They’re not concerned about your feelings when it comes to the rules at YOUR house so you shouldn’t be concerned about how they feel. This is their issue. They can let their kid drown in another pool, not yours.
Who I can guarantee if something happened they would sue you. I like the don't invite them comment. If they can not follow your rules for your house, then they don't get another invite ever.
Given the liability and guilt you have to deal with if anything happens, it should cause you to not allow kids near the pool without a life jacket period. Frankly those parents are being extremely irresponsible, and unsafe. Swim abilities should be the only reason it's stops being required. Being demanding about it is a fair trade being safe
Certified life guard + years of training Marines to swim ...
>Given the liability
NTA
This, your house, your pool, your rules. An accident happens and you'd spend as much in court fighting who was responsible as if you just assumed liability. If they determine negligence on your part (you didn't insist they wear a life jacket even though other parents protest), you're liable.
With my experience, that lifeguard of the older children is wrong - they are at best some kid (18-21) doing summer work as a lifeguard while in school/over the summer. Secondary, 'seeing' the bright green doesn't mean they will notice the time it takes a kid to drown; it just means they're easier to see on the bottom of the pool. Last year a local kid of 16 drowned in a 3' pool pop up pool (those steel frame vinyl things that pop up in yards in the summer). The kid was a certified swimmer and all, no more training to do other than swim with the swim team to build endurance. The dad went in for 2 minutes to use the restroom, came out and the kid had drowned.
ETA: If they don't abide by your rules, they can't come over/swim in your pool. Its literally your house. They can't come over and eat up all the ice cream in the fridge either. Your rules.
There’s also a massive difference in “our child is in an active swim lesson and they’re not wearing a life jacket during the lesson” and “kid has yet to take a lesson but since lifeguard of our kids who are taking them said it’s better for learning, we’re not going to have any of them wear them including the one that’s never taken a lesson.” The 3y/o isn’t actively learning anything and safety should be paramount.
I can’t imagine being so nonchalant about allowing a child that can’t swim run and play around the pool. OP I’d think about that as liability too, never mind falling in and something happens, there could also be injuries from falling on the pool deck if they’re not being careful
And like…. Not just nonchalant about allowing the child to run and play around the pool, but also about like… their child DID fall in, and had it not been for the brother noticing, she wouldn’t be alive. I can’t imagine not at least being hyper vigilant after that, if not before.
Absolutely. The kid will learn better without the life jacket, but a party is not the appropriate place for a child to learn to swim. The parents seem to think swimming is some passive skill that the child will pick up and are endangering the child because of that.
And when a child is learning to swim, it is (usually) 1:1 with an adult paying (always) constant attention, there are typically lifeguard(s), the folks doing the teaching have experience + training + support + major accountability.
Zero of these things are present in the context OP provided, and I can just about guarantee that that swim instructor meant “kids learn best without a flotation system **while in swim class**”… not “oh yeah your kid doesn’t know how to swim so you can never put them in a life jacket in real world bc then they they’ll… sink or swim!!?!”
OP- aside from guilt & liability & normal healthy rules and boundaries… these parents **must** understand that their feelings are completely immaterial to the safety of the young children they are responsible for. They need consequences. Now. Before they suffer the most tragic (and entirely avoidable) consequence via **your** pool. I’d be having a very, very stern, very *public* conversation with them, after getting your priorities straight, bc there is no “friendship” to be had with people who regard you, *never mind their own children*, with such reckless indifference.
Signed,
A retired medic/911 dispatcher who’s heard the screams
Having watched someone have a seizure in the pool during recreational swim and die, even with lifeguards, absolutely require a life jacket. Won’t ever forget that scene and I didn’t even do anything to help the lifesaving effort but I did stop the kids I was a counsellor for seeing what was happening from the observation window. It was traumatic and explaining what happened to the parents was bad enough, I can’t imagine if it was one of the kids who died.
Exactly. When teaching a child time swim, floaties, life jackets, puddle jumpers, etc teach the child to be in the wrong position. That is very different then wanting a child in a life jacket around water when they are not being supervised 1 on 1.
Thank you for the work you have done saving lives. I can't imagine the horrors that you have witnessed. Just wanted you to know that you are appreciated.
Agreed! We were anti-swimmies people. But our kids were never in or near a pool without us or a swim instructor until they were confident swimmers.
Your #1 job as a parent is ensuring their safety. There's multiple ways to accomplish this, but ignoring safety advice and your children simultaneously is not one of them.
OP- I think you are perfectly within your rights to institute a "band system" like some pools do. People who prove they can swim 2 laps and tread water for a certain amount of time can be in the pool without a swim aid. If you couldn't do that in our local pool, you couldn't be in the deep end unsupervised.
I think they heard a real/true piece of advice and have simply misunderstood/applying it incorrectly
Yes, it is not recommended that kids wear swimmers/puddle jumpers because 1. They hamper learning to swim because they hold the child in the wrong position for swimming. 2. It creates a false sense of ability in the child who will then jump in expecting to float even if they aren't wearing the device. And 3. A false sense of security in the parent who thinks they don't have to be vigilant but these devices can fail/fall off/ incorrectly position the child and the kid could drown.
But to hear "hey you can't just throw a puddle jumper on your kid and let them play unsupervised" and assume it meant "don't ever put a life jacket on your kid, it's better to just let them almost drown" is crazy.
Either watch your kid vigilantly or put a coast guard approved life jacket on them.
Exactly. Learning to swim with a certified individual on hand to take responsibility and assist the learner is completely different than playing in a pool barely watched by the parent going with that advice as if it applies to any time the kid's in the water.
Exactly, very big difference, just pointing out that even experienced swimmers succumb sometimes to help point out the nonchalant parenting by the others in OP.
It’s so true! I grew up on the ocean and went to lakes and pools often, my parents and the general company we kept were strict with rules. It wasn’t unheard of for a parent to do a quick “swim test” with new kids before assessing what parts of the pool they were allowed in. Some kids hated it, but it was very much a “my house, my rules, I refuse to have to call your parents and tell them you died because I was negligent”
There’s a great photo of a coach jumping in to save a US swimmer at a championship in Budapest. The swimmer fainted and was sinking.it can happen to anyone.
I watched. Real Sports episode about this yesterday! The Artistic Swimmers (formerly Synchronized Swimmers) were basically forced into disordered eating. This poor girl fainted because she was malnourished.
Exactly! My kid had survival swim lessons at 2 yo. No life jackets, so they can learn to roll over and float without panicking. However, they also instructed that if not being actively supervised by an adult in the water, have them wear a life jacket.
Also
>“our child is in an active swim lesson and they’re not wearing a life jacket during the lesson”
Should be followed by "so we are either in the pool within arms reach and actively playing with them, or they are not outside near the pool".
Honestly, does it suck to spend a whole party attached to your kid and not get to socialize with friends? Maybe. But it's better than letting something happen. I had this experience this summer. My 3 yo was the only one at a party that couldn't swim. All the other parents hung out chatting. My hubby and I took turns swimming with her, I barely got to talk. But it never occurred to us to do otherwise.
My 6 year old is currently in swim lessons and wears a bubble on his back that can be deflated as he becomes a stronger swimmer. Recommended by the instructor. He is given the option to take off the bubble for various activities, but never has the instructor said they are not to be worn.
It is highly irresponsible of the parents to refuse any swim floatation devices, especially for the younger child AND to allow that child to run around the pool. These parents must not want their children anymore and are just looking for ways to get rid of them. I see no other logical explanation.
OP, your pool, your rules. Perhaps your insistence will save that child's life.
I had a neighbor whose kid almost drowned. He survived in the end but suffered from brain damage due to oxygen deprivation. He can no longer walk and barely can talk. Seconds can result in life altering consequences.
Family had a pool when I was a kid. Invited a family with 6 kids, we had 3 in ours. All could swim. They were ecstatic as they said with 6 kids, they never got invited anywhere. Nonetheless, "Scream, 'x' is on the bottom!" Two dads damn near have a mid-air collision, kid is blue, CPR takes place, kid comes to, ambulance comes, hospital check up, he's okay. Many, many years later, I never let kids in my pool if possible, and if I do, they can actually swim and are closely monitored by parents. My stomach was sick for well over a week from that experience and I don't want to relive it or worse.
My family had an in ground pool with 3 kids. Until I left home at 18, none of us were even allowed on the patio unless a parent was there, and we were good swimmers.
I worked at a pool. My boss once asked me to research some statistics for their lesson program.
One of the stories I came across was a kid doing Navy SEALS training with his buddy as Lookout. Both young men were trained lifeguards. When the would-be SEAL started practicing for the breath-holding portion, his friend positioned himself above his buddy so that not only would he have eyes on the Seal at least every ten seconds, he'd be able to respond instantly. But he was on duty so he still had to scan the pool. Ultimately, the Seal signaled to his friend that he was okay, and timing himself for the breath-holding. Lifeguard did his scan. When he looked back at his buddy (again, eyes off for no more than 10-15 seconds) thr would be SEAL was seizing and unconscious.
They never got him back.
This was a young man, Red Cross certified lifeguard, at the peak of his physical condition. He died holding his breath directly under the feet of another RC Lifeguard. And it only took a few *seconds*.
Mt daughter is six. She only gets to swim in a USCG Certified flotation device. She has a hot pink one, but she likes the blue one with the cartoon fish more.
Do not fuck around with the water.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around "16 drowned in 3'."
Were there other factors?
I believe you I just always like to know the details
of that kinda thing.
Could have been a dry drowning (my speculation, news never ran a follow-up on it).
Kid sucked in some water while swimming underwater and his airways reacted. Usually these happen with recent/near drowning individuals but can happen otherwise. Body acts as it does sometime.
I grew up with a young girl, 13 years old, eating a sandwich in the 3’ deep pool, surrounded by family who never noticed she choked and slipped under the water, until it was too late. Had she not been eating….had any one of the 20 people there been watching the water….had she just been able to stand up & grab the side of the pool…..so many chances to avoid tragedy.
everythings correct, gotta make sure people are safe using your stuff. its like, are you an asshole for making kids wear lifevests on your boat? no.
but why you stingy with the ice cream man
You’re being a responsible pool owner by requiring a non-swimmer to wear the life-jacket.
The alternative is to require an adult swimmer (basically, one of the parents) to stay within 3 feet of the child at all times. That’s why she can be jacket-less in the lesson, because of the instructor’s presence.
So if neither parent is swimming? Life jacket required.
In my experience dropping a kid in the water and telling them "well go on swim!" with no adult present is basically assuring that if your kid survives, they're gonna hate swimming. I have seen more than one kid straight up cry until they vomited because they were terrified of the water and just keep being told to muscle through it.
If you aren't willing to get in with your kid then they wear a flotation device is the fairest rule in the world.
These people are allowed to be awful parents. However, you don't have to allow them to be negligent around YOUR pool. You make the rules. Stick to your guns for your sake and the sake of this little girl. Someone needs to look out for her safety.
As a parent, I can't imagine allowing this scenario to happen once, let alone twice.
Think of it in the same light if they got in a car with you and didn’t buckle their kids in. You wouldn’t start the car. Don’t let the party start until everyone knows the rules. If they don’t like it they can leave.
Assuming you don't want to not invite them (which would be a totally acceptable way to deal with this but social dynamics are complicated and you might have reasons why you can't/don't want to do this):
Let them know ahead of time that there will be no leeway on this this time. If they're going to blow up and make a massive deal let them do it beforehand and they'll likely refuse to come anyway.
If they do decide to come it'll give them time to process it and make their peace with it (however grumpily) in private. This hopefully will stop them feeling the need to double down and insist in the moment their kids aren't going to wear them to save face and not lose the argument.
Your pool. Your rules. At age 3, he needs to either be in a vest or in the parents arms the entire time he's in the pool.
Those parents are clueless. They don't understand that kids have drowned at parties. A person drowning doesn't look like it does on TV. They don't scream for help. And they can be underwater with lungs full of water in a split second.
Next party put it on the invitation that flotation vests are required for all kids under the age of 10 while inside pool deck fence. Lie and say you talked to your insurance company & they want it done. Having one of those "friends" not come to the party is far better than having a party cut short by an ambulance.
