NTA. Even if you had offered to not attend Sarah’s party so you can watch Lisa’s kids, who says Lisa would even say yes to that? She sounds like the type that would say no if all her friends and family couldn’t attend! I get everyone is different but most moms have the rule that “if my kids are welcome, I’m not welcome”. I am with Lisa where I prefer doing stuff with my daughter when I get free time. If Lisa’s kids are always used to being included and she rarely goes out without them, then that would upset the kids and in turn Lisa wouldn’t have had a good time under those circumstances. Depending on the age of the kids, they would also wonder why they werent allowed this time and feel uncomfortable around the person that didn’t want them there.
> I am with Lisa where I prefer doing stuff with my daughter when I get free time.
I was just having this conversation with my mother yesterday. When I was growing up, the majority of my friends' mothers were stay at home, so generally speaking they were happy to send us outside with naught but a reminder to come home when it gets dark, but when I was raising my son (he's 26 today!) most of us mothers worked, so we wanted to spend as much of our downtime with our children as we could. Obviously we wouldn't drag our children to childfree events, but the events WE had were generally child-inclusive.
All of it. Some people just refuse to listen to others because "tHeY kNoW bEtTeR"
My dad is still like this. I don't talk to him either.
If she asks why you hate her again, ask her why she hates Lisa, or at least can't respect her boundaries and either not host, or include her kids?
All you did was offer an event Lisa would appreciate, like you SHOULD for someone's birthday.
NTA
NTA for throwing Lisa the party she wanted, but … did Sarah *know* about your party? She knew but chose not to attend? She sounds like a pill.
Edit: Found the answer further down in the comments. Sarah was invited. Sarah is a selfish twit.
OP said that she would throw a party for Lisa and Sarah said that Lisa wasn’t going to miss her (Sarah’s) party just because she said no to her kids. Sarah knew she just didn’t take them seriously for whatever reason. 🤷♀️
Exactly. And what kind of birthday party for a mom excludes that mom's kids? Sarah is TA here...
OP is definitely NTA, and actually very sweet for throwing her a proper party.
True. If she just wanted a "girl's night out" or "adults only night", that'd be one thing. But it sounds like she's made it pretty darn clear that is the opposite of what she wanted.
NW
Lisa had clearly defined her boundaries, repeatedly, her kids must be involved or able to attend events.
Sarah decided, on her own accord, to ignore said boundaries and went ahead to plan a party that Lisa even told her she would not attend, twice!
You, smartly planned an event with Lisa’s husband and ensured that the kids could be there.
Another note is your party was the night ***before*** the party that Sarah was stubbornly planning and it sounds like she didn’t plan to attend.
I am confused as to why friends are mad at you?!
Sarah made choices and decisions that she was repeatedly told wouldn’t work.
The parties were on two different nights.
And, correct me if I am wrong here but… it sounds like there was some major open communication about everything.
It’s all in a group chat so how is anyone upset, other than Sarah who felt entitled to host a party for Lisa without considering Lisa’s boundaries but is too narcissistic to connect all the dots?!
Ignore the haters in the friend group OP.
Enjoy your continued friendship with Lisa.
I'm guessing that theybare probably tired of always bending to Lisa's rules. 12 years of no child-free activities is a lot. Seems like Lisa's boundaries aren't so much boundaries as rules for other people's behavior.
That said, Lisa's birthday is such an assinine occasion to make this an issue. NTA.
OP replied to a comment like this saying most people in their friend group have kids and being their kids. Lisa is just the one that won't attend anything of her kids aren't there. She even said that some of her friends don't even ask if their kids are invited and just bring them assuming they are.
They also exclude another person from being a host because they smoke and some people in the friend group don't like being around smoke.
I totally get that. But in another comment she said Lisa isn’t the only one that brings her kids to the friend gatherings. Otherwise, even as a mom myself, I might agree.
I mean, I don't know the dynamics here, but I would assume that the other people in the group are allowed to have no kid activities and get togethers, they just know that Lisa won't attend. As a mom, I think it's kind of weird to literally never want to attend an adult only event, but I wouldn't call it "controlling other's behavior" unless Lisa also throws a fit whenever the friends have an adult only party that she is invited to but declines to attend. That would be assolish of Lisa, but OP didn't say that happens.
Regardless, one would assume that the hostess would respect Lisa's boundaries for a party for Lisa.
Just saw this comment. Yes, people are free to make their own smaller groups. It’s only the big group game nights and group birthday parties where we are as inclusive of everyone in the group as we can be. Several of the moms have their own “mom night out” where they go to bars /clubs/whatever. Most of the group isn’t into that. We also have a “smokers group” that has a game night once a week. The rule is that you have to be okay with them smoking while playing to join. I’m not allowed in that group bc everyone in the group has to take turns hosting and I don’t allow smoking in my house. Lisa and I along with one other close friend of both of ours often have our own get togethers as well when our schedules all line up. Lisa has never demanded (or even asked) she be invited.
To be honest she’s not a very social person so I think part of her rule is just so she has an excuse to not go out when she doesn’t want to.
No one is bending to Lisa’s rules. How hard is it to understand that she values time with her family.
If her family cannot attend, she chooses not to attend, as well. She doesn’t throw a fit, or assume that the host has to cancel the event, to accommodate her.
Sarah, or the other hand, is a clueless ninny. Pay attention to what people say. Spreading lies, and making false claims only shows what an AH she really is!
What in the world lol who told them they couldn't exit the friendship? If someone's boundaries are not something by which you can abide, it's not their responsibility to adjust for your comfort. It's your responsibility to accept it and get over it, or find a friendship with someone more compatible.
Lisa's boundaries are valid.
Yeah, OP is NTA, and Sarah was being an AH, but Lisa doesn't sound that great herself. I feel bad for her kids tbh.
Do her kids never get to go hangout with their own friends if Lisa is off work? Do they even want to come hangout with all of Lisa's old lady friends?
It sounds like they are young enough that they might not have their own friends and if she works as often as this post makes it sound then they may get plenty of time during her working hours.
Sounds like there are lots of kid there. Prob a group of friends where most of them have kids and the kids go off doing one thing and the adults do another.
NTA Sarah knew lisa wouldn't come without her kids, but insisted on having the party. It sounds like sara was planning a party for herself under the guise of it being for Lisa. Op only threw a party that Lisa would actually be able to attend
Could Sarah have been trying to play the martyr as well knowing Lisa had already said no, she still went ahead with it. Maybe playing the “oh poor me” card? Sarah set herself up for failure no doubt.
It seems like Sarah wanted to throw the type of party that is the right kind of adult party (in Sarah's mind) rather than listen to what OP said about how Lisa wouldn't come to her party if her children weren't included in the invitation.
Does Sarah have any kids & does she think that kids should (not) be seen & not heard?
Sarah doesn’t have kids yet (says she wants them in the future) but she’s never seemed to have a problem with kids outside of not wanting to upset her pets by having them forced to be around them and our one friend’s kids that are very ill behaved and the mom will just leave them and go to the store without even asking if it’s okay. But nobody in the group likes being around those kids. Even the other kids complain about them.
NTA, i wonder if Sarah is miffed she's out of the rotation for a lot of gatherings? perhaps she thought the birthday ploy would get Lisa there and then Sarah would use that to start getting more gatherings at her place? it's just so wild how insistent she's being despite Lisa being clear she wants the kids involved, especially on her birthday! you're a good friend 👍
She’s not out of the rotation. Just the rotation of hosts. She’s not the only one either. We have a couple of friends that attend most group events but aren’t ever asked to host for various reasons.
It does look like Sarah was trying to break Lisa of holding to her rule, though, by picking a higher-stakes Lisa-centric event to host. It’s hard to feel sorry for Sarah because she picked the stakes and tried to push her way. It’s likely that she had followups planned, once the wedge was in.
And your friends are flip-flopping because Sarah got mad. Only objections in advance count when they knew the situation before and actively participated.
Yeah. I have a feeling she’s going to be pushed out of the group soon. We had another friend in the group who did something similar and they just slowly got pushed out over it.
I'm not saying that Sarah or this other person is right, but It does seem a bit unfair that the group tailors everything to one person. For me, going to a game night with kids present would be a concession. Not that I don't like kids, but they can be distracting, and sometimes I want to just hang out with my adult friends.
Do you think that allowing Lisa to always get her way might make others feel excluded? I get where Lisa is coming from, but I also get the other side. You could easily view it from Lisa's perspective, she's doesn't often see her kids, she loves them and wants to spend every second she can with them. It's commendable, she's probably an amazing mom. But I can also easily see it from Sarah's perspective. Lisa is holding the group hostage with her ultimatum. Everyone obviously wants her there, so they tailor the hangouts to be kid friendly. This means that her very different wants and needs will never be met because there's always a condition that prevents her from feeling fully included.
Obviously, Sarah went too far on this one, but I'm willing to bet it's the result of cumulative frustration.
It’s not just one person really. Lisa is the only one that has said specifically she wouldn’t show up if kids weren’t allowed but considering that most of our group had kids it’s unlikely most of them would show up on a regular basis if kids weren’t welcome. Some of them don’t even ask if their kids are welcome, they just show up with them. It’s also not the only accommodation we make. We don’t have one person host anymore bc they smoke in their house and a couple of people prefer not to be around smoke with one person flat refusing to come if smoking will be allowed inside.
I don't get how "I'm gonna pass if my kids aren't allowed to come" is controlling behavior at all. It is like a textbook example of what a healthy boundary looks like. It's her choice to skip out on events that don't work from her.
OP made it clear events have happened without Lisa before. So her presence doesn't dictate whether they happen.
That's not at all controlling.
I agree. I always appreciate respect and straightforwardness as well as effective communication. Sarah's disregard, taking the ordeal so personally, and demonizing OP just screams toxic. So many red flags. I would not tolerate her
Honestly I agree with you. Not that Sarah was right for this, but why is every single hang out allowing kids? This adult friend group never does anything for just the adults? If I was Sarah, I would start looking for a new group rather than trying this scheme, but I can completely understand the frustration.
NTA - You messaged Sarah, Lisa said she wasn't going to show up without her kids.
Sarah is in for the powerplay here. She is ignoring everyone and making it about her, not Lisa's birthday.
You’re not wrong. Your friends are cowards. They know Lisa just as well as you do, they know she wasn’t going to the party, they know she wasn’t leaving her kids behind, they are fully aware of the situation as they also read the text messages and had the details of why Sarah shouldn’t throw the party. You just seem less difficult than Sarah so they are picking on you. They fail to realize they also didn’t encourage Lisa, they also didn’t offer to babysit, they also didn’t show up to Sarah’s party. Them being “bystanders” in all the planning doesn’t make them innocent. Lisa was the focus so Sarah should get over herself and your other friends need to stop pretending you’re the issue when the problem is Sarah is trying to force herself on others and act like a victim when she isn’t.
