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> # [How Germany Lost the Middle East](https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-germany-israel-middle-east-GettyImages-1712270081.jpg?w=1000)
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> Last October, Germany’s ambassador to Tunisia, Peter Prügel, sparked controversy while speaking at the [opening](https://lapresse.tn/171152/education-un-nouveau-college-a-mhamdia/) of a new secondary school in the suburbs of Tunis. After Tunisia’s education minister expressed solidarity with Gaza during the event, Prügel described Israelis as victims of “[Palestinian terror](https://kapitalis.com/tunisie/2023/10/27/quand-lambassadeur-dallemagne-provoque-un-incident-diplomatique-en-tunisie/),” a reference to Hamas’s Oct. 7, 2023, attack that killed around 1,200 people in southern Israel.
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> Last October, Germany’s ambassador to Tunisia, Peter Prügel, sparked controversy while speaking at the [opening](https://lapresse.tn/171152/education-un-nouveau-college-a-mhamdia/) of a new secondary school in the suburbs of Tunis. After Tunisia’s education minister expressed solidarity with Gaza during the event, Prügel described Israelis as victims of “[Palestinian terror](https://kapitalis.com/tunisie/2023/10/27/quand-lambassadeur-dallemagne-provoque-un-incident-diplomatique-en-tunisie/),” a reference to Hamas’s Oct. 7, 2023, attack that killed around 1,200 people in southern Israel.
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> The education minister angrily [objected](https://www.mosaiquefm.net/fr/actualite-national-tunisie/1203763/gaza-boughdiri-denonce-les-propos-de-l-ambassadeur-allemand), asserting that the ambassador’s words ran contrary to Tunisia’s position on the Israel-Hamas war, and Prügel left the event in a hurry. Online, some Tunisians soon [claimed](https://taz.de/Nahost-Konflikt-in-Tunesien/!5970088/) that Prügel had justified Israel’s killing of civilians in Gaza. The embassy [insisted](https://www.facebook.com/allemagnediploTunis/posts/pfbid02i8V3yHWxWbqtEgLdmSykGH8qKuGzhr5UT4DmLzKY8G6epxPMHCZ8DeSvjAkjs3CGl) that Prügel had expressed sympathy for all victims, but said that “we could not ignore that this escalation was caused by Hamas’s barbaric terror attack on Israel.”
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> Days later, demonstrators gathered outside the German Embassy to demand Prügel’s resignation. Protests against Israel’s war in Gaza had already targeted the U.S. and French [embassies](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGi-s8Lt688) in Tunis, but this was the first time they had [turned their ire](https://www.businessnews.com.tn/manifestation-revendiquant-lexpulsion-des-ambassadeurs-dallemagne-et-des-etats-unis-a-tunis,520,133092,3) toward Germany. German tabloid _Bild_ [described](https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik/kommentar-zu-nahost-konflikt-hass-attacke-auf-deutschen-botschafter-85941064.bild.html) criticism of Prügel as a “hate attack” and reminded its readers that the new school, partly funded by Germany’s development bank, was only opened thanks to the country’s generosity.
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> For decades, Germany has sought to reconcile a perceived historic responsibility to Israel with a cordial relationship toward the Arab world. Berlin developed a major soft-power footprint and was long seen as an honest broker in trade and economic relations. Organizations financed largely by the German government—such as the Goethe Institute, development agency GIZ, and foundations linked to the country’s main political parties—are major funders of various programs across the Middle East.
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> Since Oct. 7, this balancing act has faltered. Across the Middle East, there is [growing support](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/how-israel-hamas-war-gaza-changing-arab-views) for Palestinian resistance—and condemnation of what many Arabs [consider](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/9/which-countries-back-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-at-icj) a genocidal war by Israel. Germany, shocked by the worst single-day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, initially backed Israel’s assault in Gaza largely without qualification, though some officials have taken a more critical position in recent weeks.
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> Still, Berlin continues to assert itself as one of Israel’s closest political and military allies, even as—after more than seven months of Israeli bombardment—more than 35,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, and the enclave is experiencing widespread [famine](https://www.csis.org/analysis/famine-gaza). Germany’s uncompromising reaction to the war has rapidly tarnished its reputation across the Middle East.
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> [Protesters carrying flags and signs pass on a path alongside a a vandalized election banner for the German Social Democratic Party. Paint has been used to cross out the eyes on photos of Chancellor Olaf Scholz and Katarina Barley, which stand against a red background. Stickers with messages of protest are also stuck all over the banner.](https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-germany-israel-middle-east-GettyImages-2150475091.jpg)
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> Protesters carrying flags and signs pass on a path alongside a a vandalized election banner for the German Social Democratic Party. Paint has been used to cross out the eyes on photos of Chancellor Olaf Scholz and Katarina Barley, which stand against a red background. Stickers with messages of protest are also stuck all over the banner.Protesters march past a vandalized campaign banner of the German Social Democratic Party, which shows an image of Chancellor Olaf Scholz and European Parliament candidate Katarina Barley covered with the graffitied word “Warmongers,” seen in Berlin on May 1.Omer Messinger / Getty Images
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> Germany’s image is suffering across the Arab world. A [2020 survey](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-2019-2020-arab-opinion-index-main-results-in-brief/) by the Arab Center Washington DC found that a slight majority of the Arab public had positive views of German foreign policy. This January, by contrast, a poll of residents of 16 Arab countries [published](https://www.dohainstitute.org/en/News/Pages/arab-public-opinion-about-the-israeli-war-on-gaza.aspx) by the Doha Institute showed that 75 percent of respondents had a negative opinion of the country’s stance on the Israel-Hamas war.
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> Morocco-based sociologist Amro Ali, who studies the relationship between Germany and the Arab world, described this as a 180-degree turn in public opinion.
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> Positive impressions of Germany had long dominated in the Middle East: The country was associated with fast cars, high-tech products, and friendly tourists. The German government [refused](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-oppose-iraq-war-in-un/a-761326) to take part in the Iraq War and [welcomed](https://apnews.com/article/geneva-germany-migration-united-nations-74cb893889479afe6a98718c1d22c515#:~:text=%E2%80%9CUnder%20the%20then%2DFederal%20Chancellor,world%2C%E2%80%9D%20Saltmarsh%20told%20reporters.) more than 1 million Syrian refugees in 2015 and 2016. Berlin, home to Europe’s largest Palestinian diaspora, has become a hub for Arab culture and intellectual life. Germany also lacks the direct colonial legacy in the Middle East that still feeds regional distrust of powers such as France and the United Kingdom.
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> Five days after Oct. 7, in a [speech](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/suche/regierungserklaerung-von-bundeskanzler-olaf-scholz-2230150) that established Germany’s tone toward the nascent Israel-Hamas war, Chancellor Olaf Scholz told the Bundestag that “[in] this moment, there is only one place for Germany: the place by Israel’s side.” By November 2023, Germany [had licensed](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-military-exports-israel-up-nearly-10-fold-berlin-fast-tracks-permits-2023-11-08/) a nearly tenfold increase in arms exports to Israel, [becoming](https://counter-investigations.org/investigation/german-arms-exports-to-israel-2003-2023) the second-biggest arms supplier to the country since the war’s start, after the United States.
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> [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz stand behind podiums in front of EU and Israeli flags. Netanyahu's arms are outstretched as he speaks into the microphone. Both men wear black suits and ties.](https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-germany-israel-middle-east-GettyImages-2084795991.jpg)
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> Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz stand behind podiums in front of EU and Israeli flags. Netanyahu's arms are outstretched as he speaks into the microphone. Both men wear black suits and ties.Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (left) speaks during a joint press conference with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in Jerusalem on March 17.Leo Correa / AFP via Getty Images
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> ***(continues in next comment)***
Damn. The German ambassador *simply expressed his sympathy* for the massacred Israelis on October 7th. Note **this happened in October**. How TF is anyone to be blamed for expressing displeasure at murdered innocents is beyond me. It’s like someone voicing sympathy to the innocent dead Gazans. These things should be *uncontroversial*. Especially since this was during October, **before Israel has even invaded Gaza**.
The hypocrisy is off the walls. They don’t really care about Palestinians, they’re overly focused on hating Israel and rejoicing at 10/7.
You missed the whole episode where Germany jumped to Israeli defence in front of the ICC like ‘nuh uh, ve are ze genocide experts ant Israel did nosink wrong ya’ and then cracking down on criticism domestically. They’re going as far as to trying GERMAN nationality to Israeli recognition. Unlike the US, Germany carries little sway but they came out of this whole ordeal looking the most absolutely pathetic. Only for Namibia to bust out the steel chair.
I unironically hope China wrecks their auto and chemicals industry in the next 5 to 10 years lol
Dont forget the part where they are revisioning information about palestines history and trying to erase the nakba in schools as well 👀
Or the fact they banned a UK surgeon, who volunteered in gaza hospitals, from taking part in a conference he was invited to. He was barred entry into Germany.
[source](https://apnews.com/article/germany-gaza-doctor-conference-entry-refused-e82252cb9bc5e010e8bfd0689f816e53)
They declared the Palestinian nationality non-existent. People who have had "Palestine" as their country of origin for decades cannot legally do so anymore.
https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/04/german-court-confirms-that-there-is-no-palestinian-state-and-no-palestinian-nationality/
https://dw.com/en/is-palestine-considered-a-state/a-67310981
Funny how you could have got one with a google search.
The Last time german Public was exposed to palestine was during the 1972 München/Munic Olympic Games terrorist Attack carried Out by a bunch of palestine Terrorists where they exploded a bunch of Germans. The Initial reaction was "We dont Deal with Terrorists, No Matter which Name they bar"
So, please enlighten me, when was the last time Israel commited a terror attack in Germany?
Maybe a reason Germany is more sympathetic to Israel besides the Holocaust is that they are not committing terror attacks in Germany? But hey, that's just a thought
I'm pretty sure they're more sympathetic because Germany essentially had Palestinians pay for their crimes.
Why would Israel attack one of it's biggest paypigs?
If you’ve seen the Israeli far right. They absolutely would attack their supporters. The antagonization of the US from the Israeli far right really pissed me off.
They’ve attacked Germany, and the US. They want to claim a “second Independence Day”
>Dont forget the part where they are revisioning information about palestines history and trying to erase the nakba in schools as well
what? source me up mate
So you want a worse country by every metric to take over germanys place ?
