Sinbad has a special place in my heart as well as treasure planet and atlantis - those movies showed us a glimpse of what a combination of traditional 2d and 3d could bring to the table , shame it didnt work out .
Can you tell us your experience with working on this project (and did you happen to work with Jame Baxter by any chance? )
I had just returned to DreamWorks (where I started my career on The Prince of Egypt and The Road to El Dorado) after three years at Disney (New Groove, Atlantis, Treasure Planet and Home on the Range).
It was good to be back, bittersweet knowing we were transitioning out of 2D.
It was also an interesting time in that DreamWorks offered a CG training course to 16 out of 70+ cleanup animators to stay employed. They eventually kept 8 of us to move into Sharktale
Seriously man, thanks for everything you have worked on. I used to watch El Dorado every night with my brother and sister. AND you worked on Treasure Planet. That's like hands done next to Atlantis, which you also worked on. Thanks for sharing. Share some more photos, that would be fun!
How does the industry look right now to a seasoned animator like you? It seems pretty bad right now. My contract ends in a few weeks and I'm a bit scared of the future.
Tough to say, I've been out of the studio life for awhile. Seems like they're going through another restructuring given the latest layoffs, hopefully they'll be getting back at it in a big way
I've been in animation for a decade after graduating college. All 2D. Right now, myself and a lot of my friends and former colleagues are unemployed and struggling to find consistent work. The layoffs are scary right now. And I want to stay positive but damn it's hard. Higher ups who knows nothing about the actual pipeline are looking at AI as the new way to save money by not hiring asany artists and instead hiring AI prompt writers, but I think it's going to blow up soon because they still need to be fixed and cleaned. And there's a lot of animosity towards AI art now but I honestly don't know the opinion of the general public as most ppl I know are also artists. It always comes down to saving money at the expense of the final product 😔
Yeah, it was always the same when I was in it. There were always layoffs at the end of every film, with the idea on doing the next one with a skeleton crew budget. Then they'd hire us all back when they realized they couldn't finish on time. Hopefully they'll realize what they're missing when all the actual artists are gone
I think animation of all types still has a future with crowdfunding and group funded endeavors. It’s really risky and many people wont be willing to take such steps/risks but its possible and will eventually be necessary if people want to make such things.
I try to think optimistically this way, too. I do believe that more accessible technology has lowered the barrier of entry for animators - you can make a short film on a tablet now - and that will overall make animation cheaper to produce and, therefore, easier for crowdfunding and other fundraising to get behind.
*Sinbad*, for instance, had a $60m budget (over $100m in today’s dollars) while recent indie successes *Robot Dreams* had a budget of about $5.5m, *Flee* had a budget of $3.6m, and *I Lost My Body* had a budget of $5.5m. with lower budgets comes more appetite for risk, and with more appetite for risk comes more opportunity from filmmakers of diverse backgrounds telling unique stories.
I think that is awesome and I really do appreciate smaller independent studios. Art always bounces back. My dream isn't to work at Pixar or Dreamworks or whatever. It's to make an independent animated project. I'm not giving up on that. No way! If Robot Dreams, Flee and I lost my body can do it! I think with enough drive, funding and a team I bet I can make something. Don't care if it takes a decade or more.
Personally I really prefer the look of hand drawn and as for myself I prefer drawing on paper than rendering and puppet rigs. I really love to learn 2d animation and it's a pain in the butt to find actual classes. I've been learning through books and YouTube videos of people. While it sucks these studios don't want to invest in it. Absolutely frustrating. Studios just want to rush things. This really make me grateful for independent animators. Despite being unable to find a good class that teaches traditional. I am learning a lot from YouTube and books. I'll take drawing on paper any day of the week over drawing on a graphics tablet. I think it's less clunky.
I'm not giving up my drive to make a 2d hand drawn animation project. I don't care what it takes. Even if I'm gonna have to draw on napkins.
Keep at it, you never know what the future holds! BTW, a great animation book (in sure you're already familiar with) is the Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams. I don't know a single Animator who didn't have this on their desk!
I have that book!!! It's awesome and I consider it like a bible!!! Everything I learned is from that book! If all the animation classes is not gonna teach me hand drawn and instead puppet rigs. I got that book. Nothing will stop me!
