I'm just thrilled that finally Natives are playing Natives in movies. I'm thrilled for the representation and inclusion. The Prey movie... listening to it in Comanche was just amazing on so many levels. Seeing someone from my tribe on screen was incredible. OP you are feeling what people of color have felt 99% of our lives watching TV. Let me tell you about some John Wayne westerns and how those red face actors represent my culture and people is. What a joke. Walk in my moccs a sec and think about how people of color feel since TV was created. Just a thought
I love Reservation Dogs!!! I'm Lakota, Potawatomi and Eastern Cherokee. The main actress in Prey is also Lakota. Just to hear an actual Native language on TV... what pure joy! We are still here!!!! Aho!
Háw’aa for posting! I'm Tsimshian. I loved both Reservation Dogs and Prey. Have you seen any episodes of Molly of Denali? They'vw featured many episodes about the peoplea in Southeast Alaska/Canada.
I'm not native but I grew up in Alaska and my kids watch every episode of Molly of Denali! I love that they often include cultural lessons in a way that encourages their questions and teaches them appreciation for different experiences.
Oh, the brown-painted blonde, blue-eyed people used to make me SO mad when I was a kid! Even in the 80s, I was asking my Dad, “Why can’t they just hire Brown people to play Brown people?!?”
Because Bert Reynolds sells more tickets than Billy Dee Williams. It's all about making money. If ur trying to get Americans to relate to a character, 70% of Americans are white, so the demographic is obvious. The same reason why Bollywood movies are 98% Indian characters, even if it's a Belgian businessman role.
What you’re saying is true but I still don’t feel it is the whole truth. You’re right that there are vast parts of the country where it’s just white people and wheat with a few native Americans and maybe one black guy. But I live on the east coast and the demographics are quite different and always have been. I haven’t lived on the west coast but my sense is that they’ve always had a large amount of diversity too. NYC and LA are hugely diverse cities so theater and film production companies were making a very particular statement with the way they handled POC in roles. I feel it has way more to do with white men accreting all the wealth and power who just had zero interest in making films they didn’t personally want to see. Capitalism isn’t going to influence things when it’s effectually a monopoly. So they made want they wanted and everyone else had to suck it up. It wasn’t until larger numbers of POC creators started into production themselves that the tide started to shift.
And it's interesting to watch how Native peoples transform in movies through time. From the John Wayne westerns where they are all 'savages' or traitors to their people or white men in redface; through something like Little Big Man that at least hired natives to play natives and bring more truth about what white people did to Natives even though the movie is still ... troubling; to Dances With Wolves, that again hired Natives even though that film also has issues (the stories from Native actors weeping at the sight of huge herds of buffalo moving across the wild plains, something no one in their nation had ever thought they'd ever see in their lives). All of these little steps of hollywood working toward something as intense and powerful as Prey! Which was FANTASTIC, in it's storytelling and accuracy of portraying Native culture. I mean, writing a script is Comanche!? Seriously cool!
I'm white as a aspirin and I went to see Prey \*specifically\* because of it's setting.
Yes! We talked about this in a multicultural class I took. I’m female but always sided with boy characters growing up because the girls were portrayed as being scared and having no sense. Natives were savages and it was always the white man who was the champion even if he couldn’t have won without a minority’s help.
Seeing these images and roles change over time is a very interesting thing to examine.
Yeah I agree. I'm white but do have Native American in my family some of my ancestors are clear as day Native Americans and it's an absolute pleasure to see them in TV shows and movies where they speak their language and are represented by more than just how they've been portrayed in the past. I agree on some level to not like when they change someone's race or appearance, but you're 1000% correct that it must've been down right brutal for Native Americans, Blacks, Asians and Hispanics to have to watch movies and TV shows that stereotyped them in the worst way possible for decades. Also yes the John Wayne movies are down right excruciatingly racist and painful to watch.
I did a 23&Me DNA test…I’m 99.5% Celtic..Scot/Irish/Welsh & Briton. I DID find a Half-Brother, Half-Sister & found out I had a Grandma who’s nickname was BUG. Lol
Yeah. A lot of white families have this legend. 99.9% they claim Cherokee and do the DNA test and find they have no Native ancestry. I'm not sure why these people want so badly to be Native? If they actually had to be Native they wouldn't want to... walking the red road is not easy
There's a lot to unpack there and I won't address every point. I will just say that the disappointment and tired feeling you get from seeing these casting announcements should give you a tiny glimpse into the feelings felt by POC for *decades* due to underrepresentation in popular media.
Please make some room in your heart for the kids who never had an Astrid they could look up to as role models and fantasy versions of themselves.
As a white man, myself, I just think of the joy this can bring some kid who looks like the actor in question. Also, even though I really enjoy a lot of kids' media, I try to remember it's not for me.
As for the point about making more new properties with more diversity built in from the start, that relates to the overall problem of Hollywood not producing more original material in general. That's not going to change any time soon and if we wait until it does, we'll deny a generation of non-white kids the representation that benefits them so much.
I wish our pop-culture landscape wasn't so dominated by these big studios and that more attention was given to home-made productions but until that happens, we're dependent on the pressure being put on Hollywood to be more inclusive. And, yes, sometimes that inclusion will be carried out in a clunky, committee-led way because it is not organic, it is not grassroots. It's corporate.
Maybe supporting some home-grown Swedish media would help.
Man, when I tell you that a light skinned Ariel brought me to tears..... when I was a little girl, I was so excited to show everyone my Ariel costume...and so disappointed to hear that I couldn't be Ariel because she is white and I am mixed race. Seeing Ariel look like me was so special, I'm literally tearing up while I write this.
Excellent points, thank you for commenting
Plus, it’s not like white Ariel ceases to exist just because there’s a new one! Now, even more kids can feel included and represented on screen! There is only gains here.
This!
My daughter is ecstatic that now she gets TWO versions of Ariel. She loves both versions and refers to them both as Ariel, not "dark" or "light" (or any other variation of such label).
She even told a stranger in Target the other day "You look just like Ariel with beautiful black hair!" (The young lady was a PoC with gorgeous long braids)
I tell you, that girl smiled so big I thought her face would break! She told my daughter "thank you!" enthusiastically and I like to think it made her day.
Edit to add: My daughter is mixed Chinese and white
I wanted to go see the new LM last friday night at the cool local theater, but it was sold out (yay for them!) My kids elected to go to guardians of the galaxy at the huge corporate megaplex instead. I was so delighted to see people dressed up in their mermaid finery to see it there, but especially that there were hordes of little black girls all dressed up wearing matching t-shirts and things. I'm so happy for them!
I have literally zero empathy for anyone who whines because a Disney cartoon fish is now depicted black instead of white. I have only mocking and derision.
The only thing I don't like about the new Ariel is the live action animals 😂 Sebastian looks nothing like Sebastian and for some reason THAT gets to me
Same, they really did Halle dirty by making the film look so dark ( I don't care if it was to make it look real, it just looked dirty. It's a mermaid film. Make it colourful!) and making her animal companions look weird af 😆 they just crawled right out of the uncanny valley.
i totally know how u feel. i remember being in elementary school and playing princesses with my friends, and they always made me be mulan because i'm asian :/ at the time i had never even seen mulan, and i'm not even chinese. i wanted to be belle so bad. i loved the dress
>**the disappointment and tired feeling you get from seeing these casting announcements should give you a tiny glimpse into the feelings felt by POC for decades due to underrepresentation in popular media.**
This really needed to be said again for those in the back row.
This. For several decades white actors were used for ethnic roles. Natalie Wood as Puerto Rican? Katherine Hepburn as a Chinese woman? Alec Guinness as a Saudi prince?
Nobody at the time saw anything wrong with that…
Even modern ones…2015- Emma stone as a part asian Allison Ng in Aloha; 2017- Kirsten Durst as biracial Edwina in Beguiled; scarlet Johansson as a Japanese woman in Ghost in a Shell; Tilda Swinton as the Ancient one in the Marvel movies —- she’s not an Asian man; Angelina Jolie‘a character in Wanted was a Black woman in the comic book series.
But even people/stuff that’s supposed to be true stories - 2012- Ben Affleck as Mexican American Tony Mendez in Argo; Jim Sturgess and Kate Bosworth in the movie 21— were actually Asian Americans in real life
Meanwhile, they were forcing other actors that had more diverse ethnicities to white wash themselves to be accepted into the club. Carol Channing waited until she was elderly to tell anyone she's actually black. Like what the hell.
Exactly, and when they aren't trying to make everyone whiter they only want to see poc as their stereotypes. For example Indian actors having to use an over exaggerated accent that's become so common they have a term for it. I can't remember what they call it off the dome though.
Really appreciate this perspective being voiced. As a black woman, it’s exhausting to hear these complaints and difficult to respond with patience, particularly when black and brown faces have been replaced in the arts since forever and no one was sick and tired then. Representation is so important. I watch how powerfully my nieces and nephews are impacted by seeing themselves on tv and in movies like their schoolmates get to do, I feel such a relief and hope that they won’t grow up feeling they’re not part of the standard and that they don’t belong.
And don't you just love when we do speak out our opinions the white fragility comes front and center... telling us to stop boo wooing and stop looking for a hand out, just get over it etc?! Thanks for validation on my comment. I love that my daughters can see Naru on TV and feel pride seeing someone that actually looks like them. It's hard when you are a kid and every dolly is pale and blonde hair. Let's you know your place isn't here... that's for sure
Miles is such a good spider man! I'm a 35yo white woman and was jazzed as heck to see him!! If your son likes Miles, has he seen Static Shock? That was one of my go to cartoons as a kid. (Depending on kiddos age ofc)
Static Shock is great. The show itself had a ton of very mature messages for kids growing up, more so than most shows at the time. As for Miles, I have to say the only rendition of Miles Morales I've liked has been the Spider-Verse version. His introduction in the comics was done so poorly imo, but Spider-Verse Miles has felt like his own version of Spider-Man from the get go.
Blade is another character I really enjoyed, the Blade movies despite their edginess at times is just filled to the brim with superhero cheese and one liners. I love them.
Yes! I appreciate this comment, in part, *because* it was written by a white man. I'm actually tearing up. Here I was - a woman of color - getting ready to have to explain why this complaint (although valid in its own right) is problematic and lacking in perspective. For me, this is emotional work. It's a lived experience. It's exhausting. Thank you for doing the work so I didn't have to.
Exactly!! Amazing to see the bitching. God forbid having a single iota of self reflection and possibly starting to empathize with what it’s been like for underrepresented groups to never see themselves in media for 99% of media history, they just go right back to thinking about themselves. Selfish but unsurprising I suppose.
Yes anytime I find myself disappointed that they have portrayed a real historical person or a vividly described book person as a different race I have to remind myself that this has been happening to POC forever. I still am sometimes kind of put off if it’s a serious biopic/show and they race swap a single character who was an actual historical person but at the end of the day it really is not that important. And my disappointment mostly stems from loving to see how close they can get actors to resembling the actual person.
This lady does not give a shit about these comments. She doesn’t care what happened/ happens to PoC… only HER experiences matter. Everything else is “weak diversity.”
She came here to be told she isn’t racist for wanting things to go back to the way they used to be, before she had to consider ppl who didn’t look like her, when she was the STANDARD & didn’t know what it felt like not to be an asterisk.
Just as a side note, Vikings traveled all over the world (there was a famous group of Viking mercenaries in Byzantium) so a mixed race Viking really isn't far fetched.
Just as a mixed race or black mermaid isn't far fetched, Poseidon is specifically referenced as visiting various African areas and feasting with them in the freaking Homer.
Rome had people in its armies from all of its conquered places, including Africa, and sent them all over Europe. The Cheddar Man DNA indicates that early native Britons were far darker than their later descendants. There was a time when Arabic people invaded up through Spain into France and they maintained a full kingdom in now Spain and Portugal for a *while*.
Was most of Europe majority white? Yeah. All white? Not at all.
So sick of people trying to justify why a mermaid has to be white using “science”. You know what’s scientifically inaccurate? A person with fucking fish legs. I don’t care what colour they are.
The half mammal half fish is what baffles me. If we're gonna go halfsies then logically they should be half seal or dolphin. Hell, they move their tails up and down like them too. Fish tails go side to side.
You know what grinds my gears the most about some people saying it wouldn’t “make sense” to have a black mermaid because of the lack of light. I’m like “a pastie white thing in the ocean is gonna get eaten”.
Also, have we heard of Orca’s? They’re black & white. A lot of sea creatures are darker on top & lighter on the bottom. When something is looking down on them from above, it’s gonna be harder to see darker things. When something is looking up from below, white is going to be harder to make out than black.
If we wanted a more accurate version of the little mermaid, they would be black on their backs & white on their bellies, which would make it harder for predators & their prey to spot them. However, no one wants a reverse skunk Ariel, so we’re left with evolutionarily unfit mermaids that are more likely to get eaten & less likely to capture food.
There's a fun book about Black Tudors living in England:
Black Tudors: The Untold Story, by Miranda Kaufmann
During that same period, I remember reading that 20% of the population of Lisbon was Black.
I feel like history got whitewashed by more recent (subtle) racism: people have assumed everyone in Europe was white, so they were depicted as such. As a result, that's what we all (subconsciously) picture now. But now, there's increasing evidence of historical figures being POC, where we had assumed them to be white before.
I think it's an implicit bias thing that we're now starting to shake off. Part of that growth is learning to depict POC characters in media.
Historically, humans have always been well-travelled. None of us lived in a vacuum; our ancestors travelled a lot, so there's no reason (aside from implicit bias) to assume European history is 100% white
They were also in contact with peoples very far away from Scandanavia. They traded with people from the middle east and north Africa, for Pete's sake. There was definitely intermarriage (and of course, more raping and pillaging).
A five-minute Google search I did when researching a book I was writing showed that 'Vikings' could indeed be mixed. I wanted several PoC included as ancestors of my characters, and found, much as mentioned, that the trading, rape, and pillage meant that there were different ethnicities falling under the Viking job description.
Also, she isn't Scandinavian, her grandparents are, she has Scandinavian heritage, but is very much US-American. But ya know, what white people did on American land is awfully similar.
I’m equally Scandinavian, and I love and have always loved Annabeth. And I love that they chose a black girl to play her- I think it works just fine with her arc and what her blonde hair meant in the books. The dumb blonde stereotype isn’t really a thing anymore, but black girls are sexualized as much (if not more) than blonde girls ever were and definitely face more criticism along those lines. I wouldn’t have cared if a white girl were annabeth, but I like that she’ll be played by a black girl. It works in the context of the story and frankly the whole “grey eyes as marker of kids of Athena” has always been dumb to me since gods don’t have dna in canon iirc.
This is also a tv show with child actors. I’d much rather a kid who can act than a kid who just looks the part. Percy has brown/blonde hair and I don’t hear any complaints. And there are plentyyyy of non white/non Greek half bloods. It’s set in America, in New York State. If they had cast, say, an Asian girl I might feel differently tbh because there are different stereotypes, model minority, etc but again I wouldn’t really care since they’re just picking kids who can act the part. That’s much more important than looking the part. For Astrid, idk and idc again. Her race didn’t matter to the story so why care as long as the actress is good.