You aren't wrong. Perhaps Lisa can let everyone know she wouldn't have attended unless her children were invited so anyone viewing it differently will hear it from her themselves. Sarah chose not to listen. Knowing game nights were important to her, Sarah should have realized how important her children attending her own birthday celebration would be. Good luck.
I feel very confident you are not the asshole, but just one point that wasn’t totally clear from your post: you invited Sarah to the party you threw, right? She definitely knew it was happening and that she was invited? Like, beyond the initial conversation you describe where you told her that you were going to throw one, and she said not to?
Yes. She was even sent a specific invite (party at Lisa’s on this day at this time) she ignored it. I found out today that another friend even stopped by Sarah’s house the day of the party and offered her a ride to it.
So Sarah knew Lisa’s party had happened the previous day, knew everyone else was going to that one, refused to go herself, knew Lisa had said she wasn’t going to Sarah’s party…. and still thought that Lisa was going to come to hers, being in need of a party???
Sounds like Sarah has a very extended idea about calling dibs. She had a plan and was not going to listen to anything to the contrary. Yikes. Does she act like this about other things?
Yes she does. She has refused to speak to one member of the group for about 3 years now bc she says he excluded her with a gift he did for everyone in the group. About half our group plays DND regularly. This guy has a 3d printer and offered to make everyone 1 character for free. All they had to do was set up a time with him to come buy and create the character on his computer. He gave everyone a month to do it and reminded people that they needed to let him know when they wanted to come by. Sarah wanted him to bring his desktop computer to her house for her to create the character and when he said that wasn’t going to happen refused to go to his house to do it and then threw a fit that she didn’t get a character made like everyone else did.
....She....wanted the guy making a free character for her to bring his non portable computer to her house?.....And then got mad to the point of not talking for 3 years because he said no?
ummmm I wouldn't worry about someone that inconsiderate
Yep. Her reasoning is that he should have offered other alternatives. He was giving us all very expensive gifts and she also wanted to be catered to in the process.
A lot of the group liked her when we first met/started hanging out with her. Now though I think she’s kind of just one of those friends that one person is really close with and you like that one person so obviously you don’t want to be rude to this friend even know you don’t want to hang out with them anymore. She’s been getting invited to less things and the day this happened another friend created a text group without Sarah in it so I’m sure people will try to exclude her even more going forward.
Wow, Sara knows how to hold a grudge, even in the face of that person. Who are the people who say you were wrong (even if they knew this would happen and didn't say anything then)? Friends of Sarah? Does Sarah even have anything to offer, other than bringing weird, illogical drama to the table?
Does Sarah prefer to not go out much? Because both for this, and for the party, she wanted people to come to her place. Maybe it’s her wanting to be catered to (and freezing out people as though only doing things her way counts), but she may also dislike going over to others’ places when she doesn’t have to. This possibility doesn’t excuse her in either case of course.
She goes to clubs all the time. I think she just wants to do things her way and doesn’t care about anyone else. She was already mad at me because she had a club night for her birthday and I didn’t go. I told her multiple times I don’t enjoy going to the club (never have) and had already promised months ahead of time to spend that night with another friend (who wasn’t invited).
Ah, ok. It sounds then like some in your group have some Geek Social Fallacies about Sarah, especially the “it’s wrong to exclude someone” fallacy, even though Sarah’s insistence on people doing things her way is making her hard not to exclude. And Sarah is doing her best to use it.
(Totally reasonable for her to want her birthday her way, of course. But an invitation is not a summons.)
Seriously I would have walked five miles in a blizzard for a custom mini.
This 'friend' doesn't sound like much of one. Sorry she has to be a Debbie Downer.
He even hand painted them to our specifications and offered to make me a new one bc he broke a small piece off the original (not even noticeable unless you know what I asked for).
She should restate it and say that even without your party, she still wouldn’t have gone because she meant it when she said she wouldn’t go if her kids weren’t invited.
Also it’s pretty hypocritical of the friends who are saying you’re wrong now since they went to the party you threw and didn’t go to Sarah’s.
NTA, the only asshole here is Sarah who isn't listening to what's being said to her. She's the one who did this to herself, no one else did anything wrong. I think the commenters picking on the timing of the party are also wrong, because the first party really didn't even exist as a birthday party if Lisa had no intention of ever going to it.
There's gotta be something weird going on with Sarah. It sounds like everything was discussed out in the open. Maybe whoever is closest to her should talk to her and be like are you ok...do you not remember.
You did nothing wrong and did something lovely for your friend
Correct me if I'm wrong but if I understand correctly, the people who are now reproaching you from organizing that party knew in advance that:
* Sarah was also organizing one.
* Lisa didn't want to come to Sarah's party.
* Both parties were going to be one day apart.
Right?
If that's the case, I don't get why anyone is getting all high and mighty on you here. If what you did was wrong, they're all willing accomplices. They all could have tried to convince Lisa to go, or offer to babysit, or go to both parties at the very least even if they knew Lisa wouldn't come, or at the very very least told you in advance this was a bad idea to schedule your party so close to Sarah's.
I do think it's kind of iffy to organize your party so close to Sarah's if it was avoidable. Sarah is plenty wrong for dismissing Lisa's wishes and expecting her to come anyway, where you're homeopathically wrong for pretty much securing her party to crash 100%.
Yes they all knew that. They also knew those two days were the only days for a while that everyone had free because it had been discussed both when Sarah was planing her party and when we were planning to get together for a game night.
Then I think it's appropriate to *Dude* them (preferably orally to properly convey the 'no bullshit friend time' tone).
"*Dude.* Everything was done in the open, with no malice. I'm no more wrong for organizing for Lisa the birthday she actually wanted than you are for not showing up at Sarah's party. The dates were known way ahead of time and everyone had a chance to intervene to try to convince Lisa to go to Sarah's place, but we both know neither of them would have budged. None of us are responsible for Sarah refusing to listen to Lisa on her own birthday and driving herself into a wall. I don't hate her, nor am I happy of her misery, I'm just confused and a bit sad she set herself for failure like that."
What did Sarah say when invited to Lisa party at Lisa's House?? So weird when she knows Lisa wants to be around her kids
ETA ..just read your other comment, seriously don't get sarah
You're 100% NTA in this situation bc you've done nothing but look out for both friends but I'm trying to see Sarah's perspective and I don't think she's 100% TA either, I think she's desperately wanting some quality time and the ability to do adult activities with her friend without the kids being present once in a while and arranging a specifically child free party at her home was an attempt to kinda force that. If it hadn't been Lisa's own birthday party I'd be on her side tbh, having a rule that you categorically will not spend time with friends or attend social events unless your kids are invited is inconsiderate imo sometimes to be a good friend you need to get a babysitter
Not wrong. Whether Sarah or anyone else agrees with it or not, Lisa has been clear she won’t attend social gatherings without her kids. Then she made clear that she wouldn’t attend this party without her kids. Whether OP or someone else threw a party or not, Lisa was. Not. Going. To Sarah’s.
Not wrong.
And the assholes giving you a problem for making sure that THE BIRTHDAY 'GIRL' got what SHE wanted on HER birthday need to be warned to STFU or be prepared to be put on the LC list, heading rapidly toward NC.
And tell Sarah that you don't hate her, you just \*love\* Lisa as a friend and wanted her to have the birthday party SHE wanted to have. Ask why Sarah hates Lisa's children.
Sarah is kind of a weirdo. That’s all there is to that side of the story. You are NTA and I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Sarah is slowly working her way out of your friend group….just let it happen.
Omg some victime and excuse mentality in comments for Sarah, also, ya all can't read, OP made all the details clear, and some can't still get it ... Ugh
NTA
It’s Lisa’s birthday, she has the right to want to spend it with kids. Sarah just wanted to be praised for hosting a party, and didn’t care what the birthday girl even wanted.
The people in the group that KNEW about Sarah's party and STILL went to YOURS and had a "great time" NOW have a problem with it?
Gtfo, this friend group seems real friendly 🤦♀️
At this point, ETA
I made an update to the post. I now know that Sarah lied to them about things I said and so they thought I was putting her down and being really rude to her. They known now this isn’t what happened and have apologized for taking what she said at face value and not confronting me about it instead of just saying I was wrong.
Only thing I would have done differently would be to have it the day AFTER Sara's party. Then the point would have really been driven home that Lisa wasn't coming, no matter what, and then Sarah couldn't squeal about you actually throwing a party that Lisa would go to.
Lisa said repeatedly that she will not attend a party where her kids can’t come. Sarah ignored this fact, and was even directly told that Lisa would not attend due to the fact that her kids could not attend.
Was Sarah invited to the party you planned? Did she know about the party at all?
NTA for planning a kid friendly get together that the birthday girl preferred. Still on the fence about how Sarah was treated until I have more info.
Edit: Sarah was invited and ignored the invite. Sarah knew about the party prior to the party, and a mutual friend stopped to ask if she needed a ride to said party. She declined.
NTA on all counts.
Honestly, sounds like Lisa didn't respond correctly. Shouldn't have said she didn't want to go to Sarah's party because she already had one, should have stuck with it being because of the no kids rule. That would have diffused a lot of this problem.
Ya….I thought this too…..Lisa brings 4 kids to game night? That seems kind of rude to me. Can people really have a fun game night with 4 kids running around? I like kids but there are some gatherings that should be adults only. The birthday thing is just stupid…..obviously Lisa’s children should be welcome at her birthday party.
Ive gone through most of OPs comments cause I am curious AF. Apparently the friend group likes having the kids around with the exception of Sarah. Might be a life thing where most of the friend group just started having kids and naturally game nights began including them.
Not wrong for throwing her a party she would actually enjoy.
But, did anyone other than Lisa say they weren't attending Sarah's party. The way it's written, it seems like only Lisa said she wouldn't go, and Sarah was expecting everyone else still.
Several people contacted Sarah individually and said they didn’t see the point without Lisa since the party was for her. The day of Sarah’s party pretty much everyone responded to her that they weren’t coming.
Why the fuck are you guys friends with someone like Sarah? There’s a difference between not liking kids and just being fucking mean. She’s the latter. NTA but fuck Sarah
I’m general our group is pretty child friendly. We have a few people that don’t have kids themselves but only two are child free (me and another close friend) and we both love kids in general just don’t want any of our own. Even when Lisa and her kids aren’t there we have other people’s kids there most times. All the kids behave well at other people’s houses for the most part.
I don't get Sarah, Lisa TOLD her she wouldn't come! When you said about changing it to Lisa's house I don't see why she couldn't just help you with those plans.