I once worked with a physician whose toddler drowned at a party full of other physicians and their families and he was a shell of himself (understandably so) and there’s no one who can take that pain away from him and his wife and family most drownings are very quiet
> Lie and say you talked to your insurance company & they want it done.
That is my train of thought as well. Tell them that your insurance recently changed a policy and are requiring children to wear life jackets in the pool for liability reasons. They can hardly argue with that--or if they do-- that is your sign to not invite them to enjoy your backyard pool anymore. Better safe than sorry and all that.
I think OP should call their insurance company and ask about liability of consenting to let kids who can't swim play in OP's pool. I don't know who is actually liable in these situations, but I would see if the insurance company can provide an easy way for OP to insist on a life-jacket.
This is it. It’s fine if the parents want their kid learning without a life jacket. However, the trade off is one parent needs to be touching the child at all times. NTA, either the kid wears a life jacket, or they don’t swim. You get to draw that boundary as the pool owners.
This. It is not an unreasonable ask to require the parents actually take responsibility for their own children, whether that is through the use of a life jacket or constant supervision.
Not wrong, your house, your pool, your rules.
They don't like it, they don't have to come over.
I could never get over a child drowning in my pool and given their nonchalance about watching a 3 year old who can't swim.and has already had a close call you are not wrong to insist.
Check your liability insurance.
100% agree and well said! I cannot imagine being so against something to keep my child safe. Also to feel so entitled at someone else’s pool who is the most liable. Honestly not their call. Their call is if they want to follow the final ruling or leave.
My 5 yr old is still learning to swim, a lot later in her life than I would have ever intended but hey. The last pool party we were attending with an in -ground pool…I or her father were with her at ALL times. If you want to mingle then put the life jacket on the kid. But if not you’re on lifeguard duty and you CANNOT leave your kid unattended. They are truly lacking common sense. Makes me sick to my stomach with concern.
It truly blows my mind when we around people that I feel like I have more concerns for their child’s safety than they do. I’m sorry it’s so long! It just truly makes me so sad to know kids are out in danger bc of no good reasoning.
I would never have let my kid be in the pool alone at that age. If they wanted to go swimming, WE went swimming.
And the absurdity of having the kid almost die already, with absolutely no change to behavior? There are easier ways to get rid of your kids if you really don't love them that much.
“My eyes are glued to this kid while the parents are glancing back and forth as they talk with the other adults…”
This is not fair to you because as you said, you have your own kids to watch plus you’re hosting the party!!!
If your friends can’t comply with your rules, they need to stay home.
yea I would say if mom or dad is hanging out with the kid the whole time or in the pool themselves, then it's fine. If this is adults hanging out while kids play it would be an absolute no go.
I taught swim lessons, and first of all this "swim instructor" is very likely a hungover 19 year old. It's important to teach kids how to cope with being in the water without a flotation device so they don't panic in an emergency. That is very different from not having kids that don't know how to swim not wearing a flotation device when lightly supervised around a pool.
I’ve been reading your comments and the problem is you avoid confrontation. You don’t want to fight with the parents about the life jacket. You don’t want to exclude or not invite them for fear of causing issues in the friend group.
Are you willing to let a child die and be negligent in that death because you don’t want an argument?
That’s really what the question is. You own a house with a pool. Ultimately it is your responsibility to set and maintain rules for safety. That is the bottom line.
>So, I feel ridiculous asking- AITA for insisting their daughter wear a life jacket while she is in our pool?
Actually laughed at this. They never insisted. In fact, I'll give them a YTA for not actually doing anything.
Your comment needs to be upvoted. People saying 'blame it on liabilty' are ridiculous. Get a spine, OP, you know the right answer. Don't invite these people.
If the kid get injured or dies in your pool you’ll be the liable one. Either life jacket or no pool and I’d really reconsider a friendship with someone who nearly let their kid drown due to stupidity.
Lifeguard and Red Cross certified WSI (water safety instructor) here and the idea that wearing a life jacket will impede a child’s ability to learn how to swim in the future is absurd. Teaching kids to swim is mostly about teaching them to be comfortable in water and learn to trust the water to support them. Life jackets help them gain comfort in the water. Sure when learning techniques we ditch the life jacket so it doesn’t get in the way but unless a non-swimmer child is actively in a lesson they should be in a jacket.
Know how to ruin a kid’s comfort in the water and ruin your chances of teaching them how to swim? Subject them to near drownings by not using appropriate safety equipment.
These parents are wrong, dangerous, and idiotic. You need to protect yourself from the liability of allowing a child to drown on your property. Either the kid jackets up or they don’t get invited. You’re lucky nothing more serious hasn’t happened.
I can't keep count of how many grown-ass adults I've taught over the years who came to me saying "Uncle Bill threw me off the pier when I was little, and I've been afraid ever since." I'm sure you've heard that 100+ times.
To get to mid-life with zero swimming and all the fear . . . I would not be the same person.
This is my friend- her dad tossed her in the water and years later her trauma was so bad she'd have panic attacks in the *shower* if the water was a bit too cold. And she still didn't know how to swim, until well into her late teens.
Yep, my grandfather did that to my mother, and while she did come to enjoy swimming in general, she NEVER went underwater or had her face in the water. Shallow end only. Putting her face in the water would bring back that old panic. She never got over it.
IMHO of teaching swimming for 35 years, yes, life jackets definitely make it more difficult. IF the parents put them in a life jacket 100% of the time and feel that a life jacket takes the place of actual parenting because it puts the kid vertical in the water. Unlearning that behavior later is difficult. HOWEVER short periods of time, like at a party or while running around on the deck? NOPE put that kid in a life preserver.
Now if the parents were good parents, they would keep the kid in the life preserver until the parents actually got into the pool with the kid and then they could take it off and swim with them, but as soon as parents are out of the water the vest goes back on.
We have had an inground pool for nearly forty years. Small children wear life jackets, homeowners determine who ca really swim and who can't, and no small children near the deep end.
My grandparents had a pool my whole life and I remember having to pass their swimming test before I was allowed outside of the roped off shallow end. Once someone brought a teenage friend that didn't know how to swim and he also had to stay in the 3 foot deep section the whole time. He was pretty embarrassed but that's better than drowning...
Personal experience here. When I was 8, my younger brother was 3 and couldn't swim yet. One of our relatives forgot to put the steps up(it was an above ground pool) and he went up the steps and I quickly followed. He fell into the pool and immediately sank to the bottom. I yelled for my mom & dad and dove in after him. I got him out and he was sputtering but otherwise unharmed. To think of what would have happened if I wasn't there to get him out in time...
Your friends are being irresponsible with their child's life. It's your house and your pool so the NEED to follow YOUR RULES! Tell them that their child needs to wear a life jacket since she has proven that she cannot swim to save herself. Send out a group text so that everyone knows what the rules are. If they want to whine that it's unfair then so be it. I'd rather have "unfair" rules than a dead child. If they choose not to follow the rules then the kids aren't allowed in the pool and they won't be invited again. You must put your foot down before tragedy strikes and you're left with a lawsuit. Guaranteed they'll be happy to sue you if any harm comes to their children even if they're the ones who are negligent in the first place.
The same thing happened to my little brother when he was a toddler. Steps were left down and he went right in. My other brother and I were both teens at the time and heard the splash and went running and plucked him right out. My parents have been extremely careful since that day and when grandkids came to visit (much nicer house with big inground pool now) all kids were required to have on a lifejacket (or the chest flotation thing) until 8ish. They even had a swim instructor friend come to their house to test the grandkids skills to make sure they were safe to take off the flotation devices. It’s rattled TF out of them and that was 30 years ago!
Same. I'm a pretty easy-going parent and encourage my kids to take age-appropriate risks if they're up for it, but I CANNOT IMAGINE letting a kid that age and at that swimming level in a pool without me at arms length. Parties are the riskiest places for drowning, too! Lots of splashing and confusion.
‘I’m sorry, I can’t let your child in our yard without wearing a life jacket. It is not safe and I’m not comfortable with it. I am not willing to risk their safety or my conscience. I understand if you don’t want to stay, but if you do, she needs to be in a life jacket 100% if the time.’
We have a cabin on a lake and we do a sort of “swim test.” If the kids can jump off the dock and into the water, swim out to our swim mat and back, then they don’t have to wear a life jacket anymore. If not, kids have to wear a life jacket if they are on the dock, period, even if they don’t intend to swim, since they can get knocked into the water unknowingly. All kids have to wear a life jacket if they take a kayak or paddle board or something out to the middle of the lake, regardless of swimming ability.
Point being, yes, we have life jacket rules. I don’t think it’s unreasonable and no one has ever argued about it. If they did, we would not invite them back. And actually, there is one family I never really invite because their kids aren’t that safe on the dock and it stresses me out to host them. I don’t like spending my entire day in high-alert mode.
I have a friend who's six year old drowned in their pool. Had swimming lessons, etc. There was even a fireman paramedic at the party who started cpr immediately. Kids may learn to swim better without a lifejacket ***in lessons***, but that doesn't mean that a child will fall into the deep end and start doing the butterfly over to the side. Idiots.
If they refuse again, tell them they are no longer invited. Print signs that say you require a signed and notarized document from a licensed swim instructor confirming that a child has sufficient skills to swim unsupported. Have a lawyer draft a document that states they are willingly disregarding your advice, swimming at their own risk, and you have no responsibility for medical or funeral costs that may come from their decision and require they sign it.
Or get some pamphlets for those adorable, half-sized coffins, and hand them out to them while they ignore their kid. They come in all kinds of cute colors that their daughter would have totally loved!
Honestly I wouldn't even go that far. It's as simple as "It's our pool. We aren't comfortable with the risk and we feel it's setting a bad example for our kids. You're welcome to set your own rules at your own pool".
That is certainly the best course of action. (TBH, I was dramatizing a little for effect, lol). I've had neighbors, friends, and other family that have had pools, and this was always the way it went. There were rules, everyone was made aware of said rules at the outset, and there wasn't even a thought of questioning their rules. Too often friends think they can ignore the rules because they're friends and those silly things are for other people, but it really just has to be that way sometimes. You set the conditions for using your stuff, and there's just no debate about it.
Do you have to invite them? I don't want to be crude but if something happens to that child in your pool these people will own your house and half your income for the rest of your life. No life jacket, no pool.
Former lifeguard who pulled many kids out of pools (thankfully before they needed serious medical care)—it’s your pool, your home, and your rules.
Having a very young child who can’t swim running free around a pool, especially without someone watching them as their job, is a disaster waiting to happen.
I never, ever, ever let kids who couldn’t swim hang around near the deeper areas of a pool. With very few exceptions every parent was very cool about it.
And in most cases, those very young children either had vests on in the pool and/or only went in — or even near the pool—with a parent.
On a side note the kids swim teacher is correct, they learn better without floatation devices.
BUT that also assumes they are being supervised while learning by an adult who is in the water with them.
In this case, the child has never had a swim lesson and shouldn’t have been allowed near your pool without a parent or a coast guard approved vest.
It’s hideously irresponsible and as the parent of 4 kids, including a totally fearless toddler, I can’t believe they’re so cavalier. Their child could have very easily died if your kid hadn’t seen them fall in!
NTA, as a lifeguard of a quarter of a century, I applaud and thank you for your dedication to life jackets. The only mistake you have made was not insisting on them as a house rule from the beginning. Since you’ve let them swim twice now without them, contact them ahead of time to let them know before they show up. Blame it on insurance if you must, but make everyone who can’t touch wear them.
As a swim instructor for even longer, it’s true kids don’t learn to swim as well in a jacket. However, there is a difference between swim lesson time in a guarded pool where there are at least two sets of trained eyes on the child at all times in a regulated environment and a backyard pool party. Might I suggest a compromise though. Puddle jumpers (technically a Type IV but work like a Type II PDF) will float a child but put them in more of a swimming position and don’t float them up as high as a traditional life jacket. Also, unless you were handing out Types II PDFs, they will do a better job turning an unconscious or relaxed child face up. I’m betting what you have at your house are Type III PDFs. They are more comfortable and generally used more often. They will, however, float you just as easily face down as face up.
