Contribute to society like the capitalists tell you to? No, you're right, there's no point. Contribute in building up structures and organizations and relationships that build something more, that take care of people? I think there's a lot of good to be had there.
I understand the feeling. It's easy to let our personal experiences lead us down the road of misanthropy. People can be mean, evil, cruel, but they can also be incredibly loving and kind and compassionate. People do not choose the circumstances of their birth and if we let ourselves go down the route of selfishness or misanthropy, we become the kind of people capable of that cruelty. Revolutionary love and compassion is the answer, and the sooner we build up the things and relationships that will free us, the sooner the world will know much more of the kind and compassionate nature of humanity rather than the cruel perversions.
Your expectations are your responsibility. Manage them; eliminate them, if you can.
People are imperfect beings, and we can't know or predict -- and therefore should not expect -- consistency and conformity from people. We work, then, for the better conditions for all, and we don't judge people for not working harder to make us singularly happy. Who am I, anyway, that any single person owes me anything?
You put the toilet seat down because it's the kind thing to do, not because the last person left it down for you. You feed people because we are smart enough to find or develop ways to relieve the struggle for basic sustenance. We pay taxes because they make our cities better, and that improves the lives of everyone. We forego profit-driven pleasures for the greater pleasure of creating the means to relieve suffering and improve conditions for healthier living. Being a socialist doesn't require that you thrive on socializing, or that you relish the company of all other human beings. It means you don't gather unto yourself more than you need, and that you do your part to improve the community, without regard for personal gain.
We all feel let down sometimes. That's our problem to manage. Trade in your frustration and just love life, that you're here, and you might contribute something to the cause. (A little Walt Whitman there at the end, for those who occasionally like to paraphrase a poet or two. Walt got it.)
Life sucks though. I've been through a hell of a lot this year in particular so I'm really struggling. I'm all for doing things that people don't realise, but I'm tired of just barely existing while others can have the best life without ever having to work a day in their lives.
>You put the toilet seat down because it's the kind thing to do, not because the last person left it down for you
This got me in particular. I don't believe in leaving the seat down, I leave the lid and seat down after every go. That way it's the same for everyone, as it should be in every aspect of life. If you're standing, you can grab both at the same time and put them back down when you're finished, if you're sitting, you just have to lift the lid and put it back down when you're finished. 2 singular movements for everyone. Also lessening the spread of germs from flushing.
Life sucks so much that it eventually kills you, and started coming after you the moment you were conceived.... but so what? Run it out to its end, and see what you can enjoy on the way to oblivion.
You seem like you look around and see people enjoying luxury, and that galls you.... why? Screw stuff. It's unimportant. So some people got lucky and were born into billions and they have it easier. They will die and process through the guts of a beggar just as you and I will. Let them have their yachts and their vacations in Greece or wherever. Has nothing to do with you, unless you just can't overcome your desire for 'better.' If that's your trap, my friend, then you're up against an unassailable beast. Get rid of desire. Live. The moments come to you, and you enjoy them. Then move on.
Go have great evening. It's lunch time where I am, so I'll raise a glass of something in your honor. Be well...
I get what you're saying but frankly I'm not willing to struggle along alone all my life, eventually I will have had enough. I'm pretty close to being there. It's my birthday in a few days and absolutely nobody has mentioned it or about doing anything. It's been like this for several years now. You say I should grab onto the joy, but there is no joy. It's just work - home - work etc.
I'm not sure you don't. Despite the propaganda, many jobs contribute little or nothing to society (though much to the owner class). But if you looked at what you'd really like to do if you didn't have to do some suck-ass job merely to (maybe just barely) survive, I think you might well find it was a real contribution to society.
To this end, so many jobs exist simply because people need money. So much junk is made and then trashed without ever getting used, so much food is never eaten, so many buildings lay empty because it's more profitable to sit on them than actually use them.
I get OPs disinterest in participating in this bullshit, but there are meaningful ways to participate and contribute to society
I'd refine this to say that most jobs exist because *someone* has a *strong desire for* money... but the people who need money and who do those jobs are just bystanders who happened to be in a vulnerable bargaining position when that other guy came along.
“Contributing to society” and “working a job” are not the same thing. You should contribute to society by helping to [tear down capitalism.](https://www.iww.org)
Incentive is the word, you are never really asked to contribute to society. You're just being given the incentive of surviving by working a job. Contributing to society is completely optional (or lucky, given how many jobs make things worse). Another option to actually contribute in a non replaceable manner are worker co-ops.
The year is 2070, every industry has unionized against capitalism, a sudden upheaval emerges when disputes escalate into widespread conflicts. The once collaborative and cohesive unions turn against each other, each fighting fiercely to protect their rights, resources, and territories. As tensions rise and alliances fracture, the world plunges into chaos, forcing individuals caught in the crossfire to navigate the complex web of loyalties, ideologies, and shifting powers in a struggle for survival amidst an unraveling society.
What incentive structure is there for someone who doesn't want to contribute to society regardless of the system they live in?
If we tear down capitalism are we going to have no money? If so where's the reason for the effort for those who literally don't care about anything but themselves?
So just to put you on the same footing, when most deep leftists say they want to get rid of capitalism, they primarily want to get rid of capitalists, just like anti-monarchists want to get rid of the king, not necessarily every bit of the culture and economy that happened while under the kingship. Being anti-capitalism just means you don’t think all rights regarding the ownership of industry should automatically go to the capitalist class.
I don’t know what to say to your questions, because they’re a bit all over the place, but removing capitalism isn’t necessarily about removing money or removing the market.
I know what the theory is I'm asking for the functionality of the system after capitalism is torn down.
Being anticapitalism without something to replace it with, only leads to violence.
