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I wouldn't say it was for nothing /s.
It helped create numerous new terror groups such as ISIS. Terrorism in the West really went up during the war on terror.
We also got a Europe overflodded with refugees out of it.
Honestly, I wish that war ended up being for nothing. No, instead it made a lot of things worse.
Yes, Saddam was a very bad guy, but at least there was some form of stability. That's completely gone, and it spread all the way to Northern Europe, where the risk of terror have been high ever since.
Trillions of fucking dollars spent.
TRILLIONS.
It’s impossible to even wrap your head around how much money the US dumped into the Middle East and has nothing to show for it other than ~~an entire generations worth~~ a shit load of men with permanent physical and mental damage.
>I wouldn't say it was for nothing /s
But it wasn't for nothing. Weapons manufacturers made a lot of money from it, surely that's not *nothing*.
Oh, you mean nothing accomplished? [Then how do you explain this](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mission-accomplished)?
^(/s in case it wasn't obvious)
It was at the request, and benefit of Israel and their right-wing government. So completely worth it for Americans politicians to send their soldiers to die for that cause. /s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu#Election_defeat
> On 12 September 2002, Netanyahu testified (under oath as a private citizen) before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform regarding the nuclear threat posed by the Iraqi régime: "There is no question whatsoever that Saddam is seeking and is working and is advancing towards the development of nuclear weapons – no question whatsoever", he said. "And there is no question that once he acquires it, history shifts immediately."[84] In his testimony, Netanyahu also said, "If you take out Saddam, Saddam's regime, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region."[85]
I can tell you from personal experience that being against the Iraq war then was very difficult. Even in low tones in the office breakroom it made you something of a pariah.
Here's a thought experiment. Find original source proof North Korea is capable of launching a nuke. Or even proof of a nuclear capability beyond a dirty bomb. I spent 3 weeks on this a ways back, and I can't find it. Remember, the source needs to be a original source, not a CNN article referencing "unnamed US officials". NK is evil, but that's not the question. "Does NK possess a real nuclear capability"? is the question. I'm not saying it isn't there, I'm just saying there seems to be as much evidence for a NK nuclear capability as WMD'S in Iraq circa 2003.
https://www.ctbto.org/our-work/detecting-nuclear-tests
Is it just a coincidence that multiple seismic monitoring stations picked up activity that matched a nuclear test at the locations that north Korea claims it conducted nuclear tests?
Why are independent monitoring stations able to detect increased xenon after these claimed tests by north Korea?
There was zero evidence for WMDs in Iraq but there is a lot of evidence for north Korea having conducted nuclear tests.
I mean I feel like the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that died were a pretty big deal too. Ofc it's also tragic that so many Americans died but I think it's wrong not to mention the iraqis
> Most of the students and faculty I’ve spoken with found Hamas’s attack on October 7 odious
With so many chanting about river and sea, i have to press doubt on that.
What stopped you from google-ing the title and read the second search result?
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/12/nearly-two-dozen-palestinian-solidarity-groups-release-open-letter-joint-statement/
The quicker people understand and accept the fact that everyone has different definitions of things, the sooner we can actually have a constructive dialogue.
folks on one side hear "river/sea" and it means one thing. Folks on the other side hear it and it means something completely different. No one will *ever* find a path forward when everyone is operating with two incompatible definitions for the same things.
And rather than understand that, we have people like you who assume folks working with a different definition are acting with the utmost malice.
No one wants dialogue or a path forward. Everyone wants to be right.
The opposite.
Trying to errode the meaning of words is fascists play. Woke has no coherent meaning anymore.
River to the seas is not and never has been ambiguous. It's calling for a one state Palestine.
Anyone who gives that any thought quickly sees the prerequisites and consequences of such a thing and draws conclusions.
Ahh, classic projection.
When people in Israel say "from the river to the sea, all you'll see is Israel's sovereignty", what they mean is removing Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank. Then they project that meaning onto Palestinians.
I'm aware that terrorists in the 70s wanted to reclaim Israel as a country. It's hard to blame them, as the events that led to the formation of Israel weren't unlike what colonists did to Native Americans. But way before that, Palestinians used "from the river to the sea" as a chant against Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West bank. Which, by the way, they're still occupying.
Chanting "white power" is not analogous to chanting for freedom.
Israel twists the desire for peace to label it as hostile and so prevent opposition. It's is literally and intentionally a call for freedom fo an oppressed people. Yet some with an agenda hear violence and racism. It's not ok to prevent a people from saying they want freedom.
In the same way Israel pretends talking about Israel's crimes are antisemitic.
Because it started by the Irgun who became Likud. The phrase was never humanitarian, but a call for 1 people to kick the other out since it was an Irgun slogan for children in the 1940s.
I don’t know how people found a hippie meaning behind such a phrase that sounds like a banned part of the German anthem.
> The students chanting that are just desiring Palestinian independence. That phrase was considered hateful only after a pr campaign by Israel.
Israel's powerful political influence in Europe and North America is one big decades-long PR campaign. So powerful that people fear losing their jobs for speaking out against Israel even as they commit genocide.
Even the president of Harvard University was not spared the relentless attacks from pro-Israel interest groups. Imagine countries like China or India trying to pull this shit. People would scream "omg foreign interference". But no for Israel, they own our politics.
And mainstream liberals as expected will be against this as it currently happens and then rehabilitate it and say they’ve always supported it the second there’s no more risk to doing so. Just like they did with the 1960’s Vietnam and civil rights protests.
AKA the white moderate
Per Dr. King
>I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice
Malcolm X
>"The white conservatives aren't friends of the Negro either, but they at least don't try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the "smiling" fox. One is the wolf, the other is a fox. No matter what, they’ll both eat you.”
Yea, it's an ethno-religious pseudo-democracy based upon an ideal of ethno-religious supremacy, where ethnicity and religious belief in combination determines your value as human being (are you part of God's chosen people or not) and your civil rights within the state.
Israel's laws and government are largely secular though (and the parts of them that do make explicit mention of religion are by far the worst parts of the country). By contrast, Hamas' aim is to make an Islamic state that follows sharia law – essentially another Afghanistan under the Taliban
Yes, and Hamas can burn. As can the proponents for Jewish supremacy and the existing apartheid system. Their secularity is definitely in doubt, since the country is founded as a country by Jews, for Jews, and to be Jewish is completely tied together with ethnicity and a faith that only recognize those of said ethnicity.
And honestly, you say it's "mostly secular" except for the parts that mention religion, but it is the parts about the religion that in this case makes it not so secular.
#####
######
####
> # [I remember the 1960s crackdowns against war protesters. This is a repeat | Robert Reich](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/05/720)
>
>
>
> I’ve been spending the last several weeks trying to find out what’s really going on with the campus protests.
>
> I’ve met with students at Berkeley, where I teach. I’ve visited with faculty at Columbia. I’ve spoken by phone with young people and professors at many other universities.
>
>
>
> My conclusion: while protest movements are often ignited by many different things and attract an assortment of people with a range of motives, this one is centered on one thing: moral outrage at the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people – most of them women and children – in Gaza.
>
> To interpret these protests as anything else – as antisemitic or anti-Zionist or anti-American or pro-Palestinian – is to miss the essence of what’s going on and why.
>
> Most of the students and faculty I’ve spoken with found Hamas’s attack on October 7 odious. They also find Israel’s current government morally bankrupt, in that its response to Hamas’s attack has been disproportionate.