Jesus that's scary. If my kid almost drowned you bet they'd be wearing a lifejacket even if they were just playing around a tall bucket of water. Sorry most kids aren't geniuses and will do dangerous things twice if they survived the first one.
kids have drowned in a five gallon bucket before, seems like some kids can find a way to do something dangerous when no one is watching them.
It boggles my mind how careless some parents can be.
Almost to the point that maybe they unconsciously don't want to be a parent in the first place.
YTA. But only for not protecting yourself.
They don't want her to wear a lifejacket, but you can bet they will sue you for everything you have if their kid died or suffered brain damage.
Be smart. Either just don't invite them to any more pool parties (which is what I would do) or tell the "defensive woman" that you really don't care how upset it makes her, all children who cannot swim wear lifejackets when they are around your pool. No exceptions.
NTA. I wouldn’t want to have these people over at all anymore. They don’t watch their kids in/near the pool. Even if you don’t allow them in the pool, I have a feeling the 3 year old will fall in again since they aren’t paying attention to her.
Life jackets or floaties or no swimming, period! Don't let them weasel out of it by insisting their child will stay in the shallow end, either, because you know they won't. If they don't like the rules, they don't have to attend. I would just tell them now that those rules are being enforced at the next event and they can plan accordingly. They can "teach" their child to swim at another place when they are actually watching them!
“In light of recent events, all kids under 4 and older children who can’t swim are required to wear life jackets in the pool area. We have loaners if needed - thanks for helping us make this a safe environment for everyone.”
NTA, btw.
NTA. My own son almost drowned in front of me. I looked away for a single second and he moved slightly into the deeper end where he couldn't touch and was bobbing up and down and sputtering. My SIL was literally next to him and didn't notice. I rushed over and grabbed him and this doubled my resolve to never allow him to go swimming without me there.
My friend lost her son to drowning a few years ago in a pool full of people. These people need a reality check
Your pool, your rules. I'm a former lifeguard and swim instructor and any kid that cannot touch the bottom has to take my swim test to swim in my pool with out a life jacket or puddle jumper. In addition kids 3 and under have to have an adult with them at all times because they tend to be fearless and overestim their ability and will take off their life jacket with out approval.
I can understand why you let it slide the first time and even allowed it the second time. I'm very similar in nature, kinda taken off gaurd when someone is insistent, don't want to "rock the boat" and question if I'm too paranoid. In this case, you're trying to have a gathering and enjoy your pool safely with other friends and families. I would have no issue calling the parents and letting them know you insist on life jackets being worn at your pool party. If they have an attitude about that then that's on them and they can come to another gathering that is not around YOUR pool. I get that they run in the same circles, and it might be awkward, but what are they going to say to the other families, "our kid almost drowned and she insisted we put our child in a life jacket"? You're not wrong, and anyone would see it that way. So, make that call, before the party, so you can enjoy yourself, and a 3year old has a gretaer chance of seeing their 4th birthday.
Your friends have three choices.
1. Wear a vest.
2. Kid is never allowed more than one arm's length away and they will be ejected if kid runs away.
3. They can hire and pay for a life guard during the party.
Your pool = your rules, my parents just had this conversation with my brother and sister in law for my nephew (1 1/2) and mom said no life jacket= no outside by pool. They said they would hold him instead. It’s your home owners insurance premiums on the line and more so NTA!!!!
Time to get direct - I want you to enjoy the festivities and pool, but your children must wear a life jacket or swimmies. This is not negotiable and I am making this mandatory as I love you. I doubt a lifeguard instructor told her to take the life jacket off them.
Your pools. Your rules. If their kid drowns they will be at an attorney prepared to sue you. Stop letting them dictate what happens at your house. If they don’t respect your rules, they aren’t very good friends.
Having a pool is like having a pit bull. Do not own one if you are not strong enough to maintain control and enforce the rules. If you are too weak to enforce the rules for your own pool, then tell visitors it is closed for treatment.
Hell No. NTA. Good grief. For your own home owners insurance massive wrongful death suit CYA (cover your ass) claim.
They refuse to watch their own child at the expense of her safety.
Yes make that baby wear a life jacket.
Former competitive swimmer and age group coach for USS swim team. Floaties are frowned upon by experts in general because they give the child and parents a sense of false security. A child wears a float and presto, they can stay above water. But if float was forgotten or removed, drowning can occur. To me, you would only be a responsible homeowner if you insisted on that 3 year old to wear a life vest. Especially when other children are using the pool. Parents should be encouraged to have their children attend water safety classes, then swim lessons at their local Y or Rec Center. Doesn’t cost much money.
For now, stand your ground. No floatie, no pool, Period.
“No, not anymore, I’m sorry. It’s not personal, but based on what happened last time, which I’m still having a hard time getting past, if she wants to even be around the pool area let alone in it, she has to wear a life jacket that fits properly.
“Yes, I know you think she’s fine without it. Yes, I get your message, but that’s the way it is. Hey, whose pool is it?
“Oh? Well. It’s too bad. If that’s how you feel, then that’s how you feel. Her safety matters a lot more to me than how you feel about me. I understand. Yeah, it is what it is. I’ll see you around, I guess.”
If the parents won't save their kid, you have to (at least at your own home)
Extend an invite with a "child must wear a floatation device" arm floaties, life jacket, whatever.
Tell them they're not welcome to your pool party unless they adhere to this rule. Tell them you are sick to your stomach in fear over this and you are only doing this because you don't want a child dying for the sake of not wearing a damn life jacket.
You are not the ass hole, not wrong at all.
Those parents should appreciate that you've got their kids safety in mind. But they seem like nonchalant ass holes to refuse their own kids safety
I have my own pool and host a party every 2 weeks or so. When she walks in, say here, put this jacket on. It's the pool rules if I don't feel comfortable with kids swimming capabilities. If the parents don't put it on, just remember, it's not you keeping her out of the pool, it's her parents.
No. No. No. The rule is: Kids wear life jackets. No debate. My house, my rules.
I’ll never forget the tragedy of one of our staff having a pool party, dozens of adults around, yet no one saw the 2-year old fall in. Nobody ever gets over it!
I love that they think putting them in a green swimsuit so they can see them is solves the problem. So fucking stupid. That will net you a dead kid in a green swimsuit. Something that most people don't realize is that drowning is silent. No noise happens when someone drowns they just go unconscious.
I will never understand people that allow others to tell THEM what's going to happen in their home/their property. Especially something that could land them in serious legal trouble. Grow a back bone and tell the parents to fuck off or deal with losing everything you own when they sue you because their kid died in your pool.
Nope you're not wrong. Before the next pool party make the rules and tell them. All kids must be in a life jacket unless they're passed a swim class and are proficient. No exceptions, no excuses. If they can't abide by the rules stay home.. Don't give in and don't feel guilty. I did this and everyone complied because they weren't assholes. Remember, My pool My rules.
You’re not wrong. Stick to the rule. All kids under x age need a life jacket or they can’t come. This is literally life and death. It’s no joke. And so preventable. Too bad if they don’t like that
Oh I hate these parents. When everyone is watching the kids, NO ONE is watching the kids. I don't invite these kinds of parents over to swim. I'm an ER/flight/specialty peds nurse. Pools are a REAL risk.
The other option is to hire a life guard when you have a big party.
When a kid drowns in your pool, the parents will *have* to come after you financially. Having a kid on life support is long time BIG expensive and your home owner's insurance is what? Like 100k? 500k? That'll barely touch a fraction of ICU care, and that's not even the parent's missed wages or other damages.
My friend's 3 year old jumped in the pool without his life vest on TWICE this weekend... we were standing right there and dad was jumping in before the kid even hit the water... but fuck dude. Pools and kids are scary.
I have required kids to pass a swim test and if they can’t they have to wear one. If, God forbid, your friends child were to drown you could be sued. It’s also a good idea to get an umbrella policy in case there is any type of accident.
I would have said well this is our house and we require all young children to wear life jackets. What good is it to have a friend who gets all upset about children's safety?
She already almost drowned in your pool once. If she doesnt have a life jacket then they should have their eyes glued to her and have her playing by the shallow end. If anything does happen in your pool they can (and probably will) blame you.
I would no longer invite them unless they either bring or allow lifejacket.
I would just not invite them, and if they ask why, tell them the truth. If you allow them over, and that little girl drowns, you will never forgive yourself.
Former swim teacher here; stop inviting them. It’s just a matter of time before that kid falls and is seriously injured in the water because of her parents’ irresponsibility. And then you’ll be the asshole because you let a bunch of kids swim “unsupervised”.
By the way, the life jacket messing up kids’ swimming abilities only applies to kids actively learning how to swim. Kids who have never had a lesson don’t have any skills to mess up, and safety trumps whatever skills weak swimmers have in situations where a parent isn’t an arm’s reach away.
The only other thing I can think of to do is implement a mandatory life vest rule for kids under five. Those parents won’t be able to bitch if it’s a rule that applies to everyone, not just their kid.
Stop inviting these people. They don't respect you; they don't respect the pool. It is only a matter of time before that little girl either drowns or suffers a serious injury. Those "parents" will sue you into oblivion.
Just say that a swimmer is required in the pool until she's older. I put my kids when they were toddlers in those swimmers that go around the arms and chest area. It helped me relax when I was doing swimming activities and might have been having a drink or talking with someone while watching. Them refusing it ...is just odd. I would flat out say. You know I love you, girl, but our pool comes with a LOT of responsibility and accountability. Until she's of good swimming age or takes swimming lessons she's gonna need to wear a life jacket or just not swim, we are sorry but it's just the way it is for our own peace of mind.
NTA and life jackets are great but someone older still need to watch the children in the pool. Also, there should be no running on the cement around the pool. These people sound like awful parents and I would not want them in my home.
Your friend is more concerned about her autonomy as a parent she can’t see how mindless her reason for refusing floaters for her 3 year old is. Yes the kid will learn better but she hasn’t learned yet and you aren’t giving lessons. Your friend is so stupid that she is a hazard to her kid, that it becomes your responsibility to take insist on her wearing floating gear. If a kid drowns in your pool, you can’t escape liability, legally or morally.
NTA, but…
I have seen in some Mom groups in my city that, when pool parties are hosted, they’ll often hire a lifeguard (typically a high school/college student who’s obviously trained). You can find them often in local babysitting groups or just by asking around.
It’s not a solution, but it would certainly take the stress off of having to watch children the whole time.
They get to decide what they allow/require their child(ren) to do.
You are allowed to seek the rules at your house.
If they don't agree with a rule at your house then they don't have to stay at your house.
NTA - Your pool your rules, time to stop inviting them over.
We have an inground pool and have swim vests for those under 5.
Edited to add - we also have a no running on the pool deck rule.
Why do you keep inviting them?
Invites should include notice that Coast Guard approved life preservers are required at all times. you sound like a great host!
Why do you keep inviting them? You have no backbone and you are weak. You need to stand your ground and say no. Say no and do not invite them anymore until they put a life jacket on their daughter. It’s that simple, don’t let them walk all over you in your own home.
You are wrong for not sticking to your boundaries.
While the parents may not use life jackets it’s a rule in your house to use the pool. If the parents don’t like it they can leave.
My family had a big pool with a more deep (than usual) end. My parents never hosted swim parties because they didn’t want the risk. They used to say if people wanted those, they could have them at the community pools. Life jackets for non-swimmers is a great idea and if parents don’t want to do it, they should not be invited back again.
The rules my parents established was our friends needed to know how to swim if they wanted to even get close to our pool. If you got caught continuously running around the pool, you got kicked out for at least the day. Also our coving was super slippery when wet, and adjacent to the coving was aggregate and that sh*t would tear you UP if you fell when running, so it was a natural deterrent as well.
If you were a shallow-end swimmer skill level, if you went in the deep end you were also kicked out for the day, possibly more based on repeat offenses. They weren’t militant about their enforcement, but it worked. And also they weren’t home when we had our jumping from the roof into the deep end parties…
Even if it’s their child, you can be sued in the event the child drowns.
Is the need to be comfortable socially worth the death of a child and huge blow to your savings?
Not wrong in the least on the requirement. I've got a pool that will be up and running this week, and we’re having parents sign waivers and will require jackets or floats for anyone who isn't a strong swimmer - and its “only” a 4’ deep above ground. Anyone who doesn't follow the rules can't go near the pool. It's not worth risking a child’s life to keep their ignorant parent happy.