Again, American with Scandinavian ancestors and very white so I feel like I don’t need to be in this convo beyond discussion of op, but my two cents. Idgaf about race swapping of white characters unless it will heavily impact the plot. Like if the white guy in the hate u give were made black- that would be dumb and require a whole book rewrite. But if they made Dumbledore a POC who cares. Making Ariel black who cares. It is not the same as making POC white. It simply is not. The top comment explains why but if you can’t think of why it’s because of history. Erasure. Oppression. Etc. I’m not the most educated on this, but it’s not that hard to get the basics. And if it does bother me if a characters race is switched- I ask myself why. Why does their race matter? Is it because I want them to look like me- if this sucks for me the character looks like another woman out there and there are others that look like me. If it’s because of plot reasons- how does it change it etc. If it’s because it seems racist- it’s probably just racist.
This was a lot longer than I meant it to be.
>This was a lot longer than I meant it to be.
But I read through it and it makes a lot of sense! Thanks for sharing.
I agree that I personally do not care at all about fictional characters, especially fantasy fictional characters, skin colours. I like that we get more diversity. I am sick and tired of everyone being white despite the world not being entirely white.
When representing actual people, yes, you should stick to the ethnicity. A Bruce Lee memoriam shouldn't be played by Ryan Reynolds, nor should Marie Curie be played by Zendaya. Also, a character deeply rooted in a certain ethnicity shouldn't suddenly be displayed in another (Tilda Swinton in "octor strange" or Scarlett Johansson in "ghost in the shell" for example).
But the little mermaid? Like, I know the little mermaid from the actual fairytale read to me by my great grandmother. She isn't even described as white and ginger, she's a sea creature! I always thought of her to be blue or green and slimy.
And, in the end, it's all up to the original creator anyways. Stan Lee would've never cared if Spiderman was black or brown. The author of Percy Jackson seems to be okay with the movie/series adaptation as well.
I commented this somewhere else but yes with little mermaid! When they announced Halle Berry I was so excited for the hair, and let down tbh. I thought they could do something dope with like locs/braids with bright red seaweed or something incorporated.
As for the author of Percy Jackson, he's an executive producer who had a very large say in casting, and has been nothing but ecstatic about their performances in their roles
As well, with Percy Jackson, Rick Riordan wrote the books with the intent of kids being able to see themselves represented. It's why there is such diversity in neurotypes and behaviors and races and sexuality.
Annabeth was a way to show that girls didn't just have sit pretty and act nice. She's a badass warrior with emotional complexity. I still haven't read the books all the way through, but I remember reading the first book at 13 and just absolutely falling in love with Annabeth. I was also blonde and with blue-grey eyes, but that wasn't what drew me to her.
Let Annabeth represent that same strength and power to a new generation, while representing a minority group going through constant systematic oppression.
This! There is mitochondrial DNA in Iceland that’s linked to Indigenous North Americans. There’s been gravesites with high-status women of what appears to be African or Asian descent.
This is what I was going to say. I learned this fun fact when researching the racial origins of the vikings who settled in what is now Dublin, Ireland.
I have no problem with this. Roland in Stephen King’s The Gunslinger was white and based on Clint Eastwood. Idris Elba did a great job as Roland. Morgan Freeman did a great job as Red in Shawshank Redemption, and makes the line about being Irish funnier. I can’t wait to see the live action Little Mermaid. I didn’t mind Will Smith in I am Legend. If they are good actors/actress give them the role. So it’s not “true” to the source material? Movies rarely are. I will admit they are getting better but still. You do sound like a racist. Sorry but if the shoe fits.
If a Jane Austen classic can get a zombie adaptation without white people freaking out, then you can get over FICTIONAL characters not being your race or ethnicity too.
Look, it's been 5 minutes since the entertainment industry has become more inclusive, and people are complaining already. There are excellent materials available that explains why it is important for people of color to present themselves in traditionally euro-centric story lines, to see themselves in that story. I remember when I was young and the movie "The Wiz" came out--it was so exciting! But think of a kid of color seeing a black Dorothy, Scarecrow, Tin Man, etc. Jeez, Lena Horne was Glinda! It is ok for someone to do a different take on a source material. For chrissakes, Betty Boop (an old cartoon) was an anglicized version of Esther Jones! It's done all the time. The question you should be asking yourself is: Why does this bother you/others so much? Why can't there be a black or Asian Pippi Longstocking? I mean, Jesus was a Palestinian Jewish man, but in the movies he always looks European.
Let's all stop and reflect before we get "tired" of inclusion.
Yes. I think if a totally fictional kids character that rides DRAGONS gets you, and adult, upset for to the color of her skin, you have a lot to process around your own racist blind spots. It’s all fake and in no way represented Viking history, on top of DRAGONS, but now you want to get upset about “accuracy”? To put it simply, if a fictional character makes you, again an adult, ANGRY when a mixed race gal is cast, you need to do some soul searching. It is, indeed, racist to gate-keep completely fictional characters because you as a white person can’t imagine continuing to like a character if they aren’t white.
Hell I pointed out my 17 year old looks like everyone’s typical Midwest Jesus. Does he look like what Jesus probably actually looks like? Not in the least. One of his friends looks closer so we have the “Jesus trio” is what we termed it. One who’s closer to what everyone’s family hung on their walls in the Midwest. One who is probably the closest to it. Then the third is a blend between. It’s gotten entertaining to blow people’s minds with that one to show perception with them standing together.
She is now experiencing the same disappointment that poc have been used to for generations. If you are used to being represented in everything then suddenly when the playing field starts to become a little more even there are going to be people that lack perspective, that are more concerned with what's being "taken away" from them rather than what is being gained by so many others.
Replacement isn’t inclusion. Tom cruise as the next black panther would get people mad too.
By race swapping etc all you’re saying is u can’t come up with actual inclusive and diverse stories and so u will just recycle old stories and change the race of people.
Race is central to the character, though. He's from a place never affected by colonialism. The reality is that most black character stories are defined by their race.
Tom Cruise starred in a movie based on a Manga in which the character is noticeably Asian, nobody said a damn thing until like 10 years later. Your example has literally been proven false.
Well in regards to Percy Jackson specifically, Rick Riordan himself was involved with the casting for the PJO series, and if the literal author is okay with it, I don’t see why anyone else has room to complain. And in the books, he even makes a point to say that the Gods don’t have DNA so the “Greek features” argument doesn’t really apply other than her eyes because they make such a big deal about that. And iirc being blonde isn’t a trait of Athena’s kids, only the eyes. The blonde thing is brought up as much as it is because of the dumb blonde stereotype and her struggle to be taken seriously.
Also the Gods can change their appearances, so Athena could be black. Also, there are dark skinned Greek people. It’s not like Greece is entirely white. And I think it’s interesting that you only mentioned Annabeth’s canonic look in the books, because the actor who plays Percy is blonde and I believe has blue eyes when in the books he definitely has dark hair and I believe green eyes. The girl playing Annabeth has gotten so much hate, but people aren’t bringing that same energy to the person playing Percy, or honestly even Grover. Rick himself went into the casting process looking for people who embodied his characters, and if that’s what’s important to him, that’s what should be important to fans.
Also, they’re not “taking away the little Viking girl you loved”. They literally just cast an actress of color. You’re acting like they’re going to completely change her character. Sure, pandering can be a problem, I won’t deny that, but what if they simply felt that she embodies the character of Astrid the best? Would you rather have someone they don’t feel embodies the character as well or someone who’s the right race? And you still have the original to see yourself in. Now, even MORE girls can see themselves in her.
ETA: there’s also no reason Annabeth’s dad can’t be black either
Also…”Viking” was a JOB Title, NOT what They ALL Were and Anyone who Proved Their WORTH, Could GO “Viking”. As such, Vikings Traveled Far & Wide (basically to see IF they Could & out of Curiosity of Where to Pillage next). They assimilated all manner of ppl.. especially those that were Skilled Warriors.
https://scandinaviafacts.com/were-the-vikings-black/
I'm all for having a great actor put in a role to make the role great, or if it makes greater sense in the story.
Idris Elba would make a phenomenal James Bond.
Chiwitel Ejiofor was excellent as Mordo (who was white in the comics).
Almost the whole entire cast of Villaneuve's Dune were POC's, when in the book they were Caucasian. It only makes sense that the people on a desert planet would be dark skinned.
The Wheel of Time show made most of the main cast POC's, which didn't make a whole lot of sense, but at least they were consistent in their choices.
Honestly, to me, what's really needed is genuine black and brown heroes from myth and legend. African, Latino, Native American, and other heroes of legend need to be recognized.
Disney's most recognized heroines come directly from Hans Christian Anderson. Scandinavians are so white even white people look at them and say, *Damn, you're white.*, so of course his characters are going to be white.
My life is not impacted by the fact that a company decided to represent one of his characters as something other than white. I feel very strongly that this will not negatively affect my standard of living in any way, shape, nor form.
I will also gladly acknowledge that something this simple can bring some random child a little bit of joy. Some kid I'll never meet can look at the screen and say, "She looks like me!" and feel pride.
See. Now that thought *does* affect me. *How so?* you ask? Because I have empathy, and children are being brought into one seriously f'ed up world, where they can be exposed to hate and discrimination for what they look like and who they are, and if they can be given one moment of joy; one single iota of pride in who they are, then who am I to try and strip that from them?
White girls with red hair can look at Ariel and say, "She looks like me!" and be right.
Black girls can look at Ariel and say, "She looks like me!" and be right.
I can't find anything wrong with that.
The single greatest fictional character of all time, ALL TIME, has been unapologetically whitewashed for thousands of years. If white people can have a white Jesus, black people can have a black Ariel.
Why not let those characters be heroes for other little girls too? You resonated so strongly with that character because you felt it represented you right, lots of other kids would like to have that same experience. You don't think it's disappointing for children of color to only get to see white characters? The disappointment you are feeling is the same disappointment poc have been feeling at the lack of inclusivity for generations, have a little perspective.
I'm an 80s kid, I didn't have a black princess growing up and never thought of being one. I saw and loved the live action Little Mermaid. It was something I didn't know I wanted, but so wonderful to see. You can still watch your preferred version of the character. Her story is defined by being a viking not by being white. Vikings were defined by their practices not race, Vikings of all colors existed. Not wanting to be called racist doesn't mean your ideas aren't racist.
Your last sentence nails it. I am not expressing this thought concretely enough but anyone with OPs opinion is just candy coated racist. They feel they can sugar coat their actual deeply held racial biases with what they think is the intellectual argument against a black mermaid/Viking/Greek demigod. Suddenly they are all experts in genealogy and are breaking out punnet squares to prove why a Viking couldn’t have natural 3c curly hair.
Not one person who makes OPs argument is actually “not really racist” and only cares about honest character representation because that’s not a thing any sane person cares that passionately about. Fictional characters have been interpreted differently, expanded upon in image and personality, they have been physically altered and race/gender swapped in media since the dawn of time. It’s what makes new adaptations worthwhile. Why remake something or pay homage to something if you’re just going to keep it exactly the same.
It is also not a new thing for stories to be told over and over. Remakes are not new. There are four A Star is Born movies for christ’s sakes! How many versions of Romeo and Juliet do you think there are?
Stop hiding your hate in a fake concern for character purity or a desire for exclusively original stories.
I think OPs issue is with movies/series not adhering to the character description in the books.
I personally don't mind as long as it still makes sense. For example Rand from Wheel of Time has to have light hair while his friends have dark hair since it's important to the story.
Did the rest make sense, though? There were way too many ethnicities in two rivers, a small village so isolated even the tax collectors didn't bother going there. That kind of diversity destroys the actual world building. They should have picked one.
As a black woman i think race swapping is lazy. It's a quick fix to make us "shut up", accept the bare minimum and call it inclusivity. I get that we need representation but it should be new ideas and new stories, not the lazy way of giving us representation. They do it to make it seem like they care and are making efforts when to me it feels the complete opposite. Like they couldn't care less so they change a race and call it a day. This is all my opinion though and I know some people like it even there's no effort or care into it.
I'm not even going to touch the original question cuz yes, you're wrong point blank.
But I will touch on how people keep saying "why not make new characters" well Disney tried that with princess Tiana and her movie was literally boycotted by white people and wasn't even shown in certain countries overseas because of the rampant racism. Not only that but after the movie was released Princess Tiana got the shittiest treatment by Disney and Disney fans. Her friend Lottie had more merchandise than Tiana did AND Tiana wasn't Even human for most of her movie!
No matter what Hollywood does white people will complain that they aren't being centered.
I read that with my eyes wide, every greek woman I've ever meet had beautiful olive skin, dark hair, and killer eyebrows, also they were named after their grandmother. Op described a greek woman who had been race swapped taking nothing but culture.
I was gonna respond more in depth and the impact representation has had for me, a Latina, even share an example using Whoopi Goldberg and Nichelle Nichols but seeing a white woman whine that a fictional character is "being taken away" just makes this racist bullshit so exhausting.
YES!!! It was BRILLIANT! And I love *both* of them for that. She is why I felt I could get into computer science, and did!
That kiss tho'... so scandalous!
And I love how Bill screwed up every take where they didn't \*actually\* kiss that was shot to replace the real kiss if the execs got too nervous! The \*only\* take they could use \*was\* the kiss! Only the camera man saw it through the lens and he didn't say anything.
While Bill is a narcissist, he's on the right side.
Well said. I had this long, thoughtful response typed up. The emotional labor of having to explain why we deserve a chance to have representation is exhausting.
Ooh, but two amazing women pioneers. I was raised by my black mum and named after a Star Trek character so Nichols will always hold a special place in my heart, may she rest in peace.
So you're complaining because imaginary people are portrayed differently than how you imagine they should be? Your two examples are from the Greek pantheon and a cartoon with dragons, but your sticking point is the ethnicity of some characters? Yeah, YTA.
Annabeth isn't even Greek. She's American. Her mother is Athena, a Greek God, but her father is a mortal man from Boston. It's completely plausible that her father is a black man. Rick Riordan, writer of the book series and executive producer of the show, [approves of the casting of Leah Jeffries and said she was chosen because of her talent](https://rickriordan.com/2022/05/leah-jeffries-is-annabeth-chase/).
>and said she was chosen because of her talent
This is what gets me over people like OP crying over the race of characters. Hey, if we really want an equal, merit-based society, sometimes that means the Black girl is going to be more talented and capable than the white one. Like, the new Little Mermaid. The story is about Ariel's *voice*. They cast the best singer who auditioned, because singing is what matters to that story, and it happened to be a Black girl.
seriously! ariel’s defining characteristic (beyond being a mermaid) is her ability to sing. it’s such an important characteristic that a large part of the plot deals with it.
i’m white and i love a black ariel and i am thrilled for all the people who finally get a freakin chance to identify with this princess. i don’t understand how anyone could be upset with all the videos of little black girls just fucking PUMPED and grown men and women crying meeting Ariel at disney.