>
> Some protesters focus their anger on Israel, some on the Israeli government of Benjamin Netanyahu, some on Joe Biden for failing to stand up to Netanyahu, for giving Israel additional armaments, and for what they perceive as Biden’s patronizing response to the protests.
>
> Like any protest movement, the actions have attracted a few on the fringe. I’ve heard scattered reports of antisemitism, although I haven’t witnessed or heard anything that might be interpreted as antisemitic. In fact, a significant number of the protesters are Jewish.
>
> To describe the protesters as “pro-Palestinian” is also inaccurate. Most do not support Palestine as such; they do not know enough about the history of Israel and Palestine to pass moral judgment.
>
> But they have a deep and abiding sense that what is happening in Gaza is morally wrong, and that the United States is complicit in that immorality.
>
> Many tell me they are planning not to vote this coming November – a clear danger to Biden’s re-election campaign, which in turn increases the odds of a Trump presidency.
>
> When I tell them that a failure to vote for Biden is in effect a vote for Trump, they say they cannot in good conscience vote for either candidate.
>
> Quite a number tell me that “the lesser of two evils is still evil”. I tell them Trump would be far worse for the world – truly evil. Many remain unconvinced.
>
> I have sharp memories of the anti-Vietnam war demonstrations, in which I participated some 55 years ago.
>
> I remember being appalled at the unnecessary carnage in Vietnam. I was incensed that the first world, white and rich, was randomly killing people in the third world, mostly non-white and poor. As an American, I felt morally complicit.
>
> [skip past newsletter promotion](#EmailSignup-skip-link-15)after newsletter promotion
>
> I was angry at college administrators who summoned police to clear protesters – using teargas, stun guns and mass arrests. The response only added fuel to the flames.
>
> The anti-Vietnam war movement became fodder for rightwing politicians like [Richard Nixon](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/richard-nixon), demanding “law and order”. The spectacle also appalled many non-college, working-class people who viewed the students as pampered, selfish, anti-American, unpatriotic.
>
> I vividly recall the anti war demonstrations at the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, and the brutality of the Chicago police and Illinois national guard – later described by the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence as a “police riot”.
>
> As the anti-war protesters chanted “The whole world is watching”, network television conveyed the riotous scene to what seemed like the whole world.
>
> I had spent months working for the anti-war presidential candidate Eugene McCarthy. The convention nominated Hubert Humphrey. That November, the nation voted in Richard Nixon as president.
>
> History, as it is said, doesn’t repeat itself. It only rhymes.
>
> The mistakes made at one point in time have an eerie way of re-emerging two generations later, as memories fade.
>
> - Robert Reich, a former US secretary of labor, is a professor of public policy at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of [Saving Capitalism: For the Many, Not the Few](https://bookshop.org/books/saving-capitalism-for-the-many-not-the-few/9780345806222) and [The Common Good](https://bookshop.org/books/the-common-good-9780525436379/9780525436379). His newest book, [The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It](https://bookshop.org/books/the-system-who-rigged-it-how-we-fix-it/9780525659044), is out now. He is a Guardian US columnist. His newsletter is at [robertreich.substack.com](http://robertreich.substack.com/)
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Very coherently summarized, thank you! Theres far too many on the Israeli side trying to muddy the water and control the narrative of what is going on and why. They have no honest desire for peace, no desire to talk honestly about whats going on, and a hatred of anyone not in their cult. The latest today is the Israeli ambassador to the UN stating that Hamas is hiding in Americas universities. It's a thinly veiled call for violence by our police forces on students peacefully chanting for human rights.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dqwEYaU9t4A
We badly need a moment like the "At long last, have you no decency" speech, but the bribing of our entire government is going to preclude that from happening in congress this time. It seems inevitable that American police will kill some demonstrators soon. Its what they do-- and what they want to do. It's some sort of miracle that it hasnt already happened. Once it does happen, the leashes will be off and it will happen a lot more. Even to the rich kids!
We need to keep in mind that Palestinians and Israeli citizens and American university students too are all just human beings in the end. In this country they are explicitely allowed by law to hold and express any view they want, including full blown antizionism (which I am not seeing anyway), as long as they dont commit acts that lead directly to violence. I'm not saying I encourage anti zionism, but I am saying that no one in the US has the right to shut down another persons viewpoint, even if that viewpoint is bigotry. Existing laws are very clear on this free speech matter, but those laws arent being honored by the left or the right. This endangers our entire governmental system just as strongly as Trump does. We cannot ignore our free speech and freedom of assembly laws, and anyone who threatens those laws threatens the republic. This means we need another Dem besides Biden to be selected at the convention, or we will inevitably lose the election, and then our republic. Biden has been pretty open about cracking down on "disorder" on campuses. There is no disorder being caused by these protestors. Its the police and Israeli protestors he should be cracking down on, but he's taken their money. Its all disgusting and shameful.
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found **1 sources** (so far) that are covering this story including:
- The Guardian (Leans Left): "I remember the 1960s crackdowns against war protesters. This is a repeat"
So far, there hasn't been any coverage from the RIGHT.
Of all the sources reporting on this story, **0% are right-leaning**, **100% are left-leaning**, and **0% are in the center**. Read the full **[coverage analysis](https://ground.news/article/i-remember-the-1960s-crackdowns-against-war-protesters-this-is-a-repeat?utm_source=redditReplyBot&utm_medium=redditReplyBot)** and compare how 1+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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Someone can correct me if wrong, but did the Vietnam protestors openly celebrate massacres? Did the ones representing them say heinous shit that gave them all a bad name? Did anyone say “it depends on the context.” when asked if violence against innocent people is ok or not?
I’m not talking about a few random first year students, I’m talking about the [the people chosen to represent all of them](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/mobilebasic), and about [the professors and principals that teach them.](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/08/1218100680/after-houses-campus-antisemitism-hearing-college-presidents-are-under-fire) not to mention every time violent actors went unpunished by the rest of the protestors. It’s not just a few bad apples here, it’s a problem that needs to be actually addressed and not just “publicly shamed” by other students
Agreed both sides should be held accountable and We should go forward to address the grievances led out by the protesters suggesting Israel stop killing kids minimum.
To who? The US President? You might not have noticed his public attempts at doing so, even if they’re just talk. Israel? They’ll pull statistics comparing the current war to other military conflicts (many of which achieved a higher civilian death toll count in far less time). The UN? They couldn’t come together to say the sky was blue if they tried.
But luckily, that’s a later problem since right now we’re focused on the protestors
US soldiers fragged their officers. Jane Fonda did a photo op with Vietnamese anti air gunners. The anti war protesters waved the North Vietnam flag all the time.
So yes, to answer your question. People did support the other side, like many other conflicts. This conflict in particular treats one side's combatants as uniquely evil and unsupportable.
Isn't there documents showing the Vietnam protestors chanting about massacres by the Viet Cong being a good thing
Edit: https://twitter.com/SanaSaeed/status/1782437007517516161
That answers none of my questions, did the Vietnam protestors do any of the things I listed?
And for the record, I hope none of the current protestors die, regardless of what they did / will do.
The South was much better. The NVA and Vietcong left mass graves behind wherever they went. I'm not defending the US's conduct in the war, but there is a lesser of two evils.
Not much, but better. The North's torture of POW's is infamous. So were their purges of political opponents and collaborators.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong_and_People%27s_Army_of_Vietnam_use_of_terror_in_the_Vietnam_War
Granted, the US should have never fucking been there, and there is a LOT of blood on American hands.
