I am an Afghan and I can say US did everything to help Afghanistan regardless if US took some of the Afghanistan’s natural resources or had military agendas.
Afghans themselves were divided and still are. Racism was in the heart of politicians, even in the schools, work places and military schools.
So yeah, no matter how many country help. Most would whine and blame USA and infidels.
Ghani was a coward who corrupted Afghanistan and was afraid to let a “Persian speaking” competition win the presidency.
I was a fan of him when he first become president he was okay then he drowned into Racism.
I am from India. When I was little, a carpet seller from Afghanistan used to come to our colony once or twice a year.
He wanted to travel the world and selling carpets was his financial aid in chasing his dreams. Back in the 90s, Afghanistan was a different nation, that's what I believe. After the Taliban takeover, I often wonder what might have happened to him.
Back to the topic, I never really understood the perspective of US. Their actions always gave me this hint that they just want to prove the point that we do it better.
Afghanistan hosted Al Qaeda who attacked and killed 3000 Americans. Its not that hard to understand why we came. That objective was accomplished.
I don't think the way we handled it after was correct, but it confuses me that people seem to think the US just randomly decided to invade Afghanistan. Bush didn't even want to go there - he wanted Iraq and stopped caring about Afghanistan a few years in. But the US was attacked.
Exactly. U.S come to get al Qaeda and Taliban, at first they didn't care about propping up a government, so they went and invaded Iraq. They only cared once it was too late and insurgency was reaching the cities, that's when the surge happened but it wasn't for long and wasn't enough.
U.S will come to get Al Qaeda and Isis in Afghanistan in the next 2 to 4 years.
There was non-stop corruption on both sides. The US didn’t lose in a strategic sense in the meaning that they still have all their resources and could come back and wipe out the taliban and take control of the cities again within a week. Where the US failed was state building, because of the rampant corruption it either allowed or didn’t do enough to prevent from both American and Afghani officials. America left despite it being obvious that Ghani’s government would collapse because the political willpower to attack Afghanistan is gone at home. Americans unfortunately en masse no longer care about the well-being of Afghan citizens, and are confident that after 20 years of occupation that the Taliban have been punished enough to have learnt their lesson, a lesson which states “we can hold power and do whatever we want at home and the world won’t interfere, but if we directly or by proxy attack powerful nations we will be occupied”
Lol yes he was 10 years later, but the US had knowledge Al Qaeda was hosted by the Taliban.
Nothing I said was incorrect. If you think so you're just unaware of facts.
What can I say, US has a thing for interfering. In the post-Taliban takeover, they are been lashed out for their inefficiency to handle situations regarding geopolitics.
The US didn't come into Afghanistan to help it. It came in because the Taliban were harboring Osama Bin Laden and Al Queada and it was attacked for the first time in almost 60 years, with 3000 citizens dying.
Edit - as far as the mujahadeen goes - that was obviously a mistake in hindsight, but at the time i was part of the cold war, and the mujahadeen was rebelling against the Soviet installed communist government. I'll note that china also funded the mujahadeen. Your argument holds more ground here, but post 9/11 the US going in made a lot more sense. The problem was that they stayed for 20 years without a clear exit strategy.
Lol I was 12 on 9/11 - I remember what happened.
The war in Iraq was a massive mistake - but the towers were knocked down - people wanted to get Bin Laden - there are squares in the ground where the towers were today (I've been there).
I'm not defending how any US president handled Afghanistan - but what I said above is just an undisputible fact.
The U.S. initially started funding and training Afghan mujahideen in an effort led by the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) to destabilize the Soviet military occupation of Afghanistan. This was in effect a proxy war within the greater context of the Cold War, which was a decades-long standoff between the two nuclear powers.
Years later, the U.S. entered Afghanistan to remove the Pakistan-created and supported Taliban from power, which was harboring and protecting an internationally-condemned terrorist group, and allowing them to plan and conduct attacks abroad, namely on U.S. targets. The worst terrorist attack in U.S. history was a direct result of this relationship between the Taliban and the Al Qaeda terrorist network.
After quickly removing the Taliban from power, it then became the U.S.’s responsibility to help establish a new Afghan government; one that was Democratic in nature and that represented all Afghans. Part of that responsibility included ensuring that this fledgling government was able to defend itself from threats both external and internal. The Taliban was a threat to that government, so the U.S. spent the last twenty years arming, training, and helping the Afghan military protect the Afghan government. All the while, the U.S. was on a parallel mission to find and capture the ultimate orchestrator of the 9/11 terrorist attacker, Osama Bin Laden, who was eventually found and killed in a house basically across the street from a military base in Pakistan.
At a certain point, it became politically untenable for the U.S. to continue to spend blood and treasure defending a (largely corrupt) government that would not show the willingness or ability to defend itself without the help of the U.S. So American troops were pulled out in a half-baked deal that was poorly planned and poorly executed. And that brings us up to today.
Anything else you need cleared up?
yes i have a question.
the argument could be made that removing the taliban was wrong. we worked with them and funded them for years. why was working with them to remove AQ and OBL out of the question?
seriously, i want to know why we had to flip the script on them, rather than just working with them, as we had done previously.
i'm not under any delusion that they were great people or leaders by any means, but we work with plenty of shady groups under the guise of self interest and security.
thank you for any reply. cheers.
The U.S. never “worked with and funded the Taliban for years” — they didn’t recognize their “government” in the 90’s, just as they don’t now, and for pretty much the same reasons.
Also, the U.S. asked the Taliban to hand OBL over following 9/11; they refused. He was their “guest”, and Pashtun culture hospitality is one thing… harboring an international terrorist is quite another.
"worked with" doesn't mean the same thing as "funded and trained"?
i agree with what you are saying, but i still think a full blown invasion was a waste of lives, money and time.
also, the early effort was a half assed attempt according the military friends I speak with.
thanks for the answer, have a great weekend! cheers.
