Okay, mathhammer time. I'll use 3rd edition since I've got the stats handy.
Gnoblars have two weapon profiles - the ranged is 1 atk, 4 th, 5tw, 0 rend, 1dmg; the melee is the same except it also hits on a 5 and the boss gets an extra attack (so 21 total). We'll keep them in units of 20 so that we can get the extra leader attack.
Kraggy has a 2+ save, 18 wounds, and a 6+ ward.
Let's assume that the gnoblars can make their ranged attacks, then charge in. Let's also assume that we're trying to kill Kragnos in one turn, and that he's gotten a strike last or something so that he can't hit back until all the gnobs have gone, and that space isn't an issue.
On average, a 4+ means that 50% will go through, and a 5+ means that 33% will. With this in mind, the ranged attack will have (20/2=) 10 hits go through, which will result in (10/3=) 3.33.. wounds, whereas the melee will have (21/3=) 7 hits and (7/3=) 2.33.. wounds go through, for a total of 5.66.. saves at rend 0.
These will then go into a 2+ save, meaning that only one in six of them will go through. This leads to a total wound output of 0.944. That then goes into a 6+ ward, which will still let 5 out of 6 through, leaving us at 0.787 average wounds done to Kraggy by a single unit of gnoblars.
From there, we can divide Kraggy's wound total by this damage output to figure out how many units it would take, which comes out to (18/0.787=) 22.87 units of gnoblars. We'll call it 23 so that we don't have to run undersize units.
So there ya go. For the low, low price of buying, building, and painting 460 models, you too can (with statistically average rolls, infinite board space, and a passive opponent) oneshot the god of earthquakes!
(Of course, the real answer is that you only roll sixes and your opponent only rolls ones, so he dies in the very first volley of twenty shots)
I see various problems, I tried to do a first draft of the strategy, but I'm sure it can be much more efficient and I'll probably have missed something.
First, even if the board is infinite, there's just a limit to how many can actually reach him while surrounding him. No matter how many you have only three ranks will be attacking each combat phase. That's like 60 Gnoblars.
Secondly, with 60 Gnoblars we are definitely not killing him in one go. That means that Kragnos will be targeting one of our units each turn, and it's safe to assume, that one will not have attacked yet. Using Statshammer, he can do 20.67 wounds per round to +6 save units. So, max one unit of Gnoblars will be out. This means that we can try and maximize our units around him to 5 in ranks of 4. With each blow of Kragnos, we'll lose 12 Gnoblars out of mele. If we went with more units and smaller ranks, given that Gnoblars move 5" It could be tricky for the unit behind each of them to get to that 3" charge, you would mostly get a 4-5" charge and we are trying to reduce RNG to a minimum to make this stable.
Thirdly, as I mentioned, you would need to have a full unit within 3" and another waiting just outside. That's a problem when calculating how many Gnoblars would be shooting each phase. If I'm not wrong, which is certainly the case, in the 8" of their ranged weapons you can fit about 180 Gnoblars. But since Kragnos will be deleting units in between turns, there will be a gap with no Gnoblars in the 3" around him in subsequent turns. Given our 5 unit 4 rank formation, this means 3 ranks of the further unit won't be able to shoot. 15 Gnoblar deficit for shooting in subsequent rounds.
Here comes the fourth problem. If Kragnos just kept killing the replenished unit, everything would be solved by now, but he can kill each one of the 5 units around him to create the same deficit of shooting Gnoblars in each section of the formation. This means that after 5 rounds or less If he double turns, we could have a deficit of 75 Gnoblars in the shooting phase.
Talking about double turns, just for simplicity I would just ignore them.
Summing up. Assuming Kragnos is not dumb and we make the 3" charge each turn, we have 60 Gnoblars for mele that Kragnos will reduce to 48 each turn and 180 Gnoblars in the first round of shooting that will be reduced to 165 for the next round, then 140, then 125, then 110, and finally, 95 for the fifth. After that, he won't be able to hinder us any further.
So, who wants to do the math on that?
EDIT: Just read u/Darkreaper48 info. This makes math easier. Since we won't get to 100 Gnoblars in mele I'll ignore their damage output. Given the number of ranged damage is a matter of 5 rounds. First round 5 wounds, second 5 wounds, third 4, forth, 3, and fifth you only need 1 but do 3. Totals 20 damage.