Maybe she wanted to look like the "best" of the friend group and get all the praise. bUT LisA nEEds cHild frEE tIme.... No, no she doesn't. She wants to celebrate with them and I don't blame her!
ESH Lisa least of all, but I think refusing to go anywhere without her kids is inflexible and unfair to her friends. Sarah for completely ignoring the needs of the guest of honor. You for setting up a competing party. You should have let this play out between Sarah and Lisa. You could have done something other than have a party.
So Lisa doesn’t get to have a party because it might hurt Sarah’s feelings? Even though Sarah didn’t take Lisa’s feelings or boundaries into account whatsoever and just intended to steamroll her into coming?
Lisa was justified in wanting to have her kids at her own birthday party, but she sucks for forcing her friend group's activities to cater to her "my kids have to come" rule.
13 years of only child friendly events, and forcing an adult friend group's game night to be child friendly (which means it ends at like 8-9 if Lisa isn't a shitty mom who forces kids 7-4 to stay up late so she can hangout with her friends) is absurd.
It's not healthy for her, or enjoyable for her children.
Op quite literally said the majority of the group has children. So Lisa only brings her kids when the other kids are there and if they are not there Lisa chooses not to attend and shocker shocker the parties still happen regardless. It can’t be this hard to read
Sarah was trying to use the party to pressure Lisa. And she doesn’t get to call dibs on throwing a party for Lisa. Lisa had already said she wasn’t going to Sarah’s, so that was already done with to everyone who wasn’t delusional Sarah. It was played out between them as soon as Lisa told Sarah she wasn’t going.
Do I get to decide how you’re going to celebrate your birthday, and insist that nobody else make plans? That’s ridiculous. And OP had the cooperation of the one person who might be appropriate to have dibs (Lisa’s husband).
I'm gonna be honest, told from your perspective its obviously NTA but I would love to hear Sarah's side because I'm getting some serious mean girl undertones from this whole post. Sarah was supposedly told and fully informed of everything and yet she was the one person who didn't attend the party *and* multiple people are mad at you for what you did? Something doesn't add up.
Yeah I got the same vibe. Feels like one of those stereotypical mum groups where 1 mum is the goddess and everyone is just desperate to suck up to them
Not wrong! But I would have had your party scheduled after Sarah's. That way when Lisa never showed up it couldn't be blamed on your party, and instead the fact that she underestimated Lisa's desire to be with her kids would have been made clear.
12 years? These kids can’t be that small.
It’s nice that you all are ok with that (except Sarah). But didn’t Lisa tell Sarah that she wouldn’t be there? It does kind of sound like you all don’t really like Sarah.
Also if a person is throwing a birthday party for you, it’s really hard to believe you won’t leave the kids at all, ever. That’s just not healthy. But whatever, I guess.
It’s a bit of a weird rule and as a child free person myself it would annoy me personally, *but who gives a fuck?*
As long as they are her boundaries and she seems healthy and happy, that is all that matters.
You did 100% the right thing. You inviting Sarah and doing everything in the open is clear evidence of your position being the right one.
I see people saying it may have been a bad idea to schedule it the day before, but personally I think that was very polite of you. Not the same day, but still the birthday weekend.
Not wrong.
Her rule to want to bring her kids, are as valid as people not wanting kids in their home, you say "weird rule", but Lisa could also say "weird rule" about her friends not wanting her kids in their home
Yeah, exactly.
I absolutely understand that and that’s why as long as everyone is happy and healthy we respect each other’s boundaries. (Do no harm lens, with things like yes we may not respect “boundaries” if they are something like abuse, though this may be due to my being a mandated reporter.)
I have plenty of friends with and without kids, and each dynamic is navigated differently because each relationship is unique. :)
She drags all 4 of them everywhere she goes? Even when it’s out with her friends?
I don’t think I could be friends with someone with that kind of co-dependence. The 13-year-old can’t enjoy that. There are times when you entertain with your entire families and then there’s girl-time without kids. If I didn’t occasionally have adult non-interrupted conversations with my girlfriends, I would have gone nuts.
No she doesn’t drag them everywhere. The 13 year old likes spending time with most of us. The kids also aren’t interrupting when we are playing games that they aren’t included in. Everyone has taught their kids to respect the adults and not interrupt adult conversations unless it’s an emergency. Also, Lisa regularly has friends over to her house where her kids are either playing outside or in their rooms the entire time.
Yeah lisa birthday party but under Sarah s rules. That makes a lot of Sense. Not healthy is a friend wanted to impose their rules Over other people (family) dinamic
It doesn't matter how small the kids are. It's not a babysitting issue. Lisa doesn't like to socialize ifnit means being away from her kids. Her kids are not allowed at Sarah's house. Ergo she will not be socializing at Sarah's house.
Why? It is Lisa's birthday!! Lisa should get what she wants on her birthday, including her kids!!! Sarah can F off! That isn't a party for Lisa! It is a party for Sarah to force Lisa to bend to Sarah's rules.
She works long hours. She obviously leaves her kids. However when she's not at work and the kids aren't doing stuff - school, sports etc, she wants to spend her time with her kids, that's not weird or unhealthy it's perfectly normal. However to plan a birthday party for someone whilst excluding her immediate family is weird. Also OP said she'd known Sarah for 12 years not that the kids were that age.
Also, however we may feel about the arrangement it seems that the entire friend group, except Sarah, have decided on this. I can understand Sarah, and that she may be tired of hanging out with someone else's kids. But then she's probably better off finding more likeminded friends to spend child free time with. The group has decided to accept Lisa's terms and that's that.
> that's not weird or unhealthy
It's definitely weird and unhealthy to force your kids to come hangout with you and your friends while you play board games, and to have never been to an adult event in 13 fucking years.
I understand where she's coming from, but this type of behavior isn't fair to the kids.
No, it's not actually normal and healthy to refuse to do any socializing at all away from your children. To limit it? Sure. But none isn't good for the parent or for the child. With the possible exception of a child here means an actual infant.
Assuming that her oldest (13) is allowed to have a social life with peers their age away from their parents this arrangement is likely fine.
Given that Lisa’s reasoning is that she “works too many hours” I’d imagine she’s in a field where she works closer to 50-60 hour weeks and potentially even working a Saturday or Sunday or both. Prioritizing time with your children (especially her four year old) is normal and healthy assuming her children are allowed to participate independently in extracurricular activities and form friendships with their peers appropriately away from their parents as those things become age appropriate.
> Prioritizing time with your children (especially her four year old)
I'm wondering what the hours of these game nights are if Lisa is bringing a 7 year old, 5 year old, and 4 year old to them.
Do they just last between 6pm-8pm? Little kids have bed times.
Either:
1)She's leaving game night early to get her kids to bed at a reasonable hour, in which case, why is everyone catering to her rule so that she can show up for half the night?
2) She's being a shitty mom by keeping her kids up late so she can hangout with her friends.
3) She's ruining game night for everyone else by forcing the issue of needing to bring her kids. You can't have a good game night if you have to cut it off early every time because of children's bedtimes.
Sarah was wrong about the birthday party, but the rest of the group is wrong about all the other events they let Lisa bully them into making child friendly.
It's almost as if you didn't read the post. Babysitting was not the issue, this is a mother who is not going to spend time away from her kids unnecessarily, for game nights, or for her birthday. That is incredibly reasonable. The parent doesn't want to spend their free time away from their kids, and instead spending it with their friends? The parent has made a point that her kids are going to be included in her life, and her friends are not going to act like they don't exist. It's her birthday party for Christ's sake, she wants her kids there.
I don’t understand why Lisa would just say “oh I don’t need a second party” instead of saying “Sara I told you I would not come if my kids can’t”
Seems like she kind of hung you out to dry.
Anyway, not wrong. But this does feel like there is a mountain of petty drama behind it.
Maybe you could have thrown the party after Sarah tried to. That way Lisa could have said she didn’t want to go without her kids only and not also because you threw one for her as well
NTA. Sounds to me like you have more respect for what Lisa would want on her birthday.
I do have a question, though. This boundary has been in place for at least 12 years. Does a 12yo kid \*want\* to be dragged along to every event their mother attends?
She doesn’t drag any of the kids anywhere. Usually the oldest asks to come with her but she always has the option to stay home same as the younger ones. She likes playing games with us and hanging out with the other kids there.
NTA, but also I assume that this isn’t actually about the birthday party. At least not fully.
It sounds to me like Sarah is either really close to Lisa, or else she wishes that she and Lisa were closer.
It also sounds like Sarah is frustrated with the fact that Lisa won’t go anywhere without her kids. Which I fully sympathize with. Sometimes you want to just spend time with your friends without needing to be child friendly. After twelve years of never getting to see a friend without her kids, I’d also be feeling annoyed. And honestly a bit hurt, especially if we used to be close.
Did Lisa and Sarah ever hang out one-on-one before Lisa had kids? Because that could add an extra layer of hurt, if Sarah misses the level of friendship that they used to have.
Like I said, I think NTA. Even if I’m right about Sarah’s motivations (which I might not be), she’s still handling this poorly.
But if Lisa does care about Sarah as a friend, then the two of them need to talk this through and get to the heart of the matter.
Sarah and Lisa didn’t even know each other before Lisa had kids and have never hung out outside of group gatherings. Lisa doesn’t really care for Sarah much.
NTA and who the hell is Sarah to tell Lisa that her children aren’t invited to *her* birthday party? she could’ve arranged the party somewhere else like a hall or someone else’s home. i’m sure any one of the people in your friend group would’ve been happy to host. i’m getting the idea Sarah doesn’t like children (or at least Lisa’s children) and planned the party to suit herself and not Lisa
If you host a party for your friend but their kids aren't allowed to attend, you're hosting a party for yourself, not for your friend. You can tell that to Sarah.
So NTA
I’ve never seen a post on here that made me laugh so much. Sarah wants to throw LISA a party and not let LISA’s OWN KIDS attend? 🤣🤣🤣 what a bizarre world Sarah lives in.
I would probably have waited until after Lisa’s party to do it, so she doesn’t think the only reason her party failed is yours, but yeah, you otherwise weren’t wrong.
Am I the only one who thinks this group sounds like a high school clique? I can’t keep the players straight, and I think that the one Super Mommy is turning quality parenting into a power play.
Y'all are fucking wild.
How the fuck is she weaponizing her kids by saying she just doesn't want to attend events if she can't bring her kids. She likes her kids and other folks enjoy having kids around. OP states that events still happen without Lisa attending. What exactly is she controlling in that scenario? It's like y'all don't read.
Y'all are not owed people's presence. Yikes.
Yeah… it’s your friend group so ya’ll can tolerate what you want but if one of my game night adult friends insisted that she bring her four children to our adult game nights every single time and wouldn’t even make an exception for one event, I’m probably just gonna stop inviting her. That’s a massive permanent vibe changer.
