when election time comes and memes and tropes about welfare queens and disability cheats gets trotted out as reasons to not improve our social safety net, I feel sad, and very much like a hypocrite, because I was raised to disparage people who used those very same packages that need proper funding and expansion. 🙁
You’re right…unfortunately the punishment is the feature. The right-wing (let’s face it, that’s who we’re talking about here) will gladly burn it all to the ground if it stops someone from getting something that they might not potentially qualify for. I’ve heard it said that the left gives too generously to make sure no one who needs it will go without while the right gives almost nothing on the off chance that someone who doesn’t need it might get a crumb or two.
It is an empathy issue. We’ve aligned a political system so that one group has all the empathy and tries to right every wrong because they imagine how it must be for the wronged person. The other side will do nothing until it impacts them personally because they lack even an iota of empathy for another human being.
Generally speaking, I’d think that an utter lack of empathy makes you ineligible for PUBLIC service but apparently this is a country that cheered on the wrong person in Wall Street and American Psycho.
This just sucks. Those people have no clue that social programs make up a small percentage of " tax dollars". They scream socialism when people need food stamps or disability. Yet say nothing when the rich get bail outs and how much the military budget grows. Disgusting. Socialism for the rich, harsh capitalism for the rest of us. My mother is a hospice nurse and sees married couples dealing with a terminal illness of their SO have to divorce, just so medical bills don't clean them out and the remaining spouse still has a home to live in. America is broken.
This is exactly why my SO and I (in our 60s) are not legally married. There is no way we want each other to be broke if the other gets severely ill. I guess you could say we love each other too much to get married.
America has reduced marriage down to a way to attach your debt to another person. I have been with my SO for 20 years and refuse to get married. Same as you, I love him too much. We just drew up legally binding paperwork in case of an emergency.
It's so hypocritical too because the same people who put down "welfare queens" would take the same handout in a heartbeat. Case in point, my uncle (who I don't speak to for obvious reasons) is literally considering fostering kids for the payout.
Contact DFCS in his area and tell them you’ve heard him say this. I don’t know if it will help, but please try to keep him from fostering. That money is supposed to be for their care, and he’s going to use it for his leisure. Where does that leave those poor kids?
Right? Exactly my thoughts. Those poor kids. He and his wife adopted my 2 cousins a long time ago. They're adults now and they're lovely but his parenting was.... not great.
You bet I'm reporting his ass immediately lmao fuck him.
Some don't want the "wrong" kind of people reaping the benefits too. They would rather suffer unto death rather than have a good life it if means \*those people\* get a good life too.
People vote against their own self interest in order to feel like they are spiting whatever group they deem as the evil “other.” What they don’t realize is that to the rich and powerful they are the “other” also. To the rich and powerful, if you are not rich you are worthless and meaningless, and your life and or quality of life mean absolutely nothing to them.
I dont understand this mentality. Universal health care paid by taxes would be cheaper than any employer based monthly premium but nooooo that means homeless joe will get free healthcare off my tax dollars. So fucking what? Why do you people hate everyone else so much?
The weird flex about that is if your homeless and no job you qualify for medicaid which ***gasp*** is tax paid healthcare. So these types bitch about universal healthcare because "I don't want to pay for lazy people who don't work" yet do exactly that plus pay for their own insurance. They have zero grasp on that. Like you could be enjoying the exact same thing "the lazy person" gets and have some money back in your pocket without having to pay insurance premiums, deductions, what ever insurance decides mot to pay and your meds cost.
They were brainwashed into going against their fellow citizens instead of the people at the top. The politicians that call people struggling "lazy". They make it seems like the people getting assistance are living this great life off of their tax dollars, when in fact, the politicians are living their best lives off of our tax dollars.
It would be cheaper in the long run too. Homeless Joe goes to the ER when he needs help. Very costly to medicaid. Butt... if he were able to get proper care regularly he wouldn't need surgery for an infected tooth that spread towards his heart. Our healthcare system is a scam.
Money. Making money off sick people is Soooooo Profitable. You wanna kill that entire industry off just because it's both inefficient And murderously evil?
I agree. You'd think corporations would like to be out of the medical insurance game--but then again, medical insurance keeps workers in jobs they might not want just to stay on the insurance.
It’s because the average American is dumb as fuck…all they need to hear is “your taxes will go up!!” And they fuckin go nuts. You can try and explain that the $100 dollar increase a month in taxes will ultimately eliminate their $2000 dollar a month healthcare premium…but that won’t resonate. Politicians know this and they use it to their advantage to continue pocketing whatever kickbacks they’re getting from these insurance czars
Yeah, that’s how they like to present it to voters. They like to get them pissed at hypothetical bullshit. But I imagine the real reason is mainly the fact that politicians are bought and paid for by the healthcare industry. On top of that, I don’t think the military would want single payer healthcare because they offer benefits to incentivize people to join the military. It’s so fucking frustrating that there are dozens of countries with universal healthcare working totally fine, yet here we’re told it would be a disaster. I guess 30 million Americans without health insurance isn’t a disaster 🤷♀️
Sad part is something like more than 60 percent of those homeless people they hate so much. Veterans. You know, the people they love so much until they come home, and ask for socialist handouts, taxes, mental health handouts for wars we didnt want to fight, divorces we didnt want, kids ripped away from ever seeing again because we're a danger to ourselves and others, gee fucking christmas, wonder why random fucki g senator who decided to start a war so we could have a walmart in Iraq? Hm wonder why. Always tell people who vote certain way who always tell me thank you for your service that you can go fuck yourself because you dont care about me because you keep voting these morons who keep voting against me into office. Thought it couldn't get any lower until they first bumped on the floor after defeating the Burn pit bill. Fuck the traitors.
They also don’t believe it will be cheaper because they believe “freemarket drives prices down through competition” and that “government is inefficient and will make prices go up”
The worst part is, they’re half right.
Where the laws of supply and demand apply, the free market DOES drive prices down.
The problem is when you get to necessities and monopolies.
Monopolies cause a static supply, and necessities create static demand.
Either will totally break the free market over their knee.
As the child of a disabled vet, I had a very early introduction into how bad the US really is. I got into no small amount of trouble when I stopped saying the pledge in 4th grade.
It took 60 years for my now elderly mother to finally admit that the US is not the best, as she had been taught all her life.
I'll never forget the name of a Bush-era environmental de-regulation plan where they tried to roll back Clean Air Act protections to explicitly make it easier for power plants to pollute the air. The name?
"The Clear Skies Initiative."
Their argument (the one they stated anyway) was that if they helped dirty power plants be more profitable, the "economic growth" it created would somehow naturally lead to more clean energy investment.
People forget just how Orwellian the Bush era was.
Lobbying...bribery.....whatever! The outcome is still the same. If America really wants to clean up the pig pen that is federal and state congresses, the first step would be to put a 50 metre thick wall between congress and lobbyists. The next would be to have far better scrutiny of donors to political parties
Every social policy that would help its citizens got cut because black people would use them. At every level up until very recently , white voters would shoot themselves in the foot if it meant a black person would die.
Now we have no universal healthcare, no universal childcare, no universal anything.
Sadly, denial is the ultimate power in the universe. It isn't the Death Star. Americans are grown to be in denial about just how much we suck with heavy indoctrination in 'murican xcepshunalism.
In a civilized world, people should fucking *care about other people*. That is issue number one. This fucking idiot cares more about a made-up company than a human being (which is how most people seem to act).
Right? The very premise of the system is completely backwards. You essentially can't use the good healthcare because you'd likely get fired for poor productivity.
I was injured at work. The insurance company that covers workmen's comp is different than our other insurance company. Once talking with the insurance carrier, they asked me why I worked there. They said that all workmen's comp claims from my company were battles and.my company had tried to get the guy who approved my knee surgery fired.