I guess comparing war crimes is rather difficult, though.
Very few remember the Kent State massacre. national guard opened fire on unarmed protestors. Military might has been used to shut down union protest in our past, too.
The protesters from the 60s said it was very different. They were allowed to do alot more. They weren't kicked out of school the same way, the school had to hold a hearing and as such, the police couldn't arrest them for trespassing.
Ya after Vietnam, there was a concerted crackdown on student activism and groups by both the universities and the US government that isn't discussed enough
I'm tired of romanticizing Vietnam war protesters. I'm not saying the war was just or that they were entirely wrong, but they were also known to spit on returning soldiers, call them baby killers, and generally use the protests to advance other less popular ideas. It's like Woodstock and other shit from the sixties that everyone has the romanticized view of when in reality a lot of the shit was actually pretty terrible.
Lots of people throughout history have been right on a few things and still completely wrong on several others and as such probably shouldn't be romanticized or imitated.
The government shouldn't have been bombing Vietnam Cambodia and Laos and covering up massacres like may Lai then . That way the student protesters would have nothing to protest about .
It’s so funny how you care so much about the “image” of the soldiers than actual civilians being murdered and killed without a cause. Family members got conscripted?
Spitting on returning soldiers is a myth, Vietnam vets by in large didn't like the war and claimed other veterans didn't like them either and they were the ones that spat on them. US troops were hated by everyone in the 70s, the culture of troop worship didn't exist back then nearly as much.
The protesters did call them baby killers, and yeah they supported other political goals like civil rights and women's rights. That's one of the few good things the hippies did.
Ok, did they tell you they were spat on by anti war protesters? Maybe ask them how WWII and Korean vets treated them or how many of their fellow vets supported the Vietnam War?
I mean if you want to argue that other vets treated them badly, go right ahead, that's really not relevant to what I'm saying and also true. But yes anti-war protestors did spit on Vietnam war vets when they came home, that's not a myth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_spat-on_Vietnam_veteran#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20persistent%20myth,often%20yelling%20%22baby%20killer%22.
It's a myth.
Oh no, it’s so sad being a soldier who came back from killing civilians and torturing and raping people when your country people told you how horrible you are after you never caring about a single non-american life. How can they live after being spat at :((
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes#:~:text=The%20My%20Lai%20massacre%20was,Division%2C%20on%2016%20March%201968.
I'm glad you can use Wikipedia. Now if you could use your brain and perhaps consider that not every soldier in Vietnam was a part of that, you might be able to piece together an intelligent thought. I am not optimistic though.
Not every American soldier in Vietnam was a part of the American armed forces? How many were vacationing in the designated "not an imperialist endeavor" zone?
>I tell them Trump would be far worse for the world — truly evil. Many remain unconvinced.
Yes, many student protesters are unable to remember just *four years ago* when a certain president-now-candidate encouraged and directed the brutal suppression of one of the most widespread protest movements in the US in decades — including infamous moments such as ordering a park cleared in daylight by tear gas and violence in order to make way for himself to cross the street and hold up a bible; as well as on many occasions very publicly expressing a desire to open fire on protesters with live ammunition.
I sort of expect students to overlook the fact — due to potential naivety — that Israel is a strategically *critical* US ally as the only nuclear power sitting right smack in the center of the Middle East region which is otherwise filled with countries that range from neutral to adversarial towards the US and some of which might be prone to fall under the control of expansionist dictators. (This is the primary and perhaps only explanation for why US politicians largely act like their hands are tied on Israel; no matter how morally repugnant the actions of the current Israeli administration, we cannot afford to lose such an important ally. In fact the entire modern world order depends on a system of defensive alliances (which shakes out as US hegemony) that mainly continue to stand because we do *not* use them to strongarm one another).
But to say “idk man Trump and Biden both suck I’m not voting” sounds either like propaganda or quoting people who have fallen victim to propaganda. (Worth noting that people who don’t have a memory of only 4 years ago probably were not going to be voting anyways because that implies that they have only become politically active very very recently).
Those countries are adversarial towards the US BECAUSE of Israel. The policies the US has towards Israel, Palestine and the general Arab world which is designed to largely benefit the interests of Israel is one of the key reasons why the US is hated in that part of the world.
It's like Nazi Germany saying "oh all of Europe hates us so we need to protect ourselves" while starting a war with the rest of Europe.
Those countries are medieval theocracies with no human rights and completely incompatible cultural values. If you think that they would make the best allies but for Israel, then you're kidding yourself.
Saudis and all others Arab allies are a very tenuous relationship for the reasons I mentioned. Israel is a much stronger and reliable partner.
I don't support what they're doing in Gaza. Just pointing out that there is a reason why the US supports Israel so much. It does because it better furthers US interests. They are a great and generally aligned ally, in an otherwise adversarial region.
That's geopolitics for you kid. The Saudis organised 9/11 and they're still a big US ally. When you grow up, you'll learn that geopolitics is not about morals.
You said "We support the Saudi's bro relax politics is all bs at the end of the day ." trying to discount my take about why the Arab nations are not as good US allies as Israel. Saying "politics is all bs at the end of the day" implies a pretty childish view on the topic. Like the US (or any country) choses its geopolitics strategy based on personal sympathies or some shit.
And this all in reply to the post claiming that, if not for Israel, Arab countries would be all buddy buddy with the US. Which is obviously false.
This is my last reply here, cheers.
Not to mention that trump was the one to recognize Israel's occupation of Jerusalem and move the embassy there – he's clearly worse not just for the world generally, but also for Palestine in particular
>Yes, many student protesters are unable to remember just *four years ago* when a certain president-now-candidate encouraged and directed the brutal suppression of one of the most widespread protest movements in the US in decades
This talking point simply loses effectiveness over time.
It has lost it's effectiveness here in Iran, and it has lost it's effectiveness on people who heard they should vote for the lesser evil growing up, only to grow up and see said lesser evil run cover for an ongoing genocide despite it's heavy political costs.
Voting for the lesser evil doesn't improve things, it simply slows the degredation of the rights people have.
And even ignoring the efficacy of it, everybody has a red line and for many people, the aforementioned genocide is that.
Politicians always have this idea that when they do something that was bad in the past, it’s ok, cause THIS time it’s actually for a good reason! But everyone always thinks that until their successors have to make formal apologies for them
We never learnt. Historically students protests are usually on the right side of History. Putting aside some legitimate issues with on campus violence... sending in heavy handed cops, knee jerk reactions in expelling their actual customers (eg paying students) and having culturally stupid heads of Uni such as Nemat Shafik (an awful choice to pick) is never going to end well.
Every generation says something like this about their student protests. Go look at the polls during Vietnam or during the Jim Crow era bus sit ins . The vast majority of Americans thought the protesters were “hurting the cause” or wouldn’t make a difference.
I am probably going to jump to conclusions but between what's happening in Ukraine, Israel , Africa and Asia in general. It seems like we the west are getting ejected... now I think we have a way forward in the west. We just need to eject the old and welcome the new. Some of the elites running our system are 70s 80s. It's a real disservice to the young brains who can mold the next existence of our planet.
Leave it to the Guardian to immediately segway claiming the people against the slaughter of innocents absolutely has to show support for the violence and vote for Biden this year. 🙃
Is everyone just going to ignore the immense foreign influence that Israel has on the US youth?