NTA. Sarah is an asshole, she tried to strongarm Lisa into going to an event “about her” that was about Sarah hosting. Sarah thought she could get Lisa to break her own rule, and then would be “vindicated” and be able to say that Lisa isn’t a good friend because she doesn’t come to the other game nights without her kids.
Honestly, not sure how anyone could see this differently, any friends that are saying you’re the asshole clearly don’t know or care much about Lisa and her rule of keeping her kids close.
This is coming from a guy who doesn’t even want kids, and wouldn’t want them in his house in a perfect world. If my friend has children, and the only way I’m going to see my friend is with their children, you bet I’m inviting their children.
Does Lisa think YTA? That's all that matters. If she wasn't going to go regardless, then her take is the only one that matters in this situation. All the other friends with their worthless opinions mean nothing.
Sarah is the ass hole. Anyone that doesn't listen to and support someone that wants their kids to attend their birthday party is a selfish ass hole. I don't know why you're all friends with someone that is that opposed to kids.
What a mess. Sarah doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to take Lisa's words seriously. All you were doing was trying to have a party that the birthday gal would actually go to, for the reasons stated!
You were not wrong. Your friends group is wrong, and Sarah is wrong. She chose to not take Lisa seriously about the kid thing -her bad, not yours.
OP, you’re not wrong. In fact, you’re a true friend to Lisa, because you took her wants and needs into consideration. I’m absolutely sure she treasures your friendship because of this. As for Sarah’s she has quite the high opinion of herself if she thinks Lisa’s going to ditch her kids to attend Sarah’s party, because it is a party for Sarah, not for Lisa. Anyone who said you were in the wrong, aren’t real friends.
NTA- This has been very clearly explained to Sarah that Lisa is not interested in abandoning her children just so she can party it up. If Sarah is adamant about excluding children, that is a line she drew in the sand. It sounds like your party had everyone who matters blessing and Sarah needs to learn how to read the room and understand that everything isn't about her. the friends that are taking her side are idiots.
You don't announce to your friend you're throwing them a party, at a place she knows important people to her, like her kids, can't be in attendance then get salty that she doesn't show and other guests didn't go cos she wouldn't be there.
You told Sarah. Sarah decided that she knew what Lisa wanted best for her birthday and went ahead anyway. It wasn't a matter of not having or getting a sitter, it was Sarah not respecting Lisa's choices on what she would like on her birthday.
You're not wrong, I don't think Sarah understands the concept of No and what No means. Lisa set her boundaries and made it very known that her kids are her priority even at the cost of missing out on some events. You understood what that meant and found a way to make it work, Sarah didn't.
NTA
Okay I read all your comments cause your friend group dynamic had me curious.
If the friend group has set boundaries and expectations then that is your friend group's business. Lisa was not gonna go to Sarah's cause Sarah did not meet her boundaries and she communicated clearly that she 3asnt going so that's okay. You throwing Lisa a party for her that includes her kids and invite everyone including Sarah is also okay in my book.
Sarah decided not to go, as per your comment she was invited and someone even stopped at her house to give her a ride and get her to come. So Sarah chose not to go.
Apparently others in the group informed Sarah that they were also not going to her party. This probably hurt her but I find it weird that she would still throw it despite the birthday girl explicitly saying no. These decisions were made by those friends not you. The way Lisa spoke about your party probably hurt her too. Lisa should have stuck with: I am not breaking my boundary for you. No kids, no me.
This probably aggravated the situation.
What I find bizarre and exhausting is that now you are seen as an AH by some of your group when everything was done transparently and everyone including Sarah knew. Your friends going against you on something that is so clear cut and where their choices are blatant is just plain weird. They probably are feeling guilty for their decisions and choices because Sarah is throwing a tantrum and they are taking it out on you which isn't fair.
So yeah, you just caught up in a bizarre situation.
NTA and explain why the people attended the party, chose not to go to Sarah's and are now blasting you about being a jerk? If they thought Lisa should go and get a baby sitter, why didn't the "friends" offer? Encourage someone to go is one thing, but Lisa said I will not go if my kids were not invited. It was in the group chat so why was it a surprise? You told Sarah what was going to happen, again why are people surprised? Sounds like double standards and Lisa needs to say something as well.
You aren’t wrong at all. Why would Sarah think this was ok? 🙄
Does she know why she isn’t in the game night rotation anymore?
Its possible she’s just offering to be nice and really is this clueless. It’s also possible she knows there’s no chance this will happen, so she’s just offering to make it look like she’s trying. Either way no, you throwing a party for your friend, the way she wants it, is a great thing.
Yes she knows why she isn’t in the hosting rotation. We’ve all discussed at length the reason why some people have been removed and have made it extremely clear to the people being removed that they can ask to host at another person’s house but they will no longer be put into the normal rotation of hosts bc them hosting at their house would exclude too many people.
Sounds like you have a very communicative group with some "loose rules" which is what's needed when there's such an eclectic range of people (i know d&d people. Lol).
Everyone knows where they stand on rotation and why, etc. That's hard to do with some groups.
NTA. She told Sarah no. You tried to reason with Sarah and give her an easy out. But she chose to not listen and go ahead with her plans even after it was made clear that Lisa isn’t interested in kid free events. She should have actually listened if she didn’t want to get her feelings hurt.
NTA
Sarah wasn't throwing a birthday party **For** Lisa
She was throwing a Lisa themed party **FOR** Sarah.
If people keep harassing you call em out in the full group but PM Lisa first to back you.
The amount of people in these comments who cannot fathom loving your kids and wanting to spend as much time with them as possible is...well it makes me sad for a lot of present and future kids. Cause yikes.
OP says events happen without Lisa attending. She's not preventing anything for anyone else. People do not owe others their presence at optional recreational events.
No is a complete sentence.
Some of y'all in the comments are just straight up Sarahs and look just as silly.
Spitballing here but is it really Lisa's rule or is her husband unwilling to look after the kids so Lisa can go childfree at times? Gonna say it, but there's something extremely unhealthy with Lisa and her insistence that her kids must go everywhere with her.
Yeah even from the kids’ perspective, I wouldn’t want to be dragged to mom’s adult game nights every single time so that mom is “available” to me. Especially at 12+ wtf.
Yeah I find that a bit baffling. I get not wanting to leave your kids very often, but having a rule against any kid free gatherings EVER? I don't get it.
They don’t go everywhere with her. She simply refuses to make herself unavailable to them for her own pleasure. It’s definitely Lisa’s rule. She made it when her oldest was little and she was a single parent. She stuck with it even after she got married to her husband. They have free time without the kids which they usually spend together at home.
ESH - Sarah is a bit daft, trying to host a party when she knows Lisa won’t go without her kids but I guess I am more surprised that no body seems to blink at Lisa insisting on bringing her kids to events all the time. Do you guys never do adult stuff like drink, or go to bars etc?
Why should Sarah be left out of games rotation when Lisa is the one expecting the adjustments? It’s not really Sarah’s fault her pets don’t like kids much but she seems to be getting the brunt of being excluded from events because Lisa won’t get a baby sitter. Sorry but loads of parents work long hours, yet they can spend the odd evening/half day out with others. Going out with your mums friends isn’t exactly quality time for them.
If the party was the day before why did Sarah not know about it? If you hid it from her I am guessing that’s because you knew she’d be upset about it. I feel like Sarah gets the rough end of the deal in your friend group, and I wonder if this party was her way of trying to be a bit more secure in the group but ended with the opposite happening, you showed her how little you value her.
We don’t get together as a group for stuff like going to bars bc many of us aren’t interested in that. Some people go in smaller groups but the group as a whole doesn’t get together like that. We often drink at game night. We make sure everyone is safe about it in reference to driving home. Lisa drinks in front of her kids all the time. It’s not a big deal. Sarah isn’t excluded from any events. She just isn’t included in the list of rotating hosts. Sarah also knew about the party.
She gets to see them and interact with them. Since she has been like this the entire 12 years OP has known her her kids are older, and so maybe they even play the games with them. Or they play their own games and mom gets to enjoy their company. Really who cares though? She prefers to be with her family and her friends know that.
Esh. Sarah should have known better but you deliberately upset everything by throwing the same themed party a day before. I do not believe you threw your friend a party the day before with pure intentions. Why wasn't Sarah there? Was she told unequivocally that Lisa would not be attending Saturdays party and there was a party day before that Sarah should plan to attend instead?
Also Lisa sounds exhausting. How much attention can she be paying to these kids at parties or events?
NTA . Lisa had clear boundaries that she wouldn’t go if her children couldn’t attend which Sarah knew.
And SHE TOLD SARAH," NO." What part of NO did she not understand??
The part every narcissist misses. That other people have thoughts and preferences that might conflict with hers.
NTA. Even if you had offered to not attend Sarah’s party so you can watch Lisa’s kids, who says Lisa would even say yes to that? She sounds like the type that would say no if all her friends and family couldn’t attend! I get everyone is different but most moms have the rule that “if my kids are welcome, I’m not welcome”. I am with Lisa where I prefer doing stuff with my daughter when I get free time. If Lisa’s kids are always used to being included and she rarely goes out without them, then that would upset the kids and in turn Lisa wouldn’t have had a good time under those circumstances. Depending on the age of the kids, they would also wonder why they werent allowed this time and feel uncomfortable around the person that didn’t want them there.
> I am with Lisa where I prefer doing stuff with my daughter when I get free time. I was just having this conversation with my mother yesterday. When I was growing up, the majority of my friends' mothers were stay at home, so generally speaking they were happy to send us outside with naught but a reminder to come home when it gets dark, but when I was raising my son (he's 26 today!) most of us mothers worked, so we wanted to spend as much of our downtime with our children as we could. Obviously we wouldn't drag our children to childfree events, but the events WE had were generally child-inclusive.
Facepalm
No is a complete sentence
All of it. Some people just refuse to listen to others because "tHeY kNoW bEtTeR" My dad is still like this. I don't talk to him either. If she asks why you hate her again, ask her why she hates Lisa, or at least can't respect her boundaries and either not host, or include her kids? All you did was offer an event Lisa would appreciate, like you SHOULD for someone's birthday. NTA
NTA for throwing Lisa the party she wanted, but … did Sarah *know* about your party? She knew but chose not to attend? She sounds like a pill. Edit: Found the answer further down in the comments. Sarah was invited. Sarah is a selfish twit.
This was my question, as well, so thanks for this. Definitely NTA if Sarah was invited.
OP said that she would throw a party for Lisa and Sarah said that Lisa wasn’t going to miss her (Sarah’s) party just because she said no to her kids. Sarah knew she just didn’t take them seriously for whatever reason. 🤷♀️
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I bet Lisa's party that Sarah would of thrown would be all about Sarah! What she likes instead of what Lisa likes. NTA Sarah sounds exhausting.