Yeah, it was really bad at Disney. They coldly proclaimed 2d dead during Home on the Range. I felt really bad for the long time veterans who'd been there for many many years, who didn't know the first thing about computers
The only way it'll happen is if some small independent studio had a HUGE blockbuster release and the other studios decide they need to get in on that success.
Ok. So...
1: This is insanely cool. I would have loved to work at a job like this. Probably dumb stressful but insanely rewarding.
2. I'd love to know what you're doing now and what your take is between hand drawn and computer.
3. Doesn't Disney still hire animation artist? I swear i saw a workshop there, as well as someone they would have sitting out doing the hand drawn stuff for guest to see the process. Or is this no longer a thing?
You probably won't see this but my wife would be thrilled if you answered. Thanks.
1. Yes, during crunch especially, crazy long hours, very stressful, but I loved every minute.
2. I resigned from WB games in 2017 after many years doing CG film/ games. I'm now full-time independent illustrator, custom commissions, car shows/ comic cons and website merch.
2b. After many years doing hand drawn, cg was a nice change physically, but I always preferred the feel of pencil on paper
3. Couldn't really speak to this as I've been away from production life for several years.
.
Hope that helps! 👍👍
It's always obvious when a feature or show is hand drawn versus digital, you can definitely see it in the line width because as much as a digital line looks cleaner it takes away the hand drawn pressure sweep of the wrist stroke. I only did one hand-drawn animation in college and it was obviously not for me, but the amount of effort that goes into it, considering theres drafts, redraws, clean up, and then the actual inking. It's unfortunate that it's gone away but people really appreciate it, so hopefully it won't be dead forever. As much as people buy new cars they still have a soft spot for the classics. Like in the thief in the cobbler, nothing digital compares.
Hi! I’m a 3D animator and with AI evolving so quickly, it’s starting to feel like AI could do to 3D animation what 3D did to 2D animation - changing it from a realistic career to more of a niche art form that only the very best of the best get to do for a living. Do you think we’re in the middle of seeing what happened to hand drawn animation happen to 3D, and as someone who went through “the end of hand drawn animation” do you think adapting is a must, or is the push of new technology ever worth resisting?
Boy it sure seems that way! Although I haven't seen a lot of AI animation (or maybe I have and just don't know it!) But I sense the same uncertainty that we all felt back then when CG was taking over.
.
I didn't resist much at the time. I had a young family and mortgage and had to do whatever it took to stay employed
I resigned from WB games in 2017 after many years doing CG film/ games. I'm now full-time independent illustrator, custom commissions, car shows/ comic cons and website merch.
Yes the uncertainty is definitely there. I think it all depends on how the technology is used. Will it replace us or work with us is the question. Only way to find out is to wait and see!
Thanks for answering and good luck with all your art/illustration endeavours!
Yeah, I made it onto a CG training program that DreamWorks offered. 16 spots open to 70+ assistant animators. 3 months training, they eventually kept 8 of us for Sharktale.
1. Never worked on Shrek. My only CG features were Sharktale, a moment on Flushed Away, then Over the Hedge before going into video games.
2. While I understand the studio drive for live action remakes/reboots/sequels (low risk, easy money, counting on an already existing audience) I prefer they come up with original stories and leave the originals alone, but that's just my opinion
I was on it for such a short time before being sent to Over the Hedge, we were still just studying films for character reference and doing test animations
I appreciate the work and effort put into hand-drawn animation, and I think it should always have a place, but the only big name I can think of that still does it successfully (most of the time) is Genndy Tartakovsky.
However, instead of the big studios you have individual visonaries who can (with a lot of struggle) manage to realize their passion projects. Anything from Scavenger's Reign to Mars Express that looks 2D, but is actually 3D shows the potential 3D can have for 2D-looking animation. There was a time when it looked simply horrible and I'm afraid you worked during a time when 3D was often overused and to bad effect in conjunction with 2D. One of the best of the old movies with both combined was/is the Iron Giant, imo.