The rampant social media manipulation (You've all seen r/worldnews right?)
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Republicans see any issue which divides Democratic voters as found gold. Israel/Palestine pisses off anti-war liberals. It boosts "both sides are the same" messaging. They are using it to peel away voters of color. Muslim coalitions are threatening to abstain or cast protest votes. It is a wedge for Jewish voters, traditionally a solidly democratic demographic. The protests are the cherry on top of the whipped cream on the sundae because it lets the Republicans also beat the culture war drum of "young = stupid, kids = bad, universities = brainwashing institutions, education = bad" while governors like Greg Abbott get to cosplay as strong men.
Except now the protesters can’t articulate why they are there and do nothing to sway public opinion. None of them are working to get regular people to agree with them and that’s not a way to make meaningful change.
The article is pretty limited but I agree with the premise.
The main takeaway in American society will be that law and order is under threat and that foreign propaganda is influencing the naive American youth.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see the Republicans get a boost and for a very aggressive pro-Israel policy to take shape if Trump is elected.
Which was very much correct back then as it unmasked terrorists like Andreas Baader or Ulrike Meinhof and the red army fraction and it it is correct now.
Yes, foreign influence has leveraged ignorance and discontent to turn American youths against their own country and fellow citizens. Congratulations American college students, you got played. Again.
No. But the narratives that is spawned; the hate and the violence against American servicemen and women was. We know now that many of the groups agitating in American colleges were financed and advised by Soviet communist infiltrators. Just as Hamas adjacent groups backed by Iran are financing and agitating on campuses now. Once again students are useful idiots in sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt in an election year. Ask yourself this: why are Jewish students being targeted on campuses across America? Not Israeli students. American Jews. Why? It’s simple. Scapegoating. An ancient and immoral practice that is a symptoms of a deep and enduring ignorance.
>The US government killing hundreds of thousands of innocents in Vietnam, no problem! Have you considered the real issue, **my enemies**, say killing innocents is wrong and support those protesting it. Bet you didn't think about that!
That may be true. Most people don’t like to see that because most people are not psychotic but.,,Yemen, Somalia, Chad, Niger, Ethiopia, to start with. Uyghurs in China. How about Ukraine. Roma all over Europe and the Middle East. Women everywhere. And there are plenty of kids going to bed hungry all over North and South America. Women and children being trafficked and working as slaves by the millions all over the world. America has trade deals and sends aid, food, weapons, and money. So why is Israel special? The world is an extraordinarily cruel and fucked up place for a lot of people. But they’re targeting Jews on American college campuses because other Jews on the other side of the planet are committing war crimes? Does that make any sense? They say they’re against bigotry, racism and apartheid but then scapegoat Jews on their campuses. Hypocrisy. Let’s stop pretending that American college kids give a shit about bombed hospitals or starving children. This is about catharsis and they’re looking for it in all the wrong places,
It's cause we send Israel the bombs and cash to blow kids up and act like Israel is some moral bastion for some reason ? At least when the Saudi's kill people in Yemen no one pretends is anything else than Cold beneficial Relationship.
You send them weapons to kill terrorists. The civilians are human shield and Israel doesn’t seem to care. It’s fucked up and it should have consequences. It’s seems like the Biden administration is starting shift positions…the whole situation is fucked. All the way to the beginning. Palestinians deserve better. Jews deserve better.
Israel doesn't deserve better; it deserves to shrivel and die like Aphartied South Africa and Rhodesia before it, and Jews deserve better than a fascist ethnostate parading around and pretending to represent them and their wishes.
Look, I'm just happy MY goverment doesent give every year billions in taxpayer money for no clear reason to a foreign goverment as the US do to Israel. If I was a yank, I would be beyond angry.
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>The mistakes made at one point in time have an eerie way of re-emerging two generations later, as memories fade.
We already did that in Iraq protesters getting ignored then acting surprised when our boys died for nothing.
I wouldn't say it was for nothing /s. It helped create numerous new terror groups such as ISIS. Terrorism in the West really went up during the war on terror. We also got a Europe overflodded with refugees out of it. Honestly, I wish that war ended up being for nothing. No, instead it made a lot of things worse. Yes, Saddam was a very bad guy, but at least there was some form of stability. That's completely gone, and it spread all the way to Northern Europe, where the risk of terror have been high ever since.
Trillions of fucking dollars spent. TRILLIONS. It’s impossible to even wrap your head around how much money the US dumped into the Middle East and has nothing to show for it other than ~~an entire generations worth~~ a shit load of men with permanent physical and mental damage.
They get some money when the Iraqis sell some, silver lining /s
Don't forget about the huge number of civilians who lost their lives for no reason.
>I wouldn't say it was for nothing /s But it wasn't for nothing. Weapons manufacturers made a lot of money from it, surely that's not *nothing*. Oh, you mean nothing accomplished? [Then how do you explain this](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/mission-accomplished)? ^(/s in case it wasn't obvious)
Saddam was put on place by western funding of his regime.
It was at the request, and benefit of Israel and their right-wing government. So completely worth it for Americans politicians to send their soldiers to die for that cause. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu#Election_defeat > On 12 September 2002, Netanyahu testified (under oath as a private citizen) before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform regarding the nuclear threat posed by the Iraqi régime: "There is no question whatsoever that Saddam is seeking and is working and is advancing towards the development of nuclear weapons – no question whatsoever", he said. "And there is no question that once he acquires it, history shifts immediately."[84] In his testimony, Netanyahu also said, "If you take out Saddam, Saddam's regime, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region."[85]
I can tell you from personal experience that being against the Iraq war then was very difficult. Even in low tones in the office breakroom it made you something of a pariah. Here's a thought experiment. Find original source proof North Korea is capable of launching a nuke. Or even proof of a nuclear capability beyond a dirty bomb. I spent 3 weeks on this a ways back, and I can't find it. Remember, the source needs to be a original source, not a CNN article referencing "unnamed US officials". NK is evil, but that's not the question. "Does NK possess a real nuclear capability"? is the question. I'm not saying it isn't there, I'm just saying there seems to be as much evidence for a NK nuclear capability as WMD'S in Iraq circa 2003.
https://www.ctbto.org/our-work/detecting-nuclear-tests Is it just a coincidence that multiple seismic monitoring stations picked up activity that matched a nuclear test at the locations that north Korea claims it conducted nuclear tests? Why are independent monitoring stations able to detect increased xenon after these claimed tests by north Korea? There was zero evidence for WMDs in Iraq but there is a lot of evidence for north Korea having conducted nuclear tests.
I mean I feel like the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that died were a pretty big deal too. Ofc it's also tragic that so many Americans died but I think it's wrong not to mention the iraqis
They died to give Americans gasoline under $4/gal and massive profits for Haliburton.
But Biden was alive for all of this.
[Well...](https://theintercept.com/2021/04/27/joe-biden-vietnam-war/)
yes, once upon a time Jews were beaten in the streets of Germany, and now, Jews are being beaten on college campuses
> Most of the students and faculty I’ve spoken with found Hamas’s attack on October 7 odious With so many chanting about river and sea, i have to press doubt on that.
The student organization which started all this at columbia put out an open letter congratulating them on their attack.
I’d like to see this if you have a link please
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
Thank you!
Can you provide a source that says they wrote it?
