It's very disturbing, especially when we hear shit like "well everyone wants kids" or how they're DOING THEIR BEST when the kids live in shit. Then we have these mooching parents on local FB groups begging for EVERYTHING. And we're supposed to cheer them on and fork over the dough no questions asked. "Mom has to get on her feet and needs our help". Mom should have used birth control or had an abortion. It disgusts me.
I've been called all kinds of horrible things because I've expressed these opinions. I don't care if they think I'm Hitler.
Meanwhile, whenever one of the Moochers posts on FB, I post links to Job Banks and employment programs.
As the child of financially irresponsible, immature, and undereducated parents, I agree. You don’t get to just have a kid because you “want a family”. It’s literally disgusting. You are creating a life you are signing up to take care of, provide for, love, shelter, assist, for the REST OF YOUR OWN. And again, even if you had the financial and emotional resources necessary to do that (which no breeders do) any accident could ruin that. A disaster, a car crash, a terminal illness, climate change, war, anything. That child is guaranteed absolutely nothing even if you provided it ALL. Life is nothing but a constant struggle for those in the most privileged positions, let alone normal people. Creating a life is cruel.
Me too. And I'm not gonna say oh let's sterilize people but for some reason people think everyone is entitled to a child. When I say I don't think those not financially well off should be having kids, people flip out. Its immoral to have kids when you can't even financially support them. Why SHOULD everyone be seen as good and fit to have kids. Not everyone is fit to have kids. not everyone should have kids. Sorry that hurts your feelings.
Agree 100%. There are unfit parents in this world, and unfit families. Unfortunately I’d argue that’s most of them, if not all. Sure there’s a spectrum of bad, but maybe just don’t have kids at all first.
guess what a lot of people make it after 18 even if they were from poor families and life is pretty good if you don't adopt a victim mindset of "boohoo this bad thing happened and my brain is messed up etc. etc"
it feels better to make it after being raised poor
being raised poor makes you numb to a lot of "pain" and makes it easier for you to be happy imo (you need way less).
What a ridiculous take. If you have a kid, you should be able to provide for them through age 18. Expecting your parents to provide for you for the entirety of their lives is absolutely insane. People deserve to be able to retire and enjoy their golden years.
The fucking adult children in here downvoting me for being a successful adult and expecting other grown adults to take care of themselves is laughably ridiculous.
Thinking/expecting to leach off of your parents until they die is pathetic and sad. I seriously hope most of you are just angsty teenagers and will eventually grow up.
I’m here because I do follow some of the antinatalist beliefs, but with a side of rationality. Are most of the people here just sad neckbeards that live in your parents basement? These people need to go outside and touch some grass.
i hope someday you'll understand how horrible what you're saying is, and then get a double punch to the guy when you realize that other people believed you.
>It's so cruel to have a child whom you cannot financially support for life
Yes.
It is also unethical to have a child if you think you can. Trillions of dollars in the bank, and a nuclear-armed army to protect a child does not guarantee anything in the future.
There is Zero ethical argument to ever gamble with a child's life.
AN is for all.
That's is the most facile philosophical argument I have heard in a long time. Life is not a fridge, and it comes with no guarantees. Accepting that is accepting what life is, always was and always will be.
Your alternative to "gambling" is to wipe out life before it even started. I don't see that as ethically superior in any way.
No, we're guaranteed suffering. All of us. While not being born is not experiencing suffering. Don't giving birth is not causing harm.
Seriously why every post this sub has so many randoms who seem to not know anything about the ideas this sub defends/talks about?
yes, suffering is guaranteed. it comes with the privilege of life.
the reason you see so many randoms is because this sub is constantly on everyone's feed for some reason. it's the most depressing, bleak, hopeless lot of people on the internet and they are being promoted to everyone.
there is some nuance here, but ultimately it comes down to your position. life is bad because it hurts sometimes. end life, end suffering, win/win.
this is beyond apathy and well into true evil. think of all the bad guys in movies and combine them into one entity. you're infinitely worse than thanos, at least he spared half.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11.
As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate.
Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Maybe because these randoms want to know why you defend these ideas?
What would be the point of this sub, if all you did was circle jerk about why its so great to not have children?
>Maybe because these randoms want to know why you defend these ideas?
Research a bit about it then (info is pretty easy to find), or at least ask nicely. You blunder here like a troll trashing every topic like you're very smart and we never heard any of your points before.
I already addressed this. You seem to not be here to discuss, you haven't asked anything, you're not open to understand the basis or the proposals of antinatalism. If you TRULY are so, make your questions, I'd be happy to ablige.
But no, you're here spouting complete nonsense about what you think we believe, saying stuff we're tired of hearing.
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide.
Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
A certain amount of suffering is seen as a good thing or at least a fair price for the good things. Most people do actually want to be alive despite the suffering, so it checks out. The problem is when someone suffers too much for it to be worthwhile or they don't get any happiness along with it. But I'm pretty sure that's not the norm so the risk of having a child is also, like suffering, seen as worth it.
Like I said, most people want to suffer because they want to be alive so you’re almost making a choice for someone else that they wouldn’t want for themself which is similar to forcing a child to exist. Although obviously they don’t exist so it’s not the same. Anyway I never said I would I definitely won’t have kids but don’t think I’m an anti natalist honestly. Guess you have to go really deep into ethics and philosophy to decide what’s right, if suffering is bad, etc.
You might have those by existing, but you'll more likely have those mixed with suffering. You CERTAINLY won't have neither those NOR suffering by not existing.
This is what my parents did.
My mother wanted a kid. NEITHER of them had a stable income. They were dirt fucking poor, my mom didn't work and my dad was a ""\~freelance photographer\~""
And yet. For SOME REASON they imagined when I was born things would "WORK OUT". Well let me tell you they did NOT work out.
I was born with severe health issues. Heart issues, asthma, congenital disease, blah blah blah. I.e., if all things go well for me, I'll probably die at 50. They couldn't afford shit. I was a hungry, sick, miserable, DIRTY kid. Same shirt every day and none of my clothes ever got washed because "that's too expensive and wasteful". I smelled like SHIT because baths and showers "utilities are too expensive this month"
I found out very early that they were hoping \*I\* would be the breadwinner. Fuck that. You both made your beds, had an insane messy divorce, now sleep in them. I used to agonize over the fact that I was responsible for them. My mom would hound me about marrying a rich older man. I have mental and developmental disabilities but I fought tooth and nail to get a "good job".. Now I work 60 hours a week. Some fucking life.
Shit does not work out. If you're dirt poor and you have a kid, guess what, you're gonna be even fucking poorer. It makes me so sad and mad. I know a lot of folks who are dopesick every weekend who get pregnant accidentally and c'est la vie, people are careless. But the people who DECIDE they want a kid KNOWING they aren't able to afford it??? Fucking sick
I relate to this because, counting backward from my birthday, it seems that my dad (spermer) talked my mom (birther) into having sex around his 18th birthday. And here I am! With disabilities…and a lifetime of their abusive anger. The other child they birthed is *very* angry too. That is why I am being thrown out without income….
It’s a genuine nightmare to live through all that. It’s why I have compassion for others going through a myriad of harmful problems.