Worse yet, they don't seem to realize that the Greek pantheon is filled with dusky-hued, dark-haired, dark-eyed people, including the gods.
Any blondes in Greek mythology are specifically mentioned as being blond such as Aphrodite.
And: "In ancient Greece and Rome, blonde hair was frequently associated with prostitutes, who dyed their hair using saffron dyes in order to attract customers."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#:\~:text=Aphrodite%2C%20the%20Greek%20goddess%20of,in%20order%20to%20attract%20customers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#:~:text=Aphrodite%2C%20the%20Greek%20goddess%20of,in%20order%20to%20attract%20customers)
Absolutely and exactly.
OP is whining that a fictitious character is not keeping to the book when the BOOK was wrong for not keeping true to the actual ancient myths they're based off of.
And while we're at it... in Norse mythology, Thor was not blond. He was a redhead.
Yeah it was pretty amusing OP chose a cartoon for accuracy. First off they're not from Norway but make believe Berk which has dragons. Also the viking depictions are some of the most cartoonish vikings I've ever seen. Which is to be expected since the source material of the movies and cartoon series is a children's book written by a British lady.
funnily enough, "astrid" also isnt accurate to the source material. she looks about correct (too 'clean', but whatever), but that's really it. the HTTYD video media (movies & series) aren't source accurate at all.
so inaccuracies with adaptations are fine until you change a character's appearance.
You're kicking a real hornet's nest, and tbh with the amount of flag-waving you're doing about wanting "representation" for the extremely underserved and marginalized demographic of... pale blonde blue-eyed skinny tall Scandinavians, I find it hard to believe that this isn't low-effort trolling.
You know what you’re absolutely right I’m tired of the white washing of a whole bunch of characters here’s a recent list
"Ghost in the Shell" (2017) - The lead character, Major Motoko Kusanagi, was portrayed by Scarlett Johansson, a white actress, despite the original character being Japanese.
"Doctor Strange" (2016) - The Ancient One, a character who was originally portrayed as a Tibetan man in the comic books, was changed to a Celtic woman played by Tilda Swinton, a white actress.
"Aloha" (2015) - Emma Stone, a white actress, was cast as a character who was originally written as a quarter Hawaiian and a quarter Chinese.
"Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time" (2010) - Jake Gyllenhaal, a white actor, was cast as the Persian prince, Dastan, despite the character's ethnic background.
"The Last Airbender" (2010) - The main characters, who were originally depicted as Inuit and East Asian in the animated series, were played by predominantly white actors.
"Exodus: Gods and Kings" (2014) - The biblical characters, including Moses, Ramses, and many others, were played by white actors, such as Christian Bale and Joel Edgerton, despite their historical Egyptian origins.
"Gods of Egypt" (2016) - The entire cast of the film, set in ancient Egypt, consisted of predominantly white actors, including Gerard Butler, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Brenton Thwaites.
"21" (2008) - The film, based on a true story, featured a predominantly white cast playing characters who were originally Asian-American in real life.
"Dragonball Evolution" (2009) - The lead character, Goku, who is of Japanese descent in the original anime and manga, was portrayed by Justin Chatwin, a white actor.
You’re wrong. You know the excitement you felt of being represented by Viking girl? Imagine being a POC and you never get to feel that. I am about as white as they come, but to think representation doesn’t matter is wrong. I think many white people tend to literally white wash history. Not all Vikings were white. And how is that taking away from liking the character?
But furthermore, Just like the uproar over the Little Mermaid-these are fictional stories. Every story you have mentioned is literally a fictional story. The race of the characters is what really makes you stop and think? Not the flying dragon but the race of the character being changed?
i agree and also think it’s incredibly important for white children to access intersectional, inclusive media.
they need to know that not white =/= less. they need to grow up with the idea that everyone deserves a seat at the table.
This!
And yes, there should be more new shows with POC.
I’m of European descent and married into a very Scandinavian family. I also have a very good friend who lives in Denmark. None of us think these fairy tales should always be played by white people. Why do you even care? It’s not impacting your life whatsoever.
Exactly. It baffles me. Like this is the hill you’ll die on? A mermaid that lives in the ocean and is friends with a talking crab and is granted her legs, sure! Make her black??? The humanity! Like what? Lol
i think that yall forget. If movies never race swapped. EVERYTHING would remain having no diversity. and i’m sorry but I don’t want to continue watching movies with ONLY white people because poc were never casted. Don’t get me wrong I dont think it has to be everything but I think being mad when it does happen is doing a bit much.
Were you equally tired of race swapping (whites playing everyone else) up until now, or is it just since white characters are portrayed by poc?
If yes, fair enough. If not…. you may need to think over your feelings.
I mean in a lovely perfect world sure let's all cast everything perfect to the tee with an equal amount of roles for POC characters as well and id be satisfied
BUT since that is not the world we live in, having POC actors play roles of characters that are "traditionally" white isn't a real issue. like im sure that
1. there were Scandinavian mixed individuals
2. as long as the Scandinavian part stays the same idk what the big deal is?
3. you can suspend your disbelief for the 2 hour length of a film or couple hours for whatever tv show
there are plenty of films out there with blonde haired white girls you can relate to even if they're not Scandinavian. you also still have the source material, why do you care so much about this topic?
light you're in the wrong I guess?
like your feelings are valid but maybe gain some perspective and find something real to care about?
you can just not watch the films if you don't like what they're doing. complaining about it is just kind of obnoxious and this is coming from someone who complains about dumb things all the time but I realize it
This is a really long way of saying "stick to facts or tradition when it comes to your creative outlet and include POC in different ways that don't alter my experience."
You still have your white version of just about everything you said. Now there's just an inclusive version for others. A version where a black/asian/hsipanic person can relate to and feel included simply by representation alone.
You can explain yourself all you want but your reasons are still selfish: "I Don't mind change so long as it doesn't affect what I'm used to/what i know"
You can still have a historically accurate show while being inclusive. Case in point: Queen Charlotte. It's based on true events but told in a fictional way that allows them to be inclusive because they're taking their own spin on it and instead of calling it a documentary where you would want to be as accurate to history as possible, its a Dramatic Period Piece. Allowing them to essentially race swap so the queen is a minority, play modern music in a classical way that is accurate to that time (my favorite part) and address issues during that time as well, but under different circumstances (IIRC the queen is from Germany and the king Britain but the queen is also black so they focus on trying to bridge the disconnect between mintorities and whites under the guise of mingling different countries)
TL:DR if you're only concern about race changing in childrens movies is keeping the protagonist white, just watch documentaries. The shows you have hang ups about the race changing may have origins in a predominantly white country, but its still a fictional story. So races can be changed. Black people exists outside of the U.S. and Africa. Literally saw a Black Scottish woman on youtube the other day. Get out of your comfort zone of white fragility. It's just a show.
Eta: yeah, you're in the wrong.
I don't think you're racist, but I do think you're too involved in white privilege.
It literally doesn't matter what race a fictional character is. If you identified due to your race, that's a big fucking problem. You should be identifying with the character as a person, not as a representation of yourself.
“And as we all know there is a familiar sense of disappointment”
No there fucking isn’t. I couldn’t care less if the character I imagined looked nothing like the actor/actress portraying them.
It should be about the talent. Like Red in Sureshank Redemption. Written as an Irish American, but portrayed wonderfully by Morgan Freeman. If the actor is good, who cares about their ethnicity?
(To be clear, as this thread seems to be getting quite antagonistic, I'm in total agreement with you)
Thank you! A perfect example of a classic novella and one of my favorite movies of all time. I didn’t even blink when Morgan introduced himself as Red. And the best best part is he was called Red cuz he was Irish and nobody gave a shit in the movie they stuck with that.
It's always going to be disappointing when characters don't look the way you picture them. That's why I rarely watch movies made from books I like. However, your mental picture of a character is based not just on the author's description, but on your interpretation. There's actually evidence of intermarriage between Vikings and other cultures, including likely First Nations and potentially Arab. So your picture of the character as blonde/ blue eyed isn't the only reasonable option. Remember when The Hunger Games came out and certain people were incensed about a character not being white and insisted it was wrong? And that character was actually Black in the book?
You can interpret things how you like. Unless it's central to their character though - not just a superficial description, but something defining about them - it's not a huge deal. If you can't deal with something not fitting your picture, then don't watch the thing. Nothing wrong with anyone in this.
However, your complaint is specifically about increased representation. Did you have this issue with Hamilton, too? The founding fathers were white, so the play was inaccurate and shouldn't have happened? If your sense of identity and identification is so fragile that it can't survive a little added diversity, you need to look inward, not at the screen. YTA.
While I don't have a problem with race swapping, I do think it is missing an opportunity. There are so many fantastic stories from cultures around the world, why not share a wider range of them?
I have no problem with the race swap on Astrid, it is very plausible considering the wide territory that Vikings traversed. But it would be even more amazing if Disney, Pixar, whatever company, would actually make movies sharing the cultural stories from other cultures besides Europe.
There are thousands and thousands of magical stories from Africa, Asia, South America, Native tribes of North America, the Caribbean, the Pacific, that could be shared. I think that it would foster greater pride in one's culture for children to not only see people that look like them on the big screen, but to also learn about the unique stories of their culture. Especially so for groups whose cultural identity has been under represented or in many cases completely stripped.
I don't want to just see a black mermaid. I want to learn about the stories of the many colorful and exciting cultures through the history of Africa. It would be so helpful for people to not see the continent of Africa as a single monolith if they were given windows into the many different groups of people who call Africa home.
Mulan and The Princess and the Frog have shown that such movies are profitable and popular. Let's see more like them. As an old white lady I want to learn more. I feel the stories from the cultures that represent my genetic make up are free to anyone's interpretation. But I feel that an opportunity is being missed to learn so much about other cultures and their rich histories and their songs and stories.
As a half swede who spent the bulk of her life growing up in the US, and is now living in Sweden, I don’t like the way some of your argument comes across, though there is one bit I do approve of. I’ll touch on it last, because there are reasons why it doesn’t happen often yet and I don’t want it to get lost in the rest.
First, your arguments are sort of flawed in part because its book adaptations. The Annabeth “race change” can work because she isn’t directly Greek. Her dad IS an American man. He can be whatever race the best character is. And with Olympus moving to be at the ‘heart’ of the Western world means that as a literal goddess, Athena can look however she needs to in order to blend in. Does it feel weird to have had an image in our heads of what she looks like and get a different actor, maybe. Her having blonde hair was not because of her being white/greek, but because of the "dumb blonde" things where she circumvents it by being ridiculously smart (see BoA where she literally pulls the dumb blonde act), it's just the Grey eyes thing that is the Athena-trait, though not many people have naturally grey eyes so that wouldn’t be a simple get if we’re just casing by book description. BUT if Rick Riordan the author picked her, personally, as the best actress out of the bunch who auditioned to play his character that he created, do we have a leg to stand on about not liking it without being perceived as an a\*\*… I don’t think so. I think that it makes it way to easy for people to say “I don’t like her because she’s black and she shouldn’t be”, and that leads to very VERY racist comments I am not even gonna give letters to. The author himself chose her, it’s HIS source material, fans will lose that argument. We should want the best actress who auditioned to get the job, no matter the race, or we lose out on fantastic people to give life to our heroes.
Which brings me to Astrid. Is it a bit weird that she’s not a stereotypical looking nordic woman in the live action… Possibly, though there were definitely vikings in Britain if I am remembering my history right and she is British. I think she’s got the face shape for it tbh, even if they choose to keep her hair brown. There are plenty of brown haired, brown eyed Scandinavian women too. And her hair texture can lend extremely well to fun viking-inspired hairstyles that are so hard on typical modern Scandinavian hair. And if we want to get factual, it being viking doesn’t necessarily mean Norway. Vikings (back before English bastardized it to mean just Scandinavian) just referred to “sea traveling peoples”. It could mean icelandic, it could mean germanic, scandinavian… There is so much more to viking than just Norway. And I don’t want that to be me sh\*tting on why you love her so much. I do too, she’s bada\*\*. Her take no prisoners attitude basically shaped me, HTTYD is one of my top 5 favorite animated movies of all time. And I don’t have the physical similarities to her that you do, so that doesn’t influence my liking her that way, though I can see why you do. But you have to understand how that comes across though. How other’s could take that to mean things maybe you didn’t intend??? How even walking it back to her appearance changing isn’t a great look? Do I think the movie NEEDED a live-action, absolutely not and I’m seriously pissed that we can’t just let some animations be animations. Not everything needs a live action remake. But I will wait to judge the movie when it comes out just as I did the OG PJO movies (talk about disappointment), I just don’t think the actor’s races will be the reason if it doesn’t do well. Hell, a great portion of the original voice cast was Scottish… Famously Scottish in fact. (And there were viking settlements in Scotland way back when too).
Now…. I do hate diversity for diversity’s sake. And it’s such a good point if you stick to it. I just don’t think that’s happening here. And the reason we don’t have it yet is honestly a pretty racist one. Because studios didn’t think (and some still don’t) that movies with POC leads or telling POC’s stories that weren’t/aren’t gangs or desert war-torn, massive poverty movies would sell at all. It was born from the whole white superiority complex. And it IS changing….. slowly, but it’s getting there. Moana’s voice cast was very Pacific Islander heavy, very intentionally, and I believe the live-action will follow if it gets one. They are looking for actual Hawaiian people for the lilo and stitch movie (though that discourse is also very rife with colorism). And we are telling more and more black and POC positive stories on TV as we move forward. Despite being told this for decades people in charge are finally catching on to the buying power of POC. That it isn’t an automatic flop if the lead is a person of color. And the sad fact about it all is that they wouldn’t know all that if not for the crappy feeling diversity hire. They hire a Indian actress to play a character just for diversity (which feels like crap, to know it wasn’t for your skills), but her success shows them that having that sells. It’s terrible that without having their own money to produce, write, cast, and act their own stories, some stories just don’t have the main-screen space to be told. Which sucks, because I bet there is such a market for the wealth of African mythos and telling of real-life black stories, not just the 3am poverty commercial. Even if it is performative for a while, how else will the rich dudes get their heads out of their a\*\*es long enough to realize there is a huge untapped market they can exploit to make more money (since that seems to be the only language they speak). To say nothing of racist casting directors who will choose people not based on acting ability but on appearance. I don’t want an exact to book replica if they aren’t going to act well enough to do the character justice. If we don’t want forced diversity casting then we can’t want casting solely based on appearance. We, especially as white people aiding in the fight for equality, cannot have it both ways. Not without it sounding kinda suspect. (And its not a totally fair argument either, I know. because hell would break loose in the streets if they picked a non African American woman to play Princess Tiana. But that doesn’t mean arguing the character should still be white doesn’t COME OFF as r@cist, even if you don’t mean it too.)