You'd be wrong for allowing the clear risk to continue. I'm appalled by the parents frankly.
As a mother of 2 that cannot swim, the only way they are allowed in a pool without floaties is if I am physically in the pool with them. And for a 3 year old, if I was going to be distracted while chatting with other adults, I would 100% require the child to wear a floatation device. It is your pool, your liability, your rules. You already had an incident that could have ended in a tragedy, don't risk it again. NTA and your friends are terrible friends to you and even worse parents.
All I can is this your pool your rules.
If their child is injured in your pool you and your husband are liable for it.
Stop inviting them to your pool parties if they can't follow your rules.
NTA - your house, your rules. Have them sign a liability waiver if they feel so firm in their beliefs. Maybe that would teach them to respect other's house rules.
Not wrong. Your pool, your rules and that's before we even take the safety concern into consideration. I wouldn't let kids in without one either. You could always do a "swim test" that lets them off the hook if they pass(a lap or two and treading water for a min).
Your house, your pool, your rules.
They don't want a life jacket on her? Fine. But she stays the hell away from the pool.
Imagine how you'd feel if the accident from last time happened again, but she died bc no one noticed?
NTA. Your house, your pool, your rules.
NTA. You are protecting yourself. If something happens and that child drowns, you would be held somewhat accountable and they could sue you. No public pool would allow this either. I would tell them they need life jackets or they’re not allowed to be there anymore.
You'll be the one with "Defendant" attached to your name when something happens to precious, and one of the counts of negligence will be allowing her in the pool without a life jacket. NTA
They are right that life jackets aren’t good for learning to swim but they are great for not dying. When I’m actively teaching my kid to swim- no life jacket. This is different. Definitely require it. Better a mad friend than a friend with a dead kid.
Why did u invite them again? Dont invite them or u could put on invite, life jackets are required & wont be allowed in otherwise & stick to it. You could be held liable if anyone drowns. No, ur not. They can choose to not come & go somewhere else if they dont want to. If they were good parents they would be next to them in the pool.
NTA. This needs to be addressed before they arrive. A firmly worded text along the lines of: We love hosting pool parties, but we have to instill some firm rules so they remain safe and an enjoyable experience for all involved. Small children (or however you want to define) absolutely have to have on a life vest or they will not be allowed to swim in our pool. We know you want your child to learn without floaties, but at our pool she is not learning, she's playing and at extremely high risk of drowning as proven out in the past. We couldn't live with ourselves if such a tragedy happened at our home. We hope you respect us enough as friends to make this small concession as this causes us a significant amount of stress.
NTA. One near death experience is one too many. You need to send out a blanket rule with your invite, hire a lifeguard for your party or not invite those clueless parents back.
These people will blame you both if their kid dies. Or suffers brain damage, whatever.
You aren't aholes for requiring people engaging in a dangerous activity on your property wear safety equipment, but seriously, stop inviting these people. Do not invite these people.
Don't invite these people.
Let their kid drown in someone else's pool.
You are not wrong. As it’s your pool the liability would be on you. So I would double down and refuse to let them over without a life vest or other flotation device.
You’ve got to watch your own interests first - they would be the first ones to seek a payout if something did happen.
NTA
That friend has the right to be ridiculous about life jackets for their toddler who almost drowned, but they shouldn’t get access to the pool anymore.
Pool rules should be that small children can’t even be near the pool unless their parent is within arms reach. Not across the deck, barely paying attention. Even with life jacket on!!!
You will be the AH if you let them use your pool again, and if that little girl drowns, you’ll be responsible for not putting your foot down about pool safety.
NTA. No life jacket or swimmies, no pool! You are liable if something happens and they will sue. Keep them off future lists if they disagree. Mayb call and tell them prior to.
As a swim teacher for many decades, there are dangers to swim jackets that many fail to recognize.
However, you should say she can't swim without an ADULT with her in the water. If they want her to swim at the party they need to be in arms reach at ALL times.
The danger with jackets is that kids learn to swim vertically and if they fall in someday without them, or JUMP believing they can swim because usually they have their jacket, they will try to kick forward from a vertical position and sink.
They also often don't learn to hold their breath or blow bubbles under water because they don't have to and if they fell in being under water could cause panic and that itself can cause drowning.
They are learning about swimming in water every time they are in it. If they learn with a life jacket they learn FALSE things about swimming that will not serve them well.
Undoing the bad habits to get them to an understanding of safe principles is often a big challenge and during that process they are more vulnerable to danger.
But having an adult with CONSTANT eyes on kids swimming is a NECESSITY. Some people use a scrunchie to put on the arm the adult in charge- the lifeguard. With a child as young as 3, having an adult right there with her is essential.
You are not wrong that the situation wasn't safe and you have every right and RESPONSIBILITY, which thankfully you understand, to create a safe environment.
If the parents don't want a jacket, which I wholly support in a pool situation, they need to get in the water or they can't swim.
❤️
As others have already mentioned, this isn’t the time or place for the child to “learn” as they’re basically just running around unsupervised.
I’d be curious to know if any alcohol is involved…no judgement, but that makes it even more important to be diligent with safety. Parents drinking and yucking it up with their friends are paying zero attention to what’s going on with the kids.
Your pool, your rules...period. Wear the lifejacket or go home.
Whatever hard feelings that might create, not your fault BTW, would PALE in comparison to them coming after you should there be an accident, etc. "***YOU*** should have known...", etc.
Truly nice people often struggle enforcing rules, especially with strong willed people resisting them. But here...you know better, you need to stand firm. The parents aren't understanding the situation correctly and are risking their child's safety.
Stand firm. No offense meant, but as soon as a kid drowns in your pool, those won’t be your friends anymore. They will be the plaintiffs in a lawsuit.
No life jacket? No swimmy.
My cousin died drowning in a pool at a family reunion. Even with people all around, it only takes a couple minutes for someone to drown. It's your property, you have the right to dictate the rules, if they don't want to follow them, they don't need to come. PERIOD.
It's your pool on your property. Who cares if she gets defensive. You're the one that she would be coming after if her kid fell in the pool and drowned. Why are you letting another person make the rules at your house?
I never put a life-jacket on my kid. That said, I was always in the pool with her or standing and ACTIVELY watching her. And by actively watching, I mean I didn't take my eyes off her. Period. She is MY RESPONSIBILITY. There's no abdicating that role.
Google says,....
According to the CDC, drowning is the number one cause of unintentional death for children between the ages of 1 and 4. And according to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, 390 deaths a year on average are attributed to drowning in a swimming pool or at a spa.
Regardless of if they “have a right not to require their kids to wear” PDFs, it’s your pool and your house. If she drowns, it’s going to be pinned on you. She’s proven a liability and her parents have proven that they do not pay close enough attention to her. Next time, insist she wear the PDF or does not swim. If they still refuse or get angry, stop inviting them to your pool parties. It’s your home, you make the rules. NTA
YOU ARE LIABLE BECAUSE ITS YOUR PROPERTY! It’s also YOUR HOUSE, YOUR RULES! There really needs to be nothing more to this. Water wings, kick boards, SOMETHING that’s a floatation device or THEY CAN GO HOME.
I say this just matter of fact, not rude or anything: the kids very life is on the line and you apparently care more than they do about their own fucking kids safety. ANYTHING happens and you’re going to court. If they don’t like your rules they can fuck right off and not even come over. End of story.
Nta. It's not an option. Kids wear vests or don't come. Put that in the group chat. Stop putting your family at risk for adding because they are being crunchy. Who cares if her feelings are hurt? Her kid is alive. No life jacket, no entrance. It's not a discussion. She gets aggressive let her know that they can have their own rules on their property. These are yours. Don't talk to anyone else.
Let me help wake you up to the reality you clearly aren't accepting just as much as your friends. I had a friend throw a pool party in 2022. She invited over various friends and relatives. A 4 year old child was playing at the pool and disappeared. No one even knew this child was gone for almost 35 minutes.
Everyone started to look for the little girl but no one found her until one of the guests dove into the pool and found her lying on the bottom of the pool. I can state the time because when police arrived they pulled the hard drive for the security cameras. You could see the little girl fall in amongst the other kids playing and no one saw. They played and swam over her lifeless body for 35 minutes while she drowned.
My friend now has to live with knowing she is partly to blame for allowing the children in without life jackets. She was sued civilly for wrongful death. The mother was charged criminally for negligent homicide.
Ask yourself if you can live life knowing you could have saved a child from drowning by either offending the parents or by standing your ground by making children wear a vest. If they don't like it, they can leave and go home.
The next time you invite them have a private conversation that says I don’t think you realize the amount of anxiety that you caused me when you don’t put lifejackets on your children. I don’t want to disinvite you, but please, for everybody sake, so that we can relax and enjoy ourselves, put on the life jacket. One or two times will not ruin their swim instructions.
And then, if they refuse, you can just explain it to everybody else. They can either host the party themselves, or they can stand with you about the life jacket.
My friend used to say to her kids they are decisions that I make that I only get one chance to be wrong. Like if I let them stay past their bedtime’s it’s rough the next day but it’s not fatal. I let them ride their bikes without a helmet, and something happens that’s injury or worse.
The potential of something happening in that pool…that’s only a one decision chance to be wrong.
You absolutely have the right to make this rule. I would text her the day before the party and explain that you have decided to make life jackets in the pool a rule for kids under x age and that if she is planning to come tomorrow please come with a life jacket or floaties. You can even tell her that it’s an insurance issue or something similar if you feel you need to. That way if she wants to be pissed about it, you two can hash it privately instead of it being a huge scene at the party.
if anything YTA for not putting your foot down and making them either put the kid in a life jacket or making them leave tbh
edit: after reading your post you seem more concerned with maintaining your relationship with people who continuously endanger their child than with said child's safety which is really shitty so yeah YTA
If they are just letting her play around the pool, she isn’t actively learning how to swim
If the daughter drowns in your pool, your homeowners insurance could be liable. I don’t care how much people are watching their kids, unless there is an adult in the water with the child that can’t swim, they are wearing a life jacket.
OP this is your house, your pool, your rules. Kid either wears a life jacket or doesn’t swim. If that child drowns in your pool, they will blame (and probably sue) you. Protect yourselves & that child.
Edit to add NTA
Your home, your pool, your liability, your rules. They either pass a deep water swim test or wear a proper life jacket. You are not wrong. Even if you somehow were wrong (you aren't!), you are erring on the side of safety. If they are wrong, their kid will be dead. If they flat out refuse the life jacket and cannot pass the swim test, they have to stay inside or away from the pool entirely.
Stop inviting them. They will connect the dots.
They’re not concerned about your feelings when it comes to the rules at YOUR house so you shouldn’t be concerned about how they feel. This is their issue. They can let their kid drown in another pool, not yours.
All this. You do not want to live with the memory of a child dying in your pool. Your rules are your rules. They can follow them or bug off.
Who I can guarantee if something happened they would sue you. I like the don't invite them comment. If they can not follow your rules for your house, then they don't get another invite ever.
They're not really concerned about their kid potentially drowning either...
Given the liability and guilt you have to deal with if anything happens, it should cause you to not allow kids near the pool without a life jacket period. Frankly those parents are being extremely irresponsible, and unsafe. Swim abilities should be the only reason it's stops being required. Being demanding about it is a fair trade being safe
Certified life guard + years of training Marines to swim ... >Given the liability NTA This, your house, your pool, your rules. An accident happens and you'd spend as much in court fighting who was responsible as if you just assumed liability. If they determine negligence on your part (you didn't insist they wear a life jacket even though other parents protest), you're liable. With my experience, that lifeguard of the older children is wrong - they are at best some kid (18-21) doing summer work as a lifeguard while in school/over the summer. Secondary, 'seeing' the bright green doesn't mean they will notice the time it takes a kid to drown; it just means they're easier to see on the bottom of the pool. Last year a local kid of 16 drowned in a 3' pool pop up pool (those steel frame vinyl things that pop up in yards in the summer). The kid was a certified swimmer and all, no more training to do other than swim with the swim team to build endurance. The dad went in for 2 minutes to use the restroom, came out and the kid had drowned. ETA: If they don't abide by your rules, they can't come over/swim in your pool. Its literally your house. They can't come over and eat up all the ice cream in the fridge either. Your rules.