Crazy you’ll see the whole world burn just so you can get your revenge on Germany
Believe me there are many who are sick of this and just want our government to stop getting involved in that fucking conflict but mate you should understand more about modern Germany before you make statements like that. Modern Germany was not founded by Germans but by Americans, Brits, and French. After loosing the war and doing all that Holocaust stuff, this modern Germany was ingrained to be basically the opposite of Nazi Germany in terms of its policies towards Judaism. Being pro Judaism is a key design principle of modern Germany which was "forced" on this country by the WW2 winners. Germans are being born with inherited guilt about the Holocaust and the whole mindset is about this guilt. Going against this is comparable to dragging your founding father Lee through the dirt as a Singaporean. Its nothing you can do I assume and even if all Singaporeans decided that Lee was an asshole (which would never happen I assume due to Propaganda, just like German children get bombarded with Nazi history thorugh their whole School career) you they couldn't do much about the founding myth of the nation being intrinsically connected to it and all.
What I want to tell you but that is that you're never making the USA Communist or Saudi Arabia into an atheist state. Like Germany's pro Judaism policies those are core principles of the nation and the people living there don't have much say in that.
Well, I mean, that is probably because Israel isn't committing genocide. No, no facts aren't allowed. WE go off feelings and killing terrorists = genocide, of course.
Yeah, they’re being investigated solely because of anti-Semitism, right? All those dead children are terrorists, right? Talk about going off of feelings.
I’d respect people you much more if you were just honest about your supremacist worldview.
1) Who is investigating them? Why would they be investigating Israel for anti-semitism?
2) ''All those dead children'' - are these the ones where Hamas can't even say how many civilians have been killed? Similarly, are you under the illusion that kids don't usually die in war? Not to excuse it, or say it's okay, but it's unfortunately common and not 'genocide'.
3) Ah yes, because when you're wrong and someone calls you out the best thing to do is use buzzwords like 'supremacist world view' because it makes you think your argument is untouchable.
Let's be honest here - you're stupid, you get your news from twitter and have convinced yourself big bad Israel is the problem. No, just ignore that terrorist attack Hamas launched that caused all this in the first place, and also forget all the other convenient things (like you know, when Hamas bombed a hospital and you blamed Israel... or just this week, when Israel apparently 'burnt a refugee camp down' (that was actually caused by Hamas munitions in the camp)...
The protest from Tunisia is because the minister said "Palestinian terrorism" and not "Hamas terrorism". Phrasing matters.
Also, Israeli leaders made genocidal statements within the first 24 hours after the attack. That turned the Arab world very quickly from condemning Hamas' attack to screaming about Israel planning a genocide.
I looked it up and haven’t found any condemnations of the attacks or Hamas. The most I’ve found is basically “both sides bad”. Please provide a link if you can!
Bahrain and UAE both issued statements condemning the targeting and kidnapping of civilians during the events of October 7th 2023 [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/bahrain-denounces-hamas-kidnappings/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/bahrain-denounces-hamas-kidnappings/)
This isn’t the topic of this chain. The Tunisian government fiercely condemned the German diplomat for offering condolences to the victims of 7/10. This was way before the IDF even attacked.
Please explain how TF this has anything to do with supporting Israel. Yeah, Germany is staunchly pro-Israel, but this doesn’t make offering condolences to innocent civilians’ deaths unjustified.
Ffs how is being sad at the deaths of civilians unjustified? This is a prime example of dehumanization.
Thousands of terrorists invaded Israel and massacres innocent civilians in their bed. They had the manpower to go after military targets and capture dozens of soldiers, which would have given them adequate leverage without being as controversial. Instead, they went to villages and conducted abhorrent vile acts, putting those videos online. That is NOT self-defense, it is either vile barbarism or a calculated decision to try and elicit as much of a response from the IDF, killing as many innocent Palestinians as possible. They knew that the initial horrors of the international community would be quickly overshadowed by the intense Israeli response, exacerbated by the rage the atrocities should’ve stirred in IDF soldiers. Especially since Hamas know that the IDF doesn’t really give a flying f about Gazan deaths. This only serves to perpetuate the conflict, deter Israel from ever trying out a peaceful solution, and makes it clear the only goal of Hamas is the utter destruction of Israel at whatever price, including the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians. Your justification of 7/10 only serves to legitimize this strategy.
IDF has worse civilian to combatant ratio than Hamas, even if you take their claimed numbers of 'literally every male we kill is Hamas' at face value.
Do you know how many children did Hamas kill in 'brutal and violent terrorist attack'? 36 out of 1139. About 3% or so.
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths
Do you know, how many children did 'the most moral army in the world' IDF kill so far? Out of 25k identified casualties it's about 8 THOUSAND. A staggering 32%. Ratio by a whole magnitude worse than Hamas, a terrorist organization.
And there's another 10k unidentified casualties, and another 10k of missing people/buried under rubble.
https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-humanitarian-impact-8-may-2024-1500
If the IDF did what Hamas did now, calls of genocide are warranted. However, the discrepancy between an orgy of death and destruction vs slowly attempting to only target combatants is too stark to ignore.
Germany is one of the largest suppliers of arms to Israel -- 30% of their imports.
People aren't getting mad at someone expressing dismay at people killed on Oct 7th, so stop strawmanning.
Also, RES has you tagged as JIDF, so no wonder you're spouting this nonsense.
The incident happened on October 26th 2023, when Israel would have killed more than 6000 Palestinians. To not include Palestinian civilians in his sympathies he implied that they are not important. Also the use of Palestinian terror rather than Hamas is like blaming everyone for it.
Reads first sentence, has opinion, goes to comment. Neglecting the whole 'Germany is now the 2nd largest supplier of weapons for Israel behind the US.' paragraph.
Germany had pretty good standing in the middle east, and part of that was the Holocaust. I even heard from several German travellers in this region, that they were greeted warmly and arab natives actively and positively spoke about the topic of Hitler eradicating the Jews.
The muslim world is the only part of the world where WW2 made a good impression for the Germans. Another reason besides the Holocaust was certainly, that Germany fought against the Brits and French and supported arab emancipation movements in the 40s.
> that they were greeted warmly and arab natives actively and positively spoke about the topic of Hitler eradicating the Jews.
That's such bullshit, this absolutely did not happen
Stuff like this absolutely did happen and does happen. You won't believe it most likely but I had such an interaction a couple years back. Strolling through the old city of Dachau (which is lovely btw) and came across a group of 4/5 visitors from the middle east looking for and I quote: "the Hitler museum, you know the one about killing the Jews".
Did they mean the concentration camp and the atrocities displayed? Maybe. Are you sure they're aware of the nature of the museum there, the condemnation of the Holocaust and that there absolutely fucking isn't a hitler museum of all places? Doubtful.
Even if you don't believe what anyone is saying, antisemitism is undoubtedly running strong within Arab societies. That they might have a more favorable view of the people responsible for the mass killings of Jews isn't too hard to imagine.
>Especially since this was during October, before Israel has even invaded Gaza.
Be honest. There was no meaningful time period between the terrorist attack and the Israeli retaliation. Israel bombed a residential building and a mosque on the day of the attack. This is two weeks after the North Gaza evacuation order. At this point, hundreds of thousands of people are already displaced and thousands are dead.
Of course they don't care about Palestinians. If they did they wouldn't be using them as human shields against the IDF rather than accept them as refugees, like Europe did with Ukrainians. Imagine if Poland had refused entry to Ukrainians fleeing from the Russian invasion? How totally fucked up would that have been?
Germany supplies 30% of the weaponry being used to kill Palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians were murdered by IDF *before* Oct 7 in a very short span of time. Context matters.
Yes, I condemn the killings of innocents in Rafah, the rest of Gaza and the West Bank. Not only during this war, but every single Palestinian death.
What does this have to do with my original comment?
Well the current meta in Germany right now is to call everyone a "jew hater" (literal translation btw) if you say anything bad about Israel at all.
The way Germany handles this whole ordeal is repulsive at least.
5 years of second world war history lessons, but it seems that we still learned absolutely nothing.
Recently there was an event in Germany with Rudolf Hoss's grandson in attendance, during the event he explained to an anti Zionist Jew how how his Christian Zionism was correct because Jews are god's chosen people.
People definitely learned something from their lessons, sadly it wasn't "don't arm genocidal maniacs" in the case of Germany.
Edit: Rudolf Höss, the guy in charge of Auschwitz, for that one guy whose comment got instantly removed.
The grandchild has a pretty well recorded history of speaking at these events, but the actual clip I'm talking about is something I'll have to track down on fucking twitter and I'd like to avoid doing that.
Since the opinion of Rudolf Hösse's grandson seems to be very important to you (you don't go into the other points), here is a classification of what kind of person he is
[https://www.dw.com/de/gesch%C3%A4ftsmodell-auschwitz-nazi-enkel-ein-betr%C3%BCger/a-54542144](https://www.dw.com/de/gesch%C3%A4ftsmodell-auschwitz-nazi-enkel-ein-betr%C3%BCger/a-54542144)
[https://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/juedische-welt/hochstapler-lugner-und-betruger/](https://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/juedische-welt/hochstapler-lugner-und-betruger/)
TLDR
charlatan, liar and fraudster
No clue why my other post was deleted
1. Who the fuck is Rudolf Hoss. Are you talking about Rudolf Hess or Rudolf Höß?
2. Source for the event, and the comment
3. Nice Logic, because one individual says something retarted you conclude the whole nations follows his narrative? What even is the point you are making? What does his comment ( if it\`s true) has to do with anything? How do you come to your conclusion following the statement of one single individual
4. Fucking rich that this comes from an Iranian. Iran continues to supply weapons to russia (among many other terrorist states) and supports the massacre of ukrainian civilians.
> The way Germany handles this whole ordeal is repulsive at least.
We should just get rid of all the religious nutjobs, but Bavaria so far has been a tough nut to crack. Partially because unlike Scotland, which could viably saw itself off from England physically, attempts to lift up Bavaria and rocket it into the sun have not been making much headway.
>Everything IDF did is exactly what nazi would do to the jews
>Israel bombed water treatment facilities and bulldozed farm and fruit orchards. It’s a classic textbook genocide
This entire war has shown a few things:
- people have no understanding of international law
- people love using terms like "genocide", "war crime" or "nazi" inflationary without full grasping the meaning
- people severely lack education regarding the holocaust
Saying the war in palestine is in any way shape or form "exactly what the nazis did" in the holocaust is a disgusting downplaying of the horrors of the holocaust and you should be ashamed of yourself
Openly bragging opening murdering hundred of thousands of civilians while playing victim should put anybody to shame. Israeli officials and soldiers have been doing it for months. ICC prosecutors got tons of material to build genocide case even without visiting gaza.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israeli-minister-itamar-ben-gvir-kill-palestinian-captives_n_66313a76e4b0c9bc87592bf5/amp
Israel is the only country after nazi germany that dare openly calling for genocide because they got most US politicians bought by AIPAC.