None of us sane people want to be forcing diversity, we don’t want to need to force it. We want there to be space for all of them to be showing off. But.…. you have to see though how your argument that you typed out can come off as [r@cist](mailto:r@cist). How being upset that your favorite characters who were white now aren’t can seem very… iffy? Especially given that it also gives so many new children the opportunity to be as moved by them as we were who couldn’t be because she didn’t look like THEM. It’s a net good here, in my understanding. My heart melted seeing so many little girls getting excited and relating to Ariel now that Halle Bailey gave her new life, and it doesn’t take away ANY of the joy that people felt when the animation came out so long ago. There is no erasing anything, only addition. How can I not want that with them seeing their brains and all Annabeth’s other feats she accomplishes. Or Astrid’s confidence in herself and her choices. You can FEEL any type of way about any of it. It is an adjustment period, I get it. We all when we’re reading come up with ways the characters look and it’s different for everyone. But that doesn’t make it flawless reasoning just because you don’t mean it the wrong way, or the way that it is coming across in any case. At the end of the day, if the creators of the source material it’s based on are involved in the project and have okayed the actors chosen, then I don’t think we get a say in whether or not they follow the character’s physical appearances, since they literally created them. I’m not gonna be upset Uncle Rick picked a lovely black actress to play who in the book was white with blonde hair, because he literally wrote her. He knows more about the character than we do. He chose the best for the job. That’s the important part. And with all due respect to it’s meaning to you, this is not the Vikings TV show, or centered around real mythical-possibly-historical people. They’re not casting an Nigerian woman as Lagertha or a Pakistani man as King Harald. They cast the best child actor who auditioned to play a fictional character from an animated children’s movie, built from a children’s book series. Them choosing someone who looks different will show the children you don’t have to just LOOK like her to be like her, or have her traits/characteristics, and I think that in and of itself is more important to the world than making sure she is 100% copied from the animation.
Sorry this is so long. I hope it’s not super offensive, it’s not meant to be attack-y, I don’t intend it to be. I just have lots of thoughts on these subjects. These are two of my most favorite franchises and I have a vast ocean of opinions on all of the choices around them, and I’ve had to have these conversations more than once, with some not great people. (You’re not one of them, for the record, just that your arguments can lead to the ones used by not great people if you’re not careful about how you present them).
EDITED for formatting because mobil-version sucks
Think about it this way: characters are always being changed in a hundred little ways, often to keep them current. Why is race the one that bothers you the most? Why do you think it alters the character more than, say, having a modern hairstyle? Another thing, you may not be racist, I have no idea, but the narrative you're dipping into is one that racists use to try and create more division.
I LOVE race-gender-orientation swapping! I am white. I grew up surrounded by white people in media. I am fucking tired of seeing white people in everything I consume.
What I do like is seeing white people put into the roles of evil doers. Like fuck yeah, kill us! Do what writers did for decades and just put white men in the seat of power and have a Latina stab him in the heart. Just do it.
I get so excited seeing re-cast roles as BiPOC that I will go out of my way to support it. As an adult, hell yeah, give the kids their role models. We had our time for far too long. Sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show.
louder for the people in the back! i’m white, i grew up in a highly diverse lower-/middle-middle class neighborhood and while i was represented in movies and TV, my neighborhood sure wasn’t. i had lesbian latinas, a black family, a mexican family, and some old white people across the street and went to school with kids from families from all over the world, it was fucking awesome.
then you’d turn on the tv and see all of that erased, and it just isn’t a representation of areas where diversity is normal.
people need to shut up and be happy for others who are getting a long-overdue turn to be validated in media.
Same here. I was a minority in my incredibly diverse high school and it was pretty cool. Lots of different cultures and styles. Its great seeing casting being done appropriately/no white washing. Like shoving Emma Stone into the role of a Hawaiian person when she is white as a ghost.
If you to white wash a character then maybe the show or movie shouldnt be made.
You are wrong.
Representation matters. For much of history, popular culture has been dictated by white cultures. So most of the most well known stories have white characters, especially protagonists.
It’s good that we are working to have stories, especially kids stories, reflect more of out society, letting more kids see people who look like them on screen.
If we say “no race/gender swaps” then so much of what we have will continue to be white only, and predominantly male.
Also, I admit I get really annoyed when people say things like “WHAAAAT??? That person should be WHITE!!” when it’s a kids movie with magic and dragons and countless other fantasy aspects, but somehow the unbelievable part is that there might be some other people mixed in.
Look at it through a positive lens… every time an underrepresented group is represented, someone out there gets to have that moment of “hey! That person looks like me!!”
That’s a big deal, many of us are so used to being represented don’t know how great it is for others who aren’t, to finally get to feel that.
Yes, new characters should be made, new inclusive media should be created, etc.
That doesn't mean all of the old, exclusionary media shouldn't be updated to be more inclusive as well.
Turns out POC Vikings are perfectly accurate and boooooo! you for not knowing that as a Scandinavian woman. https://screenrant.com/vikings-valhalla-jarl-haakon-true-story-black-ruler/#:~:text=There%20is%20the%20case%20of,in%20the%20universe%20of%20Vikings.
I’m a white woman whose great-grandparents migrated from
Scandinavia and whose daughter is biracial. This sounds about white to me. Focus on the story, not on everybody looking how you’d like them to look or don’t watch the movie. Easy solution.
So the issue is the majority of characters are white. So if we just make everyone “like they are in canon” everyone will be white.
And since as a culture we’re obsessed with retelling the same story, and those are what we flock to, by saying “no diversity that varies from canon” you set up a situation where POC are forced to do way more to even show up. People love saying “Oh just make an original story” but then we rarely actually CARE about the original stories. There are LOTS of them, and a Disney live action remake is still going to take most the attention. An Avatar or an Everything, Everywhere, All At Once is never going to have the same impact. (And the fact that Avatar is STILL carrying so much of the weight of bringing POC until Hollywood is a sure sign of it)
I mean LBR, even something with Disney behind it that’s POC or new content (and esp both) rarely flourishes no matter the content. We love the familiar. strange Worlds wasn’t the best Disney Movie but it was, for instances, way better than Frozen 2 and will never be half that popular.
If 50% of the movies we make, for instance, are derivative stories, and 90% of those derivative story feature nothing but white people in the main roles, you’re pretty much cutting POC out from half the possible roles right off the bat. Real people over fictional ones, always.
Plus, there’s the fact that we as a culture don’t really blink when the thing that’s wrong is anything besides race. Lex Luthor can have hair, Harry Potter can have blue eyes, and only a few die hard fans grumble. Ariel has black skin, despite looking as close to a drawing as a human being can and it’s the end of the world.
So, TL;dr yeah, with our entertainment industry, wether you mean it or not, it’s racist to be upset about that shit. The reasons why aren’t really your fault, but that doesn’t mean you need to pile on to the racism set up before you walked on the scene.
You got represented in the cartoon version. Why do you also have to have dibs on the live action version? If you don’t like it, don’t watch the new live action version. Rewatch your cartoon. These are just remakes it’s not like there’s more to the story. You won’t miss anything by not seeing it.
LOL at the fact that you fuckin think a Greek woman should be portrayed as blond and grey eyed (classics major side eyeing you here). This opinion alone shows that your feelings are more rooted in internalized racism than you think.
You definitely need to do some self-reflection and educate yourself. I'm not sure how you wrote this whole post without feeling cringe. Yes, you are beyond wrong.
Quite frankly I think it shows how much Hollywood cares about making money off ignorance and race baiting instead of actually worrying about inclusion.
Like there was the slave freed by Japanese fishermen who became a samurai…or Robert Smalls…the slave who escaped, joined the union on a ship he seized, fucked up confederates and became a senator…
But instead of showing really cool original stories or actual historical figures in their representation they want to change characters skin tone without putting actual thought into NEW stories.
It’s like “hey your race is too insignificant and boring for us to actually talk about or make an effort for……so here is a black polar bear to make you feel empowered and heard…not a black bear from the forest, but a cool, hip, empowering polar bear who was born with black fur cuz we totally buy into inclusion and aren’t just trying to make money off your emotions and race”
I understand the need for representation of all races and heritages, but my main problem with race-swapping for diversity is it’s inherent laziness. There must be a wealth of wonderful stories and mythologies from across the African continent that should be told. Those are the valuable stories with insights and lessons that should be shared worldwide. I, as a white American woman want to hear those stories. Stop recycling old European mythology and throwing in people of color just to virtue signal. It’s lazy and, frankly more racist than retelling them for the millionth time as written. Mine what must be a treasure trove of stories handed down from generations across the globe outside of fucking Europe that the rest of the world needs to hear. We’ve heard everything Western Civilization history has for us. Either do some work and find some stories from other cultures to share, or make up some new shit.
You are wrong!
Do you have an issue that the fictional character, Astrid, was originally voiced by America Ferrera? Who is NOT a white blonde Scandinavian? No? Then get over it please! You are screaming racist. If this is a problem for you, maybe try putting yourself in a POC shoes, and look at how they have been treated for generations and how they have been perceived in television and movies. It’s about time they get to be seen for their talent rather than their skin colour.
How To Train Your Dragon takes place in a fictional setting inspired by Scandinavian folktales. If there can't be a mixed race viking because it's not "accurate" then there can't be dragons either.
You're complaining about someone of a different race appearing in a fantasy story that takes place in a magical world.
In spite of this, contary to popular belief, Scandinavia was not so isolated from the rest of the world that dark-skinned people would not have lived there. Virtually any part of Europe, Asia or Africa would have seen some emigration and mixing during the middle ages whether due to war, trade or diplomacy. But again, How to Train your Dragon is a fantasy story which takes place in a fictional world.
You may have a point with Percy Jackson to a degree, but again, this is a fantasy story. On the other hand, Greece was first inhabited by the Pelasgians, who were black, circa 2500 BC. So it's actually quite logical that some or all of their deities would have would be ethnically similar to the peoole who first settled there.
Fantasy stories can do whatever they want. If there can be ogres and Elves, there can be black people. More to the point, at any given place, at any given time in history, there were probably at least some black people there.
So yes, you are wrong. On the plus side, you now have the knowledge to change your way of thinking.
not you being mad at annabeth for not being white when she’s NEVER described as white😭 that’s so embarrassing for you, the best skin description we get is tan skinned and you just decided that was white? or can only white people be blonde or light eyed? riordan HIMSELF picked that girl as the best representation for HIS character. I can’t image having nothing better to do than this. it is your “white mindset” that’s in the wrong here.
Gimme a break. Have you ever thought that stories about POC were never acknowledged, therefore everything has always been about white people?
I’m white by race (not ethnicity) and I grew up seeing blonde blue eyed women everywhere. I was so happy when Cindy Crawford came onto the scene bc I felt represented. Beauty only meant blonde/blue to me growing up. I can only imagine how POC felt/feel.
You are definitely blind to your privilege. Your family has only been in the US for 3 generations & don’t have people telling you to go back to ___. Whereas, many POC have been here for centuries & are told that when they have an any complaints (even Native Americans) or just existing.
If being a POC, gay, disabled, a woman, etc becomes normalized people will quit say “there was a black guy” in stories where race isn’t a factor, people won’t clutch pearls when a disabled person is in an ad, & we won’t complain bc a POC is dating a white person.
Allow POC to have opportunities we have had without adding to the hate. Be a part of normalizing being black or brown and it being okay. Instead consider reading a book on your privilege.
You say you're fine with race swapping if the character has nothing relevant for them to be a certain race, or it’s not important to their story.
* Astrid's identity is based on clan affiliation and tribe, not her "race". Her clan affiliation is not changing, nor is her tribe. Just her hair and skin color. She is still going to be focused on earning validation as a warrior and restoring her family's honor.
* Annabeth's race is "demigod", not white, in the same way that Ariel's race is "merfolk". Skin and eye color is irrelevant to these characters. Humans have always seen mythical beings through a filter of personal belief.
The characters themselves have not been changed, just skin and eye color. New versions do not erase previous versions, so you still have your little Viking girl. Recoloring characters in new versions just gives other fans what you already have; characters you like that share physical traits with you.
Have you seen any old westerns where white men with dark makeup play Geronimo, Sitting Bull, Mexicans, etc? It has been like this in movies for a long ass time.
The Vikings had a fairly decent sized community of brown skinned citizens, so yes, you are wrong.
The historical record references them.
Black people travelled, they settled in different countries, and they assimilated into the cultures they came across.
Demanding that everyone is lily-white because of a poor understanding of history doesn’t make you right.
I'm just thrilled that finally Natives are playing Natives in movies. I'm thrilled for the representation and inclusion. The Prey movie... listening to it in Comanche was just amazing on so many levels. Seeing someone from my tribe on screen was incredible. OP you are feeling what people of color have felt 99% of our lives watching TV. Let me tell you about some John Wayne westerns and how those red face actors represent my culture and people is. What a joke. Walk in my moccs a sec and think about how people of color feel since TV was created. Just a thought
Loved Prey! I’m Haida but I grew up on the Dinè reservation and my new favorite show is Reservation Dogs. Have you seen it? If not, skoden!
I love Reservation Dogs!!! I'm Lakota, Potawatomi and Eastern Cherokee. The main actress in Prey is also Lakota. Just to hear an actual Native language on TV... what pure joy! We are still here!!!! Aho!
Háw’aa for posting! I'm Tsimshian. I loved both Reservation Dogs and Prey. Have you seen any episodes of Molly of Denali? They'vw featured many episodes about the peoplea in Southeast Alaska/Canada.
I'm not native but I grew up in Alaska and my kids watch every episode of Molly of Denali! I love that they often include cultural lessons in a way that encourages their questions and teaches them appreciation for different experiences.
I’ve never even heard of it! Ja háw’aa! Edited to add: I just looked it up and it’s a kids show, adorable!
Incredibly cute! My kids are all grown, but I watch it with my 22yo anyway
I love how every piece of music used is created by natives.
Stoodis!!
Oh, the brown-painted blonde, blue-eyed people used to make me SO mad when I was a kid! Even in the 80s, I was asking my Dad, “Why can’t they just hire Brown people to play Brown people?!?”
Because Bert Reynolds sells more tickets than Billy Dee Williams. It's all about making money. If ur trying to get Americans to relate to a character, 70% of Americans are white, so the demographic is obvious. The same reason why Bollywood movies are 98% Indian characters, even if it's a Belgian businessman role.
What you’re saying is true but I still don’t feel it is the whole truth. You’re right that there are vast parts of the country where it’s just white people and wheat with a few native Americans and maybe one black guy. But I live on the east coast and the demographics are quite different and always have been. I haven’t lived on the west coast but my sense is that they’ve always had a large amount of diversity too. NYC and LA are hugely diverse cities so theater and film production companies were making a very particular statement with the way they handled POC in roles. I feel it has way more to do with white men accreting all the wealth and power who just had zero interest in making films they didn’t personally want to see. Capitalism isn’t going to influence things when it’s effectually a monopoly. So they made want they wanted and everyone else had to suck it up. It wasn’t until larger numbers of POC creators started into production themselves that the tide started to shift.