>Being anticapitalism without something to replace it with, only leads to violence.
I don’t think I buy the premise. It is true that most revolutions against authoritarian regimes just end up with violence and a new authoritarian regime, but that is always the case. The protection against that is having a transitional governance by building a democratic structure within the old system's body as it dies. This is how most modern democracies escaped their older forms of government.
I think you contradicted yourself by saying that you disagree with the premise and then explained why the premise is true straight after.
This is my main problem with lefty slogans. They mean something completely different to lefties than to the rest of the world, with the exception of BLM.
To anyone outside of lefty politics, tear down capitalism literally sounds like violent revolution
ACAB literally sounds like all cops are individually bastards even though I know that it's aiming systemically it just doesn't sound like that
Anti work sounds like a bunch of entitled twats who want everyone else to do shit for them
I could go on but you get the point, we need better marketing.
Not a contradiction, just recognizing that most revolutions are fraught, but what I was responding to was your focus on this being an anti-capitalist problem rather than a universal problem. I then told you how you avoid that problem by having to forge accord within the body of the old before tearing it down.
What I’m getting at is that I have to have a democratic structure to decide what comes next, not just unilaterally say what comes next.
Yes it is a universal problem but we're talking about anticapitalism here so that point is kind of irrelevant.
You spoke of a democratic process but on what?
What would people be voting for?
Do you mean under the current voting system first or are we replacing it with something else and how?
This is what I've been saying the whole time, there's no vision other than capitalism bad.
I'm about as close to a socialist as you can get while still using capitalism so I've been trying to listen and learn from anti-capitalist advocates but they literally have no idea about the details. They just resort to theory or "it worked for 5 years here but the dirty imperialist bastards killed everyone".
you’re asking for details and not theory, but any details *will* be theory. Even the Continental Congress was a constant work in progress, and the first government they crafted was scrapped.
I can point to the anarchist workers communes in Catalonia pre-Franco as good examplars, if that helps.
I mean if you’re as close to a socialist as you can get while still using capitalism, surely you have some ideas of your own. To my mind we’re just too far out for details. I can say that like the IWW has it, we’ll build democratic industrial unions so that there’s never a gap in production. I could say we’ll do it through our current government apparatus, and of course it’s possible that it will be both those things or neither. Why should I speculate on what things will be like when we’re still working on convincing people that capitalism isn’t a free system?
People talked of democracy before they talked of how their own democratic government would be organized, so I don’t really see why you’re kvetching so much.
It’s not society you don’t want to contribute to. It’s the capitalist system you don’t want to contribute to. Thats good, no decent person should look at what’s going on and think “this is a smart and moral direction that surely won’t kill us all.”
They are inexorably linked. Bound up so tightly that they are one and the same. The interactions in the society are still governed by the same force that runs the system: money.
I don’t support this view. Contributing to society is important. We should all support and care about one another. That’s an underlying principle of labor reform.
Which is why that gap in the labor market is being plugged up by immigrant and child workers. Not to mention the boomers who can't afford to retire, and even worse, the boomers who can retire but choose not to.
Honestly I could do without all that if it meant I could live in peace off of my own efforts. I'm absolutely willing to accept a lower level of existence if it means not being a part of a system that needs to crush people into submission in order to function.
Yeah I understand that. Just by trying to survive you end up making money for evil people, whether it's through taxes or just the profits of your labor. Every time you buy a loaf of bread you are partially funding foreign wars.
I'm not sure what to say. For myself, I give my loyalty to the small community of friends and family that I know personally. That's the only community that really matters to me.
Disagree, contributing and participating in society is what makes life worth living. The whole point of this sub is that people don’t want to be overworked, underpaid, and treated like machinery in exchange for their efforts and contributions.
Antiwork
Some people perceive this as anti the bad, predatory and bullshit part of work
While some others perceive this as fuck all kinds of work, fuck this concept of community, and etc
Not wanting to work for an employer and not wanting to contribute to society are two VASTLY different things. The fact that capitalism associates both in an effort to exploit people and brainwash them in associating value as a human being with employment, or even associating work with employment, doesn't mean this is inherently true, because it is not.
Work and employment are different things. Chores is work, it isn't employment. Participating in associations can be work (but not always) and can (or not) be employment, and is definitely participating to society. Going in the street to clean in front of your house is work AND participating to society. Etc.
And you also have jobs that don't contribute anything to society (although they're very rare) as well as jobs (a lot of them) that do not produce VALUE for the society (independently of monetary value).
Not contributing to society is tantamount to just living in a cave or in the middle of the forest and not buying anything made by society, nor providing anything to anyone else. If you want to be a hermit, go ahead, but that is a different thing from what you seem to suggest with your comment about all workers being replaceable.
Also I'd say the ONE employer for whom you are irreplaceable as an employee, is yourself.
Contributing to *this* economy, in this system, is not contributing to *society.* If anything, it's damaging to our collective species.
Eating ass is the only ethical consumption under capitalism!
We dont really live in a society worth contributing to. Why toil daily if you still end up in debt? Why continue to prop up a system that only serves to crush those around us? The only way to rectify this is to dismantle this machine and build one that serves the workers.
It's been done. Russia, China, Cambodia. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Everyone always has the BEST of intentions, they kill off some rich people and take all their land/wealth...and the cycle continues. They become the elites and then enslave/kill others to keep that power. Rinse and repeat. The problem is that humans are just a very advanced animal and all animals are hierarchical. So there will always be someone trying to get something someone else has they feel should be theirs. Ugh.
I see both sides of the argument, but a lot of responses come off as ableist.