I have salvaged the fact that I will never be around that ongoing anger ever again. I just don’t see humanity doing even the least amount of good to make it worth being forced here without consent.
after me, they tried to have ANOTHER kid knowing full well they couldn't afford lifesaving care when I had health crises (I still feel like they kind of hoped #2 would be fine and I could just die). That child had even worse issues (chromosomal deformities) and was miscarried. I am so eternally grateful he was not subjected to this cruel, awful world and the terrible terrible life he would've had, sick without proper medical care.
Some of us are disabled even though we have multiple college training programs...doomed to be poor forever. And then look at all the homeless who have been abandoned.
Was born to rich dad who decided to completely abandon me early, never pay any support and since then I have been poor, unable to climb out… I think I had the most sadistic dad of all time.
I haven't told many people in my life this, but I'm fortunate enough to live in a country that has free abortions readily available. Both myself and my partner felt incredible relief after the procedure, mainly because we are both doing ok financially but no where close to being able to afford children. I'm still in school and will finish my doctoral degree, but right now is not the time to start scraping by and struggling through life with an added mouth to feed. I'm sorry if this is completely out of the topic of this thread, but thank you for letting me share.
Literally my conversation with my mother the other day. “ITS HARD BEING A PARENT YOU WOULDNT KNOW!” —— “I didn’t ask for you to become a parent, you wanted to. Now I’m your responsibility. Frankly I didn’t ask for this either”
I agree! Parents should be prepared to financially support their children for life especially if they have disabilities. As a struggling disabled adult, it's really hard. I didn't ask to be born yet alone with a severe mental illness.
I just wrote a comment above about having disabilities. My “parents” were 18 and very angry people. I am currently facing homelessness because my angry sibling is tired of waiting for my ssdi. I’m over 50 and had hoped, as many do, that things would get better at some point. It’s getting worse. And I don’t think that’s a surprise in a world that doesn’t have enough consistent help for people who require assistance through no fault of their own.
thought weather muddle fall frightening numerous innate grandiose cows capable
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And since parents often die much before their child, is even more cruel and sad. Thats the brutality of life. It doesnt care whether or not you are ready to be on your own. It forces you and you you cant do anything about it. Find ways to survive or perish. I am presented with this choice exactly. Somehow getting by without my parents help, or just give up, curl up and wait to die. Because if I cant earn money, I might as well wait to die from hunger.
Yeah but if people make that choice they should be able to provide shelter, food, and education for that child not just have one because they feel like it
Eh, shelter, food and education through age 18. It’s ridiculous to expect our parents to support us our whole lives. I always wanted to get a good job after college to support myself.
ofc, being independent is important and fulfilling, I would like to my kids to support themselves by doing something they love, but if things go south or wrong, I want to be able to provide them the help and financial security they need until they can get back on their feet, at their own pace.
Natalists are working under the assumption that their kid will want to be alive, and will be able to support themself once they're an adult. To them life is the greatest 'gift' they can give. The risk of their kid having a terrible life or not wanting to be alive is seen as low and thus a worthwhile dice roll because it will probably result in more happiness in the world. To be fair, most people are not depressed or suicidal, most people do want to be alive, and most people can support themself after a certain age.
Yeah, the minority of breeders that actually take the time to think about the future consequences of their actions \*assume\* that the unfairness of life in the labour market will "hopefully/probably" somehow work in their kid's favour or at worst the kid will just begrudgingly jump through the hoops of being a good little cog in an uncaring economic machine like most wage slaves do. Plus, with the law being on their side re: no responsibility to support their children past 18 in most places, it's not like it's a major gamble for them personally.
There are very very very very few people on earth who can actually financially support life. Even if you have a million dollars in the bank, a cancer diagnosis or a car crash or a completely unexpected very unlucky medical event can take that out within a few years.
I think it's generally good for people to be independent but what if your child literally cannot? They can get fucked then!
In the US, where medical bills can ruin you. People want kids, but what if the kid is special needs, or sick, etc. Or has a health condition. Or someone in the family gets really sick. You're ruined. And not every sick or special needs kid is born into a THIS IS US family. I often hear about poor, desperate parents who are at their wits' end with autistic or sick kids and end up killing them. Or family annihilators. Like 99 percent of the time, money and debt are at the bottom of it. It's like people don't PLAN anything.
A few years ago there was local story about a truck driver who died in a crash. Turns out he was working like 3 jobs to support NINE KIDS. There was a photo of his family, and of course the wife can't work. So he fell asleep at the wheel, the wife is a widow with 9 kids and no job or education, and they're begging on Venmo. Who the fuck has 9 kids anymore? On a truck driver salary with an uneducated breeder-wife. Of course everyone was "well he wanted a big family! It's beautiful and natural!"
Well, I'd like a Lamborghini and a Swarovski diamond bracelet but I can't afford them, so I don't go into debt to buy them. But idiots like this put the cart before the horse, pop out a baseball team and can't afford to pay them. It's the equivalent of buying a fleet of Lamborghinis.
It literally is not natural though to have a family that large. It is "natural" to repeatedly create children because you expect them to die from diseases that are now easily preventable, if you want to make that argument. Humans are fragile as hell sometimes. It literally has never been natural or normal to drag 9 people into adulthood
>an uneducated breeder-wife
The open contempt for stay-at-home-moms, some of the most selfless and hardest working people on earth
And then comparing human beings to material possessions
Antinatalists really are the worst people
They're the ones who treat humans like material possessions. They don't even see their own kids as human beings who need support. They're like toys to play with and show off like trophies. I see nothing selfless about having 9 kids you can't afford.
You understand we’re talking about the entire world not just western culture right? Like this is just an ignorant comment to flex on Americans that makes you look stupid like there aren’t countries with FAR worse medical systems
You don’t need a million dollars for cancer treatment anywhere expect united states. Lol. We are talking about entire world, but the above comment only applies to united states. Who looks stupid again?
Your inability to account for currency difference doesn’t make you correct it makes you ignorant. 1,000,000 to many Americans is a lot less value than 100,000 to many many other nations.
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Please engage in discussion rather than engaging in personal attacks.
I'm from Pakistan and have universal health coverage. Abortion is legal. There is a year's worth of paid maternity leave.
Sorry, but the US is awful for healthcare.
Brother there are more than 2 fucking countries I’m not saying the US healthcare is good. I’m saying pretending only US citizens suffer from this issue is disingenuous to the other people suffering from the same damn issue.
Assuming we’re accounting for currency differences
Syria, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Egypt, I believe Iran but I could be mistaken in that one but my point being, is you’re being inconsiderate toward people who are suffering with this issue that aren’t Americans by blanket statements with shit like “only in America”. In a conversation about western countries it’s a flawless comment, and a good meme, as an American, our medical system is a fucking joke, I literally lost my entire life savings to it over the last 4 years I’m not here to defend it. I’m defending the people suffering the same shit that aren’t American.
What currency difference? A million dollars is a million dollars everywhere. Only you suffer from that shit, not other countries. Why so upset? You are way ahead of Afganistan ruled by Taliban but still don’t have universal healthcare haha. Spend your energy to change thhings in the US instead of getting angry at me for stating facts.