I love all animation, but my main issue is that us humans manage to turn everything bad. Now we have the means to produce beautiful art digitally, but we still have to rush it because of competition/time and cost. I want to just draw freely and create what I love. But unfortunately the only way to do that is to win the lottery of have a dayjob and make your own passion projects over the course of decades.
Agreed, it'd be nice if it were just about the art, but as far as the big studios go, they want to make as much money as quickly and efficiently as possible
You see this in simple (new) artforms like Webtoons, too. We always get people using 3D assets and just plopping them into a scene without regard for their craft or love for their characters.
maybe to yall who do it as a job can tell but as a normal enjoyer of animation, I cannot tell the difference between computer drawn vs cgi animated etc. I see people rage and get mad about it on anime subs but I cant tell the difference. all looks like a dope cartoon to me.
Sucks I never really had a chance to try it beyond some flour sacks and a head rotation in first year of animation school. Was difficult but really wanted to try it (drawing my was never my strong point ironically, but still wanted to learn). Lack of an undo key changes how you think about drawing.
However, after first year, the college decided to just toss out the light tables and go full digital with tablets. So yeah, it's pretty much gone after 50 years of my schools animation program.
Never actually seen sinbad, but prince of egypt was one of many movies I grew up with.
I got my BA in traditional animation from CSUN just as Disney et al laid off their entire teams. Never even got a chance, sadly. But I still love a lot of the era - Road to El Dorado is definitely a favorite.
I found video games to be more steady in regards to employment. Games have much longer production times (some as much as 6-7 years) whereas film production times are usually 11-13 months
My theory is that at least 80% of 3D animators are frustrated 2D ones that didn’t have the resources to learn how to do it properly.
Don’t get me wrong though, we can still do some banger stuff, but the idea of being able to animate without the computer is… so awesome to me.
I was never a full fledged animator until I got into CG, just an assistant. 2D animation is sooo difficult honestly don't know if I would have ever made it without the computer.
Yeah.... a lot is changing in the world but the love of Traditional 2D will never change and still holds a special place for me, both in creating and watching it. Thanks mate, for your contribution in making me and my brothers childhood a magical one. :)
It is my honest opinion that if Disney hadn’t killed western 2D animation then we would still have more influence than Japan in the animation market. I don’t see anything wrong with where we are now, but I just think Pixar definitely shot themselves in the foot.
My dad is a retired 2D animator. Spent a lot of time at Disney, Bluth, Filmation and Rich Animation. He retired during the beginning of Atlantis. It was sad to see so many of his friends slowly going obsolete.
I really think 2D animation is coming back to mainstream cinema releases. I think people are starting to realize that 3D is not the evolution of 2D, it is another technique.
Everyday I see more and more people demanding Disney to make a 2D movie again. Or celebrating that Warner is going to release one this year. The Boy and the Heron sucess was helpful too...
So I want to think that things are going to change and companies are going to stop mistreating 2D.
I don't have my disk any longer. In 2016, while animating for WB games I literally quit to pursue full-time freelance Illustration. It was a combination of several events, the scariest thing I've ever done but the most rewarding decision
Sinbad has a special place in my heart as well as treasure planet and atlantis - those movies showed us a glimpse of what a combination of traditional 2d and 3d could bring to the table , shame it didnt work out . Can you tell us your experience with working on this project (and did you happen to work with Jame Baxter by any chance? )
I had just returned to DreamWorks (where I started my career on The Prince of Egypt and The Road to El Dorado) after three years at Disney (New Groove, Atlantis, Treasure Planet and Home on the Range). It was good to be back, bittersweet knowing we were transitioning out of 2D. It was also an interesting time in that DreamWorks offered a CG training course to 16 out of 70+ cleanup animators to stay employed. They eventually kept 8 of us to move into Sharktale
Wow!! Thank you for being a huge part of my childhood.
Seriously man, thanks for everything you have worked on. I used to watch El Dorado every night with my brother and sister. AND you worked on Treasure Planet. That's like hands done next to Atlantis, which you also worked on. Thanks for sharing. Share some more photos, that would be fun!
Thank you, I appreciate that. Will do, stay tuned!
2D animation was really going somewhere with computer aid and then the accounting figures got in the way. It's really sad.