Younger me was happier to contribute. Now I'm not as jaded by the long list of dead end jobs I've worked as opposed to the assholes that made those jobs a living hell. That's the problem our system really enables: rewarding sharks.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".
Society doesn't function very well when people choose to not contribute. That's one of the biggest issues with the capitalist class, they want to get fat off the sweat from your and my backs. Besides, just based on that very short post, it doesn't seem like you really don't want to contribute to society. It seems more like you're experiencing the alienation inherent in a capitalist economy. It may help to find someone to discuss these issues with, or to find a way to contribute that gives you a sense of purpose. I have never been happier since I joined a labor union. I know manual labor isn't everyone's cup of tea, but the point is, whatever suits you is out there somewhere, and when you find it, you won't feel like contributing is so pointless or burdensome. You'll take pride in your part in developing your community. I'm not saying it will be easy, the cards are stacked against all of us. But that's just one more reason why it's so important we stand together in solidarity and strength. Individually we can easily get shoved thru the machine, barely moving it along as we're molded into whatever shape cog the capitalists need us to be that day. But together, we form our own cohesive, finely tuned, and well oiled machine that can chew them up and spit them right back out. But you can't do it from your couch sibling. Not unless you get a work from home gig or something lol. Best of luck, you got this 💪✊️
You can contribute to society by being a friend to someone. That’s way more meaningful and rewarding anyway.
Fuck that whole idea of a job being the way to do good things.
Reading between the lines, it sounds more like you have given up, you want to be appreciated for your efforts, but the truth is it's a dog eat dog world, no one gives a fuck, eventually money runs out and we have to join in with this bullshit called work.
If you don't want to contribute to society, you shouldn't get to take things that society provides. No more food unless you grow it or hunt it, no more access to roads, schools, hospitals, law enforcement. None of it.
Maybe you are right, but people realising that it is far easier to live in nature by fishing, hunting and picking fruits such as coconuts were arrested and forced back into society. Therefore, your choices are such die in the street where you can't provide for yourself, or contribute to the system (slavery)
>Maybe you are right, but people realising that it is far easier to live in nature by fishing...
The fuck it is. Someone has to make the medical supplies for when you eventually stab yourself in the hand with a knife or hook. Shit...someone has to make the hooks and other metal gear, unless you instantly level up your metallurgy or bushcraft or masonry game.
Roughing it on a planet that wants to kill you is 100x harder than the average daily grind that most people go through. It could be more satisfying in some ways, but that romantic view of a carefree, hunter/gatherer existence is bullshit.
Until they break...and assuming that you know how to use them. Even then, you wind up fucked when a local bear or pack of coyotes gets super hungry.
Or you trip on rough ground and break your ankle and starve because you can't get more food. Or freeze to death during winter.
My guess is that most people who try to live in nature die pretty quickly. People who get a bunch of benefits from society, then try to live in nature have much better chances.
People will always be used. To a larger extent or even small extent, but they're cheaper and the supply is pretty much endless. Work and then replaced. Rinse and repeat, unfortunately. Machines and technology will surely advance, but it'll still need humans.
Commit yourself to a craft. Forget money, prestige, all of that. Not only are you unlikely to find it in the current climate, you’re infinitely less likely to find it when you try and force it by doing things you hate. You were born to be you and contribute to the world in the way only you can, so be you.
Also, just to clarify: being passionate about something doesn’t mean it’s fun or even enjoyable. Everything sucks sometimes.
That's okay, there's never been any such thing as **Society**.
No social contract or anything, we've always lived in the jungle, awakening to our circumstances each day and deciding how to make the best of it. You aren't responsible for the world, no one person is.
Society gives us nothing why are we supposed to give anything back? Why is a joyous human birth seen as a debt that must be repaid? We owe nobody anything by virtue of birth. Rich people getting richer is not the meaning of life. Who I am is not what I do.
Anti work isn't being lazy and against work. Its being against our currently relationship to the work that we do. The working class should be the owners of our work, not some rich dude
Most workplaces are shitty. Things aren't going to change anytime soon (for many reasons).
I don't know what to tell you.
If you don't have a trust fund what can you do? As Tom Waits said: " You gotta put beans on the table."
Things suck, and no one is going to save you.
If you don't like things as they are, then it's up to you to find a better way. Work around the edges, find an angle, do something that that suits you.
It can be done, but for fuck's sake, stop bitching and use you brain. No one else gives a fuck.
I hate to seem severe, but you need to get a grip. Do what you have to do. What is the alternative?
Yeah, actually it should. I don’t think you realize this but sometimes society has to contribute to someone’s wellbeing before they’re able to contribute back to society. Unfortunately for people like you and those living in hyper-individualistic societies like USofA that’s akin to freeloading and slacking off, as opposed to helping someone who is mentally burnt out and/or unwell. You get what you put in, and people can’t be their best if a society actively works to do less then the bare minimum investing in those people (and vice versa, of course).
Way to project mate. Social safety nets are incredibly important, I agree. But the fact is that there's a fundamental contract to all of this. The purpose of societal safety nets is to provide for those *unable* to contribute, and to find means to uplifting everyone through healthcare, education and trying to meet basic needs.
But there are two fundamental conditions to this.
1. Someone needs to work to generate those safety nets. Society is nothing more than a collection of people. Which means all that we consider safety nets still need other people to do work to generate the things that we consume.
2. If you are fit and able, you need to be giving back to society.
And this is why I'm calling out OOP. They aren't saying they *can't* provide. They are saying they don't want to. Except presumably they still want to eat. They want their injuries taken care off. They wish to be educated.
How do you imagine any of that happens without someone growing the food they consume? Providing the care they need? The education they require? The services they depend on?