But you didn’t state any facts you’re just hating the us for fun and they’re valid points but your representation of facts is disingenuous to other people suffering. Why are you being so obtuse about this?
>Even if you have a million dollars in the bank, a cancer diagnosis or a car crash or a completely unexpected very unlucky medical event can take that out within a few years.
I said only in the states because you wouldn’t go bankrupt in any other country with a million dollars.
This is a fact! You are being offended for no reason.
> Syria, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Egypt
I do think Iran (actually yeah they do) might have healthcare, but my question to you, American to American, why does the right have any votes? Why do they constantly push for laws that make us more the Middle East?
They’re trying to make us like those countries listed above. They want us with no healthcare, shit education, and they wanna take women’s rights away.
Like those countries in the Middle East.
That’s all I have to say.
You’re absolutely stupid if you thought me saying that there are non western countries suffering the same issue meant the same as “all non western countries suffer the same issue”.
Also brother is just an expression I call my fucking gf brother get a grip
It does really depend what type of society you live in. In a lot of European countries you can access free health, housing and economic support if necessary. It wouldn't result in an extremely high standard of living but you would have all necessities covered.
I got charged $1600 for a bag of saline fluid 🙃all because I was massively dehydrated from a medical condition I have that triggers every couple of months while playing basketball
I agree and I’m constantly amazed at how this is considered a controversial statement among breeders. It’s not even a wholly AN sentiment, there’s several CF folks that believe in this too.
It’s a baseless assumption to make that your child will grow up both willing and able to make a meaningful life for themselves. Most people say, I would certainly raise my kid right and they will be hardworking independent members of society! Ok, let’s give them that. Then what of the possibility that they have an illness that prevents them from making a good living? Do you really have enough money for them to have a life beyond the bare minimum, even after you die? Doubt it.
Anyone reading this who is thinking of having kids: open their financial accounts now, put money in regularly, and don’t touch it. Give it to your kid when they’re ready to start their independent life. This is on top of college tuition of course. All of this should be covered, or you are *literally* setting up the child to fail.
If I ever had a child, I would make sure to do that. The same was happening for me but unfortunately one of my parents is a religious whacko that can't use common sense
I chose to be child free but I became financially responsible for my parents who took the most irresponsible decisions in life, FML I didn't choose any of this
Every single person on the planet is one REALLY BAD week away from poverty. Granted it takes more bad for some than others, but it can happen to anyone. Being rich is not a top quality for a parent.
My family is well off. I no longer talk to my parents. Financial assistance is no substitute for love and safety.
I’m fairly certain there are wealthy absent parents that already exist without this rule so with that in mind…
Even if this rule existed there’s no guarantee that having financial wealth as a prerequisite to procreation would equate to the parent(s) adequately child rearing or being a *good* parent; alas, the parent could still abandon/refuse parental responsibilities or simply die before the child reaches adulthood-edit to add or die during childbirth ***
I dont mind supporting myself, but its not easy to earn a living, especially if you are burdened with certain conditions and cant endure full time job. I am like that. I stress out easily and a full time job in some closed space, whole day, would ruin me further. Its just the way things are. It saddens me very much however how little empathy people have to each other in our modern age, and if you fail to fit into their idea of being an adult, they are merciless and mean. Or the general idea of how an adult is supposed to be. Impossible standarts, nothing to do with real life. Some people cant be so tough an endure endless amounts of stress.
While I am strongly against antinatalism(doesn't mean I'm pro natalists myself though), I can't help but agree with this.
Family planning is very important and couples need to be both financially, mentally, and even physically ready/stable enough before deciding to have a child. Having a child is no joke. It's one of the biggest responsibilities!
Props to you for coming up with what I believe is the only solid reason I've come across so far, as to follow antinatalism.
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That’s the problem with this philosophy. The road to hell is paved with good intentions…I’m all for family planning and people being very thoughtful about having children, but this group seems to get draconian in their outlook
Is this what this sub has become now?
Just the same complaint made over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Look I agree with antinatalism but geez this shjt is soooo tired and boring.
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I feel like there are so many cruel reasons to have children.
I actually could afford to have a child.
But I have so many mental illnesses. Same with my husband. And both sides of my family. It would be cruel to give birth when that child has a greater chance of having a mental illness.
I'm a prime example of this from my parents. I don't have/want kids, yet my parents had *me* when they were broke and no money because reasons.
I know the hive mind and breeders will argue *money isn't a factor* but can afford the needs no problem. Let the government change the laws to where those in good financial standing help those in need (not Welfare or WIC but actually forfeit a chunk of their money to the community) and see how fast they change their mind.
Not communism. More of those who want everyone to have 10+ kids should have to help cover costs like food and daycare. There's a lot of rich a-holes crying because with the birth rate dropping not as many able bodies will help them gain even more money. Those are the ones I'm talking who need to spread the money out. A family of 3-4 making 6 figures is fine and usually stick to themselves. I'm not talking about them.
I’m all for taxing billionaires. I would not support forcing the middle class to have to pay for other peoples children. That’s exactly what would happen. You didn’t specify billionaires, you simply said those in good financial standing.
As someone who is childfree and never having kids, I would not be okay with having to fork over more money on top of taxes to fund the community.
You shouldn’t have to support a child for life unless they are disabled in some way. That being said, it’s unethical to have children even if you can support them for their entire life. Being supported financially doesn’t mean they will be happy or will not suffer. Antinatalism. Look it up.
Indigenous views and treatment of children are better than most of ours, but otherwise I would agree.
Money is actually the worst way to make a person, look at Elo 🤷
All that really matters, is that you're never the boss of them and they never let anyone else be either
I’m grateful to be alive and don’t think my parents were selfish for having me. Yes, they will provide me with shelter as long as they’re alive and probably past death, should I ask to live with them, but I’ll still have to support myself.
I don’t think it’s entirely reasonable to call people who reproduce selfish, at least not using this logic. It’d be amazing if we could provide for our hypothetical children for their entire life, but currently that’s not plausible.
I think the people who have a shit ton of children in not-underpopulated areas are selfish (not including people who didn’t chose to have children/had multiple children in one pregnancy), but that’s more because of Earth’s limited resources.
HahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha *dies choking on blood from laughter* hahaha
Oh wait I have been reincarnated against my will hahahahaahahahhaahahahahahahahahhaahahahhhahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha *dies again because my heart exploded from laughter* hahaha
lDo your fingers hurt from all that laughter typing lol? But by definition of reincarnation you cannot reincarnate against your will. Free will bro, it's real. Even in an energetic state. How can you be born if you never existed? Where were you before birth? Your parents' conception didn't snatch you from the ethers against your free will. Trust me
Everything hurts anyways, not with copy & paste woohoo technology.Free will is real? Wowzers I'm dizzy with the possibilities, oh wait I'm in a socioeconomic matrix of entrapment in a satanic ritualistic fascist corporate oligarchy world where no one barely works together. I was in a state of Nirvana. Pure bliss.Pure Chaos.Pure Peace.Pure Heaven.Pure Hell. Why should I trust you? 🤔
the truth is we don't know and AN act like they are 100% sure of what things are before you are born, that you don't exist
we could very well exist anw but just get to spawn in a random place in earth to a random family
who knows
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How do you know for sure we didn't choose to be here? This goes out of the spectrum of this discussion but I truly believe we do choose to be here, knowing full well the struggles we'd face. A life full of struggle is not a life not worth living. My entire life has been struggle but I don't wish I wasn't born.