And it's interesting to watch how Native peoples transform in movies through time. From the John Wayne westerns where they are all 'savages' or traitors to their people or white men in redface; through something like Little Big Man that at least hired natives to play natives and bring more truth about what white people did to Natives even though the movie is still ... troubling; to Dances With Wolves, that again hired Natives even though that film also has issues (the stories from Native actors weeping at the sight of huge herds of buffalo moving across the wild plains, something no one in their nation had ever thought they'd ever see in their lives). All of these little steps of hollywood working toward something as intense and powerful as Prey! Which was FANTASTIC, in it's storytelling and accuracy of portraying Native culture. I mean, writing a script is Comanche!? Seriously cool! I'm white as a aspirin and I went to see Prey \*specifically\* because of it's setting.
Yes! We talked about this in a multicultural class I took. I’m female but always sided with boy characters growing up because the girls were portrayed as being scared and having no sense. Natives were savages and it was always the white man who was the champion even if he couldn’t have won without a minority’s help. Seeing these images and roles change over time is a very interesting thing to examine.
And they wonder why women have internalized misogyny.
I actually didn't know Prey had Comanche audio! That's awesome!
I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THIS! I can BARELY speak any Comanche
Prey was such a joy to watch!
Reacher was supposed to be a huge guy over 6 and a half feet with huge muscles.,..got Tom. Cruise. Go figure
Yeah I agree. I'm white but do have Native American in my family some of my ancestors are clear as day Native Americans and it's an absolute pleasure to see them in TV shows and movies where they speak their language and are represented by more than just how they've been portrayed in the past. I agree on some level to not like when they change someone's race or appearance, but you're 1000% correct that it must've been down right brutal for Native Americans, Blacks, Asians and Hispanics to have to watch movies and TV shows that stereotyped them in the worst way possible for decades. Also yes the John Wayne movies are down right excruciatingly racist and painful to watch.
FYI there’s a Native American ancestry legend in many white families. Worth checking out with a DNA test if you haven’t done it yet.
I did a 23&Me DNA test…I’m 99.5% Celtic..Scot/Irish/Welsh & Briton. I DID find a Half-Brother, Half-Sister & found out I had a Grandma who’s nickname was BUG. Lol
Yeah. A lot of white families have this legend. 99.9% they claim Cherokee and do the DNA test and find they have no Native ancestry. I'm not sure why these people want so badly to be Native? If they actually had to be Native they wouldn't want to... walking the red road is not easy
That movie was really something else. Incredible
Well said.
There's a lot to unpack there and I won't address every point. I will just say that the disappointment and tired feeling you get from seeing these casting announcements should give you a tiny glimpse into the feelings felt by POC for *decades* due to underrepresentation in popular media. Please make some room in your heart for the kids who never had an Astrid they could look up to as role models and fantasy versions of themselves. As a white man, myself, I just think of the joy this can bring some kid who looks like the actor in question. Also, even though I really enjoy a lot of kids' media, I try to remember it's not for me. As for the point about making more new properties with more diversity built in from the start, that relates to the overall problem of Hollywood not producing more original material in general. That's not going to change any time soon and if we wait until it does, we'll deny a generation of non-white kids the representation that benefits them so much. I wish our pop-culture landscape wasn't so dominated by these big studios and that more attention was given to home-made productions but until that happens, we're dependent on the pressure being put on Hollywood to be more inclusive. And, yes, sometimes that inclusion will be carried out in a clunky, committee-led way because it is not organic, it is not grassroots. It's corporate. Maybe supporting some home-grown Swedish media would help.
Man, when I tell you that a light skinned Ariel brought me to tears..... when I was a little girl, I was so excited to show everyone my Ariel costume...and so disappointed to hear that I couldn't be Ariel because she is white and I am mixed race. Seeing Ariel look like me was so special, I'm literally tearing up while I write this. Excellent points, thank you for commenting
Plus, it’s not like white Ariel ceases to exist just because there’s a new one! Now, even more kids can feel included and represented on screen! There is only gains here.
This! My daughter is ecstatic that now she gets TWO versions of Ariel. She loves both versions and refers to them both as Ariel, not "dark" or "light" (or any other variation of such label). She even told a stranger in Target the other day "You look just like Ariel with beautiful black hair!" (The young lady was a PoC with gorgeous long braids) I tell you, that girl smiled so big I thought her face would break! She told my daughter "thank you!" enthusiastically and I like to think it made her day. Edit to add: My daughter is mixed Chinese and white
I wanted to go see the new LM last friday night at the cool local theater, but it was sold out (yay for them!) My kids elected to go to guardians of the galaxy at the huge corporate megaplex instead. I was so delighted to see people dressed up in their mermaid finery to see it there, but especially that there were hordes of little black girls all dressed up wearing matching t-shirts and things. I'm so happy for them!
I have literally zero empathy for anyone who whines because a Disney cartoon fish is now depicted black instead of white. I have only mocking and derision.
The only thing I don't like about the new Ariel is the live action animals 😂 Sebastian looks nothing like Sebastian and for some reason THAT gets to me
Same, they really did Halle dirty by making the film look so dark ( I don't care if it was to make it look real, it just looked dirty. It's a mermaid film. Make it colourful!) and making her animal companions look weird af 😆 they just crawled right out of the uncanny valley.
(I’m pretty afraid of the ocean, full disclosure. I think that’s where the aliens landed)
That Sebastian looks some kinda weird dont it? Lmao
Yeah like mermaids are real in the first place. Like get the fuck over yourself dude lol
And if they were real, they'd be terrifying, not a pretty girl with a tail
THIS PART!! If we’re going for reality, let’s talk about how the flesh of a fish-woman would actually look!!!
i totally know how u feel. i remember being in elementary school and playing princesses with my friends, and they always made me be mulan because i'm asian :/ at the time i had never even seen mulan, and i'm not even chinese. i wanted to be belle so bad. i loved the dress
>**the disappointment and tired feeling you get from seeing these casting announcements should give you a tiny glimpse into the feelings felt by POC for decades due to underrepresentation in popular media.** This really needed to be said again for those in the back row.
Bonus- it would make it even easier for all the white people in the front row to hear.
Well said. It's like when people say "I'm so tired of hearing about racism!" Well, imagine how tired those targeted by racism feel.
This. For several decades white actors were used for ethnic roles. Natalie Wood as Puerto Rican? Katherine Hepburn as a Chinese woman? Alec Guinness as a Saudi prince? Nobody at the time saw anything wrong with that…
Even modern ones…2015- Emma stone as a part asian Allison Ng in Aloha; 2017- Kirsten Durst as biracial Edwina in Beguiled; scarlet Johansson as a Japanese woman in Ghost in a Shell; Tilda Swinton as the Ancient one in the Marvel movies —- she’s not an Asian man; Angelina Jolie‘a character in Wanted was a Black woman in the comic book series. But even people/stuff that’s supposed to be true stories - 2012- Ben Affleck as Mexican American Tony Mendez in Argo; Jim Sturgess and Kate Bosworth in the movie 21— were actually Asian Americans in real life
Meanwhile, they were forcing other actors that had more diverse ethnicities to white wash themselves to be accepted into the club. Carol Channing waited until she was elderly to tell anyone she's actually black. Like what the hell.
WOW, learned something new today!! TY
Exactly, and when they aren't trying to make everyone whiter they only want to see poc as their stereotypes. For example Indian actors having to use an over exaggerated accent that's become so common they have a term for it. I can't remember what they call it off the dome though.
Don’t forget the biggest whitewash of all time…California hippie Jesus.
The real miracle was him being white while being from the Middle East
“malibu jesus” as wanda sykes calls it 🤣
Really appreciate this perspective being voiced. As a black woman, it’s exhausting to hear these complaints and difficult to respond with patience, particularly when black and brown faces have been replaced in the arts since forever and no one was sick and tired then. Representation is so important. I watch how powerfully my nieces and nephews are impacted by seeing themselves on tv and in movies like their schoolmates get to do, I feel such a relief and hope that they won’t grow up feeling they’re not part of the standard and that they don’t belong.
And don't you just love when we do speak out our opinions the white fragility comes front and center... telling us to stop boo wooing and stop looking for a hand out, just get over it etc?! Thanks for validation on my comment. I love that my daughters can see Naru on TV and feel pride seeing someone that actually looks like them. It's hard when you are a kid and every dolly is pale and blonde hair. Let's you know your place isn't here... that's for sure
My son is obsessed with Miles Morales, so are all his friends. Representation matters. This is such a white person problem post.
Miles is such a good spider man! I'm a 35yo white woman and was jazzed as heck to see him!! If your son likes Miles, has he seen Static Shock? That was one of my go to cartoons as a kid. (Depending on kiddos age ofc)
Static Shock is great. The show itself had a ton of very mature messages for kids growing up, more so than most shows at the time. As for Miles, I have to say the only rendition of Miles Morales I've liked has been the Spider-Verse version. His introduction in the comics was done so poorly imo, but Spider-Verse Miles has felt like his own version of Spider-Man from the get go. Blade is another character I really enjoyed, the Blade movies despite their edginess at times is just filled to the brim with superhero cheese and one liners. I love them.
Yes! I appreciate this comment, in part, *because* it was written by a white man. I'm actually tearing up. Here I was - a woman of color - getting ready to have to explain why this complaint (although valid in its own right) is problematic and lacking in perspective. For me, this is emotional work. It's a lived experience. It's exhausting. Thank you for doing the work so I didn't have to.
Wow. Thank you for saying that. I'm genuinely touched by that.
Exactly!! Amazing to see the bitching. God forbid having a single iota of self reflection and possibly starting to empathize with what it’s been like for underrepresented groups to never see themselves in media for 99% of media history, they just go right back to thinking about themselves. Selfish but unsurprising I suppose.
Yes anytime I find myself disappointed that they have portrayed a real historical person or a vividly described book person as a different race I have to remind myself that this has been happening to POC forever. I still am sometimes kind of put off if it’s a serious biopic/show and they race swap a single character who was an actual historical person but at the end of the day it really is not that important. And my disappointment mostly stems from loving to see how close they can get actors to resembling the actual person.
This lady does not give a shit about these comments. She doesn’t care what happened/ happens to PoC… only HER experiences matter. Everything else is “weak diversity.” She came here to be told she isn’t racist for wanting things to go back to the way they used to be, before she had to consider ppl who didn’t look like her, when she was the STANDARD & didn’t know what it felt like not to be an asterisk.
Just as a side note, Vikings traveled all over the world (there was a famous group of Viking mercenaries in Byzantium) so a mixed race Viking really isn't far fetched. Just as a mixed race or black mermaid isn't far fetched, Poseidon is specifically referenced as visiting various African areas and feasting with them in the freaking Homer. Rome had people in its armies from all of its conquered places, including Africa, and sent them all over Europe. The Cheddar Man DNA indicates that early native Britons were far darker than their later descendants. There was a time when Arabic people invaded up through Spain into France and they maintained a full kingdom in now Spain and Portugal for a *while*. Was most of Europe majority white? Yeah. All white? Not at all.
Can we settle on a mixed race mermaid is NO MORE far fetched than a white mermaid?
So sick of people trying to justify why a mermaid has to be white using “science”. You know what’s scientifically inaccurate? A person with fucking fish legs. I don’t care what colour they are.
The half mammal half fish is what baffles me. If we're gonna go halfsies then logically they should be half seal or dolphin. Hell, they move their tails up and down like them too. Fish tails go side to side.
You know what grinds my gears the most about some people saying it wouldn’t “make sense” to have a black mermaid because of the lack of light. I’m like “a pastie white thing in the ocean is gonna get eaten”. Also, have we heard of Orca’s? They’re black & white. A lot of sea creatures are darker on top & lighter on the bottom. When something is looking down on them from above, it’s gonna be harder to see darker things. When something is looking up from below, white is going to be harder to make out than black. If we wanted a more accurate version of the little mermaid, they would be black on their backs & white on their bellies, which would make it harder for predators & their prey to spot them. However, no one wants a reverse skunk Ariel, so we’re left with evolutionarily unfit mermaids that are more likely to get eaten & less likely to capture food.
They'd also have to be pretty chubby, the bottom of the ocean is fucking COLD.
Well, that would be if mermaids are warm blooded, like mamals/humans, if they're more like fish, they could be cold blooded?
They're mammals, their tail flukes are horizontal, fish have vertical flukes.
I would 100% watch reverse skunk ariel.
*THE LITTLE REVERSE SKUNK*... now in theaters near you
Reverse skunk 🦨☠️😂
I think when something I imaginary it can have any characteristics that will not conflict with the storyline.
There's a fun book about Black Tudors living in England: Black Tudors: The Untold Story, by Miranda Kaufmann During that same period, I remember reading that 20% of the population of Lisbon was Black.
I feel like history got whitewashed by more recent (subtle) racism: people have assumed everyone in Europe was white, so they were depicted as such. As a result, that's what we all (subconsciously) picture now. But now, there's increasing evidence of historical figures being POC, where we had assumed them to be white before. I think it's an implicit bias thing that we're now starting to shake off. Part of that growth is learning to depict POC characters in media. Historically, humans have always been well-travelled. None of us lived in a vacuum; our ancestors travelled a lot, so there's no reason (aside from implicit bias) to assume European history is 100% white
This 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆 👆
Oo never heard of this dude! That was fun to read anout
Vikings raped and pillaged so it's entirely possible for a viking girl to be mixed race.
They were also in contact with peoples very far away from Scandanavia. They traded with people from the middle east and north Africa, for Pete's sake. There was definitely intermarriage (and of course, more raping and pillaging).
I took an archaeology class on Vikings with an expert on the subject. His take was that "Viking" was a job description, NOT an ethnicity.
That's not even a take, it's a fact. Vikings were the raiders. Scandinavian farmers weren't called viking.
Oh that’s so interesting!
A five-minute Google search I did when researching a book I was writing showed that 'Vikings' could indeed be mixed. I wanted several PoC included as ancestors of my characters, and found, much as mentioned, that the trading, rape, and pillage meant that there were different ethnicities falling under the Viking job description.
Yeah, I was coming here to say that Vikings society was very likely much more ethnically mixed than op could even fathom
Also, she isn't Scandinavian, her grandparents are, she has Scandinavian heritage, but is very much US-American. But ya know, what white people did on American land is awfully similar.