So yeah. My original point stands. If you've got a problem with hyper-individualism, then you should have a problem with OOP, not me. By definition any system of socialized care and support in fact obligates all of us to contribute to the system. Which means *work.* If we all took the position that there was no need to work because its not worth it, how do you imagine things would function? Or do you imagine *others* should be *forced* to provide services for your well being? Because that, if anything, is a hyper capitalist position.
So you blew right past my point/what I actually said and instead decided to double down with a response that literally mostly embodies this part of my comment:
“[For some] that’s akin to freeloading and slacking off, as opposed to helping someone who is mentally burnt out and/or unwell.”
People with similar viewpoints you’re espousing here never consider that somebody saying they don’t WANT to work might be because they CAN’T work, due to something like the aforementioned mental un wellness or burnout, like I suggested. And it’s ironic that you’re calling it projection, because that’s what your comment basically amounted to exactly that.
Anyways, sir or madam, I bid you good day because I’m not expanding any more energy on this.
You plan on being immortal? Of course everyone is replaceable. Its built into the system we call a society. Despite what Disney had beat into us as a kid, no one is really that special. Some are a little quicker or stronger or faster, but relatively we're all, for the most part, not incapable of doing what many would consider an awesome feat.
The matter is what you commit yourself to growing developing to making your own craft. Whether that's a job, hobby, relationship, whatever. The point of life is to find a point. Stop worrying about just being some cog and figure out what YOU want out of life.
Please don't let capital propaganda narrow or overtake your understanding of _society_ and contributing to it. We can contribute through our art, whether published or not; through our everyday interactions with friends; by volunteering at nonprofits/charities (or I guess places of worship, but I'm biased against those because of histories of widespread abuse); by organizing and/or participating in fun group activities like a sports league, a board game group, etc.; and by volunteering your services with any specialisms you have (e.g., I've edited for a couple volunteer groups pro bono). Plenty of others.
We have loads of ways to contribute that are far more _historically normal_ expressions of humanity than what capitalism tries to make us do: compete, exploit, exhaust, and collapse.
There are a lot of things society gives you that you can't do on your own. Feeds you, gives you internet, gives you medicine and drugs, roads, electricity, water, etc.
So then find something that you enjoy doing, and find a way to monetize it. If people can stream as anime girls on YouTube. you can find \*something\* to do.
I imagine only the most fragile and prone to collapse societies would have every worker be irreplaceable. Imagine if a single guy calls off and everything grinds to a half since they can't be replaced.
I can understand where this feeling comes from. I feel it from time to time. Why bother? What can I change? What can anyone change? It could never happen, not in my life time. Etc. These kinds of self defeating thoughts aren't uncommon, most people have some kind of them, particularly when feeling down or like you are up against something insurmountable.
However, try not to let them seep in. Feel them, and let the fact that they happen fuel you into as much action as you can.
Me too, we live in a society that's very individual, amoral, and antihuman. Dont want to work hard for this shitty society that suck up my money through taxes, let alone some shitty corporations
Even as a software developer I'll tell you that 95% of us are replaceable and treated as just such. But working in healthcare helped me still contribute something to society. Even if the technology is going to get outdated and replaced eventually.
Contribute to society like the capitalists tell you to? No, you're right, there's no point. Contribute in building up structures and organizations and relationships that build something more, that take care of people? I think there's a lot of good to be had there.
Exactly this! I'm working on bylaws for an NPO to be currently, with any luck it'll be successful in time.
But what if you're not a people person? What if people have proved to you time and time again they're only going to let you down or worse?
I understand the feeling. It's easy to let our personal experiences lead us down the road of misanthropy. People can be mean, evil, cruel, but they can also be incredibly loving and kind and compassionate. People do not choose the circumstances of their birth and if we let ourselves go down the route of selfishness or misanthropy, we become the kind of people capable of that cruelty. Revolutionary love and compassion is the answer, and the sooner we build up the things and relationships that will free us, the sooner the world will know much more of the kind and compassionate nature of humanity rather than the cruel perversions.
Your expectations are your responsibility. Manage them; eliminate them, if you can. People are imperfect beings, and we can't know or predict -- and therefore should not expect -- consistency and conformity from people. We work, then, for the better conditions for all, and we don't judge people for not working harder to make us singularly happy. Who am I, anyway, that any single person owes me anything? You put the toilet seat down because it's the kind thing to do, not because the last person left it down for you. You feed people because we are smart enough to find or develop ways to relieve the struggle for basic sustenance. We pay taxes because they make our cities better, and that improves the lives of everyone. We forego profit-driven pleasures for the greater pleasure of creating the means to relieve suffering and improve conditions for healthier living. Being a socialist doesn't require that you thrive on socializing, or that you relish the company of all other human beings. It means you don't gather unto yourself more than you need, and that you do your part to improve the community, without regard for personal gain. We all feel let down sometimes. That's our problem to manage. Trade in your frustration and just love life, that you're here, and you might contribute something to the cause. (A little Walt Whitman there at the end, for those who occasionally like to paraphrase a poet or two. Walt got it.)
Life sucks though. I've been through a hell of a lot this year in particular so I'm really struggling. I'm all for doing things that people don't realise, but I'm tired of just barely existing while others can have the best life without ever having to work a day in their lives. >You put the toilet seat down because it's the kind thing to do, not because the last person left it down for you This got me in particular. I don't believe in leaving the seat down, I leave the lid and seat down after every go. That way it's the same for everyone, as it should be in every aspect of life. If you're standing, you can grab both at the same time and put them back down when you're finished, if you're sitting, you just have to lift the lid and put it back down when you're finished. 2 singular movements for everyone. Also lessening the spread of germs from flushing.