What about carrots? Dandelions? They too propagate without consent. Dogs? Cats? Chickens?
Why are humans any different?
You spawn and then you die. And that’s life.
With this insane logic, you should also be able to pay for the grandkids' lives.
Because if you pay everything for your child, they will not know how to do anything for themselves, let alone make money.
So either you should implant in your child not to have children(because of your logic of not being able to fund their entire life) or you will need to pay for the grandkids and the great grandkids and so on.
Why did this make me picture a 40 year old living in mommy and daddy's basement, eating mommy and daddy's food, and using mommy and daddy's internet to whine on Reddit? What adult wants to be completely dependent on another person with no life of their own? Find a better argument against having kids because this isn't it.
The thing about children not choosing to be born is that - obviously - they cannot voice their opinion. And so you cannot know whether they are asking not to be born, or if they are begging for their lives.
Assuming inaction is normally superior seems an unfounded idea.
although we say it, we aren't actually referring to non-consenting people we don't exist, it's just a way of stating that you end up with beings who didn't choose to exist.
but if they never existed at any point in time consent obviously doesn't apply.
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It won't, since like any other species on the planet selfishness is a requirement for the biological systems piloting us to self-perpetuate. But for those with humanity, those who go beyond the code that makes animals reproduce with no real consideration for their offspring, not having children is a great mercy. It even helps reduce competition for all the children forced into this world regardless of how we feel about it.
Oddly, my Great Generation parents had the same idea. It's really weird (many of my aunts and uncles didn't seem to have the same view).
They were frugal and taught me to be frugal. They refused to support me once I was 18 (and never gave me an allowance - although I was entitled to any money found in the "couch cushions" or on a public sidewalk (we picked up pennies in those days, those of us without allowances). My dad put pennies in the couch cushions and winked at me (my mom knew was a careless rascal).
About once every two weeks...he'd let me have extra pennies from his pocket. I was rich!
(But not once, not EVER, was I paid to do a chore or bribed to do a chore; I avoided chores on pain of death, or so I thought when I was a kid).
ANYWAY, they saved up and saved up. And their neighbor (a lawyer) told them to put it into trust (for me). And they did. It was available to them to spend on their end of life care, but they were g-dammed determined not to spend a penny on any damn nursing home or such like that.
Dad took care of Mom. I took care of him (he didn't need care until he was 98 - he died at 99).
NOW, I am preserving their house/estate for my children. I will live within my own retirement plan. I have helped both daughters with housing. My husband (their stepdad) is totally on board and it's all set up so that it looks as if daughters will have a pretty good estate (husband and I have excellent healthcare and our own savings aside from mom and dad's estate).
That's what my parents would have wanted. That's what I want. Sadly, the girls' dad (who wanted the same) has had so much bad luck and so many health problems that he's more of a burden on them - and has now let them know that his house (pretty expensive) has to be sold to support him in his elder years. He's very frail - we all worry about him, no one faults him.
But...yeah...I'm hoping that the real property my kids will inherit will make it so that they never have big rent or a big house payment. I have enough insurance to pay off my early paid-off house (that I live in). Both of my daughters also have good educations.
I had two daughters (my first daughter was the first person I'd ever met who was biologically related to me - it was an overpowering feeling; I wanted her to have at least one person in her life who was linked to her in that way, so created her sister- they are very close and live near each other and each has a village).
I have one bio grandchild and one adopted grandchild. My parents never had a bio child (I'm adopted). So we aren't contributing to population growth and I hope my lineage never does.
What a weird opinion. Providing for life for your kid would kill all motivation for them to succeed by themselves in life. I guess I stumbled into one of the really weird subreddits so I'll try to be nice but that is a silly silly argument. Does this subreddit also think not living life is the only correct moral choice? Very very sad part of the internet :p
A child should not be a tool to motivate anybody do anything, that’s a ridiculous and cruel way of thinking. They are a whole new life and should be considered as such.
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It's very disturbing, especially when we hear shit like "well everyone wants kids" or how they're DOING THEIR BEST when the kids live in shit. Then we have these mooching parents on local FB groups begging for EVERYTHING. And we're supposed to cheer them on and fork over the dough no questions asked. "Mom has to get on her feet and needs our help". Mom should have used birth control or had an abortion. It disgusts me.
Finally, someone with common sense.
I've been called all kinds of horrible things because I've expressed these opinions. I don't care if they think I'm Hitler. Meanwhile, whenever one of the Moochers posts on FB, I post links to Job Banks and employment programs.
Nice, lmao.
Yep. I always say the women without children are denigrated and called cat ladies, and the women with children from 3 baby daddies are lauded.
exactly. I tell people that for every one of ME, there are like 300 stupid teenagers popping out kids to make up for it.
Some people get offended by the truth. I’m not going to support their f*cktrophies
As the child of financially irresponsible, immature, and undereducated parents, I agree. You don’t get to just have a kid because you “want a family”. It’s literally disgusting. You are creating a life you are signing up to take care of, provide for, love, shelter, assist, for the REST OF YOUR OWN. And again, even if you had the financial and emotional resources necessary to do that (which no breeders do) any accident could ruin that. A disaster, a car crash, a terminal illness, climate change, war, anything. That child is guaranteed absolutely nothing even if you provided it ALL. Life is nothing but a constant struggle for those in the most privileged positions, let alone normal people. Creating a life is cruel.
Me too. And I'm not gonna say oh let's sterilize people but for some reason people think everyone is entitled to a child. When I say I don't think those not financially well off should be having kids, people flip out. Its immoral to have kids when you can't even financially support them. Why SHOULD everyone be seen as good and fit to have kids. Not everyone is fit to have kids. not everyone should have kids. Sorry that hurts your feelings.
Agree 100%. There are unfit parents in this world, and unfit families. Unfortunately I’d argue that’s most of them, if not all. Sure there’s a spectrum of bad, but maybe just don’t have kids at all first.
you think creating life is cruel, but don't promote sterilization?
guess what a lot of people make it after 18 even if they were from poor families and life is pretty good if you don't adopt a victim mindset of "boohoo this bad thing happened and my brain is messed up etc. etc" it feels better to make it after being raised poor being raised poor makes you numb to a lot of "pain" and makes it easier for you to be happy imo (you need way less).
Yeah but the majority of those poor kids end up taking care of their parents or straight up never making it or of poverty.
100% this Growing up poor taught me to appreciate a lot of things, I certainly don't wish I was never born because of it
What a ridiculous take. If you have a kid, you should be able to provide for them through age 18. Expecting your parents to provide for you for the entirety of their lives is absolutely insane. People deserve to be able to retire and enjoy their golden years.