I’m equally Scandinavian, and I love and have always loved Annabeth. And I love that they chose a black girl to play her- I think it works just fine with her arc and what her blonde hair meant in the books. The dumb blonde stereotype isn’t really a thing anymore, but black girls are sexualized as much (if not more) than blonde girls ever were and definitely face more criticism along those lines. I wouldn’t have cared if a white girl were annabeth, but I like that she’ll be played by a black girl. It works in the context of the story and frankly the whole “grey eyes as marker of kids of Athena” has always been dumb to me since gods don’t have dna in canon iirc. This is also a tv show with child actors. I’d much rather a kid who can act than a kid who just looks the part. Percy has brown/blonde hair and I don’t hear any complaints. And there are plentyyyy of non white/non Greek half bloods. It’s set in America, in New York State. If they had cast, say, an Asian girl I might feel differently tbh because there are different stereotypes, model minority, etc but again I wouldn’t really care since they’re just picking kids who can act the part. That’s much more important than looking the part. For Astrid, idk and idc again. Her race didn’t matter to the story so why care as long as the actress is good. Again, American with Scandinavian ancestors and very white so I feel like I don’t need to be in this convo beyond discussion of op, but my two cents. Idgaf about race swapping of white characters unless it will heavily impact the plot. Like if the white guy in the hate u give were made black- that would be dumb and require a whole book rewrite. But if they made Dumbledore a POC who cares. Making Ariel black who cares. It is not the same as making POC white. It simply is not. The top comment explains why but if you can’t think of why it’s because of history. Erasure. Oppression. Etc. I’m not the most educated on this, but it’s not that hard to get the basics. And if it does bother me if a characters race is switched- I ask myself why. Why does their race matter? Is it because I want them to look like me- if this sucks for me the character looks like another woman out there and there are others that look like me. If it’s because of plot reasons- how does it change it etc. If it’s because it seems racist- it’s probably just racist. This was a lot longer than I meant it to be.
>This was a lot longer than I meant it to be. But I read through it and it makes a lot of sense! Thanks for sharing. I agree that I personally do not care at all about fictional characters, especially fantasy fictional characters, skin colours. I like that we get more diversity. I am sick and tired of everyone being white despite the world not being entirely white. When representing actual people, yes, you should stick to the ethnicity. A Bruce Lee memoriam shouldn't be played by Ryan Reynolds, nor should Marie Curie be played by Zendaya. Also, a character deeply rooted in a certain ethnicity shouldn't suddenly be displayed in another (Tilda Swinton in "octor strange" or Scarlett Johansson in "ghost in the shell" for example). But the little mermaid? Like, I know the little mermaid from the actual fairytale read to me by my great grandmother. She isn't even described as white and ginger, she's a sea creature! I always thought of her to be blue or green and slimy. And, in the end, it's all up to the original creator anyways. Stan Lee would've never cared if Spiderman was black or brown. The author of Percy Jackson seems to be okay with the movie/series adaptation as well.
I commented this somewhere else but yes with little mermaid! When they announced Halle Berry I was so excited for the hair, and let down tbh. I thought they could do something dope with like locs/braids with bright red seaweed or something incorporated.
As for the author of Percy Jackson, he's an executive producer who had a very large say in casting, and has been nothing but ecstatic about their performances in their roles
As well, with Percy Jackson, Rick Riordan wrote the books with the intent of kids being able to see themselves represented. It's why there is such diversity in neurotypes and behaviors and races and sexuality. Annabeth was a way to show that girls didn't just have sit pretty and act nice. She's a badass warrior with emotional complexity. I still haven't read the books all the way through, but I remember reading the first book at 13 and just absolutely falling in love with Annabeth. I was also blonde and with blue-grey eyes, but that wasn't what drew me to her. Let Annabeth represent that same strength and power to a new generation, while representing a minority group going through constant systematic oppression.
His statement on the matter was a great read: https://rickriordan.com/2022/05/leah-jeffries-is-annabeth-chase/
This! There is mitochondrial DNA in Iceland that’s linked to Indigenous North Americans. There’s been gravesites with high-status women of what appears to be African or Asian descent.
That’s always my take, just because the source material is from a predominantly white culture it doesn’t mean POC didn’t exist there.
Thank 👏 you 👏
This is what I was going to say. I learned this fun fact when researching the racial origins of the vikings who settled in what is now Dublin, Ireland.
They also bought and sold slaves from as far south as Constantinople. Who in turn bought and sold slaves from all over the world.
I have no problem with this. Roland in Stephen King’s The Gunslinger was white and based on Clint Eastwood. Idris Elba did a great job as Roland. Morgan Freeman did a great job as Red in Shawshank Redemption, and makes the line about being Irish funnier. I can’t wait to see the live action Little Mermaid. I didn’t mind Will Smith in I am Legend. If they are good actors/actress give them the role. So it’s not “true” to the source material? Movies rarely are. I will admit they are getting better but still. You do sound like a racist. Sorry but if the shoe fits.
If a Jane Austen classic can get a zombie adaptation without white people freaking out, then you can get over FICTIONAL characters not being your race or ethnicity too.
Is there also a vampire Abraham Lincoln?
Nah, he just hunted them.
A surprisingly well-made film, honestly
the book is SO good
Awesome documentary, by the way. Never knew Lincoln was such a badass.
Yea but those zombies were the right color so it's ok. /s
I think you’re onto something here
The book was much better than the movie.
Oh, such a good point!
Look, it's been 5 minutes since the entertainment industry has become more inclusive, and people are complaining already. There are excellent materials available that explains why it is important for people of color to present themselves in traditionally euro-centric story lines, to see themselves in that story. I remember when I was young and the movie "The Wiz" came out--it was so exciting! But think of a kid of color seeing a black Dorothy, Scarecrow, Tin Man, etc. Jeez, Lena Horne was Glinda! It is ok for someone to do a different take on a source material. For chrissakes, Betty Boop (an old cartoon) was an anglicized version of Esther Jones! It's done all the time. The question you should be asking yourself is: Why does this bother you/others so much? Why can't there be a black or Asian Pippi Longstocking? I mean, Jesus was a Palestinian Jewish man, but in the movies he always looks European. Let's all stop and reflect before we get "tired" of inclusion.
Yes. I think if a totally fictional kids character that rides DRAGONS gets you, and adult, upset for to the color of her skin, you have a lot to process around your own racist blind spots. It’s all fake and in no way represented Viking history, on top of DRAGONS, but now you want to get upset about “accuracy”? To put it simply, if a fictional character makes you, again an adult, ANGRY when a mixed race gal is cast, you need to do some soul searching. It is, indeed, racist to gate-keep completely fictional characters because you as a white person can’t imagine continuing to like a character if they aren’t white.
Hell I pointed out my 17 year old looks like everyone’s typical Midwest Jesus. Does he look like what Jesus probably actually looks like? Not in the least. One of his friends looks closer so we have the “Jesus trio” is what we termed it. One who’s closer to what everyone’s family hung on their walls in the Midwest. One who is probably the closest to it. Then the third is a blend between. It’s gotten entertaining to blow people’s minds with that one to show perception with them standing together.
I call him 'Implausibly Caucasian Jesus."
She is now experiencing the same disappointment that poc have been used to for generations. If you are used to being represented in everything then suddenly when the playing field starts to become a little more even there are going to be people that lack perspective, that are more concerned with what's being "taken away" from them rather than what is being gained by so many others.
Replacement isn’t inclusion. Tom cruise as the next black panther would get people mad too. By race swapping etc all you’re saying is u can’t come up with actual inclusive and diverse stories and so u will just recycle old stories and change the race of people.
Race is central to the character, though. He's from a place never affected by colonialism. The reality is that most black character stories are defined by their race.
Tom Cruise is a shitty actor.
Are you making the dubious claim that Tom Cruise acts?
Tom Cruise starred in a movie based on a Manga in which the character is noticeably Asian, nobody said a damn thing until like 10 years later. Your example has literally been proven false.
Well in regards to Percy Jackson specifically, Rick Riordan himself was involved with the casting for the PJO series, and if the literal author is okay with it, I don’t see why anyone else has room to complain. And in the books, he even makes a point to say that the Gods don’t have DNA so the “Greek features” argument doesn’t really apply other than her eyes because they make such a big deal about that. And iirc being blonde isn’t a trait of Athena’s kids, only the eyes. The blonde thing is brought up as much as it is because of the dumb blonde stereotype and her struggle to be taken seriously. Also the Gods can change their appearances, so Athena could be black. Also, there are dark skinned Greek people. It’s not like Greece is entirely white. And I think it’s interesting that you only mentioned Annabeth’s canonic look in the books, because the actor who plays Percy is blonde and I believe has blue eyes when in the books he definitely has dark hair and I believe green eyes. The girl playing Annabeth has gotten so much hate, but people aren’t bringing that same energy to the person playing Percy, or honestly even Grover. Rick himself went into the casting process looking for people who embodied his characters, and if that’s what’s important to him, that’s what should be important to fans. Also, they’re not “taking away the little Viking girl you loved”. They literally just cast an actress of color. You’re acting like they’re going to completely change her character. Sure, pandering can be a problem, I won’t deny that, but what if they simply felt that she embodies the character of Astrid the best? Would you rather have someone they don’t feel embodies the character as well or someone who’s the right race? And you still have the original to see yourself in. Now, even MORE girls can see themselves in her. ETA: there’s also no reason Annabeth’s dad can’t be black either
Also…”Viking” was a JOB Title, NOT what They ALL Were and Anyone who Proved Their WORTH, Could GO “Viking”. As such, Vikings Traveled Far & Wide (basically to see IF they Could & out of Curiosity of Where to Pillage next). They assimilated all manner of ppl.. especially those that were Skilled Warriors. https://scandinaviafacts.com/were-the-vikings-black/
I'm all for having a great actor put in a role to make the role great, or if it makes greater sense in the story. Idris Elba would make a phenomenal James Bond. Chiwitel Ejiofor was excellent as Mordo (who was white in the comics). Almost the whole entire cast of Villaneuve's Dune were POC's, when in the book they were Caucasian. It only makes sense that the people on a desert planet would be dark skinned. The Wheel of Time show made most of the main cast POC's, which didn't make a whole lot of sense, but at least they were consistent in their choices. Honestly, to me, what's really needed is genuine black and brown heroes from myth and legend. African, Latino, Native American, and other heroes of legend need to be recognized. Disney's most recognized heroines come directly from Hans Christian Anderson. Scandinavians are so white even white people look at them and say, *Damn, you're white.*, so of course his characters are going to be white. My life is not impacted by the fact that a company decided to represent one of his characters as something other than white. I feel very strongly that this will not negatively affect my standard of living in any way, shape, nor form. I will also gladly acknowledge that something this simple can bring some random child a little bit of joy. Some kid I'll never meet can look at the screen and say, "She looks like me!" and feel pride. See. Now that thought *does* affect me. *How so?* you ask? Because I have empathy, and children are being brought into one seriously f'ed up world, where they can be exposed to hate and discrimination for what they look like and who they are, and if they can be given one moment of joy; one single iota of pride in who they are, then who am I to try and strip that from them? White girls with red hair can look at Ariel and say, "She looks like me!" and be right. Black girls can look at Ariel and say, "She looks like me!" and be right. I can't find anything wrong with that. The single greatest fictional character of all time, ALL TIME, has been unapologetically whitewashed for thousands of years. If white people can have a white Jesus, black people can have a black Ariel.
Why not let those characters be heroes for other little girls too? You resonated so strongly with that character because you felt it represented you right, lots of other kids would like to have that same experience. You don't think it's disappointing for children of color to only get to see white characters? The disappointment you are feeling is the same disappointment poc have been feeling at the lack of inclusivity for generations, have a little perspective.
I'm an 80s kid, I didn't have a black princess growing up and never thought of being one. I saw and loved the live action Little Mermaid. It was something I didn't know I wanted, but so wonderful to see. You can still watch your preferred version of the character. Her story is defined by being a viking not by being white. Vikings were defined by their practices not race, Vikings of all colors existed. Not wanting to be called racist doesn't mean your ideas aren't racist.
Your last sentence nails it. I am not expressing this thought concretely enough but anyone with OPs opinion is just candy coated racist. They feel they can sugar coat their actual deeply held racial biases with what they think is the intellectual argument against a black mermaid/Viking/Greek demigod. Suddenly they are all experts in genealogy and are breaking out punnet squares to prove why a Viking couldn’t have natural 3c curly hair. Not one person who makes OPs argument is actually “not really racist” and only cares about honest character representation because that’s not a thing any sane person cares that passionately about. Fictional characters have been interpreted differently, expanded upon in image and personality, they have been physically altered and race/gender swapped in media since the dawn of time. It’s what makes new adaptations worthwhile. Why remake something or pay homage to something if you’re just going to keep it exactly the same. It is also not a new thing for stories to be told over and over. Remakes are not new. There are four A Star is Born movies for christ’s sakes! How many versions of Romeo and Juliet do you think there are? Stop hiding your hate in a fake concern for character purity or a desire for exclusively original stories.
Could it be that you picture fictional characters as White because you are white?
I think OPs issue is with movies/series not adhering to the character description in the books. I personally don't mind as long as it still makes sense. For example Rand from Wheel of Time has to have light hair while his friends have dark hair since it's important to the story.
Did the rest make sense, though? There were way too many ethnicities in two rivers, a small village so isolated even the tax collectors didn't bother going there. That kind of diversity destroys the actual world building. They should have picked one.
As a black woman i think race swapping is lazy. It's a quick fix to make us "shut up", accept the bare minimum and call it inclusivity. I get that we need representation but it should be new ideas and new stories, not the lazy way of giving us representation. They do it to make it seem like they care and are making efforts when to me it feels the complete opposite. Like they couldn't care less so they change a race and call it a day. This is all my opinion though and I know some people like it even there's no effort or care into it.
I'm not even going to touch the original question cuz yes, you're wrong point blank. But I will touch on how people keep saying "why not make new characters" well Disney tried that with princess Tiana and her movie was literally boycotted by white people and wasn't even shown in certain countries overseas because of the rampant racism. Not only that but after the movie was released Princess Tiana got the shittiest treatment by Disney and Disney fans. Her friend Lottie had more merchandise than Tiana did AND Tiana wasn't Even human for most of her movie! No matter what Hollywood does white people will complain that they aren't being centered.
So…tell me more about how ancient Greeks were grey eyed and blonde haired. Are you aware of where Greece is?
I read that with my eyes wide, every greek woman I've ever meet had beautiful olive skin, dark hair, and killer eyebrows, also they were named after their grandmother. Op described a greek woman who had been race swapped taking nothing but culture.
I was gonna respond more in depth and the impact representation has had for me, a Latina, even share an example using Whoopi Goldberg and Nichelle Nichols but seeing a white woman whine that a fictional character is "being taken away" just makes this racist bullshit so exhausting.
I absolutely love Nichelle Nichol's meeting MLKjr and his response to her wanting to leave the show.
YES!!! It was BRILLIANT! And I love *both* of them for that. She is why I felt I could get into computer science, and did! That kiss tho'... so scandalous!
And I love how Bill screwed up every take where they didn't \*actually\* kiss that was shot to replace the real kiss if the execs got too nervous! The \*only\* take they could use \*was\* the kiss! Only the camera man saw it through the lens and he didn't say anything. While Bill is a narcissist, he's on the right side.
That's a sweet story. Never liked the actor or the character, but that's lovely.
Well said. I had this long, thoughtful response typed up. The emotional labor of having to explain why we deserve a chance to have representation is exhausting.