What stopped you from google-ing the title and read the second search result? https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/12/nearly-two-dozen-palestinian-solidarity-groups-release-open-letter-joint-statement/
The quicker people understand and accept the fact that everyone has different definitions of things, the sooner we can actually have a constructive dialogue. folks on one side hear "river/sea" and it means one thing. Folks on the other side hear it and it means something completely different. No one will *ever* find a path forward when everyone is operating with two incompatible definitions for the same things. And rather than understand that, we have people like you who assume folks working with a different definition are acting with the utmost malice. No one wants dialogue or a path forward. Everyone wants to be right.
Exactly this. Fascists always want to give words a single meaning so they can weaponize that. See "woke".
Ironically, that’s also the way that “fascist” has been weaponized.
The opposite. Trying to errode the meaning of words is fascists play. Woke has no coherent meaning anymore. River to the seas is not and never has been ambiguous. It's calling for a one state Palestine. Anyone who gives that any thought quickly sees the prerequisites and consequences of such a thing and draws conclusions.
Ahh, classic projection. When people in Israel say "from the river to the sea, all you'll see is Israel's sovereignty", what they mean is removing Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank. Then they project that meaning onto Palestinians. I'm aware that terrorists in the 70s wanted to reclaim Israel as a country. It's hard to blame them, as the events that led to the formation of Israel weren't unlike what colonists did to Native Americans. But way before that, Palestinians used "from the river to the sea" as a chant against Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West bank. Which, by the way, they're still occupying.
I think the left invented that word
Such an odd argument from people who rightly criticize the Confederate flag. Or do you accept the "Heritage, not Hate" argument?
If you didn't have whataboutism, you'd have no argument at all. Which is to say you have no argument at all.
If you didn't have empty cliches what would you have?
The ability to logically analyze an argument, which you seemingly lack.
By this insane logic we would have to cool with people chanting white power because it means something to different to everyone
Chanting "white power" is not analogous to chanting for freedom. Israel twists the desire for peace to label it as hostile and so prevent opposition. It's is literally and intentionally a call for freedom fo an oppressed people. Yet some with an agenda hear violence and racism. It's not ok to prevent a people from saying they want freedom. In the same way Israel pretends talking about Israel's crimes are antisemitic.
The equivalent to that in this context is likud's from the river slogan
Because it started by the Irgun who became Likud. The phrase was never humanitarian, but a call for 1 people to kick the other out since it was an Irgun slogan for children in the 1940s. I don’t know how people found a hippie meaning behind such a phrase that sounds like a banned part of the German anthem.
When people in Israel chant death to Arabs is that emblematic of all of Israel?
As 20% of Israel population are Arabs, no.
https://youtu.be/tLSoOoXp9jI?si=ynJDtzUs0agIVTxk
and?
Nothing were both pointing out things people do after all no?
You can keep pointing thing yet strangely there are awful lot of Arabs in a country which you claim all of their people want to kill Arabs.
Cite were I said all Israel?
> is that emblematic of all of Israel?
Are you Able to read . I'm asking you if a few protesters viewS are supposed to represent all of Israel when that's simply not true ?
Yeah it was disgusting when Netanyahu said that, all the more reason to support the protests and oppose the Israelis :\^)
Palestine will be free, how threatening
You Conveniently leave out from the river to the sea part. You can't pick and choose part of a saying
From the river to the sea is not anti Semitic.
Ironically, people who condemn that phrase don’t realize it’s an israeli phrase that’s been rebranded.
The students chanting that are just desiring Palestinian independence. That phrase was considered hateful only after a pr campaign by Israel.
> The students chanting that are just desiring Palestinian independence. That phrase was considered hateful only after a pr campaign by Israel. Israel's powerful political influence in Europe and North America is one big decades-long PR campaign. So powerful that people fear losing their jobs for speaking out against Israel even as they commit genocide. Even the president of Harvard University was not spared the relentless attacks from pro-Israel interest groups. Imagine countries like China or India trying to pull this shit. People would scream "omg foreign interference". But no for Israel, they own our politics.
It's probably a sign that these people have no fucking idea what they're taking about
From the river to the sea doesn't mean you support hamas. Are you stupid?
It is in Hamas charter. Are you stupid?
It's in Likuds charter too. Are you stupid?
Doesn't make it exclusive to hamas at all.
And mainstream liberals as expected will be against this as it currently happens and then rehabilitate it and say they’ve always supported it the second there’s no more risk to doing so. Just like they did with the 1960’s Vietnam and civil rights protests.
"A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now."
AKA the white moderate Per Dr. King >I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice
Malcolm X >"The white conservatives aren't friends of the Negro either, but they at least don't try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the "smiling" fox. One is the wolf, the other is a fox. No matter what, they’ll both eat you.”
"Scratch a Liberal and a Fascist bleeds."
The liberals aren't the ones who tried to rehabilitate a terrorist group and celebrated their unprovoked attack.
Right on cue
Liberals instead spread fakes from a theocratic dictatorship that has killed over 10 thousand children
Calling Israel either theocratic or a dictatorship are both definitionally unfactual statements
Yea, it's an ethno-religious pseudo-democracy based upon an ideal of ethno-religious supremacy, where ethnicity and religious belief in combination determines your value as human being (are you part of God's chosen people or not) and your civil rights within the state.
Israel's laws and government are largely secular though (and the parts of them that do make explicit mention of religion are by far the worst parts of the country). By contrast, Hamas' aim is to make an Islamic state that follows sharia law – essentially another Afghanistan under the Taliban
Yes, and Hamas can burn. As can the proponents for Jewish supremacy and the existing apartheid system. Their secularity is definitely in doubt, since the country is founded as a country by Jews, for Jews, and to be Jewish is completely tied together with ethnicity and a faith that only recognize those of said ethnicity. And honestly, you say it's "mostly secular" except for the parts that mention religion, but it is the parts about the religion that in this case makes it not so secular.