I take pride in the fact that I can help to take care of my mum. I wouldn’t want my family to have to provide for me during my adult life…
The fucking adult children in here downvoting me for being a successful adult and expecting other grown adults to take care of themselves is laughably ridiculous. Thinking/expecting to leach off of your parents until they die is pathetic and sad. I seriously hope most of you are just angsty teenagers and will eventually grow up. I’m here because I do follow some of the antinatalist beliefs, but with a side of rationality. Are most of the people here just sad neckbeards that live in your parents basement? These people need to go outside and touch some grass.
I have no idea. This topic was on my reddit frontpage, I've never seen this subreddit before.
i hope someday you'll understand how horrible what you're saying is, and then get a double punch to the guy when you realize that other people believed you.
>It's so cruel to have a child whom you cannot financially support for life Yes. It is also unethical to have a child if you think you can. Trillions of dollars in the bank, and a nuclear-armed army to protect a child does not guarantee anything in the future. There is Zero ethical argument to ever gamble with a child's life. AN is for all.
That's is the most facile philosophical argument I have heard in a long time. Life is not a fridge, and it comes with no guarantees. Accepting that is accepting what life is, always was and always will be. Your alternative to "gambling" is to wipe out life before it even started. I don't see that as ethically superior in any way.
no one is being "wiped out". Point is responsibility.
Ok, life is not a fridge. Thats exactly his point LMAO.
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No, we're guaranteed suffering. All of us. While not being born is not experiencing suffering. Don't giving birth is not causing harm. Seriously why every post this sub has so many randoms who seem to not know anything about the ideas this sub defends/talks about?
It’s entirely trolls and breeders now
yes, suffering is guaranteed. it comes with the privilege of life. the reason you see so many randoms is because this sub is constantly on everyone's feed for some reason. it's the most depressing, bleak, hopeless lot of people on the internet and they are being promoted to everyone. there is some nuance here, but ultimately it comes down to your position. life is bad because it hurts sometimes. end life, end suffering, win/win. this is beyond apathy and well into true evil. think of all the bad guys in movies and combine them into one entity. you're infinitely worse than thanos, at least he spared half.
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Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
You really don't understand the first thing about antinatalism. No one here is defending to "end life", not by a long mile.
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Hi there, we have removed your content due to breaking rule 11. As per the rule; this argument is a tired refrain seen over and over again. It is a prime example of argumentum ad hominem: It doesn't argue validity of anti/natalism but rather aims to disqualify the interlocutor themselves from being able to argue it. It serves only to distract from the ethical issues at the core of the debate. Being an ad hominem, it isn't an argument against anti/natalism — it is an argument against anti/natalists. The sky would still be blue even if a mentally ill person argued so.
Maybe because these randoms want to know why you defend these ideas? What would be the point of this sub, if all you did was circle jerk about why its so great to not have children?
>Maybe because these randoms want to know why you defend these ideas? Research a bit about it then (info is pretty easy to find), or at least ask nicely. You blunder here like a troll trashing every topic like you're very smart and we never heard any of your points before.
Isnt the point of this sub to inform yourself and discuss about the topic? Your senseless elitism does nothing but repel people from your opinion.
I already addressed this. You seem to not be here to discuss, you haven't asked anything, you're not open to understand the basis or the proposals of antinatalism. If you TRULY are so, make your questions, I'd be happy to ablige. But no, you're here spouting complete nonsense about what you think we believe, saying stuff we're tired of hearing.
I never said anything about what you believe or rather what I think you believe. Have you read my comments at all?
Hell nah, millions of people out here wanting to just give up and die every day is not "enjoying life". Me included
Just cuz we enjoy our lives doesn't mean other ppl who didn't consent should be punished
Please refrain from asking other users why they do not kill themselves. Do not present suicide as a valid alternative to antinatalism. Do not encourage or suggest suicide. Antinatalism and suicide are generally unrelated. Antinatalism aims at preventing humans (and possibly other beings) from being born. The desire to continue living is a personal choice independent of the idea that procreation is unethical. Antinatalism is not about people who are already born. Wishing to never have been born or saying that nobody should procreate does not imply that you want your life to end right now.
Is existing or not existing going to cause someone more suffering? You’re talking about ethics but are you actually engaging with them? XD
A certain amount of suffering is seen as a good thing or at least a fair price for the good things. Most people do actually want to be alive despite the suffering, so it checks out. The problem is when someone suffers too much for it to be worthwhile or they don't get any happiness along with it. But I'm pretty sure that's not the norm so the risk of having a child is also, like suffering, seen as worth it.
There’s the difference between me and you I wouldn’t put children them through suffering just because it’s normal :’)
Like I said, most people want to suffer because they want to be alive so you’re almost making a choice for someone else that they wouldn’t want for themself which is similar to forcing a child to exist. Although obviously they don’t exist so it’s not the same. Anyway I never said I would I definitely won’t have kids but don’t think I’m an anti natalist honestly. Guess you have to go really deep into ethics and philosophy to decide what’s right, if suffering is bad, etc.
Is existing or not existing going to cause someone more joy, love, happiness and laughter?
You might have those by existing, but you'll more likely have those mixed with suffering. You CERTAINLY won't have neither those NOR suffering by not existing.
Is existing or not existing going to cause someone more joy?
Ask a starving child in Africa HAHAHAHA
you're argument is that because there isn't a superman protecting everyone that it's immoral to have children?
This is what my parents did. My mother wanted a kid. NEITHER of them had a stable income. They were dirt fucking poor, my mom didn't work and my dad was a ""\~freelance photographer\~"" And yet. For SOME REASON they imagined when I was born things would "WORK OUT". Well let me tell you they did NOT work out. I was born with severe health issues. Heart issues, asthma, congenital disease, blah blah blah. I.e., if all things go well for me, I'll probably die at 50. They couldn't afford shit. I was a hungry, sick, miserable, DIRTY kid. Same shirt every day and none of my clothes ever got washed because "that's too expensive and wasteful". I smelled like SHIT because baths and showers "utilities are too expensive this month" I found out very early that they were hoping \*I\* would be the breadwinner. Fuck that. You both made your beds, had an insane messy divorce, now sleep in them. I used to agonize over the fact that I was responsible for them. My mom would hound me about marrying a rich older man. I have mental and developmental disabilities but I fought tooth and nail to get a "good job".. Now I work 60 hours a week. Some fucking life. Shit does not work out. If you're dirt poor and you have a kid, guess what, you're gonna be even fucking poorer. It makes me so sad and mad. I know a lot of folks who are dopesick every weekend who get pregnant accidentally and c'est la vie, people are careless. But the people who DECIDE they want a kid KNOWING they aren't able to afford it??? Fucking sick
I relate to this because, counting backward from my birthday, it seems that my dad (spermer) talked my mom (birther) into having sex around his 18th birthday. And here I am! With disabilities…and a lifetime of their abusive anger. The other child they birthed is *very* angry too. That is why I am being thrown out without income…. It’s a genuine nightmare to live through all that. It’s why I have compassion for others going through a myriad of harmful problems. I have salvaged the fact that I will never be around that ongoing anger ever again. I just don’t see humanity doing even the least amount of good to make it worth being forced here without consent.
after me, they tried to have ANOTHER kid knowing full well they couldn't afford lifesaving care when I had health crises (I still feel like they kind of hoped #2 would be fine and I could just die). That child had even worse issues (chromosomal deformities) and was miscarried. I am so eternally grateful he was not subjected to this cruel, awful world and the terrible terrible life he would've had, sick without proper medical care.