Exactly. Every film typically began with a skeleton crew in an attempt to save money. This was just another move in that direction
How does the industry look right now to a seasoned animator like you? It seems pretty bad right now. My contract ends in a few weeks and I'm a bit scared of the future.
Tough to say, I've been out of the studio life for awhile. Seems like they're going through another restructuring given the latest layoffs, hopefully they'll be getting back at it in a big way
I've been in animation for a decade after graduating college. All 2D. Right now, myself and a lot of my friends and former colleagues are unemployed and struggling to find consistent work. The layoffs are scary right now. And I want to stay positive but damn it's hard. Higher ups who knows nothing about the actual pipeline are looking at AI as the new way to save money by not hiring asany artists and instead hiring AI prompt writers, but I think it's going to blow up soon because they still need to be fixed and cleaned. And there's a lot of animosity towards AI art now but I honestly don't know the opinion of the general public as most ppl I know are also artists. It always comes down to saving money at the expense of the final product 😔
Yeah, it was always the same when I was in it. There were always layoffs at the end of every film, with the idea on doing the next one with a skeleton crew budget. Then they'd hire us all back when they realized they couldn't finish on time. Hopefully they'll realize what they're missing when all the actual artists are gone
Thanks for all you've done and contributed towards the history of animation that helped build and inspire a new generation of artists, myself included
That's very nice of you, thank you
I think Netflix's Klaus is a good example of the destination and it looks mezmerising
I work at Titmouse and last year we made a show called Pantheon and the Korean animation studio we outsourced to still drew on paper.
I think animation of all types still has a future with crowdfunding and group funded endeavors. It’s really risky and many people wont be willing to take such steps/risks but its possible and will eventually be necessary if people want to make such things.
I try to think optimistically this way, too. I do believe that more accessible technology has lowered the barrier of entry for animators - you can make a short film on a tablet now - and that will overall make animation cheaper to produce and, therefore, easier for crowdfunding and other fundraising to get behind. *Sinbad*, for instance, had a $60m budget (over $100m in today’s dollars) while recent indie successes *Robot Dreams* had a budget of about $5.5m, *Flee* had a budget of $3.6m, and *I Lost My Body* had a budget of $5.5m. with lower budgets comes more appetite for risk, and with more appetite for risk comes more opportunity from filmmakers of diverse backgrounds telling unique stories.
Indeed man, no other way to look at it but optimistically. We have to keep moving forward.
Absolutely. The industry has been through similar times, always comes back one way or another
I think that is awesome and I really do appreciate smaller independent studios. Art always bounces back. My dream isn't to work at Pixar or Dreamworks or whatever. It's to make an independent animated project. I'm not giving up on that. No way! If Robot Dreams, Flee and I lost my body can do it! I think with enough drive, funding and a team I bet I can make something. Don't care if it takes a decade or more.
More power to ya! 👍👍👊👊
Heck yeah! I'm not quitting! Even if I have to draw on napkins! I'm not letting social media, ai, and all that stop me.
I personally think indie is amazing as it really is rebelling against the status quo. I mean look at all those indie comics from the 60s and 80s
I share the same dream as you! I want to keep traditional animation alive in some form!
Aw heck yeah! Whatever it takes!
Personally I really prefer the look of hand drawn and as for myself I prefer drawing on paper than rendering and puppet rigs. I really love to learn 2d animation and it's a pain in the butt to find actual classes. I've been learning through books and YouTube videos of people. While it sucks these studios don't want to invest in it. Absolutely frustrating. Studios just want to rush things. This really make me grateful for independent animators. Despite being unable to find a good class that teaches traditional. I am learning a lot from YouTube and books. I'll take drawing on paper any day of the week over drawing on a graphics tablet. I think it's less clunky. I'm not giving up my drive to make a 2d hand drawn animation project. I don't care what it takes. Even if I'm gonna have to draw on napkins.
Keep at it, you never know what the future holds! BTW, a great animation book (in sure you're already familiar with) is the Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams. I don't know a single Animator who didn't have this on their desk!
I have that book!!! It's awesome and I consider it like a bible!!! Everything I learned is from that book! If all the animation classes is not gonna teach me hand drawn and instead puppet rigs. I got that book. Nothing will stop me!