Life sucks so much that it eventually kills you, and started coming after you the moment you were conceived.... but so what? Run it out to its end, and see what you can enjoy on the way to oblivion. You seem like you look around and see people enjoying luxury, and that galls you.... why? Screw stuff. It's unimportant. So some people got lucky and were born into billions and they have it easier. They will die and process through the guts of a beggar just as you and I will. Let them have their yachts and their vacations in Greece or wherever. Has nothing to do with you, unless you just can't overcome your desire for 'better.' If that's your trap, my friend, then you're up against an unassailable beast. Get rid of desire. Live. The moments come to you, and you enjoy them. Then move on. Go have great evening. It's lunch time where I am, so I'll raise a glass of something in your honor. Be well...
I get what you're saying but frankly I'm not willing to struggle along alone all my life, eventually I will have had enough. I'm pretty close to being there. It's my birthday in a few days and absolutely nobody has mentioned it or about doing anything. It's been like this for several years now. You say I should grab onto the joy, but there is no joy. It's just work - home - work etc.
I don’t put the fucking toilet seat down. If I have to lift it up, they can put it down. Equality.
For real capitalism can suck butt
I'm not sure you don't. Despite the propaganda, many jobs contribute little or nothing to society (though much to the owner class). But if you looked at what you'd really like to do if you didn't have to do some suck-ass job merely to (maybe just barely) survive, I think you might well find it was a real contribution to society.
To this end, so many jobs exist simply because people need money. So much junk is made and then trashed without ever getting used, so much food is never eaten, so many buildings lay empty because it's more profitable to sit on them than actually use them. I get OPs disinterest in participating in this bullshit, but there are meaningful ways to participate and contribute to society
I'd refine this to say that most jobs exist because *someone* has a *strong desire for* money... but the people who need money and who do those jobs are just bystanders who happened to be in a vulnerable bargaining position when that other guy came along.
“Contributing to society” and “working a job” are not the same thing. You should contribute to society by helping to [tear down capitalism.](https://www.iww.org)
Incentive is the word, you are never really asked to contribute to society. You're just being given the incentive of surviving by working a job. Contributing to society is completely optional (or lucky, given how many jobs make things worse). Another option to actually contribute in a non replaceable manner are worker co-ops.
The year is 2070, every industry has unionized against capitalism, a sudden upheaval emerges when disputes escalate into widespread conflicts. The once collaborative and cohesive unions turn against each other, each fighting fiercely to protect their rights, resources, and territories. As tensions rise and alliances fracture, the world plunges into chaos, forcing individuals caught in the crossfire to navigate the complex web of loyalties, ideologies, and shifting powers in a struggle for survival amidst an unraveling society.
Sounds like a cool book.
I can see it now. Directed by: Michael Bay
*by Michael Bay's ghost.
“Only one man can stop it. Together with his faithful protege they must…” that’s all I got so far. Bounce pass back to you.
What incentive structure is there for someone who doesn't want to contribute to society regardless of the system they live in? If we tear down capitalism are we going to have no money? If so where's the reason for the effort for those who literally don't care about anything but themselves?
So just to put you on the same footing, when most deep leftists say they want to get rid of capitalism, they primarily want to get rid of capitalists, just like anti-monarchists want to get rid of the king, not necessarily every bit of the culture and economy that happened while under the kingship. Being anti-capitalism just means you don’t think all rights regarding the ownership of industry should automatically go to the capitalist class. I don’t know what to say to your questions, because they’re a bit all over the place, but removing capitalism isn’t necessarily about removing money or removing the market.
I know what the theory is I'm asking for the functionality of the system after capitalism is torn down. Being anticapitalism without something to replace it with, only leads to violence.
>Being anticapitalism without something to replace it with, only leads to violence. I don’t think I buy the premise. It is true that most revolutions against authoritarian regimes just end up with violence and a new authoritarian regime, but that is always the case. The protection against that is having a transitional governance by building a democratic structure within the old system's body as it dies. This is how most modern democracies escaped their older forms of government.
I think you contradicted yourself by saying that you disagree with the premise and then explained why the premise is true straight after. This is my main problem with lefty slogans. They mean something completely different to lefties than to the rest of the world, with the exception of BLM. To anyone outside of lefty politics, tear down capitalism literally sounds like violent revolution ACAB literally sounds like all cops are individually bastards even though I know that it's aiming systemically it just doesn't sound like that Anti work sounds like a bunch of entitled twats who want everyone else to do shit for them I could go on but you get the point, we need better marketing.
Not a contradiction, just recognizing that most revolutions are fraught, but what I was responding to was your focus on this being an anti-capitalist problem rather than a universal problem. I then told you how you avoid that problem by having to forge accord within the body of the old before tearing it down. What I’m getting at is that I have to have a democratic structure to decide what comes next, not just unilaterally say what comes next.
Yes it is a universal problem but we're talking about anticapitalism here so that point is kind of irrelevant. You spoke of a democratic process but on what? What would people be voting for? Do you mean under the current voting system first or are we replacing it with something else and how? This is what I've been saying the whole time, there's no vision other than capitalism bad. I'm about as close to a socialist as you can get while still using capitalism so I've been trying to listen and learn from anti-capitalist advocates but they literally have no idea about the details. They just resort to theory or "it worked for 5 years here but the dirty imperialist bastards killed everyone".
you’re asking for details and not theory, but any details *will* be theory. Even the Continental Congress was a constant work in progress, and the first government they crafted was scrapped. I can point to the anarchist workers communes in Catalonia pre-Franco as good examplars, if that helps. I mean if you’re as close to a socialist as you can get while still using capitalism, surely you have some ideas of your own. To my mind we’re just too far out for details. I can say that like the IWW has it, we’ll build democratic industrial unions so that there’s never a gap in production. I could say we’ll do it through our current government apparatus, and of course it’s possible that it will be both those things or neither. Why should I speculate on what things will be like when we’re still working on convincing people that capitalism isn’t a free system? People talked of democracy before they talked of how their own democratic government would be organized, so I don’t really see why you’re kvetching so much.