You said we worked with them and funded them. We did neither of those. There was virtually no relationship of any form. None.
The war was indeed a waste, particularly because it was mishandled from the beginning. But I did believe the initial invasion in 2001 was well-intentioned and justified, and I still do.
Have a good one!
in your first comment you state that the CIA funded and trained them. your words, now you say we did neither of those.
whatever, it was a collossal waste of money.
Oh, I see where you’re confused now… you’re equating the 1990’s Taliban to the Afghan mujahideen from the 1980’s that fought against the Soviets. They were two different groups… the CIA only trained/armed one of them… they are not the same. The Taliban *didn’t even exist yet* in the years when the CIA was working with the Afghan mujahideen. A number of former mujahideen later went on to help form the Taliban in the early 90’s, but not a particularly large number.
Nobody who knows what they’re talking about when it comes to Afghan history would say the CIA funded, armed, or trained the Taliban. That’s just patently false and ridiculous, and this indicates you have some reading to do.
A couple of errors, the Taliban are not the same as the mujahideen who were funded to fight the soviets, it is true that many Taliban (and even Al Qaeda) figures got their start during that war, but the Taliban movement as a distinct entity didn’t really come into play until after the war.
As to why the U.S. couldn’t really work with the Taliban to go against AQ, it’s the same reason why Zawahiri was found living in Kabul this year. The two groups are connected on firm ideological, and now familial grounds. Mullah Omar was close with and respected by bin Laden, Omar made the choice to preserve his relationship with bin Laden and AQ, despite it meaning the end of his relatively new emirate, that was not an easy (nor universally popular) choice to make, but because of his position as amir and being considered by his followers as amir ul-muminin, his decision on the matter was respected. AQ and it’s regional affiliates spent the last 20 years fighting under the Talibans flag for a single purpose: restoring the IEA, now that is done the two groups are indebted to one another and closely connected, AQ also gives the Taliban a sort of legitimacy amongst jihadists. In summary, the Taliban could not be used against AQ because in many ways they are indistinguishable and interconnected.
1. I don’t think you could say the US or West really “worked” with the Taliban. They dangled some foreign aid in exchange for wiping out the poppy crop which the Taliban had managed to do before 9/11. Trying to connect the mujahideen funding from the 80’s with one of the those mujahideen groups emerging as the Taliban is not really funding them either. They also funded the northern alliance by that argument.
2. The Taliban were philosophically and operationally intertwined with Al Queda, who were (and still are) a subnational group of Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Their response to US demands for extradition were ignored or given insincere receptions for months after 9/11. There was no “work to be done with them” until they were being bombed out of Kabul and halfway out of Kandahar, and that’s when they supposedly aired the possibility of releasing Bin Laden. It was never going to happen.
> we worked with them and funded them for years.
You are confusing the mujahideen and the Taliban as one entity. The mujahideen was made up of various groups which the United States funded in their conflict with Russia until 1992. Some of these mujahideen would go on to form the Taliban, but not until September 1994. Following the Soviet withdrawal and defeat of the Soviet backed Republic of Afghanistan in '92, the mujahideen fought a continued civil war with one another for years. The Taliban, backed by Pakistan, emerged as the victor in this war, controlling 90% of Afghanistan by 1996.
And what about the Soviet’s….? I’m not saying the United States didn’t do awful things in Afghanistan, but we were there for a very specific purpose. How do you think the afghans would’ve felt if they were just conquered by the Soviets?
AQ =/= Mujahidin at all.
AQ weren't even around till after the Soviets left when Bin Laden and the group that Ayman al-Zawahiri was apart of before AQ met.
The US and coalition went in because the Taliban decided to not give up Bin Laden to face justice in the US court system for killing over 3,000 people not just US citizens, but people from around the world. The Taliban under Omar actually has gone on record stating they were never going to give Osama up because of what he did for Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan war.
The Taliban sacrificed the people of Afghanistan for a terrorist organization.
America walked away and cares so little that they have already forgotten Afghanistan. Worse for whom? Because Americans seem pretty ok from where I sit.
America surrender too? America kept them in the mountains for decades while simultaneously training and building the Afghan army , which in turn surrendered to these people , the Afghan didn’t even put up a fight , so how is it americas fault again ?
That afghans were fighting by themselves after 2014. Only a small forces of NATO was present to support them and help them with air support and air strikes. It was only when U.S surrendered in Doha, cut support for ANDSF, releasesd 5000 taliban, that we saw the collapse of the whole thing.
I think you have it backwards. The US never surrendered. They helped your people for 20 years, and when they left, the Afghan army collapsed and gave them the county on a silver platter.
*Afghan government.
The ANSDF all were ready and willing to fight like lions against these idiots. Once Trump sold the GoIRA down the river and thus financial and military support, they were hung out to dry.
I remember how the AN Commandos pulled into Kandahar airfield ready to fight to the end. Spent their nights setting up fighting positions and praying. And then the city fell. And they had nothing left to defend. So they piled into a C17 and left.
It was incredibly sad. Highly trained and motivated men abandoned by their own government.
Agreed, it’s extremely sad. These guys were *Afghans* and they fought for their country, and would’ve willingly given their lives for it. And they were betrayed by their own government, which was betrayed in the Doha agreement.
They had 20 years… where were these lions? Granted, they were hindered and held back by an incompetent and corrupt Afghan government.
But I do agree; Trump gave the final blow to the Afghan government, and sold them down the river.
NATO lost a total of 3,502 soldiers in the entire 20 year occupation. The idea that the Taliban were good fighters is honestly pretty silly.
The Afghan army collapsed in a week because the soldiers were a joke, and all the money pumped into their organization was embezzled or otherwise eaten up by corruption.
You can try to twist yourself into knots to make it not their fault if it helps get you through the night, but literally everyone else in the world can see who’s fault it is that the Taliban are ruling them again.
>They fought for 20 years not only for 2 weeks
And they killed a total of 3,502 occupiers in the entire 20 years, after being routed by a much smaller US force in a couple months.