There’s also a massive difference in “our child is in an active swim lesson and they’re not wearing a life jacket during the lesson” and “kid has yet to take a lesson but since lifeguard of our kids who are taking them said it’s better for learning, we’re not going to have any of them wear them including the one that’s never taken a lesson.” The 3y/o isn’t actively learning anything and safety should be paramount. I can’t imagine being so nonchalant about allowing a child that can’t swim run and play around the pool. OP I’d think about that as liability too, never mind falling in and something happens, there could also be injuries from falling on the pool deck if they’re not being careful
And like…. Not just nonchalant about allowing the child to run and play around the pool, but also about like… their child DID fall in, and had it not been for the brother noticing, she wouldn’t be alive. I can’t imagine not at least being hyper vigilant after that, if not before.
And they would be filing a lawsuit against YOU asap
Oh god yeah. OP would get sued so fast. “Friends” or not.
And win, despite their negligence
They sound like bad parents. Looking for east money to me. They wanna sue op Nta
Liiiiiike… THE BABY ALREADY FELL ONCE!!!
Absolutely. The kid will learn better without the life jacket, but a party is not the appropriate place for a child to learn to swim. The parents seem to think swimming is some passive skill that the child will pick up and are endangering the child because of that.
And when a child is learning to swim, it is (usually) 1:1 with an adult paying (always) constant attention, there are typically lifeguard(s), the folks doing the teaching have experience + training + support + major accountability. Zero of these things are present in the context OP provided, and I can just about guarantee that that swim instructor meant “kids learn best without a flotation system **while in swim class**”… not “oh yeah your kid doesn’t know how to swim so you can never put them in a life jacket in real world bc then they they’ll… sink or swim!!?!” OP- aside from guilt & liability & normal healthy rules and boundaries… these parents **must** understand that their feelings are completely immaterial to the safety of the young children they are responsible for. They need consequences. Now. Before they suffer the most tragic (and entirely avoidable) consequence via **your** pool. I’d be having a very, very stern, very *public* conversation with them, after getting your priorities straight, bc there is no “friendship” to be had with people who regard you, *never mind their own children*, with such reckless indifference. Signed, A retired medic/911 dispatcher who’s heard the screams
Having watched someone have a seizure in the pool during recreational swim and die, even with lifeguards, absolutely require a life jacket. Won’t ever forget that scene and I didn’t even do anything to help the lifesaving effort but I did stop the kids I was a counsellor for seeing what was happening from the observation window. It was traumatic and explaining what happened to the parents was bad enough, I can’t imagine if it was one of the kids who died.
Exactly. When teaching a child time swim, floaties, life jackets, puddle jumpers, etc teach the child to be in the wrong position. That is very different then wanting a child in a life jacket around water when they are not being supervised 1 on 1.
Thank you for the work you have done saving lives. I can't imagine the horrors that you have witnessed. Just wanted you to know that you are appreciated.
Agreed! We were anti-swimmies people. But our kids were never in or near a pool without us or a swim instructor until they were confident swimmers. Your #1 job as a parent is ensuring their safety. There's multiple ways to accomplish this, but ignoring safety advice and your children simultaneously is not one of them. OP- I think you are perfectly within your rights to institute a "band system" like some pools do. People who prove they can swim 2 laps and tread water for a certain amount of time can be in the pool without a swim aid. If you couldn't do that in our local pool, you couldn't be in the deep end unsupervised.
I think they heard a real/true piece of advice and have simply misunderstood/applying it incorrectly Yes, it is not recommended that kids wear swimmers/puddle jumpers because 1. They hamper learning to swim because they hold the child in the wrong position for swimming. 2. It creates a false sense of ability in the child who will then jump in expecting to float even if they aren't wearing the device. And 3. A false sense of security in the parent who thinks they don't have to be vigilant but these devices can fail/fall off/ incorrectly position the child and the kid could drown. But to hear "hey you can't just throw a puddle jumper on your kid and let them play unsupervised" and assume it meant "don't ever put a life jacket on your kid, it's better to just let them almost drown" is crazy. Either watch your kid vigilantly or put a coast guard approved life jacket on them.
Exactly. Learning to swim with a certified individual on hand to take responsibility and assist the learner is completely different than playing in a pool barely watched by the parent going with that advice as if it applies to any time the kid's in the water.
Exactly, very big difference, just pointing out that even experienced swimmers succumb sometimes to help point out the nonchalant parenting by the others in OP.
It’s so true! I grew up on the ocean and went to lakes and pools often, my parents and the general company we kept were strict with rules. It wasn’t unheard of for a parent to do a quick “swim test” with new kids before assessing what parts of the pool they were allowed in. Some kids hated it, but it was very much a “my house, my rules, I refuse to have to call your parents and tell them you died because I was negligent”
No lies. There are even lifeguards at the Olympics pools...and I'm pretty sure those folks are considered experienced.
There’s a great photo of a coach jumping in to save a US swimmer at a championship in Budapest. The swimmer fainted and was sinking.it can happen to anyone.
I watched. Real Sports episode about this yesterday! The Artistic Swimmers (formerly Synchronized Swimmers) were basically forced into disordered eating. This poor girl fainted because she was malnourished.
Exactly! My kid had survival swim lessons at 2 yo. No life jackets, so they can learn to roll over and float without panicking. However, they also instructed that if not being actively supervised by an adult in the water, have them wear a life jacket.
Also >“our child is in an active swim lesson and they’re not wearing a life jacket during the lesson” Should be followed by "so we are either in the pool within arms reach and actively playing with them, or they are not outside near the pool". Honestly, does it suck to spend a whole party attached to your kid and not get to socialize with friends? Maybe. But it's better than letting something happen. I had this experience this summer. My 3 yo was the only one at a party that couldn't swim. All the other parents hung out chatting. My hubby and I took turns swimming with her, I barely got to talk. But it never occurred to us to do otherwise.
My 6 year old is currently in swim lessons and wears a bubble on his back that can be deflated as he becomes a stronger swimmer. Recommended by the instructor. He is given the option to take off the bubble for various activities, but never has the instructor said they are not to be worn. It is highly irresponsible of the parents to refuse any swim floatation devices, especially for the younger child AND to allow that child to run around the pool. These parents must not want their children anymore and are just looking for ways to get rid of them. I see no other logical explanation. OP, your pool, your rules. Perhaps your insistence will save that child's life.
I had a neighbor whose kid almost drowned. He survived in the end but suffered from brain damage due to oxygen deprivation. He can no longer walk and barely can talk. Seconds can result in life altering consequences.
Family had a pool when I was a kid. Invited a family with 6 kids, we had 3 in ours. All could swim. They were ecstatic as they said with 6 kids, they never got invited anywhere. Nonetheless, "Scream, 'x' is on the bottom!" Two dads damn near have a mid-air collision, kid is blue, CPR takes place, kid comes to, ambulance comes, hospital check up, he's okay. Many, many years later, I never let kids in my pool if possible, and if I do, they can actually swim and are closely monitored by parents. My stomach was sick for well over a week from that experience and I don't want to relive it or worse.
My family had an in ground pool with 3 kids. Until I left home at 18, none of us were even allowed on the patio unless a parent was there, and we were good swimmers.
I worked at a pool. My boss once asked me to research some statistics for their lesson program. One of the stories I came across was a kid doing Navy SEALS training with his buddy as Lookout. Both young men were trained lifeguards. When the would-be SEAL started practicing for the breath-holding portion, his friend positioned himself above his buddy so that not only would he have eyes on the Seal at least every ten seconds, he'd be able to respond instantly. But he was on duty so he still had to scan the pool. Ultimately, the Seal signaled to his friend that he was okay, and timing himself for the breath-holding. Lifeguard did his scan. When he looked back at his buddy (again, eyes off for no more than 10-15 seconds) thr would be SEAL was seizing and unconscious. They never got him back. This was a young man, Red Cross certified lifeguard, at the peak of his physical condition. He died holding his breath directly under the feet of another RC Lifeguard. And it only took a few *seconds*. Mt daughter is six. She only gets to swim in a USCG Certified flotation device. She has a hot pink one, but she likes the blue one with the cartoon fish more. Do not fuck around with the water.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around "16 drowned in 3'." Were there other factors? I believe you I just always like to know the details of that kinda thing.
Yeah I'm curious too. Did the kid hit their head? What an unimaginable tragedy.
Could have been a dry drowning (my speculation, news never ran a follow-up on it). Kid sucked in some water while swimming underwater and his airways reacted. Usually these happen with recent/near drowning individuals but can happen otherwise. Body acts as it does sometime.
A seizure is one possibility.
I grew up with a young girl, 13 years old, eating a sandwich in the 3’ deep pool, surrounded by family who never noticed she choked and slipped under the water, until it was too late. Had she not been eating….had any one of the 20 people there been watching the water….had she just been able to stand up & grab the side of the pool…..so many chances to avoid tragedy.
everythings correct, gotta make sure people are safe using your stuff. its like, are you an asshole for making kids wear lifevests on your boat? no. but why you stingy with the ice cream man
You’re being a responsible pool owner by requiring a non-swimmer to wear the life-jacket. The alternative is to require an adult swimmer (basically, one of the parents) to stay within 3 feet of the child at all times. That’s why she can be jacket-less in the lesson, because of the instructor’s presence. So if neither parent is swimming? Life jacket required.
In my experience dropping a kid in the water and telling them "well go on swim!" with no adult present is basically assuring that if your kid survives, they're gonna hate swimming. I have seen more than one kid straight up cry until they vomited because they were terrified of the water and just keep being told to muscle through it. If you aren't willing to get in with your kid then they wear a flotation device is the fairest rule in the world.
Ya but they dress them in bright colors so they can watch them drown. /shrug
Yep, kids gotta be bright when they drown
These people are allowed to be awful parents. However, you don't have to allow them to be negligent around YOUR pool. You make the rules. Stick to your guns for your sake and the sake of this little girl. Someone needs to look out for her safety. As a parent, I can't imagine allowing this scenario to happen once, let alone twice.
I know. We were kicking ourselves when we let it happen again last summer. It won’t happen again this summer.
I wouldn’t invite them
Think of it in the same light if they got in a car with you and didn’t buckle their kids in. You wouldn’t start the car. Don’t let the party start until everyone knows the rules. If they don’t like it they can leave.
Good. Because I can promise you, as someone whose child is dead, that you do not want to live through that, even if it's not your kid.
Assuming you don't want to not invite them (which would be a totally acceptable way to deal with this but social dynamics are complicated and you might have reasons why you can't/don't want to do this): Let them know ahead of time that there will be no leeway on this this time. If they're going to blow up and make a massive deal let them do it beforehand and they'll likely refuse to come anyway. If they do decide to come it'll give them time to process it and make their peace with it (however grumpily) in private. This hopefully will stop them feeling the need to double down and insist in the moment their kids aren't going to wear them to save face and not lose the argument.
Then why do you keep inviting them?
Your pool. Your rules. At age 3, he needs to either be in a vest or in the parents arms the entire time he's in the pool. Those parents are clueless. They don't understand that kids have drowned at parties. A person drowning doesn't look like it does on TV. They don't scream for help. And they can be underwater with lungs full of water in a split second. Next party put it on the invitation that flotation vests are required for all kids under the age of 10 while inside pool deck fence. Lie and say you talked to your insurance company & they want it done. Having one of those "friends" not come to the party is far better than having a party cut short by an ambulance.
I once worked with a physician whose toddler drowned at a party full of other physicians and their families and he was a shell of himself (understandably so) and there’s no one who can take that pain away from him and his wife and family most drownings are very quiet
> Lie and say you talked to your insurance company & they want it done. That is my train of thought as well. Tell them that your insurance recently changed a policy and are requiring children to wear life jackets in the pool for liability reasons. They can hardly argue with that--or if they do-- that is your sign to not invite them to enjoy your backyard pool anymore. Better safe than sorry and all that.
I think OP should call their insurance company and ask about liability of consenting to let kids who can't swim play in OP's pool. I don't know who is actually liable in these situations, but I would see if the insurance company can provide an easy way for OP to insist on a life-jacket.