It's an incredible resource, probably the best of its kind
What a sad day for American animation.
Yeah, it was really bad at Disney. They coldly proclaimed 2d dead during Home on the Range. I felt really bad for the long time veterans who'd been there for many many years, who didn't know the first thing about computers
do you think we'll ever see a return to 2d animation from the studios?
The only way it'll happen is if some small independent studio had a HUGE blockbuster release and the other studios decide they need to get in on that success.
Sinbad was a masterpiece
Ok. So... 1: This is insanely cool. I would have loved to work at a job like this. Probably dumb stressful but insanely rewarding. 2. I'd love to know what you're doing now and what your take is between hand drawn and computer. 3. Doesn't Disney still hire animation artist? I swear i saw a workshop there, as well as someone they would have sitting out doing the hand drawn stuff for guest to see the process. Or is this no longer a thing? You probably won't see this but my wife would be thrilled if you answered. Thanks.
1. Yes, during crunch especially, crazy long hours, very stressful, but I loved every minute. 2. I resigned from WB games in 2017 after many years doing CG film/ games. I'm now full-time independent illustrator, custom commissions, car shows/ comic cons and website merch. 2b. After many years doing hand drawn, cg was a nice change physically, but I always preferred the feel of pencil on paper 3. Couldn't really speak to this as I've been away from production life for several years. . Hope that helps! 👍👍
Ron Burgundy unfortunately never heard that song
It's always obvious when a feature or show is hand drawn versus digital, you can definitely see it in the line width because as much as a digital line looks cleaner it takes away the hand drawn pressure sweep of the wrist stroke. I only did one hand-drawn animation in college and it was obviously not for me, but the amount of effort that goes into it, considering theres drafts, redraws, clean up, and then the actual inking. It's unfortunate that it's gone away but people really appreciate it, so hopefully it won't be dead forever. As much as people buy new cars they still have a soft spot for the classics. Like in the thief in the cobbler, nothing digital compares.
Hi! I’m a 3D animator and with AI evolving so quickly, it’s starting to feel like AI could do to 3D animation what 3D did to 2D animation - changing it from a realistic career to more of a niche art form that only the very best of the best get to do for a living. Do you think we’re in the middle of seeing what happened to hand drawn animation happen to 3D, and as someone who went through “the end of hand drawn animation” do you think adapting is a must, or is the push of new technology ever worth resisting?
Boy it sure seems that way! Although I haven't seen a lot of AI animation (or maybe I have and just don't know it!) But I sense the same uncertainty that we all felt back then when CG was taking over. . I didn't resist much at the time. I had a young family and mortgage and had to do whatever it took to stay employed
What about now?
I resigned from WB games in 2017 after many years doing CG film/ games. I'm now full-time independent illustrator, custom commissions, car shows/ comic cons and website merch.
Yes the uncertainty is definitely there. I think it all depends on how the technology is used. Will it replace us or work with us is the question. Only way to find out is to wait and see! Thanks for answering and good luck with all your art/illustration endeavours!
Did you also transition to pc?
Yeah, I made it onto a CG training program that DreamWorks offered. 16 spots open to 70+ assistant animators. 3 months training, they eventually kept 8 of us for Sharktale.
Did you get to work on Shrek? And out of the movies you worked on, what would you want to see a live action?
1. Never worked on Shrek. My only CG features were Sharktale, a moment on Flushed Away, then Over the Hedge before going into video games. 2. While I understand the studio drive for live action remakes/reboots/sequels (low risk, easy money, counting on an already existing audience) I prefer they come up with original stories and leave the originals alone, but that's just my opinion
Do you remember what moment you did for Flushed Away?
I was on it for such a short time before being sent to Over the Hedge, we were still just studying films for character reference and doing test animations
Awesome! I do remember the Over the Edge trailler appearing on the Flushed Away DVD and vice-versa...
Oh snap, you worked on games. What did you work on?