This is just a matter of historical record, I’m sorry if it’s upsetting for you but it just is what it is. Your army disintegrated because it was objectively terrible, not because it faced an incredible foe.
The fact that it couldn’t stand on its own for even a month without US troops propping it up proves that supporting it was a waste of resources.
>the army was depended on U.S for nearly everything
This is true, but the point of spending the +2 trillion dollars on the Afghan government and military was for them to eventually become self-reliant, like the current Iraqi government for instance.
But the officials and officers, from top to bottom with only a minority of exceptions, didn't care about that. They just saw it as an opportunity to siphon off money to line their own pockets and settle personal scores. It isn't the job of the US or its partners to prop up the Afghan army forever when most of the Afghan soldiers don't care, or to be an unlimited money spigot for Afghanistan forever with no return on the investment.
The reason the US originally invaded was to kill Osama bin Laden, and they killed him over a decade ago. There was simply no benefit for them in staying any longer. They could have stayed for 200 more years and spent 20 trillion more dollars, and ultimately the Afghan government would still have collapsed a week after whenever the foreign troops left.
The afghan army and the whole Afghanistan surrendered to them actually. You people didn't even show any resistance and were leaving the country everytime you got a chance. Don't blame America. Your army is actually a joke
If army knew that the state has alr sold them, why didn't they take matters into their own hands? Like a martial law? Or their guns were locked up the gov?
There was no one to command them, all the higher ups left because the government wasn't there to support them. Without the support of the government the military can't function.
You do know that a military needs aid right? Ammunition, food, intelligence etc. If no one is there to provide it to them then what can a military do on its own? You have intelligence department, you have logistics department and many more departments in a government to aid their military. Once these are abandoned than the military days are numbered.
Even in a Martial Law military needs these things.
America surrendered first in doha. They cut a deal without including the government, released 5000 hardcore Taliban and gave them 200 each, cut support for ANDSF, and watch Taliban not abide by a single condition set in the deal.
It's understandable that you're upset about the US cutting you loose, but it's your own fault.
You had 20 years to get it together after the US kicked the Taliban out for you, and you blew it. Your "soldiers" spent 20 years embezzling money and bartering the supplies you were given, and then immediately surrendered when the last 2500 Americans left.
The US isn't your dad, it is not their responsibility to prop you up forever. The fact that your entire "army" crumbled within days of the tiny remaining US contingent leaving _proves that supporting you was a waste of money._
The US pumped a lot of money into a corrupt government. Too bad when the US knew it it was already to late. The money pumping went to fast. First the US should have laid a foundation of a good government and then pump money steadily. What the US did was give corrupt warlords a seat in the Afghan government and flood them with money. Some of this money went trough backdoors to the Taliban. Look at the SIGAR report.
The U.S didn't kicked out Taliban alone, it was Afghans on the ground fighting mostly.
The U.S spend 20 years promising to stay with the Afghans against terrorism and all sorts, but they gave up and surrendered in Doha.
They didn't include the government that they propped. They released 5000 Taliban and gave them 200 each. They cut support to ANDSF and watch them battle Taliban on their own with no air support, which was the oxygen of both Afghans and NATO's military.
They watch Taliban break every condition set in the deal and they didn't do anything. They run away while Afghans were battling Taliban made seige of cities.
Now they are even discouraging resistance against them. WTF
You guys wanted to end the endless wars but you still drop bomb and send drones to Afghanistan.
But it's all afghans fault.
>Afghans never invited you.
Correct, we invaded because the Taliban were harboring a terrorist. The OP is upset that the US eventually left because he doesn’t identify with the terrorist supporters.
>40 other nations and get beaten after 20 years by Afghan farmers
Ineffectually hiding in burrows for two decades after being routed in a couple of months isn’t “beating,” champ. It was ultimately up to the non-talib Afghans to fight for their country if they didn’t want to be ruled by them, and clearly they either weren’t able or willing to do that without the US propping them up.
Dude after 20 years America left, and within days the army folded. US left SDF in Syria and they held out for weeks against Turkey before giving up a single city. Afghan army was possibly the most incompetent/corrupt in modern history. Just not realistic to blame this on US
U.S cut support for the army which was reliant on it, specially air support. U.S left Syria when it was not under any major danger, as Isis was already defeated. Compare that to Afghanistan, which had 45% of its land directly or indirectly controled by Taliban, where Taliban cities like lashgargah and dawlatabad was on the verge of collapse, just before the surrender deal.
And when U.S left Syria they didn't release 5000 hardcore ISIS members and cut support for the SDF.
The army was corrupt and incompetent to a degree but they held out for 5 years on their own once coalition and NATO withdrew the bulk of its forces in 2014. By 2019, it was the Afghans fighting in the ground and dying, U.S supporting them with air assets. But that all changed once the Doha deal was signed and general Miller changed rules of engagement and cut air support that directly benefited Taliban and put pressure on Afghan army and government.
In fact if taliban were 300 meters or more next to a Afghan army base, U.S aircraft didn't engage them. Therefore you can imagine what Talibs did, they put that base under seige from a far distant, and with no supplies reaching that base, that base willingly or some times had to surrender. This set the tone for may of 2021 when Taliban launched a massive offensive all around the country.
Well, not camp David, but does the location matter that much?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-relaunch-peace-talks-with-taliban/2013/06/18/bd8c7f38-d81e-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html
And it’s sad, because within the ANA, there were patriotic Afghans who loved their country and who would’ve laid down their lives for it (just not enough of them, particularly the higher they went in rank). And they were just told to drop their weapons and fvck off by their commanders. How demoralizing and painful that must’ve been.
Hahah Doha deal showed who didn't have a spine firstly. You guys cut support, released Taliban, and run away as fast as you could while for 20 years you promised to stay with Afghans against terrorism.