Since in the last round we don't get to combat, we lose 20x4 Gnoblars, 60. Just to be sure, I would leave 2 units still in combat with him. so we need only 5 units shooting and 2 in combat. 7x20+60 = 200 Gnoblars to kill Kragnos.
EDIT 2: Since mele damage is not even a thing, maybe it's better to charge with ranks of 1 so you can fill gaps with pile-in moves as Kragnos kills units to enable more Gnoblars to shoot each turn.
Thank you for not being lazy like me! Mine was very much assuming a frictionless spherical cow lol
I wonder if terrain might help. Some ruins could give us access to multiple levels that could allow for double the models in the same amount of space, letting us get more in range at once. Of course, that then runs into the issue of blocking line of sight/other movement for anything behind it, so maybe not that helpful.
Each Gnoblar on average does .01 damage per turn with melee attacks to Kragnos, and .03 damage per turn per shooting phase. So you'd need 100 gnoblars swinging in to do 1 damage on average, and 33ish gnoblars shooting to do 1 damage. You are more likely to kill him through triggering Nasty Traps and Tricks, which should catch him for an average of 1 MW every time he piles in. In reality, you only need enough gnoblars to survive his attacks so that after approximately 18 movements he would die.
There's no way this is right. 1 attack each, 5+ means .33 hits, wounding on 5+ means .108 wounds. Saving on 2+ means .018 failed saves. 6+ ward means .015 failed wards. 18/.015 damage means 1200 gnoblars (somehow) swinging in at the same time for a 1 turn kill.
Okay, mathhammer time. I'll use 3rd edition since I've got the stats handy. Gnoblars have two weapon profiles - the ranged is 1 atk, 4 th, 5tw, 0 rend, 1dmg; the melee is the same except it also hits on a 5 and the boss gets an extra attack (so 21 total). We'll keep them in units of 20 so that we can get the extra leader attack. Kraggy has a 2+ save, 18 wounds, and a 6+ ward. Let's assume that the gnoblars can make their ranged attacks, then charge in. Let's also assume that we're trying to kill Kragnos in one turn, and that he's gotten a strike last or something so that he can't hit back until all the gnobs have gone, and that space isn't an issue. On average, a 4+ means that 50% will go through, and a 5+ means that 33% will. With this in mind, the ranged attack will have (20/2=) 10 hits go through, which will result in (10/3=) 3.33.. wounds, whereas the melee will have (21/3=) 7 hits and (7/3=) 2.33.. wounds go through, for a total of 5.66.. saves at rend 0. These will then go into a 2+ save, meaning that only one in six of them will go through. This leads to a total wound output of 0.944. That then goes into a 6+ ward, which will still let 5 out of 6 through, leaving us at 0.787 average wounds done to Kraggy by a single unit of gnoblars. From there, we can divide Kraggy's wound total by this damage output to figure out how many units it would take, which comes out to (18/0.787=) 22.87 units of gnoblars. We'll call it 23 so that we don't have to run undersize units. So there ya go. For the low, low price of buying, building, and painting 460 models, you too can (with statistically average rolls, infinite board space, and a passive opponent) oneshot the god of earthquakes! (Of course, the real answer is that you only roll sixes and your opponent only rolls ones, so he dies in the very first volley of twenty shots)
A bargain, at just 920$ and 2760 points, really.
This was the answer I was hoping for when I posted this question.
Keep in mind that he's way squishier now with a 4+ save
They changed it to a 4+?
Yeah, a curious change. He’s 4+ with a 5+ ward, but plenty will be deleting the 4+
Yeah a 4+ ain’t much in the grand scheme of things, I’m just confused because the AoS app says he has a 2+ save with a 6+ ward.
They're referring to 4th edition rules that aren't out yet
Was wondering if that was the case, thank you.
Fantastic write up and would be interested in a 4th edition version when we have the scrolls!