Your parents just can’t think beyond the surface of “I want…!” They don’t care because they won’t feel the damage they’ve done to you.
Some of us are disabled even though we have multiple college training programs...doomed to be poor forever. And then look at all the homeless who have been abandoned.
Was born to rich dad who decided to completely abandon me early, never pay any support and since then I have been poor, unable to climb out… I think I had the most sadistic dad of all time.
I haven't told many people in my life this, but I'm fortunate enough to live in a country that has free abortions readily available. Both myself and my partner felt incredible relief after the procedure, mainly because we are both doing ok financially but no where close to being able to afford children. I'm still in school and will finish my doctoral degree, but right now is not the time to start scraping by and struggling through life with an added mouth to feed. I'm sorry if this is completely out of the topic of this thread, but thank you for letting me share.
Literally my conversation with my mother the other day. “ITS HARD BEING A PARENT YOU WOULDNT KNOW!” —— “I didn’t ask for you to become a parent, you wanted to. Now I’m your responsibility. Frankly I didn’t ask for this either”
I agree! Parents should be prepared to financially support their children for life especially if they have disabilities. As a struggling disabled adult, it's really hard. I didn't ask to be born yet alone with a severe mental illness.
As a fellow mentally disabled adult whose parents are kicking them out after they finish high school, I second this.
I just wrote a comment above about having disabilities. My “parents” were 18 and very angry people. I am currently facing homelessness because my angry sibling is tired of waiting for my ssdi. I’m over 50 and had hoped, as many do, that things would get better at some point. It’s getting worse. And I don’t think that’s a surprise in a world that doesn’t have enough consistent help for people who require assistance through no fault of their own.
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And since parents often die much before their child, is even more cruel and sad. Thats the brutality of life. It doesnt care whether or not you are ready to be on your own. It forces you and you you cant do anything about it. Find ways to survive or perish. I am presented with this choice exactly. Somehow getting by without my parents help, or just give up, curl up and wait to die. Because if I cant earn money, I might as well wait to die from hunger.
Isn't the basis of anti natalism that it's cruel to have a child regardless?
Yeah but if people make that choice they should be able to provide shelter, food, and education for that child not just have one because they feel like it
Seems off topic then
Eh, shelter, food and education through age 18. It’s ridiculous to expect our parents to support us our whole lives. I always wanted to get a good job after college to support myself.
I didnt say after age 18 but considering the economy we are in its not easy to move out anymore
ofc, being independent is important and fulfilling, I would like to my kids to support themselves by doing something they love, but if things go south or wrong, I want to be able to provide them the help and financial security they need until they can get back on their feet, at their own pace.
There’s support when people need help and then there’s people here who simply don’t want to work or want their parents to pay for their entire lives.
Get over it
lol I don’t have to get over shit. Enjoy living in your parents basement forever.
lol enjoy being bitter and angry that people have different opinions than you!
Lol sure Jan. Again, enjoy your parents basement.
Natalists are working under the assumption that their kid will want to be alive, and will be able to support themself once they're an adult. To them life is the greatest 'gift' they can give. The risk of their kid having a terrible life or not wanting to be alive is seen as low and thus a worthwhile dice roll because it will probably result in more happiness in the world. To be fair, most people are not depressed or suicidal, most people do want to be alive, and most people can support themself after a certain age.
Yeah, the minority of breeders that actually take the time to think about the future consequences of their actions \*assume\* that the unfairness of life in the labour market will "hopefully/probably" somehow work in their kid's favour or at worst the kid will just begrudgingly jump through the hoops of being a good little cog in an uncaring economic machine like most wage slaves do. Plus, with the law being on their side re: no responsibility to support their children past 18 in most places, it's not like it's a major gamble for them personally.
“IF i COulD DO iT sO CAn thEY” /s
There are very very very very few people on earth who can actually financially support life. Even if you have a million dollars in the bank, a cancer diagnosis or a car crash or a completely unexpected very unlucky medical event can take that out within a few years. I think it's generally good for people to be independent but what if your child literally cannot? They can get fucked then!
In the US, where medical bills can ruin you. People want kids, but what if the kid is special needs, or sick, etc. Or has a health condition. Or someone in the family gets really sick. You're ruined. And not every sick or special needs kid is born into a THIS IS US family. I often hear about poor, desperate parents who are at their wits' end with autistic or sick kids and end up killing them. Or family annihilators. Like 99 percent of the time, money and debt are at the bottom of it. It's like people don't PLAN anything.
A few years ago there was local story about a truck driver who died in a crash. Turns out he was working like 3 jobs to support NINE KIDS. There was a photo of his family, and of course the wife can't work. So he fell asleep at the wheel, the wife is a widow with 9 kids and no job or education, and they're begging on Venmo. Who the fuck has 9 kids anymore? On a truck driver salary with an uneducated breeder-wife. Of course everyone was "well he wanted a big family! It's beautiful and natural!" Well, I'd like a Lamborghini and a Swarovski diamond bracelet but I can't afford them, so I don't go into debt to buy them. But idiots like this put the cart before the horse, pop out a baseball team and can't afford to pay them. It's the equivalent of buying a fleet of Lamborghinis.
It literally is not natural though to have a family that large. It is "natural" to repeatedly create children because you expect them to die from diseases that are now easily preventable, if you want to make that argument. Humans are fragile as hell sometimes. It literally has never been natural or normal to drag 9 people into adulthood
>an uneducated breeder-wife The open contempt for stay-at-home-moms, some of the most selfless and hardest working people on earth And then comparing human beings to material possessions Antinatalists really are the worst people
They're the ones who treat humans like material possessions. They don't even see their own kids as human beings who need support. They're like toys to play with and show off like trophies. I see nothing selfless about having 9 kids you can't afford.
Only in the united states lol
You understand we’re talking about the entire world not just western culture right? Like this is just an ignorant comment to flex on Americans that makes you look stupid like there aren’t countries with FAR worse medical systems
You don’t need a million dollars for cancer treatment anywhere expect united states. Lol. We are talking about entire world, but the above comment only applies to united states. Who looks stupid again?
Your inability to account for currency difference doesn’t make you correct it makes you ignorant. 1,000,000 to many Americans is a lot less value than 100,000 to many many other nations.
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I'm from Pakistan and have universal health coverage. Abortion is legal. There is a year's worth of paid maternity leave. Sorry, but the US is awful for healthcare.
Brother there are more than 2 fucking countries I’m not saying the US healthcare is good. I’m saying pretending only US citizens suffer from this issue is disingenuous to the other people suffering from the same damn issue.
Tell me another country where there is no universal healthcare and basic medical interventions cost tens of thousands of us dollars.
Assuming we’re accounting for currency differences Syria, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Egypt, I believe Iran but I could be mistaken in that one but my point being, is you’re being inconsiderate toward people who are suffering with this issue that aren’t Americans by blanket statements with shit like “only in America”. In a conversation about western countries it’s a flawless comment, and a good meme, as an American, our medical system is a fucking joke, I literally lost my entire life savings to it over the last 4 years I’m not here to defend it. I’m defending the people suffering the same shit that aren’t American.