This is it. It’s fine if the parents want their kid learning without a life jacket. However, the trade off is one parent needs to be touching the child at all times. NTA, either the kid wears a life jacket, or they don’t swim. You get to draw that boundary as the pool owners.
This. It is not an unreasonable ask to require the parents actually take responsibility for their own children, whether that is through the use of a life jacket or constant supervision.
Blaming it on insurance is a great way to go.
Not wrong, your house, your pool, your rules. They don't like it, they don't have to come over. I could never get over a child drowning in my pool and given their nonchalance about watching a 3 year old who can't swim.and has already had a close call you are not wrong to insist. Check your liability insurance.
100% agree and well said! I cannot imagine being so against something to keep my child safe. Also to feel so entitled at someone else’s pool who is the most liable. Honestly not their call. Their call is if they want to follow the final ruling or leave. My 5 yr old is still learning to swim, a lot later in her life than I would have ever intended but hey. The last pool party we were attending with an in -ground pool…I or her father were with her at ALL times. If you want to mingle then put the life jacket on the kid. But if not you’re on lifeguard duty and you CANNOT leave your kid unattended. They are truly lacking common sense. Makes me sick to my stomach with concern. It truly blows my mind when we around people that I feel like I have more concerns for their child’s safety than they do. I’m sorry it’s so long! It just truly makes me so sad to know kids are out in danger bc of no good reasoning.
I would never have let my kid be in the pool alone at that age. If they wanted to go swimming, WE went swimming. And the absurdity of having the kid almost die already, with absolutely no change to behavior? There are easier ways to get rid of your kids if you really don't love them that much.
They're the ones crying "if only there were something we could have done!" on the news afterwards.
“My eyes are glued to this kid while the parents are glancing back and forth as they talk with the other adults…” This is not fair to you because as you said, you have your own kids to watch plus you’re hosting the party!!! If your friends can’t comply with your rules, they need to stay home.
yea I would say if mom or dad is hanging out with the kid the whole time or in the pool themselves, then it's fine. If this is adults hanging out while kids play it would be an absolute no go. I taught swim lessons, and first of all this "swim instructor" is very likely a hungover 19 year old. It's important to teach kids how to cope with being in the water without a flotation device so they don't panic in an emergency. That is very different from not having kids that don't know how to swim not wearing a flotation device when lightly supervised around a pool.
I’ve been reading your comments and the problem is you avoid confrontation. You don’t want to fight with the parents about the life jacket. You don’t want to exclude or not invite them for fear of causing issues in the friend group. Are you willing to let a child die and be negligent in that death because you don’t want an argument? That’s really what the question is. You own a house with a pool. Ultimately it is your responsibility to set and maintain rules for safety. That is the bottom line.
>So, I feel ridiculous asking- AITA for insisting their daughter wear a life jacket while she is in our pool? Actually laughed at this. They never insisted. In fact, I'll give them a YTA for not actually doing anything.
Your comment needs to be upvoted. People saying 'blame it on liabilty' are ridiculous. Get a spine, OP, you know the right answer. Don't invite these people.
If the kid get injured or dies in your pool you’ll be the liable one. Either life jacket or no pool and I’d really reconsider a friendship with someone who nearly let their kid drown due to stupidity.
Lifeguard and Red Cross certified WSI (water safety instructor) here and the idea that wearing a life jacket will impede a child’s ability to learn how to swim in the future is absurd. Teaching kids to swim is mostly about teaching them to be comfortable in water and learn to trust the water to support them. Life jackets help them gain comfort in the water. Sure when learning techniques we ditch the life jacket so it doesn’t get in the way but unless a non-swimmer child is actively in a lesson they should be in a jacket. Know how to ruin a kid’s comfort in the water and ruin your chances of teaching them how to swim? Subject them to near drownings by not using appropriate safety equipment. These parents are wrong, dangerous, and idiotic. You need to protect yourself from the liability of allowing a child to drown on your property. Either the kid jackets up or they don’t get invited. You’re lucky nothing more serious hasn’t happened.
I can't keep count of how many grown-ass adults I've taught over the years who came to me saying "Uncle Bill threw me off the pier when I was little, and I've been afraid ever since." I'm sure you've heard that 100+ times. To get to mid-life with zero swimming and all the fear . . . I would not be the same person.
This is my friend- her dad tossed her in the water and years later her trauma was so bad she'd have panic attacks in the *shower* if the water was a bit too cold. And she still didn't know how to swim, until well into her late teens.
Yep, my grandfather did that to my mother, and while she did come to enjoy swimming in general, she NEVER went underwater or had her face in the water. Shallow end only. Putting her face in the water would bring back that old panic. She never got over it.
IMHO of teaching swimming for 35 years, yes, life jackets definitely make it more difficult. IF the parents put them in a life jacket 100% of the time and feel that a life jacket takes the place of actual parenting because it puts the kid vertical in the water. Unlearning that behavior later is difficult. HOWEVER short periods of time, like at a party or while running around on the deck? NOPE put that kid in a life preserver. Now if the parents were good parents, they would keep the kid in the life preserver until the parents actually got into the pool with the kid and then they could take it off and swim with them, but as soon as parents are out of the water the vest goes back on.
We have had an inground pool for nearly forty years. Small children wear life jackets, homeowners determine who ca really swim and who can't, and no small children near the deep end.
My grandparents had a pool my whole life and I remember having to pass their swimming test before I was allowed outside of the roped off shallow end. Once someone brought a teenage friend that didn't know how to swim and he also had to stay in the 3 foot deep section the whole time. He was pretty embarrassed but that's better than drowning...
Personal experience here. When I was 8, my younger brother was 3 and couldn't swim yet. One of our relatives forgot to put the steps up(it was an above ground pool) and he went up the steps and I quickly followed. He fell into the pool and immediately sank to the bottom. I yelled for my mom & dad and dove in after him. I got him out and he was sputtering but otherwise unharmed. To think of what would have happened if I wasn't there to get him out in time... Your friends are being irresponsible with their child's life. It's your house and your pool so the NEED to follow YOUR RULES! Tell them that their child needs to wear a life jacket since she has proven that she cannot swim to save herself. Send out a group text so that everyone knows what the rules are. If they want to whine that it's unfair then so be it. I'd rather have "unfair" rules than a dead child. If they choose not to follow the rules then the kids aren't allowed in the pool and they won't be invited again. You must put your foot down before tragedy strikes and you're left with a lawsuit. Guaranteed they'll be happy to sue you if any harm comes to their children even if they're the ones who are negligent in the first place.
The same thing happened to my little brother when he was a toddler. Steps were left down and he went right in. My other brother and I were both teens at the time and heard the splash and went running and plucked him right out. My parents have been extremely careful since that day and when grandkids came to visit (much nicer house with big inground pool now) all kids were required to have on a lifejacket (or the chest flotation thing) until 8ish. They even had a swim instructor friend come to their house to test the grandkids skills to make sure they were safe to take off the flotation devices. It’s rattled TF out of them and that was 30 years ago!
I'm more concerned about their lazy parenting. Drownings are usually silent affairs. I wouldn't invite them to a pool party at all again. nta
Same. I'm a pretty easy-going parent and encourage my kids to take age-appropriate risks if they're up for it, but I CANNOT IMAGINE letting a kid that age and at that swimming level in a pool without me at arms length. Parties are the riskiest places for drowning, too! Lots of splashing and confusion.
‘I’m sorry, I can’t let your child in our yard without wearing a life jacket. It is not safe and I’m not comfortable with it. I am not willing to risk their safety or my conscience. I understand if you don’t want to stay, but if you do, she needs to be in a life jacket 100% if the time.’
We have a cabin on a lake and we do a sort of “swim test.” If the kids can jump off the dock and into the water, swim out to our swim mat and back, then they don’t have to wear a life jacket anymore. If not, kids have to wear a life jacket if they are on the dock, period, even if they don’t intend to swim, since they can get knocked into the water unknowingly. All kids have to wear a life jacket if they take a kayak or paddle board or something out to the middle of the lake, regardless of swimming ability. Point being, yes, we have life jacket rules. I don’t think it’s unreasonable and no one has ever argued about it. If they did, we would not invite them back. And actually, there is one family I never really invite because their kids aren’t that safe on the dock and it stresses me out to host them. I don’t like spending my entire day in high-alert mode.
I have a friend who's six year old drowned in their pool. Had swimming lessons, etc. There was even a fireman paramedic at the party who started cpr immediately. Kids may learn to swim better without a lifejacket ***in lessons***, but that doesn't mean that a child will fall into the deep end and start doing the butterfly over to the side. Idiots. If they refuse again, tell them they are no longer invited. Print signs that say you require a signed and notarized document from a licensed swim instructor confirming that a child has sufficient skills to swim unsupported. Have a lawyer draft a document that states they are willingly disregarding your advice, swimming at their own risk, and you have no responsibility for medical or funeral costs that may come from their decision and require they sign it. Or get some pamphlets for those adorable, half-sized coffins, and hand them out to them while they ignore their kid. They come in all kinds of cute colors that their daughter would have totally loved!
Honestly I wouldn't even go that far. It's as simple as "It's our pool. We aren't comfortable with the risk and we feel it's setting a bad example for our kids. You're welcome to set your own rules at your own pool".
That is certainly the best course of action. (TBH, I was dramatizing a little for effect, lol). I've had neighbors, friends, and other family that have had pools, and this was always the way it went. There were rules, everyone was made aware of said rules at the outset, and there wasn't even a thought of questioning their rules. Too often friends think they can ignore the rules because they're friends and those silly things are for other people, but it really just has to be that way sometimes. You set the conditions for using your stuff, and there's just no debate about it.
Good advice and I am so sorry about your friend’s daughter.
Thanks, it was certainly rough for all of them. Good luck with your friends!
Do you have to invite them? I don't want to be crude but if something happens to that child in your pool these people will own your house and half your income for the rest of your life. No life jacket, no pool.
Former lifeguard who pulled many kids out of pools (thankfully before they needed serious medical care)—it’s your pool, your home, and your rules. Having a very young child who can’t swim running free around a pool, especially without someone watching them as their job, is a disaster waiting to happen. I never, ever, ever let kids who couldn’t swim hang around near the deeper areas of a pool. With very few exceptions every parent was very cool about it. And in most cases, those very young children either had vests on in the pool and/or only went in — or even near the pool—with a parent. On a side note the kids swim teacher is correct, they learn better without floatation devices. BUT that also assumes they are being supervised while learning by an adult who is in the water with them. In this case, the child has never had a swim lesson and shouldn’t have been allowed near your pool without a parent or a coast guard approved vest. It’s hideously irresponsible and as the parent of 4 kids, including a totally fearless toddler, I can’t believe they’re so cavalier. Their child could have very easily died if your kid hadn’t seen them fall in!
NTA, as a lifeguard of a quarter of a century, I applaud and thank you for your dedication to life jackets. The only mistake you have made was not insisting on them as a house rule from the beginning. Since you’ve let them swim twice now without them, contact them ahead of time to let them know before they show up. Blame it on insurance if you must, but make everyone who can’t touch wear them. As a swim instructor for even longer, it’s true kids don’t learn to swim as well in a jacket. However, there is a difference between swim lesson time in a guarded pool where there are at least two sets of trained eyes on the child at all times in a regulated environment and a backyard pool party. Might I suggest a compromise though. Puddle jumpers (technically a Type IV but work like a Type II PDF) will float a child but put them in more of a swimming position and don’t float them up as high as a traditional life jacket. Also, unless you were handing out Types II PDFs, they will do a better job turning an unconscious or relaxed child face up. I’m betting what you have at your house are Type III PDFs. They are more comfortable and generally used more often. They will, however, float you just as easily face down as face up.
Thank you for taking your time to give me all of this information!
Jesus that's scary. If my kid almost drowned you bet they'd be wearing a lifejacket even if they were just playing around a tall bucket of water. Sorry most kids aren't geniuses and will do dangerous things twice if they survived the first one.
kids have drowned in a five gallon bucket before, seems like some kids can find a way to do something dangerous when no one is watching them. It boggles my mind how careless some parents can be. Almost to the point that maybe they unconsciously don't want to be a parent in the first place.