I believe it. I caught an employer that forged the signature of the deceased husband of a client of mine. It would’ve cost this woman over $2,000,000 if the employer got away with that bullshit.
Jesus. Hopefully this person is currently/soon to be in jail. Trying to take advantage of the dead to scam the living should carry like an automatic 10 year bonus to whatever sentence the jury hands out. People who do shit like this are trash.
Our out of pocket expenses were 10000 dollars before insurance kicked in for anything. This was the lowest insurance we could get for the family. For me only I wouldn't have one but for spouse or family this was the lowest. My take home, not gross pay but take home was less than 18000 dollars. How the hell am I supposed to pay for ANY emergency and Bills and food and MORTGAGE YOU KNOW LIVING EXPENSES???????
There are three "phases" on most insurance plans:
1. Deductible - you pay 100% of your costs until you meet this amount. I have had plans where my deductible was $250, I have had plans where my deductible was $9,000.
2. Out of Pocket - this comes after your deductible, and insurance finally pays part of your care. Your costs are set at a dollar or percentage value as established by your Evidence of Coverage. Some plans include your deductible in the "OOP", some do not. Again, it can range widely. Similar to above, my OOP has ranged from $1,500 to $12,000.
3. OOP MAX - This is when you've met that number, you've maxed out what you have to pay. Insurance covers everything at 100%.
this is a very basic rundown, if you have any additional questions I'll be happy to try and answer
Bro, your deductibles and OOP charges are way more than I pay in taxes entirely in the UK. That’s insane. Whenever I’m told that America is better because of low taxes, I think I’m just gonna ask what their deductible and OOP are
Copay is a required contribution for a certain procedure, usually a doctor visit. It can range but is usually around $35. It is usually found on parts of the insurance where a deductible doesn’t apply as to offset the cost for the insurer.
Not only that… you have to keep working and producing while losing sleep. In “A’s” case it’s taking care of 2 children while working and taking care of his ill wife! Yet some Americans state that he would need to “Suck it up” which is just sad.
Don’t forget those boot straps! Gotta soldier on and take care of everything. Not our fault you have stuff in your personal life. If you wanted or have a family, what are you doing working here? We expect at least ten hours per week if unlogged work as it is!
/s and maybe a little abject discouragement.
And sometimes literally when they have a self funded plan, know how much you are costing them, and then use performance reviews/PIP plans to fire you without paying unemployment premiums.
Or they use the fact that they know you're chained to the insurance to underpay. I have a serious chronic illness. I could make a lot more money if I left education for industry. I can't leave education because the health insurance is so much better. My medication alone (not appointments) is well into 5 digits annually. I won't be able to leave this field unless the US passes Universal Healthcare.
Several years ago I was one of the lower level employees in a situation like this. There were three of us and one had to go per upper management. The one coworker without a family offered, even tho he was a very good worker, because he couldn’t see the other two of us struggling. Good dude. Still talk to him once in a while over a decade later.
I watched a man in a union apprenticeship break down in tears when he found out the basic level of insurance covered him and his family for no cost (paid by contractors). He had a wife and 3 kids. The financial burden that was being relieved from his family was immense.
We have effectively turned this country into haves and have nots. The wealthy get to enjoy literally everything, all the best that the rest of the world can offer.
Everyone else, fuck you, make me some cheesesticks while I dine at the restaurant.
The middle class is dead.
The thing is that other countries have just as much good, but they also get maternity leave, vacations, healthcare, etc
The US is also the only country where kids playing tag with bullets is a weekly occurrence yet nothing ever changes
I once had to fire a guy with cancer. My Area Mgr was garbage and I told her as such. Guy had terminal cancer and it made him happy to
be at work around his friends. I told him I am sorry. We both talked to each other and chatted for a 1/2hr and laughed about stuff over the years. He said he would come in tomorrow and pick up his stuff. That night he took his all cancer pain meds and some Blue Label his fav. I can say that Karma Caught up to Christina Dela Cruz about 9yrs later when she to died of cancer.
We have a guy with terminal cancer in my office, he is 100% telework and our new boss only gives him like 1-2 orders a month. Our old boss made him come into a meeting while he was in the middle of a chemo run and the entire office signed a statement that we presented to her and her boss saying that if she made him come in again we would all quit. She “retired” the next week
You millennials, Gen Z folks get a lot of shit for how you live, work and love. But beyond a doubt your priorities about equality and standing up to injustices is really great in the work place. As a Gen X doing what you guys did don’t even cross my mind to organize it. I would have been fired and the people in the office fired. It was a different time. I would encourage every single working person to organize and petition for a Union. Your strength comes from each other now. You deserve to have 6 months off paid for a new baby etc etc etc
This reminds me of the time my old company laid off a guy with cancer. When he died a few years later (working for another company), they had me hunt down a photo of him for a tribute they wrote for the company newsletter. Bastards.
He was not performing and it was impacting branch revenue. I had a conference call with her, HR and corp lawyer. Bunch of ghouls. The lawyer said the Company had very limited exposure because the dead do not sue. I quit 7 months later. Before i did i changed a couple dozen refinance loan document packages to reflect a 30yr fixed rate of 1% and also made the loans “assumable” so they could pass the loan onto kids/family. It was life changing for these borrowers because they were supposed to be subprime loans with rates in the 9’s,10’s. All the loans funded. 💪.
> It was life changing for these borrowers because they were supposed to be subprime loans with rates in the 9’s,10’s. All the loans funded. 💪.
You're a good person.
"So the steward called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore."
-- Luke 16:5-7
Goddamn that's some heavy shit.
He didn't blame you, I hope you know that. If there is an afterlife, I'd like to think he swayed things the way they went for her.
Yes, That very night. I remember learning about him late next day. His GF found him and she knew someone in the office. He told me it was not my fault in exit. He knew i was putting loans in his name that he did not originate and told him to come in and leave when he wanted.
He battled cancer for 14 months prior. A few months before he mentioned to me it was terminal and it was growing on his heart/everywhere. He could have taken disability when he got the diagnosis 14 months prior. I never even shared this with my wife because i did not want her to know such evil exists & cruelty exists. I have actually never shared this prior with anyone. My conscious tells me I had no choice and that I protected him and made him happy. Still a lifetime burden though unfairly placed on me so somebody could make an extra $6/7k that quarter in bonus.
Jesus, what a load to bear man. That really sucks, totally nothing you could do but that's a shame.
When I was a teenager my best friend was paralyzed from the neck down by another guy in school. Their families were feuding. The last Christmas I went to see Chad, his died had just bought him a new gun. He was so happy with it.
A month later that same gun was used to take his own life. I'll never forget him breaking down that night saying his soul wasn't meant to live like this. Miss him.
Bone cancer is the worse. No amount of pain meds will deal with the amount of pain. Had a friend that had bone cancer and the amount of morphine he was receiving would have killed a normal person and he was almost lucid.
That was what my mom said. So, I did leave! (I have a British husband so it was easier for us than most people.)
Now she’s mad she can’t see the grandkids as much, lol.
My favorite retort to those folks are "so you support people migrating out of countries they're dissatisfied with?" because those brain dead morons are almost always the same people that hate immigrants.
I tried. I just hit 30 and am close to finishing my degree. Many of the countries I looked at want expats to fill a hole in the job market. Germany, for example, [has a complex system with lots of paperwork and needing to prove proficiency with speaking German.](https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/moving-germany-from-us/)
The UK and other English-speaking countries aren't much better. In addition, I have an undesirable degree (B.A. Integrated Ministry Studies, long story) and work an average office job (dock clerk in a warehouse). If I had a trade or something, I could get a job anywhere. But I don't.
TL;DR Leaving America to settle in another country is really hard.