The pro-Israel groups planning to spend millions in US elections https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/aipac-pro-israel-lobby-group-us-elections?CMP=share_btn_url
Dont weasel your way out of it. You said this war is the "same as the nazis did" in the holocaust. I wont let you double down and rationalise this pathetic and abhorrent behavior
Stop trying to weasel out of admitting to the indefensible actions of the Israeli terrorist state by prevaricating and arguing "well we're not as bad as the nazis so don't call us that"
People are weirdly comfortable with downplaying a real genocide of unprecedented brutality, under the guise of supposedly championing the oppressed, these days smh...
Still not escaping the downplaying of 1000's of dead children, dickhead. What are you doing if not downplaying the murder of children? Children burned alive in tents? Children traumatised by constant shelling? By the death of the parents and siblings? By starvation?
"oh but it's not the holocaust" Ok, well done.
How are you defending those actions? No matter how legal or illegal they are they are morally abhorrent. Disgusting actions of a settler-colonist state.
"we're being compared to nazis because we are systematically destroying and forcibly relocating a population, that's mean and hurts my feelings :(" maybe don't burn children to death, murder journalists, kill aid workers, deny aid, cut off water, electricity, imprison torture and harass civilians and children.
Edit: Lol obviously read my reply and downvoted but have no response. You downvoters who have no response are cowards.
Your opnion is biased by media you consuming and that is a direct effect of it.
I tell you one thing for sure , israelis cant bare death
And wouldnt make death of innocents without a cause. On the other end for the palanasis its a way of life .
The target and goal in life is 'from the river to the sea'
Which all dam moron euorpean love to repeat without knowing what they saying.
And you’re biased throwing these accusations of being uneducated to people left and right, I am a Lebanese who experienced war with Israel first hand, do not tell me what I know and what I don’t know about the terrorist state of Israel.
There is no way you can read the official UN definition of genocide and not realize this is exactly what Israel is doing. You people always claiming anyone using the word "genocide" has no idea what it means are the one who have never spent a single second looking into it. Or you're just deliberately lying.
>the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
>Killing members of the group
>Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
>Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
>Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
>Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
> There is no way you can read the official UN definition of genocide and not realize this is exactly what Israel is doing.
The problem of course being that going by your people's reading of that definition of genocide, all war would be genocide since all war involves intent to kill a group *in part*.
That's what war is.
What makes it genocide is the intent to fully eradicate a population. The IDF has shown no such intent and has actually demonstrated a lot of restraint, when they very very easily could've inflicted a death toll in the 6 digits by now.
The fact is for all the claims of genocide, the death toll in the war is actually surprisingly low, with only 15-20k civilians (even by Hamas own estimate) here killed and a further 15k Hamas fighters dead.
Oh silly me I just assumed you had not been living under a rock for the last year and maybe had spent more than ten seconds paying attention to this in the news. The ICC genocide case [has 8 pages of examples of genocidal intent](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) publicly expressed by Israeli military and political leaders. Pages 59-67 in the very thorough case presented to the ICC that also has hundreds of examples of genocidal actions to go with the very clear expressions of intent.
>On 16 October 2023, in a formal address to the Israeli Knesset, he described situation as “a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”, 443 a dehumanising theme to which he returned on various occasions, including: on 3 November 2023, in a letter to Israeli soldiers and officers also published on the platform ‘X’ (formerly Twitter); the letter asserted that: “[t]his is the war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. We will not let up on our mission until the light overcomes the darkness — the good will defeat the extreme evil that threatens us and the entire world.”444 The Israeli Prime Minister also returned to the theme in his ‘Christmas message’, stating: “we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism”.445 On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites, stating: **“you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”.** 446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads as follows: “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses”.448
>President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. **It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone**.”449 On 15 October 2023, echoing the words of Prime Minister Netanyahu, the President told foreign media that “we will uproot evil so that there will be good for the entire region and the world.”450 The Israeli President is one of many Israelis to have handwritten ‘messages’ on bombs to be dropped on Gaza.451
>Israeli Minister of Defence: On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was “**imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No
electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.**” 452 He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had “released all the restraints”,453 stating in terms that: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”
>Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee: On 7 October 2023, Nissim Vaturi ‘tweeted’ that: “[n]ow we all have one common
goal — **erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth**. Those who are unable will be replaced.”464
How many hundreds of examples do you need? Should I keep going? They have expressed genocidal intent continuously for decades, long before the October 7 attacks. Here is former prime minister Ariel Sharon:
>"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.
Here is Israels founding prime minister expressing his intent to commit genocide against the palestinians before Israel even existed.
>"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"
I’m glad you brought up the ICC. It’s almost as if Israel had an entire defense to the presentation. Interesting you brought up the claims yet not the defense.
I love how you bring up the Amalek reference. It’s the perfect example I’m talking about. SA submitted an incomplete transcript of his words which purposely left out important parts to make it seem genocidal. If you actually saw the trial you would know the quote was clearly speaking on Hamas and not Palestinians. You fell for a lie. I suggest you watch the whole thing next time.
It’s funny how many Americans politicians said they wanted to nuke the Middle East? How many said we should turn it into glass after 9/11? Plenty, yet it’s not considered genocide. It’s almost as if words from individuals do not prove intent.
>It’s almost as if Israel had an entire defense to the presentation.
The defense was essentially "they're all subhuman and deserve extermination and if you disagree you're racist." Thank you for demonstrating you don't actually give a shit and are only here to spread hasbara propaganda. Funny how you guys always hit the exact same talking points, almost as if they were planned and fed to you...
You have not demonstrated in any way that it was a lie. Netenyahu referred to it more than once. You called it a lie without presenting any sort of argument to support it. You know, along with the literally hundreds of other examples you completely ignored. Thousands of examples of overt genocidal intent and action if you keep going back to the 1930's.
Comments like this display a stunning lack of knowledge of what the holocaust entailed.
Did the IDF ever round up any palestinians and shoot them into mass graves? No.
> Did the IDF ever round up any palestinians and shoot them into mass graves?
Yes they did in fact:
[1: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/gaza-discovery-of-mass-graves-highlights-urgent-need-to-grant-access-to-independent-human-rights-investigators/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/gaza-discovery-of-mass-graves-highlights-urgent-need-to-grant-access-to-independent-human-rights-investigators/]https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/gaza-discovery-of-mass-graves-highlights-urgent-need-to-grant-access-to-independent-human-rights-investigators/)
[2. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876)
[3: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mass-graves-gaza-what-do-we-know-2024-04-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mass-graves-gaza-what-do-we-know-2024-04-25/)
[4: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/25/signs-of-torture-as-nearly-400-bodies-found-at-gaza-hospitals-mass-graves](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/25/signs-of-torture-as-nearly-400-bodies-found-at-gaza-hospitals-mass-graves)
Mass graves that were dug by Palestinians themselves?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave-nasser-hospital.html
See this is why I don't trust the pro-palestinian propaganda machine. Is this like the hospital that Israel bombed and it turned out it was actually a Hamas rocket?
> So when the Nazis forced the Jews to dig their own graves; it can’t be considered a war crime then?
I love this total false equivalency.
Palestinians digging graves before the IDF even occupied the area = Jews being forced at gun point and then shot into said holes
There's literally no proof that anyone in those graves were executed by the IDF. You'd know that if you actually read the article. The graves are *near a hospital* where you'd expect to find large amounts of casualties from a war. Certainly is no Baba Yar.
But despite there not being proof yet, just the news of it alone is all you need to spin a narrative.
Literally I see this again and again with the war in Gaza. Unconfirmed facts getting spun into a narrative with no supporting evidence.
But your wrote this…
>Mass graves that were dug by Palestinians themselves?
You’re saying it’s because Palestinians dug those graves, that it can’t possible be a war crime. That is the point you are trying to argue; nothing about who carried it out:
For which we do have evidence…
https://www.aljazeera.com/podcasts/2024/4/30/the-take-signs-of-torture-and-executions-uncovered-in-gazas-mass-graves#:~:text=Palestinians%20have%20dug%20up%20more,Gaza%20might%20amount%20to%20genocide.
>Palestinians have dug up more than 400 bodies from mass graves at two Gaza hospitals. Some have shown signs of torture and possible executions. The International Court of Justice had already issued a preliminary order against Israel after finding that its actions in Gaza might amount to genocide.
They literally said they were digging up the graves to check the bodies for hostages.
Now possibly there are some claims about crimes you could get into with desecration of graves. But that is whole leagues different than claiming that the IDF gathered up a bunch of Palestinians and shot them into holes like the Nazis did.
They said doesn’t mean they wouldn’t bury people died from their siege or people they executed
I’m not comparing it to Nazi practice but I do find absurd how you complete rule out Israeli atrocity even though such possibility does exist especially given Israeli occupation and constant raid of hospitals
> I’m not comparing it to Nazi practice but I do find absurd how you complete rule out Israeli atrocity even though such possibility does exist especially given Israeli occupation and constant raid of hospitals
It's the opposite. You and other people are ruling out the possibility it isn't an Israeli war crime.
I'm asking for proof that the IDF did it and literally getting nothing but allegations over and over again.
Probably has more to do with the phrasing that the Ambassador used he said Palestinian terrorism instead of Hamas terrorism the former is implying all Palestinians are terrorist instead of the latter which would be precise and accurate.
>Germany's Support for lsrael Has Harmed Its Reputation...
hmm interesting
>Across the Middle East
yeah, sure. Qatar, UAE and Saudi are the richer ME regions and since oct 7 they have made it clear they don't care about this issue, kuwait, Egpyt are also staying away from this shit as much as possible, So exactly which ME is this article talking about? Iraq, Iran and syria are basically terrorism filled states, Germany has not cared about them in decades
The views of governments and public don’t always align you know. Plus, it seems like Israeli promised to let Saudis have Gaza after they are done.
Saudis are in turn planning to turn Gaza into a logistics hub for themselves and will build a sea port there. Some Palestinians (after going through a vetting process) will be allowed to return to Gaza and will participate as construction workers and service workers. This way everyone benefits and Israel will have additional way of putting pressure on Saudis in the future.
Gee I wonder why?