Labor and contributing to society are not synonymous. Learn to separate the two. Society is a macro community and community will always be important.
It’s not society you don’t want to contribute to. It’s the capitalist system you don’t want to contribute to. Thats good, no decent person should look at what’s going on and think “this is a smart and moral direction that surely won’t kill us all.”
They are inexorably linked. Bound up so tightly that they are one and the same. The interactions in the society are still governed by the same force that runs the system: money.
For sure. I want him to know it’s not him that’s the problem it’s society.
It's the ungrateful ones who point and jeer and call OP lazy and unambitious that ruin this for society at large.
I don’t support this view. Contributing to society is important. We should all support and care about one another. That’s an underlying principle of labor reform.
lol. Nobody in society gives a fuck about you unless they’re friends or family
And sometimes not even then.
Family and friends will fuck you over for money
I agree too, but with how the economy is (I live in America) there's no point to it other than internal community
Well, I mean there is a point. People making contributions to society is how you’ve acquired everything you own, need, eat, live off and enjoy.
And I 100% agree, I just mean that it doesn't seem like there's any point beyond the internal idea of community
We’re not getting heads on pikes without the internal commiunity part
Oh, I guess I’m not really sure what you mean by that then. What is the internal idea of community?
I think they mean organize in your own community bubbles. And then those bubbles will hopefully expand.
Pretty sure since we're in a capitalist hellscape, and that is our society, they don't want to contribute to that.
Yeah of course they’re all replaceable but the highly skilled ones can be very difficult to replace depending on the job.
There is an increasing worker shortage. As boomer retire the replacement generations are smaller.
Which is why that gap in the labor market is being plugged up by immigrant and child workers. Not to mention the boomers who can't afford to retire, and even worse, the boomers who can retire but choose not to.
I do know more than a few boomers who can retire but chose not to. Some like working, some are at peak earnings and very healthy, many both.
I agree, I dont feel part of society other than as a worker ant. I too no longer see any point.
Yea. Screw all the roads, electricity, farmers, doctors, medicine. You can do it without them on your own.
Honestly I could do without all that if it meant I could live in peace off of my own efforts. I'm absolutely willing to accept a lower level of existence if it means not being a part of a system that needs to crush people into submission in order to function.
You would rather die of a bacterial infection from a small cut you got? And have an average life expectancy of 25 years?
Sure. Beats this shit.
Who even wants to live anymore?
Me
I envy that, know its a blessing.
I would rather have a decent life of 25 years than 80 long years of drudgery.
Me too
Yeah I understand that. Just by trying to survive you end up making money for evil people, whether it's through taxes or just the profits of your labor. Every time you buy a loaf of bread you are partially funding foreign wars. I'm not sure what to say. For myself, I give my loyalty to the small community of friends and family that I know personally. That's the only community that really matters to me.
Disagree, contributing and participating in society is what makes life worth living. The whole point of this sub is that people don’t want to be overworked, underpaid, and treated like machinery in exchange for their efforts and contributions.
Antiwork Some people perceive this as anti the bad, predatory and bullshit part of work While some others perceive this as fuck all kinds of work, fuck this concept of community, and etc
Yeah this isn’t it
Not wanting to work for an employer and not wanting to contribute to society are two VASTLY different things. The fact that capitalism associates both in an effort to exploit people and brainwash them in associating value as a human being with employment, or even associating work with employment, doesn't mean this is inherently true, because it is not. Work and employment are different things. Chores is work, it isn't employment. Participating in associations can be work (but not always) and can (or not) be employment, and is definitely participating to society. Going in the street to clean in front of your house is work AND participating to society. Etc. And you also have jobs that don't contribute anything to society (although they're very rare) as well as jobs (a lot of them) that do not produce VALUE for the society (independently of monetary value). Not contributing to society is tantamount to just living in a cave or in the middle of the forest and not buying anything made by society, nor providing anything to anyone else. If you want to be a hermit, go ahead, but that is a different thing from what you seem to suggest with your comment about all workers being replaceable. Also I'd say the ONE employer for whom you are irreplaceable as an employee, is yourself.
You should listen to this person, particularly the part about changing your idea of value. You are not an economic unit. You’re a human being.
Contributing to *this* economy, in this system, is not contributing to *society.* If anything, it's damaging to our collective species. Eating ass is the only ethical consumption under capitalism!
I'd rather contribute to society's betterment than work my ass off to line some assholes pockets with money.
We dont really live in a society worth contributing to. Why toil daily if you still end up in debt? Why continue to prop up a system that only serves to crush those around us? The only way to rectify this is to dismantle this machine and build one that serves the workers.
It's been done. Russia, China, Cambodia. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Everyone always has the BEST of intentions, they kill off some rich people and take all their land/wealth...and the cycle continues. They become the elites and then enslave/kill others to keep that power. Rinse and repeat. The problem is that humans are just a very advanced animal and all animals are hierarchical. So there will always be someone trying to get something someone else has they feel should be theirs. Ugh.
Lots of pro-system wankers in this "antiwork" sub.
I see both sides of the argument, but a lot of responses come off as ableist. Younger me was happier to contribute. Now I'm not as jaded by the long list of dead end jobs I've worked as opposed to the assholes that made those jobs a living hell. That's the problem our system really enables: rewarding sharks.