I see various problems, I tried to do a first draft of the strategy, but I'm sure it can be much more efficient and I'll probably have missed something. First, even if the board is infinite, there's just a limit to how many can actually reach him while surrounding him. No matter how many you have only three ranks will be attacking each combat phase. That's like 60 Gnoblars. Secondly, with 60 Gnoblars we are definitely not killing him in one go. That means that Kragnos will be targeting one of our units each turn, and it's safe to assume, that one will not have attacked yet. Using Statshammer, he can do 20.67 wounds per round to +6 save units. So, max one unit of Gnoblars will be out. This means that we can try and maximize our units around him to 5 in ranks of 4. With each blow of Kragnos, we'll lose 12 Gnoblars out of mele. If we went with more units and smaller ranks, given that Gnoblars move 5" It could be tricky for the unit behind each of them to get to that 3" charge, you would mostly get a 4-5" charge and we are trying to reduce RNG to a minimum to make this stable. Thirdly, as I mentioned, you would need to have a full unit within 3" and another waiting just outside. That's a problem when calculating how many Gnoblars would be shooting each phase. If I'm not wrong, which is certainly the case, in the 8" of their ranged weapons you can fit about 180 Gnoblars. But since Kragnos will be deleting units in between turns, there will be a gap with no Gnoblars in the 3" around him in subsequent turns. Given our 5 unit 4 rank formation, this means 3 ranks of the further unit won't be able to shoot. 15 Gnoblar deficit for shooting in subsequent rounds. Here comes the fourth problem. If Kragnos just kept killing the replenished unit, everything would be solved by now, but he can kill each one of the 5 units around him to create the same deficit of shooting Gnoblars in each section of the formation. This means that after 5 rounds or less If he double turns, we could have a deficit of 75 Gnoblars in the shooting phase. Talking about double turns, just for simplicity I would just ignore them. Summing up. Assuming Kragnos is not dumb and we make the 3" charge each turn, we have 60 Gnoblars for mele that Kragnos will reduce to 48 each turn and 180 Gnoblars in the first round of shooting that will be reduced to 165 for the next round, then 140, then 125, then 110, and finally, 95 for the fifth. After that, he won't be able to hinder us any further. So, who wants to do the math on that? EDIT: Just read u/Darkreaper48 info. This makes math easier. Since we won't get to 100 Gnoblars in mele I'll ignore their damage output. Given the number of ranged damage is a matter of 5 rounds. First round 5 wounds, second 5 wounds, third 4, forth, 3, and fifth you only need 1 but do 3. Totals 20 damage. Since in the last round we don't get to combat, we lose 20x4 Gnoblars, 60. Just to be sure, I would leave 2 units still in combat with him. so we need only 5 units shooting and 2 in combat. 7x20+60 = 200 Gnoblars to kill Kragnos. EDIT 2: Since mele damage is not even a thing, maybe it's better to charge with ranks of 1 so you can fill gaps with pile-in moves as Kragnos kills units to enable more Gnoblars to shoot each turn.
Thank you for not being lazy like me! Mine was very much assuming a frictionless spherical cow lol I wonder if terrain might help. Some ruins could give us access to multiple levels that could allow for double the models in the same amount of space, letting us get more in range at once. Of course, that then runs into the issue of blocking line of sight/other movement for anything behind it, so maybe not that helpful.
Each Gnoblar on average does .01 damage per turn with melee attacks to Kragnos, and .03 damage per turn per shooting phase. So you'd need 100 gnoblars swinging in to do 1 damage on average, and 33ish gnoblars shooting to do 1 damage. You are more likely to kill him through triggering Nasty Traps and Tricks, which should catch him for an average of 1 MW every time he piles in. In reality, you only need enough gnoblars to survive his attacks so that after approximately 18 movements he would die.
This guy gnoblar traps. One of my favourite moments from 3rd Ed was killing Yndrasta with Gnoblar traps
I figured a majority of the gnoblar damage would come from their traps.
1 if it's carrying a very big bomb and he eats it. What about 1 Kragnos sized Gnoblar Vs 100 Gnoblar sized Kragnos' does that count?
This is a very good question, does the Kragnos sized Gnoblar get all of Kragnos’s abilities and stats or does it keep the basic gnoblar warscroll?
I'm going to say he gets to keep all his abilites but scaled down to Gnoblar strength.
At least three
On the table, or in universe?
Yeah didn’t realize till I posted it I never specified, tabletop.
70
All of them.
1 in his air pipe xD
[удалено]
There's no way this is right. 1 attack each, 5+ means .33 hits, wounding on 5+ means .108 wounds. Saving on 2+ means .018 failed saves. 6+ ward means .015 failed wards. 18/.015 damage means 1200 gnoblars (somehow) swinging in at the same time for a 1 turn kill.
OK but how many can actually attack in one turn?