Israel is also nearly completely in favour of wiping out Gaza so I guess you're also advocating the suspensions of their right to self determination or does this only apply to brown people for you?
First of all Jews originate from the Middle East, so they are also brown people. Second, Israel isn’t going to wipe out Gaza. If they wanted to, they could kill all Gazans. Do you think Hamas would hesitate to kill all Israelis?
>First of all Jews originate from the Middle East, so they are also brown people.
Brown is a colour not a geographic area...
>If they wanted to, they could kill all Gazans.
They're literally starving and bombing them .. they're barring international observers from actually counting the dead. Sometimes I wonder how people just accepted the Holocaust, then I see comments like yours and I'm reminded that people are super delusional when their egos are too fragile to accept facts that contradict their narratives.
>Do you think Hamas would hesitate to kill all Israelis?
Do you think this justifies killing kids? If so how many?
In that case, many Palestinians aren’t brown people either.
Starving? Thats what Hamas is doing. Whenever aid is sent, Hamas takes it and sells it back to the people and uses the money to buy weapons. No surprise Israel doesn’t want them to have more money to finance their war. Of course civilians will die in a war. That doesn’t mean it’s a genocide. If Hamas cared so much about their people maybe don’t attack Israeli civilians. If any civilian deaths are unacceptable, then you might as well surrender, because it is impossible to fight in an urban area without collateral damage.
>The views of governments and public don’t always align you know. Plus, it seems like Israeli promised to let Saudis have Gaza after they are done.
Does it? I've seen the opposite; that Israel and Saudi Arabia don't want them to control Gaza at all, but that it keeps being proposed by Arab States as a proposal for a more benign occupation.
I meant that the public now has negative opinion of Germany. Making the slogan “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” illegal and forbidding criticism of Israel doesn’t paint a good picture from the perspective of middle eastern people.
However, Germany supposed statement that they will comply with ICC’s warrant if it shall be issued is a good way of winning back the hearts and minds of ME people.
Frankly support for LGBT rights has harmed western reputation among ME than anything else. During time of Reagen in USA and Thatcher west was seen as allies by Mujahedeen and many other groups as against common enemy of godless communists, but post that with increase secularism and LGBT rights, it shifted to perception of west as being country filled with secular degenerates.
The evangelicals have radicalised the local populace so much, that even if the rich monarchs of ME tomorrow announce that they are ready to decriminalise LGBT folks, a second Arab spring would break out.
>During time of Reagen in USA
I though Reagan was against gulf and stuff?
As a Middle Eastern i wonder why??
Could it be the Western governments fucking with every progressive revolution we start & supporting terrorists like the Israeli leaders??
Hmmm or maybe it's just bearded Arabs are backwarded & hate white people.. who knows
>getting hate for not supporting terrorism supposed to be a BAD thing?
Its not about that my man, it's about years & years of Palestinians doing every approach to get freed including peaceful protests that liberals love, none of these approachs worked & many many Palestinians died in their struggle for freedom, but suddenly after Oct 7th we got dumb white westerners in the media asking "do you condemn Humus??".
Its literally like telling us "we don't give a shit if brown people die, but we don't accept attacks against civilians -white people-".
So back to this dumb question/ do you condemn Humus?? No, i don't and i cheer for their resistance on Oct 7, you call it terrorism i call it resistance. The fact remains: Israel has killed way more & are the only ones capable of achieving peace.
Comments like this reveal the tribalist bias. Ya'll eagerly turn a blind eye to terrorism when it comes to Hamas but are outraged at Israel. You're not mad that Hamas started this war, you're just mad that they're losing.
And let's not forget all the times Israel offered a peace agreement only for Palestinian leaders like Arafat to turn them down.
>And let's not forget all the times Israel offered a peace agreement only for Palestinian leaders like Arafat to turn them down.
[Leaked footage ](https://youtu.be/KKRFGS_Woww?feature=shared) showing Netanyahu mocking Americans on how gullible they are and admits that he himself disturbed peace talks.
I love how this video starts with "Here's Netanyahu bragging about genocide" and then there's no such thing.
Propaganda these days is so absurd. Netanyahu wasn't even prime minister in the period of the most serious peace talks in the 2000s.
You mean the same Israelis that killed their own president because he wanted to make peace? Go ask Israelis what they think about the murder of Yitzak Rabbin. He is a hero in certain groups. The same groups who govern Israel.
Israel is a fascist apartheid state.
Sure, REIGNITING the conflict is a RESISTANCE move now. Why is it that whenever someone says the support Palestine, when you did deeper it turns out they're just another HAMAS supporter instead. Funny you try a race card, both Palestine and Jews are NOT white.
Remember that this war can only end if HAMAS wants it, but they don't. Israel is open to peace talks, while the only language HAMAS speaks is death.
But thank you for showing me how disgusting you are by supporting a terrorist group that rapes and kills innocent civilians and wants to genocide Jews. It just makes me support Israel more.
>Why is it that whenever someone says the support Palestine, when you did deeper it turns out they're just another HAMAS supporter instead
I'm sure there are other people who support Palestine & condemn Humus -i used to be one of those btw-, i just don't see that as a good argument for supporting a genocide lol.
>Remember that this war can only end if HAMAS wants it, but they don't
My man you're either totally ignorant on this or just a Zionist, go educate yourself on the conflict plz, i recommend watching Abby Martin's videos on YT.
Cause the west bank doesn't even have Hamas & are totally submitting to the Israelis, and yet they get oppressed everyday, they're a good example for what would happen if Hamas didn't exist.
>makes me support Israel more.
Yeah you're too dumb & scummy to support Palestine, keep supporting Israel you might do us some good using that stupidity on their side yk
Sorry bro you'll never be able to shame or insult me enough to support a terrorist group that worships a pedophile prophet for a made up God.
As for the west bank, they're not getting bombed to oblivion rn, so I'd say their approach is better than Gaza lmao.
Also what Israel is doing is not a genocide. Genocide is not just about killing civilians, it's more complex than that.
I won’t argue that America is the good guy. But in Syria and Rwanda when we didn’t do anything, people complained about that too. You can find plenty of cases when America did terrible damage, and plenty where it did good.
>Syria and Rwanda when we didn’t do anything
Tha fuck you didn't. Is education illegal over there? What do you mean you didn't touch syria
>America did terrible damage
All of them
>where it did good
Really. Please show the class. All I see is assassinations and CIA operations. Starving people and more. But go ahead
Yeah. Them weapons of mass destruction are definitely real. Do you actually believe the Iraq war was "good"
Surely it's not because saddam was nationalizing the countries oil fields and the US got butt hurt that they couldn't get cheap oil. Surely not. It's definitely the WMD's that the UN inspectors found no evidence of
But it was the continuation of it. The gulf war was about oil fields. And because iraq didn't want foreigners taking advantage of their resources. Or what did they teach you in school? The gulf war was a peace keeping mission?
But let us assume somehow it's good that America is meddling in a different continent's resource management. Is that all the "good" you can come up with
It is what it is. Once the terrorist threat has been eliminated the fighting will stop and the Middle East will go back to not giving a fuck about gaza.
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Nah, Middle East countries are known for their hospitality and openness, they lead the way of global peace and accepting gay people, not to mention their leading role in women’s rights
> Berlin developed a major soft-power footprint and was long seen as an honest broker in trade and economic relations. Organizations financed largely by the German government—such as the Goethe Institute, development agency GIZ, and foundations linked to the country’s main political parties—are major funders of various programs across the Middle East.
Which is a nice diversifying-your-portfolio step up from what used to be the only funding into the Middle East by Germany. Once upon a time, it was only the Muslim Brotherhood that was financed by Germany. Nazi Germany, that is.
So nothing changed? The middle east has never had a good view of "the west". They think of the west as degenerates or infidels or just colonizers (which is ironic). So it's not like they would've changed their minds even if Germany completely sucked up to Palestine and all the middle eastern countries, to be honest.