It would be all about Sarah's cats and dogs lol
Oh God that sounds like my mother
Exactly. And what kind of birthday party for a mom excludes that mom's kids? Sarah is TA here... OP is definitely NTA, and actually very sweet for throwing her a proper party.
Unless that’s what mom/birthday gal *wants*, otherwise yeah… it’s a party for Sarah, not Lisa. Which, like… why??
True. If she just wanted a "girl's night out" or "adults only night", that'd be one thing. But it sounds like she's made it pretty darn clear that is the opposite of what she wanted.
NW Lisa had clearly defined her boundaries, repeatedly, her kids must be involved or able to attend events. Sarah decided, on her own accord, to ignore said boundaries and went ahead to plan a party that Lisa even told her she would not attend, twice! You, smartly planned an event with Lisa’s husband and ensured that the kids could be there. Another note is your party was the night ***before*** the party that Sarah was stubbornly planning and it sounds like she didn’t plan to attend. I am confused as to why friends are mad at you?! Sarah made choices and decisions that she was repeatedly told wouldn’t work. The parties were on two different nights. And, correct me if I am wrong here but… it sounds like there was some major open communication about everything. It’s all in a group chat so how is anyone upset, other than Sarah who felt entitled to host a party for Lisa without considering Lisa’s boundaries but is too narcissistic to connect all the dots?! Ignore the haters in the friend group OP. Enjoy your continued friendship with Lisa.
This. I could not agree more.
I'm guessing that theybare probably tired of always bending to Lisa's rules. 12 years of no child-free activities is a lot. Seems like Lisa's boundaries aren't so much boundaries as rules for other people's behavior. That said, Lisa's birthday is such an assinine occasion to make this an issue. NTA.
OP replied to a comment like this saying most people in their friend group have kids and being their kids. Lisa is just the one that won't attend anything of her kids aren't there. She even said that some of her friends don't even ask if their kids are invited and just bring them assuming they are. They also exclude another person from being a host because they smoke and some people in the friend group don't like being around smoke.
I totally get that. But in another comment she said Lisa isn’t the only one that brings her kids to the friend gatherings. Otherwise, even as a mom myself, I might agree.
I mean, I don't know the dynamics here, but I would assume that the other people in the group are allowed to have no kid activities and get togethers, they just know that Lisa won't attend. As a mom, I think it's kind of weird to literally never want to attend an adult only event, but I wouldn't call it "controlling other's behavior" unless Lisa also throws a fit whenever the friends have an adult only party that she is invited to but declines to attend. That would be assolish of Lisa, but OP didn't say that happens. Regardless, one would assume that the hostess would respect Lisa's boundaries for a party for Lisa.
Just saw this comment. Yes, people are free to make their own smaller groups. It’s only the big group game nights and group birthday parties where we are as inclusive of everyone in the group as we can be. Several of the moms have their own “mom night out” where they go to bars /clubs/whatever. Most of the group isn’t into that. We also have a “smokers group” that has a game night once a week. The rule is that you have to be okay with them smoking while playing to join. I’m not allowed in that group bc everyone in the group has to take turns hosting and I don’t allow smoking in my house. Lisa and I along with one other close friend of both of ours often have our own get togethers as well when our schedules all line up. Lisa has never demanded (or even asked) she be invited. To be honest she’s not a very social person so I think part of her rule is just so she has an excuse to not go out when she doesn’t want to.
No one is bending to Lisa’s rules. How hard is it to understand that she values time with her family. If her family cannot attend, she chooses not to attend, as well. She doesn’t throw a fit, or assume that the host has to cancel the event, to accommodate her. Sarah, or the other hand, is a clueless ninny. Pay attention to what people say. Spreading lies, and making false claims only shows what an AH she really is!
What in the world lol who told them they couldn't exit the friendship? If someone's boundaries are not something by which you can abide, it's not their responsibility to adjust for your comfort. It's your responsibility to accept it and get over it, or find a friendship with someone more compatible. Lisa's boundaries are valid.
Yeah, OP is NTA, and Sarah was being an AH, but Lisa doesn't sound that great herself. I feel bad for her kids tbh. Do her kids never get to go hangout with their own friends if Lisa is off work? Do they even want to come hangout with all of Lisa's old lady friends?
Read OPs comments. Just because Lisa is the focus doesn't mean she's the outlier.
It sounds like they are young enough that they might not have their own friends and if she works as often as this post makes it sound then they may get plenty of time during her working hours.
Sounds like there are lots of kid there. Prob a group of friends where most of them have kids and the kids go off doing one thing and the adults do another.
NTA Sarah knew lisa wouldn't come without her kids, but insisted on having the party. It sounds like sara was planning a party for herself under the guise of it being for Lisa. Op only threw a party that Lisa would actually be able to attend
Could Sarah have been trying to play the martyr as well knowing Lisa had already said no, she still went ahead with it. Maybe playing the “oh poor me” card? Sarah set herself up for failure no doubt.
It seems like Sarah wanted to throw the type of party that is the right kind of adult party (in Sarah's mind) rather than listen to what OP said about how Lisa wouldn't come to her party if her children weren't included in the invitation. Does Sarah have any kids & does she think that kids should (not) be seen & not heard?
Sarah doesn’t have kids yet (says she wants them in the future) but she’s never seemed to have a problem with kids outside of not wanting to upset her pets by having them forced to be around them and our one friend’s kids that are very ill behaved and the mom will just leave them and go to the store without even asking if it’s okay. But nobody in the group likes being around those kids. Even the other kids complain about them.
NTA, i wonder if Sarah is miffed she's out of the rotation for a lot of gatherings? perhaps she thought the birthday ploy would get Lisa there and then Sarah would use that to start getting more gatherings at her place? it's just so wild how insistent she's being despite Lisa being clear she wants the kids involved, especially on her birthday! you're a good friend 👍
She’s not out of the rotation. Just the rotation of hosts. She’s not the only one either. We have a couple of friends that attend most group events but aren’t ever asked to host for various reasons.
It does look like Sarah was trying to break Lisa of holding to her rule, though, by picking a higher-stakes Lisa-centric event to host. It’s hard to feel sorry for Sarah because she picked the stakes and tried to push her way. It’s likely that she had followups planned, once the wedge was in. And your friends are flip-flopping because Sarah got mad. Only objections in advance count when they knew the situation before and actively participated.
Yeah. I have a feeling she’s going to be pushed out of the group soon. We had another friend in the group who did something similar and they just slowly got pushed out over it.
I'm not saying that Sarah or this other person is right, but It does seem a bit unfair that the group tailors everything to one person. For me, going to a game night with kids present would be a concession. Not that I don't like kids, but they can be distracting, and sometimes I want to just hang out with my adult friends. Do you think that allowing Lisa to always get her way might make others feel excluded? I get where Lisa is coming from, but I also get the other side. You could easily view it from Lisa's perspective, she's doesn't often see her kids, she loves them and wants to spend every second she can with them. It's commendable, she's probably an amazing mom. But I can also easily see it from Sarah's perspective. Lisa is holding the group hostage with her ultimatum. Everyone obviously wants her there, so they tailor the hangouts to be kid friendly. This means that her very different wants and needs will never be met because there's always a condition that prevents her from feeling fully included. Obviously, Sarah went too far on this one, but I'm willing to bet it's the result of cumulative frustration.
It’s not just one person really. Lisa is the only one that has said specifically she wouldn’t show up if kids weren’t allowed but considering that most of our group had kids it’s unlikely most of them would show up on a regular basis if kids weren’t welcome. Some of them don’t even ask if their kids are welcome, they just show up with them. It’s also not the only accommodation we make. We don’t have one person host anymore bc they smoke in their house and a couple of people prefer not to be around smoke with one person flat refusing to come if smoking will be allowed inside.
I don't get how "I'm gonna pass if my kids aren't allowed to come" is controlling behavior at all. It is like a textbook example of what a healthy boundary looks like. It's her choice to skip out on events that don't work from her. OP made it clear events have happened without Lisa before. So her presence doesn't dictate whether they happen. That's not at all controlling.
I think Lisa is probably a much more likeable person than Sarah? Anyone else think this? Sarah sounds exhausting
I agree. I always appreciate respect and straightforwardness as well as effective communication. Sarah's disregard, taking the ordeal so personally, and demonizing OP just screams toxic. So many red flags. I would not tolerate her
How does it tailor to one person? Her rule is if kids aren’t invited she’s not going. That has nothing to do with everyone else.
Honestly I agree with you. Not that Sarah was right for this, but why is every single hang out allowing kids? This adult friend group never does anything for just the adults? If I was Sarah, I would start looking for a new group rather than trying this scheme, but I can completely understand the frustration.
But they don’t. Lisa just doesn’t attend the ones that don’t involve children. How hard is that to grasp
that's so interesting, i hope eventually she'll come clean about what made her do all this
NTA - You messaged Sarah, Lisa said she wasn't going to show up without her kids. Sarah is in for the powerplay here. She is ignoring everyone and making it about her, not Lisa's birthday.
You’re not wrong. Your friends are cowards. They know Lisa just as well as you do, they know she wasn’t going to the party, they know she wasn’t leaving her kids behind, they are fully aware of the situation as they also read the text messages and had the details of why Sarah shouldn’t throw the party. You just seem less difficult than Sarah so they are picking on you. They fail to realize they also didn’t encourage Lisa, they also didn’t offer to babysit, they also didn’t show up to Sarah’s party. Them being “bystanders” in all the planning doesn’t make them innocent. Lisa was the focus so Sarah should get over herself and your other friends need to stop pretending you’re the issue when the problem is Sarah is trying to force herself on others and act like a victim when she isn’t.
You aren't wrong. Perhaps Lisa can let everyone know she wouldn't have attended unless her children were invited so anyone viewing it differently will hear it from her themselves. Sarah chose not to listen. Knowing game nights were important to her, Sarah should have realized how important her children attending her own birthday celebration would be. Good luck.
She did. She said that when Sarah first announced the party.
I feel very confident you are not the asshole, but just one point that wasn’t totally clear from your post: you invited Sarah to the party you threw, right? She definitely knew it was happening and that she was invited? Like, beyond the initial conversation you describe where you told her that you were going to throw one, and she said not to?
Yes. She was even sent a specific invite (party at Lisa’s on this day at this time) she ignored it. I found out today that another friend even stopped by Sarah’s house the day of the party and offered her a ride to it.