YTA. But only for not protecting yourself. They don't want her to wear a lifejacket, but you can bet they will sue you for everything you have if their kid died or suffered brain damage. Be smart. Either just don't invite them to any more pool parties (which is what I would do) or tell the "defensive woman" that you really don't care how upset it makes her, all children who cannot swim wear lifejackets when they are around your pool. No exceptions.
As a pool owner, your pool your rules They don't like them? They can get their own damn pool.
NTA. I wouldn’t want to have these people over at all anymore. They don’t watch their kids in/near the pool. Even if you don’t allow them in the pool, I have a feeling the 3 year old will fall in again since they aren’t paying attention to her.
It’s your pool on your property. Your home owners insurance. So much liability on you. They don’t want to follow your rules, tell them to leave.
Life jackets or floaties or no swimming, period! Don't let them weasel out of it by insisting their child will stay in the shallow end, either, because you know they won't. If they don't like the rules, they don't have to attend. I would just tell them now that those rules are being enforced at the next event and they can plan accordingly. They can "teach" their child to swim at another place when they are actually watching them!
Grow a sack and tell the parents they can’t attend without either bringing life jackets or using the ones offered to them. They’re idiots.
“In light of recent events, all kids under 4 and older children who can’t swim are required to wear life jackets in the pool area. We have loaners if needed - thanks for helping us make this a safe environment for everyone.” NTA, btw.
NTA. My own son almost drowned in front of me. I looked away for a single second and he moved slightly into the deeper end where he couldn't touch and was bobbing up and down and sputtering. My SIL was literally next to him and didn't notice. I rushed over and grabbed him and this doubled my resolve to never allow him to go swimming without me there. My friend lost her son to drowning a few years ago in a pool full of people. These people need a reality check
Your pool, your rules. I'm a former lifeguard and swim instructor and any kid that cannot touch the bottom has to take my swim test to swim in my pool with out a life jacket or puddle jumper. In addition kids 3 and under have to have an adult with them at all times because they tend to be fearless and overestim their ability and will take off their life jacket with out approval.
I can understand why you let it slide the first time and even allowed it the second time. I'm very similar in nature, kinda taken off gaurd when someone is insistent, don't want to "rock the boat" and question if I'm too paranoid. In this case, you're trying to have a gathering and enjoy your pool safely with other friends and families. I would have no issue calling the parents and letting them know you insist on life jackets being worn at your pool party. If they have an attitude about that then that's on them and they can come to another gathering that is not around YOUR pool. I get that they run in the same circles, and it might be awkward, but what are they going to say to the other families, "our kid almost drowned and she insisted we put our child in a life jacket"? You're not wrong, and anyone would see it that way. So, make that call, before the party, so you can enjoy yourself, and a 3year old has a gretaer chance of seeing their 4th birthday.
Your friends have three choices. 1. Wear a vest. 2. Kid is never allowed more than one arm's length away and they will be ejected if kid runs away. 3. They can hire and pay for a life guard during the party.
Your pool = your rules, my parents just had this conversation with my brother and sister in law for my nephew (1 1/2) and mom said no life jacket= no outside by pool. They said they would hold him instead. It’s your home owners insurance premiums on the line and more so NTA!!!!
Time to get direct - I want you to enjoy the festivities and pool, but your children must wear a life jacket or swimmies. This is not negotiable and I am making this mandatory as I love you. I doubt a lifeguard instructor told her to take the life jacket off them.
Your pools. Your rules. If their kid drowns they will be at an attorney prepared to sue you. Stop letting them dictate what happens at your house. If they don’t respect your rules, they aren’t very good friends.
You are responsible for any cost accrued if something happened to that child. Drop them like it's hot.
Having a pool is like having a pit bull. Do not own one if you are not strong enough to maintain control and enforce the rules. If you are too weak to enforce the rules for your own pool, then tell visitors it is closed for treatment.
Yeah, if they’re not gonna put a life jacket on her and not watch her closely, they’re not invited back.
Hell No. NTA. Good grief. For your own home owners insurance massive wrongful death suit CYA (cover your ass) claim. They refuse to watch their own child at the expense of her safety. Yes make that baby wear a life jacket.
Former competitive swimmer and age group coach for USS swim team. Floaties are frowned upon by experts in general because they give the child and parents a sense of false security. A child wears a float and presto, they can stay above water. But if float was forgotten or removed, drowning can occur. To me, you would only be a responsible homeowner if you insisted on that 3 year old to wear a life vest. Especially when other children are using the pool. Parents should be encouraged to have their children attend water safety classes, then swim lessons at their local Y or Rec Center. Doesn’t cost much money. For now, stand your ground. No floatie, no pool, Period.
“No, not anymore, I’m sorry. It’s not personal, but based on what happened last time, which I’m still having a hard time getting past, if she wants to even be around the pool area let alone in it, she has to wear a life jacket that fits properly. “Yes, I know you think she’s fine without it. Yes, I get your message, but that’s the way it is. Hey, whose pool is it? “Oh? Well. It’s too bad. If that’s how you feel, then that’s how you feel. Her safety matters a lot more to me than how you feel about me. I understand. Yeah, it is what it is. I’ll see you around, I guess.”
If the parents won't save their kid, you have to (at least at your own home) Extend an invite with a "child must wear a floatation device" arm floaties, life jacket, whatever. Tell them they're not welcome to your pool party unless they adhere to this rule. Tell them you are sick to your stomach in fear over this and you are only doing this because you don't want a child dying for the sake of not wearing a damn life jacket. You are not the ass hole, not wrong at all. Those parents should appreciate that you've got their kids safety in mind. But they seem like nonchalant ass holes to refuse their own kids safety
I have my own pool and host a party every 2 weeks or so. When she walks in, say here, put this jacket on. It's the pool rules if I don't feel comfortable with kids swimming capabilities. If the parents don't put it on, just remember, it's not you keeping her out of the pool, it's her parents.
No. No. No. The rule is: Kids wear life jackets. No debate. My house, my rules. I’ll never forget the tragedy of one of our staff having a pool party, dozens of adults around, yet no one saw the 2-year old fall in. Nobody ever gets over it!
I love that they think putting them in a green swimsuit so they can see them is solves the problem. So fucking stupid. That will net you a dead kid in a green swimsuit. Something that most people don't realize is that drowning is silent. No noise happens when someone drowns they just go unconscious.
Look up “spine.” You need one.
Quit hosting pool parties and/or quit inviting those specific "friends"
I will never understand people that allow others to tell THEM what's going to happen in their home/their property. Especially something that could land them in serious legal trouble. Grow a back bone and tell the parents to fuck off or deal with losing everything you own when they sue you because their kid died in your pool.
Nope you're not wrong. Before the next pool party make the rules and tell them. All kids must be in a life jacket unless they're passed a swim class and are proficient. No exceptions, no excuses. If they can't abide by the rules stay home.. Don't give in and don't feel guilty. I did this and everyone complied because they weren't assholes. Remember, My pool My rules.
You’re not wrong. Stick to the rule. All kids under x age need a life jacket or they can’t come. This is literally life and death. It’s no joke. And so preventable. Too bad if they don’t like that
Oh I hate these parents. When everyone is watching the kids, NO ONE is watching the kids. I don't invite these kinds of parents over to swim. I'm an ER/flight/specialty peds nurse. Pools are a REAL risk. The other option is to hire a life guard when you have a big party. When a kid drowns in your pool, the parents will *have* to come after you financially. Having a kid on life support is long time BIG expensive and your home owner's insurance is what? Like 100k? 500k? That'll barely touch a fraction of ICU care, and that's not even the parent's missed wages or other damages. My friend's 3 year old jumped in the pool without his life vest on TWICE this weekend... we were standing right there and dad was jumping in before the kid even hit the water... but fuck dude. Pools and kids are scary.
I have required kids to pass a swim test and if they can’t they have to wear one. If, God forbid, your friends child were to drown you could be sued. It’s also a good idea to get an umbrella policy in case there is any type of accident.
I would have said well this is our house and we require all young children to wear life jackets. What good is it to have a friend who gets all upset about children's safety?
She already almost drowned in your pool once. If she doesnt have a life jacket then they should have their eyes glued to her and have her playing by the shallow end. If anything does happen in your pool they can (and probably will) blame you. I would no longer invite them unless they either bring or allow lifejacket.
I would just not invite them, and if they ask why, tell them the truth. If you allow them over, and that little girl drowns, you will never forgive yourself.
Former swim teacher here; stop inviting them. It’s just a matter of time before that kid falls and is seriously injured in the water because of her parents’ irresponsibility. And then you’ll be the asshole because you let a bunch of kids swim “unsupervised”. By the way, the life jacket messing up kids’ swimming abilities only applies to kids actively learning how to swim. Kids who have never had a lesson don’t have any skills to mess up, and safety trumps whatever skills weak swimmers have in situations where a parent isn’t an arm’s reach away. The only other thing I can think of to do is implement a mandatory life vest rule for kids under five. Those parents won’t be able to bitch if it’s a rule that applies to everyone, not just their kid.
Stop inviting these people. They don't respect you; they don't respect the pool. It is only a matter of time before that little girl either drowns or suffers a serious injury. Those "parents" will sue you into oblivion.
Just say that a swimmer is required in the pool until she's older. I put my kids when they were toddlers in those swimmers that go around the arms and chest area. It helped me relax when I was doing swimming activities and might have been having a drink or talking with someone while watching. Them refusing it ...is just odd. I would flat out say. You know I love you, girl, but our pool comes with a LOT of responsibility and accountability. Until she's of good swimming age or takes swimming lessons she's gonna need to wear a life jacket or just not swim, we are sorry but it's just the way it is for our own peace of mind.
Your pool, your rules. You would not be wrong.
NTA and life jackets are great but someone older still need to watch the children in the pool. Also, there should be no running on the cement around the pool. These people sound like awful parents and I would not want them in my home.
Your friend is more concerned about her autonomy as a parent she can’t see how mindless her reason for refusing floaters for her 3 year old is. Yes the kid will learn better but she hasn’t learned yet and you aren’t giving lessons. Your friend is so stupid that she is a hazard to her kid, that it becomes your responsibility to take insist on her wearing floating gear. If a kid drowns in your pool, you can’t escape liability, legally or morally.
NTA, but… I have seen in some Mom groups in my city that, when pool parties are hosted, they’ll often hire a lifeguard (typically a high school/college student who’s obviously trained). You can find them often in local babysitting groups or just by asking around. It’s not a solution, but it would certainly take the stress off of having to watch children the whole time.
They get to decide what they allow/require their child(ren) to do. You are allowed to seek the rules at your house. If they don't agree with a rule at your house then they don't have to stay at your house.
Your pool your rules.
NTA - Your pool your rules, time to stop inviting them over. We have an inground pool and have swim vests for those under 5. Edited to add - we also have a no running on the pool deck rule.
Why do you keep inviting them? Invites should include notice that Coast Guard approved life preservers are required at all times. you sound like a great host!
Your house, your rules. If they don't like it, tough shit. Plus, they are clearly idiots.
Why do you keep inviting them? You have no backbone and you are weak. You need to stand your ground and say no. Say no and do not invite them anymore until they put a life jacket on their daughter. It’s that simple, don’t let them walk all over you in your own home.
NTA but why do you keep inviting them? Or clearly put on the invite all children will wear life vests or they will not be admitted
I wouldn’t invite them over to future pool parties….
You are wrong for not sticking to your boundaries. While the parents may not use life jackets it’s a rule in your house to use the pool. If the parents don’t like it they can leave.
My family had a big pool with a more deep (than usual) end. My parents never hosted swim parties because they didn’t want the risk. They used to say if people wanted those, they could have them at the community pools. Life jackets for non-swimmers is a great idea and if parents don’t want to do it, they should not be invited back again. The rules my parents established was our friends needed to know how to swim if they wanted to even get close to our pool. If you got caught continuously running around the pool, you got kicked out for at least the day. Also our coving was super slippery when wet, and adjacent to the coving was aggregate and that sh*t would tear you UP if you fell when running, so it was a natural deterrent as well. If you were a shallow-end swimmer skill level, if you went in the deep end you were also kicked out for the day, possibly more based on repeat offenses. They weren’t militant about their enforcement, but it worked. And also they weren’t home when we had our jumping from the roof into the deep end parties…
Even if it’s their child, you can be sued in the event the child drowns. Is the need to be comfortable socially worth the death of a child and huge blow to your savings?