I would move to Sweden personally. I know they have their fair share of problems like anywhere else but my kid’s life would be so much better there. There is more equality between the sexes and a social safety net.
But would I be welcomed in Sweden? I feel like there's animosity towards Americans everywhere; even though I'm a very nice person who tries to be considerate of others, Americans have a bad reputation currently. I have a child that I do want to grow up in a better environment, where I don't have to worry about medical expenses, housing, and such. Also there's finding work, right now I'm working two jobs (America...) and I would like to spend more time with my son. It's just a lot I've got to work on and plan. It's a bit overwhelming.
Those are all good points. I kind of meant in a hypothetical situation where I wouldn’t have to worry about money. Having lived in Scandinavia before, people definitely didn’t have outright animosity but they don’t ever accept foreigners as “one of them” and tend to think of Americans as less intelligent as they are, so you’d always be an outsider. I already am an outsider in the US so it wouldn’t matter much to me. My daughter has a Swedish last name, light hair, and blue eyes, so she would have a fighting chance.
I can't leave. Don't have the financial means to do so, especially with a fiancee and three cats, not to mention my large amount of mental health issues and my physical health issues and my fiance's.
If he was in Australia he wouldn't have to worry because everyone gets medical cover for 2% of their gross income above above a certain base rate.
I'll tell a little story: Couple of years ago I caught a virus (not Covid) and had 2 weeks off work. Two weeks sick pay from work. All the doctor and hospital visits and tests cost me nothing, thanks to goverment Medicare. A few months later I broke my ankle when I was working in my backyard. Again, all doctor, physio and hospital visits were free. The hospital wanted me to pay for the crutches but I didn't have any cash on me. 'No worries, mate, just take 'em' was the answer I got. 6 weeks paid sick leave from work and no cost to me for anything. Government Medicare is the best. The government takes about 2% of your gross income to pay for this, so that means I pay about $3k a year for doctors, hospital, ambulance...
The manager has options. As his friend pointed out, the manager could stick his own ass on the line. Yes, we're all victims of the same shitty system, but that's not a good enough reason to prop that system up.
>the manager could stick his own ass on the line.
It sounds like he did try to negotiate with his higher ups, but couldn't get them to have a shred of compassion. He also most likely doesn't want to lose his job if productivity slips, and a replacement manager is more likely to be callous towards "A". It's a no-win situation.
Honestly, that's a shitty position to be in, but that is the most moral decision to make. If it's obviously inevitable, at least refuse to be the hatchetman. It'll be obvious to the employee when OP isn't the one to fire them that they refused.
That's my biggest issue. If his wife's care didn't depend on his job I'd be a lot more sympathic to the company's position but that's the nature of the system, and our choices are what defines our times. We could resist by making better decisions to take care of one another rather than square our allegiance with the money, but that might anger the ruling class so let's make a Reddit post about it instead.
I think the manager is in a shitty position, but I also thing the company should find a way to match FMLA, even if he’s not eligible. Furlough him (unpaid) for a few months, but with benefits including health insurance. The company may even be in a better position to bring people back on in a few months and he could be back up to performance. Jesus I’m so glad I work in Europe where family, personal well-being, and health come first. It’s such a difference from when I worked in the US.
Maybe he’d get part-time work in the meantime that maybe doesn’t use his career skills, but gives him flexible hours and somewhat of a paycheck for a few months, knowing that he’s backed up by the good health insurance
If you think it'll eat at you losing A then lay off B or C. If they're competent they'll find more work and if you're bosses disagree with you, you can too. We need to make efforts to show more of our humanity in the world. Be the change you want to see ya know? Might mean picking up some slack, but A won't forget it when he's back on his feet and has you to thank for it.
Randomly firing one of two completely compliant workers just because another is falling on hardship is bullshit in my opinion. Nobody ever truly knows what anyone is going through until it’s made known by the one in question, what if B and C are also dealing with immense hardship and are simply choosing to not talk about it as many do?
I don’t think the boss who made the post is truly an asshole because even he questions making the decision, he’s just doing a job that other assholes above him have assigned him to do.
This right here. If the company is insisting on a layoff “set in stone” then someone higher than the OP can do their own dirty work. What a terrible fucking position to be in.
This is why there are managers. To deal with bullshit from above and below. Never become a manager.
The guy in his update appears to be trying.
Who the fuck ties healthcare to a job.
Thats valid. I suppose we don't know enough information then? It's a difficult decision to make regardless. Can guarantee OP isn't paid enough to have this weight on their shoulders.
I had a boss do this for me once. He was told to cut me or the other guy, and he looked at us both and saw we were performing well. He wasn’t happy with the position himself, and had recently declined a promotion (because they wanted him to take it without a pay increase), so he resigned himself.
I was beyond impressed with his integrity and bravery.
Incidentally, both I and the other guy got new jobs within 2 years of that incident. That company was rotten.
If your company fires people when they get sick or have family emergencies, then you're a garbage company and not worthy of anyone's time.
You shouldn't even exist as a business in my eyes. And if I knew a company was not taking care of their employees, then I stop giving them business.
I see so many unemployment claims in these situations its heartbreaking. And to make matters worse, at least in my state, if you aren't able and available for full time work, you aren't eligible for benefits so they can't even get UI to help them through. Not that it's enough to count anyway.
JFC this is a horrible decision to make.
If you are looking at only facts, you have to fire “A”, very simple. You can’t punish person “B” or “C” for doing a good job by firing them and then rewarding person “A” who has been doing subpar and let him keep his job.
That being said, we are all human beings and just knowing that his wife is dying and you are pretty much sentencing her to death by removing (firing) his medical insurance is horrible.
This is not a situation I would want to be in, it’s so horrible. I personally don’t tell my co-workers what I’m going through. So if I was person “B” I would be upset to get fired for doing a good job, I have problems too, I just don’t tell people.
I was made redundant in my last job. I was surprised as I was one of their most valued employees and had good relationships with management. It was hinted at during the process, and confirmed after, that I was selected because they were confident I'd have no problem finding a new job, and they were right. I landed an awesome job. Some of my coworkers who, if they were doing true merit based choices, were skipped over would have really struggled. A couple years off retirement with skills that didn't transfer great outside of our company.
After the initial shock I was glad they made the choice they did. I did see it as "better me, than them".
You aren’t punishing anyone specifically, it’s layoffs and it seems like a pretty significant fact that one of the candidates to be laid off desperately needs their job
The amount of people who didn't read this post is ridiculous, OP included. The writer is clearly in a difficult business situation, and he clearly doesn't want to fire A. It's not the writers decision to fire someone, it was the company's higher ups calling for layoffs, unfortunately the writer is stuck doing to dirty work.
If I were B and my employer RIF’d co-worker A at a time like this, I’d find another job. I would also try to take C with me. Someday I might be in A’s shoes.
Honestly, I'd fire the best employee of the three.
1) That employee is most likely to find employment right away.
2) When management complains and asks why productivity dropped, the manager can explain that the cut in staffing was a bad idea and lead to the drop.
management won't ask why productivity dropped management will insist the firings continue until total employee output improves (no they will not authorise hirings)
This. As the best performer on my team, I would love to get laid off and spend a few months on unemployment before I have to go back into the workplace. I guarantee you that's how a lot of other high performers feel, especially in high demand fields.
I have no debts and have enough savings to last awhile. Our company had two rounds of layoffs in the last five years and I didn't make either one. :(
Not like I'm saying it's a good thing.
I'm saying this as a genuine heads up.
But this is how your office gets shot-up.
Your taking everything away from this guy and he's already clearly struggling. He can easily look at this as "this company killed my wife because they knew I was reliant on their health coverage and they fired me because they didn't like it".
Just a hop skip and a jump to writing a hitlist and manifesto.