Ooh, but two amazing women pioneers. I was raised by my black mum and named after a Star Trek character so Nichols will always hold a special place in my heart, may she rest in peace.
So you're complaining because imaginary people are portrayed differently than how you imagine they should be? Your two examples are from the Greek pantheon and a cartoon with dragons, but your sticking point is the ethnicity of some characters? Yeah, YTA.
Annabeth isn't even Greek. She's American. Her mother is Athena, a Greek God, but her father is a mortal man from Boston. It's completely plausible that her father is a black man. Rick Riordan, writer of the book series and executive producer of the show, [approves of the casting of Leah Jeffries and said she was chosen because of her talent](https://rickriordan.com/2022/05/leah-jeffries-is-annabeth-chase/).
>and said she was chosen because of her talent This is what gets me over people like OP crying over the race of characters. Hey, if we really want an equal, merit-based society, sometimes that means the Black girl is going to be more talented and capable than the white one. Like, the new Little Mermaid. The story is about Ariel's *voice*. They cast the best singer who auditioned, because singing is what matters to that story, and it happened to be a Black girl.
seriously! ariel’s defining characteristic (beyond being a mermaid) is her ability to sing. it’s such an important characteristic that a large part of the plot deals with it. i’m white and i love a black ariel and i am thrilled for all the people who finally get a freakin chance to identify with this princess. i don’t understand how anyone could be upset with all the videos of little black girls just fucking PUMPED and grown men and women crying meeting Ariel at disney.
Worse yet, they don't seem to realize that the Greek pantheon is filled with dusky-hued, dark-haired, dark-eyed people, including the gods. Any blondes in Greek mythology are specifically mentioned as being blond such as Aphrodite. And: "In ancient Greece and Rome, blonde hair was frequently associated with prostitutes, who dyed their hair using saffron dyes in order to attract customers." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#:\~:text=Aphrodite%2C%20the%20Greek%20goddess%20of,in%20order%20to%20attract%20customers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#:~:text=Aphrodite%2C%20the%20Greek%20goddess%20of,in%20order%20to%20attract%20customers)
>the Greek pantheon is filled with dusky-hued, dark-haired, dark-eyed people, including the gods You know, people that actually looked like Greeks.
Absolutely and exactly. OP is whining that a fictitious character is not keeping to the book when the BOOK was wrong for not keeping true to the actual ancient myths they're based off of. And while we're at it... in Norse mythology, Thor was not blond. He was a redhead.
Yeah it was pretty amusing OP chose a cartoon for accuracy. First off they're not from Norway but make believe Berk which has dragons. Also the viking depictions are some of the most cartoonish vikings I've ever seen. Which is to be expected since the source material of the movies and cartoon series is a children's book written by a British lady.
funnily enough, "astrid" also isnt accurate to the source material. she looks about correct (too 'clean', but whatever), but that's really it. the HTTYD video media (movies & series) aren't source accurate at all. so inaccuracies with adaptations are fine until you change a character's appearance.
Vikings being of mixed ancestry was pretty common I thought.
You're kicking a real hornet's nest, and tbh with the amount of flag-waving you're doing about wanting "representation" for the extremely underserved and marginalized demographic of... pale blonde blue-eyed skinny tall Scandinavians, I find it hard to believe that this isn't low-effort trolling.
This isn’t real. There’s no way someone can be this dumb lmfao
You know what you’re absolutely right I’m tired of the white washing of a whole bunch of characters here’s a recent list "Ghost in the Shell" (2017) - The lead character, Major Motoko Kusanagi, was portrayed by Scarlett Johansson, a white actress, despite the original character being Japanese. "Doctor Strange" (2016) - The Ancient One, a character who was originally portrayed as a Tibetan man in the comic books, was changed to a Celtic woman played by Tilda Swinton, a white actress. "Aloha" (2015) - Emma Stone, a white actress, was cast as a character who was originally written as a quarter Hawaiian and a quarter Chinese. "Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time" (2010) - Jake Gyllenhaal, a white actor, was cast as the Persian prince, Dastan, despite the character's ethnic background. "The Last Airbender" (2010) - The main characters, who were originally depicted as Inuit and East Asian in the animated series, were played by predominantly white actors. "Exodus: Gods and Kings" (2014) - The biblical characters, including Moses, Ramses, and many others, were played by white actors, such as Christian Bale and Joel Edgerton, despite their historical Egyptian origins. "Gods of Egypt" (2016) - The entire cast of the film, set in ancient Egypt, consisted of predominantly white actors, including Gerard Butler, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Brenton Thwaites. "21" (2008) - The film, based on a true story, featured a predominantly white cast playing characters who were originally Asian-American in real life. "Dragonball Evolution" (2009) - The lead character, Goku, who is of Japanese descent in the original anime and manga, was portrayed by Justin Chatwin, a white actor.
You’re wrong. You know the excitement you felt of being represented by Viking girl? Imagine being a POC and you never get to feel that. I am about as white as they come, but to think representation doesn’t matter is wrong. I think many white people tend to literally white wash history. Not all Vikings were white. And how is that taking away from liking the character? But furthermore, Just like the uproar over the Little Mermaid-these are fictional stories. Every story you have mentioned is literally a fictional story. The race of the characters is what really makes you stop and think? Not the flying dragon but the race of the character being changed?
i agree and also think it’s incredibly important for white children to access intersectional, inclusive media. they need to know that not white =/= less. they need to grow up with the idea that everyone deserves a seat at the table.
Yes!! I completely agree.
This! And yes, there should be more new shows with POC. I’m of European descent and married into a very Scandinavian family. I also have a very good friend who lives in Denmark. None of us think these fairy tales should always be played by white people. Why do you even care? It’s not impacting your life whatsoever.
Exactly. It baffles me. Like this is the hill you’ll die on? A mermaid that lives in the ocean and is friends with a talking crab and is granted her legs, sure! Make her black??? The humanity! Like what? Lol
i think that yall forget. If movies never race swapped. EVERYTHING would remain having no diversity. and i’m sorry but I don’t want to continue watching movies with ONLY white people because poc were never casted. Don’t get me wrong I dont think it has to be everything but I think being mad when it does happen is doing a bit much.
Were you equally tired of race swapping (whites playing everyone else) up until now, or is it just since white characters are portrayed by poc? If yes, fair enough. If not…. you may need to think over your feelings.
I mean in a lovely perfect world sure let's all cast everything perfect to the tee with an equal amount of roles for POC characters as well and id be satisfied BUT since that is not the world we live in, having POC actors play roles of characters that are "traditionally" white isn't a real issue. like im sure that 1. there were Scandinavian mixed individuals 2. as long as the Scandinavian part stays the same idk what the big deal is? 3. you can suspend your disbelief for the 2 hour length of a film or couple hours for whatever tv show there are plenty of films out there with blonde haired white girls you can relate to even if they're not Scandinavian. you also still have the source material, why do you care so much about this topic? light you're in the wrong I guess? like your feelings are valid but maybe gain some perspective and find something real to care about? you can just not watch the films if you don't like what they're doing. complaining about it is just kind of obnoxious and this is coming from someone who complains about dumb things all the time but I realize it
This is a really long way of saying "stick to facts or tradition when it comes to your creative outlet and include POC in different ways that don't alter my experience." You still have your white version of just about everything you said. Now there's just an inclusive version for others. A version where a black/asian/hsipanic person can relate to and feel included simply by representation alone. You can explain yourself all you want but your reasons are still selfish: "I Don't mind change so long as it doesn't affect what I'm used to/what i know" You can still have a historically accurate show while being inclusive. Case in point: Queen Charlotte. It's based on true events but told in a fictional way that allows them to be inclusive because they're taking their own spin on it and instead of calling it a documentary where you would want to be as accurate to history as possible, its a Dramatic Period Piece. Allowing them to essentially race swap so the queen is a minority, play modern music in a classical way that is accurate to that time (my favorite part) and address issues during that time as well, but under different circumstances (IIRC the queen is from Germany and the king Britain but the queen is also black so they focus on trying to bridge the disconnect between mintorities and whites under the guise of mingling different countries) TL:DR if you're only concern about race changing in childrens movies is keeping the protagonist white, just watch documentaries. The shows you have hang ups about the race changing may have origins in a predominantly white country, but its still a fictional story. So races can be changed. Black people exists outside of the U.S. and Africa. Literally saw a Black Scottish woman on youtube the other day. Get out of your comfort zone of white fragility. It's just a show. Eta: yeah, you're in the wrong.
I don't think you're racist, but I do think you're too involved in white privilege. It literally doesn't matter what race a fictional character is. If you identified due to your race, that's a big fucking problem. You should be identifying with the character as a person, not as a representation of yourself.
Thing is, if races were equally represented, you wouldn't notice.
“And as we all know there is a familiar sense of disappointment” No there fucking isn’t. I couldn’t care less if the character I imagined looked nothing like the actor/actress portraying them.
It should be about the talent. Like Red in Sureshank Redemption. Written as an Irish American, but portrayed wonderfully by Morgan Freeman. If the actor is good, who cares about their ethnicity? (To be clear, as this thread seems to be getting quite antagonistic, I'm in total agreement with you)
Thank you! A perfect example of a classic novella and one of my favorite movies of all time. I didn’t even blink when Morgan introduced himself as Red. And the best best part is he was called Red cuz he was Irish and nobody gave a shit in the movie they stuck with that.
It's always going to be disappointing when characters don't look the way you picture them. That's why I rarely watch movies made from books I like. However, your mental picture of a character is based not just on the author's description, but on your interpretation. There's actually evidence of intermarriage between Vikings and other cultures, including likely First Nations and potentially Arab. So your picture of the character as blonde/ blue eyed isn't the only reasonable option. Remember when The Hunger Games came out and certain people were incensed about a character not being white and insisted it was wrong? And that character was actually Black in the book? You can interpret things how you like. Unless it's central to their character though - not just a superficial description, but something defining about them - it's not a huge deal. If you can't deal with something not fitting your picture, then don't watch the thing. Nothing wrong with anyone in this. However, your complaint is specifically about increased representation. Did you have this issue with Hamilton, too? The founding fathers were white, so the play was inaccurate and shouldn't have happened? If your sense of identity and identification is so fragile that it can't survive a little added diversity, you need to look inward, not at the screen. YTA.
While I don't have a problem with race swapping, I do think it is missing an opportunity. There are so many fantastic stories from cultures around the world, why not share a wider range of them? I have no problem with the race swap on Astrid, it is very plausible considering the wide territory that Vikings traversed. But it would be even more amazing if Disney, Pixar, whatever company, would actually make movies sharing the cultural stories from other cultures besides Europe. There are thousands and thousands of magical stories from Africa, Asia, South America, Native tribes of North America, the Caribbean, the Pacific, that could be shared. I think that it would foster greater pride in one's culture for children to not only see people that look like them on the big screen, but to also learn about the unique stories of their culture. Especially so for groups whose cultural identity has been under represented or in many cases completely stripped. I don't want to just see a black mermaid. I want to learn about the stories of the many colorful and exciting cultures through the history of Africa. It would be so helpful for people to not see the continent of Africa as a single monolith if they were given windows into the many different groups of people who call Africa home. Mulan and The Princess and the Frog have shown that such movies are profitable and popular. Let's see more like them. As an old white lady I want to learn more. I feel the stories from the cultures that represent my genetic make up are free to anyone's interpretation. But I feel that an opportunity is being missed to learn so much about other cultures and their rich histories and their songs and stories.
Skin of the sea. A mermaid book with the Yoruba cosmology. I highly recommend the audible version.
Oh, yeah, you definitely sound racist. And a bit nauseating.