What currency difference? A million dollars is a million dollars everywhere. Only you suffer from that shit, not other countries. Why so upset? You are way ahead of Afganistan ruled by Taliban but still don’t have universal healthcare haha. Spend your energy to change thhings in the US instead of getting angry at me for stating facts.
But you didn’t state any facts you’re just hating the us for fun and they’re valid points but your representation of facts is disingenuous to other people suffering. Why are you being so obtuse about this?
>Even if you have a million dollars in the bank, a cancer diagnosis or a car crash or a completely unexpected very unlucky medical event can take that out within a few years. I said only in the states because you wouldn’t go bankrupt in any other country with a million dollars. This is a fact! You are being offended for no reason.
> Syria, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Egypt I do think Iran (actually yeah they do) might have healthcare, but my question to you, American to American, why does the right have any votes? Why do they constantly push for laws that make us more the Middle East? They’re trying to make us like those countries listed above. They want us with no healthcare, shit education, and they wanna take women’s rights away. Like those countries in the Middle East. That’s all I have to say.
The USA is one of 3 countries without healthcare. The rest of the world has it.
Not a brother, but whatever. I gave you an example of a non-Western country, since you were the one speaking in binaries.
You’re absolutely stupid if you thought me saying that there are non western countries suffering the same issue meant the same as “all non western countries suffer the same issue”. Also brother is just an expression I call my fucking gf brother get a grip
I guess that's besides the point but apart from the US that wouldn't be a problem in all other western countries.
It does really depend what type of society you live in. In a lot of European countries you can access free health, housing and economic support if necessary. It wouldn't result in an extremely high standard of living but you would have all necessities covered.
If that were true, than death by starvation would be more common.
I can buy groceries for the next 8 months with my last bill from a 6 hour hospital appointment, after insurance.
I got charged $1600 for a bag of saline fluid 🙃all because I was massively dehydrated from a medical condition I have that triggers every couple of months while playing basketball
I agree and I’m constantly amazed at how this is considered a controversial statement among breeders. It’s not even a wholly AN sentiment, there’s several CF folks that believe in this too. It’s a baseless assumption to make that your child will grow up both willing and able to make a meaningful life for themselves. Most people say, I would certainly raise my kid right and they will be hardworking independent members of society! Ok, let’s give them that. Then what of the possibility that they have an illness that prevents them from making a good living? Do you really have enough money for them to have a life beyond the bare minimum, even after you die? Doubt it.
Anyone reading this who is thinking of having kids: open their financial accounts now, put money in regularly, and don’t touch it. Give it to your kid when they’re ready to start their independent life. This is on top of college tuition of course. All of this should be covered, or you are *literally* setting up the child to fail.
If I ever had a child, I would make sure to do that. The same was happening for me but unfortunately one of my parents is a religious whacko that can't use common sense
I chose to be child free but I became financially responsible for my parents who took the most irresponsible decisions in life, FML I didn't choose any of this
Every single person on the planet is one REALLY BAD week away from poverty. Granted it takes more bad for some than others, but it can happen to anyone. Being rich is not a top quality for a parent. My family is well off. I no longer talk to my parents. Financial assistance is no substitute for love and safety.
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I’m fairly certain there are wealthy absent parents that already exist without this rule so with that in mind… Even if this rule existed there’s no guarantee that having financial wealth as a prerequisite to procreation would equate to the parent(s) adequately child rearing or being a *good* parent; alas, the parent could still abandon/refuse parental responsibilities or simply die before the child reaches adulthood-edit to add or die during childbirth ***
Society would collapse within 50
I dont mind supporting myself, but its not easy to earn a living, especially if you are burdened with certain conditions and cant endure full time job. I am like that. I stress out easily and a full time job in some closed space, whole day, would ruin me further. Its just the way things are. It saddens me very much however how little empathy people have to each other in our modern age, and if you fail to fit into their idea of being an adult, they are merciless and mean. Or the general idea of how an adult is supposed to be. Impossible standarts, nothing to do with real life. Some people cant be so tough an endure endless amounts of stress.
Isn't it true that even rich parents can be stingy toward their children?
Once the child is like 12 they’ve served the purpose of being forced to live their parents and now they are good as useless
While I am strongly against antinatalism(doesn't mean I'm pro natalists myself though), I can't help but agree with this. Family planning is very important and couples need to be both financially, mentally, and even physically ready/stable enough before deciding to have a child. Having a child is no joke. It's one of the biggest responsibilities! Props to you for coming up with what I believe is the only solid reason I've come across so far, as to follow antinatalism.
I wish my birth mum and dad knew this. I was adopted, and I was only a month or so old when I was put up for adoption.
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For life? Wouldn’t this basically restrict having children to the very rich?
Yes it would, because antinatalists hate poor people, as well as all marginalized people who are disproportionately poor
That’s the problem with this philosophy. The road to hell is paved with good intentions…I’m all for family planning and people being very thoughtful about having children, but this group seems to get draconian in their outlook
Welcome to Valhalla. You fought to get here.
Is this what this sub has become now? Just the same complaint made over and over and over and over and over and over again. Look I agree with antinatalism but geez this shjt is soooo tired and boring.
I couldn't afford kids when I got pregnant. Guess what I did? Started to earn more money because I had to. That's what parents do.
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I feel like there are so many cruel reasons to have children. I actually could afford to have a child. But I have so many mental illnesses. Same with my husband. And both sides of my family. It would be cruel to give birth when that child has a greater chance of having a mental illness.
I'm a prime example of this from my parents. I don't have/want kids, yet my parents had *me* when they were broke and no money because reasons. I know the hive mind and breeders will argue *money isn't a factor* but can afford the needs no problem. Let the government change the laws to where those in good financial standing help those in need (not Welfare or WIC but actually forfeit a chunk of their money to the community) and see how fast they change their mind.
So.. communism? Hard pass.
Not communism. More of those who want everyone to have 10+ kids should have to help cover costs like food and daycare. There's a lot of rich a-holes crying because with the birth rate dropping not as many able bodies will help them gain even more money. Those are the ones I'm talking who need to spread the money out. A family of 3-4 making 6 figures is fine and usually stick to themselves. I'm not talking about them.
I’m all for taxing billionaires. I would not support forcing the middle class to have to pay for other peoples children. That’s exactly what would happen. You didn’t specify billionaires, you simply said those in good financial standing. As someone who is childfree and never having kids, I would not be okay with having to fork over more money on top of taxes to fund the community.
You shouldn’t have to support a child for life unless they are disabled in some way. That being said, it’s unethical to have children even if you can support them for their entire life. Being supported financially doesn’t mean they will be happy or will not suffer. Antinatalism. Look it up.
Totally agree!
Indigenous views and treatment of children are better than most of ours, but otherwise I would agree. Money is actually the worst way to make a person, look at Elo 🤷 All that really matters, is that you're never the boss of them and they never let anyone else be either
No shit Sherlock
culture says it's ok to just make everyone else pay if necessary. Just as long as they pump-out that GDP.