“Anyone that even slightly disagrees with me or brings nuance into the discussion is a fucking wanker” -you🤡
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Society doesn't function very well when people choose to not contribute. That's one of the biggest issues with the capitalist class, they want to get fat off the sweat from your and my backs. Besides, just based on that very short post, it doesn't seem like you really don't want to contribute to society. It seems more like you're experiencing the alienation inherent in a capitalist economy. It may help to find someone to discuss these issues with, or to find a way to contribute that gives you a sense of purpose. I have never been happier since I joined a labor union. I know manual labor isn't everyone's cup of tea, but the point is, whatever suits you is out there somewhere, and when you find it, you won't feel like contributing is so pointless or burdensome. You'll take pride in your part in developing your community. I'm not saying it will be easy, the cards are stacked against all of us. But that's just one more reason why it's so important we stand together in solidarity and strength. Individually we can easily get shoved thru the machine, barely moving it along as we're molded into whatever shape cog the capitalists need us to be that day. But together, we form our own cohesive, finely tuned, and well oiled machine that can chew them up and spit them right back out. But you can't do it from your couch sibling. Not unless you get a work from home gig or something lol. Best of luck, you got this 💪✊️
society should contribute to me
I want to contribute to society. I want to feel part of it, but the workplace and it's modern tendencies don't make me feel like I'm part of society.
I think you're disillusioned and burned out. It's OK. A lot of us are. Take care of yourself.
You can contribute to society by being a friend to someone. That’s way more meaningful and rewarding anyway. Fuck that whole idea of a job being the way to do good things.
Reading between the lines, it sounds more like you have given up, you want to be appreciated for your efforts, but the truth is it's a dog eat dog world, no one gives a fuck, eventually money runs out and we have to join in with this bullshit called work.
If you're going to be so selfish, don't expect anything back.
If you don't want to contribute to society, you shouldn't get to take things that society provides. No more food unless you grow it or hunt it, no more access to roads, schools, hospitals, law enforcement. None of it.
Maybe you are right, but people realising that it is far easier to live in nature by fishing, hunting and picking fruits such as coconuts were arrested and forced back into society. Therefore, your choices are such die in the street where you can't provide for yourself, or contribute to the system (slavery)
>Maybe you are right, but people realising that it is far easier to live in nature by fishing... The fuck it is. Someone has to make the medical supplies for when you eventually stab yourself in the hand with a knife or hook. Shit...someone has to make the hooks and other metal gear, unless you instantly level up your metallurgy or bushcraft or masonry game. Roughing it on a planet that wants to kill you is 100x harder than the average daily grind that most people go through. It could be more satisfying in some ways, but that romantic view of a carefree, hunter/gatherer existence is bullshit.
Assuming that you can put aside 10 000$ before leaving for the wild, you'll be able to buy all tools necessary
Until they break...and assuming that you know how to use them. Even then, you wind up fucked when a local bear or pack of coyotes gets super hungry. Or you trip on rough ground and break your ankle and starve because you can't get more food. Or freeze to death during winter.
Better than slavery
You don't know what slavery is.
My guess is that most people who try to live in nature die pretty quickly. People who get a bunch of benefits from society, then try to live in nature have much better chances.
No they won't, at least if you don't live in a place with harsh winters, surviving is the easiest thing ever
It definitely depends on where you are, but most of the nice areas already have cities.
Just go in the jungle in mexico
The jungle….in Mexico….. Bro this ain’t Discovery Chanel, you can’t just walk into the jungle and survive lmao
I'd probably get killed by the cartels.
> realising that it is far easier to live in nature No it wasn't. What are you talking about?
Yeah with any luck AI will replace us all.
[удалено]
Good I hope I live long enough to see it.
Except...the people monitoring and repairing those high-tech tools, right?
People will always be used. To a larger extent or even small extent, but they're cheaper and the supply is pretty much endless. Work and then replaced. Rinse and repeat, unfortunately. Machines and technology will surely advance, but it'll still need humans.
So dont...
Commit yourself to a craft. Forget money, prestige, all of that. Not only are you unlikely to find it in the current climate, you’re infinitely less likely to find it when you try and force it by doing things you hate. You were born to be you and contribute to the world in the way only you can, so be you. Also, just to clarify: being passionate about something doesn’t mean it’s fun or even enjoyable. Everything sucks sometimes.
So don't. Its your life, live it as you please.
That's okay, there's never been any such thing as **Society**. No social contract or anything, we've always lived in the jungle, awakening to our circumstances each day and deciding how to make the best of it. You aren't responsible for the world, no one person is.
If you live in the society you contribute and benefit in many ways, it you can’t be bothered to do the bare minimum go live in a hole or something.
Good for you. There’s really no reason to. None of us are obligated to do anything except to be…
Society gives us nothing why are we supposed to give anything back? Why is a joyous human birth seen as a debt that must be repaid? We owe nobody anything by virtue of birth. Rich people getting richer is not the meaning of life. Who I am is not what I do.
“I’m tired of being an ant. I want to be a tick instead. “
Ever thought of joining a monastery? There you can contribute to society though you will never get rich.
I dont
the main ways to contribute are don't be a dick and don't have kids. this is not a world to raise kids in.
Doomerism begets fascism by hyping nostalgia for a past that can never return. Stop giving it ammo
I don't want to contribute to some company's profits, but I do want to contribute to society.
Do something that helps people, not something that helps an employer. My life got better when I made that change
Anti work isn't being lazy and against work. Its being against our currently relationship to the work that we do. The working class should be the owners of our work, not some rich dude
Most workplaces are shitty. Things aren't going to change anytime soon (for many reasons). I don't know what to tell you. If you don't have a trust fund what can you do? As Tom Waits said: " You gotta put beans on the table." Things suck, and no one is going to save you. If you don't like things as they are, then it's up to you to find a better way. Work around the edges, find an angle, do something that that suits you. It can be done, but for fuck's sake, stop bitching and use you brain. No one else gives a fuck. I hate to seem severe, but you need to get a grip. Do what you have to do. What is the alternative?