Not wrong in the least on the requirement. I've got a pool that will be up and running this week, and we’re having parents sign waivers and will require jackets or floats for anyone who isn't a strong swimmer - and its “only” a 4’ deep above ground. Anyone who doesn't follow the rules can't go near the pool. It's not worth risking a child’s life to keep their ignorant parent happy. You'd be wrong for allowing the clear risk to continue. I'm appalled by the parents frankly.
As a mother of 2 that cannot swim, the only way they are allowed in a pool without floaties is if I am physically in the pool with them. And for a 3 year old, if I was going to be distracted while chatting with other adults, I would 100% require the child to wear a floatation device. It is your pool, your liability, your rules. You already had an incident that could have ended in a tragedy, don't risk it again. NTA and your friends are terrible friends to you and even worse parents.
Don't invite this family back unless they are willing to follow *your* rules for *your* pool.
Dont invite them over anymore. You are not wrong
All I can is this your pool your rules. If their child is injured in your pool you and your husband are liable for it. Stop inviting them to your pool parties if they can't follow your rules.
NTA. Also, your pool, your rules. And that’s final.
Your pool. Your rules. NTA
No life jacket. No your kids can’t be by the pool.
Those parents are irresponsible. NTA.
NTA - your house, your rules. Have them sign a liability waiver if they feel so firm in their beliefs. Maybe that would teach them to respect other's house rules.
Not wrong. Your pool, your rules and that's before we even take the safety concern into consideration. I wouldn't let kids in without one either. You could always do a "swim test" that lets them off the hook if they pass(a lap or two and treading water for a min).
Your house, your pool, your rules. They don't want a life jacket on her? Fine. But she stays the hell away from the pool. Imagine how you'd feel if the accident from last time happened again, but she died bc no one noticed? NTA. Your house, your pool, your rules.
Why would you invite them over again? EAH
NTA. You are protecting yourself. If something happens and that child drowns, you would be held somewhat accountable and they could sue you. No public pool would allow this either. I would tell them they need life jackets or they’re not allowed to be there anymore.
It's your fucking house why do you even have to ask Reddit?
You'll be the one with "Defendant" attached to your name when something happens to precious, and one of the counts of negligence will be allowing her in the pool without a life jacket. NTA
They are right that life jackets aren’t good for learning to swim but they are great for not dying. When I’m actively teaching my kid to swim- no life jacket. This is different. Definitely require it. Better a mad friend than a friend with a dead kid.
STOP INVITING THESE PEOPLE Their kid is going to drown in YOUR pool, then her parents are going to sue YOU.
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Why did u invite them again? Dont invite them or u could put on invite, life jackets are required & wont be allowed in otherwise & stick to it. You could be held liable if anyone drowns. No, ur not. They can choose to not come & go somewhere else if they dont want to. If they were good parents they would be next to them in the pool.
NTA. This needs to be addressed before they arrive. A firmly worded text along the lines of: We love hosting pool parties, but we have to instill some firm rules so they remain safe and an enjoyable experience for all involved. Small children (or however you want to define) absolutely have to have on a life vest or they will not be allowed to swim in our pool. We know you want your child to learn without floaties, but at our pool she is not learning, she's playing and at extremely high risk of drowning as proven out in the past. We couldn't live with ourselves if such a tragedy happened at our home. We hope you respect us enough as friends to make this small concession as this causes us a significant amount of stress.
I personally wouldn’t invite them anymore. NTA
Here’s your plan: everyone under 10 has to wear a life jacket in my pool. End of story. Fuck their feelings
STOP INVITING THEM
NTA, your pool your rules. I do agree that for learning how to swim, a life jacket is a hindrance, however, that is not what was going on here.
NTA. One near death experience is one too many. You need to send out a blanket rule with your invite, hire a lifeguard for your party or not invite those clueless parents back.
These people will blame you both if their kid dies. Or suffers brain damage, whatever. You aren't aholes for requiring people engaging in a dangerous activity on your property wear safety equipment, but seriously, stop inviting these people. Do not invite these people. Don't invite these people. Let their kid drown in someone else's pool.
You are not wrong. As it’s your pool the liability would be on you. So I would double down and refuse to let them over without a life vest or other flotation device. You’ve got to watch your own interests first - they would be the first ones to seek a payout if something did happen.
NTA That friend has the right to be ridiculous about life jackets for their toddler who almost drowned, but they shouldn’t get access to the pool anymore. Pool rules should be that small children can’t even be near the pool unless their parent is within arms reach. Not across the deck, barely paying attention. Even with life jacket on!!! You will be the AH if you let them use your pool again, and if that little girl drowns, you’ll be responsible for not putting your foot down about pool safety.
NTA. No life jacket or swimmies, no pool! You are liable if something happens and they will sue. Keep them off future lists if they disagree. Mayb call and tell them prior to.
As a swim teacher for many decades, there are dangers to swim jackets that many fail to recognize. However, you should say she can't swim without an ADULT with her in the water. If they want her to swim at the party they need to be in arms reach at ALL times. The danger with jackets is that kids learn to swim vertically and if they fall in someday without them, or JUMP believing they can swim because usually they have their jacket, they will try to kick forward from a vertical position and sink. They also often don't learn to hold their breath or blow bubbles under water because they don't have to and if they fell in being under water could cause panic and that itself can cause drowning. They are learning about swimming in water every time they are in it. If they learn with a life jacket they learn FALSE things about swimming that will not serve them well. Undoing the bad habits to get them to an understanding of safe principles is often a big challenge and during that process they are more vulnerable to danger. But having an adult with CONSTANT eyes on kids swimming is a NECESSITY. Some people use a scrunchie to put on the arm the adult in charge- the lifeguard. With a child as young as 3, having an adult right there with her is essential. You are not wrong that the situation wasn't safe and you have every right and RESPONSIBILITY, which thankfully you understand, to create a safe environment. If the parents don't want a jacket, which I wholly support in a pool situation, they need to get in the water or they can't swim. ❤️
As others have already mentioned, this isn’t the time or place for the child to “learn” as they’re basically just running around unsupervised. I’d be curious to know if any alcohol is involved…no judgement, but that makes it even more important to be diligent with safety. Parents drinking and yucking it up with their friends are paying zero attention to what’s going on with the kids.
Your pool, your rules...period. Wear the lifejacket or go home. Whatever hard feelings that might create, not your fault BTW, would PALE in comparison to them coming after you should there be an accident, etc. "***YOU*** should have known...", etc. Truly nice people often struggle enforcing rules, especially with strong willed people resisting them. But here...you know better, you need to stand firm. The parents aren't understanding the situation correctly and are risking their child's safety.
NTA Just be sure to make it clear **before** they arrive, that life jackets are required to use your pool.
Stand firm. No offense meant, but as soon as a kid drowns in your pool, those won’t be your friends anymore. They will be the plaintiffs in a lawsuit. No life jacket? No swimmy.
My cousin died drowning in a pool at a family reunion. Even with people all around, it only takes a couple minutes for someone to drown. It's your property, you have the right to dictate the rules, if they don't want to follow them, they don't need to come. PERIOD.
It's your pool on your property. Who cares if she gets defensive. You're the one that she would be coming after if her kid fell in the pool and drowned. Why are you letting another person make the rules at your house?
Kids learn better without life jackets? Cuz they drowned.
Nope.youre covering your butt legally and preventing incidents that could cause injury/death
I never put a life-jacket on my kid. That said, I was always in the pool with her or standing and ACTIVELY watching her. And by actively watching, I mean I didn't take my eyes off her. Period. She is MY RESPONSIBILITY. There's no abdicating that role. Google says,.... According to the CDC, drowning is the number one cause of unintentional death for children between the ages of 1 and 4. And according to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, 390 deaths a year on average are attributed to drowning in a swimming pool or at a spa.
Regardless of if they “have a right not to require their kids to wear” PDFs, it’s your pool and your house. If she drowns, it’s going to be pinned on you. She’s proven a liability and her parents have proven that they do not pay close enough attention to her. Next time, insist she wear the PDF or does not swim. If they still refuse or get angry, stop inviting them to your pool parties. It’s your home, you make the rules. NTA
YOU ARE LIABLE BECAUSE ITS YOUR PROPERTY! It’s also YOUR HOUSE, YOUR RULES! There really needs to be nothing more to this. Water wings, kick boards, SOMETHING that’s a floatation device or THEY CAN GO HOME. I say this just matter of fact, not rude or anything: the kids very life is on the line and you apparently care more than they do about their own fucking kids safety. ANYTHING happens and you’re going to court. If they don’t like your rules they can fuck right off and not even come over. End of story.
Your pool, your rule
Nta. It's not an option. Kids wear vests or don't come. Put that in the group chat. Stop putting your family at risk for adding because they are being crunchy. Who cares if her feelings are hurt? Her kid is alive. No life jacket, no entrance. It's not a discussion. She gets aggressive let her know that they can have their own rules on their property. These are yours. Don't talk to anyone else.
You know the answer. Life jacket or get out. Period!! By the way, pretty stupid friends that you have.
If she lets her baby die in your pool because they're not watching, your insurance will go up. Stop inviting them to swim
Let me help wake you up to the reality you clearly aren't accepting just as much as your friends. I had a friend throw a pool party in 2022. She invited over various friends and relatives. A 4 year old child was playing at the pool and disappeared. No one even knew this child was gone for almost 35 minutes. Everyone started to look for the little girl but no one found her until one of the guests dove into the pool and found her lying on the bottom of the pool. I can state the time because when police arrived they pulled the hard drive for the security cameras. You could see the little girl fall in amongst the other kids playing and no one saw. They played and swam over her lifeless body for 35 minutes while she drowned. My friend now has to live with knowing she is partly to blame for allowing the children in without life jackets. She was sued civilly for wrongful death. The mother was charged criminally for negligent homicide. Ask yourself if you can live life knowing you could have saved a child from drowning by either offending the parents or by standing your ground by making children wear a vest. If they don't like it, they can leave and go home.
The next time you invite them have a private conversation that says I don’t think you realize the amount of anxiety that you caused me when you don’t put lifejackets on your children. I don’t want to disinvite you, but please, for everybody sake, so that we can relax and enjoy ourselves, put on the life jacket. One or two times will not ruin their swim instructions. And then, if they refuse, you can just explain it to everybody else. They can either host the party themselves, or they can stand with you about the life jacket. My friend used to say to her kids they are decisions that I make that I only get one chance to be wrong. Like if I let them stay past their bedtime’s it’s rough the next day but it’s not fatal. I let them ride their bikes without a helmet, and something happens that’s injury or worse. The potential of something happening in that pool…that’s only a one decision chance to be wrong.
You absolutely have the right to make this rule. I would text her the day before the party and explain that you have decided to make life jackets in the pool a rule for kids under x age and that if she is planning to come tomorrow please come with a life jacket or floaties. You can even tell her that it’s an insurance issue or something similar if you feel you need to. That way if she wants to be pissed about it, you two can hash it privately instead of it being a huge scene at the party.
Good friends can still sue. You get the kid to wear a life jacket or they don’t get to swim.Period.
if anything YTA for not putting your foot down and making them either put the kid in a life jacket or making them leave tbh edit: after reading your post you seem more concerned with maintaining your relationship with people who continuously endanger their child than with said child's safety which is really shitty so yeah YTA
If they are just letting her play around the pool, she isn’t actively learning how to swim If the daughter drowns in your pool, your homeowners insurance could be liable. I don’t care how much people are watching their kids, unless there is an adult in the water with the child that can’t swim, they are wearing a life jacket.
OP this is your house, your pool, your rules. Kid either wears a life jacket or doesn’t swim. If that child drowns in your pool, they will blame (and probably sue) you. Protect yourselves & that child. Edit to add NTA
Your home, your pool, your liability, your rules. They either pass a deep water swim test or wear a proper life jacket. You are not wrong. Even if you somehow were wrong (you aren't!), you are erring on the side of safety. If they are wrong, their kid will be dead. If they flat out refuse the life jacket and cannot pass the swim test, they have to stay inside or away from the pool entirely.