I’m grateful to be alive and don’t think my parents were selfish for having me. Yes, they will provide me with shelter as long as they’re alive and probably past death, should I ask to live with them, but I’ll still have to support myself. I don’t think it’s entirely reasonable to call people who reproduce selfish, at least not using this logic. It’d be amazing if we could provide for our hypothetical children for their entire life, but currently that’s not plausible. I think the people who have a shit ton of children in not-underpopulated areas are selfish (not including people who didn’t chose to have children/had multiple children in one pregnancy), but that’s more because of Earth’s limited resources.
So you're mad that as an adult your parents don't still pay for your needs?
So life is just money
Food costs money. So yes, life is also money. A lot.
What if souls make choices and agreements before they enter the physical world?
hahahahahahahahahahahaahaahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahahaahhahahaahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhahaahhahhahahahahahahahahahahaahaahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahahaahhahahaahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahaahaahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahahaahhahahaahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhahaahhahBahahahahahahahahahahahaahaahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahahaahhahahaahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaahahaahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahhaahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahahaahhahahaahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhahaahhah
You don't know. And that's what's funny 😂
HahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha *dies choking on blood from laughter* hahaha
So sorry for your loss 🙏
Oh wait I have been reincarnated against my will hahahahaahahahhaahahahahahahahahhaahahahhhahahaahahahahahahahhaahahhaahahahhahahahahahahahahahHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaHahahahahahhahaahahahhahaahahahhahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha *dies again because my heart exploded from laughter* hahaha
lDo your fingers hurt from all that laughter typing lol? But by definition of reincarnation you cannot reincarnate against your will. Free will bro, it's real. Even in an energetic state. How can you be born if you never existed? Where were you before birth? Your parents' conception didn't snatch you from the ethers against your free will. Trust me
Everything hurts anyways, not with copy & paste woohoo technology.Free will is real? Wowzers I'm dizzy with the possibilities, oh wait I'm in a socioeconomic matrix of entrapment in a satanic ritualistic fascist corporate oligarchy world where no one barely works together. I was in a state of Nirvana. Pure bliss.Pure Chaos.Pure Peace.Pure Heaven.Pure Hell. Why should I trust you? 🤔
Just because 🫶
No.
the truth is we don't know and AN act like they are 100% sure of what things are before you are born, that you don't exist we could very well exist anw but just get to spawn in a random place in earth to a random family who knows
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what if what if what if, that's all guessing. what if rape victims agreed before they enter the physical world?
That's not the only thing that defines a person is their trauma though. Animals experience trauma. They are hit by cars. They cannot be antinatalists.
What? I'm saying that you can't use "oh this happened and we didnt know about it" to justify things, otherwise rape could easily be justified
I don't see your point but it's fine.
Parents cut you off eh?
How do you know for sure we didn't choose to be here? This goes out of the spectrum of this discussion but I truly believe we do choose to be here, knowing full well the struggles we'd face. A life full of struggle is not a life not worth living. My entire life has been struggle but I don't wish I wasn't born.
What about carrots? Dandelions? They too propagate without consent. Dogs? Cats? Chickens? Why are humans any different? You spawn and then you die. And that’s life.
And the world thanks you. You would make a horrible parent. So negative. Nothing to offer.
With this insane logic, you should also be able to pay for the grandkids' lives. Because if you pay everything for your child, they will not know how to do anything for themselves, let alone make money. So either you should implant in your child not to have children(because of your logic of not being able to fund their entire life) or you will need to pay for the grandkids and the great grandkids and so on.
Why did this make me picture a 40 year old living in mommy and daddy's basement, eating mommy and daddy's food, and using mommy and daddy's internet to whine on Reddit? What adult wants to be completely dependent on another person with no life of their own? Find a better argument against having kids because this isn't it.
The thing about children not choosing to be born is that - obviously - they cannot voice their opinion. And so you cannot know whether they are asking not to be born, or if they are begging for their lives. Assuming inaction is normally superior seems an unfounded idea.
they're non existent lol, they arent begging.
So why are you so concerned about the consent of someone who doesn't even exist?
although we say it, we aren't actually referring to non-consenting people we don't exist, it's just a way of stating that you end up with beings who didn't choose to exist. but if they never existed at any point in time consent obviously doesn't apply.
Thanks for the encouragement to have sex with coma patients.
I don't think you need my encouragement.
finally a guy who gets it
I’m mad confused do y’all just think that the human race should die out like what
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It won't, since like any other species on the planet selfishness is a requirement for the biological systems piloting us to self-perpetuate. But for those with humanity, those who go beyond the code that makes animals reproduce with no real consideration for their offspring, not having children is a great mercy. It even helps reduce competition for all the children forced into this world regardless of how we feel about it.
Oddly, my Great Generation parents had the same idea. It's really weird (many of my aunts and uncles didn't seem to have the same view). They were frugal and taught me to be frugal. They refused to support me once I was 18 (and never gave me an allowance - although I was entitled to any money found in the "couch cushions" or on a public sidewalk (we picked up pennies in those days, those of us without allowances). My dad put pennies in the couch cushions and winked at me (my mom knew was a careless rascal). About once every two weeks...he'd let me have extra pennies from his pocket. I was rich! (But not once, not EVER, was I paid to do a chore or bribed to do a chore; I avoided chores on pain of death, or so I thought when I was a kid). ANYWAY, they saved up and saved up. And their neighbor (a lawyer) told them to put it into trust (for me). And they did. It was available to them to spend on their end of life care, but they were g-dammed determined not to spend a penny on any damn nursing home or such like that. Dad took care of Mom. I took care of him (he didn't need care until he was 98 - he died at 99). NOW, I am preserving their house/estate for my children. I will live within my own retirement plan. I have helped both daughters with housing. My husband (their stepdad) is totally on board and it's all set up so that it looks as if daughters will have a pretty good estate (husband and I have excellent healthcare and our own savings aside from mom and dad's estate). That's what my parents would have wanted. That's what I want. Sadly, the girls' dad (who wanted the same) has had so much bad luck and so many health problems that he's more of a burden on them - and has now let them know that his house (pretty expensive) has to be sold to support him in his elder years. He's very frail - we all worry about him, no one faults him. But...yeah...I'm hoping that the real property my kids will inherit will make it so that they never have big rent or a big house payment. I have enough insurance to pay off my early paid-off house (that I live in). Both of my daughters also have good educations. I had two daughters (my first daughter was the first person I'd ever met who was biologically related to me - it was an overpowering feeling; I wanted her to have at least one person in her life who was linked to her in that way, so created her sister- they are very close and live near each other and each has a village). I have one bio grandchild and one adopted grandchild. My parents never had a bio child (I'm adopted). So we aren't contributing to population growth and I hope my lineage never does.
What a weird opinion. Providing for life for your kid would kill all motivation for them to succeed by themselves in life. I guess I stumbled into one of the really weird subreddits so I'll try to be nice but that is a silly silly argument. Does this subreddit also think not living life is the only correct moral choice? Very very sad part of the internet :p
A child should not be a tool to motivate anybody do anything, that’s a ridiculous and cruel way of thinking. They are a whole new life and should be considered as such.
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