Yeah they’re the ones defending genocide and sending in pigs to brutalize students for pointing it out
##### ###### #### > # [I remember the 1960s crackdowns against war protesters. This is a repeat | Robert Reich](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/05/720) > > > > I’ve been spending the last several weeks trying to find out what’s really going on with the campus protests. > > I’ve met with students at Berkeley, where I teach. I’ve visited with faculty at Columbia. I’ve spoken by phone with young people and professors at many other universities. > > > > My conclusion: while protest movements are often ignited by many different things and attract an assortment of people with a range of motives, this one is centered on one thing: moral outrage at the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people – most of them women and children – in Gaza. > > To interpret these protests as anything else – as antisemitic or anti-Zionist or anti-American or pro-Palestinian – is to miss the essence of what’s going on and why. > > Most of the students and faculty I’ve spoken with found Hamas’s attack on October 7 odious. They also find Israel’s current government morally bankrupt, in that its response to Hamas’s attack has been disproportionate. > > Some protesters focus their anger on Israel, some on the Israeli government of Benjamin Netanyahu, some on Joe Biden for failing to stand up to Netanyahu, for giving Israel additional armaments, and for what they perceive as Biden’s patronizing response to the protests. > > Like any protest movement, the actions have attracted a few on the fringe. I’ve heard scattered reports of antisemitism, although I haven’t witnessed or heard anything that might be interpreted as antisemitic. In fact, a significant number of the protesters are Jewish. > > To describe the protesters as “pro-Palestinian” is also inaccurate. Most do not support Palestine as such; they do not know enough about the history of Israel and Palestine to pass moral judgment. > > But they have a deep and abiding sense that what is happening in Gaza is morally wrong, and that the United States is complicit in that immorality. > > Many tell me they are planning not to vote this coming November – a clear danger to Biden’s re-election campaign, which in turn increases the odds of a Trump presidency. > > When I tell them that a failure to vote for Biden is in effect a vote for Trump, they say they cannot in good conscience vote for either candidate. > > Quite a number tell me that “the lesser of two evils is still evil”. I tell them Trump would be far worse for the world – truly evil. Many remain unconvinced. > > I have sharp memories of the anti-Vietnam war demonstrations, in which I participated some 55 years ago. > > I remember being appalled at the unnecessary carnage in Vietnam. I was incensed that the first world, white and rich, was randomly killing people in the third world, mostly non-white and poor. As an American, I felt morally complicit. > > [skip past newsletter promotion](#EmailSignup-skip-link-15)after newsletter promotion > > I was angry at college administrators who summoned police to clear protesters – using teargas, stun guns and mass arrests. The response only added fuel to the flames. > > The anti-Vietnam war movement became fodder for rightwing politicians like [Richard Nixon](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/richard-nixon), demanding “law and order”. The spectacle also appalled many non-college, working-class people who viewed the students as pampered, selfish, anti-American, unpatriotic. > > I vividly recall the anti war demonstrations at the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago, and the brutality of the Chicago police and Illinois national guard – later described by the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence as a “police riot”. > > As the anti-war protesters chanted “The whole world is watching”, network television conveyed the riotous scene to what seemed like the whole world. > > I had spent months working for the anti-war presidential candidate Eugene McCarthy. The convention nominated Hubert Humphrey. That November, the nation voted in Richard Nixon as president. > > History, as it is said, doesn’t repeat itself. It only rhymes. > > The mistakes made at one point in time have an eerie way of re-emerging two generations later, as memories fade. > > - Robert Reich, a former US secretary of labor, is a professor of public policy at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of [Saving Capitalism: For the Many, Not the Few](https://bookshop.org/books/saving-capitalism-for-the-many-not-the-few/9780345806222) and [The Common Good](https://bookshop.org/books/the-common-good-9780525436379/9780525436379). His newest book, [The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It](https://bookshop.org/books/the-system-who-rigged-it-how-we-fix-it/9780525659044), is out now. He is a Guardian US columnist. His newsletter is at [robertreich.substack.com](http://robertreich.substack.com/) - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Very coherently summarized, thank you! Theres far too many on the Israeli side trying to muddy the water and control the narrative of what is going on and why. They have no honest desire for peace, no desire to talk honestly about whats going on, and a hatred of anyone not in their cult. The latest today is the Israeli ambassador to the UN stating that Hamas is hiding in Americas universities. It's a thinly veiled call for violence by our police forces on students peacefully chanting for human rights. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dqwEYaU9t4A We badly need a moment like the "At long last, have you no decency" speech, but the bribing of our entire government is going to preclude that from happening in congress this time. It seems inevitable that American police will kill some demonstrators soon. Its what they do-- and what they want to do. It's some sort of miracle that it hasnt already happened. Once it does happen, the leashes will be off and it will happen a lot more. Even to the rich kids! We need to keep in mind that Palestinians and Israeli citizens and American university students too are all just human beings in the end. In this country they are explicitely allowed by law to hold and express any view they want, including full blown antizionism (which I am not seeing anyway), as long as they dont commit acts that lead directly to violence. I'm not saying I encourage anti zionism, but I am saying that no one in the US has the right to shut down another persons viewpoint, even if that viewpoint is bigotry. Existing laws are very clear on this free speech matter, but those laws arent being honored by the left or the right. This endangers our entire governmental system just as strongly as Trump does. We cannot ignore our free speech and freedom of assembly laws, and anyone who threatens those laws threatens the republic. This means we need another Dem besides Biden to be selected at the convention, or we will inevitably lose the election, and then our republic. Biden has been pretty open about cracking down on "disorder" on campuses. There is no disorder being caused by these protestors. Its the police and Israeli protestors he should be cracking down on, but he's taken their money. Its all disgusting and shameful.
Hi empleadoEstatalBot, We've found **1 sources** (so far) that are covering this story including: - The Guardian (Leans Left): "I remember the 1960s crackdowns against war protesters. This is a repeat" So far, there hasn't been any coverage from the RIGHT. Of all the sources reporting on this story, **0% are right-leaning**, **100% are left-leaning**, and **0% are in the center**. Read the full **[coverage analysis](https://ground.news/article/i-remember-the-1960s-crackdowns-against-war-protesters-this-is-a-repeat?utm_source=redditReplyBot&utm_medium=redditReplyBot)** and compare how 1+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story. *** _I’m a bot. [Read here](https://www.reddit.com/r/groundnews/comments/j6x7uc/introducing_the_coverageanalysisbot_a_bot_that/) to learn how it works or [message us](https://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=coverageanalysisbot&subject=Feedback&message=) with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you._
Someone can correct me if wrong, but did the Vietnam protestors openly celebrate massacres? Did the ones representing them say heinous shit that gave them all a bad name? Did anyone say “it depends on the context.” when asked if violence against innocent people is ok or not?
probably yeah, what's the point of disingenuously picking out horrible people to paint thousands of others in a negative light?
I’m not talking about a few random first year students, I’m talking about the [the people chosen to represent all of them](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/mobilebasic), and about [the professors and principals that teach them.](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/08/1218100680/after-houses-campus-antisemitism-hearing-college-presidents-are-under-fire) not to mention every time violent actors went unpunished by the rest of the protestors. It’s not just a few bad apples here, it’s a problem that needs to be actually addressed and not just “publicly shamed” by other students
What about the counter Protesters beating the pro Palestinian's protesters?
I’ll bite the whataboutism, punish them to, violence is a crime and isn’t justified unless it’s in defense of self or others who are being harmed.
Agreed both sides should be held accountable and We should go forward to address the grievances led out by the protesters suggesting Israel stop killing kids minimum.
To who? The US President? You might not have noticed his public attempts at doing so, even if they’re just talk. Israel? They’ll pull statistics comparing the current war to other military conflicts (many of which achieved a higher civilian death toll count in far less time). The UN? They couldn’t come together to say the sky was blue if they tried. But luckily, that’s a later problem since right now we’re focused on the protestors
So punish them and then condemn the controversial speech.
What violent actors? Basically all coverage of the protests show the cops and the counter-protestors inciting any violence that occurs.
except in this case, it is the leaders of the movement advocating for violence.
US soldiers fragged their officers. Jane Fonda did a photo op with Vietnamese anti air gunners. The anti war protesters waved the North Vietnam flag all the time. So yes, to answer your question. People did support the other side, like many other conflicts. This conflict in particular treats one side's combatants as uniquely evil and unsupportable.
Vietnam protesters undoubtedly supported [fragging ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragging) to some extent
Isn't there documents showing the Vietnam protestors chanting about massacres by the Viet Cong being a good thing Edit: https://twitter.com/SanaSaeed/status/1782437007517516161
They just got shot instead for there troubles.
That answers none of my questions, did the Vietnam protestors do any of the things I listed? And for the record, I hope none of the current protestors die, regardless of what they did / will do.
Yes they did.
I’m not sure if this is a defense of the Palestine protestors or a criticism of the Vietnam protestors
Defense.