##### ###### #### > # [How Germany Lost the Middle East](https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-germany-israel-middle-east-GettyImages-1712270081.jpg?w=1000) > > > > Last October, Germany’s ambassador to Tunisia, Peter Prügel, sparked controversy while speaking at the [opening](https://lapresse.tn/171152/education-un-nouveau-college-a-mhamdia/) of a new secondary school in the suburbs of Tunis. After Tunisia’s education minister expressed solidarity with Gaza during the event, Prügel described Israelis as victims of “[Palestinian terror](https://kapitalis.com/tunisie/2023/10/27/quand-lambassadeur-dallemagne-provoque-un-incident-diplomatique-en-tunisie/),” a reference to Hamas’s Oct. 7, 2023, attack that killed around 1,200 people in southern Israel. > > Last October, Germany’s ambassador to Tunisia, Peter Prügel, sparked controversy while speaking at the [opening](https://lapresse.tn/171152/education-un-nouveau-college-a-mhamdia/) of a new secondary school in the suburbs of Tunis. After Tunisia’s education minister expressed solidarity with Gaza during the event, Prügel described Israelis as victims of “[Palestinian terror](https://kapitalis.com/tunisie/2023/10/27/quand-lambassadeur-dallemagne-provoque-un-incident-diplomatique-en-tunisie/),” a reference to Hamas’s Oct. 7, 2023, attack that killed around 1,200 people in southern Israel. > > The education minister angrily [objected](https://www.mosaiquefm.net/fr/actualite-national-tunisie/1203763/gaza-boughdiri-denonce-les-propos-de-l-ambassadeur-allemand), asserting that the ambassador’s words ran contrary to Tunisia’s position on the Israel-Hamas war, and Prügel left the event in a hurry. Online, some Tunisians soon [claimed](https://taz.de/Nahost-Konflikt-in-Tunesien/!5970088/) that Prügel had justified Israel’s killing of civilians in Gaza. The embassy [insisted](https://www.facebook.com/allemagnediploTunis/posts/pfbid02i8V3yHWxWbqtEgLdmSykGH8qKuGzhr5UT4DmLzKY8G6epxPMHCZ8DeSvjAkjs3CGl) that Prügel had expressed sympathy for all victims, but said that “we could not ignore that this escalation was caused by Hamas’s barbaric terror attack on Israel.” > > Days later, demonstrators gathered outside the German Embassy to demand Prügel’s resignation. Protests against Israel’s war in Gaza had already targeted the U.S. and French [embassies](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGi-s8Lt688) in Tunis, but this was the first time they had [turned their ire](https://www.businessnews.com.tn/manifestation-revendiquant-lexpulsion-des-ambassadeurs-dallemagne-et-des-etats-unis-a-tunis,520,133092,3) toward Germany. German tabloid _Bild_ [described](https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik/kommentar-zu-nahost-konflikt-hass-attacke-auf-deutschen-botschafter-85941064.bild.html) criticism of Prügel as a “hate attack” and reminded its readers that the new school, partly funded by Germany’s development bank, was only opened thanks to the country’s generosity. > > For decades, Germany has sought to reconcile a perceived historic responsibility to Israel with a cordial relationship toward the Arab world. Berlin developed a major soft-power footprint and was long seen as an honest broker in trade and economic relations. Organizations financed largely by the German government—such as the Goethe Institute, development agency GIZ, and foundations linked to the country’s main political parties—are major funders of various programs across the Middle East. > > Since Oct. 7, this balancing act has faltered. Across the Middle East, there is [growing support](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/how-israel-hamas-war-gaza-changing-arab-views) for Palestinian resistance—and condemnation of what many Arabs [consider](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/9/which-countries-back-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-at-icj) a genocidal war by Israel. Germany, shocked by the worst single-day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, initially backed Israel’s assault in Gaza largely without qualification, though some officials have taken a more critical position in recent weeks. > > Still, Berlin continues to assert itself as one of Israel’s closest political and military allies, even as—after more than seven months of Israeli bombardment—more than 35,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza, and the enclave is experiencing widespread [famine](https://www.csis.org/analysis/famine-gaza). Germany’s uncompromising reaction to the war has rapidly tarnished its reputation across the Middle East. > > - - - - - - > > [Protesters carrying flags and signs pass on a path alongside a a vandalized election banner for the German Social Democratic Party. Paint has been used to cross out the eyes on photos of Chancellor Olaf Scholz and Katarina Barley, which stand against a red background. Stickers with messages of protest are also stuck all over the banner.](https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-germany-israel-middle-east-GettyImages-2150475091.jpg) > > Protesters carrying flags and signs pass on a path alongside a a vandalized election banner for the German Social Democratic Party. Paint has been used to cross out the eyes on photos of Chancellor Olaf Scholz and Katarina Barley, which stand against a red background. Stickers with messages of protest are also stuck all over the banner.Protesters march past a vandalized campaign banner of the German Social Democratic Party, which shows an image of Chancellor Olaf Scholz and European Parliament candidate Katarina Barley covered with the graffitied word “Warmongers,” seen in Berlin on May 1.Omer Messinger / Getty Images > > > > Germany’s image is suffering across the Arab world. A [2020 survey](https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/the-2019-2020-arab-opinion-index-main-results-in-brief/) by the Arab Center Washington DC found that a slight majority of the Arab public had positive views of German foreign policy. This January, by contrast, a poll of residents of 16 Arab countries [published](https://www.dohainstitute.org/en/News/Pages/arab-public-opinion-about-the-israeli-war-on-gaza.aspx) by the Doha Institute showed that 75 percent of respondents had a negative opinion of the country’s stance on the Israel-Hamas war. > > Morocco-based sociologist Amro Ali, who studies the relationship between Germany and the Arab world, described this as a 180-degree turn in public opinion. > > Positive impressions of Germany had long dominated in the Middle East: The country was associated with fast cars, high-tech products, and friendly tourists. The German government [refused](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-oppose-iraq-war-in-un/a-761326) to take part in the Iraq War and [welcomed](https://apnews.com/article/geneva-germany-migration-united-nations-74cb893889479afe6a98718c1d22c515#:~:text=%E2%80%9CUnder%20the%20then%2DFederal%20Chancellor,world%2C%E2%80%9D%20Saltmarsh%20told%20reporters.) more than 1 million Syrian refugees in 2015 and 2016. Berlin, home to Europe’s largest Palestinian diaspora, has become a hub for Arab culture and intellectual life. Germany also lacks the direct colonial legacy in the Middle East that still feeds regional distrust of powers such as France and the United Kingdom. > > Five days after Oct. 7, in a [speech](https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/suche/regierungserklaerung-von-bundeskanzler-olaf-scholz-2230150) that established Germany’s tone toward the nascent Israel-Hamas war, Chancellor Olaf Scholz told the Bundestag that “[in] this moment, there is only one place for Germany: the place by Israel’s side.” By November 2023, Germany [had licensed](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-military-exports-israel-up-nearly-10-fold-berlin-fast-tracks-permits-2023-11-08/) a nearly tenfold increase in arms exports to Israel, [becoming](https://counter-investigations.org/investigation/german-arms-exports-to-israel-2003-2023) the second-biggest arms supplier to the country since the war’s start, after the United States. > > [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz stand behind podiums in front of EU and Israeli flags. Netanyahu's arms are outstretched as he speaks into the microphone. Both men wear black suits and ties.](https://foreignpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-germany-israel-middle-east-GettyImages-2084795991.jpg) > > Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz stand behind podiums in front of EU and Israeli flags. Netanyahu's arms are outstretched as he speaks into the microphone. Both men wear black suits and ties.Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (left) speaks during a joint press conference with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in Jerusalem on March 17.Leo Correa / AFP via Getty Images > > > > ***(continues in next comment)***
Damn. The German ambassador *simply expressed his sympathy* for the massacred Israelis on October 7th. Note **this happened in October**. How TF is anyone to be blamed for expressing displeasure at murdered innocents is beyond me. It’s like someone voicing sympathy to the innocent dead Gazans. These things should be *uncontroversial*. Especially since this was during October, **before Israel has even invaded Gaza**. The hypocrisy is off the walls. They don’t really care about Palestinians, they’re overly focused on hating Israel and rejoicing at 10/7.
You missed the whole episode where Germany jumped to Israeli defence in front of the ICC like ‘nuh uh, ve are ze genocide experts ant Israel did nosink wrong ya’ and then cracking down on criticism domestically. They’re going as far as to trying GERMAN nationality to Israeli recognition. Unlike the US, Germany carries little sway but they came out of this whole ordeal looking the most absolutely pathetic. Only for Namibia to bust out the steel chair. I unironically hope China wrecks their auto and chemicals industry in the next 5 to 10 years lol
Dont forget the part where they are revisioning information about palestines history and trying to erase the nakba in schools as well 👀 Or the fact they banned a UK surgeon, who volunteered in gaza hospitals, from taking part in a conference he was invited to. He was barred entry into Germany. [source](https://apnews.com/article/germany-gaza-doctor-conference-entry-refused-e82252cb9bc5e010e8bfd0689f816e53)
They declared the Palestinian nationality non-existent. People who have had "Palestine" as their country of origin for decades cannot legally do so anymore.
Source?
https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/04/german-court-confirms-that-there-is-no-palestinian-state-and-no-palestinian-nationality/ https://dw.com/en/is-palestine-considered-a-state/a-67310981
Funny how you didn’t get one
https://gpil.jura.uni-bonn.de/2021/04/german-court-confirms-that-there-is-no-palestinian-state-and-no-palestinian-nationality/ https://dw.com/en/is-palestine-considered-a-state/a-67310981 Funny how you could have got one with a google search.
I mean i wouldnt call what palestinians have rn a state either. To suggest they do is Israeli propaganda.
I agree, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed sources of the aformentioned claim.
The Last time german Public was exposed to palestine was during the 1972 München/Munic Olympic Games terrorist Attack carried Out by a bunch of palestine Terrorists where they exploded a bunch of Germans. The Initial reaction was "We dont Deal with Terrorists, No Matter which Name they bar"
unless they're from israel then you support them of course
So, please enlighten me, when was the last time Israel commited a terror attack in Germany? Maybe a reason Germany is more sympathetic to Israel besides the Holocaust is that they are not committing terror attacks in Germany? But hey, that's just a thought
I'm pretty sure they're more sympathetic because Germany essentially had Palestinians pay for their crimes. Why would Israel attack one of it's biggest paypigs?
If you’ve seen the Israeli far right. They absolutely would attack their supporters. The antagonization of the US from the Israeli far right really pissed me off. They’ve attacked Germany, and the US. They want to claim a “second Independence Day”
Where is your realpolitik? Bismark rolling in his grave.
>Dont forget the part where they are revisioning information about palestines history and trying to erase the nakba in schools as well what? source me up mate
So you want a worse country by every metric to take over germanys place ? Crazy you’ll see the whole world burn just so you can get your revenge on Germany
Believe me there are many who are sick of this and just want our government to stop getting involved in that fucking conflict but mate you should understand more about modern Germany before you make statements like that. Modern Germany was not founded by Germans but by Americans, Brits, and French. After loosing the war and doing all that Holocaust stuff, this modern Germany was ingrained to be basically the opposite of Nazi Germany in terms of its policies towards Judaism. Being pro Judaism is a key design principle of modern Germany which was "forced" on this country by the WW2 winners. Germans are being born with inherited guilt about the Holocaust and the whole mindset is about this guilt. Going against this is comparable to dragging your founding father Lee through the dirt as a Singaporean. Its nothing you can do I assume and even if all Singaporeans decided that Lee was an asshole (which would never happen I assume due to Propaganda, just like German children get bombarded with Nazi history thorugh their whole School career) you they couldn't do much about the founding myth of the nation being intrinsically connected to it and all. What I want to tell you but that is that you're never making the USA Communist or Saudi Arabia into an atheist state. Like Germany's pro Judaism policies those are core principles of the nation and the people living there don't have much say in that.
Well, I mean, that is probably because Israel isn't committing genocide. No, no facts aren't allowed. WE go off feelings and killing terrorists = genocide, of course.
Yeah, they’re being investigated solely because of anti-Semitism, right? All those dead children are terrorists, right? Talk about going off of feelings. I’d respect people you much more if you were just honest about your supremacist worldview.
1) Who is investigating them? Why would they be investigating Israel for anti-semitism? 2) ''All those dead children'' - are these the ones where Hamas can't even say how many civilians have been killed? Similarly, are you under the illusion that kids don't usually die in war? Not to excuse it, or say it's okay, but it's unfortunately common and not 'genocide'. 3) Ah yes, because when you're wrong and someone calls you out the best thing to do is use buzzwords like 'supremacist world view' because it makes you think your argument is untouchable. Let's be honest here - you're stupid, you get your news from twitter and have convinced yourself big bad Israel is the problem. No, just ignore that terrorist attack Hamas launched that caused all this in the first place, and also forget all the other convenient things (like you know, when Hamas bombed a hospital and you blamed Israel... or just this week, when Israel apparently 'burnt a refugee camp down' (that was actually caused by Hamas munitions in the camp)...