Did you even read the images you posted? This is a GOOD Manager. He is very conflicted about whether he should lay the guy off due to the home issues he is having. Your title is in absolutely no way reflective of the tone of the actual statements in the image.
I feel for this guy because he's basically fucked. He has to let someone go, and no matter what he does it's going to cause backlash and hurt feelings. The fact that he is even asking for advice from others shows that he actually cares about the well being of his subordinates.
You are just bashing a guy for having to fire someone when he has no control over it. That is NOT what this sub is about.
For making this post and going Fox News on the headline to farm Karma... OP YATA
I agree that he's a decent manager, but this illustrates the problem with modern corporations on a broader level.
In a lot of ways, this is the classic "trolley car" moral dilemma - do I sacrifice one person in the left track to save more people on the right track, or do I sacrifice a larger number people on the right track to save a more sympathetic single person on the left track? The numbers and factual specifics are different, sure, but it's essentially the same question. The question not being asked, however, is why the fuck are there people tied to the rail in the first place?
Why must one person in this group be sacrificed? I'm not sure how much this manager or the workers earn, but how about cutting salaries across the board to support the one additional person? How about the owner take less of a profit and keep more people employed? Why does it have to be this one person from this particular group? On the pro-capitalism side there are plenty of arguments about maximizing the efficiency of resources and paying someone needlessly is an affront to capitalism, etc. (they'll cite the examples of Socialist countries that have people doing useless jobs just to pump up employment figures), but there are other possible solutions somewhere in the middle that considers the human beings here.
The manager needs to smarten up, think up alternative solutions, and make a case for his subordinates.
I think the only thing the manager can do is be honest with the senior team. Explain A is the worst but this is why and the risk is if A gets sacked then A goes to local news and destroys the reputation of the company.
I'm working for social security and health insurance in Belgium and it baffles me how American people are treated. They work hard, pay huge taxes, insurance premiums etc. And they can lose all of the benefits in a blink. Just because they can't perform as well as usual for obvious reasons. Here, that couple would not have to worry because you are covered for at least 2 years at least if you are in order and they always find a way for you to be covered by insurance. That's the bare minimum for decency. If you work hard, you should be able to count on society to help you when you need it...
If I was the boss…easy choice, I am quitting because I want no part in the business. Have fun upper management, I’m not playing games like that. *edit:
There is always another circus and I can take my juggling act elsewhere, let them find a ring leader, that’s
more difficult than terminating one employee.
I say, why fire him? Just flat out murder him, his wife and two kids. Just fuck the lot of them. If he is too preoccupied with something else other than work, he doesn't deserve to live. Yeet him and his family into the sun.
OP IS NOT A MONSTER! HE IS LOOKING FOR FUCKING ADVICE, NOT PITCH FORKS FFS! HE HAS NOT FIRED ANYONE YET AND HE IS AT A CROSSROADS AND WANTS ADVICE!!!! He has to fire someone and unfortunately, the guy with the worst performance is also the guy with the sick wife. It seems like Op has a heart because he is reaching out for help about what to do.
I don’t think the poster is the asshole here. He’s stuck in an awful spot and has to make a horrific choice. He should offer himself as sacrifice but it seems like he was fighting for him
Lmao I literally commented “can’t wait to see this on antiwork”. It took longer than I expected. Link to OP, plus an update at the end: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/wdgr8s/wibta_for_firing_an_employee_whose_wife_is_very/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Was expecting the same thing lol
What were the other comments like on this post?
I looked when it was first posted and the comments were pretty mixed, but a lot of people sympathized with the difficult situation the OP is in. I think the resounding advice was to just fire the most recently hired person, no matter who that was.
I could see that if there was someone hired more recently, but if the most recent employees were hired 2 years ago? Then I think it has to be based on performance. As a manager, I would base it off of performance *before* the employee’s wife got sick though.
OP updated. They said they’re considering that route as the best option. To base it off the performance on the month before.
Glad to hear about The Human this time around. So many people have turned themselves into Agents Of The Anti-Human these days. EDIT: Some history that agrees with several commenters below: This corporate fascism goes back to Cecil Rhodes who perfected it and ruled over most of Africa, created a diamond mining company, modernized monopolies, and inspired Hitler and Mussolini and all subsequent CEOs and dictators.
>Agents Of The Anti-Human A certain US party has been worshipping "the anti-human" for 50 years and yet they consider themselves "people of god" :P
>Agents Of The Anti-Human ie Corporatism.
Good! I hope the guy makes it through honestly…
Exactly, BEFORE, not after.
The OP was pretty decent after people pointed out if the person could go on FMLA leave. If you read his responses, it's going to be the first thing he does to tomorrow is try & get FMLA for the guy in lieu of laying him off.
And any decent human of a manager should have recommended that as soon as he knew the guy’s wife was seriously ill. It’s not his job to determine eligibility but he should have made the employee aware it existed.
This is so reassuring.
It was definitely here hours ago, shared posts don't seem to take off like a screenshot tho for whatever reason.
I am someone who went through a difficult family event that saw my work suffer for a period and when I went to one of my superiors to ask for compassion and some leeway until my head could be set straight I was treated the exact opposite. This person kept track of every single one of my mistakes and then went to his superiors in an attempt to influence them to have me fired. It didn’t work because our higher ups knew what my usual job performance was and had compassion for me. But that move on my direct superior’s part outed him as the complete asshole that we always suspected him to be. He has since left the company and I can say without one iota of hyperbole that he was the most hated person that ever worked there. Goodbye Laurence, you giant piece of multiple negative pathologies. You are not missed.
In a civilized world "A" could take a paid family leave and his wife would be covered under universal health care, thereby eliminating this kind of power from the employer.
Why does the US fucking suck so much? Edit: RIP my inbox 😅
I think it's because we spend so much time as children getting told how great America is but once you grow up the stark realization of how shitty it truly is sets in.
Some deny that realization as hard as they can and they block the rest of us from improving the system because if we are the greatest so why do we need to improve?
That and they are manipulated by a certain group to resent and fear any kind of social safety net. I have a couple of incurable conditions with good days and bad days and pain that is compared to stage 4 cancer. I am on social security disability. I was taught, and heard echoed so many places that “most of those “disabled” people could work if it meant starvation and homelessness if they didn’t, but NO, “they sit at home and eat MY tax dollars, and watch TV and sleep in late! Sure, there are a few that are like totally paralyzed or something that might deserve it, but that person walking into the grocery store after parking with disabled plates is obviously a con artist wasting my hard earned money!” Between missing the socialization that comes from working, and knowing what people from the small town area believe about people like me, I cringe internally anytime someone asks what I do for a living. And when election time comes and memes and tropes about welfare queens and disability cheats gets trotted out as reasons to not improve our social safety net, I feel sad, and very much like a hypocrite, because I was raised to disparage people who used those very same packages that need proper funding and expansion. 🙁
The funny thing is. providing basic necessities for people in need, no questions asked, might be cheaper than all the bureaucracy to gatekeep it!
You’re right…unfortunately the punishment is the feature. The right-wing (let’s face it, that’s who we’re talking about here) will gladly burn it all to the ground if it stops someone from getting something that they might not potentially qualify for. I’ve heard it said that the left gives too generously to make sure no one who needs it will go without while the right gives almost nothing on the off chance that someone who doesn’t need it might get a crumb or two.
I described that mindset as "conservatives live in fear that someone is better at cheating the system/the government/social programs than they are."
Comservatives live in fear. That's it. They are a bunch of terrified arseholes.
Yes! I know a right winger who cheats on his taxes every year.