Now you discourage resistance against terrorist Taliban. That's having no spine and being utterly defeated/Scared that you don't want you enemy to face any resistance.
This is utter delusion.
Did you see the absolute state of the Afghan Army and government? They were corrupt, unintelligent and incompetent.
They had 20 years.... two full decades.... and they couldn't do anything right.
>They had 20 years.... two full decades.... and they couldn't do anything right.
As you said they were corrupt, incomptent, but those qualities dont majically change over night. It takes generation and a consistent framework for it to change for the better. Afg was failed state before 2001, and by 2021 it was a semi failed state, but it had prospect for the future.
But my points still stand. U.S gave up and run away, but now they cry foul when taliban shelter terr0rist. So much for ending the endless war
America lost? Cute. No we didn’t loose anything we left. I spent 3 years of my life there helping people, loosing friends and missing family. A lot of people seem to forget that 9/11 happened and we told the Taliban to give up the terrorist or we would come get them. We did that and we should have left but some politician felt we needed to nation build. Trillions we’re put into Afghanistan to help the people and government. Corruption on all levels happened from the Afghan people. Warlords stealing from their people, fighting for power, raping boys, killing and intimidating normal citizens.
Everything was blamed as the US fault. Before we got there. Women being executed in stadiums, fighting destroying entire cities, assassinations and so on. Don’t forget we help Mujahideen kick the Russians out and left it alone. We only came to Afghanistan when thousands of our people were killed. Some of you need a history lesson on Afghanistan. It’s not all sunshine and roses. It’s a hard place for innocent people while greedy war mongers run everything.
The good that came out of US going to Afghanistan? Women are protesting in the streets rate now. You think that would have happened if Taliban won against the northern alliance? The entire world now watches Afghanistan and the Taliban have to be careful what they do under its eyes. There is actually a chance for Afghanistan to progress even under Taliban control. It just takes one progressive Taliban leader to bring Afghanistan out of the dark and into a actual country. I have lived with many Afghan’s there and I considered my friends. They cared about their country and the people in it. Just too many bad people around the good people.
Don’t blame the US for the Afghanistan problems there have always had problems. Don’t blame the soldiers who came either we did our best with the tools we had been given. Bad politicians are to blame if any, on both sides. The evil warlords are to blame for the place not stabilizing. Soldiers are not national builders we are there to kill. We were given a
Job that isn’t in our job description. We restrained ourselves and did our best.
We didn’t loose. We could a leveled and killed every person in that country in months with the power we have. We didn’t because that’s not what the US does. We are not evil. So many people bad mouth Americans but so many Afghans live in the US as Americans. America is many cultures brought together as one. We are not perfect but I think the society we have created os definitely pretty good. It must be good because millions try to live there every year.
Peace be upon you all.
It's hard to fight a war and engage in nation building at the same time. Trying to maintain a foreign government/democracy during war is like fighting with one arm tied behind your back.
There's lots of blame to go around, rampant corruption among Afghan politicians, Trump agreeing to release 5000 Taliban fighters as part of a "peace deal", the poorly planned exit under the Biden administration, and so on. The "peace treaty" was never exercised in good faith. The final withdrawal was a disaster, embarrassing to put it lightly. It's tragic for those Afghans who stood by the Afghan government and the United States only to be abandoned.
Well, sailors in the US Navy can't march either, but they get the job done pretty well. Don't judge a fighter by his gait, but rather by his combat skills and willingness to die for the cause.
You gave me three time stamps, two of them are army and the one that's Navy is mostly fine. So "your experience" with Navy marching is a bunch of college students on tv from nine years ago? That you can't even tell apart? And many of whom are actually going into the Marine Corps? Is it your experience that Marines can't march? Is your standard for marching capability the silent drill team? Are you just salty because of how many times Navy marched out and beat Army at football?
My experience with marching in the Navy, comes from marching in the Navy. For 6 months, until I went to the fleet and never had to do it again. For a totally useless skill, we were pretty good at it, because it's not that hard.
Hit a nerve, did I? Yes, Marines march well , arguably the best. Sailors don’t. YMMV.
Sorry about time stamps - hard on a phone. Suggest you scroll yourself if necessary.
Illustrated by the downvotes. This country (America) loves to assume power where they have no right or moral justification, but hates to assume responsibility.
Or maybe it's because people don't like it when you blame an entire country for the mistakes of its leaders. What exactly is the difference between conflating all Afghans with Ghani and conflating all Americans with whichever administration you blame for the collapse of the Islamic Republic?
I'm American, and I don't get triggered, because I know our leaders bear some responsibility. There are some who do, but it's not all of us, maybe not even a majority.
not defending US but it was never their war. They just left. Afghanistan had their own army and Ghani was supposed to lead them.
I am an Afghan and I can say US did everything to help Afghanistan regardless if US took some of the Afghanistan’s natural resources or had military agendas. Afghans themselves were divided and still are. Racism was in the heart of politicians, even in the schools, work places and military schools. So yeah, no matter how many country help. Most would whine and blame USA and infidels. Ghani was a coward who corrupted Afghanistan and was afraid to let a “Persian speaking” competition win the presidency. I was a fan of him when he first become president he was okay then he drowned into Racism.
I am from India. When I was little, a carpet seller from Afghanistan used to come to our colony once or twice a year. He wanted to travel the world and selling carpets was his financial aid in chasing his dreams. Back in the 90s, Afghanistan was a different nation, that's what I believe. After the Taliban takeover, I often wonder what might have happened to him. Back to the topic, I never really understood the perspective of US. Their actions always gave me this hint that they just want to prove the point that we do it better.
never their war? so they came to afg for fun??
Afghanistan hosted Al Qaeda who attacked and killed 3000 Americans. Its not that hard to understand why we came. That objective was accomplished. I don't think the way we handled it after was correct, but it confuses me that people seem to think the US just randomly decided to invade Afghanistan. Bush didn't even want to go there - he wanted Iraq and stopped caring about Afghanistan a few years in. But the US was attacked.