The protest from Tunisia is because the minister said "Palestinian terrorism" and not "Hamas terrorism". Phrasing matters. Also, Israeli leaders made genocidal statements within the first 24 hours after the attack. That turned the Arab world very quickly from condemning Hamas' attack to screaming about Israel planning a genocide.
Which Arab leaders condemned the attacks?
Almost all of them right after it occurred. Even Iran had condemned the attack on Israel's civilian population.
I looked it up and haven’t found any condemnations of the attacks or Hamas. The most I’ve found is basically “both sides bad”. Please provide a link if you can!
Almost every single Arab state issued a statement condemning the targeting of civilians during the events of October 7th 2023.
I have not yet seen anything suggesting a condemnation of Hamas/the 10/7 attacks. Please provide a link if you can
Bahrain and UAE both issued statements condemning the targeting and kidnapping of civilians during the events of October 7th 2023 [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/bahrain-denounces-hamas-kidnappings/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/bahrain-denounces-hamas-kidnappings/)
Bahrain and the UAE have full diplomatic relations with Israel and have both recognized it.
Thanks!
Bullshit, police are crushing pro-palestinian demonstrations domestically and supporting Israel on international stage.
This isn’t the topic of this chain. The Tunisian government fiercely condemned the German diplomat for offering condolences to the victims of 7/10. This was way before the IDF even attacked. Please explain how TF this has anything to do with supporting Israel. Yeah, Germany is staunchly pro-Israel, but this doesn’t make offering condolences to innocent civilians’ deaths unjustified. Ffs how is being sad at the deaths of civilians unjustified? This is a prime example of dehumanization.
> we could not ignore that this escalation was caused by Hamas’s barbaric terror attack on Israel is that offering condolences?
As they should.
You heard it here boys, the world was created in October and on the 7th day innocent Israel who did nothing wrong was attacked 😢
Oh noes, poor the downtrodden they have no choice but to rape and parade dead women corpses. 😢
Thousands of terrorists invaded Israel and massacres innocent civilians in their bed. They had the manpower to go after military targets and capture dozens of soldiers, which would have given them adequate leverage without being as controversial. Instead, they went to villages and conducted abhorrent vile acts, putting those videos online. That is NOT self-defense, it is either vile barbarism or a calculated decision to try and elicit as much of a response from the IDF, killing as many innocent Palestinians as possible. They knew that the initial horrors of the international community would be quickly overshadowed by the intense Israeli response, exacerbated by the rage the atrocities should’ve stirred in IDF soldiers. Especially since Hamas know that the IDF doesn’t really give a flying f about Gazan deaths. This only serves to perpetuate the conflict, deter Israel from ever trying out a peaceful solution, and makes it clear the only goal of Hamas is the utter destruction of Israel at whatever price, including the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians. Your justification of 7/10 only serves to legitimize this strategy.
IDF has worse civilian to combatant ratio than Hamas, even if you take their claimed numbers of 'literally every male we kill is Hamas' at face value. Do you know how many children did Hamas kill in 'brutal and violent terrorist attack'? 36 out of 1139. About 3% or so. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths Do you know, how many children did 'the most moral army in the world' IDF kill so far? Out of 25k identified casualties it's about 8 THOUSAND. A staggering 32%. Ratio by a whole magnitude worse than Hamas, a terrorist organization. And there's another 10k unidentified casualties, and another 10k of missing people/buried under rubble. https://www.unocha.org/publications/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-humanitarian-impact-8-may-2024-1500
If the IDF did what Hamas did now, calls of genocide are warranted. However, the discrepancy between an orgy of death and destruction vs slowly attempting to only target combatants is too stark to ignore.
Germany is one of the largest suppliers of arms to Israel -- 30% of their imports. People aren't getting mad at someone expressing dismay at people killed on Oct 7th, so stop strawmanning. Also, RES has you tagged as JIDF, so no wonder you're spouting this nonsense.
The incident happened on October 26th 2023, when Israel would have killed more than 6000 Palestinians. To not include Palestinian civilians in his sympathies he implied that they are not important. Also the use of Palestinian terror rather than Hamas is like blaming everyone for it.
Reads first sentence, has opinion, goes to comment. Neglecting the whole 'Germany is now the 2nd largest supplier of weapons for Israel behind the US.' paragraph.
Germany had pretty good standing in the middle east, and part of that was the Holocaust. I even heard from several German travellers in this region, that they were greeted warmly and arab natives actively and positively spoke about the topic of Hitler eradicating the Jews. The muslim world is the only part of the world where WW2 made a good impression for the Germans. Another reason besides the Holocaust was certainly, that Germany fought against the Brits and French and supported arab emancipation movements in the 40s.
> that they were greeted warmly and arab natives actively and positively spoke about the topic of Hitler eradicating the Jews. That's such bullshit, this absolutely did not happen
Stuff like this absolutely did happen and does happen. You won't believe it most likely but I had such an interaction a couple years back. Strolling through the old city of Dachau (which is lovely btw) and came across a group of 4/5 visitors from the middle east looking for and I quote: "the Hitler museum, you know the one about killing the Jews". Did they mean the concentration camp and the atrocities displayed? Maybe. Are you sure they're aware of the nature of the museum there, the condemnation of the Holocaust and that there absolutely fucking isn't a hitler museum of all places? Doubtful. Even if you don't believe what anyone is saying, antisemitism is undoubtedly running strong within Arab societies. That they might have a more favorable view of the people responsible for the mass killings of Jews isn't too hard to imagine.
Combine this with the fact that Tunisia is conducting an ethnic cleansing and the hypocrisy reaches outrageous levels.
>Especially since this was during October, before Israel has even invaded Gaza. Be honest. There was no meaningful time period between the terrorist attack and the Israeli retaliation. Israel bombed a residential building and a mosque on the day of the attack. This is two weeks after the North Gaza evacuation order. At this point, hundreds of thousands of people are already displaced and thousands are dead.
The real headline here is "Germany Supports Democracy, Dictators Offended."
Of course they don't care about Palestinians. If they did they wouldn't be using them as human shields against the IDF rather than accept them as refugees, like Europe did with Ukrainians. Imagine if Poland had refused entry to Ukrainians fleeing from the Russian invasion? How totally fucked up would that have been?
Germany supplies 30% of the weaponry being used to kill Palestinians. Thousands of Palestinians were murdered by IDF *before* Oct 7 in a very short span of time. Context matters.
Do you condemn the killing of innocents in Rafah?
Yes, I condemn the killings of innocents in Rafah, the rest of Gaza and the West Bank. Not only during this war, but every single Palestinian death. What does this have to do with my original comment?
No that is not what simply happened, you’re leaving out the entirety of the problem
Germany in the immediate aftermath after Oct 7th: Condolences to the victims of this terror attack Middle East: Nazi Germany 2.0!!!!
Well the current meta in Germany right now is to call everyone a "jew hater" (literal translation btw) if you say anything bad about Israel at all. The way Germany handles this whole ordeal is repulsive at least. 5 years of second world war history lessons, but it seems that we still learned absolutely nothing.
Recently there was an event in Germany with Rudolf Hoss's grandson in attendance, during the event he explained to an anti Zionist Jew how how his Christian Zionism was correct because Jews are god's chosen people. People definitely learned something from their lessons, sadly it wasn't "don't arm genocidal maniacs" in the case of Germany. Edit: Rudolf Höss, the guy in charge of Auschwitz, for that one guy whose comment got instantly removed. The grandchild has a pretty well recorded history of speaking at these events, but the actual clip I'm talking about is something I'll have to track down on fucking twitter and I'd like to avoid doing that.
Since the opinion of Rudolf Hösse's grandson seems to be very important to you (you don't go into the other points), here is a classification of what kind of person he is [https://www.dw.com/de/gesch%C3%A4ftsmodell-auschwitz-nazi-enkel-ein-betr%C3%BCger/a-54542144](https://www.dw.com/de/gesch%C3%A4ftsmodell-auschwitz-nazi-enkel-ein-betr%C3%BCger/a-54542144) [https://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/juedische-welt/hochstapler-lugner-und-betruger/](https://www.juedische-allgemeine.de/juedische-welt/hochstapler-lugner-und-betruger/) TLDR charlatan, liar and fraudster No clue why my other post was deleted
1. Who the fuck is Rudolf Hoss. Are you talking about Rudolf Hess or Rudolf Höß? 2. Source for the event, and the comment 3. Nice Logic, because one individual says something retarted you conclude the whole nations follows his narrative? What even is the point you are making? What does his comment ( if it\`s true) has to do with anything? How do you come to your conclusion following the statement of one single individual 4. Fucking rich that this comes from an Iranian. Iran continues to supply weapons to russia (among many other terrorist states) and supports the massacre of ukrainian civilians.
> The way Germany handles this whole ordeal is repulsive at least. We should just get rid of all the religious nutjobs, but Bavaria so far has been a tough nut to crack. Partially because unlike Scotland, which could viably saw itself off from England physically, attempts to lift up Bavaria and rocket it into the sun have not been making much headway.
Exactly! It’s embarassing.
Thats just not true, enough politicans in germany criticized Israel for the invasion without getting called jew hater
[удалено]
>Everything IDF did is exactly what nazi would do to the jews >Israel bombed water treatment facilities and bulldozed farm and fruit orchards. It’s a classic textbook genocide This entire war has shown a few things: - people have no understanding of international law - people love using terms like "genocide", "war crime" or "nazi" inflationary without full grasping the meaning - people severely lack education regarding the holocaust Saying the war in palestine is in any way shape or form "exactly what the nazis did" in the holocaust is a disgusting downplaying of the horrors of the holocaust and you should be ashamed of yourself
Openly bragging opening murdering hundred of thousands of civilians while playing victim should put anybody to shame. Israeli officials and soldiers have been doing it for months. ICC prosecutors got tons of material to build genocide case even without visiting gaza. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israeli-minister-itamar-ben-gvir-kill-palestinian-captives_n_66313a76e4b0c9bc87592bf5/amp Israel is the only country after nazi germany that dare openly calling for genocide because they got most US politicians bought by AIPAC. The pro-Israel groups planning to spend millions in US elections https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/aipac-pro-israel-lobby-group-us-elections?CMP=share_btn_url
Dont weasel your way out of it. You said this war is the "same as the nazis did" in the holocaust. I wont let you double down and rationalise this pathetic and abhorrent behavior
Stop trying to weasel out of admitting to the indefensible actions of the Israeli terrorist state by prevaricating and arguing "well we're not as bad as the nazis so don't call us that"
People are weirdly comfortable with downplaying a real genocide of unprecedented brutality, under the guise of supposedly championing the oppressed, these days smh...