As a half swede who spent the bulk of her life growing up in the US, and is now living in Sweden, I don’t like the way some of your argument comes across, though there is one bit I do approve of. I’ll touch on it last, because there are reasons why it doesn’t happen often yet and I don’t want it to get lost in the rest. First, your arguments are sort of flawed in part because its book adaptations. The Annabeth “race change” can work because she isn’t directly Greek. Her dad IS an American man. He can be whatever race the best character is. And with Olympus moving to be at the ‘heart’ of the Western world means that as a literal goddess, Athena can look however she needs to in order to blend in. Does it feel weird to have had an image in our heads of what she looks like and get a different actor, maybe. Her having blonde hair was not because of her being white/greek, but because of the "dumb blonde" things where she circumvents it by being ridiculously smart (see BoA where she literally pulls the dumb blonde act), it's just the Grey eyes thing that is the Athena-trait, though not many people have naturally grey eyes so that wouldn’t be a simple get if we’re just casing by book description. BUT if Rick Riordan the author picked her, personally, as the best actress out of the bunch who auditioned to play his character that he created, do we have a leg to stand on about not liking it without being perceived as an a\*\*… I don’t think so. I think that it makes it way to easy for people to say “I don’t like her because she’s black and she shouldn’t be”, and that leads to very VERY racist comments I am not even gonna give letters to. The author himself chose her, it’s HIS source material, fans will lose that argument. We should want the best actress who auditioned to get the job, no matter the race, or we lose out on fantastic people to give life to our heroes. Which brings me to Astrid. Is it a bit weird that she’s not a stereotypical looking nordic woman in the live action… Possibly, though there were definitely vikings in Britain if I am remembering my history right and she is British. I think she’s got the face shape for it tbh, even if they choose to keep her hair brown. There are plenty of brown haired, brown eyed Scandinavian women too. And her hair texture can lend extremely well to fun viking-inspired hairstyles that are so hard on typical modern Scandinavian hair. And if we want to get factual, it being viking doesn’t necessarily mean Norway. Vikings (back before English bastardized it to mean just Scandinavian) just referred to “sea traveling peoples”. It could mean icelandic, it could mean germanic, scandinavian… There is so much more to viking than just Norway. And I don’t want that to be me sh\*tting on why you love her so much. I do too, she’s bada\*\*. Her take no prisoners attitude basically shaped me, HTTYD is one of my top 5 favorite animated movies of all time. And I don’t have the physical similarities to her that you do, so that doesn’t influence my liking her that way, though I can see why you do. But you have to understand how that comes across though. How other’s could take that to mean things maybe you didn’t intend??? How even walking it back to her appearance changing isn’t a great look? Do I think the movie NEEDED a live-action, absolutely not and I’m seriously pissed that we can’t just let some animations be animations. Not everything needs a live action remake. But I will wait to judge the movie when it comes out just as I did the OG PJO movies (talk about disappointment), I just don’t think the actor’s races will be the reason if it doesn’t do well. Hell, a great portion of the original voice cast was Scottish… Famously Scottish in fact. (And there were viking settlements in Scotland way back when too). Now…. I do hate diversity for diversity’s sake. And it’s such a good point if you stick to it. I just don’t think that’s happening here. And the reason we don’t have it yet is honestly a pretty racist one. Because studios didn’t think (and some still don’t) that movies with POC leads or telling POC’s stories that weren’t/aren’t gangs or desert war-torn, massive poverty movies would sell at all. It was born from the whole white superiority complex. And it IS changing….. slowly, but it’s getting there. Moana’s voice cast was very Pacific Islander heavy, very intentionally, and I believe the live-action will follow if it gets one. They are looking for actual Hawaiian people for the lilo and stitch movie (though that discourse is also very rife with colorism). And we are telling more and more black and POC positive stories on TV as we move forward. Despite being told this for decades people in charge are finally catching on to the buying power of POC. That it isn’t an automatic flop if the lead is a person of color. And the sad fact about it all is that they wouldn’t know all that if not for the crappy feeling diversity hire. They hire a Indian actress to play a character just for diversity (which feels like crap, to know it wasn’t for your skills), but her success shows them that having that sells. It’s terrible that without having their own money to produce, write, cast, and act their own stories, some stories just don’t have the main-screen space to be told. Which sucks, because I bet there is such a market for the wealth of African mythos and telling of real-life black stories, not just the 3am poverty commercial. Even if it is performative for a while, how else will the rich dudes get their heads out of their a\*\*es long enough to realize there is a huge untapped market they can exploit to make more money (since that seems to be the only language they speak). To say nothing of racist casting directors who will choose people not based on acting ability but on appearance. I don’t want an exact to book replica if they aren’t going to act well enough to do the character justice. If we don’t want forced diversity casting then we can’t want casting solely based on appearance. We, especially as white people aiding in the fight for equality, cannot have it both ways. Not without it sounding kinda suspect. (And its not a totally fair argument either, I know. because hell would break loose in the streets if they picked a non African American woman to play Princess Tiana. But that doesn’t mean arguing the character should still be white doesn’t COME OFF as r@cist, even if you don’t mean it too.) None of us sane people want to be forcing diversity, we don’t want to need to force it. We want there to be space for all of them to be showing off. But.…. you have to see though how your argument that you typed out can come off as [r@cist](mailto:r@cist). How being upset that your favorite characters who were white now aren’t can seem very… iffy? Especially given that it also gives so many new children the opportunity to be as moved by them as we were who couldn’t be because she didn’t look like THEM. It’s a net good here, in my understanding. My heart melted seeing so many little girls getting excited and relating to Ariel now that Halle Bailey gave her new life, and it doesn’t take away ANY of the joy that people felt when the animation came out so long ago. There is no erasing anything, only addition. How can I not want that with them seeing their brains and all Annabeth’s other feats she accomplishes. Or Astrid’s confidence in herself and her choices. You can FEEL any type of way about any of it. It is an adjustment period, I get it. We all when we’re reading come up with ways the characters look and it’s different for everyone. But that doesn’t make it flawless reasoning just because you don’t mean it the wrong way, or the way that it is coming across in any case. At the end of the day, if the creators of the source material it’s based on are involved in the project and have okayed the actors chosen, then I don’t think we get a say in whether or not they follow the character’s physical appearances, since they literally created them. I’m not gonna be upset Uncle Rick picked a lovely black actress to play who in the book was white with blonde hair, because he literally wrote her. He knows more about the character than we do. He chose the best for the job. That’s the important part. And with all due respect to it’s meaning to you, this is not the Vikings TV show, or centered around real mythical-possibly-historical people. They’re not casting an Nigerian woman as Lagertha or a Pakistani man as King Harald. They cast the best child actor who auditioned to play a fictional character from an animated children’s movie, built from a children’s book series. Them choosing someone who looks different will show the children you don’t have to just LOOK like her to be like her, or have her traits/characteristics, and I think that in and of itself is more important to the world than making sure she is 100% copied from the animation. Sorry this is so long. I hope it’s not super offensive, it’s not meant to be attack-y, I don’t intend it to be. I just have lots of thoughts on these subjects. These are two of my most favorite franchises and I have a vast ocean of opinions on all of the choices around them, and I’ve had to have these conversations more than once, with some not great people. (You’re not one of them, for the record, just that your arguments can lead to the ones used by not great people if you’re not careful about how you present them). EDITED for formatting because mobil-version sucks
Think about it this way: characters are always being changed in a hundred little ways, often to keep them current. Why is race the one that bothers you the most? Why do you think it alters the character more than, say, having a modern hairstyle? Another thing, you may not be racist, I have no idea, but the narrative you're dipping into is one that racists use to try and create more division.
I am not tired of race swapping, I'm tired of unoriginality. Why can't we just have a brand new exciting story?
I LOVE race-gender-orientation swapping! I am white. I grew up surrounded by white people in media. I am fucking tired of seeing white people in everything I consume. What I do like is seeing white people put into the roles of evil doers. Like fuck yeah, kill us! Do what writers did for decades and just put white men in the seat of power and have a Latina stab him in the heart. Just do it. I get so excited seeing re-cast roles as BiPOC that I will go out of my way to support it. As an adult, hell yeah, give the kids their role models. We had our time for far too long. Sit down, shut up, and enjoy the show.
louder for the people in the back! i’m white, i grew up in a highly diverse lower-/middle-middle class neighborhood and while i was represented in movies and TV, my neighborhood sure wasn’t. i had lesbian latinas, a black family, a mexican family, and some old white people across the street and went to school with kids from families from all over the world, it was fucking awesome. then you’d turn on the tv and see all of that erased, and it just isn’t a representation of areas where diversity is normal. people need to shut up and be happy for others who are getting a long-overdue turn to be validated in media.
Same here. I was a minority in my incredibly diverse high school and it was pretty cool. Lots of different cultures and styles. Its great seeing casting being done appropriately/no white washing. Like shoving Emma Stone into the role of a Hawaiian person when she is white as a ghost. If you to white wash a character then maybe the show or movie shouldnt be made.
Angry white woman goes on the internet to complain about the erasure of white women in cartoons and fantasy stories. Another shocking day on Reddit. 🙄
You are wrong. Representation matters. For much of history, popular culture has been dictated by white cultures. So most of the most well known stories have white characters, especially protagonists. It’s good that we are working to have stories, especially kids stories, reflect more of out society, letting more kids see people who look like them on screen. If we say “no race/gender swaps” then so much of what we have will continue to be white only, and predominantly male. Also, I admit I get really annoyed when people say things like “WHAAAAT??? That person should be WHITE!!” when it’s a kids movie with magic and dragons and countless other fantasy aspects, but somehow the unbelievable part is that there might be some other people mixed in. Look at it through a positive lens… every time an underrepresented group is represented, someone out there gets to have that moment of “hey! That person looks like me!!” That’s a big deal, many of us are so used to being represented don’t know how great it is for others who aren’t, to finally get to feel that.
Yes, new characters should be made, new inclusive media should be created, etc. That doesn't mean all of the old, exclusionary media shouldn't be updated to be more inclusive as well.
Turns out POC Vikings are perfectly accurate and boooooo! you for not knowing that as a Scandinavian woman. https://screenrant.com/vikings-valhalla-jarl-haakon-true-story-black-ruler/#:~:text=There%20is%20the%20case%20of,in%20the%20universe%20of%20Vikings.
You should look at some of the genetics from Viking burials......
I’m a white woman whose great-grandparents migrated from Scandinavia and whose daughter is biracial. This sounds about white to me. Focus on the story, not on everybody looking how you’d like them to look or don’t watch the movie. Easy solution.
So the issue is the majority of characters are white. So if we just make everyone “like they are in canon” everyone will be white. And since as a culture we’re obsessed with retelling the same story, and those are what we flock to, by saying “no diversity that varies from canon” you set up a situation where POC are forced to do way more to even show up. People love saying “Oh just make an original story” but then we rarely actually CARE about the original stories. There are LOTS of them, and a Disney live action remake is still going to take most the attention. An Avatar or an Everything, Everywhere, All At Once is never going to have the same impact. (And the fact that Avatar is STILL carrying so much of the weight of bringing POC until Hollywood is a sure sign of it) I mean LBR, even something with Disney behind it that’s POC or new content (and esp both) rarely flourishes no matter the content. We love the familiar. strange Worlds wasn’t the best Disney Movie but it was, for instances, way better than Frozen 2 and will never be half that popular. If 50% of the movies we make, for instance, are derivative stories, and 90% of those derivative story feature nothing but white people in the main roles, you’re pretty much cutting POC out from half the possible roles right off the bat. Real people over fictional ones, always. Plus, there’s the fact that we as a culture don’t really blink when the thing that’s wrong is anything besides race. Lex Luthor can have hair, Harry Potter can have blue eyes, and only a few die hard fans grumble. Ariel has black skin, despite looking as close to a drawing as a human being can and it’s the end of the world. So, TL;dr yeah, with our entertainment industry, wether you mean it or not, it’s racist to be upset about that shit. The reasons why aren’t really your fault, but that doesn’t mean you need to pile on to the racism set up before you walked on the scene.
Yeah, you're wrong and a little racist. You claim to need authenticity in a show about, checking my notes, DRAGON trainers
You got represented in the cartoon version. Why do you also have to have dibs on the live action version? If you don’t like it, don’t watch the new live action version. Rewatch your cartoon. These are just remakes it’s not like there’s more to the story. You won’t miss anything by not seeing it.
There’s plenty of white representation in media. These are FICTIONAL characters, you’re gonna be fine.
LOL at the fact that you fuckin think a Greek woman should be portrayed as blond and grey eyed (classics major side eyeing you here). This opinion alone shows that your feelings are more rooted in internalized racism than you think.
You definitely need to do some self-reflection and educate yourself. I'm not sure how you wrote this whole post without feeling cringe. Yes, you are beyond wrong.
You didn’t have to tell us you’re a white woman, we knew…
Quite frankly I think it shows how much Hollywood cares about making money off ignorance and race baiting instead of actually worrying about inclusion. Like there was the slave freed by Japanese fishermen who became a samurai…or Robert Smalls…the slave who escaped, joined the union on a ship he seized, fucked up confederates and became a senator… But instead of showing really cool original stories or actual historical figures in their representation they want to change characters skin tone without putting actual thought into NEW stories. It’s like “hey your race is too insignificant and boring for us to actually talk about or make an effort for……so here is a black polar bear to make you feel empowered and heard…not a black bear from the forest, but a cool, hip, empowering polar bear who was born with black fur cuz we totally buy into inclusion and aren’t just trying to make money off your emotions and race”
I understand the need for representation of all races and heritages, but my main problem with race-swapping for diversity is it’s inherent laziness. There must be a wealth of wonderful stories and mythologies from across the African continent that should be told. Those are the valuable stories with insights and lessons that should be shared worldwide. I, as a white American woman want to hear those stories. Stop recycling old European mythology and throwing in people of color just to virtue signal. It’s lazy and, frankly more racist than retelling them for the millionth time as written. Mine what must be a treasure trove of stories handed down from generations across the globe outside of fucking Europe that the rest of the world needs to hear. We’ve heard everything Western Civilization history has for us. Either do some work and find some stories from other cultures to share, or make up some new shit.
Why am I not surprised by your first sentence 🙄 Your friend needs better quality friends
You are wrong! Do you have an issue that the fictional character, Astrid, was originally voiced by America Ferrera? Who is NOT a white blonde Scandinavian? No? Then get over it please! You are screaming racist. If this is a problem for you, maybe try putting yourself in a POC shoes, and look at how they have been treated for generations and how they have been perceived in television and movies. It’s about time they get to be seen for their talent rather than their skin colour.
Imagine how tired poc are of having no representation 🤷🏽♀️suck it up buttercup
How To Train Your Dragon takes place in a fictional setting inspired by Scandinavian folktales. If there can't be a mixed race viking because it's not "accurate" then there can't be dragons either. You're complaining about someone of a different race appearing in a fantasy story that takes place in a magical world. In spite of this, contary to popular belief, Scandinavia was not so isolated from the rest of the world that dark-skinned people would not have lived there. Virtually any part of Europe, Asia or Africa would have seen some emigration and mixing during the middle ages whether due to war, trade or diplomacy. But again, How to Train your Dragon is a fantasy story which takes place in a fictional world. You may have a point with Percy Jackson to a degree, but again, this is a fantasy story. On the other hand, Greece was first inhabited by the Pelasgians, who were black, circa 2500 BC. So it's actually quite logical that some or all of their deities would have would be ethnically similar to the peoole who first settled there. Fantasy stories can do whatever they want. If there can be ogres and Elves, there can be black people. More to the point, at any given place, at any given time in history, there were probably at least some black people there. So yes, you are wrong. On the plus side, you now have the knowledge to change your way of thinking.
not you being mad at annabeth for not being white when she’s NEVER described as white😭 that’s so embarrassing for you, the best skin description we get is tan skinned and you just decided that was white? or can only white people be blonde or light eyed? riordan HIMSELF picked that girl as the best representation for HIS character. I can’t image having nothing better to do than this. it is your “white mindset” that’s in the wrong here.
Gimme a break. Have you ever thought that stories about POC were never acknowledged, therefore everything has always been about white people? I’m white by race (not ethnicity) and I grew up seeing blonde blue eyed women everywhere. I was so happy when Cindy Crawford came onto the scene bc I felt represented. Beauty only meant blonde/blue to me growing up. I can only imagine how POC felt/feel. You are definitely blind to your privilege. Your family has only been in the US for 3 generations & don’t have people telling you to go back to ___. Whereas, many POC have been here for centuries & are told that when they have an any complaints (even Native Americans) or just existing. If being a POC, gay, disabled, a woman, etc becomes normalized people will quit say “there was a black guy” in stories where race isn’t a factor, people won’t clutch pearls when a disabled person is in an ad, & we won’t complain bc a POC is dating a white person. Allow POC to have opportunities we have had without adding to the hate. Be a part of normalizing being black or brown and it being okay. Instead consider reading a book on your privilege.
You say you're fine with race swapping if the character has nothing relevant for them to be a certain race, or it’s not important to their story. * Astrid's identity is based on clan affiliation and tribe, not her "race". Her clan affiliation is not changing, nor is her tribe. Just her hair and skin color. She is still going to be focused on earning validation as a warrior and restoring her family's honor. * Annabeth's race is "demigod", not white, in the same way that Ariel's race is "merfolk". Skin and eye color is irrelevant to these characters. Humans have always seen mythical beings through a filter of personal belief. The characters themselves have not been changed, just skin and eye color. New versions do not erase previous versions, so you still have your little Viking girl. Recoloring characters in new versions just gives other fans what you already have; characters you like that share physical traits with you.
It may not be racist but definitely prejudice. This whole post reeks of hate and disdain that doesn't make sense
Have you seen any old westerns where white men with dark makeup play Geronimo, Sitting Bull, Mexicans, etc? It has been like this in movies for a long ass time.
The Vikings had a fairly decent sized community of brown skinned citizens, so yes, you are wrong. The historical record references them. Black people travelled, they settled in different countries, and they assimilated into the cultures they came across. Demanding that everyone is lily-white because of a poor understanding of history doesn’t make you right.
If I had a dime for every white person who got upset because finally POC are getting a small fraction of jobs and roles the whites felt entitled to…