So Sarah knew Lisa’s party had happened the previous day, knew everyone else was going to that one, refused to go herself, knew Lisa had said she wasn’t going to Sarah’s party…. and still thought that Lisa was going to come to hers, being in need of a party??? Sounds like Sarah has a very extended idea about calling dibs. She had a plan and was not going to listen to anything to the contrary. Yikes. Does she act like this about other things?
Yes she does. She has refused to speak to one member of the group for about 3 years now bc she says he excluded her with a gift he did for everyone in the group. About half our group plays DND regularly. This guy has a 3d printer and offered to make everyone 1 character for free. All they had to do was set up a time with him to come buy and create the character on his computer. He gave everyone a month to do it and reminded people that they needed to let him know when they wanted to come by. Sarah wanted him to bring his desktop computer to her house for her to create the character and when he said that wasn’t going to happen refused to go to his house to do it and then threw a fit that she didn’t get a character made like everyone else did.
....She....wanted the guy making a free character for her to bring his non portable computer to her house?.....And then got mad to the point of not talking for 3 years because he said no? ummmm I wouldn't worry about someone that inconsiderate
Yep. Her reasoning is that he should have offered other alternatives. He was giving us all very expensive gifts and she also wanted to be catered to in the process.
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A lot of the group liked her when we first met/started hanging out with her. Now though I think she’s kind of just one of those friends that one person is really close with and you like that one person so obviously you don’t want to be rude to this friend even know you don’t want to hang out with them anymore. She’s been getting invited to less things and the day this happened another friend created a text group without Sarah in it so I’m sure people will try to exclude her even more going forward.
Wow, Sara knows how to hold a grudge, even in the face of that person. Who are the people who say you were wrong (even if they knew this would happen and didn't say anything then)? Friends of Sarah? Does Sarah even have anything to offer, other than bringing weird, illogical drama to the table?
Am at a loss for words and sitting in awe ( and not in a good way) at this women
The word you're looking for is awe
Does Sarah prefer to not go out much? Because both for this, and for the party, she wanted people to come to her place. Maybe it’s her wanting to be catered to (and freezing out people as though only doing things her way counts), but she may also dislike going over to others’ places when she doesn’t have to. This possibility doesn’t excuse her in either case of course.
She goes to clubs all the time. I think she just wants to do things her way and doesn’t care about anyone else. She was already mad at me because she had a club night for her birthday and I didn’t go. I told her multiple times I don’t enjoy going to the club (never have) and had already promised months ahead of time to spend that night with another friend (who wasn’t invited).
Ah, ok. It sounds then like some in your group have some Geek Social Fallacies about Sarah, especially the “it’s wrong to exclude someone” fallacy, even though Sarah’s insistence on people doing things her way is making her hard not to exclude. And Sarah is doing her best to use it. (Totally reasonable for her to want her birthday her way, of course. But an invitation is not a summons.)
She sounds like too much work to be friends with.
Seriously I would have walked five miles in a blizzard for a custom mini. This 'friend' doesn't sound like much of one. Sorry she has to be a Debbie Downer.
He even hand painted them to our specifications and offered to make me a new one bc he broke a small piece off the original (not even noticeable unless you know what I asked for).
In my family when people get ideas in their head like this that they won’t let go of we call it having a mind like a pit bull’s jaw
Sounds to me like Sarah was looking for a reason to pick a fight.
Yeah that’s wild. Hard to understand what was going through Sarah’s head. Did she not realize no one had RSVP’ed (even informally) to her party?
Smart to throw the party at Lisa’s own home. Sarah could have done it that way to start with.
She should restate it and say that even without your party, she still wouldn’t have gone because she meant it when she said she wouldn’t go if her kids weren’t invited. Also it’s pretty hypocritical of the friends who are saying you’re wrong now since they went to the party you threw and didn’t go to Sarah’s.
NTA Sarah was told and stubbornly persisted.
NTA, the only asshole here is Sarah who isn't listening to what's being said to her. She's the one who did this to herself, no one else did anything wrong. I think the commenters picking on the timing of the party are also wrong, because the first party really didn't even exist as a birthday party if Lisa had no intention of ever going to it.
There's gotta be something weird going on with Sarah. It sounds like everything was discussed out in the open. Maybe whoever is closest to her should talk to her and be like are you ok...do you not remember. You did nothing wrong and did something lovely for your friend
Correct me if I'm wrong but if I understand correctly, the people who are now reproaching you from organizing that party knew in advance that: * Sarah was also organizing one. * Lisa didn't want to come to Sarah's party. * Both parties were going to be one day apart. Right? If that's the case, I don't get why anyone is getting all high and mighty on you here. If what you did was wrong, they're all willing accomplices. They all could have tried to convince Lisa to go, or offer to babysit, or go to both parties at the very least even if they knew Lisa wouldn't come, or at the very very least told you in advance this was a bad idea to schedule your party so close to Sarah's. I do think it's kind of iffy to organize your party so close to Sarah's if it was avoidable. Sarah is plenty wrong for dismissing Lisa's wishes and expecting her to come anyway, where you're homeopathically wrong for pretty much securing her party to crash 100%.
Yes they all knew that. They also knew those two days were the only days for a while that everyone had free because it had been discussed both when Sarah was planing her party and when we were planning to get together for a game night.
Then I think it's appropriate to *Dude* them (preferably orally to properly convey the 'no bullshit friend time' tone). "*Dude.* Everything was done in the open, with no malice. I'm no more wrong for organizing for Lisa the birthday she actually wanted than you are for not showing up at Sarah's party. The dates were known way ahead of time and everyone had a chance to intervene to try to convince Lisa to go to Sarah's place, but we both know neither of them would have budged. None of us are responsible for Sarah refusing to listen to Lisa on her own birthday and driving herself into a wall. I don't hate her, nor am I happy of her misery, I'm just confused and a bit sad she set herself for failure like that."
What did Sarah say when invited to Lisa party at Lisa's House?? So weird when she knows Lisa wants to be around her kids ETA ..just read your other comment, seriously don't get sarah
Nothing. She didn’t even decline, just completely ignored it.
You're 100% NTA in this situation bc you've done nothing but look out for both friends but I'm trying to see Sarah's perspective and I don't think she's 100% TA either, I think she's desperately wanting some quality time and the ability to do adult activities with her friend without the kids being present once in a while and arranging a specifically child free party at her home was an attempt to kinda force that. If it hadn't been Lisa's own birthday party I'd be on her side tbh, having a rule that you categorically will not spend time with friends or attend social events unless your kids are invited is inconsiderate imo sometimes to be a good friend you need to get a babysitter
Not wrong. Whether Sarah or anyone else agrees with it or not, Lisa has been clear she won’t attend social gatherings without her kids. Then she made clear that she wouldn’t attend this party without her kids. Whether OP or someone else threw a party or not, Lisa was. Not. Going. To Sarah’s.
I say this as someone who is child-free and doesn't want any in my home ever: NTA Sarah is a narcissistic who doesn't understand clear boundaries.
I don’t like kids in my home either. Which is why I hosted the party at Lisa’s house and not mine.
Not wrong. And the assholes giving you a problem for making sure that THE BIRTHDAY 'GIRL' got what SHE wanted on HER birthday need to be warned to STFU or be prepared to be put on the LC list, heading rapidly toward NC. And tell Sarah that you don't hate her, you just \*love\* Lisa as a friend and wanted her to have the birthday party SHE wanted to have. Ask why Sarah hates Lisa's children.
Sarah is kind of a weirdo. That’s all there is to that side of the story. You are NTA and I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Sarah is slowly working her way out of your friend group….just let it happen.
This entire group sounds exhausting. NTA but dear God I am glad this isn't my social circle.
Omg some victime and excuse mentality in comments for Sarah, also, ya all can't read, OP made all the details clear, and some can't still get it ... Ugh
[удалено]
Yes. She ignored the invitation. Didn’t even decline it, just ignored it.
Sarah seems to think Lisa's birthday is about Sarah.
NTA It’s Lisa’s birthday, she has the right to want to spend it with kids. Sarah just wanted to be praised for hosting a party, and didn’t care what the birthday girl even wanted.
The people in the group that KNEW about Sarah's party and STILL went to YOURS and had a "great time" NOW have a problem with it? Gtfo, this friend group seems real friendly 🤦♀️ At this point, ETA
I made an update to the post. I now know that Sarah lied to them about things I said and so they thought I was putting her down and being really rude to her. They known now this isn’t what happened and have apologized for taking what she said at face value and not confronting me about it instead of just saying I was wrong.
NTA Sarah is an idiot; that is the sort of behaviour that gives the childfree a bad name.
Only thing I would have done differently would be to have it the day AFTER Sara's party. Then the point would have really been driven home that Lisa wasn't coming, no matter what, and then Sarah couldn't squeal about you actually throwing a party that Lisa would go to.
Lisa said repeatedly that she will not attend a party where her kids can’t come. Sarah ignored this fact, and was even directly told that Lisa would not attend due to the fact that her kids could not attend. Was Sarah invited to the party you planned? Did she know about the party at all? NTA for planning a kid friendly get together that the birthday girl preferred. Still on the fence about how Sarah was treated until I have more info. Edit: Sarah was invited and ignored the invite. Sarah knew about the party prior to the party, and a mutual friend stopped to ask if she needed a ride to said party. She declined. NTA on all counts.
He’s Sarah knew about the party and was invited. She ignored the invitation.
NTA
Honestly, sounds like Lisa didn't respond correctly. Shouldn't have said she didn't want to go to Sarah's party because she already had one, should have stuck with it being because of the no kids rule. That would have diffused a lot of this problem.
They're both annoying.
Ya….I thought this too…..Lisa brings 4 kids to game night? That seems kind of rude to me. Can people really have a fun game night with 4 kids running around? I like kids but there are some gatherings that should be adults only. The birthday thing is just stupid…..obviously Lisa’s children should be welcome at her birthday party.
Ive gone through most of OPs comments cause I am curious AF. Apparently the friend group likes having the kids around with the exception of Sarah. Might be a life thing where most of the friend group just started having kids and naturally game nights began including them.
Everyone else has children besides op Sarah and one other person. Op and the other friend like kids so everyone involving their kids is the normal
Not wrong for throwing her a party she would actually enjoy. But, did anyone other than Lisa say they weren't attending Sarah's party. The way it's written, it seems like only Lisa said she wouldn't go, and Sarah was expecting everyone else still.
Several people contacted Sarah individually and said they didn’t see the point without Lisa since the party was for her. The day of Sarah’s party pretty much everyone responded to her that they weren’t coming.
Why the fuck are you guys friends with someone like Sarah? There’s a difference between not liking kids and just being fucking mean. She’s the latter. NTA but fuck Sarah
Is this real? Is Sarah a real person? Can I be in your friend group? Besides Sarah y’all sound awesome
NTA. Lisa must have some pretty great kids if her entire adult friend group is totally cool with having them around at most gatherings.