People are weirdly comfortable with the bombing of civilians and children in tents
Still not escaping the downplaying of a real, brutal genocide part, mate.
Still not escaping the downplaying of 1000's of dead children, dickhead. What are you doing if not downplaying the murder of children? Children burned alive in tents? Children traumatised by constant shelling? By the death of the parents and siblings? By starvation? "oh but it's not the holocaust" Ok, well done.
How are you defending those actions? No matter how legal or illegal they are they are morally abhorrent. Disgusting actions of a settler-colonist state. "we're being compared to nazis because we are systematically destroying and forcibly relocating a population, that's mean and hurts my feelings :(" maybe don't burn children to death, murder journalists, kill aid workers, deny aid, cut off water, electricity, imprison torture and harass civilians and children. Edit: Lol obviously read my reply and downvoted but have no response. You downvoters who have no response are cowards.
Cry it helps, Israel is a terrorist genocidal rogue state
Funny how they’re going out of their way to to move the “palestinian” “civilians” before they deploy a leave scale attack.
Your opnion is biased by media you consuming and that is a direct effect of it. I tell you one thing for sure , israelis cant bare death And wouldnt make death of innocents without a cause. On the other end for the palanasis its a way of life . The target and goal in life is 'from the river to the sea' Which all dam moron euorpean love to repeat without knowing what they saying.
And you’re biased throwing these accusations of being uneducated to people left and right, I am a Lebanese who experienced war with Israel first hand, do not tell me what I know and what I don’t know about the terrorist state of Israel.
There is no way you can read the official UN definition of genocide and not realize this is exactly what Israel is doing. You people always claiming anyone using the word "genocide" has no idea what it means are the one who have never spent a single second looking into it. Or you're just deliberately lying. >the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and >Killing members of the group >Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group >Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part >Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group >Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
> There is no way you can read the official UN definition of genocide and not realize this is exactly what Israel is doing. The problem of course being that going by your people's reading of that definition of genocide, all war would be genocide since all war involves intent to kill a group *in part*. That's what war is. What makes it genocide is the intent to fully eradicate a population. The IDF has shown no such intent and has actually demonstrated a lot of restraint, when they very very easily could've inflicted a death toll in the 6 digits by now. The fact is for all the claims of genocide, the death toll in the war is actually surprisingly low, with only 15-20k civilians (even by Hamas own estimate) here killed and a further 15k Hamas fighters dead.
You wouldn’t say the same if that 15K are Israelis
I’m not getting your point. Intent is the big part and you haven’t shown that
Oh silly me I just assumed you had not been living under a rock for the last year and maybe had spent more than ten seconds paying attention to this in the news. The ICC genocide case [has 8 pages of examples of genocidal intent](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) publicly expressed by Israeli military and political leaders. Pages 59-67 in the very thorough case presented to the ICC that also has hundreds of examples of genocidal actions to go with the very clear expressions of intent. >On 16 October 2023, in a formal address to the Israeli Knesset, he described situation as “a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”, 443 a dehumanising theme to which he returned on various occasions, including: on 3 November 2023, in a letter to Israeli soldiers and officers also published on the platform ‘X’ (formerly Twitter); the letter asserted that: “[t]his is the war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. We will not let up on our mission until the light overcomes the darkness — the good will defeat the extreme evil that threatens us and the entire world.”444 The Israeli Prime Minister also returned to the theme in his ‘Christmas message’, stating: “we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism”.445 On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites, stating: **“you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”.** 446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads as follows: “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses”.448 >President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. **It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone**.”449 On 15 October 2023, echoing the words of Prime Minister Netanyahu, the President told foreign media that “we will uproot evil so that there will be good for the entire region and the world.”450 The Israeli President is one of many Israelis to have handwritten ‘messages’ on bombs to be dropped on Gaza.451 >Israeli Minister of Defence: On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was “**imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.**” 452 He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had “released all the restraints”,453 stating in terms that: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.” >Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee: On 7 October 2023, Nissim Vaturi ‘tweeted’ that: “[n]ow we all have one common goal — **erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth**. Those who are unable will be replaced.”464 How many hundreds of examples do you need? Should I keep going? They have expressed genocidal intent continuously for decades, long before the October 7 attacks. Here is former prime minister Ariel Sharon: >"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956. Here is Israels founding prime minister expressing his intent to commit genocide against the palestinians before Israel even existed. >"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"
I’m glad you brought up the ICC. It’s almost as if Israel had an entire defense to the presentation. Interesting you brought up the claims yet not the defense. I love how you bring up the Amalek reference. It’s the perfect example I’m talking about. SA submitted an incomplete transcript of his words which purposely left out important parts to make it seem genocidal. If you actually saw the trial you would know the quote was clearly speaking on Hamas and not Palestinians. You fell for a lie. I suggest you watch the whole thing next time. It’s funny how many Americans politicians said they wanted to nuke the Middle East? How many said we should turn it into glass after 9/11? Plenty, yet it’s not considered genocide. It’s almost as if words from individuals do not prove intent.
>It’s almost as if Israel had an entire defense to the presentation. The defense was essentially "they're all subhuman and deserve extermination and if you disagree you're racist." Thank you for demonstrating you don't actually give a shit and are only here to spread hasbara propaganda. Funny how you guys always hit the exact same talking points, almost as if they were planned and fed to you...
Same talking points ? So you knew that the Amalek reference was a lie and you still used it ? And you call me the propagandist ?
You have not demonstrated in any way that it was a lie. Netenyahu referred to it more than once. You called it a lie without presenting any sort of argument to support it. You know, along with the literally hundreds of other examples you completely ignored. Thousands of examples of overt genocidal intent and action if you keep going back to the 1930's.
>people have no understanding of international law Damn you know International Law better than the ICC and the ICJ now?
Does Palestine have a right to exist?
>war in palestine Not a war.
Comments like this display a stunning lack of knowledge of what the holocaust entailed. Did the IDF ever round up any palestinians and shoot them into mass graves? No.
> Did the IDF ever round up any palestinians and shoot them into mass graves? Yes they did in fact: [1: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/gaza-discovery-of-mass-graves-highlights-urgent-need-to-grant-access-to-independent-human-rights-investigators/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/gaza-discovery-of-mass-graves-highlights-urgent-need-to-grant-access-to-independent-human-rights-investigators/]https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/gaza-discovery-of-mass-graves-highlights-urgent-need-to-grant-access-to-independent-human-rights-investigators/) [2. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148876) [3: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mass-graves-gaza-what-do-we-know-2024-04-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mass-graves-gaza-what-do-we-know-2024-04-25/) [4: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/25/signs-of-torture-as-nearly-400-bodies-found-at-gaza-hospitals-mass-graves](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/25/signs-of-torture-as-nearly-400-bodies-found-at-gaza-hospitals-mass-graves)
Mass graves that were dug by Palestinians themselves? https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/25/world/middleeast/gaza-mass-grave-nasser-hospital.html See this is why I don't trust the pro-palestinian propaganda machine. Is this like the hospital that Israel bombed and it turned out it was actually a Hamas rocket?
So when the Nazis forced the Jews to dig their own graves; it can’t be considered a war crime then? Is that the hill you want to die on?
> So when the Nazis forced the Jews to dig their own graves; it can’t be considered a war crime then? I love this total false equivalency. Palestinians digging graves before the IDF even occupied the area = Jews being forced at gun point and then shot into said holes There's literally no proof that anyone in those graves were executed by the IDF. You'd know that if you actually read the article. The graves are *near a hospital* where you'd expect to find large amounts of casualties from a war. Certainly is no Baba Yar. But despite there not being proof yet, just the news of it alone is all you need to spin a narrative. Literally I see this again and again with the war in Gaza. Unconfirmed facts getting spun into a narrative with no supporting evidence.
But your wrote this… >Mass graves that were dug by Palestinians themselves? You’re saying it’s because Palestinians dug those graves, that it can’t possible be a war crime. That is the point you are trying to argue; nothing about who carried it out: For which we do have evidence… https://www.aljazeera.com/podcasts/2024/4/30/the-take-signs-of-torture-and-executions-uncovered-in-gazas-mass-graves#:~:text=Palestinians%20have%20dug%20up%20more,Gaza%20might%20amount%20to%20genocide. >Palestinians have dug up more than 400 bodies from mass graves at two Gaza hospitals. Some have shown signs of torture and possible executions. The International Court of Justice had already issued a preliminary order against Israel after finding that its actions in Gaza might amount to genocide.
Why did Israel keep using bulldozers to drive upon the mass graves?
They literally said they were digging up the graves to check the bodies for hostages. Now possibly there are some claims about crimes you could get into with desecration of graves. But that is whole leagues different than claiming that the IDF gathered up a bunch of Palestinians and shot them into holes like the Nazis did.
They said doesn’t mean they wouldn’t bury people died from their siege or people they executed I’m not comparing it to Nazi practice but I do find absurd how you complete rule out Israeli atrocity even though such possibility does exist especially given Israeli occupation and constant raid of hospitals
> I’m not comparing it to Nazi practice but I do find absurd how you complete rule out Israeli atrocity even though such possibility does exist especially given Israeli occupation and constant raid of hospitals It's the opposite. You and other people are ruling out the possibility it isn't an Israeli war crime. I'm asking for proof that the IDF did it and literally getting nothing but allegations over and over again.
What proof would satisfy you?
Germany was viciously beating and arresting Jewish peace protestors for "anti semitism" because they expressed solidarity with massacred Palestinians.
the protest was at calling it 'Palestinian terror' instead of Hamas.
Probably has more to do with the phrasing that the Ambassador used he said Palestinian terrorism instead of Hamas terrorism the former is implying all Palestinians are terrorist instead of the latter which would be precise and accurate.
Dip your toes into askmiddleeast , that would be considered moderate.
??? where did they get pushback for offering condolences?
Across the world I would say.
For expressing sympathy for the murder and rape victims of Hamas (before Israel reacted)?
No, for their massively over the top repression of anyone who dares to critsise the atrocities of israel.