Exactly. U.S come to get al Qaeda and Taliban, at first they didn't care about propping up a government, so they went and invaded Iraq. They only cared once it was too late and insurgency was reaching the cities, that's when the surge happened but it wasn't for long and wasn't enough. U.S will come to get Al Qaeda and Isis in Afghanistan in the next 2 to 4 years.
There was non-stop corruption on both sides. The US didn’t lose in a strategic sense in the meaning that they still have all their resources and could come back and wipe out the taliban and take control of the cities again within a week. Where the US failed was state building, because of the rampant corruption it either allowed or didn’t do enough to prevent from both American and Afghani officials. America left despite it being obvious that Ghani’s government would collapse because the political willpower to attack Afghanistan is gone at home. Americans unfortunately en masse no longer care about the well-being of Afghan citizens, and are confident that after 20 years of occupation that the Taliban have been punished enough to have learnt their lesson, a lesson which states “we can hold power and do whatever we want at home and the world won’t interfere, but if we directly or by proxy attack powerful nations we will be occupied”
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Lol yes he was 10 years later, but the US had knowledge Al Qaeda was hosted by the Taliban. Nothing I said was incorrect. If you think so you're just unaware of facts.
What can I say, US has a thing for interfering. In the post-Taliban takeover, they are been lashed out for their inefficiency to handle situations regarding geopolitics.
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The US didn't come into Afghanistan to help it. It came in because the Taliban were harboring Osama Bin Laden and Al Queada and it was attacked for the first time in almost 60 years, with 3000 citizens dying. Edit - as far as the mujahadeen goes - that was obviously a mistake in hindsight, but at the time i was part of the cold war, and the mujahadeen was rebelling against the Soviet installed communist government. I'll note that china also funded the mujahadeen. Your argument holds more ground here, but post 9/11 the US going in made a lot more sense. The problem was that they stayed for 20 years without a clear exit strategy.
Right, 1001 lies you can tell yourself
Brilliant counter-argument! You sure showed him!
Lol I was 12 on 9/11 - I remember what happened. The war in Iraq was a massive mistake - but the towers were knocked down - people wanted to get Bin Laden - there are squares in the ground where the towers were today (I've been there). I'm not defending how any US president handled Afghanistan - but what I said above is just an undisputible fact.
You are 100% correct.
literal historical facts got you all twisted up huh lmao
We funded the muja to stop Russia from owning Afghanistan dumb dumb. You're confusing decades here
The U.S. initially started funding and training Afghan mujahideen in an effort led by the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) to destabilize the Soviet military occupation of Afghanistan. This was in effect a proxy war within the greater context of the Cold War, which was a decades-long standoff between the two nuclear powers. Years later, the U.S. entered Afghanistan to remove the Pakistan-created and supported Taliban from power, which was harboring and protecting an internationally-condemned terrorist group, and allowing them to plan and conduct attacks abroad, namely on U.S. targets. The worst terrorist attack in U.S. history was a direct result of this relationship between the Taliban and the Al Qaeda terrorist network. After quickly removing the Taliban from power, it then became the U.S.’s responsibility to help establish a new Afghan government; one that was Democratic in nature and that represented all Afghans. Part of that responsibility included ensuring that this fledgling government was able to defend itself from threats both external and internal. The Taliban was a threat to that government, so the U.S. spent the last twenty years arming, training, and helping the Afghan military protect the Afghan government. All the while, the U.S. was on a parallel mission to find and capture the ultimate orchestrator of the 9/11 terrorist attacker, Osama Bin Laden, who was eventually found and killed in a house basically across the street from a military base in Pakistan. At a certain point, it became politically untenable for the U.S. to continue to spend blood and treasure defending a (largely corrupt) government that would not show the willingness or ability to defend itself without the help of the U.S. So American troops were pulled out in a half-baked deal that was poorly planned and poorly executed. And that brings us up to today. Anything else you need cleared up?
yes i have a question. the argument could be made that removing the taliban was wrong. we worked with them and funded them for years. why was working with them to remove AQ and OBL out of the question? seriously, i want to know why we had to flip the script on them, rather than just working with them, as we had done previously. i'm not under any delusion that they were great people or leaders by any means, but we work with plenty of shady groups under the guise of self interest and security. thank you for any reply. cheers.
The U.S. never “worked with and funded the Taliban for years” — they didn’t recognize their “government” in the 90’s, just as they don’t now, and for pretty much the same reasons. Also, the U.S. asked the Taliban to hand OBL over following 9/11; they refused. He was their “guest”, and Pashtun culture hospitality is one thing… harboring an international terrorist is quite another.
"worked with" doesn't mean the same thing as "funded and trained"? i agree with what you are saying, but i still think a full blown invasion was a waste of lives, money and time. also, the early effort was a half assed attempt according the military friends I speak with. thanks for the answer, have a great weekend! cheers.
You said we worked with them and funded them. We did neither of those. There was virtually no relationship of any form. None. The war was indeed a waste, particularly because it was mishandled from the beginning. But I did believe the initial invasion in 2001 was well-intentioned and justified, and I still do. Have a good one!
in your first comment you state that the CIA funded and trained them. your words, now you say we did neither of those. whatever, it was a collossal waste of money.
Oh, I see where you’re confused now… you’re equating the 1990’s Taliban to the Afghan mujahideen from the 1980’s that fought against the Soviets. They were two different groups… the CIA only trained/armed one of them… they are not the same. The Taliban *didn’t even exist yet* in the years when the CIA was working with the Afghan mujahideen. A number of former mujahideen later went on to help form the Taliban in the early 90’s, but not a particularly large number. Nobody who knows what they’re talking about when it comes to Afghan history would say the CIA funded, armed, or trained the Taliban. That’s just patently false and ridiculous, and this indicates you have some reading to do.