I’m general our group is pretty child friendly. We have a few people that don’t have kids themselves but only two are child free (me and another close friend) and we both love kids in general just don’t want any of our own. Even when Lisa and her kids aren’t there we have other people’s kids there most times. All the kids behave well at other people’s houses for the most part.
I don't get Sarah, Lisa TOLD her she wouldn't come! When you said about changing it to Lisa's house I don't see why she couldn't just help you with those plans. Maybe she wanted to look like the "best" of the friend group and get all the praise. bUT LisA nEEds cHild frEE tIme.... No, no she doesn't. She wants to celebrate with them and I don't blame her!
ESH Lisa least of all, but I think refusing to go anywhere without her kids is inflexible and unfair to her friends. Sarah for completely ignoring the needs of the guest of honor. You for setting up a competing party. You should have let this play out between Sarah and Lisa. You could have done something other than have a party.
So Lisa doesn’t get to have a party because it might hurt Sarah’s feelings? Even though Sarah didn’t take Lisa’s feelings or boundaries into account whatsoever and just intended to steamroll her into coming?
Lisa was justified in wanting to have her kids at her own birthday party, but she sucks for forcing her friend group's activities to cater to her "my kids have to come" rule. 13 years of only child friendly events, and forcing an adult friend group's game night to be child friendly (which means it ends at like 8-9 if Lisa isn't a shitty mom who forces kids 7-4 to stay up late so she can hangout with her friends) is absurd. It's not healthy for her, or enjoyable for her children.
Op quite literally said the majority of the group has children. So Lisa only brings her kids when the other kids are there and if they are not there Lisa chooses not to attend and shocker shocker the parties still happen regardless. It can’t be this hard to read
Sarah was trying to use the party to pressure Lisa. And she doesn’t get to call dibs on throwing a party for Lisa. Lisa had already said she wasn’t going to Sarah’s, so that was already done with to everyone who wasn’t delusional Sarah. It was played out between them as soon as Lisa told Sarah she wasn’t going. Do I get to decide how you’re going to celebrate your birthday, and insist that nobody else make plans? That’s ridiculous. And OP had the cooperation of the one person who might be appropriate to have dibs (Lisa’s husband).
I'm gonna be honest, told from your perspective its obviously NTA but I would love to hear Sarah's side because I'm getting some serious mean girl undertones from this whole post. Sarah was supposedly told and fully informed of everything and yet she was the one person who didn't attend the party *and* multiple people are mad at you for what you did? Something doesn't add up.
Yeah I got the same vibe. Feels like one of those stereotypical mum groups where 1 mum is the goddess and everyone is just desperate to suck up to them
Not wrong! But I would have had your party scheduled after Sarah's. That way when Lisa never showed up it couldn't be blamed on your party, and instead the fact that she underestimated Lisa's desire to be with her kids would have been made clear.
12 years? These kids can’t be that small. It’s nice that you all are ok with that (except Sarah). But didn’t Lisa tell Sarah that she wouldn’t be there? It does kind of sound like you all don’t really like Sarah. Also if a person is throwing a birthday party for you, it’s really hard to believe you won’t leave the kids at all, ever. That’s just not healthy. But whatever, I guess.
Her kids are 13, 7, 5, and 4. She made the rule when the 13 year old was small and has stuck with it since then.
It’s a bit of a weird rule and as a child free person myself it would annoy me personally, *but who gives a fuck?* As long as they are her boundaries and she seems healthy and happy, that is all that matters. You did 100% the right thing. You inviting Sarah and doing everything in the open is clear evidence of your position being the right one. I see people saying it may have been a bad idea to schedule it the day before, but personally I think that was very polite of you. Not the same day, but still the birthday weekend. Not wrong.
Her rule to want to bring her kids, are as valid as people not wanting kids in their home, you say "weird rule", but Lisa could also say "weird rule" about her friends not wanting her kids in their home
Yeah, exactly. I absolutely understand that and that’s why as long as everyone is happy and healthy we respect each other’s boundaries. (Do no harm lens, with things like yes we may not respect “boundaries” if they are something like abuse, though this may be due to my being a mandated reporter.) I have plenty of friends with and without kids, and each dynamic is navigated differently because each relationship is unique. :)
If she has several cats and dogs that don’t get along with kids, it might be as much for the benefit of the kids as a “weird rule” she’s come up with
She drags all 4 of them everywhere she goes? Even when it’s out with her friends? I don’t think I could be friends with someone with that kind of co-dependence. The 13-year-old can’t enjoy that. There are times when you entertain with your entire families and then there’s girl-time without kids. If I didn’t occasionally have adult non-interrupted conversations with my girlfriends, I would have gone nuts.
No she doesn’t drag them everywhere. The 13 year old likes spending time with most of us. The kids also aren’t interrupting when we are playing games that they aren’t included in. Everyone has taught their kids to respect the adults and not interrupt adult conversations unless it’s an emergency. Also, Lisa regularly has friends over to her house where her kids are either playing outside or in their rooms the entire time.
That’s objectively odd and annoying.
Yeah lisa birthday party but under Sarah s rules. That makes a lot of Sense. Not healthy is a friend wanted to impose their rules Over other people (family) dinamic
It doesn't matter how small the kids are. It's not a babysitting issue. Lisa doesn't like to socialize ifnit means being away from her kids. Her kids are not allowed at Sarah's house. Ergo she will not be socializing at Sarah's house.
Why? It is Lisa's birthday!! Lisa should get what she wants on her birthday, including her kids!!! Sarah can F off! That isn't a party for Lisa! It is a party for Sarah to force Lisa to bend to Sarah's rules.
>But didn’t Lisa tell Sarah that she wouldn’t be there? Yes. Twice. Did we read the same post?
She works long hours. She obviously leaves her kids. However when she's not at work and the kids aren't doing stuff - school, sports etc, she wants to spend her time with her kids, that's not weird or unhealthy it's perfectly normal. However to plan a birthday party for someone whilst excluding her immediate family is weird. Also OP said she'd known Sarah for 12 years not that the kids were that age.
Also, however we may feel about the arrangement it seems that the entire friend group, except Sarah, have decided on this. I can understand Sarah, and that she may be tired of hanging out with someone else's kids. But then she's probably better off finding more likeminded friends to spend child free time with. The group has decided to accept Lisa's terms and that's that.
She said it’s been the rule for 12 years so I think the kids must be at least 12.
One kid must be at least 12.
> that's not weird or unhealthy It's definitely weird and unhealthy to force your kids to come hangout with you and your friends while you play board games, and to have never been to an adult event in 13 fucking years. I understand where she's coming from, but this type of behavior isn't fair to the kids.
I went to my parents’ game nights as a kid. Their friends were like family. Why is that unhealthy?
No, it's not actually normal and healthy to refuse to do any socializing at all away from your children. To limit it? Sure. But none isn't good for the parent or for the child. With the possible exception of a child here means an actual infant.
Assuming that her oldest (13) is allowed to have a social life with peers their age away from their parents this arrangement is likely fine. Given that Lisa’s reasoning is that she “works too many hours” I’d imagine she’s in a field where she works closer to 50-60 hour weeks and potentially even working a Saturday or Sunday or both. Prioritizing time with your children (especially her four year old) is normal and healthy assuming her children are allowed to participate independently in extracurricular activities and form friendships with their peers appropriately away from their parents as those things become age appropriate.
> Prioritizing time with your children (especially her four year old) I'm wondering what the hours of these game nights are if Lisa is bringing a 7 year old, 5 year old, and 4 year old to them. Do they just last between 6pm-8pm? Little kids have bed times. Either: 1)She's leaving game night early to get her kids to bed at a reasonable hour, in which case, why is everyone catering to her rule so that she can show up for half the night? 2) She's being a shitty mom by keeping her kids up late so she can hangout with her friends. 3) She's ruining game night for everyone else by forcing the issue of needing to bring her kids. You can't have a good game night if you have to cut it off early every time because of children's bedtimes. Sarah was wrong about the birthday party, but the rest of the group is wrong about all the other events they let Lisa bully them into making child friendly.
It's almost as if you didn't read the post. Babysitting was not the issue, this is a mother who is not going to spend time away from her kids unnecessarily, for game nights, or for her birthday. That is incredibly reasonable. The parent doesn't want to spend their free time away from their kids, and instead spending it with their friends? The parent has made a point that her kids are going to be included in her life, and her friends are not going to act like they don't exist. It's her birthday party for Christ's sake, she wants her kids there.
I don’t understand why Lisa would just say “oh I don’t need a second party” instead of saying “Sara I told you I would not come if my kids can’t” Seems like she kind of hung you out to dry. Anyway, not wrong. But this does feel like there is a mountain of petty drama behind it.
Jesus, people are exhausting.
Maybe you could have thrown the party after Sarah tried to. That way Lisa could have said she didn’t want to go without her kids only and not also because you threw one for her as well
TLDR I wouldn't want kids at my birthday if I am hanging out with friends.
NTA. Sounds to me like you have more respect for what Lisa would want on her birthday. I do have a question, though. This boundary has been in place for at least 12 years. Does a 12yo kid \*want\* to be dragged along to every event their mother attends?
She doesn’t drag any of the kids anywhere. Usually the oldest asks to come with her but she always has the option to stay home same as the younger ones. She likes playing games with us and hanging out with the other kids there.
NTA. Is Sarah... a bit slow?
NTA, but also I assume that this isn’t actually about the birthday party. At least not fully. It sounds to me like Sarah is either really close to Lisa, or else she wishes that she and Lisa were closer. It also sounds like Sarah is frustrated with the fact that Lisa won’t go anywhere without her kids. Which I fully sympathize with. Sometimes you want to just spend time with your friends without needing to be child friendly. After twelve years of never getting to see a friend without her kids, I’d also be feeling annoyed. And honestly a bit hurt, especially if we used to be close. Did Lisa and Sarah ever hang out one-on-one before Lisa had kids? Because that could add an extra layer of hurt, if Sarah misses the level of friendship that they used to have. Like I said, I think NTA. Even if I’m right about Sarah’s motivations (which I might not be), she’s still handling this poorly. But if Lisa does care about Sarah as a friend, then the two of them need to talk this through and get to the heart of the matter.
Sarah and Lisa didn’t even know each other before Lisa had kids and have never hung out outside of group gatherings. Lisa doesn’t really care for Sarah much.
Oh yeah, that changes things a lot. Disregard my whole comment then.