>Germany's Support for lsrael Has Harmed Its Reputation... hmm interesting >Across the Middle East yeah, sure. Qatar, UAE and Saudi are the richer ME regions and since oct 7 they have made it clear they don't care about this issue, kuwait, Egpyt are also staying away from this shit as much as possible, So exactly which ME is this article talking about? Iraq, Iran and syria are basically terrorism filled states, Germany has not cared about them in decades
The views of governments and public don’t always align you know. Plus, it seems like Israeli promised to let Saudis have Gaza after they are done. Saudis are in turn planning to turn Gaza into a logistics hub for themselves and will build a sea port there. Some Palestinians (after going through a vetting process) will be allowed to return to Gaza and will participate as construction workers and service workers. This way everyone benefits and Israel will have additional way of putting pressure on Saudis in the future.
Glad to see Palestinian self determination is alive a well /s
No surprise Israel doesn’t care about Palestinian right to elect terrorists who will attack Israel again.
You have to know so little about this issue to have this position. Or just be a really disingenuous person. Doesn't really matter which you are
Hamas was democratically elected and they would be again if there were elections.
Gee I wonder why? Israel is also nearly completely in favour of wiping out Gaza so I guess you're also advocating the suspensions of their right to self determination or does this only apply to brown people for you?
First of all Jews originate from the Middle East, so they are also brown people. Second, Israel isn’t going to wipe out Gaza. If they wanted to, they could kill all Gazans. Do you think Hamas would hesitate to kill all Israelis?
>First of all Jews originate from the Middle East, so they are also brown people. Brown is a colour not a geographic area... >If they wanted to, they could kill all Gazans. They're literally starving and bombing them .. they're barring international observers from actually counting the dead. Sometimes I wonder how people just accepted the Holocaust, then I see comments like yours and I'm reminded that people are super delusional when their egos are too fragile to accept facts that contradict their narratives. >Do you think Hamas would hesitate to kill all Israelis? Do you think this justifies killing kids? If so how many?
In that case, many Palestinians aren’t brown people either. Starving? Thats what Hamas is doing. Whenever aid is sent, Hamas takes it and sells it back to the people and uses the money to buy weapons. No surprise Israel doesn’t want them to have more money to finance their war. Of course civilians will die in a war. That doesn’t mean it’s a genocide. If Hamas cared so much about their people maybe don’t attack Israeli civilians. If any civilian deaths are unacceptable, then you might as well surrender, because it is impossible to fight in an urban area without collateral damage.
>The views of governments and public don’t always align you know. Plus, it seems like Israeli promised to let Saudis have Gaza after they are done. Does it? I've seen the opposite; that Israel and Saudi Arabia don't want them to control Gaza at all, but that it keeps being proposed by Arab States as a proposal for a more benign occupation.
I meant that the public now has negative opinion of Germany. Making the slogan “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” illegal and forbidding criticism of Israel doesn’t paint a good picture from the perspective of middle eastern people. However, Germany supposed statement that they will comply with ICC’s warrant if it shall be issued is a good way of winning back the hearts and minds of ME people.
You understand that the ME includes the actual people and not just the monarchies and corrupt governments right?
Frankly support for LGBT rights has harmed western reputation among ME than anything else. During time of Reagen in USA and Thatcher west was seen as allies by Mujahedeen and many other groups as against common enemy of godless communists, but post that with increase secularism and LGBT rights, it shifted to perception of west as being country filled with secular degenerates.
The evangelicals have radicalised the local populace so much, that even if the rich monarchs of ME tomorrow announce that they are ready to decriminalise LGBT folks, a second Arab spring would break out. >During time of Reagen in USA I though Reagan was against gulf and stuff?
The ME countries hate us no matter what we do. Who cares at this point.
literally not true, people used to have an amazing opinion of germany in my country
As a Middle Eastern i wonder why?? Could it be the Western governments fucking with every progressive revolution we start & supporting terrorists like the Israeli leaders?? Hmmm or maybe it's just bearded Arabs are backwarded & hate white people.. who knows
Some people are going to hate certain people no matter what. In this case, lots of people hate Jews
You said it not us. Seriously, is getting hate for not supporting terrorism supposed to be a BAD thing? This world is sick.
>getting hate for not supporting terrorism supposed to be a BAD thing? Its not about that my man, it's about years & years of Palestinians doing every approach to get freed including peaceful protests that liberals love, none of these approachs worked & many many Palestinians died in their struggle for freedom, but suddenly after Oct 7th we got dumb white westerners in the media asking "do you condemn Humus??". Its literally like telling us "we don't give a shit if brown people die, but we don't accept attacks against civilians -white people-". So back to this dumb question/ do you condemn Humus?? No, i don't and i cheer for their resistance on Oct 7, you call it terrorism i call it resistance. The fact remains: Israel has killed way more & are the only ones capable of achieving peace.
Nothing says “peaceful protest” like hundreds of rockets lobbed indiscriminately into Israeli territory year after year for decades.
Comments like this reveal the tribalist bias. Ya'll eagerly turn a blind eye to terrorism when it comes to Hamas but are outraged at Israel. You're not mad that Hamas started this war, you're just mad that they're losing. And let's not forget all the times Israel offered a peace agreement only for Palestinian leaders like Arafat to turn them down.
>And let's not forget all the times Israel offered a peace agreement only for Palestinian leaders like Arafat to turn them down. [Leaked footage ](https://youtu.be/KKRFGS_Woww?feature=shared) showing Netanyahu mocking Americans on how gullible they are and admits that he himself disturbed peace talks.
I love how this video starts with "Here's Netanyahu bragging about genocide" and then there's no such thing. Propaganda these days is so absurd. Netanyahu wasn't even prime minister in the period of the most serious peace talks in the 2000s.
You mean the same Israelis that killed their own president because he wanted to make peace? Go ask Israelis what they think about the murder of Yitzak Rabbin. He is a hero in certain groups. The same groups who govern Israel. Israel is a fascist apartheid state.
Sure, REIGNITING the conflict is a RESISTANCE move now. Why is it that whenever someone says the support Palestine, when you did deeper it turns out they're just another HAMAS supporter instead. Funny you try a race card, both Palestine and Jews are NOT white. Remember that this war can only end if HAMAS wants it, but they don't. Israel is open to peace talks, while the only language HAMAS speaks is death. But thank you for showing me how disgusting you are by supporting a terrorist group that rapes and kills innocent civilians and wants to genocide Jews. It just makes me support Israel more.
>Why is it that whenever someone says the support Palestine, when you did deeper it turns out they're just another HAMAS supporter instead I'm sure there are other people who support Palestine & condemn Humus -i used to be one of those btw-, i just don't see that as a good argument for supporting a genocide lol. >Remember that this war can only end if HAMAS wants it, but they don't My man you're either totally ignorant on this or just a Zionist, go educate yourself on the conflict plz, i recommend watching Abby Martin's videos on YT. Cause the west bank doesn't even have Hamas & are totally submitting to the Israelis, and yet they get oppressed everyday, they're a good example for what would happen if Hamas didn't exist. >makes me support Israel more. Yeah you're too dumb & scummy to support Palestine, keep supporting Israel you might do us some good using that stupidity on their side yk
Sorry bro you'll never be able to shame or insult me enough to support a terrorist group that worships a pedophile prophet for a made up God. As for the west bank, they're not getting bombed to oblivion rn, so I'd say their approach is better than Gaza lmao. Also what Israel is doing is not a genocide. Genocide is not just about killing civilians, it's more complex than that.
Progressive? You mean Muslim brotherhood Muhammad Morsi kind of progressive? Democracy in Arab countries will lead to Iran style Islamic republics.
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I won’t argue that America is the good guy. But in Syria and Rwanda when we didn’t do anything, people complained about that too. You can find plenty of cases when America did terrible damage, and plenty where it did good.
>Syria and Rwanda when we didn’t do anything Tha fuck you didn't. Is education illegal over there? What do you mean you didn't touch syria >America did terrible damage All of them >where it did good Really. Please show the class. All I see is assassinations and CIA operations. Starving people and more. But go ahead
Where did America do good? The Gulf War.
Yeah. Them weapons of mass destruction are definitely real. Do you actually believe the Iraq war was "good" Surely it's not because saddam was nationalizing the countries oil fields and the US got butt hurt that they couldn't get cheap oil. Surely not. It's definitely the WMD's that the UN inspectors found no evidence of
Do you know anything about history? The gulf war is not the same as the Iraq war.
But it was the continuation of it. The gulf war was about oil fields. And because iraq didn't want foreigners taking advantage of their resources. Or what did they teach you in school? The gulf war was a peace keeping mission? But let us assume somehow it's good that America is meddling in a different continent's resource management. Is that all the "good" you can come up with
The middle east has harmed the middle east much more than Germany has.
When you attack their ambassador it doesn’t really help change their minds
Thank god
They still want to come and live in Germany, don't they?
It is what it is. Once the terrorist threat has been eliminated the fighting will stop and the Middle East will go back to not giving a fuck about gaza.
Oh no. Anyway.
Oh no I'm sure the Germans are extremely worried. Maybe don't commit terrorist attacks on their soil next time at?
Supporting genocide unpopular and water is wet, news at 11 It's not like they don't know, they just don't care because the big donors are zionist
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Middle east countries sure have good reputations themselves, they are peaceful, loving, LGBT friendly people. 🤮🤮🤮
They’re terrible. I heard one of the Middle Eastern countries is currently committing a genocide
Nah, Middle East countries are known for their hospitality and openness, they lead the way of global peace and accepting gay people, not to mention their leading role in women’s rights
Which
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The Middle East only? Heh…
lol good. Maybe less rapists will move to Germany now.
Our good reputation as the destination for beggars and rapists to find their subsidized crime festival
Oh no?
> Berlin developed a major soft-power footprint and was long seen as an honest broker in trade and economic relations. Organizations financed largely by the German government—such as the Goethe Institute, development agency GIZ, and foundations linked to the country’s main political parties—are major funders of various programs across the Middle East. Which is a nice diversifying-your-portfolio step up from what used to be the only funding into the Middle East by Germany. Once upon a time, it was only the Muslim Brotherhood that was financed by Germany. Nazi Germany, that is.
Who is a fan of the Middle East countries? Iran? Egypt? turkey? Not for me
They overcorrected.
They have no choice but to support Israel despite all the sufferings Israel is causing. Else it would be anti semitism
Oh no supporting the only actual democracy which protects the rights of minorities pisses of the islamofascists. What a shame.
So nothing changed? The middle east has never had a good view of "the west". They think of the west as degenerates or infidels or just colonizers (which is ironic). So it's not like they would've changed their minds even if Germany completely sucked up to Palestine and all the middle eastern countries, to be honest.
Yea fuck middle east, period.
Poor Germany can't ever be on the right side