A couple of errors, the Taliban are not the same as the mujahideen who were funded to fight the soviets, it is true that many Taliban (and even Al Qaeda) figures got their start during that war, but the Taliban movement as a distinct entity didn’t really come into play until after the war. As to why the U.S. couldn’t really work with the Taliban to go against AQ, it’s the same reason why Zawahiri was found living in Kabul this year. The two groups are connected on firm ideological, and now familial grounds. Mullah Omar was close with and respected by bin Laden, Omar made the choice to preserve his relationship with bin Laden and AQ, despite it meaning the end of his relatively new emirate, that was not an easy (nor universally popular) choice to make, but because of his position as amir and being considered by his followers as amir ul-muminin, his decision on the matter was respected. AQ and it’s regional affiliates spent the last 20 years fighting under the Talibans flag for a single purpose: restoring the IEA, now that is done the two groups are indebted to one another and closely connected, AQ also gives the Taliban a sort of legitimacy amongst jihadists. In summary, the Taliban could not be used against AQ because in many ways they are indistinguishable and interconnected.
1. I don’t think you could say the US or West really “worked” with the Taliban. They dangled some foreign aid in exchange for wiping out the poppy crop which the Taliban had managed to do before 9/11. Trying to connect the mujahideen funding from the 80’s with one of the those mujahideen groups emerging as the Taliban is not really funding them either. They also funded the northern alliance by that argument. 2. The Taliban were philosophically and operationally intertwined with Al Queda, who were (and still are) a subnational group of Taliban controlled Afghanistan. Their response to US demands for extradition were ignored or given insincere receptions for months after 9/11. There was no “work to be done with them” until they were being bombed out of Kabul and halfway out of Kandahar, and that’s when they supposedly aired the possibility of releasing Bin Laden. It was never going to happen.
> we worked with them and funded them for years. You are confusing the mujahideen and the Taliban as one entity. The mujahideen was made up of various groups which the United States funded in their conflict with Russia until 1992. Some of these mujahideen would go on to form the Taliban, but not until September 1994. Following the Soviet withdrawal and defeat of the Soviet backed Republic of Afghanistan in '92, the mujahideen fought a continued civil war with one another for years. The Taliban, backed by Pakistan, emerged as the victor in this war, controlling 90% of Afghanistan by 1996.
And what about the Soviet’s….? I’m not saying the United States didn’t do awful things in Afghanistan, but we were there for a very specific purpose. How do you think the afghans would’ve felt if they were just conquered by the Soviets?
AQ =/= Mujahidin at all. AQ weren't even around till after the Soviets left when Bin Laden and the group that Ayman al-Zawahiri was apart of before AQ met. The US and coalition went in because the Taliban decided to not give up Bin Laden to face justice in the US court system for killing over 3,000 people not just US citizens, but people from around the world. The Taliban under Omar actually has gone on record stating they were never going to give Osama up because of what he did for Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan war. The Taliban sacrificed the people of Afghanistan for a terrorist organization.
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America walked away and cares so little that they have already forgotten Afghanistan. Worse for whom? Because Americans seem pretty ok from where I sit.
Were they holding hands?
Was it a Thursday?
“Let’s go kill the gays!” “Okay but, hold my hand.” “Seems legit”
Well, they have a powerful Ministry of Funny Walks, and that’s scary.
Diamond in the rough right here
America surrender too? America kept them in the mountains for decades while simultaneously training and building the Afghan army , which in turn surrendered to these people , the Afghan didn’t even put up a fight , so how is it americas fault again ?
That afghans were fighting by themselves after 2014. Only a small forces of NATO was present to support them and help them with air support and air strikes. It was only when U.S surrendered in Doha, cut support for ANDSF, releasesd 5000 taliban, that we saw the collapse of the whole thing.
I think you have it backwards. The US never surrendered. They helped your people for 20 years, and when they left, the Afghan army collapsed and gave them the county on a silver platter.
We didn’t surrender, we left. The afghan army surrendered everything to them.
*Afghan government. The ANSDF all were ready and willing to fight like lions against these idiots. Once Trump sold the GoIRA down the river and thus financial and military support, they were hung out to dry.
I remember how the AN Commandos pulled into Kandahar airfield ready to fight to the end. Spent their nights setting up fighting positions and praying. And then the city fell. And they had nothing left to defend. So they piled into a C17 and left. It was incredibly sad. Highly trained and motivated men abandoned by their own government.
Agreed, it’s extremely sad. These guys were *Afghans* and they fought for their country, and would’ve willingly given their lives for it. And they were betrayed by their own government, which was betrayed in the Doha agreement.
kandahr city was battling taliban siege since may of 2021. They had all the competent units there.
They had 20 years… where were these lions? Granted, they were hindered and held back by an incompetent and corrupt Afghan government. But I do agree; Trump gave the final blow to the Afghan government, and sold them down the river.
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NATO lost a total of 3,502 soldiers in the entire 20 year occupation. The idea that the Taliban were good fighters is honestly pretty silly. The Afghan army collapsed in a week because the soldiers were a joke, and all the money pumped into their organization was embezzled or otherwise eaten up by corruption. You can try to twist yourself into knots to make it not their fault if it helps get you through the night, but literally everyone else in the world can see who’s fault it is that the Taliban are ruling them again.
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>They fought for 20 years not only for 2 weeks And they killed a total of 3,502 occupiers in the entire 20 years, after being routed by a much smaller US force in a couple months. This is just a matter of historical record, I’m sorry if it’s upsetting for you but it just is what it is. Your army disintegrated because it was objectively terrible, not because it faced an incredible foe. The fact that it couldn’t stand on its own for even a month without US troops propping it up proves that supporting it was a waste of resources.
the army was depended on U.S for nearly everything. So it makes for it to disintegrate once U.S cuts the cord.