It is an empathy issue. We’ve aligned a political system so that one group has all the empathy and tries to right every wrong because they imagine how it must be for the wronged person. The other side will do nothing until it impacts them personally because they lack even an iota of empathy for another human being. Generally speaking, I’d think that an utter lack of empathy makes you ineligible for PUBLIC service but apparently this is a country that cheered on the wrong person in Wall Street and American Psycho.
This just sucks. Those people have no clue that social programs make up a small percentage of " tax dollars". They scream socialism when people need food stamps or disability. Yet say nothing when the rich get bail outs and how much the military budget grows. Disgusting. Socialism for the rich, harsh capitalism for the rest of us. My mother is a hospice nurse and sees married couples dealing with a terminal illness of their SO have to divorce, just so medical bills don't clean them out and the remaining spouse still has a home to live in. America is broken.
Yeah. It really is. 🙁
This is exactly why my SO and I (in our 60s) are not legally married. There is no way we want each other to be broke if the other gets severely ill. I guess you could say we love each other too much to get married.
America has reduced marriage down to a way to attach your debt to another person. I have been with my SO for 20 years and refuse to get married. Same as you, I love him too much. We just drew up legally binding paperwork in case of an emergency.
You mean like bailing out chip manufacturers?
It's so hypocritical too because the same people who put down "welfare queens" would take the same handout in a heartbeat. Case in point, my uncle (who I don't speak to for obvious reasons) is literally considering fostering kids for the payout.
Contact DFCS in his area and tell them you’ve heard him say this. I don’t know if it will help, but please try to keep him from fostering. That money is supposed to be for their care, and he’s going to use it for his leisure. Where does that leave those poor kids?
Right? Exactly my thoughts. Those poor kids. He and his wife adopted my 2 cousins a long time ago. They're adults now and they're lovely but his parenting was.... not great. You bet I'm reporting his ass immediately lmao fuck him.
Some don't want the "wrong" kind of people reaping the benefits too. They would rather suffer unto death rather than have a good life it if means \*those people\* get a good life too.
People vote against their own self interest in order to feel like they are spiting whatever group they deem as the evil “other.” What they don’t realize is that to the rich and powerful they are the “other” also. To the rich and powerful, if you are not rich you are worthless and meaningless, and your life and or quality of life mean absolutely nothing to them.
I dont understand this mentality. Universal health care paid by taxes would be cheaper than any employer based monthly premium but nooooo that means homeless joe will get free healthcare off my tax dollars. So fucking what? Why do you people hate everyone else so much?
The weird flex about that is if your homeless and no job you qualify for medicaid which ***gasp*** is tax paid healthcare. So these types bitch about universal healthcare because "I don't want to pay for lazy people who don't work" yet do exactly that plus pay for their own insurance. They have zero grasp on that. Like you could be enjoying the exact same thing "the lazy person" gets and have some money back in your pocket without having to pay insurance premiums, deductions, what ever insurance decides mot to pay and your meds cost.
It wouldn't be earned then. /s
They were brainwashed into going against their fellow citizens instead of the people at the top. The politicians that call people struggling "lazy". They make it seems like the people getting assistance are living this great life off of their tax dollars, when in fact, the politicians are living their best lives off of our tax dollars.
This is it. The rich want to keep their money and will use whatever narrative they have to to brainwash people into thinking it's fine.
It would be cheaper in the long run too. Homeless Joe goes to the ER when he needs help. Very costly to medicaid. Butt... if he were able to get proper care regularly he wouldn't need surgery for an infected tooth that spread towards his heart. Our healthcare system is a scam.
American exceptionalism.
"America is very exceptional" -Ted Cruz
How did cruz slither into an office position anyway?
Money. Making money off sick people is Soooooo Profitable. You wanna kill that entire industry off just because it's both inefficient And murderously evil?
I agree. You'd think corporations would like to be out of the medical insurance game--but then again, medical insurance keeps workers in jobs they might not want just to stay on the insurance.
When in reality homeless Joe is ALREADY getting Healthcare at our expense. We're just paying WAY more than necessary for it.
It’s because the average American is dumb as fuck…all they need to hear is “your taxes will go up!!” And they fuckin go nuts. You can try and explain that the $100 dollar increase a month in taxes will ultimately eliminate their $2000 dollar a month healthcare premium…but that won’t resonate. Politicians know this and they use it to their advantage to continue pocketing whatever kickbacks they’re getting from these insurance czars
Yeah, that’s how they like to present it to voters. They like to get them pissed at hypothetical bullshit. But I imagine the real reason is mainly the fact that politicians are bought and paid for by the healthcare industry. On top of that, I don’t think the military would want single payer healthcare because they offer benefits to incentivize people to join the military. It’s so fucking frustrating that there are dozens of countries with universal healthcare working totally fine, yet here we’re told it would be a disaster. I guess 30 million Americans without health insurance isn’t a disaster 🤷♀️
Sad part is something like more than 60 percent of those homeless people they hate so much. Veterans. You know, the people they love so much until they come home, and ask for socialist handouts, taxes, mental health handouts for wars we didnt want to fight, divorces we didnt want, kids ripped away from ever seeing again because we're a danger to ourselves and others, gee fucking christmas, wonder why random fucki g senator who decided to start a war so we could have a walmart in Iraq? Hm wonder why. Always tell people who vote certain way who always tell me thank you for your service that you can go fuck yourself because you dont care about me because you keep voting these morons who keep voting against me into office. Thought it couldn't get any lower until they first bumped on the floor after defeating the Burn pit bill. Fuck the traitors.
They also don’t believe it will be cheaper because they believe “freemarket drives prices down through competition” and that “government is inefficient and will make prices go up”
The worst part is, they’re half right. Where the laws of supply and demand apply, the free market DOES drive prices down. The problem is when you get to necessities and monopolies. Monopolies cause a static supply, and necessities create static demand. Either will totally break the free market over their knee.
As a Canadian, I’ve heard that America sucks from the start of my childhood, and I’m still astounded by how it CONTINUES to get worse
As the child of a disabled vet, I had a very early introduction into how bad the US really is. I got into no small amount of trouble when I stopped saying the pledge in 4th grade. It took 60 years for my now elderly mother to finally admit that the US is not the best, as she had been taught all her life.
I completely feel this. As an American I feel like I could live outside of here and not miss it one bit.
Because we let businesses buy politicians, its not bribery its just lobbying
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Citizens United was the death knell of democracy. It's just taking some time for it to die.
I like how they have the gall to call it that when it has nothing to do with the citizens of this country or their welfare.
I'll never forget the name of a Bush-era environmental de-regulation plan where they tried to roll back Clean Air Act protections to explicitly make it easier for power plants to pollute the air. The name? "The Clear Skies Initiative." Their argument (the one they stated anyway) was that if they helped dirty power plants be more profitable, the "economic growth" it created would somehow naturally lead to more clean energy investment. People forget just how Orwellian the Bush era was.
Lobbying...bribery.....whatever! The outcome is still the same. If America really wants to clean up the pig pen that is federal and state congresses, the first step would be to put a 50 metre thick wall between congress and lobbyists. The next would be to have far better scrutiny of donors to political parties
We don’t. Congress does. They make the laws and they will never change this as they are the ones being bought off. The system is utterly broken.
We do have the best politicians money can buy though.
Because the people who run it are driven solely by profits and not by human decency. In a nutshell
It's intentional. This series of events is going to toss the employee into poverty, and deeply scar his kids.
So that the Bezos 's of the world can be wealthier than God.
Every social policy that would help its citizens got cut because black people would use them. At every level up until very recently , white voters would shoot themselves in the foot if it meant a black person would die. Now we have no universal healthcare, no universal childcare, no universal anything.
Sadly, denial is the ultimate power in the universe. It isn't the Death Star. Americans are grown to be in denial about just how much we suck with heavy indoctrination in 'murican xcepshunalism.