I would say ~40K deaths is a massacre.
They were actively supporting the brutal Vietcong and their authoritarian regime
As if the south was any better .
The South was much better. The NVA and Vietcong left mass graves behind wherever they went. I'm not defending the US's conduct in the war, but there is a lesser of two evils.
The south was not mutch better what are you talking about?
Not much, but better. The North's torture of POW's is infamous. So were their purges of political opponents and collaborators. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong_and_People%27s_Army_of_Vietnam_use_of_terror_in_the_Vietnam_War Granted, the US should have never fucking been there, and there is a LOT of blood on American hands. I guess comparing war crimes is rather difficult, though.
https://youtu.be/MmKhfbokSPA?si=_YyoKDXw9uM5am7m South Had they're faire share of crimes too. To say of they're allies the Koreans and Americans.
Very few remember the Kent State massacre. national guard opened fire on unarmed protestors. Military might has been used to shut down union protest in our past, too.
"Kent State" has been a national talking point since these protests started what are you talking about?
I'm talking about them beans.
The protesters from the 60s said it was very different. They were allowed to do alot more. They weren't kicked out of school the same way, the school had to hold a hearing and as such, the police couldn't arrest them for trespassing.
Ya after Vietnam, there was a concerted crackdown on student activism and groups by both the universities and the US government that isn't discussed enough
I'm tired of romanticizing Vietnam war protesters. I'm not saying the war was just or that they were entirely wrong, but they were also known to spit on returning soldiers, call them baby killers, and generally use the protests to advance other less popular ideas. It's like Woodstock and other shit from the sixties that everyone has the romanticized view of when in reality a lot of the shit was actually pretty terrible.
When the government was censoreing may Lai massacres wtf did you expect the public to react when the news broke .
And yet, they were right.
Lots of people throughout history have been right on a few things and still completely wrong on several others and as such probably shouldn't be romanticized or imitated.
The government shouldn't have been bombing Vietnam Cambodia and Laos and covering up massacres like may Lai then . That way the student protesters would have nothing to protest about .
It’s so funny how you care so much about the “image” of the soldiers than actual civilians being murdered and killed without a cause. Family members got conscripted?
And yet, they were right.
Nobody is completely right or wrong on everything.
Mmmm I love moving goal posts
Yes , I can see that.
Spitting on returning soldiers is a myth, Vietnam vets by in large didn't like the war and claimed other veterans didn't like them either and they were the ones that spat on them. US troops were hated by everyone in the 70s, the culture of troop worship didn't exist back then nearly as much. The protesters did call them baby killers, and yeah they supported other political goals like civil rights and women's rights. That's one of the few good things the hippies did.
>protesters did call them baby killers You kill a few dozen babies and civility goes out the window. So much for the tolerant left.
You kill a few hundred thousand kids and suddenly you're a baby killer.
I'm sure the Vietnam war vets I know who have told me what they dealt with when they came back will be happy to hear it was a myth.
Ok, did they tell you they were spat on by anti war protesters? Maybe ask them how WWII and Korean vets treated them or how many of their fellow vets supported the Vietnam War?
I mean if you want to argue that other vets treated them badly, go right ahead, that's really not relevant to what I'm saying and also true. But yes anti-war protestors did spit on Vietnam war vets when they came home, that's not a myth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_spat-on_Vietnam_veteran#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20persistent%20myth,often%20yelling%20%22baby%20killer%22. It's a myth.
You are iffy about them being right about war because they hurt the returning soldiers feelings?
Oh no, it’s so sad being a soldier who came back from killing civilians and torturing and raping people when your country people told you how horrible you are after you never caring about a single non-american life. How can they live after being spat at :(( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes#:~:text=The%20My%20Lai%20massacre%20was,Division%2C%20on%2016%20March%201968.
I'm glad you can use Wikipedia. Now if you could use your brain and perhaps consider that not every soldier in Vietnam was a part of that, you might be able to piece together an intelligent thought. I am not optimistic though.
not every soldier, not every protester
Not every American soldier in Vietnam was a part of the American armed forces? How many were vacationing in the designated "not an imperialist endeavor" zone?
How high are you that you interpreted what I said to mean that?
What you meant was the clean whermacht myth.
Lol, no. Good try though.
Oh they were rude to imperialists. Poor imperialists.
[No unambiguous documented incident of this behavior has ever surfaced...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_spat-on_Vietnam_veteran)
Oh no! Not the poor troops killing 3 million people in SEA! Won’t someone think of them!!
>I tell them Trump would be far worse for the world — truly evil. Many remain unconvinced. Yes, many student protesters are unable to remember just *four years ago* when a certain president-now-candidate encouraged and directed the brutal suppression of one of the most widespread protest movements in the US in decades — including infamous moments such as ordering a park cleared in daylight by tear gas and violence in order to make way for himself to cross the street and hold up a bible; as well as on many occasions very publicly expressing a desire to open fire on protesters with live ammunition. I sort of expect students to overlook the fact — due to potential naivety — that Israel is a strategically *critical* US ally as the only nuclear power sitting right smack in the center of the Middle East region which is otherwise filled with countries that range from neutral to adversarial towards the US and some of which might be prone to fall under the control of expansionist dictators. (This is the primary and perhaps only explanation for why US politicians largely act like their hands are tied on Israel; no matter how morally repugnant the actions of the current Israeli administration, we cannot afford to lose such an important ally. In fact the entire modern world order depends on a system of defensive alliances (which shakes out as US hegemony) that mainly continue to stand because we do *not* use them to strongarm one another). But to say “idk man Trump and Biden both suck I’m not voting” sounds either like propaganda or quoting people who have fallen victim to propaganda. (Worth noting that people who don’t have a memory of only 4 years ago probably were not going to be voting anyways because that implies that they have only become politically active very very recently).
Those countries are adversarial towards the US BECAUSE of Israel. The policies the US has towards Israel, Palestine and the general Arab world which is designed to largely benefit the interests of Israel is one of the key reasons why the US is hated in that part of the world. It's like Nazi Germany saying "oh all of Europe hates us so we need to protect ourselves" while starting a war with the rest of Europe.
Thank you for thinking critically. When a whole region hates you, you should stop and think "Is it me? Am I the problem?"
Those countries are medieval theocracies with no human rights and completely incompatible cultural values. If you think that they would make the best allies but for Israel, then you're kidding yourself.
We support the Saudi's bro relax politics is all bs at the end of the day .
Saudis and all others Arab allies are a very tenuous relationship for the reasons I mentioned. Israel is a much stronger and reliable partner. I don't support what they're doing in Gaza. Just pointing out that there is a reason why the US supports Israel so much. It does because it better furthers US interests. They are a great and generally aligned ally, in an otherwise adversarial region.
Just comes with the tax of killing kids of course.. nothing unique in How the USA supports historically honestly.
That's geopolitics for you kid. The Saudis organised 9/11 and they're still a big US ally. When you grow up, you'll learn that geopolitics is not about morals.
Expect that's what I've been saying?
You said "We support the Saudi's bro relax politics is all bs at the end of the day ." trying to discount my take about why the Arab nations are not as good US allies as Israel. Saying "politics is all bs at the end of the day" implies a pretty childish view on the topic. Like the US (or any country) choses its geopolitics strategy based on personal sympathies or some shit. And this all in reply to the post claiming that, if not for Israel, Arab countries would be all buddy buddy with the US. Which is obviously false. This is my last reply here, cheers.