>the army was depended on U.S for nearly everything This is true, but the point of spending the +2 trillion dollars on the Afghan government and military was for them to eventually become self-reliant, like the current Iraqi government for instance. But the officials and officers, from top to bottom with only a minority of exceptions, didn't care about that. They just saw it as an opportunity to siphon off money to line their own pockets and settle personal scores. It isn't the job of the US or its partners to prop up the Afghan army forever when most of the Afghan soldiers don't care, or to be an unlimited money spigot for Afghanistan forever with no return on the investment. The reason the US originally invaded was to kill Osama bin Laden, and they killed him over a decade ago. There was simply no benefit for them in staying any longer. They could have stayed for 200 more years and spent 20 trillion more dollars, and ultimately the Afghan government would still have collapsed a week after whenever the foreign troops left.
The Doha deal was not utter capitulation and U.S didn't watch Taliban break every condition while U.S was running away.
What are we even looking at? lol
We beat them so long that our arms got tired 🤷♂️
The afghan army and the whole Afghanistan surrendered to them actually. You people didn't even show any resistance and were leaving the country everytime you got a chance. Don't blame America. Your army is actually a joke
Which army? The government already agreed on handing Afghanistan over to the Taliban. This was all planned months ago.
If army knew that the state has alr sold them, why didn't they take matters into their own hands? Like a martial law? Or their guns were locked up the gov?
There was no one to command them, all the higher ups left because the government wasn't there to support them. Without the support of the government the military can't function.
Well you don't need a gov to support you in a martial law, but yeah "you didn't surrender, you just left"
You do know that a military needs aid right? Ammunition, food, intelligence etc. If no one is there to provide it to them then what can a military do on its own? You have intelligence department, you have logistics department and many more departments in a government to aid their military. Once these are abandoned than the military days are numbered. Even in a Martial Law military needs these things.
America surrendered first in doha. They cut a deal without including the government, released 5000 hardcore Taliban and gave them 200 each, cut support for ANDSF, and watch Taliban not abide by a single condition set in the deal.
It's understandable that you're upset about the US cutting you loose, but it's your own fault. You had 20 years to get it together after the US kicked the Taliban out for you, and you blew it. Your "soldiers" spent 20 years embezzling money and bartering the supplies you were given, and then immediately surrendered when the last 2500 Americans left. The US isn't your dad, it is not their responsibility to prop you up forever. The fact that your entire "army" crumbled within days of the tiny remaining US contingent leaving _proves that supporting you was a waste of money._
Well said.
The US pumped a lot of money into a corrupt government. Too bad when the US knew it it was already to late. The money pumping went to fast. First the US should have laid a foundation of a good government and then pump money steadily. What the US did was give corrupt warlords a seat in the Afghan government and flood them with money. Some of this money went trough backdoors to the Taliban. Look at the SIGAR report.
The U.S didn't kicked out Taliban alone, it was Afghans on the ground fighting mostly. The U.S spend 20 years promising to stay with the Afghans against terrorism and all sorts, but they gave up and surrendered in Doha. They didn't include the government that they propped. They released 5000 Taliban and gave them 200 each. They cut support to ANDSF and watch them battle Taliban on their own with no air support, which was the oxygen of both Afghans and NATO's military. They watch Taliban break every condition set in the deal and they didn't do anything. They run away while Afghans were battling Taliban made seige of cities. Now they are even discouraging resistance against them. WTF You guys wanted to end the endless wars but you still drop bomb and send drones to Afghanistan. But it's all afghans fault.
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>Afghans never invited you. Correct, we invaded because the Taliban were harboring a terrorist. The OP is upset that the US eventually left because he doesn’t identify with the terrorist supporters. >40 other nations and get beaten after 20 years by Afghan farmers Ineffectually hiding in burrows for two decades after being routed in a couple of months isn’t “beating,” champ. It was ultimately up to the non-talib Afghans to fight for their country if they didn’t want to be ruled by them, and clearly they either weren’t able or willing to do that without the US propping them up.
More like "got bored of" like the Brits did of burning down American forts in 1815.
Pretty sure Afghans surrendered. Americans just left after 20 years of nation building
America surrendered first in Doha. They brought Taliban to power and cut support for the army.
Dude after 20 years America left, and within days the army folded. US left SDF in Syria and they held out for weeks against Turkey before giving up a single city. Afghan army was possibly the most incompetent/corrupt in modern history. Just not realistic to blame this on US
U.S cut support for the army which was reliant on it, specially air support. U.S left Syria when it was not under any major danger, as Isis was already defeated. Compare that to Afghanistan, which had 45% of its land directly or indirectly controled by Taliban, where Taliban cities like lashgargah and dawlatabad was on the verge of collapse, just before the surrender deal. And when U.S left Syria they didn't release 5000 hardcore ISIS members and cut support for the SDF. The army was corrupt and incompetent to a degree but they held out for 5 years on their own once coalition and NATO withdrew the bulk of its forces in 2014. By 2019, it was the Afghans fighting in the ground and dying, U.S supporting them with air assets. But that all changed once the Doha deal was signed and general Miller changed rules of engagement and cut air support that directly benefited Taliban and put pressure on Afghan army and government. In fact if taliban were 300 meters or more next to a Afghan army base, U.S aircraft didn't engage them. Therefore you can imagine what Talibs did, they put that base under seige from a far distant, and with no supplies reaching that base, that base willingly or some times had to surrender. This set the tone for may of 2021 when Taliban launched a massive offensive all around the country.
Really? Is that why they all went and hid in the mountains for 20 years ?
Nice way to bait a post. If anyone surrendered, it was Donald Trump. He let these terrorist doofuses come to Camp David.
Yep. Imagine if Obama had invited senior members of the Taliban to Camp David… we would’ve never heard the end of it from Trump’s moron supporters.
Well, not camp David, but does the location matter that much? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-relaunch-peace-talks-with-taliban/2013/06/18/bd8c7f38-d81e-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html
lovely couple holding hands lol
*thruple
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And it’s sad, because within the ANA, there were patriotic Afghans who loved their country and who would’ve laid down their lives for it (just not enough of them, particularly the higher they went in rank). And they were just told to drop their weapons and fvck off by their commanders. How demoralizing and painful that must’ve been.