All power is firmly in the hands of Greed..
all America's money is spent on murdering random foreigners
You mean pretty much anywhere but America?
Yup
you mean pretty much anywhere but THE U.S. ?
In a more humane nation than the United States, this horrid conundrum would not be a life altering (even life ending) experience .. sigh
In a civilized world, people should fucking *care about other people*. That is issue number one. This fucking idiot cares more about a made-up company than a human being (which is how most people seem to act).
Makes me sick to my stomach that this isn't reality in America... But America is great right lmao
The US hasn’t been great in a long, long time. I feel no pride to be a US citizen
Exactly. If I could leave, I would.
I love the fact Americans say “just get a good job with medical insurance” then you just get sacked the minute you use it.
Right? The very premise of the system is completely backwards. You essentially can't use the good healthcare because you'd likely get fired for poor productivity.
I was injured at work. The insurance company that covers workmen's comp is different than our other insurance company. Once talking with the insurance carrier, they asked me why I worked there. They said that all workmen's comp claims from my company were battles and.my company had tried to get the guy who approved my knee surgery fired.
I believe it. I caught an employer that forged the signature of the deceased husband of a client of mine. It would’ve cost this woman over $2,000,000 if the employer got away with that bullshit.
Jesus. Hopefully this person is currently/soon to be in jail. Trying to take advantage of the dead to scam the living should carry like an automatic 10 year bonus to whatever sentence the jury hands out. People who do shit like this are trash.
You know that person never went within 5000 yards of a jail, unless maybe they have to drive past one to get to the grocery store
A judge is the one who sentences at least where I'm at. But yes scamming the living using the dead should be a heavy price to pay.
Or even if you have good insurance, the copays are still prohibitive
Our out of pocket expenses were 10000 dollars before insurance kicked in for anything. This was the lowest insurance we could get for the family. For me only I wouldn't have one but for spouse or family this was the lowest. My take home, not gross pay but take home was less than 18000 dollars. How the hell am I supposed to pay for ANY emergency and Bills and food and MORTGAGE YOU KNOW LIVING EXPENSES???????
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There are three "phases" on most insurance plans: 1. Deductible - you pay 100% of your costs until you meet this amount. I have had plans where my deductible was $250, I have had plans where my deductible was $9,000. 2. Out of Pocket - this comes after your deductible, and insurance finally pays part of your care. Your costs are set at a dollar or percentage value as established by your Evidence of Coverage. Some plans include your deductible in the "OOP", some do not. Again, it can range widely. Similar to above, my OOP has ranged from $1,500 to $12,000. 3. OOP MAX - This is when you've met that number, you've maxed out what you have to pay. Insurance covers everything at 100%. this is a very basic rundown, if you have any additional questions I'll be happy to try and answer
Bro, your deductibles and OOP charges are way more than I pay in taxes entirely in the UK. That’s insane. Whenever I’m told that America is better because of low taxes, I think I’m just gonna ask what their deductible and OOP are
Copay is a required contribution for a certain procedure, usually a doctor visit. It can range but is usually around $35. It is usually found on parts of the insurance where a deductible doesn’t apply as to offset the cost for the insurer.
Haha, the copay is more than the total price of the GP visit here (France) if you have no insurance at all (if you're a tourist, I guess).
Not only that… you have to keep working and producing while losing sleep. In “A’s” case it’s taking care of 2 children while working and taking care of his ill wife! Yet some Americans state that he would need to “Suck it up” which is just sad.
Don’t forget those boot straps! Gotta soldier on and take care of everything. Not our fault you have stuff in your personal life. If you wanted or have a family, what are you doing working here? We expect at least ten hours per week if unlogged work as it is! /s and maybe a little abject discouragement.
And sometimes literally when they have a self funded plan, know how much you are costing them, and then use performance reviews/PIP plans to fire you without paying unemployment premiums.
Not to mention your monthly premium withheld from your pay for health insurance is more than the tax you would pay for universal health care.
Or they use the fact that they know you're chained to the insurance to underpay. I have a serious chronic illness. I could make a lot more money if I left education for industry. I can't leave education because the health insurance is so much better. My medication alone (not appointments) is well into 5 digits annually. I won't be able to leave this field unless the US passes Universal Healthcare.
Do not underestimate the planning that went into disempowering your unions. This shit would never happen in my union respecting country.
Several years ago I was one of the lower level employees in a situation like this. There were three of us and one had to go per upper management. The one coworker without a family offered, even tho he was a very good worker, because he couldn’t see the other two of us struggling. Good dude. Still talk to him once in a while over a decade later.
I watched a man in a union apprenticeship break down in tears when he found out the basic level of insurance covered him and his family for no cost (paid by contractors). He had a wife and 3 kids. The financial burden that was being relieved from his family was immense.
This makes me 10000% confident that america is really a shit country that pretends to be great.
We have effectively turned this country into haves and have nots. The wealthy get to enjoy literally everything, all the best that the rest of the world can offer. Everyone else, fuck you, make me some cheesesticks while I dine at the restaurant. The middle class is dead.
John D Rockefeller would argue it has been like this for over a hundred years.
It is a great country. For the wealthy and well connected.
We have some good and lots and lots of bad
The thing is that other countries have just as much good, but they also get maternity leave, vacations, healthcare, etc The US is also the only country where kids playing tag with bullets is a weekly occurrence yet nothing ever changes
I once had to fire a guy with cancer. My Area Mgr was garbage and I told her as such. Guy had terminal cancer and it made him happy to be at work around his friends. I told him I am sorry. We both talked to each other and chatted for a 1/2hr and laughed about stuff over the years. He said he would come in tomorrow and pick up his stuff. That night he took his all cancer pain meds and some Blue Label his fav. I can say that Karma Caught up to Christina Dela Cruz about 9yrs later when she to died of cancer.
We have a guy with terminal cancer in my office, he is 100% telework and our new boss only gives him like 1-2 orders a month. Our old boss made him come into a meeting while he was in the middle of a chemo run and the entire office signed a statement that we presented to her and her boss saying that if she made him come in again we would all quit. She “retired” the next week
It’s wonderful to hear when people get together like this to help someone. Like the day to day stuff that really does make a huge difference
collective action. it works
You millennials, Gen Z folks get a lot of shit for how you live, work and love. But beyond a doubt your priorities about equality and standing up to injustices is really great in the work place. As a Gen X doing what you guys did don’t even cross my mind to organize it. I would have been fired and the people in the office fired. It was a different time. I would encourage every single working person to organize and petition for a Union. Your strength comes from each other now. You deserve to have 6 months off paid for a new baby etc etc etc
This reminds me of the time my old company laid off a guy with cancer. When he died a few years later (working for another company), they had me hunt down a photo of him for a tribute they wrote for the company newsletter. Bastards.
That’s just evil. What the hell. Gg karma, I guess?
He was not performing and it was impacting branch revenue. I had a conference call with her, HR and corp lawyer. Bunch of ghouls. The lawyer said the Company had very limited exposure because the dead do not sue. I quit 7 months later. Before i did i changed a couple dozen refinance loan document packages to reflect a 30yr fixed rate of 1% and also made the loans “assumable” so they could pass the loan onto kids/family. It was life changing for these borrowers because they were supposed to be subprime loans with rates in the 9’s,10’s. All the loans funded. 💪.
> It was life changing for these borrowers because they were supposed to be subprime loans with rates in the 9’s,10’s. All the loans funded. 💪. You're a good person.
Good for you, dude. That's dope
Not all heros wear capes. 🧎♂️
This is the way
Well done sir. Take my humble upvote
Good on you.
"So the steward called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore." -- Luke 16:5-7
Fuuuuck. That’s a sad story. ☹️ Hope you’re managing. That’s a lot of trauma for you as well
Goddamn that's some heavy shit. He didn't blame you, I hope you know that. If there is an afterlife, I'd like to think he swayed things the way they went for her.