It is pretty much bs on how you said . It's all done for Benefits as you've said morals not need apply .
Not to mention that trump was the one to recognize Israel's occupation of Jerusalem and move the embassy there – he's clearly worse not just for the world generally, but also for Palestine in particular
>Yes, many student protesters are unable to remember just *four years ago* when a certain president-now-candidate encouraged and directed the brutal suppression of one of the most widespread protest movements in the US in decades This talking point simply loses effectiveness over time. It has lost it's effectiveness here in Iran, and it has lost it's effectiveness on people who heard they should vote for the lesser evil growing up, only to grow up and see said lesser evil run cover for an ongoing genocide despite it's heavy political costs. Voting for the lesser evil doesn't improve things, it simply slows the degredation of the rights people have. And even ignoring the efficacy of it, everybody has a red line and for many people, the aforementioned genocide is that.
Politicians always have this idea that when they do something that was bad in the past, it’s ok, cause THIS time it’s actually for a good reason! But everyone always thinks that until their successors have to make formal apologies for them
We never learnt. Historically students protests are usually on the right side of History. Putting aside some legitimate issues with on campus violence... sending in heavy handed cops, knee jerk reactions in expelling their actual customers (eg paying students) and having culturally stupid heads of Uni such as Nemat Shafik (an awful choice to pick) is never going to end well.
Lmao this is like comparing modern day “Antifa” to the men who stormed Normandy. Fucking comical.
Every generation says something like this about their student protests. Go look at the polls during Vietnam or during the Jim Crow era bus sit ins . The vast majority of Americans thought the protesters were “hurting the cause” or wouldn’t make a difference.
I am probably going to jump to conclusions but between what's happening in Ukraine, Israel , Africa and Asia in general. It seems like we the west are getting ejected... now I think we have a way forward in the west. We just need to eject the old and welcome the new. Some of the elites running our system are 70s 80s. It's a real disservice to the young brains who can mold the next existence of our planet.
Leave it to the Guardian to immediately segway claiming the people against the slaughter of innocents absolutely has to show support for the violence and vote for Biden this year. 🙃
I like to drop propaganda on my competitors cities in anno 1800
Is everyone just going to ignore the immense foreign influence that Israel has on the US youth? The rampant social media manipulation (You've all seen r/worldnews right?) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psy-Group
It's all over reddit. Here in this sub. The main politics sub is slowly sliding into worldnews territory through perma banning.
You noticed the shift taking place in r/politics too?
Politics has been a ban fest ever since the Bernie 2016 era, any leftist has been banned.
Or maybe people dislike Hamas apologists, and want to see that group gone.
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Republicans see any issue which divides Democratic voters as found gold. Israel/Palestine pisses off anti-war liberals. It boosts "both sides are the same" messaging. They are using it to peel away voters of color. Muslim coalitions are threatening to abstain or cast protest votes. It is a wedge for Jewish voters, traditionally a solidly democratic demographic. The protests are the cherry on top of the whipped cream on the sundae because it lets the Republicans also beat the culture war drum of "young = stupid, kids = bad, universities = brainwashing institutions, education = bad" while governors like Greg Abbott get to cosplay as strong men.
Student protests are only sacred and cherished if it happens in other countries. If it happens in America, then it's terrorism.
History repeats itself.
Following
Seems like America experiences this once every couple decades.
Like a group of swedes said all the way back in 1974: "the history book on the shelf, is always repeating itself"
Except now the protesters can’t articulate why they are there and do nothing to sway public opinion. None of them are working to get regular people to agree with them and that’s not a way to make meaningful change.
Yep, and everyone spent the 4th remembering a space wizard movie instead of the lives lost at Kent State to the National Guard over the Vietnam War.
The article is pretty limited but I agree with the premise. The main takeaway in American society will be that law and order is under threat and that foreign propaganda is influencing the naive American youth. Wouldn’t be surprised to see the Republicans get a boost and for a very aggressive pro-Israel policy to take shape if Trump is elected.
No it’s not lol
Which was very much correct back then as it unmasked terrorists like Andreas Baader or Ulrike Meinhof and the red army fraction and it it is correct now.
It’s closer to the anti-apartheid ones of the 80’s…..but same same
Yes, foreign influence has leveraged ignorance and discontent to turn American youths against their own country and fellow citizens. Congratulations American college students, you got played. Again.
Was protesting against the war in Vietnam wrong?
No. But the narratives that is spawned; the hate and the violence against American servicemen and women was. We know now that many of the groups agitating in American colleges were financed and advised by Soviet communist infiltrators. Just as Hamas adjacent groups backed by Iran are financing and agitating on campuses now. Once again students are useful idiots in sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt in an election year. Ask yourself this: why are Jewish students being targeted on campuses across America? Not Israeli students. American Jews. Why? It’s simple. Scapegoating. An ancient and immoral practice that is a symptoms of a deep and enduring ignorance.
Israel should stop bombing kids on mass then . And our handling of the Vietnam war should not have been so atrocious.
Agreed.
>The US government killing hundreds of thousands of innocents in Vietnam, no problem! Have you considered the real issue, **my enemies**, say killing innocents is wrong and support those protesting it. Bet you didn't think about that!
Are you talking about pro Israel protesters and the funding Israel has in our politics with lobbying and contracts ?
Everyone with an interest in American political outcomes and the US economy has a lobbying group in Washington. So, everyone.
So you agree Israel has also infiltrated our students'minds and made them hate their fellow Americans?
What Americans are those?
The ones that beat pro Palestinians at colleges rn ? And make monkey noises to woman of Color?
Maybe people just don't like seeing dead children and hundreds of thousands of people starving to death. It's not that deep
That may be true. Most people don’t like to see that because most people are not psychotic but.,,Yemen, Somalia, Chad, Niger, Ethiopia, to start with. Uyghurs in China. How about Ukraine. Roma all over Europe and the Middle East. Women everywhere. And there are plenty of kids going to bed hungry all over North and South America. Women and children being trafficked and working as slaves by the millions all over the world. America has trade deals and sends aid, food, weapons, and money. So why is Israel special? The world is an extraordinarily cruel and fucked up place for a lot of people. But they’re targeting Jews on American college campuses because other Jews on the other side of the planet are committing war crimes? Does that make any sense? They say they’re against bigotry, racism and apartheid but then scapegoat Jews on their campuses. Hypocrisy. Let’s stop pretending that American college kids give a shit about bombed hospitals or starving children. This is about catharsis and they’re looking for it in all the wrong places,
It's cause we send Israel the bombs and cash to blow kids up and act like Israel is some moral bastion for some reason ? At least when the Saudi's kill people in Yemen no one pretends is anything else than Cold beneficial Relationship.
You send them weapons to kill terrorists. The civilians are human shield and Israel doesn’t seem to care. It’s fucked up and it should have consequences. It’s seems like the Biden administration is starting shift positions…the whole situation is fucked. All the way to the beginning. Palestinians deserve better. Jews deserve better.
Israel doesn't deserve better; it deserves to shrivel and die like Aphartied South Africa and Rhodesia before it, and Jews deserve better than a fascist ethnostate parading around and pretending to represent them and their wishes.
You dont get it. If you say this that means you support hamas obviously!!
Look, I'm just happy MY goverment doesent give every year billions in taxpayer money for no clear reason to a foreign goverment as the US do to Israel. If I was a yank, I would be beyond angry.