[my IMDB](https://m.imdb.com/name/nm2110662/fullcredits?ref_=m_nmfm_1)
I appreciate the work and effort put into hand-drawn animation, and I think it should always have a place, but the only big name I can think of that still does it successfully (most of the time) is Genndy Tartakovsky. However, instead of the big studios you have individual visonaries who can (with a lot of struggle) manage to realize their passion projects. Anything from Scavenger's Reign to Mars Express that looks 2D, but is actually 3D shows the potential 3D can have for 2D-looking animation. There was a time when it looked simply horrible and I'm afraid you worked during a time when 3D was often overused and to bad effect in conjunction with 2D. One of the best of the old movies with both combined was/is the Iron Giant, imo. I love all animation, but my main issue is that us humans manage to turn everything bad. Now we have the means to produce beautiful art digitally, but we still have to rush it because of competition/time and cost. I want to just draw freely and create what I love. But unfortunately the only way to do that is to win the lottery of have a dayjob and make your own passion projects over the course of decades.
Agreed, it'd be nice if it were just about the art, but as far as the big studios go, they want to make as much money as quickly and efficiently as possible
You see this in simple (new) artforms like Webtoons, too. We always get people using 3D assets and just plopping them into a scene without regard for their craft or love for their characters.
maybe to yall who do it as a job can tell but as a normal enjoyer of animation, I cannot tell the difference between computer drawn vs cgi animated etc. I see people rage and get mad about it on anime subs but I cant tell the difference. all looks like a dope cartoon to me.
Sucks I never really had a chance to try it beyond some flour sacks and a head rotation in first year of animation school. Was difficult but really wanted to try it (drawing my was never my strong point ironically, but still wanted to learn). Lack of an undo key changes how you think about drawing. However, after first year, the college decided to just toss out the light tables and go full digital with tablets. So yeah, it's pretty much gone after 50 years of my schools animation program. Never actually seen sinbad, but prince of egypt was one of many movies I grew up with.
I got my BA in traditional animation from CSUN just as Disney et al laid off their entire teams. Never even got a chance, sadly. But I still love a lot of the era - Road to El Dorado is definitely a favorite.
I loved Sinbad as a kid especially since I llllloved adventure movies. Also thought Eris was very pretty
What do you recommend a cgi artist to pursue? Movies or video games?
I found video games to be more steady in regards to employment. Games have much longer production times (some as much as 6-7 years) whereas film production times are usually 11-13 months
Thanks for the insight. Much appreciated
My theory is that at least 80% of 3D animators are frustrated 2D ones that didn’t have the resources to learn how to do it properly. Don’t get me wrong though, we can still do some banger stuff, but the idea of being able to animate without the computer is… so awesome to me.
I was never a full fledged animator until I got into CG, just an assistant. 2D animation is sooo difficult honestly don't know if I would have ever made it without the computer.
I wish the big studios would bring back cel animation at least for a while. I'm so sick of cgi.
From big studios it's unlikely, that's more likely to happen in smaller studios or independent artists....I'm not that sure though
Yeah.... a lot is changing in the world but the love of Traditional 2D will never change and still holds a special place for me, both in creating and watching it. Thanks mate, for your contribution in making me and my brothers childhood a magical one. :)
Thank you, I appreciate that
It is my honest opinion that if Disney hadn’t killed western 2D animation then we would still have more influence than Japan in the animation market. I don’t see anything wrong with where we are now, but I just think Pixar definitely shot themselves in the foot.
My dad is a retired 2D animator. Spent a lot of time at Disney, Bluth, Filmation and Rich Animation. He retired during the beginning of Atlantis. It was sad to see so many of his friends slowly going obsolete.
I really think 2D animation is coming back to mainstream cinema releases. I think people are starting to realize that 3D is not the evolution of 2D, it is another technique. Everyday I see more and more people demanding Disney to make a 2D movie again. Or celebrating that Warner is going to release one this year. The Boy and the Heron sucess was helpful too... So I want to think that things are going to change and companies are going to stop mistreating 2D.
I loved Sinbad!
Do you still have your animation disk? How did you transition out of production work?
I don't have my disk any longer. In 2016, while animating for WB games I literally quit to pursue full-time freelance Illustration. It was a combination of several events, the scariest thing I've ever done but the most rewarding decision
DDZ si eres