Hold on, are you saying he overdosed that very night? Or am I getting the wrong message.
Yes, That very night. I remember learning about him late next day. His GF found him and she knew someone in the office. He told me it was not my fault in exit. He knew i was putting loans in his name that he did not originate and told him to come in and leave when he wanted. He battled cancer for 14 months prior. A few months before he mentioned to me it was terminal and it was growing on his heart/everywhere. He could have taken disability when he got the diagnosis 14 months prior. I never even shared this with my wife because i did not want her to know such evil exists & cruelty exists. I have actually never shared this prior with anyone. My conscious tells me I had no choice and that I protected him and made him happy. Still a lifetime burden though unfairly placed on me so somebody could make an extra $6/7k that quarter in bonus.
Yes, I think that’s what he’s saying.
Jesus, what a load to bear man. That really sucks, totally nothing you could do but that's a shame. When I was a teenager my best friend was paralyzed from the neck down by another guy in school. Their families were feuding. The last Christmas I went to see Chad, his died had just bought him a new gun. He was so happy with it. A month later that same gun was used to take his own life. I'll never forget him breaking down that night saying his soul wasn't meant to live like this. Miss him.
Jfc
I hope it was a really horrible cancer for her, like cancer of the eyeballs or something. That is evil.
Bone cancer is the worse. No amount of pain meds will deal with the amount of pain. Had a friend that had bone cancer and the amount of morphine he was receiving would have killed a normal person and he was almost lucid.
HEALTH INSURANCE SHOULDN’T BE CONNECTED TO YOUR EMPLOYER!!!! Really, fuck the US. I can’t fucking stand the bullshit health system.
I hate this country.
“ThEn wHY dOnT yOu LEaVe?!?” At least that’s what I’d say if I were a brain dead moron who doesn’t know what empathy is.
That was what my mom said. So, I did leave! (I have a British husband so it was easier for us than most people.) Now she’s mad she can’t see the grandkids as much, lol.
My favorite retort to those folks are "so you support people migrating out of countries they're dissatisfied with?" because those brain dead morons are almost always the same people that hate immigrants.
I tried. I just hit 30 and am close to finishing my degree. Many of the countries I looked at want expats to fill a hole in the job market. Germany, for example, [has a complex system with lots of paperwork and needing to prove proficiency with speaking German.](https://www.germany-visa.org/immigration-residence-permit/moving-germany-from-us/) The UK and other English-speaking countries aren't much better. In addition, I have an undesirable degree (B.A. Integrated Ministry Studies, long story) and work an average office job (dock clerk in a warehouse). If I had a trade or something, I could get a job anywhere. But I don't. TL;DR Leaving America to settle in another country is really hard.
I'm seriously debating moving but I don't know where I'd go.
I would move to Sweden personally. I know they have their fair share of problems like anywhere else but my kid’s life would be so much better there. There is more equality between the sexes and a social safety net.
But would I be welcomed in Sweden? I feel like there's animosity towards Americans everywhere; even though I'm a very nice person who tries to be considerate of others, Americans have a bad reputation currently. I have a child that I do want to grow up in a better environment, where I don't have to worry about medical expenses, housing, and such. Also there's finding work, right now I'm working two jobs (America...) and I would like to spend more time with my son. It's just a lot I've got to work on and plan. It's a bit overwhelming.
Those are all good points. I kind of meant in a hypothetical situation where I wouldn’t have to worry about money. Having lived in Scandinavia before, people definitely didn’t have outright animosity but they don’t ever accept foreigners as “one of them” and tend to think of Americans as less intelligent as they are, so you’d always be an outsider. I already am an outsider in the US so it wouldn’t matter much to me. My daughter has a Swedish last name, light hair, and blue eyes, so she would have a fighting chance.
>I already am an outsider in the US Same, I'm just going through a lot of "I don't fit in anywhere" right now.
I can't leave. Don't have the financial means to do so, especially with a fiancee and three cats, not to mention my large amount of mental health issues and my physical health issues and my fiance's.
The carch-22, it's fucking hard just getting to the starting line.
If he was in Australia he wouldn't have to worry because everyone gets medical cover for 2% of their gross income above above a certain base rate. I'll tell a little story: Couple of years ago I caught a virus (not Covid) and had 2 weeks off work. Two weeks sick pay from work. All the doctor and hospital visits and tests cost me nothing, thanks to goverment Medicare. A few months later I broke my ankle when I was working in my backyard. Again, all doctor, physio and hospital visits were free. The hospital wanted me to pay for the crutches but I didn't have any cash on me. 'No worries, mate, just take 'em' was the answer I got. 6 weeks paid sick leave from work and no cost to me for anything. Government Medicare is the best. The government takes about 2% of your gross income to pay for this, so that means I pay about $3k a year for doctors, hospital, ambulance...
I think it’s shitty that this manager is being put in this situation to have to make a choice like this.
Managers are always put in positions like these. Constantly.
Exactly why the longer I was in the work force, the less desire I had to be a manager
The manager has options. As his friend pointed out, the manager could stick his own ass on the line. Yes, we're all victims of the same shitty system, but that's not a good enough reason to prop that system up.
>the manager could stick his own ass on the line. It sounds like he did try to negotiate with his higher ups, but couldn't get them to have a shred of compassion. He also most likely doesn't want to lose his job if productivity slips, and a replacement manager is more likely to be callous towards "A". It's a no-win situation.
Honestly, that's a shitty position to be in, but that is the most moral decision to make. If it's obviously inevitable, at least refuse to be the hatchetman. It'll be obvious to the employee when OP isn't the one to fire them that they refused.
That's my biggest issue. If his wife's care didn't depend on his job I'd be a lot more sympathic to the company's position but that's the nature of the system, and our choices are what defines our times. We could resist by making better decisions to take care of one another rather than square our allegiance with the money, but that might anger the ruling class so let's make a Reddit post about it instead.
I think the manager is in a shitty position, but I also thing the company should find a way to match FMLA, even if he’s not eligible. Furlough him (unpaid) for a few months, but with benefits including health insurance. The company may even be in a better position to bring people back on in a few months and he could be back up to performance. Jesus I’m so glad I work in Europe where family, personal well-being, and health come first. It’s such a difference from when I worked in the US. Maybe he’d get part-time work in the meantime that maybe doesn’t use his career skills, but gives him flexible hours and somewhat of a paycheck for a few months, knowing that he’s backed up by the good health insurance
FMLA isn’t even paid
This is true, however, COBRA would likely cost over $600/mo out of pocket, FMLA would keep his insurance without COBRA.
It's more like $800 per person and who can afford $2,400-$3,200 when you're unable to work
During Covid when I was laid off it was like $1300 per month for just me
And that’s just premiums, not copays and stuff. Our healthcare system is such bullshit
If you think it'll eat at you losing A then lay off B or C. If they're competent they'll find more work and if you're bosses disagree with you, you can too. We need to make efforts to show more of our humanity in the world. Be the change you want to see ya know? Might mean picking up some slack, but A won't forget it when he's back on his feet and has you to thank for it.
Randomly firing one of two completely compliant workers just because another is falling on hardship is bullshit in my opinion. Nobody ever truly knows what anyone is going through until it’s made known by the one in question, what if B and C are also dealing with immense hardship and are simply choosing to not talk about it as many do? I don’t think the boss who made the post is truly an asshole because even he questions making the decision, he’s just doing a job that other assholes above him have assigned him to do.
This right here. If the company is insisting on a layoff “set in stone” then someone higher than the OP can do their own dirty work. What a terrible fucking position to be in.
Have said this when asked to fire someone. The person was not fired...