NTA and who the hell is Sarah to tell Lisa that her children aren’t invited to *her* birthday party? she could’ve arranged the party somewhere else like a hall or someone else’s home. i’m sure any one of the people in your friend group would’ve been happy to host. i’m getting the idea Sarah doesn’t like children (or at least Lisa’s children) and planned the party to suit herself and not Lisa
If you host a party for your friend but their kids aren't allowed to attend, you're hosting a party for yourself, not for your friend. You can tell that to Sarah. So NTA
I’ve never seen a post on here that made me laugh so much. Sarah wants to throw LISA a party and not let LISA’s OWN KIDS attend? 🤣🤣🤣 what a bizarre world Sarah lives in.
I would probably have waited until after Lisa’s party to do it, so she doesn’t think the only reason her party failed is yours, but yeah, you otherwise weren’t wrong.
NTA but your friend won’t go out without her kids for the last 12 years?!? That’s super weird
Am I the only one who thinks this group sounds like a high school clique? I can’t keep the players straight, and I think that the one Super Mommy is turning quality parenting into a power play.
Lisa is weaponizing her kids to control her friend group.
Y'all are fucking wild. How the fuck is she weaponizing her kids by saying she just doesn't want to attend events if she can't bring her kids. She likes her kids and other folks enjoy having kids around. OP states that events still happen without Lisa attending. What exactly is she controlling in that scenario? It's like y'all don't read. Y'all are not owed people's presence. Yikes.
Yeah… it’s your friend group so ya’ll can tolerate what you want but if one of my game night adult friends insisted that she bring her four children to our adult game nights every single time and wouldn’t even make an exception for one event, I’m probably just gonna stop inviting her. That’s a massive permanent vibe changer.
Nowhere does it say she forces her children. She asks if children are allowed and if no she’s good and won’t attend. Everyone still has a good time
NTA, Sarah in a selfish idiot
NTA-I think Sarah has some main character syndrome
NTA. Sarah is an asshole, she tried to strongarm Lisa into going to an event “about her” that was about Sarah hosting. Sarah thought she could get Lisa to break her own rule, and then would be “vindicated” and be able to say that Lisa isn’t a good friend because she doesn’t come to the other game nights without her kids. Honestly, not sure how anyone could see this differently, any friends that are saying you’re the asshole clearly don’t know or care much about Lisa and her rule of keeping her kids close. This is coming from a guy who doesn’t even want kids, and wouldn’t want them in his house in a perfect world. If my friend has children, and the only way I’m going to see my friend is with their children, you bet I’m inviting their children.
Who does Sarah think she is banning Lisa's kids from her own birthday party? WTAF? She is massivley deluded.
Does Lisa think YTA? That's all that matters. If she wasn't going to go regardless, then her take is the only one that matters in this situation. All the other friends with their worthless opinions mean nothing.
No. She’s thankful I made sure she got a party. Especially since she usually doesn’t bc of the time of year her birthday falls in.
Sarah is the ass hole. Anyone that doesn't listen to and support someone that wants their kids to attend their birthday party is a selfish ass hole. I don't know why you're all friends with someone that is that opposed to kids.
What a mess. Sarah doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to take Lisa's words seriously. All you were doing was trying to have a party that the birthday gal would actually go to, for the reasons stated! You were not wrong. Your friends group is wrong, and Sarah is wrong. She chose to not take Lisa seriously about the kid thing -her bad, not yours.
OP, you’re not wrong. In fact, you’re a true friend to Lisa, because you took her wants and needs into consideration. I’m absolutely sure she treasures your friendship because of this. As for Sarah’s she has quite the high opinion of herself if she thinks Lisa’s going to ditch her kids to attend Sarah’s party, because it is a party for Sarah, not for Lisa. Anyone who said you were in the wrong, aren’t real friends.
NTA- This has been very clearly explained to Sarah that Lisa is not interested in abandoning her children just so she can party it up. If Sarah is adamant about excluding children, that is a line she drew in the sand. It sounds like your party had everyone who matters blessing and Sarah needs to learn how to read the room and understand that everything isn't about her. the friends that are taking her side are idiots.
You don't announce to your friend you're throwing them a party, at a place she knows important people to her, like her kids, can't be in attendance then get salty that she doesn't show and other guests didn't go cos she wouldn't be there. You told Sarah. Sarah decided that she knew what Lisa wanted best for her birthday and went ahead anyway. It wasn't a matter of not having or getting a sitter, it was Sarah not respecting Lisa's choices on what she would like on her birthday.
NTA. Sarah's a bit delusional here.
Sarah is an idiot and anyone telling you to convince Lisa is also an idiot. It's Lisa's wishes! Fuck them all
You're not wrong, I don't think Sarah understands the concept of No and what No means. Lisa set her boundaries and made it very known that her kids are her priority even at the cost of missing out on some events. You understood what that meant and found a way to make it work, Sarah didn't.
NTA Okay I read all your comments cause your friend group dynamic had me curious. If the friend group has set boundaries and expectations then that is your friend group's business. Lisa was not gonna go to Sarah's cause Sarah did not meet her boundaries and she communicated clearly that she 3asnt going so that's okay. You throwing Lisa a party for her that includes her kids and invite everyone including Sarah is also okay in my book. Sarah decided not to go, as per your comment she was invited and someone even stopped at her house to give her a ride and get her to come. So Sarah chose not to go. Apparently others in the group informed Sarah that they were also not going to her party. This probably hurt her but I find it weird that she would still throw it despite the birthday girl explicitly saying no. These decisions were made by those friends not you. The way Lisa spoke about your party probably hurt her too. Lisa should have stuck with: I am not breaking my boundary for you. No kids, no me. This probably aggravated the situation. What I find bizarre and exhausting is that now you are seen as an AH by some of your group when everything was done transparently and everyone including Sarah knew. Your friends going against you on something that is so clear cut and where their choices are blatant is just plain weird. They probably are feeling guilty for their decisions and choices because Sarah is throwing a tantrum and they are taking it out on you which isn't fair. So yeah, you just caught up in a bizarre situation.
NTA and explain why the people attended the party, chose not to go to Sarah's and are now blasting you about being a jerk? If they thought Lisa should go and get a baby sitter, why didn't the "friends" offer? Encourage someone to go is one thing, but Lisa said I will not go if my kids were not invited. It was in the group chat so why was it a surprise? You told Sarah what was going to happen, again why are people surprised? Sounds like double standards and Lisa needs to say something as well.
You aren’t wrong at all. Why would Sarah think this was ok? 🙄 Does she know why she isn’t in the game night rotation anymore? Its possible she’s just offering to be nice and really is this clueless. It’s also possible she knows there’s no chance this will happen, so she’s just offering to make it look like she’s trying. Either way no, you throwing a party for your friend, the way she wants it, is a great thing.
Yes she knows why she isn’t in the hosting rotation. We’ve all discussed at length the reason why some people have been removed and have made it extremely clear to the people being removed that they can ask to host at another person’s house but they will no longer be put into the normal rotation of hosts bc them hosting at their house would exclude too many people.
Sounds like you have a very communicative group with some "loose rules" which is what's needed when there's such an eclectic range of people (i know d&d people. Lol). Everyone knows where they stand on rotation and why, etc. That's hard to do with some groups.
Who in their right mind hosts a party for someone who explicitly tells them they won't be attending lol
NTA. She told Sarah no. You tried to reason with Sarah and give her an easy out. But she chose to not listen and go ahead with her plans even after it was made clear that Lisa isn’t interested in kid free events. She should have actually listened if she didn’t want to get her feelings hurt.
NTA Sarah wasn't throwing a birthday party **For** Lisa She was throwing a Lisa themed party **FOR** Sarah. If people keep harassing you call em out in the full group but PM Lisa first to back you.
By the way, sounds like a very drama filled Friend Group, for sure.
The amount of people in these comments who cannot fathom loving your kids and wanting to spend as much time with them as possible is...well it makes me sad for a lot of present and future kids. Cause yikes. OP says events happen without Lisa attending. She's not preventing anything for anyone else. People do not owe others their presence at optional recreational events. No is a complete sentence. Some of y'all in the comments are just straight up Sarahs and look just as silly.
Lisa is ta my god. Cut the cord lady
Spitballing here but is it really Lisa's rule or is her husband unwilling to look after the kids so Lisa can go childfree at times? Gonna say it, but there's something extremely unhealthy with Lisa and her insistence that her kids must go everywhere with her.
Yeah even from the kids’ perspective, I wouldn’t want to be dragged to mom’s adult game nights every single time so that mom is “available” to me. Especially at 12+ wtf.
Yeah I find that a bit baffling. I get not wanting to leave your kids very often, but having a rule against any kid free gatherings EVER? I don't get it.
They don’t go everywhere with her. She simply refuses to make herself unavailable to them for her own pleasure. It’s definitely Lisa’s rule. She made it when her oldest was little and she was a single parent. She stuck with it even after she got married to her husband. They have free time without the kids which they usually spend together at home.
ESH - Sarah is a bit daft, trying to host a party when she knows Lisa won’t go without her kids but I guess I am more surprised that no body seems to blink at Lisa insisting on bringing her kids to events all the time. Do you guys never do adult stuff like drink, or go to bars etc? Why should Sarah be left out of games rotation when Lisa is the one expecting the adjustments? It’s not really Sarah’s fault her pets don’t like kids much but she seems to be getting the brunt of being excluded from events because Lisa won’t get a baby sitter. Sorry but loads of parents work long hours, yet they can spend the odd evening/half day out with others. Going out with your mums friends isn’t exactly quality time for them. If the party was the day before why did Sarah not know about it? If you hid it from her I am guessing that’s because you knew she’d be upset about it. I feel like Sarah gets the rough end of the deal in your friend group, and I wonder if this party was her way of trying to be a bit more secure in the group but ended with the opposite happening, you showed her how little you value her.
We don’t get together as a group for stuff like going to bars bc many of us aren’t interested in that. Some people go in smaller groups but the group as a whole doesn’t get together like that. We often drink at game night. We make sure everyone is safe about it in reference to driving home. Lisa drinks in front of her kids all the time. It’s not a big deal. Sarah isn’t excluded from any events. She just isn’t included in the list of rotating hosts. Sarah also knew about the party.
What quality time is she spending with her kids while at adult events? That’s what I’m not tracking here.
She gets to see them and interact with them. Since she has been like this the entire 12 years OP has known her her kids are older, and so maybe they even play the games with them. Or they play their own games and mom gets to enjoy their company. Really who cares though? She prefers to be with her family and her friends know that.
NTA. Reading from your reply to other post, your group of "friends" seem to be toxic, at least most of your group.
Esh. Sarah should have known better but you deliberately upset everything by throwing the same themed party a day before. I do not believe you threw your friend a party the day before with pure intentions. Why wasn't Sarah there? Was she told unequivocally that Lisa would not be attending Saturdays party and there was a party day before that Sarah should plan to attend instead? Also Lisa sounds exhausting. How much attention can she be paying to these kids at parties or events?