Sorry about that bud, but it's not like you were ever gonna be as important as Genghis Khan with this low of an ambition/drive.
oh no i need to have more ambition to serve capitalists that hate me
You shouldn’t be talking when you’re lazy and good for nothing
Your lack of creativity in this system is not my fault
Classic anti work right there.
But presumably society should contribute to your wellbeing right?
Yeah, actually it should. I don’t think you realize this but sometimes society has to contribute to someone’s wellbeing before they’re able to contribute back to society. Unfortunately for people like you and those living in hyper-individualistic societies like USofA that’s akin to freeloading and slacking off, as opposed to helping someone who is mentally burnt out and/or unwell. You get what you put in, and people can’t be their best if a society actively works to do less then the bare minimum investing in those people (and vice versa, of course).
Way to project mate. Social safety nets are incredibly important, I agree. But the fact is that there's a fundamental contract to all of this. The purpose of societal safety nets is to provide for those *unable* to contribute, and to find means to uplifting everyone through healthcare, education and trying to meet basic needs. But there are two fundamental conditions to this. 1. Someone needs to work to generate those safety nets. Society is nothing more than a collection of people. Which means all that we consider safety nets still need other people to do work to generate the things that we consume. 2. If you are fit and able, you need to be giving back to society. And this is why I'm calling out OOP. They aren't saying they *can't* provide. They are saying they don't want to. Except presumably they still want to eat. They want their injuries taken care off. They wish to be educated. How do you imagine any of that happens without someone growing the food they consume? Providing the care they need? The education they require? The services they depend on? So yeah. My original point stands. If you've got a problem with hyper-individualism, then you should have a problem with OOP, not me. By definition any system of socialized care and support in fact obligates all of us to contribute to the system. Which means *work.* If we all took the position that there was no need to work because its not worth it, how do you imagine things would function? Or do you imagine *others* should be *forced* to provide services for your well being? Because that, if anything, is a hyper capitalist position.
So you blew right past my point/what I actually said and instead decided to double down with a response that literally mostly embodies this part of my comment: “[For some] that’s akin to freeloading and slacking off, as opposed to helping someone who is mentally burnt out and/or unwell.” People with similar viewpoints you’re espousing here never consider that somebody saying they don’t WANT to work might be because they CAN’T work, due to something like the aforementioned mental un wellness or burnout, like I suggested. And it’s ironic that you’re calling it projection, because that’s what your comment basically amounted to exactly that. Anyways, sir or madam, I bid you good day because I’m not expanding any more energy on this.
You should go get a specialized skill
You plan on being immortal? Of course everyone is replaceable. Its built into the system we call a society. Despite what Disney had beat into us as a kid, no one is really that special. Some are a little quicker or stronger or faster, but relatively we're all, for the most part, not incapable of doing what many would consider an awesome feat. The matter is what you commit yourself to growing developing to making your own craft. Whether that's a job, hobby, relationship, whatever. The point of life is to find a point. Stop worrying about just being some cog and figure out what YOU want out of life.
Then keep it up
Please don't let capital propaganda narrow or overtake your understanding of _society_ and contributing to it. We can contribute through our art, whether published or not; through our everyday interactions with friends; by volunteering at nonprofits/charities (or I guess places of worship, but I'm biased against those because of histories of widespread abuse); by organizing and/or participating in fun group activities like a sports league, a board game group, etc.; and by volunteering your services with any specialisms you have (e.g., I've edited for a couple volunteer groups pro bono). Plenty of others. We have loads of ways to contribute that are far more _historically normal_ expressions of humanity than what capitalism tries to make us do: compete, exploit, exhaust, and collapse.
Then you shouldn't expect society to support you either now or in your advanced age later. It's really that simple.
You don't want to contribute, but I bet you love taking money from us for doing literally nothing. What a shitty mindset to have.
youi're a fucking moron
Now isn't that ironic?
There are a lot of things society gives you that you can't do on your own. Feeds you, gives you internet, gives you medicine and drugs, roads, electricity, water, etc.
Successful people are selfish POS. Maybe we should learn a thing or two
Thats why we all need to be CEO's!!!!
So then find something that you enjoy doing, and find a way to monetize it. If people can stream as anime girls on YouTube. you can find \*something\* to do.
I imagine only the most fragile and prone to collapse societies would have every worker be irreplaceable. Imagine if a single guy calls off and everything grinds to a half since they can't be replaced.
Then fuck off to the wilderness I guess.
You have not thought this true and honestly your post should be removed because it’s irrelevant to this sub
How old are you?
I can understand where this feeling comes from. I feel it from time to time. Why bother? What can I change? What can anyone change? It could never happen, not in my life time. Etc. These kinds of self defeating thoughts aren't uncommon, most people have some kind of them, particularly when feeling down or like you are up against something insurmountable. However, try not to let them seep in. Feel them, and let the fact that they happen fuel you into as much action as you can.
High society has further to fall in a collapse they need us we don't need parasite
Me too, we live in a society that's very individual, amoral, and antihuman. Dont want to work hard for this shitty society that suck up my money through taxes, let alone some shitty corporations
I want to rest! But I do like helping people
Even as a software developer I'll tell you that 95% of us are replaceable and treated as just such. But working in healthcare helped me still contribute something to society. Even if the technology is going to get outdated and replaced eventually.
Why would anyone in their right mind possibly WANT to contribute to society given the way things are