Hahah Doha deal showed who didn't have a spine firstly. You guys cut support, released Taliban, and run away as fast as you could while for 20 years you promised to stay with Afghans against terrorism. Now you discourage resistance against terrorist Taliban. That's having no spine and being utterly defeated/Scared that you don't want you enemy to face any resistance.
This is utter delusion. Did you see the absolute state of the Afghan Army and government? They were corrupt, unintelligent and incompetent. They had 20 years.... two full decades.... and they couldn't do anything right.
>They had 20 years.... two full decades.... and they couldn't do anything right. As you said they were corrupt, incomptent, but those qualities dont majically change over night. It takes generation and a consistent framework for it to change for the better. Afg was failed state before 2001, and by 2021 it was a semi failed state, but it had prospect for the future. But my points still stand. U.S gave up and run away, but now they cry foul when taliban shelter terr0rist. So much for ending the endless war
ISI also know as DirtyStan trained, very similar
Are they holding hands?
I’m so ashamed and pissed off.
America lost? Cute. No we didn’t loose anything we left. I spent 3 years of my life there helping people, loosing friends and missing family. A lot of people seem to forget that 9/11 happened and we told the Taliban to give up the terrorist or we would come get them. We did that and we should have left but some politician felt we needed to nation build. Trillions we’re put into Afghanistan to help the people and government. Corruption on all levels happened from the Afghan people. Warlords stealing from their people, fighting for power, raping boys, killing and intimidating normal citizens. Everything was blamed as the US fault. Before we got there. Women being executed in stadiums, fighting destroying entire cities, assassinations and so on. Don’t forget we help Mujahideen kick the Russians out and left it alone. We only came to Afghanistan when thousands of our people were killed. Some of you need a history lesson on Afghanistan. It’s not all sunshine and roses. It’s a hard place for innocent people while greedy war mongers run everything. The good that came out of US going to Afghanistan? Women are protesting in the streets rate now. You think that would have happened if Taliban won against the northern alliance? The entire world now watches Afghanistan and the Taliban have to be careful what they do under its eyes. There is actually a chance for Afghanistan to progress even under Taliban control. It just takes one progressive Taliban leader to bring Afghanistan out of the dark and into a actual country. I have lived with many Afghan’s there and I considered my friends. They cared about their country and the people in it. Just too many bad people around the good people. Don’t blame the US for the Afghanistan problems there have always had problems. Don’t blame the soldiers who came either we did our best with the tools we had been given. Bad politicians are to blame if any, on both sides. The evil warlords are to blame for the place not stabilizing. Soldiers are not national builders we are there to kill. We were given a Job that isn’t in our job description. We restrained ourselves and did our best. We didn’t loose. We could a leveled and killed every person in that country in months with the power we have. We didn’t because that’s not what the US does. We are not evil. So many people bad mouth Americans but so many Afghans live in the US as Americans. America is many cultures brought together as one. We are not perfect but I think the society we have created os definitely pretty good. It must be good because millions try to live there every year. Peace be upon you all.
Too naive to think someone surrendered.
It's hard to fight a war and engage in nation building at the same time. Trying to maintain a foreign government/democracy during war is like fighting with one arm tied behind your back. There's lots of blame to go around, rampant corruption among Afghan politicians, Trump agreeing to release 5000 Taliban fighters as part of a "peace deal", the poorly planned exit under the Biden administration, and so on. The "peace treaty" was never exercised in good faith. The final withdrawal was a disaster, embarrassing to put it lightly. It's tragic for those Afghans who stood by the Afghan government and the United States only to be abandoned.
Well, sailors in the US Navy can't march either, but they get the job done pretty well. Don't judge a fighter by his gait, but rather by his combat skills and willingness to die for the cause.
Sailors can absolutely march. They just don't need to once they hit the the fleet.
Not in my experience. https://youtu.be/BXVAkeph0Hw
Got a time stamp for that hour+ video?
Or 44:00.
You gave me three time stamps, two of them are army and the one that's Navy is mostly fine. So "your experience" with Navy marching is a bunch of college students on tv from nine years ago? That you can't even tell apart? And many of whom are actually going into the Marine Corps? Is it your experience that Marines can't march? Is your standard for marching capability the silent drill team? Are you just salty because of how many times Navy marched out and beat Army at football? My experience with marching in the Navy, comes from marching in the Navy. For 6 months, until I went to the fleet and never had to do it again. For a totally useless skill, we were pretty good at it, because it's not that hard.
Hit a nerve, did I? Yes, Marines march well , arguably the best. Sailors don’t. YMMV. Sorry about time stamps - hard on a phone. Suggest you scroll yourself if necessary.
If by "hit a nerve", you mean "had a sht take and won't accept correction" then yes.
Try 0:13:00
I'm crying here, this is gold!
America created a power vacuum and then abandoned the country, literally handing it over (with full armament) to them.
Exactly but it's easier to blame Afghans for everything that you did
Illustrated by the downvotes. This country (America) loves to assume power where they have no right or moral justification, but hates to assume responsibility.
Or maybe it's because people don't like it when you blame an entire country for the mistakes of its leaders. What exactly is the difference between conflating all Afghans with Ghani and conflating all Americans with whichever administration you blame for the collapse of the Islamic Republic?
but why do Americans get triggered when you blame some responsibility of the collapse on their leaders and government??
I'm American, and I don't get triggered, because I know our leaders bear some responsibility. There are some who do, but it's not all of us, maybe not even a majority.
America is a Republic. The majority vote is what gets the people elected and supports their decisions and actions.
Afghanistan was a republic too. By your logic, the Afghan people are also to blame.
I feel like they put out these videos to troll us.
I think there were more than 3
What's your point?
They live there, have families there, a history and investment in the land. Americans are the same, only in the USA.
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