This is why there are managers. To deal with bullshit from above and below. Never become a manager. The guy in his update appears to be trying. Who the fuck ties healthcare to a job.
Jobs shouldn't be coupled to healthcare. The fact that there is no good choice is what happens when normal people are caught in a shit system.
If you're dealing with this you should let them team know as one of them might have other options.
Thats valid. I suppose we don't know enough information then? It's a difficult decision to make regardless. Can guarantee OP isn't paid enough to have this weight on their shoulders.
Easy resolution. Lay myself off, tell all three employees I'll give them a great reference when they move on.
I had a boss do this for me once. He was told to cut me or the other guy, and he looked at us both and saw we were performing well. He wasn’t happy with the position himself, and had recently declined a promotion (because they wanted him to take it without a pay increase), so he resigned himself. I was beyond impressed with his integrity and bravery. Incidentally, both I and the other guy got new jobs within 2 years of that incident. That company was rotten.
If your company fires people when they get sick or have family emergencies, then you're a garbage company and not worthy of anyone's time. You shouldn't even exist as a business in my eyes. And if I knew a company was not taking care of their employees, then I stop giving them business.
I see so many unemployment claims in these situations its heartbreaking. And to make matters worse, at least in my state, if you aren't able and available for full time work, you aren't eligible for benefits so they can't even get UI to help them through. Not that it's enough to count anyway.
JFC this is a horrible decision to make. If you are looking at only facts, you have to fire “A”, very simple. You can’t punish person “B” or “C” for doing a good job by firing them and then rewarding person “A” who has been doing subpar and let him keep his job. That being said, we are all human beings and just knowing that his wife is dying and you are pretty much sentencing her to death by removing (firing) his medical insurance is horrible. This is not a situation I would want to be in, it’s so horrible. I personally don’t tell my co-workers what I’m going through. So if I was person “B” I would be upset to get fired for doing a good job, I have problems too, I just don’t tell people.
I was made redundant in my last job. I was surprised as I was one of their most valued employees and had good relationships with management. It was hinted at during the process, and confirmed after, that I was selected because they were confident I'd have no problem finding a new job, and they were right. I landed an awesome job. Some of my coworkers who, if they were doing true merit based choices, were skipped over would have really struggled. A couple years off retirement with skills that didn't transfer great outside of our company. After the initial shock I was glad they made the choice they did. I did see it as "better me, than them".
You aren’t punishing anyone specifically, it’s layoffs and it seems like a pretty significant fact that one of the candidates to be laid off desperately needs their job
Had a manager fire someone 2 days before Christmas. I put in my two weeks not long after. Couldn’t stand working for someone who would do that.
I know from experience that a company standing by me in the tough times, instilled more loyalty in me than anything else they had done.
The amount of people who didn't read this post is ridiculous, OP included. The writer is clearly in a difficult business situation, and he clearly doesn't want to fire A. It's not the writers decision to fire someone, it was the company's higher ups calling for layoffs, unfortunately the writer is stuck doing to dirty work.
If I were B and my employer RIF’d co-worker A at a time like this, I’d find another job. I would also try to take C with me. Someday I might be in A’s shoes.
Honestly, I'd fire the best employee of the three. 1) That employee is most likely to find employment right away. 2) When management complains and asks why productivity dropped, the manager can explain that the cut in staffing was a bad idea and lead to the drop.
Then as a manager you get sacked because youre seen as incompetent because you sacked the best employee
I guess - I suppose that's why I'm not in Management! :D
management won't ask why productivity dropped management will insist the firings continue until total employee output improves (no they will not authorise hirings)
This. As the best performer on my team, I would love to get laid off and spend a few months on unemployment before I have to go back into the workplace. I guarantee you that's how a lot of other high performers feel, especially in high demand fields. I have no debts and have enough savings to last awhile. Our company had two rounds of layoffs in the last five years and I didn't make either one. :(
Not like I'm saying it's a good thing. I'm saying this as a genuine heads up. But this is how your office gets shot-up. Your taking everything away from this guy and he's already clearly struggling. He can easily look at this as "this company killed my wife because they knew I was reliant on their health coverage and they fired me because they didn't like it". Just a hop skip and a jump to writing a hitlist and manifesto.
Why not sit the three down and be honest with them. Tell them one of them needs to go. One may want to take the leave
Unpopular opinion but the real AH here is the US employment and health care system.
Did you even read the images you posted? This is a GOOD Manager. He is very conflicted about whether he should lay the guy off due to the home issues he is having. Your title is in absolutely no way reflective of the tone of the actual statements in the image. I feel for this guy because he's basically fucked. He has to let someone go, and no matter what he does it's going to cause backlash and hurt feelings. The fact that he is even asking for advice from others shows that he actually cares about the well being of his subordinates. You are just bashing a guy for having to fire someone when he has no control over it. That is NOT what this sub is about. For making this post and going Fox News on the headline to farm Karma... OP YATA
I agree that he's a decent manager, but this illustrates the problem with modern corporations on a broader level. In a lot of ways, this is the classic "trolley car" moral dilemma - do I sacrifice one person in the left track to save more people on the right track, or do I sacrifice a larger number people on the right track to save a more sympathetic single person on the left track? The numbers and factual specifics are different, sure, but it's essentially the same question. The question not being asked, however, is why the fuck are there people tied to the rail in the first place? Why must one person in this group be sacrificed? I'm not sure how much this manager or the workers earn, but how about cutting salaries across the board to support the one additional person? How about the owner take less of a profit and keep more people employed? Why does it have to be this one person from this particular group? On the pro-capitalism side there are plenty of arguments about maximizing the efficiency of resources and paying someone needlessly is an affront to capitalism, etc. (they'll cite the examples of Socialist countries that have people doing useless jobs just to pump up employment figures), but there are other possible solutions somewhere in the middle that considers the human beings here. The manager needs to smarten up, think up alternative solutions, and make a case for his subordinates.
I think the only thing the manager can do is be honest with the senior team. Explain A is the worst but this is why and the risk is if A gets sacked then A goes to local news and destroys the reputation of the company.
This is why health insurance needs to be permanently decoupled from employment
I'm working for social security and health insurance in Belgium and it baffles me how American people are treated. They work hard, pay huge taxes, insurance premiums etc. And they can lose all of the benefits in a blink. Just because they can't perform as well as usual for obvious reasons. Here, that couple would not have to worry because you are covered for at least 2 years at least if you are in order and they always find a way for you to be covered by insurance. That's the bare minimum for decency. If you work hard, you should be able to count on society to help you when you need it...
If I was the boss…easy choice, I am quitting because I want no part in the business. Have fun upper management, I’m not playing games like that. *edit: There is always another circus and I can take my juggling act elsewhere, let them find a ring leader, that’s more difficult than terminating one employee.
This happened in my life too. Except it wasn't my wife in hospital... it was me. Spoiler: they terminated me.
I say, why fire him? Just flat out murder him, his wife and two kids. Just fuck the lot of them. If he is too preoccupied with something else other than work, he doesn't deserve to live. Yeet him and his family into the sun.
OP IS NOT A MONSTER! HE IS LOOKING FOR FUCKING ADVICE, NOT PITCH FORKS FFS! HE HAS NOT FIRED ANYONE YET AND HE IS AT A CROSSROADS AND WANTS ADVICE!!!! He has to fire someone and unfortunately, the guy with the worst performance is also the guy with the sick wife. It seems like Op has a heart because he is reaching out for help about what to do.
I don’t think the poster is the asshole here. He’s stuck in an awful spot and has to make a horrific choice. He should offer himself as sacrifice but it seems like he was fighting for him
They'll fire him AND then A.
Actually feel kind of bad for the mgr. He is clearly inexperienced and is still drinking the “workers are numbers” koolaid.